Kenosha Shooting

Everybody Is Losing Their Damn Fool Minds

The Reason Roundtable spits fire at street violence, poison politics, and the nationalization of every local story.


The next two months are going to be dark, people. Good luck finding a corner of American life that won't be co-opted into the great national binary of Donald Trump vs. Joe Biden, a struggle (we'll be told) where civilization itself hangs in the balance. People you once found sane will show up in your driveway, eyes bulging like Marty Feldman's, ranting about the dark forces on the verge of unleashing a thousand-year reign of terror. It's guns and guillotines all the way down.

Or maybe not? Today's Reason Roundtable podcast, featuring Nick Gillespie, Peter Suderman, Matt Welch, and Katherine Mangu-Ward, ping-pongs between pessimism and psychotic breaks, as the gang discusses Portland, Kenosha, Minneapolis, Trump, Biden, the RNC, the DNC, federalism, media, coronavirus, basketball, and modern love, more or less in that order.

Audio production by Ian Keyser and Regan Taylor.

Music: "Night Driver" by The Whole Other.

Relevant links from the show:

"How Portland's Protests Drifted into 'Dangerous Territory,'" by Nick Gillespie

"When You Say Yes to Hate: Dispatch From Portland," by Nancy Rommelmann

"Protesters Tell Rand Paul, Who Wrote the Justice for Breonna Taylor Act, To Say Breonna Taylor's Name," by Robby Soave

"Trump Authorizes Deployment of 2,000 National Guard Troops to Kenosha," by Christian Britschgi

"Kenosha Doesn't Have To Be a Vision of America's Future," by J.D. Tuccille

"Qualified Immunity Is a Disgrace, No Matter Where You Live," by Billy Binion

"Bourgeois Libertarianism Can Save America," by Brian Doherty

"Nixon May Be Trump's 'Law and Order' Model, but He Was Smarter on Crime," by Jacob Sullum

"Trump Warns America: 'Biden's America' Will Look Like Trump's America," by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"In Convention Speech, Pence Warns: 'You Won't Be Safe In Joe Biden's America,'" by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"The Shaky Foundation of Trump's Pose As a Criminal Justice Reformer," by Jacob Sullum

"Remember When a Democratic Polling Firm Fired the Guy Who Thought Violent Protests Could Backfire Politically?" by Robby Soave

"NBA, MLB Games Postponed as Players Protest Jacob Blake Shooting," by Eric Boehm

"Trump Promotes the Outlandish Claim That COVID-19 Has Killed a 'Minuscule' Number of Americans," by Jacob Sullum

"Could the COVID-19 Epidemic Fade This Fall Without New Lockdowns?" by Ronald Bailey

"CDC Issues New Guidelines That Discourage COVID-19 Diagnostic Testing," by Ronald Bailey

"A Summer Without Summer Movies," by Peter Suderman

"Prepare Yourselves Now for a Miserable Fall Television Rollout," by Glenn Garvin

NEXT: Nancy Rommelmann: The Disturbing Drift of the Portland Protests

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Everybody Is Losing Their Damn Fool Minds

    When the hell did this happen?

    1. Right around the time The Bee Gees came along. Somehow nothing has been the same ever since.

      1. Since then we've all just been Staying Alive.

        1. Stop it with all of the Jive Taking.

          1. What's happening out there is a Tragedy.

            1. That's why I just keep Shadow Dancing

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            2. You've got to cure these kids of their Night Fever.

              1. You'll need More than a Woman for that ...

                1. That's love so right.

                  1. "Washington DC Election Disaster 2020" should top the charts.

          2. Excuse me, John.
            I speak jive

            1. lay 'em down and smack 'em yak 'em

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    2. Having traduced the First Amendment, the Vancel Culture was bound to discover the Second Amendment sooner or later.

    3. First of all Black Lives Matter pilfered the the Bureau of Land Management's initials. That's a real crisis, Seriously we've never had an election that supposedly matters so much with two candidates who are so weak. Whateve happens to the Country after November is anyone'as guess,but it won't be either of them who is in control.

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  2. Well, not EVERY local story. Only ones that fit a certain profile.

  3. I don't recall reason having a problem with the Trayvon Martin story being localized, nor the shooting in Feguson, Missouri. In fact, reason's entire fucking MO is to try and nationalize every local story of police misconduct.

    Not to say that that is wrong. It isn't. Reason believes in the need for police reform and feels bringing local stories of police misconduct to national attention will help that cause. And they are right and are not wrong to do it.

    What is, wrong, however, is for reason to now decide that it doesn't like local stories being national. Bullshit. You liked those rules when it works for you, you can't suddenly act like things are different when it works against you.

    1. Were they complaining about this being nationalized somewhere?

      1. Sure I was. I have always thought making local stories national was stupid. Even if I didn't, that doesn't make reason's stance here any less hypocritical.

        1. No, I was asking where they were complaining about this. I see it is in the lede of the story now.

          I read the blurb, where they seem to be talking less about nationalization so much as the hyperbolizing of every story.

          Honestly, they have a super TERRIBLE person writing their headlines and lede- and I can only assume that it is ENB because they almost always take the most anti-conservative interpretation of the article.

  4. FYI wanted to comment on the Rommelmann post this AM, but was too busy with work.

    The Duran has a great podcast on this subject, the British half who studied in Russia drew a lot of parallels to the violent Russian Revolution in how the intelligentsia supported the violence in the streets, believe they'd be able to control the violence, but never really had control over it so it inevitably turned on them.

    The fact that Democrats have started (fucking barely started) to speak up about this tells us that the Democrats, the media and the local mayors and governors thought they could control it- ie, push the button to turn it off when the time came-- but it's clear they've lost control of it. They can't "pick up a phone" and call Antifa and tell them to stop. This violent movement, like most violent movements eventually take on their own momentum. The Democrats aren't in control of it, because it's a movement that's as much against them as it is Trump.

    The media has been utterly shameless in its attempt to provide cover for the violence. There was a shameless and infuriating article in my local daily which pretty much cemented my vote in November. They actually had the temerity to refer to the rioters in portland as a "counter protest" against a small group of Patriot Prayer members who had been in Portland for "three Saturdays in a row". You don't have vocally support either side, but there's no way you'd characterize the BLM/ANTIFA rioters as a 'counter protest'. It is the established movement on the streets of Portland, so anyone who shows up in opposition is the counter protest.

    I think the iconic image of the year will be the Marquee sign in flames that read "BLACK LIVES MATTER".

    1. They had the big BLM march in Washington last weekend. As recently as two weeks ago, they were anticipating 100,000 marchers. They actually got just over 7,000. The media covered this up by using the headline "thousands march" without actually giving a number.

      If the national BLM march at the Lincoln Memorial done on the anniversary of the MLK I have a dream speech, can't draw 10,000, I think it is safe to say that BLM is a dumpster fire right now. Democrats won't say it, but they want BLM and Antifa to just go away. As you explain, that isn't going to happen.

      1. BLM as an organization is no longer in control. But the protest has their name on it, and that's what's causing them damage. If someone is screeching BLACK LIVES MATTER while they run a burning dumpster into a set of gas pumps at the AM/PM, then its up to the organization to get out ahead of that and disassociate itself with that behavior.

        There's a video clip going around with a guy yelling at the rioters through his smashed storefront, telling the crowd he's got kids to feed. A woman shouts back, "they don't represent out movement". He says to her, "Well, I'm sorry but... they're with you, so..." and she has no response back. That summed it up for me nicely. Yeah, somewhere in the back of the crowd, there's a small percentage who are engaging in peaceful protest, but they're surrounded by violent thugs. As I said when this whole thing started, you either walk away at that point, or make real efforts to shut that behavior down in your midst. I got taken to task for that... whatever, have fun with your violent protest.

        1. Well if that crowd that was anticipated to be 100,000 turning out to be only 7,000 is anything to go by. It seems that's exactly what people are beginning to do. Not show up.

          1. To get 100,000 people to show up, you need regular Americans to be deeply committed to a cause. Had this protest occurred six weeks ago, they might have drawn a much higher number. But BLM's name has gone to shit because of all the activity that's being associated with them. Plus, people are beginning to look at BLM as the Organization, not the Slogan. Now that people are seeing them as an Organization, people have become uncomfortable with a movement that wants to destroy the nuclear family, forcibly redistribute wealth and eliminate international borders. The general public is now on to BLM and what it really stands for.

            1. Plus, people are beginning to look at BLM as the Organization, not the Slogan.


              In the conversations I've had with people I know this is what I focus on. Hey, I know you want to stick up for people who were victimized, but you should know what the group actually stands for. As a result, I've changed at least a couple of minds.

              Although I think it's misguided, I can overlook it if people want to say the slogan or believe that there is rampant racism. But they should know they should know that it's all being used as leverage to achieve communism. Many of the times they just became aware of it from FB and now have an incredibly superficial understanding.

            2. Plus, people are beginning to look at BLM as the Organization, not the Slogan.

              Is this why I'm hearing people talking about "Black Lives *Matters*"?

              1. No, that's a longstanding mispronunciation, going back to pretty much the first appearance of the group/slogan

                1. There are some real BLM cultists out there. I posted something yesterday that was slightly negative towards them on a fb group and the lunies came out. Immediately, I am a racist., etc because I insulted their cult. No rationality. I asked one to name (1) thing that BLM had made better. Recieved an FU back. Their nastiness said it all. I got one that said we all need to "Infuse" ourselves in blackness... What kooks.

                  1. BLM is a Marxist organization hiding behind black lives. If you're not a Marxist , you don't really want to back this organization. If you are a Marxist be honest about it. But I know, Marxists aren't honest. Honesty is anathema to Marxism.

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        2. There needs to be a new word for protests that, at their best, are only technically legal. The media does a good job of using "protest" to evoke thousands of pussy hatted wine aunts when there's a feral mob of lunatics roaming through town.

    2. I've been reviewing 2016 and 17 to get a sense of how we've ended up here. The most striking thing to me is how AFAICT zero mainstream Republicans and only a couple conservatives ever defended the NYC Proud Boys, Charlottesville, etc. Romney and Rubio even explicitly praised antifa. Of course the left deserves the blame, but c'mon man, that's who they are. The right are supposed to be for law and order and to the extent they said anything at all, it was in favor of an-com rioters.

      1. Both the center left and the center right completely rolled over to Antifa and the hard left. Places like Keonosha and Portland are now paying the price for that.

    3. "They actually had the temerity to refer to the rioters in portland as a “counter protest” against a small group of Patriot Prayer members who had been in Portland for “three Saturdays in a row”.

      Not everything we read on Wikipedia is true, but the Wiki on Patriot Prayer says they were basically founded and based in Portland.

      Vancouver, Washington is across the river from Portland. It's like Staten Island to Brooklyn only more so. This doesn't sound like an invading force of Neo-Nazis.

      Why are they telling us that they were in Portland "three Saturdays in a row" when Portland is their hometown?

      1. Here's a description of his supposedly horrifying views:

        "Gibson supports a pathway to citizenship for non-criminal illegal immigrants. He supports decriminalization of marijuana, and same-sex marriage.[37] Gibson advocates for establishment of term limits for the U.S. Congress, implementation of a national sales tax, and abolition of the Internal Revenue Service.[13] He opposes what he describes as undue influence of the pharmaceutical industry on healthcare in the United States.[32]


        If those are radical positions, what are we?

          1. 4th century invaders of Western Rome or depressed high school kids?

            1. Depends on the situation

      2. because showing up 3 Saturdays in a row means you're a pest, but showing up 3 months in a row means you're part of the culture?

  5. "...the nationalization of every local story."

    This morning I get up and go outside, only to discover that someone somewhere nearby ran over a skunk, or agitated a skunk, or some such... Smelled B_A_D BAD!!!

    So is this to be blamed on Trump, or Biden?

    Inquiring minds want to KNOW, dammit!!!

    1. If Biden's campaign staff were paying people to run over skunks, you could blame him just like you can blame him for the riots because his staff is paying to bail out the rioters.

        1. the fact that she is now attempting to pretend she was against all of this violence, and looting, and arson, and destruction from the get go is an insulting joke.

          "*** laughs *** Oh, it's just politics."

          1. You forgot the word maniacally.

    2. Blame it on Jeff. It's always his fault.

      1. Jeff sock or funny bot?

        1. How about a funny sock that slipped off a bot.

          I would have referenced Nikki, but she is long gone.

  6. the nationalization of every local story.

    Didn't Reason (Balko) invent this, at least on the internet?

    1. I am not sure if they invented it, but their claim to be against it is a bit rich.

  7. No need to defame Marty Feldman.

    The intensified mostly peaceful protesters are all Abby Normal on their own.

    1. I remember a mostly peaceful day of air travel back in sep of 2001

  8. It's becoming ever so clear that the U.S. backed government in Kabul is doing pretty much everything it can to put off peace negotiations with the Taliban until after the U.S. election--in the hope that Joe Biden will be elected and they can get out of the peace plan Trump negotiated.

    The latest maneuver has the Kabul government appointing a council to approve or reject whatever peace deal the negotiators come up with in Qatar. They're selling this as a means to peace--as if they now have the council in place to approve a peace deal. I don't think that's what it is at all.

    They already have a separate negotiating team meeting with the Taliban in Qatar. If the team doing the negotiating doesn't have the authority to actually approve the deal, then their negotiating power is nothing. This is why foreign governments, for instance, typically insist on Congress giving the President fast track authority to vote up or down on a trade deal before they're willing to negotiate. If the person doing the negotiating has little or no authority to actually approve the deal, then the people he's negotiating with have no incentive to accept any concessions that aren't binding.

    If the concessions and promises you make as a negotiator mean nothing until one hundred senators, that aren't even a part of the negotiations, have their say, then I'm not taking any of your concessions or promises seriously. That's what the Kabul government just inflicted on these peace talks--the extreme unlikelihood that the negotiations in Qatar will be able to reach a peace deal.

    The reason the government in Kabul is undermining these negotiations is because they know that as soon as the United States leaves, they'll be more or less at the mercy of the Taliban. They have every incentive to undermine the peace process between the U.S. and the Taliban every step of the way and hope that Biden will be less inclined to leave Afghanistan to the mercy of the Taliban. The Kabul government is basically in a position where they're being required to negotiate the means of their own destruction.

    They'd rather delay, delay, delay, and throw monkey wrenches into the peace process--and hope that Trump loses.

    Which is another way of saying, if you want to see the U.S. withdraw completely from Afghanistan, you better hope Trump emerges from the dumpster fire as president. When he's talking about America First, this is exactly what he's talking about. What's in the best interests of the Kurds doesn't determine whether we go to war in Syria. Wars should at the very least only be entered into when they're in the best interests of the United States.

    Whether we leave Afghanistan shouldn't depend on what's in the best interests of the U.S. backed government in Kabul either. It should depend on whether staying is in the best interests of the United States, and if Trump is reelected, we will probably be out of Afghanistan by the end of April. If Biden is elected, all bets are off.

  9. Didn't robbie tweet out Peaceful Protest just last Thursday?

    1. Maybe we pay more attention to what he writes than they do.

    2. Not mutually exclusive. As CNN shows, protests can be fiery and peaceful at the same time.

      1. CNN France, July 14, 1789: Mostly peaceful protesters demonstrate against economic disparity.

        CNN Russia, October 25, 1917: Mostly peaceful protesters demonstrate against controversial election results and ineffective government leadership.

        CNN Germany, November 10, 1938: Mostly peaceful protesters demonstrate against capitalist excesses and racial inequality.

        1. The Kristallnacht was peaceful and not peaceful at the same time.

          1. A smashing success for peaceful protests?

  10. Of all the things I ever lost, I miss my mind the most - - - - - - - - -

  11. By the way, Reason might help the situation by clarifying the differences between the Democrat and the Republican rather than try to paint them with the same brush--because neither is libertarian.

    What's the difference between Biden and Trump on the Green New Deal?

    What's the difference between Biden and Trump on bailing out the states to the tune of trillions of dollars?

    What's the difference between Biden and Trump on withdrawing from Afghanistan?

    What's the difference between Biden and Trump on our Second Amendment rights?

    Differentiating them on the issues is helpful. Conflating them when there are significant differences between them isn't helpful at all.

    1. What’s the difference between Biden and Trump on open borders?

      What’s the difference between Biden and Trump on slave labor in China?

      These two issues are more important to most of Reason than all of the issues you mentioned, combined.

      1. Although I think you're loading the question about "slave" labor--there probably isn't much of a difference between Biden and Trump on trade with China. Neither one of them seems to think individual American consumers should be free to answer these kinds of moral questions for themselves--when they choose to shop at Wal*mart (or not).

        There isn't much of a difference between Biden and Trump on open borders either--although if Biden were elected, DACA would almost certainly be reinstated and Trump's challenge to the constitutionality of DACA would disappear completely. President Trump's safe third country agreements with El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras would probably go away, too, if Biden were elected.

        The point is that there are significant differences between the two candidates on issues that are important to libertarians.

        If opposing the socialism of the Green New Deal, not squandering $1 trillion on bailing out the pension systems of California, Illinois, and New York, getting out of Afghanistan completely, support for our Second Amendment rights, and support for immigration are important issues for libertarians in a symbolic way, then voting Libertarian or refusing to grace this election with your vote is one way to express your symbolic opposition or support.

        Voting for Biden or Trump, on the other hand, will have a real impact on these issues in the real world. If Trump is elected, there won't be a Green New Deal or a $1 trillion bailout of the states in reality and if Biden is elected we'll probably see both in reality. Papering over the differences in reality is ignoring reality.

  12. This can all be summed up in a t-shirt I saw at a gaming convention:
    "Keep calm, and fix bayonets"

  13. Am I the only one who hopes in vain that someday these will be video podcasts?

    1. Honestly it's possible.

  14. Hmm, let's see, I believe it began with the left asking Donald Trump if he would step down when he lost and recognize the election and then...he didn't lose. Commence with 4 years of hysteria, bed wetting, terrorism, treason and general stupidity along with not accepting the election results.
    Now we are on the cusp of another election, who do we trust? The guy who created the lowest unemployment since numbers were kept or the kids who burned blue cities into stink holes?

    You're going to lose, we're just marking time till Nov. 4th

  15. "Everybody Is Losing Their Damn Fool Minds"

    Pretty sure it's just the global elite and American left.

    1. Don’t forget the sheep.

      1. You have to first have a mind before you can lose it.

  16. When I see the "main stream" media not cover an execution of someone because of his political beliefs which are not theirs it's pretty clear the media and the dems who are blaming this on the man executed are simply bolshveiks..its time to not be afraid to use the term that fits...bolsheviks..

  17. Everything is fine here and our cops are terrible.

    1. I don't wear a mask and no one says anything.

  18. I listened for about 12 minutes. So much hair splitting. I hope their shampoos can handle it.

    1. I stopped listening years ago when they added Suderman to the discussion, even before then it was pretty meh.
      Suderman has few if any actual libertarian points of view and has toddler level self-awareness.
      Impressively, he's spent his entire life training himself to make every conversation as irritating as possible every time he opens his mouth.

      1. He sounds like an effete gay man in an 80's sitcom, and his opinions are always so pedestrian.

        It's a wonder that Nick's leather jacket hasn't beaten him up yet.

        1. It's funny listening to these because you can hear how much Nick hates him. They are all pretty solid leftists and sympathetic to democrats, but at least Gillespie shows some instinct towards questioning things and an interest in other perspective.
          I'm consistently in awe that Stossel is the only Reason contributer I can name who is a right leaning libertarian. Most people who identify with libertarian principles are generally right-leaning

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  20. First, not everyone is losing their damned fool minds.

    Second, it is true that a bevy of Reason writers have in fact lost their minds and writing ability and now sound like Pravda of old. This is squarely on KMW.

    Third, for a publication titled 'Reason' one would think that they would discuss an issue with facts, logic and wait for it....Reason. This is less and less true by the day.

    Last....where the fuck have the libertarians at Reason gone?

  21. The Democrats have already lost my vote. The aided/abetted/supported/obfuscated the riots.

    But I really have difficulty voting for Carrot Top.

  22. "It's also really, really bad to shoot someone in the back a bunch of times because they tried to get into a car."

    I realize that L/libertarians are falling all over themselves to exploit national conversation surrounding the recent police shootings in order to highlight our longstanding position regarding abuse of authority & the police state, but FFS—F. ACTUAL. F. S.—this pull quote & all that subscribe to its version of events is the most braindead take possible. Way to editorialize like all the left-wing rags even in the face of mounds of evidence that discredit the narrative.

  23. Speak for yourself. I am not out rioting or promoting the fake pandemic.

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