The Volokh Conspiracy

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The Volokh Conspiracy

Coronavirus

"Bloody Well Pay" Plasma Donors—and Organ Donors, too

Georgetown political philosopher Peter Jaworski makes the case for paying blood plasma donors. The same arguments also justify paying organ donors and participants in vaccine "challenge trials."

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Blood plasma.

 

In a recent report co-published by the Adam Smith Institute, the Niskanen Center, and the Australian Taxpayers Alliance, Georgetown political philosopher Peter Jaworski argues that nations that currently ban paying blood plasma donors—including Canada, the UK, and Australia—should legalize it. As he puts it in the title of the report: "Just Bloody Well Pay Them." Here is a summary of his report, posted at the Niskanen Center website:

  • There are significant global shortages of blood plasma used to make plasma therapies. Demand is growing at a rate of 6-10% per year. Three-quarters of people do not have access to the appropriate plasma therapy, largely outside of developed countries.

  • Shortages are significantly exacerbated by the World Health Organisation's policy — adopted by the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and some Canadian provinces — to rely exclusively on Voluntary Non-Remunerated Blood Donations (VNRBD).

  • The United Kingdom currently imports all (100%) of its supply of plasma therapies, Canada four-fifths (84%), Australia half (52%), and New Zealand one-tenth (13%). These countries are too increasingly dependent on imports of plasma therapies from countries that remunerate donors such as the United States and Germany. This inflates the global blood plasma price, making it unaffordable for low to middle income countries.

  • 5% of the world's population is responsible for more than half of all the plasma collected in the world.

  • In order to ensure a safe, secure, and sufficient supply of plasma therapies, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand should adopt Voluntary Remunerated Plasma Collections (VRPC).

As Jaworski explains, the US currently does allow payments to donors, and thereby provides a high percentage of the world's total supply of blood plasma. But shortages persist because so many other countries forbid it.

Jaworski provides excellent responses to a variety of standard arguments against paying donors, such as that it might lead to "exploitation" of the poor, or to "crowding out" of unpaid donations.

It is important to recognize that many of the issues raised here are similar to standard arguments against paying organ donors and paying participants in vaccine "challenge trials." In each of these cases, critics claim that allowing payment would exploit the poor, improperly "commodify" the body, and lead to deception and trickery at the expense of ill-informed donors. And, in each of them, policies banning these practices cost many lives, as well as inflicting other types of suffering. For example, the US ban on paying kidney donors leads to thousands of preventable deaths every year and consigns many thousands of other patients to years of painful kidney dialysis.

I criticized the "exploitation" and "commodification" arguments in the challenge trial context here, and in the organ transplant context here and here. I would add that legalizing these practices would also expand human freedom, and should be attractive to anyone who believes in the principle of "my body, my choice," and takes its implications seriously.

Last year, the Trump administration eased regulations restricting restricting the compensation of kidney donors for the expenses they incur as part of the donation process. This is an important step in the right direction. But much more can be achieved by also legalizing payments that go beyond simply compensating people for expenses. In most other cases, we don't expect to adequately meet the demand for any good or service simply by paying producers for some of the expenses they incur. We recognize that they also need to be able to make a profit—as in fact is allowed for every other participant in the kidney transplant process, including doctors, nurses, producers of medical supplies, and so on.

Allowing payment of organ donors, plasma donors, and participants in vaccine challenge trials is a great way to simultaneously save lives and expand human freedom. At this painful moment in history, it could also help put an early end to the coronavirus crisis, thereby limiting the enormous economic and social damage it causes.

 

Short Circuit: A Roundup of Recent Federal Court Decisions

A spectacular fossil, tree-shaped air fresheners, and protecting and serving the poop out of you.

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Please enjoy the latest edition of Short Circuit, a weekly feature from the Institute for Justice.

New on the Short Circuit podcast: a bunch of bad apples. Click here for Apple Podcasts.

  • To be included in debates hosted by the Commission on Presidential Debates, a candidate must poll at 15% nationally, a threshold that no third party has satisfied in nearly two decades. A violation of federal election law? D.C. Circuit: The law requires only that the standards for inclusion be objective, and a 15% threshold is surely that, even if it is difficult for third parties to satisfy.
  • Allegation: Major chocolate companies Nestlé, Mars, and Hershey fail to disclose on the packaging of their chocolates that their cocoa supply chains rely on child slavery. That violates the Massachusetts Consumer Protection Act. First Circuit: No, it doesn't, but you should definitely feel guilty about buying chocolate, the production of which really does rely on child slavery.
  • Suspecting a Massachusetts woman of illegal firearms sales, the ATF—without a warrant—installs a camera on a utility pole outside her home, allowing it to monitor the home 24-7 from May 2017 to January 2018. Based in part on evidence gathered by this camera, the woman, her husband, and her mother are charged with drug trafficking. First Circuit: And under circuit precedent, the continuous monitoring of someone's house in this fashion is perfectly fine. Concurrence: We should really revisit that precedent. "For most of our nation's history, the most vigilant voyeur could not replicate this kind of surveillance of the concededly observable but often intimate daily activities of life that occur so close to home."
  • Kemah, Tex. police respond to reports that man is threatening to jump to his death from a bridge. They remove him, arrest him for public intoxication. Though he is agitated and yelling that he should have jumped, no one takes the blanket he'd been given at booking. He uses it to hang himself. Fifth Circuit: If the facts are as plaintiffs allege, the cops violated the Fourteenth Amendment by failing to remove the blanket when they knew the man was at significant risk of suicide. No qualified immunity.
  • Euclid, Ohio police use-of-force training materials include a few humorous asides, such as a cartoon of an officer striking a civilian with the caption "protecting and serving the poop out of you" and a link to a comedy sketch titled "How not to get your ass kicked by the police!" Might these demonstrate indifference to the use of force? Sixth Circuit: Indeed, they might. So a motorist who was tased and pepper sprayed despite his attempts to comply with Euclid officers' commands can take his claims against not only the officers but also the municipality to a jury.
  • Hanging a tree-shaped air freshener from your rearview mirror gives the Chicago Police Department license to pull you over, the Seventh Circuit affirms. And woe betide if you have a felony conviction and happen to be driving with a rifle and two handguns.
  • Arizona man books flight on Southwest Airlines from Phoenix to Chicago. Uh oh! Southwest ran out of de-icing fluid in Chicago, leading to the cancelation of hundreds of flights out of and into Midway Airport. As a result, Arizona man books a flight to Omaha, rents overnight lodging, and proceeds to Chicago the next day. Can he recover damages for breach of contract? Seventh Circuit: No, because there was no breach; Southwest is allowed to cancel flights as long as it provides rescheduled flights. Concurrence: Technically, there was a breach, but the airline provided the remedies required by the contract, so it's the same result.
  • Investigating allegation that teenage boy molested four of his younger sisters, Arkansas police question the girls, promise them that their answers will remain confidential (as required by state law). Nearly nine years later, police release to the tabloids a redacted report with full descriptions of the interviews. Allegation: The girls are "obviously identifiable" and experienced public backlash, mental anguish. Eighth Circuit (panel): Might be a violation of the girls' informational privacy rights under the Fourteenth Amendment. No qualified immunity. Eighth Circuit (en banc): The right isn't clearly established (and may not exist at all). Qualified immunity.
  • In 2019, Arkansas erected an unusually high barrier for new political parties to get on the ballot. Simplifying slightly, they need to garner around 27,000 votes, all during a rolling 90-day window, and submit their petition at least 425 days before the general election. Eighth Circuit: The Libertarian Party of Arkansas is likely to succeed in its challenge, and the district court did not err in entering a preliminary injunction lowering the signature threshold to 10,000, the number required under prior law. (After his recent contretemps with the Eleventh Circuit, the ghost of Anthony J. Celebrezze Jr. was reportedly pleased to see his surname spelled correctly in the Eighth.)
  • "America's most spectacular fossil," two dinosaurs who died fighting each other and remain intertwined 66 million years later, is discovered on Montana ranch. Does it belong to the ranchers or to investors who own the mineral rights? Ninth Circuit (2018): The investors. Fossils are mineral under state law. Ninth Circuit (2020, en banc): The Montana Supreme Court says otherwise; the fossils instead belong to the ranchers.
  • IRS notifies two medical marijuana dispensaries that they cannot take deductions because they traffic in controlled substances, and thus they severely underpaid their taxes. They wish to challenge this. Their attorney sends appeal documents the day before they're due via "FedEx First Overnight," but they arrive a day late due to FedEx error. Close enough? Ninth Circuit: Though the IRS allows for the later delivery of documents delivered by "FedEx Standard Overnight" and "FedEx Priority Overnight," they hadn't yet approved "FedEx First Overnight." (It's added to the approved list two weeks later.) Case dismissed.
  • In 2015, head of Denver jail, and second vice president of the National Fraternal Order of Police, is fired for giving preferential treatment to officer accused of domestic violence and then lying about it. Officer: The firing was retaliation for my union activities, including opposing a city proposal to "scale back the authority [of jail officers] to use force." Tenth Circuit: You already litigated that in state court. No trying again in federal court.  (Separately, the officer also recently pled guilty to embezzling $50k from a charity assisting refugees.)
  • Darien, Ga. police officer pulls over African American couple, claims they had an obstructed license plate, and arrests them for possessing marijuana. (The drug charges are dismissed, and the officer later resigns after his history of using racial slurs comes to light.) Couple sues. Eleventh Circuit: "Racism in policing is a particularly brutal facet of our country's mistreatment of Black people." But the couple's lawyer sued under 42 U.S.C. § 1981, not the more appropriate 42 U.S.C. § 1983. And even if he had gotten the statute right, the couple would still lose.
  • In response to COVID-19, Louisiana and Illinois governors limit public assemblies to 10 people. Louisiana and Illinois churches: Which violates the Free Exercise Clause. Fifth Circuit: Louisiana's stay-at-home order has expired. The suit is moot. (Concurrence: Though I am concerned about the First Amendment implications of exempting protesters but not worshippers.) Seventh Circuit: Illinois' stay-at-home order has expired. But the case is not moot as the order could be reimposed at any time. Nevertheless, it is constitutional; theaters and concert halls are closed, so if anything, Illinois is discriminating in favor of religion by allowing small services.
  • And in further pandemic news, the Eleventh Circuit (over a dissent) has ruled that Miami jail officials' response to the pandemic has not been "utter recklessness," so a district court's injunction requiring officials to take numerous steps to protect medically vulnerable pretrial detainees is vacated.

In 2009, a windstorm knocked a tree down on Sarah Hohenberg's Memphis, Tenn. home, and her insurance company refused to pay to repair the structure. Sarah sued the insurance company, but while that was pending, her neighbors—unhappy with the pace of repairs—sued Sarah in Shelby County Environmental Court, an inaptly named court that allows private suits over housing code violations. Outrageously, even though the court has the authority to put people in jail and seize homes, it does not follow any normal rules of procedure; it doesn't record proceedings or authenticate evidence. It doesn't even keep track of most court files. And the court ruined Sarah's life. After she declined to sign over the deed to her home, the court ordered her jailed and she fled the state because she worried that, given the fragile state of her health, an arrest would kill her. The case forced her into bankruptcy, and she is currently homeless. This week, Sarah joined with IJ to force Shelby County to respect the due process rights of defendants in its Environmental Court. Click here for more.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. The police department that used the Chris Rock comedy routine in it’s training should offer it to every high school in the state. “How not to get your ass kicked by the police!” is common sense methods that lots of people do not employ when stopped by police.

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On Cancel Culture and Civil Liberties

Cancel Culture is on the rise, it needs to stop if we are to preserve a free society.

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There have been a series of recent incidents in which individuals who offended one or more members of the far left have been "canceled," i.e., social media mobs have attacked them until they lost their livelihoods. On a scale of egregiousness, let's say it ranges from James Bennett of the New York Times, forced to resign for publishing a controversial op-ed by a U.S. Senator,  as a "1" to Emmanuel Cafferty, a Mexican-American blue collar worker who lost his "dream job" after a Twitter witch-hunter falsely accused him of flashing a white power gesture at a BLM rally, as a "10."

I suspect the vast majority of us, on all points of the political spectrum, don't want to live in a society where Twitter Stasi are constantly looking for wrongthink to report to one's employer; and in the long-run, cancel culture is bound to move from private channels to the government. So the following paragraphs with which I concluded my 2003 book, You Can't Say That! were not exactly about "cancel culture" which wasn't a thing then, but are close enough to be quite relevant:

Finally, if civil liberties are to be preserved Americans will need to both develop thicker skin, and to expect other to be reasonably thick-skinned. A society that has a legal system that expects such thick skin is likely to get it. On the other hand, if the legal system gives people a legal remedy for insult, they are more likely to feel insulted. This is true for two reasons. First, as economists point out, if you subsidize something, you get more of it. If the legal remedies of antidiscrimination law, particularly monetary remedies, subsidize feelings of outrage and insult, we will get more feelings of outrage and insult, a net social loss. Economists have also noted the psychological endowment effect: once people are endowed with a right, they lose far more utility once that right is interfered with than if it had never been granted at all.

Unfortunately, Americans increasingly increasingly coddle and even reward the hypersensitive, perversely encouraging more people to be hypersensitive. In one notorious incident, a Washington, D.C. official, was forced to resign for using the word "niggardly" at a meeting because the word sounded like a racial epithet, even though it is not (it's a synonym, of Scandinavian origin, for "miserly"). It should hardly be surprising, then, that people are suing and winning damages when offended at work, when excluded by a private club or turned down as a roommate, or for being fired from a church-run school after refusing to obey church doctrine.

Yet preserving liberalism, and the civil liberties that go with it, requires a certain level of virtue by the citizenry. Among those necessary virtues is tolerance of those who intentionally or unintentionally offend, and sometimes, when civil liberties are implicated, who blatantly discriminate. A society that puts equality—in terms of the enforcement of draconian enforcement of antidiscrimination laws to alleviate every slight—ahead of civil liberties will end up with neither equality nor civil liberties. The violation of civil liberties to achieve equality will eat away at all constitutional restraints on the government, and the additional power garnered by the government, introduced for good purposes, will end up in the hands of people who use it to promote their own interests. In these days of the Oprahization of public discourse, with even presidential candidates swearing that they feel the public's pain, asking for a measure of fortitude in the face of offense and discrimination is asking a lot. Yet, in the end, it is a small price to pay for preserving civil liberties.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. I agree with you 99%, which may be a record.

  2. Most recent cancellation, the step mom of the cop who shot Rayshard Brooks was fired from her job. Her crime, being the step mom of the mom of the cop who shot Rayshard Brooks, the drunk black man at an Atlanta Wendy’s who resisted arrest after he failed his breathalizer test, tussled with two cops and stole a tazer and pointed it at the cop who shot him after he did it.

    1. And the national police unions ought to organize a national boycott against the company. Their argument would be simple: mothers don’t get arrested for what their sons do.

      What people aren’t thinking about is that neither this cop nor the ones in Minneapolis are going to get convicted and then things are going to get really nasty.

      1. 4chan has already predicted a Category 4 level chimpout.

        1. That’s actually funny.

          1. I’ve watched the riots on Twitch.tv streams. Many of the black protestors were complaining about how they should be looting white stores and burning white homes instead of the stores near “black” neighborhoods. These riots look to be like a preview of the pogroms to come – if hate is not called out on either side, how can there be peace? Israel will be safer than America in the next few decades for people with light skin.

            1. The riots never move out of the black neighborhoods…and haven’t since they started in the 1960s. Can you please show me a black riot that spread? Hispanics or asians neighborhoods defend their turf as well.

            2. Nah, I don’t think so; The fundamental fact is that, while by some measures we’re approaching a society where no ethnic/racial group is the majority, whites are going to be by far the plurality for a long while to come, and blacks will continue to be a minority.

              If it comes to THAT, it doesn’t go well for the blacks.

        2. I hope so. If they want a race war, they should know that every other group is going to be shooting at them. Asians and Hispanics HATE blacks. They might claim otherwise to try to get some privileges with regard to whitey, but that’s about it.

    2. Why can’t white people just follow Jesus’ example and turn the other cheek when confronted by black people?

      1. Because throughout all of history, getting nailed to a cross only worked out for him.

        1. It’s supposed to have worked out pretty well for the guy on the cross to one side of him, too.

    3. The article I saw (UK publication, I think) said she was fired for what she did (but didn’t say), not because of something her stepson did.

      1. Yes. It’s not at all clear what the reason was, or what she did at work.

        Given that she seems to be an admirer of Marjorie Taylor Greene it doesn’t seem implausible that she is not the best choice for an HR position.

        No doubt, there were complaints against her, but whether they were valid or not we don’t know.

      2. said she was fired for what she did (but didn’t say), not because of something her stepson did

        Knock me over with a feather — they came up with a pretext instead of owning up to it? I’ve never heard of such a thing.

    4. The worst part about it is most of our police, even when they screw up and go overboard are just trying to do their jobs. Obviously in hindsight the cop who shot Rayshard Brooks should have just let him run away, impound his car and pick him up later.

      The cop that killed Floyd didn’t pick him out at random, it was a legitimate arrest, but he was an arrogant completely callous asshole, and while I don’t think he intended to kill Floyd he obviously wasn’t too concerned if he did.

      I have 3 proposals to fix the police, one is take the unions out of the disciplinary process for misconduct. Two, make the police force at least 50% female, I don’t think women make good firemen, but they make good if not better police. Three, when an officer uses their gun, take them off the street for good, officer shootings are relatively rare, so it won’t then the ranks much, make them meter maids, or office personal, but they are done carrying a gun on the streets as an officer no matter how justified the shooting is.

      1. Kazinski, when didn’t he intend to kill Floyd? Except for intent to kill, what do you suppose is another explanation for continuing to kneel on the neck of a handcuffed man for almost 2 minutes after hearing he had no pulse?

      2. “one is take the unions out of the disciplinary process for misconduct.”

        Just get rid of them altogether. The only reason we have public sector unions is to launder tax dollars back into the campaigns of urban political machines.

        “Two, make the police force at least 50% female, I don’t think women make good firemen, but they make good if not better police.”

        What, did you have in mind, a draft, or just a very discriminatory pay scale?

        ” Three, when an officer uses their gun, take them off the street for good,”

        25-30% of cops report having fired their guns at least once, but that’s averaging between Mayberry RFD and Watts, and doesn’t account for cops who’ve shot it more than once. So you’d be talking some serious attrition.

  3. I agree with the sentiment, but hope the left keeps on pushing. They have already overplayed their hand and the more the envelope gets pushed the better. We all know those on the left are not going to suddenly have an epiphany that cancel culture is really bad. It is going to have to be a hard earned lesson for them. And that is going to involve lots of retribution in the form of turning tables. I wish it didn’t have t come to this, but alas that is where we are at.

    1. Cancel culture, snowfakes and their safe spaces, and all their made-up outrage are like the bomb-throwing nihilists of the late 1800s early 1900s. They are too delicate to throw actual explosives, but cultural bombs is just as good today.

      All they have is outrage at not getting a participation trophy, and all they do is throw public tantrums and revel in upsetting everybody else.

      1. They’re really not that brave, particularly if you take them on as individuals. I say this from experience — where we’re so used to being outnumbered that merely being outnumbered 10-1 seems like good odds, they are terrified of only having a 10-1 advantage.

        See: https://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/As-protests-spread-to-small-town-America-militia-15348677.php

        1. A Pyrrhic victory for most of those counter-protestors. What happens when the media and Twitter dox them? What happens if a fight breaks out and the police charge them with assault? What happens when their employers and inundated with hate mail and the decision is made to cut them loose? The risk of opposing the mob is too great for a lot of people. Can we even have a discussion about crime statistics without the slur of “racist” being thrown?

        2. I read your link, Ed, and found it interesting.

          Sounds these militia assholes are trying to intimidate demonstrators, which you seem to approve of.

          No complaints from Bernstein or any of the usual suspects about that being “cancel culture,” or interfering with civil rights.

    2. It’s too late. It won’t end unless conservatives become the monsters liberals accuse them of being.

      1. Why and how would liberal accusations cause conservatives to become monsters?

        1. Not accusations. Liberal actions.

          1. Liberal actions cause conservatives to become monsters? Hmm. I’d like to hear your opinion about Blacks who have claimed that societal racism has caused them to behave in negative ways.

            1. Whatever goodwill blacks had following the civil rights movement, their atrocious behavior since then has ruined it.

              1. What “atrocious behavior” are you talking about? You like to use very general terms as if everyone knows what you mean, but I don’t.

                1. Take a look at any socioeconomic indicators. They’re overrepresented in all of the social ills.

              2. Oh, and one more thing. If you’re going to use that sort of “logic,” what’s your response to someone who says that the way whites have conducted themselves with respect to minorities throughout our history has “ruined” any attempt at making amends?

    3. I’m thinking more in terms of Mutual Assured Destruction.

      During the Cold War, the Soviet leaders knew what would happen to them if they attacked us, so they didn’t. According to the movies, Mafia families all agree to leave the parents, children and spouses out of their disputes. And Justice Antonin Scalia wrote (in the RAV case) that the government “has no such authority to license one side of a debate to fight freestyle, while requiring the other to follow Marquis of Queensbury Rules.”

      It’s time for us to fight freestyle too.

      1. I agree with that. The problem is, most conservatives still believe that liberals are good people, just misguided. This prevents them from seeing their enemies as the enemies they are.

        1. Right, I had a kitten for breakfast just this morning that I killed with my bare hands.

          1. It’s not an innocent kitten that I’m thinking malicious thoughts about.

            1. He’s being an idiot.

        2. Mitt Romney can’t wait to be another gracious loser on the next episode of Meet the Press.

          1. He’s a pathetic weasel. Just like McCain, whom I hope is rotting in hell.

    4. My hope is that we start to see the left cannibalize itself. We’re starting to see some of this with the rallies for black trans lives splitting away from the general rallies for black lives. There is plenty of homophobia, transphobia, and Anti-Semitism to go around in the black community and I can’t wait to see the outcome!

      1. Let’s be honest here. Liberal Jews deserve anything they have coming to them.

        1. You have a think about Jews, don’t you? What would you like to see happen to them?

          1. I don’t wish anything specific on liberal Jews that I don’t wish on liberal gentiles. Jews are just like everyone else, only more so.

          2. neurodoc, you apparently missed his acknowledgment that he was raised Jewish but walked away from it. Which I think explains a lot.

            1. What does it explain?

              1. Since you asked, you have the same hostility toward Judaism (or at least the liberal wing of it) that an embittered ex-wife has toward her ex-husband following an acrimonious divorce. I don’t know what happened to you in your past, but only rarely have I encountered someone whose entire world view was as rage-driven as yours. Someone hurt you bad.

  4. Internet mobs are going to get worse, and this is not a problem the free market is going to fix. We need strong laws protecting employees from being canceled. That way, employers can shrug their shoulders and tell the mob, Nothing we can do about it.

    1. Companies are like buffalo in herd. The lion catches one of them, and the rest eat grass still in the sight of them, knowing that for a time, they are safe, since the lions are feeding.

      Seriously, on what planet are the incentives going to be that a company can just say “no” to the mob for an average joe? The incentives are always going to be to placate the mob and hope it blows over.

    2. That won’t help in the slightest. The employees are fired because the employer dreads the social backlash. Making it illegal to fire them will just create a new bureaucracy of SJW lawyers and make the backlash worse.

      1. Actually, we have data on it, and it would help.

        In 1964 Congress passed a law making it illegal for companies to making hiring decisions based on race. A lot of companies argued in court that even though they weren’t racists, their customers were, and their customers would not do business with them unless they discriminated against blacks.

        The answer from the courts was that since the law forbade all employers to discriminate based on race, their bigoted customers would now find black employees with any company they wanted to do business with, so the threat to any one company of facing racist backlash was minimal. And fifty years later, sure enough, that’s what’s happened.

        1. And 50 years later we have de facto racial quotas, because the process IS the punishment, and the only way you have to prove you’re not racist is to have the right numbers.

          1. So, Krychek_2 is actually supporting a de facto quota system for conservatives and Republicans. Huh. Wonder how that will go over in some quarters.

            1. No I’m not. I’m supporting protecting people on a case by case basis as the need arises.

              1. But you cannot do that without some sort of system in place that sets rules.

                1. And the rule is amending Title VII to say that no one may be discriminated against in employment based on their exercise of their free speech rights on their own time (or something to that effect; I’m writing off the top of my head and that could probably be stated more artfully than I just did).

                  If an employee claims to have been fired because of an Internet mob, the same investigative process would kick in as for any other kinds of discrimination: The plaintiff makes out a prima facie case by showing that he engaged in protected activity and was adversely treated; the company then has the opportunity to offer a non-discriminatory reason for why it did what it did, and the plaintiff has the opportunity to attack that reason as being a pretext for unlawful discrimination. See McDonnell Douglas v. Green, 411 U.S. 792.

                  No need for quotas since both leftist speech and rightest speech would be equally protected.

                  1. Just like there are no quotas for Title VII’s rules about sex or racial discrimination? Oh, wait. There are. We just hide them behind all kinds of flowery “disparate impact” language.

                    You still don’t get it. You are proposing a “solution” that is for worse than what it’s trying to solve.

                    1. Meh, it might be worth it, downsides and all.

                    2. Rossami, only yesterday you attributed to me views on the rights of sole proprietors and boycotters when I had not expressed any, and persisted in attributing them to me after I corrected you. Since you make stuff up, I’m really not interested in talking to you at this point.

                    3. I’ve practiced employment law for 30+ years, and “disparate impact” claims are almost non-existent.

                    4. Jonny Scrum-half, I do not practice employment law, but I vaguely remember a Supreme Court case from a number of years ago (I think one of the parties was named Washington) in which the Supreme Court held that disparate impact claims won’t be entertained; that you have to prove discrimination in your specific case. If my memory on that is right, then all this yapping by the right about how awful disparate impact claims are is just that: yapping about a non-existent problem.

                      I think in the early days of anti-discrimination law there was a case, Griggs v. Duke Power Plant, that did allow disparate impact claims, but it was overruled in Washington. Does that ring any bells for you?

                    5. If my memory on that is right, then all this yapping by the right about how awful disparate impact claims are is just that: yapping about a non-existent problem.

                      Yup. Only 269 published opinions discussing disparate impact so far this year. Close enough.

                    6. This reference seems to think it’s a thing.

                      As I said, I don’t think it’s so much a matter of fear of losing lawsuits, as fear of the cost of lawsuits.

                  2. So companies should be required to employ Nazis, Klansmen, holocaust deniers, ISIS supporters, and employees who write up detailed fantasies about seeing all their coworkers and their families rounded up, tortured, and murdered?

                    I don’t think I agree.

                    1. I would not hire a holocaust denier to teach European history. But neither would I say a Nazi or a Klansman should be unemployable because (1) that makes them more likely to go on welfare or turn to crime in order to survive; and (2) it gives him more free time to advance Nazi ideology and do other bad things. I’d prefer that he be gainfully employed, supporting himself and his family, paying taxes, and otherwise as useful a contributing member of society as his ideology allows him to be.

                      The guy with the detailed murder fantasies is different from other people on your list because he’s actually engaging in speech directed at individual co-workers. I likewise would not fire a Nazi just for being a Nazi, but I would fire him if he starts harassing Jewish co-workers or customers.

                      One of the Phelps siblings of God Hates Fags Westboro Baptist fame has quietly been employed for years as an attorney for the Kansas Department of Corrections. When asked about it, the Department’s public statements have always been that they disagree with her views but she has a First Amendment right to express them on her own time. I’m fine with that approach.

                    2. I would not hire a holocaust denier to teach European history.

                      So… you do support discriminating against some people for exercising their free speech rights?

                      The guy with the detailed murder fantasies is different from other people on your list because he’s actually engaging in speech directed at individual co-workers.

                      So what? It’s still protected by the First Amendment.

                    3. If the exercise of First Amendment rights actually interferes with doing the job, then sure, but most of the time it won’t. Nobody is going to require an employer to hire someone who simply isn’t able or willing to do the job. A young earth creationist shouldn’t be teaching earth science either.

                      And an employee who directs his vitriol at certain specific employees is doing something that impacts on the job itself. If not his, then that of the other employees he’s harassing.

                  3. Krychek – I can’t reply to your comment directed to me, so I’ll reply here. I’ve seen and heard so little about disparate impact since my law-school days I didn’t have a ready answer for you, so I did some quick research, and I don’t see anything that you described. I have some vague recollection that perhaps disparate impact claim of age discrimination are harder to prove than other types of disparate impact, but I didn’t see anything that eliminated that type of claim.

                    However, as I said before I just don’t see it. Maybe the EEOC brings such claims, but they’re just not very common.

                    1. And I went back and looked. The case I was thinking of related to equal protection claims under the 14th Amendment, not Title VII, so my memory was wrong. That’s what I get for getting old.

            2. supporting a de facto quota system for conservatives and Republicans

              I’ll support an explicit one — it’s a lesser evil intended to fight a greater one, not unlike a small forest fire intentionally lit so as to race toward the much bigger one and hopefully extinguish both.

              40% of the country are die-hard Trump supporters — can you name ONE person in a public university who is? Enough said?

          2. Assuming that to be true (which I’m not), that would not apply to protecting people from internet mobs because there is no way to have quotas for people who’ve been or are likely to be targeted by internet mobs.

            1. Oh yea? I don’t think you know what Pandora’s box you would open. Basically, you want protection from the mob for someone who could say something as innocent as “men are men and women are women” (JK Rowling) or wear an OAN t-shirt in an Insta pic (some college coach) or have said “nigger” at some point (a famous chef some years ago).

          3. Which means inevitably keeping on incompetent black employees. I’ve seen this in literally every company I’ve every worked for. And not it includes homosexuals.

            1. Aktenberg78, I’m going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you don’t care how competent a given black employee is, you don’t want them around. Am I right?

              1. No. Not at all.

              2. How can we determine the competency of an employee or the motivations, racial or otherwise, of an employer when the first assumption is always racial bias? Whites are “convicted” of racist attitudes by the media and the Internet lynch mob before facts are ever known.

                1. Actually, in the real world racial bias is not the “first assumption.” I don’t know where you guys get your victim mentality, but it’s not reflective of my experience representing employers against discrimination lawsuits in a very liberal state.

          4. Do you do any employment-law work? I do, and your statement is completely off-base.

      2. These won’t be SJW lawyers — and do not underestimate the creation of a cadre of lawyers engaged in the lucrative practice of defending our side. That could even extend to changes in law school curriculum….

    3. It is about changing the culture of incentives. Companies just fire random employees who engage in mundane offensive conduct because it is the path of least resistance. It is enough to appease the mob and they go on to the next target. If a company though had to face, say a coalition of other companies who would refuse to do business with them because they engaged in this immoral and unethical conduct, that would change the equation.

      The current social upheaval is sponsored by major corporations because it makes sense. Easier to just say ‘Black Lives Matter’ and throw up an empty statement about how you support diversity. Even good for business in some parts. But do you think Amazon really care that much about this? No, Bezos needs you to mint another trillion dollars for him and that isn’t going to happen if he is getting trashed in the media for months on end. Easier just to make spray paint a new prime special and take the mob’s cash. Works the same way with Big Tech. (Although I think that might be changing soon as the demands for censorship get more onerous and they are losing users because of it. We might actually see them swing more toward the “free speech” side…)

      1. Right. And one of the reasons I don’t think the free market will solve this problem is because the free market created the problem in the first place. Internet mobs only work because businesses have to care about their customers’ opinions.

        1. There was a time when businesses were more balanced and the right had some competing public pressure it could apply. Those have largely faded away. But there was a time in the 80’s and 90’s where if you got the religious right going they could exert a lot of pressure on private businesses. You would end up with some uncomfortable situations where X employee would get fired for being a homosexual, but at least the dynamic largely kept both sides pretty quiet on the “cancel this” front. Now without a counterbalancing force the left just runs amok.

        2. NO! The free market DID NOT create this problem! It is only a problem because government created slavery, Jim Crow, affirmative action, and all the racial quotas we have today, al backed by government law and government courts and government thugs.

          Did it escape your notice that this is a government agency? Whether it is owned by the government, or just regulated to a fare-thee-well as a government-mandated monopoly, the sweet smell of government is all over this employer.

          1. This particular case involved a government agency but the problem is just as bad in private companies.

          2. If you believe the private mob can make corporations cancel people, why do you refuse to believe that back in the day the same effect made corporations not hire or serve blacks?

            There’s plenty of historical records of de facto discrimination without any laws to help it…

        3. “And one of the reasons I don’t think the free market will solve this problem is because the free market created the problem in the first place.”

          You’re proposing a solution in search of a problem. It is not internet mobs that we are trying to regulate; it’s their employers. But why do we care about regulating their employers? If it’s at-will employment, it doesn’t matter why the employee was fired. If that’s a market problem, employees will solve it by demanding employment contracts. If they don’t, it isn’t a market problem. Strictly speaking there are no victims when a company just fires an at-will employee, for any reason.

      2. And if we engaged in the same tactics, it would become balance of terror and it would end.

        1. Yes the Right are always going to be nazi fascists. And the Left will always cast themselves as the freedom fighters in the public light.

          Don’t expect the media to ever treat the two sides fairly.

          1. We need our own media, and Faux News ain’t it.

            1. The Left has taught us that if you want to call the shots you have to control the levers of the mainstream institutions. I don’t think the takeaway is “build parallel system.” It is retake the institutions that rightly belong to the people and not the liberal elite.

              1. Starting with Education. That was Reagan’s mistake and 40 years later, we are living with the consequences.

        2. Can I loot the local Best Buy for a new iPad Pro?

    4. I think this is right. We do need laws protecting employees from being cancelled – and from being fired for arbitrary reasons generally. This means ending the baseline rule of “at will” employment, and requiring that an employer put forth a work-related reason for the termination. Of course, some employers may still bow to the outraged customers, if the outrage is severe enough. But the costs of an employment suit would at least make them think twice.

      The funny thing is, conservatives have only themselves to blame for this form of cancel culture. No, not just because they set the precedent with their various red scares, or their Iraq war hysteria (see the Dixie Chicks et al.). Ultimately, this sort of behavior on the part of employers would not be possible without their decades-long project of weakening workers rights. An employee in a union, or at least with some recourse in the law, is not likely to get cancelled on a whim.

      1. Bullbleep — I’ve personally seen unions abandon employees who “were canceled on a whim.” Including public sector employees.

        1. I don’t know Dr. Ed—you’re going to have to hit us with some anecdotes if your really want to persuade.

        2. You may have seen it, but it is uncommon. A represented employee is protected by a labor contract which generally requires a bona fide, job related reason for firing.
          Similarly for civil service employees and most state government employees.

        3. I’m sure there are some outliers, but in the aggregate, stronger worker protections means fewer workers getting fired for their off-the-job advocacy/political activities.

        1. we used to have aunt jemima, now we just have aunt teefah smh my head

        2. You catch more buttefies with syrup than you do with vinegar.

    5. The market can solve this problem. It just takes people speaking up and against the worst excesses of “cancel culture”. Companies that engage in knee-jerk firings are going to have a harder time hiring and retaining employees. By contrast, companies that engage in fair process, reflection, take time to evaluate, etc. are going to have a competitive advantage.

      What would a “strong law[] protecting employees from being canceled” even look like, in your view?

    6. Krychek_2, internet mobs would not amount to a hill of beans if publishing were not nearly-monopolized by a few internet media giants. It is the scale of the networks enabled by present internet policies which make the mobs imposing. If instead of having a world-wide audience for jerkishness handed to him on a silver platter, a would-be internet mobster had to mobilize his own audience, he’d be lucky to get 2 followers. Repeal Section 230 and the free market in publishing would absolutely take care of the problem, with a return to private editing.

  5. I disagree with you 99%, which unsurprisingly isn’t a record.

    Your advice is 100% anti-American and anti-1A.

    And you are misplacing your outrage.

    People can and should spew whatever that want (with the current legal exceptions like libel, fighting words, exhorting imminent violence, etc.).

    The outrage must be placed on the folks in power: govt and companies.

    I’m disturbed by WaPo’s story about the blackface woman and I’m equally disturbed by her company’s decision to fire her (with the grain of salt since we don’t know if there were other reasons).

    1. Companies and government are both, in different ways, designed to be responsive to public opinion.

      1. Agree 100%.

        However “responsive” does not mean kow-tow to all whims or trends, or to take unreasonable actions.

        We all expect our govts and companies to take measured actions when faced with situations like the blackface lady (and again, WaPo and her company didn’t).

        1. “We all expect our govts and companies to take measured actions when faced with situations like the blackface lady (and again, WaPo and her company didn’t).”

          Weirdly, I feel for all the hate being slung at the WaPo (why? hmmm…. it’s almost like there is a whole Right Wing media echochamber devoted to slagging Trump’s enemies), people seem to forget a pretty important fact as to why the WaPo was covering this story.

          Where was the party? Washington DC.

          Who hosted the party? Noted WaPo cartoonist, Tom Toles.

          Who else attended this Halloween party? An eclectic mix including “journalists and political types from Washington’s power elite[.]”

          What happened when Toles was originally contacted about the story? He lied about the identity of the person. And that’s when they got involved.

          So it’s not like the WaPo was randomly ferreting out information that had no relevance to DC, or the WaPo.

          1. “almost like there is a whole Right Wing media echochamber devoted to slagging Trump’s enemies”

            “Conservatives pounce” in its pure form. A thing is not bad or good unless the right can be blamed.

            1. Luckily, everyone knows that your comments can be safely disregarded since you view politics as not a means for advancing any particular interest or even having any consistent position, but simply an exercise in trolling.

              At least you are honest about it; more than can be said for most.

              1. As many here generally agree with me as agree with you.

                At least I don’t routinely call people “stupid” like you do.

                1. There’s a reason for that.

                2. Actually, Bob, a lot more people here agree with you.

                  Which is WHY I call them stupid. I would bother trying to persuade them, but you know what?

                  You can’t cure stupid.

          2. All those factors would be relevant if the story had been published two years ago when the party actually happened. The decision to come forward now is what makes it a fairly transparent case of motivated outrage.

            1. That’s …. not at all believable, and you know that.

              How many times have we seen stories re-surface of black face from 5, 10, 20 years in the past … or more.

              So can the BS.

          3. WaPo has become a poor excuse for journalism. It conflates news and opinion in almost every piece it publishes. For that reason I cancelled my subscription.
            It is reaping what it sows.

    2. The way to deal with this is for a systematic campaign against the WaPo’s advertisers. The tactics of the Christian Conservatives of the 1980’s were repulsive — and un-Christian. But it worked and unfortunately that sort of thing is necessary.

      1. WaPo is owned by Jeff Bezos so he doesn’t need advertisers if he just wants a rag to publish his viewpoints. Do you think Reason magazine really needs those fundraisers when Mr. Koch can just write another check? How much of the media is actively supported by the public through subscriptions as opposed to corporate sanctioned ideas being propagated in corporate backed newsprint?

  6. Your position would be far more persuasive if you would recognize that the “cancel culture” exists on the left and the right. In fact, it is basically the President’s entire modus operandi, firing and suing and regulating anyone and everyone who disagrees with him. Also, your repeated posts on this subject never seem to recognize that, for example, until very recently someone who is gay could be fired or “canceled” merely for coming out of the closet. Perhaps being fired or canceled for uttering a homophobic slur is also bad; but some appreciation of the history of discrimination on these issues would make your argument seem a bit more principled.

    1. If you read the book you will find that I point out that the reason groups like gays were able to vastly improve their status in society was precisely because there was no one around to suppress speech and activism on their behalf to freeze the intellectual status quo.

      1. Exactly. And the other thing no one mentions is that a lot of the young gay men dying of AIDS in the 1980s had life insurance policies and they left those quite large benefits to the gay activist organizations.

        1. Imagine a modern organization trying to raise funds to prevent drug abuse among poor whites, prevent suicides in isolated white men, promote traditional marriage, and encourage job training in Appalachia. Liberals like to think of themselves as “bleeding heart” types but I guarantee you that most smugly enjoy seeing poor whites ground into the dirt.

      2. “there was no one around to suppress speech and activism on their behalf to freeze the intellectual status quo”

        Point your Google-compatible device at “Focus On The Family” or “Republican Party platform,” professor.

        That the bigots eventually failed doesn’t mean they didn’t strive to keep bashing gays (and succeed for an extended period).

        1. I don’t think anyone seriously considered assaulting homosexuals, other than perhaps Muslim-Americans. Contrary to contemporary beliefs, marriage is not about “love”. Marriages are about assigning responsibilities to man and woman because male – female sexual relations result in children being born. Homosexuals can have relationships with whoever they desire but those relationships are NOT marriages because children will never result from a homosexual union. The fact that we cannot discuss this openly without fear of being labeled a “bigot” is another example of how liberals and corporations have clamped down on public dialogue.

    2. Your “both sides” mantra is misplaced. First, Trump fires those who worked for him…that’s not the same as placating a cancel culture mob. Second, in going after idiots like Kathy Griffon with rhetoric from the bully pulpit (twitter these days) the right is making the left play by it’s own rules. Where was your problem with the “j’accuse” when Obama was going after the Cambridge Police Dept, or the innocent fellow who shot Trayvon Martin in legitimate self defense?

    3. It most certainly does exist on both left and right, and I favor protecting employees from both kinds of mobs. Saying something pro-Trump shouldn’t get you fired either. (Mocked and laughed at maybe.)

      1. Sure but you all need to give the “orange man” jokes a rest. I’ve had to listen to the same jokes for 4 years! Everyone knows Donald has a weird tan, goofy hairdo, and terrible diet. Bring something else to the comedy club next time.

    4. Yeah, funny how these ardent freedom-of-speech conservatives who see cancel culture as the latest dire threat to the republic never quite found the time to worry about what happened to, say, Colin Kaepernick. De facto blacklisting from the NFL? Whatever. The right losing their nut about his sponsorship deals and calling for boycotts? Well, that’s just the free market. A cynic might think their interest is less about speech than anti-liberalism and anti-leftism.

      1. There is a qualitative difference between the average dude, like this truck driver, and a rich celebrity demanding the attention in the first place.

        1. What’s the difference? If you get fired for expressing an opinion you get fired.

          As for Cafferty, well, how about blaming SDG&E for gross stupidity and cowardice?

          1. The difference? I dunno, a couple mil in the bank makes unemployment a little easier to bear. I don’t know about you though.

            1. Doesn’t make the treatment any more fair, though.

              The millionaire may be better able to absorb the punishment. That doesn’t justify unfair punishment.

              1. But it is a qualitative difference, not to mention the reason why said rich douche-bag is willing to engender controversy on purpose, eh?

      2. Kaepernick lost his NFL job because he went 1-10 as a starting QB, idiot. Then he started the whole kneeling thing because he’s an attention whore. No NFL team wants him because shitty quarterbacks are a dime a dozen.

        1. Right. It had absolutely nothing to do with the kneeling.

          Do you really believe that crap?

          1. Being a shitty quarterback, and not having the skill to make it worth the headache of hiring said shitty quaterback, means that, yes, it has to do with the kneeling and being a shitty quarterback when there are lots of others who are better.

            Lesson? If you are going to be a dipshit, try to only do it when you’re indispensable.

            1. Kaepernick wasn’t a shitty quarterback. He is clearly better than a lot of quarterbacks who have remained employed. And to the extent your argument is that he should have made himself more indispensable before he started his protest (i.e., what you have called being a “dipshit”), why doesn’t the same argument apply to other people who get fired after doing something that their employer (or their employer’s customers) finds objectionable?

              1. I’m not a sports fanatic, but it’s pretty objective that with a 1-10 record Kaperneck was a shitty quarterback. Compared to you or me, he would be fantastic, but not compared to his peers in one of the highest paid and demanding jobs in the world. Even the Washington Compost some still has an article up that he was a total “meh”.

                Being crappy AND being a lightening rod, made his future employment in certain doubt…the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze.

          2. To the extent I’ve followed this, I get the impression that the kneeling was intended to immunize him against the consequences of being a lousy quarterback.

            1. Right, Brett.

              Always, always, bad faith.

              Couldn’t possibly have been sincere. Not in Bellmore World.

              1. I would like to buy my wife’s black son a kneeling Kaepernick action figure for Hanukkah. Do you know if they are sold anyplace? Lil’ Tyrone wants to grow up to become a mediocre NFL player who uses race politics to cover for his unimpressive career as quarterback.

          3. Mostly yes.
            If he were playing like Patrick Mahomes, he’d still be playing starting QB.

        2. Well, no, he started the kneeling thing because he read Game of Thrones!

    5. So it’s ok to fire people for saying stupid things on social media because other people were fired in the past for being gay?

      That’s how this bullshit got started.

      1. No. But it’s not OK to claim that gays didn’t have their “speech and activism” suppressed.

        1. 40 years ago, there were a lot of conservatives with a “live and let live” attitude who weren’t pro-gay but very much “leave them alone.”
          The left isn’t like that.

      2. Not what I said. I said that concern for the former would be more principled if it included concern and understanding for the latter.

  7. I have a hard time understanding what you mean by the claim that there was “no one around to suppress the speech and activism” of gay people. There were a lot of people doing just that. Gay people could be fired and discharged from the military, couldn’t marry, and were often assaulted and even killed. Yes, an activist movement changed much of that, but not without attempts by many to suppress that speech and activism. And the very underlying conditions of being fired or discharged, etc., are suppression. That’s my point. You find some isolated instance of a white person saying or doing something that is perceived by some to be racist and suffering a perhaps unjust consequence, and treat that as if it is a bigger moral failure than the underlying racism against black people that pervades our history and culture.

    1. “It’s ok to fuck with people’s lives because other people’s lives got fucked with in the past.”

      Go throw yourself into a running woodchipper feet first, jackass.

    2. Specifically, it was not illegal to advocate for gay rights.

      1. Nothing in your post appeared to be about legality. You were citing cancel culture, social media mobs, and Twitter Stasi. The victims you cite did not do anything illegal either.

        1. The goal of cancel culture is to get its views of what may be expressed enforced through law (as they are already happy to do at state universities when they can get away with it). If you can find any significant number of “cancel culture” types who also don’t support hate speech laws and other coercive measures, I’d be very surprised. This takes their assault on liberal culture from a nuisance to a threat.

          1. While that may be true, most of the harm done by “cancel culture” is done by getting employers, schools, landlords, and so forth to stop serving the victim. If there is, or can be, a remedy to be had at law, it will probably need to take the form of either discrimination law (such as the law in Colorado and several other states banning employment disciplinary actions for most kinds of off-duty conduct) or the old tort of interference with a contractual relationship.

          2. So you have ascribed a pretend goal to a made-up movement. And now what to suggest that said movement is “the left.” Nice work. It is hard to construct a better strawman.

    3. >underlying racism against black people that pervades our history and culture
      Anti-Semitism didn’t stop Larry Page or Sergey Brin. Sure, they would not have been successful in the Soviet Union where anti-Semitism was state policy but in the United States, where tolerance was once practiced, they were able to build a new company for a new communication tool, the Internet. Why can’t black people compete?

      1. “Rabbi,” Larry Page is was born in the United States and he is not Jewish. So no answers in his experience to your bigotry loaded question, “Why can’t black people compete?” But putting facts aside, what is your answer to the question you pose?

        BTW, “rabbi,” have you nothing to say in response to Aktenberg77, who worries so much on behalf of Jews, while claiming to be of Jewish parentage himself?

      2. The Bell Curve will give you the answer to that.

  8. Sheesh David, you may lose tenure if you keep writing like this. The VC will probably get demonetized by Google (assuming you are getting ad revenues from them).

    1. I am waiting for an inflammatory comment from the usual troll. The person who loves to taunt and bully and insult the other people here.

      1. You have to be more specific moff

        1. Nope. I will not be more specific. He is better at throwing insults than I am. In fact, I would rather not throw insults at all. But the usual troll has now made an appearance and used his favorite word to describe anyone who disagrees with him: “bigots.”

          1. *Ahem* Hate speech is NOT free speech, bigot!

  9. I am sorry about the truck driver. Hopefully a kind conservative will hire him, conservatives care about the working class, unlike Jacobin lefties.

    I am not sorry about Bennet, his kind created the whirlwind, they need to reap it, hard. I am not sorry about the lefty woman in the Megan Kelly blackface; play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    A Thermidorian reaction is only effective when the initial storm is hard enough. Its too scattered right now.

    1. Yes, clearly conservatives care about the working class. That’s why they spent hundreds of millions, if not more, in lobbying money and litigation fees to stop the working class getting health insurance.

      1. Yes, exactly that: They tried very hard to keep the working class from being forced to pay for health insurance they couldn’t afford, instead of getting to decide their own financial priorities.

        It’s a pretty typical left-wing trait to have contempt for the idea that people should be allowed to make their own choices, rather than be forced to do whatever the left thinks is a good idea.

        1. If only the drafters of the ACA had thought of that, and had included some way to make sure health insurance would be affordable? It might have even been in the title…

          Instead, at the moment the rich and the poor are equally free to choose whether or not to spend thousands of dollars per month/year on health insurance.

          1. ” even been in the title”

            Oh, it was in the title. Must be a fact then.

            1. But seriously, you know as well as I do that sensible Romneycare requires three ingredients:
              – a requirement for insurance companies to take all comers
              – a requirement for individuals to buy insurance
              – a subsidy for people who can’t afford to buy health insurance

              It doesn’t work without any one of those three. You can’t selectively quote from the bill and cry outrage. Nor can you lobby to trash one of the limbs and then cry outrage about what’s left.

              And, for the record, if supporting Romneycare (rather than Medicare for all) makes me a leftist, what does that make you?

          2. If only the drafters of the ACA had thought of that, and had included some way to make sure health insurance would be affordable? It might have even been in the title…

            Now do the PATRIOT Act!

            1. I’ve always found that a strange one. To my knowledge the PATRIOT Act doesn’t contain any provisions that even arguably concern patriotism. ACA, on the other hand, would have made healthcare more affordable if it had been allowed to function as intended.

              1. “would have made healthcare more affordable if it had been allowed to function as intended”

                True health insurance reform has never been tried.

                1. Of course true health insurance reform has been tried. In the US, it’s been tried (successfully) in Massachusetts and Hawaii, and if Obamacare hadn’t been lobbied and litigated to death, it would have given the US essentially the same system that half of the OECD countries have, all of which have health insurance at a fraction of the cost/cost to users of the US.

              2. That may or may not be the case. My point is that the fact that they put the word “affordable” in the name doesn’t shed any light on the question.

                1. Indeed, which is why I didn’t claim it did.

        2. And my family’s doctor was driven into retirement by this great health insurance — and this helped me, HOW???

          1. Now you know that your doctor has been overcharging you.

  10. Is it defamatory to call someone a “racist” when they are not? Might be interesting to force a judicial examination of just what constitutes “racism”.

  11. From a libertarian point of view I don’t know why cancel culture is a problem. There should a be a way in the marketplace of a ideas to have idea products discontinued just like in normal marketplace. The consumer says they don’t want a product, it stops going up on the shelf. Surely the point isn’t that every idea gets equal weight like some sort of communist distribution.

    I suspect it is because a large part of cancel culture, cancels conservative ideas publicly. Its a weird carveout of an idea that you have previously been in favor of, when it applied publicly to leftist ideas, or privately, to decisions made about whether to give someone a career based on ideas they espoused.

    1. “… members of a free society are entitled to decide that some political views are so beyond the pale that the holders of those views should be treated as moral pariahs.” – David Bernstein

      1. And yet, members of society are also entitled to point out that suggesting that basically any ideas on race and other matters to the left of Bernie Sanders are beyond the pale is absurd and authoritarian.

        1. Well yes. To the left of Bernie Sanders is pretty far left, even by non-US standards.

        2. I think we’re saying the same thing, so I really don’t understand the push against cancel culture, unless it is based on who gets “canceled,” which seems like the exact wrong way to look at this.

  12. “Cancel Culture is on the rise, it needs to stop if we are to preserve a free society.”

    Why would you think the left wants to preserve a free society?
    Why would you think the right has the balls to try to preserve a free society?

    Get ready for the brave new world.

    1. They will when the food runs out. Look at the people who show up with rifles to government buildings. There are patriots willing to fight. It’ll only take a few more pushes to make them do it.

      1. Yes. Nothing identifies a true patriot better than the willingness to take up arms against the government. Hence all the statues, etc.

        1. “Nothing identifies a true patriot better than the willingness to take up arms against the government.”

          Don’t they study the American Revolution in Holland?

          Patriots is literally the name for the men who rebelled.

          1. It literally isn’t. Revolutionary army. It’s in the title.

            1. “Revolutionary army. ”

              No, it was the Continental Army.

              “Patriots (also known as Revolutionaries, Continentals, Rebels, or American Whigs) were those colonists of the Thirteen Colonies who rejected British rule during the American Revolution and declared the United States of America as an independent nation in July 1776. ” wiki

              1. Yes. Because they won they became the government and retroactively became patriots.

                1. Yes. The winners write the history books. Might = right. What’s your point?

            2. The revolutionaries did indeed literally call themselves Patriots. They also called themselves other things, and were called more things still by others, although the “revolutionary army” is not one I’m familiar with.

              https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution)

  13. It’s almost as if lax antitrust enforcement isn’t a good idea…

  14. Prof. Bernstein’s message has merit but is presented in a counterproductively one-sided manner (no mention of Colin Kaepernick, decades of Focus on the Family boycotts, recent tweets from the White House, etc.) and published at a blog that has engaged in content-directed censorship, including commenter cancellation.

    Arguments perceived as partisan in this context will be ignored by most audiences at best and counterproductive more often.

    I would accept either a productive, nonpartisan debate or a continuation of the partisan polemics. It’s easy to be flexible when your side is winning.

    1. Yes, look at Focus on the Family and what the left did to them.
      https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1996/05/03/gunman-holds-four-hostages-then-gives-up/666ea3f3-7e03-4890-98c4-ac1a262291be/

      If someone had done that to the SPLC just once, we’d still be hearing about it 25 years later. But no, it happened AGAIN in 2012, this time the perp was a volunteer at a LBGT community center.

      We aren’t shooting your people….

      1. If we’re quoting examples from the last century, I think Rev. Martin Luther King would like a word…

        1. 2012 was 8 years ago — or are you using Common Core math?

          1. The article you linked was from 1996.

      2. There would even be a made up national day of mourning for the SPLC shooting…

        Remember when a Bernie Bros shot up a Republican baseball game almost killing the minority whip (3rd in charge)? No of course not because the media acted like it never happened. Instead we are supposed to believe that some crazy kid down south who shot up a church youth group really did it because of a statue of Robert E Lee in the public square. Which then of course means we have to take down every confederate statue everywhere because of that one time…

        1. I remember it well.

          It’s a staple of right-wing defensiveness whenever the subject of right-wing violence comes up. At this point it doesn’t even mean anything, just one more stupid scream.

          1. It comes up because the media gins up supposed “right wing violence” that doesn’t exist. The reason why people won’t listen to you is two fold. The BS about making stuff up and the BS of pretending real things that happened never did.

            1. I mean Dylann Roof, Robert Gregory Bowers, John Earnest, Patrick Crusius, Robert Alvin Justus, etc. “The BS of pretending real things that happened never did.” Indeed!

              1. Oh, good. Do some jihadists next.

  15. When King and the civil rights movement were marching and protesting during the day, at night King and other civil rights leaders were on the phone with LBJ and other officials working to get legislation passed, to reform things. Go listen to the calls between the LBJ and King, for example, over the passage of the Voting Rights. They weren’t just demonstrating (courageously); they were working with the system to improve it, to open it up for black Americans to use. King believed in America; he wanted black Americans to be included in it.
    This movement, however well motivated, is simply cruel and mean spirited and revengeful. It’s not interested in building things up, in working within; it wants to destroy and overthrow. How is ruining the life of a 50 year old woman who years ago dressed up in black face really improving the lives of black Americans? It’s not. It’s just cruel revenge, a power trip.

    Power. That seems to be what it’s about. Having power over others and using that power for your own narrow purposes.

    1. Power is what the French Revolution devolved into.

      1. Correct. If there’s no common ground on which to argue, to debate, if there’s no “good faith” belief in each other, then it all comes down to power.
        If you truly believe America (like the ancien regime) and all of its institutions are corrupt and evil and you believe that everyone or anyone defending them are similarly immoral, then you don’t want to compromise with them. Why should you? You’re compromising with evil.
        Similarly, if you think civil liberties – due process, free speech – are simply instruments used by white supremacists to maintain power over these corrupt institutions then why support those liberties? You can’t.
        We’re in quite a mess here. One hopes it’s just a paroxysm of anger, a “woke” fad that will pass. But I’m not sure anymore.

  16. We need to make the Leftists as afraid to be who they are publicly as they have made any of us.

    They need to be afraid to say who they are voting for.

    They need to fear having a bumpersticker on their car.

    They need to think twice about wearing a blue hat.

    They need to regret saying they vote Democrat on social media.

    They need to feel the same pain many of us feel.

    1. If you’re so easily shamed for supporting Trump, that probably suggest that you know, deep inside, that you’re on the wrong side on that one.

      1. What made you think I was referring to some personal emotion shame?

        Is that all you see happening to Trump supporters? Are you blind to the physical, social, and commercial violence being committed by Leftists?

  17. Some local “activists” when digging through Facebook to find something to make the controversy of the day. They did and it was some woman who had posted something about immigration maybe 10 years ago. The screen shots of the comments weren’t that bad, but then again we live in the days of moral panic, so they suited the purpose. The local news asked what they hoped in achieving by getting her fired from her private employer. By the coverage it appeared she was simply an administrative assistant at a small company. The “activist” really didn’t have a response. The reporter pushed the question and said something like “wouldn’t it be against what you are working for if this woman ends up on welfare and food stamps because no one wants to hire her after this?” That got the “activist” mad and he stormed off.

    Highlighted the whole purpose of keeping the mob busy is just to generate controversy. That is the purpose of the exercise. There is nothing else there. It isn’t going to make anyone’s life better. It isn’t going to root out racism. It is just going to keep the controversy rolling for another news cycle.

    1. Do you have a link to that story? Do they identify the activist? I bet that person should feel a little activism themselves.

  18. dont they teach Voltaire anymore?

    1. Twenty years ago, students at UMass Amherst were chanting “Fuck the First Amendment.”

      Does that answer your question?

    2. was he the Italian who discovered electricity?

  19. David,

    Where on your scale does Trump’s effort to silence Bolton fall?

    Where does his threat against protestors in Tulsa fall?

    How do you compare anti-free expression activities engaged in by the President with complaints by random Twitter users?

    1. Sorry, you think it’s just *complaints* that are occurring?
      What does Trump’s appalling behavior have to do with the topic at hand? Does his stupid and reckless comments (with no follow up because he’s an incompetent demagogue) excuse this “cancel” culture?
      If the topic was Trump’s threats and someone said, “What about ‘cancel culture'”? would that be acceptable? You’d point out that that was a diversion, a dodge to get around the issue.

  20. Largely cries of future victimhood, and exhortations for current violence.

    1. You really do need to excuse this, don’t you? You have some sort of mental “victim spreadsheet” that you use where you go over complaints and judge whether they have merit or not. Instead of having a principled opposition to such attacks. This group are true victims; this group can be dismissed.
      You railed away against that Covington boy for “smirking”. But were silent about the black religious group that was calling them “fags” and other names. Yes, “smirking” at the Native American was appalling behavior but people who complain about others having their lives ruined – career destroyed, character attacked – are having fainting spells.
      All you see is groups here and not individual people whose lives are being ruined.

      1. ““smirking” at the Native American was appalling behavior ”

        No it wasn’t. The old guy was yelling at the kid so he just stood there, probably not knowing what to do.

        The bad guy was the old Indian.

      2. Don’t bother Steve. These people hate us and want to see us dead.

        1. Good lord Sam, I don’t want you dead. I don’t even know you.

      3. I’m not excusing anything.

        This comment thread is a mess.

    2. Oh, and racism.

      RabbiHarveyWeinstein
      June.19.2020 at 12:25 pm
      4chan has already predicted a Category 4 level chimpout.

      mad_kalak
      June.19.2020 at 12:34 pm
      That’s actually funny.

      1. Yes, I laughed at a racist joke. Just like I laughed at The Producers and Blazing Saddles and the Chappelle Show and a ton of other things that are racist in Sarcastro world. Are you working yourself up to a good cancel culture sesh yourself?

  21. Complaints is what the Cafferty incident sounds like to me. What else happened? I mean, I know the company fired him, which as I said is idiotic and cowardly. Even the guy who posted the picture to begin with now admits he probably misinterpreted the gesture. So lay the blame on SDG&E.

    What does Trump’s appalling behavior have to do with the topic at hand? Does his stupid and reckless comments (with no follow up because he’s an incompetent demagogue) excuse this “cancel” culture?
    If the topic was Trump’s threats and someone said, “What about ‘cancel culture’”? would that be acceptable? You’d point out that that was a diversion, a dodge to get around the issue.

    Well, he is following up on the Bolton matter, and there seem to be plenty of militia assholes who are happy to show up at demonstrations to intimidate protestors, or even shoot them or run cars into them. And I’d say Trump’s reckless talk about “rough treatment” only encourages that. Sounds like just more “cancel” stuff to me.

    Anyway, I’m not trying to dodge the issue. I oppose shutting down speakers. I agree in general with Bernstein’s sentiments, but I do think he blinds himself to bad behavior from those on his side, which was sort of my point.

    We have a long history of “cancel culture” in this country, some of it involving actual physical “cancelling” of individuals, so if you want to get worked up about things go ahead, but don’t be too damned virtuous about it.

    1. The above intended as a response to SteveMG’s 1:32 comment.

  22. This is where the fight over confederate statues ends:

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/19/us/portland-george-washington-statue-toppled-trnd/index.html

    With the destruction of America.

    1. LOL. George Washington was an actual slave owner. Across the world statues have been toppled of people who had a much more tangential relationship to the slave trade than him. If you think Washington is as bad as it gets, you’re in for a big surprise.

      1. Huh? You just proved my point.

        1. Well, one of them, yes. When it comes to the notion that a statue being taken down is “the destruction of America”, you’re on your own.

  23. On Cancel Culture and Civil Liberties

    In your examples, whose civil liberties are being violated? Is the government getting involved? Are you predicting that the government will get involved in the future? I don’t understand.

    1. OK, I reread, you say “cancel culture is bound to move from private channels to the government”. Do you have evidence for that prediction? The courts are pretty good on free speech, aren’t they?

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Download DHS v. Regents of the University of California (The DACA Case)

We have edited the case down to 22 pages for the Barnett/Blackman supplement

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We have edited DHS v. Regents of the University of California down to 22 pages. It will (likely) be used in the 2020 Barnett/Blackman supplement.

You can download it at this link: https://bit.ly/RegentsEdited.

Today in Supreme Court History

Today in Supreme Court History: June 19, 1992

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6/19/1992: New York v. U.S. is decided.

Why the DACA Rescission Failed CJ Robert's APA "Severability" Analysis

The DHS Secretary erred because she rescinded the entire DACA policy, rather than just the parts CJ Roberts suggested might be unlawful

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Yesterday, I posted my high-level analysis of DHS v. Regents of California, the DACA case. This lengthy post will dive deeper into the weeds. I'll presume familiarity with the facts of the case, the history of the litigation, and knowledge of basic APA doctrine.

Chief Justice Roberts's analysis has eight major parts.

First, Roberts held that the DACA rescission is subject to judicial review. This conclusion is significant. In 2016, the Obama administration argued that DAPA itself was not subject to review because DAPA was a general non-enforcement policy. And in 2020, the Trump administration argued that the DACA rescission was not subject to review, because the rescission was also a general non-enforcement policy. (Republican and Democratic agencies agree on little but non-reviewability). But Roberts rejects both positions. He argues that DACA "is not simply a non-enforcement policy." Why? Critically, the policy confers benefits:

The benefits attendant to deferred action provide further confirmation that DACA is more than simply a non-enforcement policy. As described above, by virtue of receiving deferred action, the 700,000 DACA recipients may request work authorization and are eligible for Social Security and Medicare. Unlike an agency's refusal to take requested enforcement action, access to these types of benefits is an interest "courts often are called upon to protect." Chaney. Because the DACA program is more than a non-enforcement policy, its rescission is subject to review under the APA.

Defenders of DACA have long argued that the policy is merely an act of prioritization: certain people are de-prioritized for removal. Chief Justice Roberts has killed that argument. As a result, Texas's long-pending challenge to DACA has now cleared the reviewability hurdle. That case can proceed to the merits. These holdings were small concessions for the Court's four liberals to pay for a favorable judgment.

Second, Chief Justice Roberts limited his review to the Duke memorandum, and disregards the Nielsen memorandum. I think this analysis is correct. The Nielsen memo added additional justifications that were not in the agency action. Roberts write:

The policy reasons that Secretary Nielsen cites as a third basis for the rescission are also nowhere to be found in the Duke Memorandum. That document makes no mention of a preference for legislative fixes, the superiority of case-by-case decisionmaking, the importance of sending a message of robust enforcement, or any other policy consideration. Nor are these points included in the legal analysis from the Fifth Circuit and the Attorney General. They can be viewed only as impermissible post hoc rationalizations and thus are not properly before us.

Judge Bates put the administration in a tough bind. They did the best they could.

Third, Roberts finds that the rescission is arbitrary and capricious. But he expressly rejects the approaches of three courts of appeals. These courts held that the Secretary was wrong to rely on the Fifth Circuit's decision, because the Fifth Circuit was wrong. For example, the Ninth Circuit held that the Fifth Circuit erred in Texas v. U.S. Therefore, the Secretary's analysis was arbitrary and capricious:

DACA is being implemented in a manner that reflects discretionary, case-by-case review, and at least one of the Fifth Circuit's key rationales in striking down DAPA is inapplicable with respect to DACA. With respect for our sister circuit, we find the analysis that seemingly compelled the result in Texas entirely inapposite. And because the Acting Secretary was therefore incorrect in her belief that DACA was illegal and had to be rescinded, plaintiffs are likely to succeed in demonstrating that the rescission must be set aside. Chenery I, 318 U.S. at 94.

But Chief Justice Roberts did not adopt this approach. He did not disagree with the Fifth Circuit's decision. He could have. That holding would have made this case much easier. To the contrary, he recited the Fifth Circuit's analysis without any criticism whatsoever.

Does this recitation suggest Roberts agrees with Judges Smith and Elrod? Possibly. Roberts explains that Secretary Duke was "bound by the Attorney General's legal determination" concerning Texas v. U.S. He added, "Whether DACA is illegal is, of course, a legal determination, and therefore a question for the Attorney General." Even if the Attorney General relied on an erroneous precedent, the DHS Secretary could not have disagreed. But I am inclined to believe that Roberts endorsed the Fifth Circuit's rationale. I'll explain why in the next part.

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  1. Very interesting read, thank you.

    I’m curious. Since Roberts said that the benefits were illegal and severable, could DHS, with agreement of DOJ, remove the work permit portion by executive action and leave the forbearance?

  2. Judge Bates put them in a bind? What did Judge Bates have to do with it?
    And BTW, was it the Kagan Court when Kennedy was still on it? Or does that appellation only apply now that Roberts is more often (but not always) a swing vote?

  3. Thank you for your thorough analysis, Prof. Blackman.

    I hate Roberts. It is impossible to imagine he’s being sincere, and not simply a clever partisan.

    1. I think Roberts is being extorted….

        1. I don’t understand the question. If you are asking “Why does Dr. Ed believe something” the answer should be apparent. The things that Dr. Ed (professes) to believe are incoherent. There’s no rational sieve. You might as well ask why a dog eats its own shit. Another problem is that since Dr. Ed is a compulsive liar, you shouldn’t assume Dr. Ed even believes that Roberts is being extorted, since there’s no reliable truth function for the “I think” portion of the statement, too. Worse, any answer you receive from him is just going to run you through the same exercise.

          Now, if you want to know what Dr. Ed will say, he’s about to send you a link from The Blaze or JudicialRobes.org or some shit saying that President Obama extorted John Roberts by threatening to have the Chief Justice’s adopted children taken away from him.

  4. If you are right, this is the best of both worlds — they can stay here, so there are no Elián González moments, but they can’t do anything, nor can they receive any governmental benefits.

  5. If only Roberts had held up his microscope to NYSRPA and found the same microscope made the case not moot.

    One case is a blip. Two cases (census, DACA) is a pattern. We will see more like this. I think Roberts true self has been revealed.

    1. Also: goodbye conservative dream of reducing the administrative state. Roberts just gave it a keystone. He is becoming its chief defender.

    2. When I was in Law School I took a class with a then-Magistrate Judge. In addition to what was in the curriculum, the two messages he reminded us were (1) ALWAYS read the individual rules of the Judge you are assigned to and (2) Judges have long memories. I believe what you are seeing here is Chief Justice Roberts has gotten fed up with the Trump administration’s use of post hoc justifications, misrepresentations to the Court, etc., and is not cutting them any breaks on close questions that can go either way. Look how the Supreme Court regularly slaps down the Ninth Circus on habeas/death penalty cases. Roberts is doing the same thing to the Trump administration, but with leave for them to do it correctly and then he will change his vote.

  6. When the history of this term is written, historians will recognize that the two most important moments did not occur in the courtroom, but in the United States Senate. One was the amicus brief, authored by Sheldon Whitehouse and several authors, threatening to pack the court if SCOTUS did not moot the New York gun case. The other was Sen. Schumer’s performance on the steps of the court threatening, specifically, Justices Kavanaugh and Gorsuch over the Louisiana abortion case. We have known, of course, since the Obamacare case, that Justice Roberts could be intimidated. This term confirms that more than one of the justices can be. I agree with Josh that is highly unlikely that the conservatives will win a single major victory this term, perhaps not even the Little Sisters of the Poor. If you have any questions as to why Americans are unhappier than they have been in 50 years, you can add the ability of the left to intimidate the Supreme Court to all the other institutional failures that have become manifest.

    1. Which is why they need to be exterminated. This stuff won’t end until liberals start getting kidnapped, tortured and killed.

        1. Has reason been taking down Aktenberg’s sad bloodthirsty posts?

  7. When the history of this term is written, it will be seen that the two most important events were Sen. Whitehouse’s amicus brief in the New York gun case threatening the court if it didn’t moot it, and Sen. Schumer’s rant against Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh on the steps of the court. What both events proved–as if we needed to know–is that the court, and particularly Justice Roberts, can be intimidated. You add this knowledge to the other institutional failures that have become manifest, and it is understandable why Americans are unhappier than they have been in 50 years.

  8. Denmark
    June.19.2020 at 9:14 am
    When the history of this term is written, it will be seen that the two most important events were Sen. Whitehouse’s amicus brief in the New York gun case threatening the court if it didn’t moot it, and Sen. Schumer’s rant against Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh on the steps of the court. What both events proved–as if we needed to know–is that the court, and particularly Justice Roberts, can be intimidated. You add this knowledge to the other institutional failures that have become manifest, and it is understandable why Americans are unhappier than they have been in 50 years.

  9. The decision says that Nielsen’s cited policy reasons are not in the Duke Memorandam: preference for legislative fixes, and importance of sending a message of robust enforcement. Why on Earth would such obvious policy reasons need to be there? In fact, in another case the court was told that random things Trump said on the campaign trail can be used to show discrimiatory bias.

    Also, Roberts doesn’t want to use a “scalpel” here as you said, yet he has no problem using a scalpel in other places like fixing the ACA.

    1. Agreed. Roberts is using a different set of standards for Trump compared to anyone else. He tied knots to justify ACA & the penalty as a “tax”. Here he goes “we need not rule on the legality of the original program” and makes it harder to remove than it was to implement in the first place.

      I think an appropriate response would be to a rapid action program to grant FFLs. See what comes out of that, especially since an FFL is a tangible benefit.

      1. That should happen in any case, since FFL were artificially reduced during the Clinton administration by an extra-statutory requirement that the FFL have a place of business separate from their residence.

        I’d say FFL’s were decimated, except that it was more like 90% than 10%.

  10. So here’s the problem.

    Conservatives decry the Obama administrations decision to use prosecutorial discretion not to prosecute young men and women who were brought to this nation without any action on their part and who are now good, decent, productive law abiding residents. The law must be followed they argue if it has been broken, no discretion on the part of the prosecutors.

    But then these same conservatives turn around and argue for complete and total prosecutorial discretion in the Flynn case. The government, they say, has complete and unlimited authority to dop prosecution of a man who is an admitted perjurer.

    See, the reason many people reject modern so-called conservatives is this lack of intellectual integrity.

    1. See, the reason many people reject modern so-called conservatives is this lack of intellectual integrity.

      You should look up this thing called projection. And I’m noting your own lying, especially with Flynn with the lack of evidence of perjury. How many people are we at who plead guilty to murder and later found innocent?

      We’re just looking for consistency. Try coming up with a case in which we’re arguing the same prior rules applied to conservatives should not later be applied to liberals. Can you explain why severability was applied before and not later? Other than “it’s Trump”.

      1. As far as evidence of perjury is concerned, the several times Flynn confessed in open court to lying is good enough evidence for me.

        Yes, let’s apply the same rules to everyone. So either government has unlimited authority to prosecute or not prosecute, or it doesn’t. You cannot just take on position when it results in an outcome you like and a different position when it results in an outcome you don’t like. Well you can, but don’t call it conservatism, call it what it is, opportunism.

        1. May you someday face a coerced plea deal yourself, when you’re innocent.

          1. Yes you are right, Flynn was just a penniless minority who was illiterate with a 6th grade education who had a court appointed public defender and was looking at life imprisonment and was beaten and tortured into a confession by police. Uh, wait a minute . . . . .

    2. Sidney r finkel – The DACA decision does not focus on what you’re describing. You’re diverting the discussion. (At least chose another analogy, because the Flynn one is terrible. It’s not merely one of discretion of the prosecution but also about Brady materials and legal misbehavior.)

  11. “Ever since President Bush announced his selection of Judge John G. Roberts, Jr., as his Supreme Court nominee, speculation over whether Judge Roberts might be gay has run rampant throughout the blogosphere.” from the blog “Underneath Their Robes.”

    Indeed, if someone had incontrovertible evidence of this they could hold it over his head, and get decisions they wanted. It is a perfectly reasonable answer to some of his wacky rulings, starting with the ACA decision.

  12. Professor Blackman,

    Why didn’t the majority simply say they couldn’t reach a decision and relist the case to the next term? This would have the same practical effect of pushing any decision to the next President, without making a mishmash of administrative law. Why not simply go that route?

  13. “Of course, there may be an upside. If President Trump loses in November, his administration could rush through a package of questionable executive actions, on which people will quickly rely upon, rendering it impossible for President Biden to rescind them.”

    Why is this an “upside” in your view? I can’t square your criticism of the CJ’s opinion with you praising its lasting effects. If you think Roberts was wrong, why would you be encouraged that it will extend to future cases?

    1. In any case, it’s a silly suggestion, because if this is really TrumpLaw, or even a case of Roberts switching sides, his questionable executive orders wouldn’t be treated the same as Obama’s.

  14. As I said in my comment on Professor Somin’s post, on reflection, a backdrop to this case is that President Trump initially expressed sympathy for DACA recipients, even praised them, and then offered to exchange then for what was essentially a ransom, concessions on other priorities of his. And when the ransom wasn’t paid, he then came out against them, cracking down harshly.

    This makes the situation somewhat different from a President who simply supports strict letter-of-the-law immigration enforcement and opposes DACA on that ground.

    I suspect Chief Justice Roberts was personally horrified by President Trump’s callousness, both with regard to the DaCa recipients themselves and with regard to his duties to faithfully execute the law. He was equally willing to sacrifice both as pawns for his personal and political interests.

    Assuming the APA applies, it might have been reasonable to recite the history and say that the APA requires a policy that flows from the statute in a reasoned way and is based on something other then expediency and horse-trading. And perhaps the opinion, in its tortured way, was trying to say that between the lines.

    That said, I don’t think the APA applies. If the DACA program didn’t need notice and comment, then it could be rescinded without notice and comment, and if it did, then it was not validly enacted in the first place. I think this principle still applies piece by piece, if some parts needed notice and comment and others didn’t.

    Also, foreign policy matters in general don’t have to be moral, or represent any sort of individual or personal justice. The United States can for example address a dispute with a foreign country by kicking its nationals out, regardless of what they personally did, just as it enact a trade embargo with regard for the personal guilt or innocence of those economically hurt.

    I completely agree that a President in making these decisions is supposed represent the interests of the United States, and not use relations with other countries and their nationals as a football for internal politicsl disputes and personal or political advantage.

    That said, however horrifying justices may find a President who does this, I don’t think it’s the role of the Supreme Court to prevent it, unless a statute specifically commands it.

    Just as I understand the Justices’ moral revulsion at President Trump’s behavior, i understand their desire to find a statute enabling them to intervene, and hence why the APA, which indeed does require reasoned, statutory-focused decision-making in administrative policy, represents a very tempting potential legal vehicle for such intervention. But I don’t think the majority’s legal argument that the APA applies is sound.

    1. Sorry, just as it can enact a trade embargo without regard to the guilt or innocence of those individually hurt.

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"'Nooses' in Oakland Park Were Exercise Aids, Man Says"

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The AP reports, following up on earlier stories (CNN, N.Y. Post, Independent [UK]) that reported the nooses were being investigated as hate crimes:

Oakland's mayor said five ropes found hanging from trees in a city park are nooses and racially-charged symbols of terror but a resident said they are merely exercise equipment that he put up there months ago….

The Police Department provided five photographs of trees, some of which showed knotted ropes and one that appeared to have a piece of plastic pipe attached to a rope, hanging from tree limbs.

Victor Sengbe, who is black, told KGO-TV that the ropes were part of a rigging that he and his friends used as part of a larger swing system. He also shared video of the swing in use.

"Out of the dozen and hundreds and thousands of people that walked by, no one has thought that it looked anywhere close to a noose. Folks have used it for exercise. It was really a fun addition to the park that we tried to create," Sengbe said.

"It's unfortunate that a genuine gesture of just wanting to have a good time got misinterpreted into something so heinous," he told the station….

Police said several community members came forward during their initial investigation to say the ropes were used for exercise and a man came forward to say he put them up several months ago….

I appreciate that the city might not want anything hanging off the trees that's offputting to some park users (the trees aren't a public forum opened for public use)—or for that matter that might cause physical injury. But it's a reminder that things aren't always as they may seem to some.

Note also that one common argument for why hate crimes (e.g., a racially-motivated assault) should lead to greater punishment is that such a crime "is no ordinary crime because it transcends its immediate victims and strikes fear and terror into entire communities," in the words of now-Senator Charles Shumer. That suggests that, if there's an ambiguous incident, it may be better for government officials and the media to resist labeling it a hate crime until some more investigation takes place, since false reports can "strike[] fear and terror" as much as accurate ones can. (I'm certainly not saying there should be any prohibition on such premature labeling, just a preference to avoid prematurely publicly assuming the worst.)

Thanks to Ed Driscoll at InstaPundit for the pointer.

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  1. It’s all political. Burning the flag is not a hate crime, it’s protected speech. Hate crime laws are political weapons.

    Ask the citizens of Oakland if they would support hate crime laws if it was Donald Trump who decided what was hate.

    1. Burning the US flag is not — burning the Gay Pride flag IS….

      1. Come on. You know it can’t be a hate crime, because it isn’t a crime.

        1. “Disturbing the peace”, “disorderly conduct”, and even “burning without a permit” come to mind as crimes that would be charged.

          1. That all works for burning the American flag too. You can’t have content based criteria, or selective prosecution based on content.

      2. Suppose they were nooses. What crime would have been committed by whoever put them up? Littering?! And since it’s not a crime, how can it be a hate crime?

      3. Oops. Please ignore the second comment above, it was not meant as a reply to Dr Ed but as a top-level comment.

  2. There’s also the fable of “The Boy Who Cried Wolf.”

    1. Was pointing to this a widespread thing on the left? I’ve heard about some mysterious black suicides by hanging, but never heard anyone talking about this.

      Not that blowing up this nonsense isn’t the sort of thing they’d run with. The narrative urge is strong.

      1. Libby Schaff, the mayor of Oakland some pretty strong feelings about who black people were exercising when the gyms and playgrounds were closed.

    2. But what is the actual moral of that story? It isn’t that if you tell lies you won’t be believed when you tell the truth. It’s that even a liar sometimes tells the truth, and if you ignore everything they say you will end up not hearing something you really need to hear.

      It was no skin off the shepherd’s nose that nobody believed him when he told the truth. The sheep’s owners didn’t believe him, and the wolf killed their sheep.

      1. Wow, that’s really standing a parable on it’s head. Impressive!

  3. This site won’t let me embed the Twitter link but here is a picture of the “nooses”. They are quite clearly exercise equipment.

    https://twitter.com/josephlocascio/status/1273472042939985922

    1. If one feels threatened, then ALL should feel threatened, I would imagine the thinking goes.

    2. Yeah, kind of hard to hang someone from one of those triangular handholds.

    3. Leave to Libby, What a shithead she is.

  4. “Victor Sengbe, who is black…” first of all we don’t know he is black because it doesn’t say in the article who he intends to vote for in November. Second there is a documented sub-culture of Black White supremacists, the Chapelle show has produced multiple documentaries exposing the phenomenon.

  5. Yes, it’s really odd that the authorities weren’t more relaxed about possible nooses in a public park. It’s not like there has been a string of “suicides” by hanging among black people recently…

    https://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news/nation/6-people-of-color-have-died-in-recent-string-of-hangings-across-country/article_e770d485-c096-5bad-a6ec-9df5f3a76e96.html

    1. So, six deaths in 20ish days, spread across the country, and the investigators who have actually examined the scenes are calling them suicides.

      Evil, nation wide conspiracy? Maybe!

      I wonder how much of an aberration this is. WISQARS shows 7093 Black suicides by hanging/suffocation in the last 10 years, so the usual number in a 20 day period would be something like 709*(20/365), which is about 39.

      (FWIW, the white rate is over double the black rate, so conspiracy theorists might want to have a look there…)

      In other news, the Summer of the Shark didn’t really have an unusual number of shark attacks either.

    2. Six suicides. Across the entire country. Sorry, that’s not “a string” – that’s statistically normal.

      But even if it were a string, there’s still no way to mistake exercise equipment for a noose.

      1. Seriously, if you believe those were all suicides I have a bridge you might like to buy.

    3. Take a look at the picture linked above and let us know if you still think this was a reasonable reaction.

    4. Hanging is a pretty common suicide method, other than Epstein there is nothing suspicious about it.

      I live in Cambodia in the winter time, and it’s by far the most common form of suicide there from what I can tell by reading the news.

    5. Oh yeah one other thing, hanging is the most common suicide method in the Netherlands. I’m guessing most Moroccan’s that proportedly hang themselves are being murdered too.

      1. That’s what happens in a country without widespread gun ownership.

  6. Were they actual nooses, or merely some kind of knot tied in a rope? Because most leftists think that ANY kind of knot is a “noose”, and get all kinds of hysterical about them – especially in trees.

    1. I was expecting that this would be a false flag sort of incident.
      And it sort of was, as a black man has now come forward admitting that he placed these ropes in the park for purposes of their urban obstacle course.

      But since the mayor Libby Schaaf says “intentions don’t matter” I guess the city will be going after this dude then.

  7. According to the white mayor of Oakland, Victor Sengbe needs to check his privilege

    “What a privilege for those of us that don’t feel complete fear and terror when we see a rope in a tree. That is a privilege that so many of our African American residents do not enjoy and this is a moment that we must be cognizant of that reality. We have got to stop terrorizing our black and brown citizens and as white people, we have to become knowledgable and educated about the impact of our actions, whether they are well-intentioned or not.”

    I hope he doesn’t get too much time.

    1. Why would he be exercising anyway? That seems like a white behavior he’s trying to appropriate. Obeisity rates among non Hispanic Blacks at 38% are the highest in the country and a full 10% above Whites.

  8. In a just world, there’d be consequences for someone who falsely accused a Black man of anti-Black hate crimes. If nothing else, the person would be ridiculed.

    Autoerotic asphyxiation (Google it) exists and large universities will lose a kid to it every few years. It’s more common with younger males, and it is quite deadly. So yes, I’d report a noose as suspicious, but what about the presumption that the authorities have a scintilla of judgement….

    Just a scintilla of it….

    1. Yes, autoerotic asphyxiation fetishists exist.
      Fetishists about having sex in public also exist.
      Fetishists about autoerotic asphyxiation in public, though? Even in a world where Rule 34 is a real thing, that seems far fetched. Occam’s Razor would suggest that this really was just exercise equipment.

      1. There is something called “night” when there are lots of sexual activities that are largely concealed by something known as “darkness.” If you deal with young people long enough, nothing will surprise you anymore — Google “elevator surfing.”

    2. Just hanging around the homestead, watching Kung Fu and listening to INXS.

      1. I keep asking the DJ at our company Christmas party here in S.C. to play Original Sin, but in all these years he’s never gotten around to it. Too bad, great song!

  9. With the current atmosphere,I’m surprised people aren’t reporting white supremacist dog whistle code words spelled out in their alphabet soup.

    This whole thing is reminding me about the Chinese great cultural revolution, where you’re running around denouncing things out of fear that if you’re not leading the charge, you’ll be one of the targets

    And the bar is lowered every day on what constitutes racist, how does one keep up? Start following the most easily offended activist on Twitter?

  10. I can’t help but be vividly reminded of people freaking out over coffee stains in the shape of the Virgin Mary. Its a cult Gene.

  11. For regular commenters, does it worry any of y’all that you put so much time into a community (comments section) where we obviously hate each other? What does it say about any of us that we spend so much time trying to convince strangers who will never agree with us of how wrong they are? This feels unhealthy. I’m concerned about what it says about me.

    Carry on.

    1. Sane people aka rightwing hangouts, the few that there are, have their place. But I also like to spend some time in places with insane or not very intelligent people to understand their pov better. You have to find places with a balance because if its too leftwing usually they’ll just ban or bury you in downvotes.

      In the end its pointless, assh*les are like opinions. To be heard in any significant fashion you have to be a celeb or work your way up to influential commentator and you don’t accomplish either by posting as a random on some forum. To actually make a difference you have to step away from simple rhetoric on or off the computer.

      Lefties for all their faults have always understood this far better than conservatives. While conservatives are wasting time impotently ranting and getting banned on leftwing Sillycon Valley websites or concentrating directly on the ballot box the left has worked in the real world infiltrating key roles to where they now control or intimidate practically every major institution in society.

      For me personally, politics is not my day job. I’m just having fun until we enter a new Dark Age where instead of Donatists, or Gnosticism, or other obscure theological minutiae, everybody obsesses and murders each other over social justice minutiae all day everyday.

      Guess we’re half way there.

    2. My rule of thumb is that if I’m reading and posting because it’ll be fun to dunk on/marvel at the paranoid speculators, or to engage with contrary PoV like with you, it’s good. It’s for me, not for anyone else.

      But basically this year I noticed that I at times find myself switching over to a compulsion to correct people being Wrong on the Internet. That’s when I (in an effort of will) stop posting on that thread for the day, because it’s not fun; it’s actively making me feel frustrated and bad.

    3. re: “we obviously hate each other”

      I don’t think that’s true, NToJ. I, at least, enjoy the comments section because I can often have a substantive debate about details of philosophy, life and law. I may convince one or two people of my position. I sometimes change (or at least moderate) my own opinion. But even when I change neither my own mind nor any other’s, participation here forces me to articulate my position more clearly. I think that participation in the community here makes me a slightly better person.

      Yes, there are some trolls that I try hard to ignore. Occasionally, I weaken and say something snide in the hope that they will go away. And yes, there are some people (okay, a lot of people) who try to be funny and sarcastic but just aren’t very good at it. I would be happier if all our commenters were more sincere. But any community that values free speech must pay the overhead of trolls. Look past them to the subset of good and sincere interactions. It’s worth it.

  12. You are a disgusting racist. I hope this puts an end to your career. Fuck you.

    I know you like to try to turn everything into a drawn out conversation. But I’ve read you for years. This post is enough for me you know you’re a piece of shit.

  13. According to the words of the mayor Libby Schiff, “when it comes to hate crimes, intentions don’t matter”

    Bizaar, as how can we judge the hate in the heart of the perpetrator if the intention, the hate, does not matter?

    Hate crime laws are nothing more than those prosecuting hate crimes are actually unconsciously projecting their own hates and biases onto the thoughts and actions of others. Makes it easier to deal with their own cognitive dissonances.

  14. Whoops. This was supposed to be a top-level comment, not a reply to Dr Ed.
    Trying again.
    ============================================

    Suppose they were nooses. What crime would have been committed by whoever put them up? Littering?! And since it’s not a crime, how can it be a hate crime?

    1. Exactly? And what if they had been burning crosses? So what, that couldn’t possibly have been a crime either…

      1. Actually, a crime in both cases. In the original case, littering. Burning a cross? Can’t burn things in most public places without a burn permit.

        I suppose somebody could visit a park and burn a cross in one of the grills…

  15. I continue to believe that the true reason for “hate crime” laws is to punish terrorist crimes — crimes such as lynchings by the KKK, which were expressly intended not just to harm the person lynched but to scare the public and thus deter behavior by others that the KKK did not want to happen (such as allowing a black person to pass the night in your home, if you lived in a “sundown town”).

    Punishing this motive of bullying third parties is certainly justified, but a better way to do it, in my view, would simply be to let juries draw reasonable inferences about the intentions of the perpetrator whenever a crime does, or attempts to, have that kind of deterrent effect on third parties.

Please to post comments

Judge Jim Ho: "For people of faith demoralized by coercive shutdown policies, that raises a question"

"If officials are now exempting protesters, how can they justify continuing to restrict worshippers? The answer is that they can’t."

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Yesterday I flagged a Corona-related decision by Judge Easterbrook. He upheld a lockdown on a house of worship, even as governments allow protestors to mass in the thousands. Today, the Fifth Circuit decided another Corona-related decision from Louisiana. This case became moot, because the relevant order expired. Judge Jim Ho wrote a four page concurrence, highlighting this inconsistency. It begins:

At the outset of the pandemic, public officials declared that the only way to prevent the spread of the virus was for everyone to stay home and away from each other. They ordered citizens to cease all public activities to the maximum possible extent—even the right to assemble to worship or to protest.

But circumstances have changed. In recent weeks, officials have not only tolerated protests—they have encouraged them as necessary and important expressions of outrage over abuses of government power.

For people of faith demoralized by coercive shutdown policies, that raises a question: If officials are now exempting protesters, how can they justify continuing to restrict worshippers? The answer is that they can't. Government does not have carte blanche, even in a pandemic, to pick and choose which First Amendment rights are "open" and which remain "closed."

Judge Ho questions how protests are exempt, but not worship services:

If protests are exempt from social distancing requirements, then worship must be too. As the United States recently observed, "California's political leaders have expressed support for such peaceful protests and, from all appearances, have not required them to adhere to the now operative 100-person limit. . . . [I]t could raise First Amendment concerns if California were to hold other protests . . . to a different standard." Brief for the United States as Amicus Curiae at 24, Givens v. Newsom, No. 20-15949 (9th Cir. June 10, 2020). The same principle should apply to people of faith. See, e.g., Lukumi, 508 U.S. at 537 ("[Where] individualized exemptions from a general requirement are available, the government may not refuse to extend that system to cases of religious hardship without compelling reason.") (quotations omitted).

Finally, Judge Ho also heavily criticizes Employment Division v. Smith:

Smith has been derided by "[c]ivil rights leaders and scholars . . . as 'the Dred Scott of First Amendment law,'" criticized by "[a]t least ten members of the Supreme Court," and "widely panned as contrary to the Free Exercise Clause and our Founders' belief in religion as a cornerstone of civil society." Horvath, 946 F.3d at 794–95 (Ho, J., concurring in the judgment in part and dissenting in part) (quoting other sources). Smith is troubling because it is of "little solace to the person of faith that a non-believer might be equally inconvenienced." Id. at 796. "For it is the person of faith whose faith is uniquely burdened—the non-believer, by definition, suffers no such crisis of conscience. This recalls Anatole France's mordant remark about 'the majestic quality of the law which prohibits the wealthy as well as the poor from sleeping under the bridges, from begging in the streets, and from stealing bread.'" Id. (quoting ANATOLE FRANCE, THE RED LILY 87 (1910)).

Soon, I expect Judge Easterbrook's decision to be appealed to the Supreme Court. And Chief Justice will find a way to justify the differential treatment.

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  1. Differential treatment? That’s a problem for religious claimants?

    1. You tell us. I mean, literally, you usually do tell us. What’s wrong this time?

      1. Religious claimants can’t get enough differential treatment — special privilege — and Republicans can’t demolish limits on differential treatment fast enough for the conservative base.

        ‘Heads we win, tails you lose’ — religious claimaints can discriminate against anyone and everyone, but no one can discriminate against religious claimants — seems unlikely to be a successful approach over time, particularly for a group that is becoming smaller and less influential.

    2. Seems that if church folk wanna gather outside and pray while moving … then they have a case.
      Otherwise, Ho is wrong.
      Plain and simple.

  2. Racism is a virus worse than Covid19.

  3. The mask is off. The government never cared about anything but furthering its political agenda. At this point Churches will only have themselves to blame if they continue to meekly follow orders.

    1. If churches aren’t careful, they’re headed toward being expected to pay taxes for activities — the country-rock concerts and other entertainment, the day care, the summer camps, the fish fries, the gaming — unrelated to provision of charity.

    2. Good thing there’s a Real Christian in the White House to protect them…

      1. He may be rough around the edges, but his heart is in the right place.

        1. I wouldn’t go that far. More like it’s not stuck in the wrong place solidly enough that he’s willing to suffer political damage just to hurt his own base.

          Which is an improvement over the recent run of Republican Presidents.

  4. So how about the churches label worship as protest?
    Because they are protesting a first amendment violation.

    1. Hilariously, a friend of mine, upset by a local town canceling it’s 4th of July celebration, contacted them and asked if it would be possible to hold a protest on the 4th, and use fireworks during it.

      They got back to him right away. “Absolutely, here are the relevant permits, would you like help in filling them out?”

      He thinks they’re pissed about being forced by folks higher up to cancel the celebration, and are eager to have somebody use any loophole available to hold one.

    2. “So how about the churches label worship as protest?”

      More likely is that more people who have strongly held beliefs will begin to claim the expanding privileges provided to traditional religious claimants.

      Does anyone expect our law to conclude that bigotry and superstition are essential elements to an effective claim of religion-based privilege?

  5. I think it could be explained with the fact that protest are outside and church services are usually held inside.

    1. In some places, churches were banned from holding outside services, even drive-in services. Furthermore, the George Floyd memorial in Minnesota and funeral in Texas were both indoors and were both packed out.

      I think my church might consider defying government rules but, unfortunately, too many members of the congregation are afraid of the virus itself so we’re stuck with restrictions.

      1. What’s unfortunate about it?

        They sound like sensible people to me.

    2. If the governments had published restrictions on that basis and enforced them neutrally, you’re right – that would have been eminently defensible. It would be defensible even if it turned out to be scientifically wrong.

      Sadly, neutral enforcement has little connection to this situation.

    3. Don’t bother Ho with silly things like *facts*.

  6. For it is the person of faith whose faith is uniquely burdened—the non-believer, by definition, suffers no such crisis of conscience

    It is insulting to argue that only religious people can have a conscience. In reality, Ho and Blackman demand special treatment for religious exercise.

    1. The importance some folks place on superstition — my fairy tale is more important than your reasoned conscience, entitled to special privilege — is remarkable.

      The trends are a cause for hope, however.

  7. “Government does not have carte blanche, even in a pandemic, to pick and choose which First Amendment rights are ‘open’ and which remain ‘closed.'”

    I think the correct view is almost the opposite: Gov’t has an *obligation* to protect the people, thus to determine which 1A rights are to be ‘open’ (or constrained) based in part on considerations of expected harm to the people.

    Aside on the writing: IANAL but if the quotes are representative I’m not thrilled with Ho’s approach to argumentation, which appears to rely heavily on style over substance.

    In the quote above, for example, “carte blanche,” “pick and choose,” and the false dichotomy (of a right necessarily being totally open or totally closed), employ 3 different degrees of subtle misstatement so as to point toward the desired, misguided conclusion.

  8. Soon, I expect Judge Easterbrook’s decision to be appealed to the Supreme Court. And Chief Justice will find a way to justify the differential treatment.

    Good lord, the SALT.
    Couldn’t even keep it to the post you created as a dedicated salt mine.

    It makes me think about those who take political setback like this as a chance to scramble for hope, false or no, versus those who wallow in despair for a while.

  9. Ho is right that there’s a legitimate argument for 1A protection for both churches and protest.

    But requiring religious people to obey the same laws atheists have to obey is called equality. I.e., the exact polar opposite of what Taney defended in Dred Scott.

  10. Oh … the stinging cynicism. If only it weren’t warranted!

  11. It’s funny how Employment Division used to be criticized by members on the left and enacted by members on the right … and as the potential litigants changed from Native Americans to Christian’s, everyone changed sides just like that. Shows you the actual commitment to neutrality on behalf of all the judges. None.

    1. Also, professor, you, a supporter of the dream act who sided with Trump on immigration purely as a legal matter, at least based on what you said … are you actually pissed about DACA, or are you pissed about Title IV but don’t want to say so? I think it’s the latter.

    2. I don’t think this was ever the case. Smith was criticized by people on the right from the moment it came out.

  12. I had commented earlier that leniency provided in addressing an impending riot does not mean religious people have to be treated identically.

    Pre-authorizing a protest, however, so that protest is exempt de jure but religion is not, is a radically different situation from dealing with an impending riot.

    In this case, I would agree that Lukumi Bablo Aye applies and triggers strict scrutiny. And under strict scrutiny, judges have to judge on objective criteria offered to support a compelling interest claim like differences in likelihood of infection. Neither they nor the state is allowed to use not value judgments like a belief that protest is more important than religion.

    1. ReaderY….Question for you.

      If strict scrutiny applies (and I agree), what is the remedy for those of us whose free exercise rights have been suppressed?

      1. Courts clearly have authority to enjoin unconstitutional orders. So if a state prohibits religious assemblies but permits assemblies for purposes of protest, then remedy is to enjoin the restriction on religious assemblies, on both Lukumi Bablo Aye and Police v. Newark grounds. (The latter basically says that if a rule is riddled with exceptions, then it isn’t really of universal applicability and religion should get an exception too.)

        I suspect doctrines like qualified immunity would likely prevent damages for past conduct. I suspect an injunction would likely be the only remedy.

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How People from India Almost Became White

The federal government almost classified Asian Indians as white in the 1970s.

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In 1975, the federal government convened an interagency committee to "(1) coordinate development of common definitions for racial and ethnic groups; (2) instruct the Federal agencies to collect racial and ethnic enrollment and other educational data on a compatible and nonduplicative basis." Although the report that spurred the existence of the committee had focused on the lack of uniform definitions of Chicanos, Puerto Ricans, and American Indians, the committee decided that it would make recommendations for racial and ethnic categorizations for the entire American population.

The groups and definitions recommended by the committee form the basis for the groups and definitions we still use today, with one major exception. Here is the committee's recommendation and explanation for the definition of a person in Caucasian/White category:

A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, or the Indian subcontinent. The major problem associated with this category, as with the "Asian.. –" category (above) was how to deal with persons from the Indian subcontinent. The question at issue was whether to include them in the minority category "Asian…" because they come from Asia and some are victims of discrimination in this country, or to include them in this category because they are Caucasians, though frequently of darker skin than other Caucasians. The final decision favored the latter. While evidence of discrimination against Asian Indians exists, it appears to be concentrated in specific geographical and occupational areas. Such persons can be identified in these areas through the use of a subcategory for their ethnic subgroup.

A Indian-American newspaper described what happened next:

In January 1976 … board members of the Association of Indians in America (AIA) and their legal counsel met with the Federal Interagency Committee's representatives in Washington D.C. with the purpose of effecting a change in the Indian classification from the "White" category into the "Asian or Pacific Islander" category. Dr. Manoranjan Dutta, president of the AIA, said that his organization began its campaign for the reclassification in the wake of numerous complaints by Indians of alleged discrimination. According to Dr. Dutta, Indians were not getting equal opportunity in jobs, for example, and any discrimination which they faced was being covered up under the guise of their "White" classification—a sort of "hidden" discrimination. Only if they were classified in the "correct" category of "Asian" could they seek immediate legal redress in cases of discrimination. Furthermore, the Asian category appeared to be more appropriate due to geographical reasons—India is a part of Asia.

In August 1976, a review of the five categories was indeed made, and the Federal Interagency Committee agreed by consensus to move the Indian immigrants from the "White" category to the "Asian and Pacific Islander" category… Dr. Dutta announced later in November of 1976 the finalization of the classification change to the Indian media, but it tended to be largely ignored by the American press.

Interestingly, "another group of Indians, who disagreed with this change, and who preferred that Indians be classified as 'White' in this context, later approached Hall's office to lobby for a return to the 'status quo,' but the effort was in vain, as the group had no data to back up their cause."

The final rule, promulgated by the Office of Management and Budget, did place Indians in the "Asian" category, where they have remained ever since.

The reason that they were put in the white category to begin with has been lost to history, beyond what the report quoted above said. I suspect that part of the issue was that the category used previously for "Asian" was "Oriental," by which people typically meant those from East Asia. Given that the largest relevant groups in the U.S. by far were Chinese, Japanese, and Filipinos, with very few Indians in the U.S. at the time, the committee was likely still used to separating East Asian "Orientals" from others.

In any event, that's how Asian Indians, who had been deemed non-white by the Supreme Court in the days of the Asian Exclusion Act in the 1920s, almost became white in the 1970s.

For what it's worth, it's long been known that the initial committee report placed Indians in the white category and it was then changed to Asian, but I believe I'm the first one to dig up an account of what happened in the interim.

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  1. Government, in exquisite detail uses faux science to identify ‘race’.

    Kind of like the democrats used the 1-drop rule…

  2. Under the Aryan theory – the theory that Indo-European peoples have a common race, just as they have a common language – Indians ARE white people, just like Iranians (linguistically same root as Aryan) are.

    It’s the theory that made the Swastika, a Hindu symbol, the emblem of the Nazi party. It was Ghandi’a argument why South Africa should classify asian Indians as white, not colored, something Professor Volokh blogged about recently.

    In acting as if classifying Asian Indians and Persians as white was some sort of wierd inexplicable coincidence, Professor Bernstein is ignoring the most basic aspects of history, things that a professor at a major law school who purports to be conducting scholarship about racial classifications – especially the history of racial classifications – really, really ought to be expected to know.

    1. Yes, I do know a lot about this, so first of all I know that these categories were not intended to be based on biology, genes, or anthropology; indeed, when the OMB announced the final categories, they said so explicitly. So the Aryan blah blah blah thing is entirely irrelevant, they were trying to figure out which groups needed to have statistics kept for them due to discrimination and economic hardship, not creating a taxonomy of humanity based on science or social science.

      Second, the Supreme Court had considered and explicitly rejected the notion in the 1920s and 30s that “Hindoos” (Indians) were white as a matter of law in the U.S. because they are aryan or caucasian. So, in fact, given that the Supreme Court (upholding the executive branch) had decreed Indians to be “Asians” excludable from the U.S. under the Asian Exclusion Act, in fact the most natural category for Indians for discrimination-statistics-gathering purposes was Asian.

      But please tell me more about the things I’m “expected to know.”

      1. Hmmmm …. you’re expected to know that ReaderY read somebody else’s mind and thought it was you because, why not?

      2. Professor Bernstein,

        The report you quoted explicitly artculated the Aryan theory, stating that the reason for classifying Indians as white is that they are racially Caucasian. (“because they are Caucasians, although frequently of darker skin than other Caucasians.) That’s exactly what the Aryan theory says.

        I think that flatly contradicts your claim that the reason was inexplicable. The fact that you may disagree with or not like the reason doesn’t mean there’s no reason.

  3. I have worked with people from India most of my adult life. They come from very different cultures and backgrounds, and some look just like an average white American, and some don’t. Except for Yahoos of any race, I have not seen very much discrimination against them.
    White. So who cares?

    1. A few have gotten very rich from state and federal contracts they were eligible for as members of a designated minority group. Other than that…

  4. Of course, this is only of concern to racists – – – – – – – –

    1. Well, and the government, but that just confirms it.

  5. Bernstein writes: “I suspect that part of the issue was that the category used previously for ‘Asian’ was ‘Oriental,’ by which people typically meant those from East Asia.”

    Interestingly, on Orwell’s 1984 map of the world more than half of the Indian subcontinent is included in the Mongolian quasi-cultural and racial political entity of “East Asia.” The southern region of India, that was and likely still is more populated by darker-skinned peoples, is designated as belonging to the “Disputed” territories, along with the Arabian Peninsula, the northern half of Africa, and the islands between Asia and Australia.

    The colonial British Raj endeavored to categorize the Indian peoples by racial markers and as they related to the caste system, but today the Indian Government Census doesn’t recognize racial groups (according to Wiki), which seems to imply, although it’s not clear from a really quick search, that this non-designation of race would also apply to India’s non-native immigrants, both from the past and today.

    1. Thanks.

      I note in it the sentence – also referenced elsewhere in this posting and thread – that:
      “While evidence of discrimination against Asian Indians exists, it
      appears to be concentrated in specific geographical and
      occupational areas.”
      This does seem to corroborate my below earlier comment that my experience was perhaps anomalous, w/ discrimination possible in areas where there was less of a concentration of Indians than in the Detroit, Michigan area.

  6. Probably a very minor quibble.

    I remain uncertain about the comment that there were “very few Indians in the U.S. at the time”. It seems to be referring to the committee deliberations in the mid-70’s rather than the treatment in the 20’s. While my experience may be atypical, practicing in Detroit beginning in 1970 and having a good friend there in the academic community at the time, there were a lot of Indians there then.

    At least in the 60’s and 70’s most of the top students in India gravitated toward Engineering. (While perhaps not too far behind, Medicine was less-favored, w/ Law being well down the line.) Since a major sector for engineering was the Automobile Industry, many of them immigrated to the Detroit area, for graduate studies and employment. This though could have been an anomaly as to Indian presence in the U.S. then and not duplicated elsewhere.

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Blue Monday turns into Blue Week, and likely Blue June

Conservatives are 0-5 this week. A new #SCOTUS short list will not help.

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I dubbed June 15, 2020 "Blue Monday." Conservatives went 0-4, losing on guns, immigration, the death penalty, and Title VII. I previously associated June 15 with Magna Carta day, an important day on the calendar for the rule of law. Now, another sentiment occupies that day.

Blue Monday has now turned into Blue Week, with a loss in the DACA case. Conservatives are 0-5. How did President Trump respond? With a promise for another Supreme Court list!

Those sorts of promises are no longer meaningful. And more importantly, they will no longer appeal to donors. I think the latter fact will quickly modify the former strategy.

Alas, I suspect that Blue Week will turn into Blue June. I previously made predictions for assignments. Let me update my predictions.

January Sitting

There were eight cases argued during the January sitting. Only one is outstanding: Espinoza. Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Breyer have not yet written for that sitting. I don't think either Justice is willing to write an opinion that declares Blaine Amendments unconstitutional nationwide. Certainly stare decisis on the Kagan Court requires standing by the longstanding Blaine Amendments. I view either assignment as a defeat for conservatives: either Roberts or Breyer writes a baby-splitting decision that leaves no one happy. I'm not sure what the middle-ground is here, but they'll think of something.

February Sitting

There were nine cases argued during the February sitting. Four are outstanding: Thuraissigiam, Seila Law, Liu, and June Medical. Roberts, Breyer, Alito, Sotomayor have not yet written.

Justice Sotomayor will write Liu v. SEC, an unremarkable criminal law case. And Roberts will assign Thuraissigiam to Justice Alito. I'm sure Roberts is content to narrow the scope of the Suspension Clause, especially in light of his Guantanamo decisions.

The Chief will assign Seila to Justice Breyer, who upholds the CFPB in its entirety. That agency is far too important to cripple before an election. Vice Presidential candidate Warren would love that sort of ruling to run on! And this decision avoids the need to clarify severability doctrine. Muddled doctrine is ideal in John Roberts's multiverse of madness. Meanwhile, here on Planet Earth, courts and lawyers suffer from this lack of clarity. Justice Kavanaugh dissents, and, as he did in the D.C. Circuit, rules that the Court can simply sever the for-cause removal provision. Gorsuch and Alito find that the for-cause provision is not severable and the entire agency is invalid. Justice Thomas argues that severability doctrine violates Article III, and the remedy should be limited to the Plaintiffs' injuries.

Finally, the Chief Justice will write June Medical. My prediction: he concludes the Fifth Circuit disregarded binding precedent in Whole Woman's Health. June will be blue.

If I am right, the only ostensible conservative victory would be Thuraissigiam, which frankly, no one outside the immigration bar will care about beyond.

I'll hold off on making predictions for the remaining 10 cases argued in May. We probably won't see any decisions for those cases in the next two weeks. Will there also be a Blue July? Probably.

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  1. Souter’s Law: The Court naturally drifts left to at least a 4 v 4 split with 1 swing vote. Most Justices since the 60s become more leftwing over time. I’m not sure why PP et al waste so much time and energy throwing a tantrum at every Republican nomination other than just being dumb.

    https(colon slashslash)tinyurl(dot)com(slash)y28k6562

    Theres also a more general rule floating around that states that any organization that does not explicitly frame itself as conservative or rightwing will become more leftist over time. I forget the name though.

    1. Most Justices move left because they don’t have to cater to bigotry any more.

      1. Nah, people, even and especially many people who seem to be intelligent like to move with the crowds. Rather than being renegades they often are champions of the status quo. Things that would have seemed ridiculous to them a few years ago or to people outside the bubble make all the sense in the world with enough of an all pervading environment of reinforcement.

        Even if you’re a high status Justice if all you see on the news is how unjust it is to not have forced cake baking and everyone around you and every book and magazine you open up agrees, and you are bombarded with the message from all directions 24/7 it will have an effect.

        It takes a strong presence of mind to go against the SJW plague especially now that it is virtually a state religion and has near total control of all mainstream media. You see the same phenomenon in Communist countries and other places where one cult ideology monopolizes all the power and communication.

        1. Plus in all honesty all these decisions just show more of the incompetence of the administration than justices political leanings. With the exception of course of the LGBTQ case but honestly Gorsuch wrote a textualist argument there. In general, DACA shows you how badly the administration bungled a case. I am not 100% convinced the court saves abortion rights this term but for the sake of argument lets say they do. If that’s the case only people we can blame is Louisiana itself how can you write a law that was struck down in 2016. Plus why did the 5th circuit uphold it! These 5 judges want to end abortion rights but they won’t do it in a way that goes against the rule of law.

          1. Cut the BS. The administration’s actions had nothing to do with it, and you know it.

    2. That was Robert Conquest, I believe.

  2. I appreciate your work Professor Blackman. Unfortunately, I find it difficult to avoid the conclusion that our government is basically illegitimate and a scam. As a member of the millennial generation, my experience is that most regular folks my age and younger, including many who immigrated from all over the world, will generally agree, even though the vast majority of them possess barely a scintilla of basic knowledge and understanding. Or they just find the question uninteresting and a foregone conclusion. There are exceptions, actually some of the most outwardly patriotic friends I have under 40 who will expressly praise the USA as a country and society and culture, which is a different thing than the government to be sure, are an immigrant from Syria and one from Bosnia.

    As a donor or something stated in one of Podesta’s infamous leaked emails, “we’ve all been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry. The unawareness remains
    strong but compliance is obviously fading rapidly.”

    I also found it notable that President Trump has at this moment released another Supreme Court list and called for votes to get more justices. Actually I find it gobsmacking and highly comical. President Trump is just the most prominent and successful current purveyor of the great scam. Perhaps even wittingly so. Give him four more years! We’ll get even more corporate tax cuts, more national debt, more consolidation of power in a centralized government run by unelected bureaucrats and judges. Or you can look at the other side of the aisle and get all of those very same things, with minor differences like a little bit more taxes and pride flags. Things like immigration reform that maximize the financial interests of the working and white collar classes by limiting labor supply, or trade deals that put America first, will always be just around the corner.

    1. He released a list, got more judges in one term than most presidents get in 2, and conservatives still lost.

      And his solution is to release another list? Lol.

      1. Be careful trying to time political bubbles. Trump has been failing up his entire life.

        Much like markets, Republicans can remain irrational longer than you can stay solvent/alive.

  3. I think this is the closest we will see Josh throw a fit. Calm down… You still got what you wanted a court that leans right. Don’t cry when at times it has to uphold the rule of law. Furthermore you may be wrong. These decisions may come out together because they are the only decisions coming out blue.

  4. I’m tentatively calling this the new “Switch in time”; Only where the first was the Court caving to the party in power, this is the Court caving to the party out of power, but more open to setting things on fire.

    The justices all have things… and don’t want them set on fire.

  5. I do not share the author’s optimism. I predict that many cases will come down against progressiveness and for Trump. These cases are just snacks for liberals before the full conservative meal.

    1. They have already decided the most important cases.

      None of the others are that significant. Even if Blaine Amendments are eradicated, which would be good riddance, that pails in comparison to the effect that has already taken place.

      1. They can still pave the way to outlaw abortion, make the president immune from investigations, give religious organizations a broad exemption to labor laws, and kill the CPFB. Plenty left to do.

        1. Kill the CPFB … yeah that can happen.

          But the ministerial exemption already exists, and it was created essentially unanimously. Religious organizations, everyone agreed, already had some exemptions when it came to religious matters, which made sense, so long as it is consistent with Employment Hand.

          The case at hand extends that exemption somewhat, but not at all significantly.

          Presidential immunity … again everyone, liberals and conservatives, has essentially adopted a form of Scalia’s dissent in Morrison. Hence, Trump will be granted some immunity here. If he wins all cases, yeah that’s a little extreme, but if he wins with, there is some limitation on subpoena power, that’s fairly uncontroversial.

          In other words, the main conservative “victories” are not victories but just an affirmation of a consensus, and the consensus happened, in these areas, to have fallen on the conservative side. That’s not helpful when the consensus is overwhelmingly liberal. And the abortion case is far from overturning Roe.

          1. They religious want a ministerial exemption that applies to all of their employees. That would strip labor law protections from many workers in hospitals and universities who do not religious work. That is pretty controversial.

            Presidential immunity would overturn decades of precedent and is very scary to those who don’t like dictators.

            The abortion case would make it very hard to challenge future abortion clinic restrictions, and many states will jump on the chance to regulate them out of existence.

  6. Didn’t Prof. Blackman indicate he would begin to read and digest Supreme Court decisions before opining?

    Less than a week later, he’s offering his analyses before the cases are decided.

    1. Open wider, Rev.

      1. Why? Are you and Prof. Blackman about to unleash a crossfire hurricane of conservative effectiveness that reverses the tide of the American culture war?

        Precisely which elements of America’s liberal-libertarian progress do you expect clingers to dismantle? School prayer coming back? Gay-bashing to resume? Abortion criminalized? Consumer protections eliminated? Obamacare dismantled? Creationism returning to legitimate classrooms? Environmental protections dismantled? Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security abandoned? Black men compelled to lower their gaze in the company of white women?

  7. I previously associated June 15 with Magna Carta day, an important day on the calendar for the rule of law. Now, another sentiment occupies that day.

    Really? You think these cases outweigh the Magna Carta in importance?

  8. I’ve decided, as a conservative, that it was totally worth it to lose significantly this week at the supreme court to see Josh lose his mind

  9. Alternative prediction: Chief writes Seila Law, rejecting CFPB along the lines of Kavanaugh’s D.C. Circuit opinion. Breyer writes WWH, and Chief provides that opinion the fifth vote.

  10. Forget the Left, it’s time for conservatives to consider court packing…

    1. That ain’t enough. Unless conservatives start using the left’s tactics, that is, threats, violence, assaults, fires, riots, and general mayhem, they’re going to lose.

  11. President Trump also tweeted this, “Do you get the impression that the Supreme Court doesn’t like me? — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 18, 2020.”

    Holy crap, you guys voted for a 14 year old.

    But we already knew that.

  12. I don’t think the failures in the Supreme Court have much to do with Right or Left leaning appointees. I believe the failure is in the continuous appointment of yet another member of the BAR Association robed in statutory process.

    1. Yeah, pretty much: At this point the left has enough influence over the legal community that finding potential justices who wouldn’t end up like Roberts is a really, really tough task. It’s made harder by the fact that a lot of ‘conservative’ groups don’t actually care about much of the conservative program, having been captured by the institutional Republican party.

      I wish Elon Musk the best of luck with his space colonization ventures, I think we really need the opportunity to get off this planet to where we can found alternative societies without having to find some way to take over existing ones. Probably the only hope for peace is to go out own separate ways, and get far enough apart we’re not in each other’s faces all the time.

      A pity it didn’t happen before the left was so dominant.

      1. Oh, spare me. Roberts only votes the way you like 95% of the time? Cry me a river.

        1. Fuck off. You’re being as intellectually dishonest as the “Only 3% of PP’s services are abortions” people.

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Understanding Chief Justice Roberts's DACA Decision

CJ Roberts rejects the A&C analysis of the 2nd, 9th, and D.C. Circuits, and tentatively embraces the 5th Circuit's analysis about DACA's benefits

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I have been writing about DACA since I began teaching in 2012. For nearly eight years, I have had to explain a single fact over and over and over again: the deferred action policies were unlawful because they conferred federal benefits; not because they deferred deportations. Early on in the DAPA litigation, Texas conceded that DHS could issue "do not deport" cards. Texas's objection concerned the fact that DACA, and later DAPA, allowed the federal government to grant a host of federal benefits, such as work authorization.

Yet, this simple fact has always been ignored–with good reason. It is far more powerful to raise the specter of deporting Dreamers, then merely taking away their work authorization. Most Dreamers were never a priority for removal. As we are often reminded, the federal government can only deport about 400,000 a year. DACA was always about granting the Dreamers work authorization.

Over the past five years, I have filed several briefs on behalf of the Cato Institute drawing this distinction: DHS had the authority to defer the deportations, but not to grant the benefits. (See pp. 18-21 of our Supreme Court brief). And this argument has consistently fallen on deaf ears.

Now, the most unlikely candidate has breathed life into our position: Chief Justice Roberts. He recognized that the benefits element of DACA was separate from forbearance of removal. And he did not agree with the 2nd, 9th, and D.C. Circuits that the conferral of these benefits was lawful. Instead, he seemed to agree with the 5th Circuit that the conferral of benefits was unlawful. (More on that point later).

But then we get the John Roberts special: because the forbearance of removal provision was permissible, the Secretary acted arbitrarily and capriciously for rescinding the entire DACA policy. In effect, Roberts applied a severability analysis: the unlawful portion of DACA (conferral of benefits) should have been severed from the permissible portion (forbearance). And because the Secretary did not sever the DACA memo appropriately, the entire rescission was unlawful. (If this sort of analysis is applied to the ACA case, Congress's failure to properly repeal the individual mandate would render all of Obamacare unconstitutional–mostly joking.)

The Chief's standard exceeds even the strictest scrutiny I have seen in equal protection cases. Every government gets some degree of latitude, even when dealing with fundamental or enumerated rights. But the failure to adopt the precise legal analysis Chief Justice Roberts adopted, which had been heretofore unknown, renders the policy arbitrary and capricious. We saw a similar mode of analysis last year in the Census case. But here, the A&C standard was upgraded to an electron microscope–a single molecule out of place, and the Chief orders a remand.

I will write a subsequent post that analyzes these points in some detail. But this post should provide a high-level overview of my thoughts.

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  1. I still wonder how DACA authorizes in-state tuition.

    1. Isn’t that up to each state?

  2. Here’s a question.

    Since the forbearance on being deported was prosecutorial discretion being utilized, if it stood on its own, would it be reviewable?

  3. “In effect”

    Why do I get the feeling these two words are doing overtime on a holiday work?

  4. What the courts are doing is letting the “chicken” game between Congress and Trump continue. Trump has rightly said that Congress should pass legislation dealing with the DACA arrivals, then he will sign the concensus legislation. The House won’t pass legislation because they know they can’t get everything they want and they want to use it as a campaign issue. The Senate won’t pass a bill because it needs 60 votes, and there isn’t any 60 vote concensus in the Senate.

    This decision actually helps Trump because it removes DACA as a high profile campaign issue.

    But I do think the courts are increasing the disfunction in government by allowing presidents to circumvent Congress and the law by executive order, but I’m pretty sure Trump’s executive won’t recieve the same deference after he leaves office.

    1. I agree that it may help Trump. If he leaves it alone. technically this decision is just telling the Trump administration you can end the program just do it correctly. I have a feeling they may begin the process of ending the program which will become a campaign issue. Plus if he likes the program and wants to sign it into law why then push to have it end? It may very well be that he is attempting to use this to limit Asylum, fund his border wall, and limit legal immigration as a whole. No way democrats ever take that poison pill.

  5. I am no admin law scholar, but it sure looks like it was arbitrary and capricious because the only justification originally offered was that DACA was illegal. If only half of DACA was illegal, that doesn’t work. The later justifications were post hoc and were not supposed to be considered.

    That has zero to do with severability or the Obamacare case. It’s just a requirement that you have to offer a justification that actually justifies what you do, and not something else you could have done but didn’t.

    1. If half of it was illegal, and the other half was purely an exercise of discretion, and neither half was adopted with APA procedures,, why wouldn’t the whole thing be subject to being discontinued?

      Trump: “OK, we’re just discontinuing the illegal part, and as for the discretionary part, we’re exercising our discretion differently now.”

    2. If a policy is illegal and violates the law, that’s an excellent justification to end the policy.

      If only “half” the policy is illegal, then the proper course of action is for the courts to either strike down the entire policy, or if its severable, strike down the illegal half.

      If half the policy is illegal, it seems very odd not to allow the administration to strike down the illegal half, because it didn’t justify the part that wasn’t illegal.

      1. One problem is that the Court wasn’t asked to affirm striking down the illegal half. But I agree with your first point. Arbitrary and capricious is a stretch here. Government shouldn’t have to say or do more than point to some (here a large) part of the action that is unlawful, to avoid A&C.

      2. Sure – but you need to show your work as to why it’s illegal.

    3. I agree. Furtheremore, Roberts let stand the work authorizations and the Social Security benefits. If Josh was right he would have struck down these benefits as unconstitutional.

    4. If the Obama adminsitration didn’t have the authority to issue the policy—and as best I can tell, the opinion concludes that such a conclusion would have been reasonable—it’s hard for me to see why they were required to evaluate alternatives to scrapping the policy altogether. I also have a lot of trouble seeing how the half that was not illegal is subject to the APA at all. (That was, in my view, by far the least persuasive part of the opinion.) And if it is, then it seems like the Obama administration’s failure to follow the APA is itself a basis for the Trump adminsitration to conclude that that part was illegal as well.

      1. Or, alternatively, politicians who want to reverse policies should provide a memorandum saying their actual reasons for doing so. So a court can then review them.

        A lot of the problems in these sorts of cases come from agencies not getting their stories straight. Getting them straight is not an onerous requirement.

        1. The agency got their story straight. The agency’s boss said the agency action was unlawful. Some parts of it might have been lawful but so what? Arbitrary and capricious is a high standard.

          Practically speaking what are you asking the agency to do? If an agency action has 100 components, 50 of which are unlawful and 50 of which aren’t, does the agency have to explain away abandonment of all 50 lawful? Why? If they hit 49 out of 50 what happens? Where would you cut off arbitrary and capricious? Here it feels like 50%, which should be enough.

          DHS should be allowed to shit the bed. I don’t even think they shit the bed here. This is not respect for a coordinate branch, in my view, and the APA doesn’t require this much scrutiny.

          1. There were only a few components here. Nothing onerous at all.

            1. Arbitrary and capricious is not about whether the standard unmet by the government was onerous. Courts should not casually substitute their own judgment for the agency. As an example, substantial evidence (the typical factual standard of review for agency actions) is incredibly low.

        2. Accidentally flagged this. Really pissed off at mobile site.

    5. “but it sure looks like it was arbitrary and capricious because the only justification originally offered was that DACA was illegal. If only half of DACA was illegal, that doesn’t work.”

      Why not? DACA was a single policy. How is it wrong to stop enforcement of a policy because it’s only half illegal?

      “That has zero to do with severability”

      It’s more like selective-severability, where whether the DACA is treated in whole or in part depends on what’s needed to get the desired result.

      “It’s just a requirement that you have to offer a justification that actually justifies what you do”

      So why aren’t the parts that Trump did justify terminated?

  6. But then we get the John Roberts special: because the forbearance of removal provision was permissible, the Secretary acted arbitrarily and capriciously for rescinding the entire DACA policy.

    Worth noting is that the dissent had its own “special”: that, because the federal benefits could be removed, so could forbearance. It seems at least as much worth noting – although of course your brief did take the opposite position.

  7. If half the policy is illegal, it seems very odd not to allow the administration to strike down the illegal half, because it didn’t justify the part that wasn’t illegal.

    If’ I’m reading the decision correctly, it didn’t say that either were necessarily illegal (although it suggested that the benefits might be); it was more about the process that the Trump administration went through on both issues being insufficient.

    1. Yea the decision seemed to state that the illegal portion which was the expansion of DACA and the implementation of DAPA which have already been struck in prior decisions.

  8. I think he is reading too much into benefits. In immigration law an individual that has been barred from deportability almost always gets work authorization. Which by extension it should mean that the DACA kids would get work authorizations.

    1. DACA wasn’t passed through immigration law though. It was passed through a version of prosecutorial discretion (we just won’t deport these people for now)

      1. There is a Non-Lpr cancellation of removal. Essentially if you have been here 10 years you can stay and they will give you work authorization. It has been going on for ages. Usually an immigration judge grants it.

    2. Not being deported isn’t being barred from deportability.

  9. Prof. Blackman you’re being a little harsh. It’s arbitrary and capricious because the agency did not consider the alternatives. The agency had to consider the alternatives since the rule was severable. It’s potentially irrelevant that the agency did not know the rule should have been severed. As long as the rule is in fact severable, the agency has failed to contemplate reasonable alternatives. Just throwing that out there, with the full knowledge that I may not completely understand severability.

  10. It’s all a bit odd. Let’s turn this on its head for a second.

    Let’s say Biden is elected, and on January 1st, Trump puts the “Family separation order” into effect, which mandates family separations for illegal immigrants and returns illegal immigrant families to normal discretion for law enforcement.

    Then Biden comes in on January 4th, and says “Separating families is so illegal. Reverse that, and return non-violent children to the lowest level of priority for ICE”

    But someone sues the Biden order, keeping the Trump order (family separations) in effect for 3 years. Then it finally gets to SCOTUS, and SCOTUS says…”Yeah, family separations are illegal and wrong. But you didn’t put the prioritization change through the APA process, so it’s arbitrary. So the Trump policy stands”.

    1. Or: Trump issues an executive order declaring that illegal immigrants arrested for any federal offense must be held without bail, and that DOJ needs to create a website listing all the arrests. Biden (or Attorney General Schiff) rescinds the order, saying that it violates the Bail Reform Act. After three years of stays, the Supreme Court says the order has to stay, because they didn’t explain why they were also taking down the website.

      1. I think the court meant your reason was bullshit which is why it was Arbitrarely and Capricious. I think if the adminisration attempts again it will be upheld.

  11. “Most Dreamers were never a priority for removal. ”

    If you’re making some claim about Texas, Ok, but that should be made clear.

    Because since 2016, the head of the federal executive has been ranting about it and otherwise making it pretty plain that he considers it a priority. (He started ranting about them well before he became the head, in case there was any confusion.)

    If we’re supposed to assume this is a “Donsion”, that still seems to fly in the face of what actually happened:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_Action_for_Childhood_Arrivals#Rescission

    One wonders what Blackman thinks a priority looks like.

    1. Repealing DACA wouldn’t have made them priorities for removal any more than they were priorities for removal before DACA.

      1. Except that unlike before DACA, ICE knows exactly where they live and work.

        1. That just makes them easier to remove. It doesn’t make them priorities. But that is a good reason for not participating in the program in the first place.

  12. Roberts has become the reliable 5 th vote for the left wing of SCOTUS. His colleagues on that half are pleased to have him write the opinion, because he has demonstrated a special skill in contrived reasoning. Roberts hopes that his ploy will save SCOTUS from being packed with two more left-wing justices once Biden wins in November.
    But he is naive if he thinks that even one 5-4 decision he makes against the leftist branch will not bring out strident calls for court-packing.

  13. I agree the opinion makes no sense.

    If DACA was a lawful exercise of discretion, then undoing it was also a lawful exercise of discretion.

    And if undoing a lawfully promulgated DACA required notice and comment, then promulgating it in the first place required notice and comment, and doing it without those procedures was unlawful.

    I think Chief Justice Roberts simply started emeith the result he wanted and worked backwards.

    He could have gotten the same result without damage to the law simply by relisting to the next term in hopes an election would intervene in the meanwhile. I’m surprised he didn’t.

    1. are you sure promulgating required notice and comment? I have only heard the ending of it to require notice and comment.

  14. Always great to see another meeting of Libertarians For Authoritarian, Bigoted, Cruel Immigration Policies And Practices conducted at an “often libertarian” blog.

    1. It is less than interesting to read your oft repeated papp. You’re the king of the clingers.

  15. “… which had been heretofore unknown…”

    What about State Farm 463 U. S. 29? I think that case (like this one) is also wrong, but it’s the same ballpark. Failure to consider an alternative is fatal.

  16. Just as Dred Scott was one more step toward civil war, these decisions will be remembered in a similar vein.

    1. I hope so. I don’t know why more conservatives aren’t giddy about the idea of a civil war.

    2. Dred Scott, right, you’re a completely reasonable person. Great comparison. I thought the Supreme Court got NCAA v Board of Regents wrong and can’t believe the Republic has survived this long. If they issue one more decision I disagree with, we are inching closer to rebellion.

  17. The court determined that DACA is illegal but the process to rescind DACA was improper so the illegal order remains in place. Sane people lose more ground every day.

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Free Speech

"Assessing the Government's Lawsuit Against John Bolton"

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A very detailed and thoughtful item by Profs. Jack Goldsmith & Marty Lederman at Just Security; it's a factually and legally complicated area, which I don't know enough about, but on which they are experts. An excerpt from the opening:

The U.S. government filed a civil suit on June 17 against former National Security Advisor John Bolton.  It primarily seeks (i) an injunction against the planned June 23 publication of Bolton's book, The Room Where it Happened: A White House Memoir; and (ii) a "constructive trust" that would give the United States the right to all of Bolton's profits from the book.  The case has been assigned to Judge Royce Lamberth of the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.

This post explains the case and offers our initial thoughts.  The big news to us about the government's case is that it's weaker than we expected.  We should emphasize, however, that these views are preliminary and incomplete.  The case implicates a complex and in some ways unsettled area of law.  [UPDATE: Less than an hour after we published this post, the government filed a motion for Judge Lamberth to issue a Temporary Restraining Order–one that would prohibit not only Bolton himself, but also Simon & Schuster and "[c]ommercial resellers further down the distribution chain, such as booksellers," from selling or distributing The Room Where it Happened.  The classified and unclassified declarations filed with that motion might (or might not) affect the outcome of the case.  We hope to discuss this important development in a follow-up post soon.]

The Relevant Contract (Nondisclosure Agreement) Terms

The most important thing to understand about the case is that the government is suing Bolton for a breach of contract—two contracts, in fact.  As the government's complaint describes, the contracts in question are "nondisclosure agreements" (NDAs) that Bolton signed on April 5, 2018, when he entered government service as National Security Advisor.  These NDAs are included as attachments to the complaint….

The first NDA, Standard Form 312, contains obligations Bolton assumed as a condition of obtaining access to classified information generally, i.e., a "security clearance."  Two are pertinent here.  First, Bolton agreed that he must never "divulge classified information to anyone" unless he either "officially verifies] that the recipient has been properly authorized by the United States Government to receive it" or he's received "prior written notice of authorization [to divulge it] from the United States Government" entity responsible for its classification.  Second, he agreed that if he's "uncertain about the classification status" of any information, he must "confirm from an authorized official that the information is unclassified before [he] may disclose it" to anyone not authorized to receive it.  We'll refer to this second obligation as the SF-312 prepublication review requirement, although, as we explain below, it's actually something less than that—it's more like a simple "confirmation" requirement.

The second NDA, Standard Form 4414, set the conditions of Bolton's access to a more sensitive subset of "Special Access Programs" classified information, commonly known as Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI).  It requires Bolton to submit to a security review by the National Security Council (NSC) "any writing . . . that contains or purports to contain any SCI or description of activities that produce or relate to SCI or that I have reason to believe are derived from SCI, that I contemplate disclosing to any person not authorized to have access to SCI or that I have prepared for public disclosure."  It further provides that he "will not disclose the contents of such preparation with, or show it to, anyone who is not authorized to have access to SCI until I have received written authorization from the Department or Agency that last authorized my access to SCI that such disclosure is permitted."  We'll call this the SF-4414 prepublication review requirement….

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  1. Isn’t this what Bradley/Chelsea Manning went to prison for?

    1. No, you don’t go to prison for breaching an NDA.

      1. Much as it gals me to agree with Dr. Ed, if Bolton did violate this particular NDA (a question on which I express no opinion), he very likely violated 18 U.S.C. §  793(e), which was indeed incorporated into one of the specifications against Manning.

        1. “… relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation…” §  793(e)

          Man, that seems like a real reach to me. In re Manning? Sure, I could see it. But for Bolton? I have not yet read of his book. But it’s hard for me to see Bolton writing about conversations he had/overheard, that (a) relate to nat’l defense, (b) are still timely enough to injure the USA or benefit another country, AND (c) managed to get past the normal review process.

          It’s possible, of course. But I assume a court can’t order prior restraint without Trump being able to point to specific examples. (I assume that any judge hearing this type of case would have to have the highest levels of security clearance, right? Cuz it would be impossible for a judge to rule without the specifics. And the govt will argue that only people with security clearances can see or hear this evidence.)

          Man, Trump goes to a lot of effort to keep Americans from knowing the truth about a lot of things. I get him lying about releasing his taxes. I get him lying about how eager he was to testify regarding his crimes re Ukraine. And I guess I get why he’s trying to keep us in the dark about this. But hiding the truth from us seems to occupy about 80% of those rare parts of the day when he’s not sleeping, eating, cheating on his wife, or rage-tweeting.

          1. “But hiding the truth from us seems to occupy about 80% of those rare parts of the day when he’s not sleeping, eating, cheating on his wife, or rage-tweeting.”

            You forgot golfing and watching TV. I mean, he spends a lot of time golfing and watching TV.

            Of course, he still rage-tweets while watching TV and golfing, so it’s not mutually exclusive.

      2. “you don’t go to prison for breaching an NDA.”

        Unless it’s backed by a court order. Then you got criminal contempt.

  2. Bolton has a simple (and likely true) defense: its a work of fiction.

    1. Yup. If I have to decide on picking between two people, in picking which one is lying; I’m definitely gonna side with Donald Trump, A paragon of virtue. A man who has lived a life of integrity and honor, and a person that has a decades-long history of tolerance, honesty, and an overall aura of goodness that surrounds him.

      Yup. I can foresee no problem with anyone making this argument.

  3. The bell is rung, the cat is out of the bag, the ship has sailed.

    Choose your metaphor. … the point is, I doubt Bolton cares much about money at this age he cares about notoriety, and whether the allegations are true or false, Bolton played Trump like a fiddle. The lawsuit only adds gasoline to the Streisand Effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

    In a world where the news is mostly COVID, riots, and looting, Bolton would have been page 15 had the Trump admin not saved him with an ill-conceived lawsuit.

    1. This is why Trump is trying to grab the money. First he pumped up the value of the book by trying to suppress it, then he grabs the proceeds. He absolutely LOVES the idea of taking the money that somebody else did all the work to earn.

  4. What bothers me is just the casual way these ‘swamp creatures’ (Obama got burned by people too) just disregard the legal contracts they signed, with impunity. Don’t like the government upholding the contract? Ok, just leak it to the press. What are these people thinking?

    It used to be that when you signed a contract, that agreement was sacrosanct. Somewhere along the line, this cultural more changed. That is not right.

    1. “It used to be that when you signed a contract, that agreement was sacrosanct.”

      When and what is your factual basis for this?

      1. Heh. I’d put it a more cynical way, as advice I’d give anyone running for office (and again, if they won their election):

        “People have gone to work in the White House and have written books about it since forever. So, for ANY president; just suck it up. Stop whining like a spoiled brat. Stop complaining like a privileged snot-nosed baby. You’re the most powerful and important person in the world. And now, people are gonna say a few mean things about you. Mostly true things. Some things that are not true. Some that are only partly true. SUCK IT UP, SNOWFLAKE. Just accept that, among the many many many many many many many many benefits to being president, there is the downside that people who work for you will later say those mean things. Did I already mention: SUCK IT UP, SNOWFLAKE?”

        People wrote lots of bad things about Obama. And W. Bush. And Clinton. Etc etc etc etc. Only Trump immediately reverted to his comfort zone of Aggrieved Entitled Sensitive Asshole.

      2. Everybody knows contract law didn’t start to develop until the late 1990s.

    2. You mean like Trump’s marriages? Or his campaign security bills he refuses to pay? Or his contracts with workers he’s refused to pay? Or perhaps his contract with the American people to put the country first, and not his own vanity and narcissism?

      Those contracts?

  5. The funny thing is watching just how far the Trump corruption has rotted the GOP. I mean, look at these comments!

    No person should defend John Bolton. He has an expansive and dangerous view of American power that combines aggression and isolation; very few people have so potent a mix of disdain for allies and bellicosity toward rivals.

    That said, no one has ever questioned his integrity. He might be a warmongering POS, but he’s always been open about that.

    For people to rush forward and say, “Yeah, that Bolton guy is a liar. Not like Trump, the paragon of truthfulness ….”

    You can’t get any stupider than that. Well, I say that now, but I will be wrong.

    1. “You can’t get any stupider than that. Well, I say that now, but I will be wrong.”

      I’m pretty sure that Mr. Trump has already composed the tweet that will disprove it.

Please to post comments

DACA

Thoughts on the Supreme Court's Sound, but Very Narrow Ruling on DACA [Updated]

The decision is only a temporary reprieve for DACA recipients, and still permits Trump or a future president to repeal the program if he is willing to pay the political price of doing so.

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Today's Supreme Court ruling is a victory for DACA recipients, but a very limited one. The Supreme Court correctly concluded that the Trump administration's shoddy rationale for rescinding DACA violated the Administrative Procedure Act because it failed to offer any justification for repealing the central element of the DACA program: forbearance on deportation of undocumented immigrants who were brought to the United States as children. But Trump or a future president could still rescind DACA if they are willing to offer such a justification in the future and pay the political price of doing so. For that reason, I strongly agree with co-blogger Jonathan Adler's view that this is a very narrow decision.

Today's ruling does not definitively end either the legal or the political battle over DACA. Ultimately, only Congress can do that, by finally passing a law definitively protecting "Dreamers" from deportation and giving them permanent resident status in the United States. Until then, they will not be fully safe.

The Court's decision addresses the legality of the Trump administration's decision to rescind DACA, an Obama administration policy suspending deportation of some 800,000 undocumented immigrants who came to the United States as children. DACA allows such migrants (often referred to as "Dreamers," after the Dream Act, which failed to pass Congress) to stay in the U.S. as long as they arrived in the  country when they were 15 years old or younger, were 30 or younger when the program began in 2012, have not been convicted of any crimes as of the time they apply for the program, and have either graduated from a U.S. high school, are currently enrolled in school, or have served in the armed forces. In addition to suspending deportation, the program also allows DACA recipients to obtain authorization for work in the US and accrue "lawful presence."

The majority opinion by Chief Justice John Roberts concludes that the administration's rescission of DACA was illegal, because it violated the Administrative Procedure Act's requirement that federal agency decisions may not be "arbitrary and capricious." As Roberts recognizes, this is a very permissive standard. But, in this case, the Department of Homeland Security fell short of it because its rationale for ending DACA relied on the notion that the program's work authorization and law presence provisions are illegal, while failing to offer any justification for abolishing its central feature—"forbearance" from deportation:

In short, the Attorney General [in his opinion on the legality of DACA] neither addressed the forbearance policy at the heart of DACA nor compelled DHS to abandon that policy. Thus, removing benefits eligibility while continuing forbearance remained squarely within the discretion of Acting Secretary Duke, who was responsible for "[e]stablishing national immigration enforcement policies and priorities." 116 Stat. 2178, 6 U. S. C. §202(5). But Duke's memo offers no reason for terminating forbearance. She instead treated the Attorney General's conclusion regarding the illegality of benefits as sufficient to rescind both benefits and forbearance, without explanation….

Even if it is illegal for DHS to extend work authorization and other benefits to DACA recipients, that conclusion supported only "disallow[ing]" benefits…. It did "not cast doubt" on the legality of forbearance or upon DHS's original reasons for extending forbearance to childhood arrivals….Thus, given DHS's earlier judgment that forbearance is "especially justified" for "productive young people" who were brought here as children and "know only this country as home," App. to Pet. for Cert. 98a–99a, the DACA Memorandum could not be rescinded in full "without any consideration whatsoever" of a forbearance-only policy,

If anything qualifies as "arbitrary and capricious," it is failure to provide a rationale for repealing the policy "at the heart" of the program the administration wanted to rescind.

The Department of Homeland Security did offer some policy rationales for rescinding forbearance on deportation in a memorandum issued many months after its initial decision to rescind. However, the Court concludes that the APA requires the agency to put forward its reasons at the time a policy change is made. Thus, the arguments in the later DHS memorandum "can be viewed only as impermissible post hoc rationalizations and thus are not properly before us."

The requirement of a contemporaneous explanation may seem like arbitrary formalism. But the Court points out some good reasons for it:

Requiring a new decision before considering new reasons promotes "agency accountability," Bowen v. American Hospital Assn., 476 U. S. 610, 643 (1986), by ensuring that parties and the public can respond fully and in a timely manner to an agency's exercise of authority. Considering only contemporaneous explanations for agency action also instills confidence that the reasons given are not simply "convenient litigating position[s]." Christopher v. Smith Kline Beecham Corp., 567 U. S. 142, 155 (2012)…. Permitting agencies to invoke belated justifications, on the other hand, can upset "the orderly functioning of the process of review," SEC v. Chenery Corp., 318 U. S. 80, 94 (1943), forcing both litigants and courts to chase a moving target. Each of these values would be markedly undermined were we to allow DHS to rely on reasons offered nine months after [Acting Secretary] Duke announced the rescission and after three different courts had identified flaws in the original explanation.

The majority opinion also concludes that the administration failed to properly consider the "reliance interests" of DACA recipients, in making its rescission decision.

In the lead dissent, Justice Clarence Thomas, joined by Alito and Gorsuch, argues that DACA was illegal, and that provides sufficient justification for rescission. He argues that even the "forbearance" aspect of DACA is illegal because the Obama administration lacked the power to adopt "programmatic" exemptions from deportation, as opposed by "case by case" determinations. For reasons I summarized here and here, this distinction between systematic  and "case-by-case" enforcement discretion makes little sense:

[T]he difference between case by case examination and categorical rules is one of degree, not kind. Unless case by case discretion is completely arbitrary, it must be guided by some sort of generalizable criteria, such as the severity of the offense. And if general rules like this can be applied by low-level law enforcement offenders handling particular cases, they can also be applied systematically by the president, their ultimate superior.

In any event, the administration's rationale for rescinding DACA did not rely on this argument.

In a solo dissent, Justice Brett Kavanaugh contended that the Court should have accepted the later DHS memorandum, because "post hoc" rationales are only forbidden when offered by lawyers in litigation, not when developed by the administration. The majority has what I think is a good response to that argument:

JUSTICE KAVANAUGH asserts that this "foundational principle of administrative law," Michigan, 576 U. S., at 758, actually limits only what lawyers may argue, not what agencies may do…. While it is true that the Court has often rejected justifications belatedly advanced by advocates, we refer to this as a prohibition on post hoc rationalizations, not advocate rationalizations, because the problem is the timing, not the speaker. The functional reasons for requiring contemporaneous explanations apply with equal force regardless whether post hoc justifications are raised in court by those appearing on behalf of the agency or by agency officials themselves.

The Court's decision strikes me as correct, in so far as it goes. But it is a very narrow ruling. It does not prevent Trump or a future president from rescinding DACA in the future. Indeed, as a legal matter, doing so would be relatively easy. All Trump would have to do is have DHS issue a new rescission memorandum that explicitly cites some policy rationale for abolishing forbearance on deportation. Alternatively, it could potentially abolish employment authorization and "lawful presence," while leaving forbearance alone.

In my view, deporting the DACA recipients would be both deeply unjust and harmful to our economy and society. But satisfying the APA's "arbitrary and capricious" standard does not require a good or even reasonable justification. It just has to meet very minimal standards of plausibility. Competent DHS staff could almost certainly come up with something that qualifies.

The main constraint on the administration's options here is political, not legal. DACA is a very popular program, and even a president as hostile to immigration as Trump might not want to abolish it in a way that requires the administration to explicitly say they want to deport the Dreamers, as opposed to hiding behind technical legal arguments. Perhaps the administration is unwilling to pay that political price, especially in an election year.

Political considerations aside, the narrowness of the ruling and the ease with which the administration could potentially get around it should allay concerns that the decision will make it difficult for future presidents to reverse predecessor's executive actions. They can still do so as long as they meet fairly minimal procedural standards.

The Supreme Court majority opinion also does not resolve the issue of whether the employment authorization and lawful presence elements of DACA are legal or not. These questions may well continue to be litigated in the lower courts.  I have previously argued that the employment authorization provision is clearly legal, while the "lawful presence" provision is more questionable, but can easily—if necessary- be severed from the rest of DACA. But these issues remain unsettled, and could even potentially return to the Supreme Court, should DACA remain in force under Trump—or should a future administration reinstate DACA after Trump rescinds it again.

Finally, an 8-1 majority of the justices (with only Sonia Sotomayor dissenting) rejected the plaintiffs' argument that DACA rescission was unconstitutional because it was motivated by discriminatory animus against Hispanic immigrants, and therefore violated the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

I think Justice Sotomayor makes some good points in her solo dissent on this issue. She is correct to argue that, under Supreme Court precedent, Trump's bigoted statements against Latino immigrants during the 2016 election provide evidence of discriminatory motive that shifts the burden of proof to the government—requiring them to show they would have enacted the same policy even aside from the illegal motivation. But, here, I don't think it would be difficult to prove that.

The belief that DACA is illegal is a longstanding and widely held view among conservative Republicans. It is not something that arose merely as a justification for acting on bigoted statements Trump made during the 2016 campaign. I think that view is wrong. But that doesn't make it a mere pretext for bigotry. Had a more conventional Republican won the 2016 election—even one who is himself Hispanic, such as Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio—there is a good chance they would have tried to rescind DACA, as well.

This history makes DACA repeal different from the 2018 travel ban case, where the policy at issue clearly grew out of Trump's notorious campaign promise to enact a "Muslim ban," the official justification for it was transparently bogus, and it is highly unlikely that anything like it would have been enacted in the absence of Trump's unconstitutional motive. The Court was disastrously wrong about the discrimination issue in the travel ban case. But it is on much sounder ground here.

I am not entirely sure even Justice Sotomayor would actually conclude that DACA repeal is unconstitutional based on discriminatory motivation. Her opinion merely concludes that the issue should have been remanded for further consideration by the trial court, at which point the administration could  potentially have addressed the issue by making the sort of argument I described above.

In sum, today's ruling is an important, but very limited victory for DACA and the Dreamers. The latter have reason to celebrate. But their safety still remains in doubt. Trump or a future president could still potentially rescind DACA, and today's decision creates little in the way of legal obstacles to doing so. Only congressional action can truly free the Dreamers from the spectre of deportation.

UPDATE: In the initial version of this post, I misread Justice Thomas' dissent as accepting the legality of the forbearance element of DACA. I apologize for the mistake, which has now been corrected. I have also added a brief explanation of why I think Thomas is wrong on that issue.

 

 

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  1. This is driving while black enforcement of picayune procedural minutiae. The Trump administration must follow every rule to the letter and be judged against an extreme pedantic standard. The courts blithely defer to the Obama Administration even when they do clearly illegal things.

    1. Wasn’t the spin ‘the Obama administration has lost so many court cases it shows how lawless they are’ just recently?

      1. My last pay test was $9500 operating 12 hours per week on line. my sisters buddy has been averaging 15k for months now and she works approximately 20 hours every week. i can not accept as true with how easy it become as soon as i tried it out.

        This is what do,…….► Home Profit System

    2. Yeah, and it would be so unfair for the Trump administration to be treated as if they were black!

      1. Double standards are indeed unfair. That was the point.

  2. Before conservatives meltdown re: Roberts perhaps the ‘party of personal responsibility’ might want to save some ire for what even many experts who disagree with the decision say was a rather sad effort by the administration here? When you face a balancing test and don’t do a good job on your end there’s going to be a good chance you lose.

    1. It will be interesting to see the number of Trumpestas comments. I am guessing that most conservatives don’t much care to see DACA gone. You make a good point that there is a continuous series of sloppy work by the Trump Administration and that should be the focus of those opposed to DACA. Had this effort been handled correctly DACA would be gone by now. As it is it will remain on the books, drive DACA supporter (Hispanic ancestry and others) to the polls, and remain under President Biden, until Senate Majority Leader Schumer call for a vote on a new Dreamers bill.

      1. Accurate – if chilling in its prophecies – post, M4e. Sloppy lawyering has been the banged-up hallmark of most Administration legal efforts to date.

        1. Makes sense. All the competent conservatives didn’t want to work for this administration, or got purged out along the way.

          1. Gotta get rid of that Deep State!

  3. Oh good, Mr. Open Borders chimes in.

    1. Mr. Don’t use state violence to inhibit the free movement of human beings.

      1. There are times that I think the mistake was not putting land mines on the Mexican border.

        1. Moat with alligators.

          1. Ah, the pro-life party.

            1. Pro innocent life. But if you do something that you know will get you killed and you die, it’s a Darwin Award.

              1. Conservatives like to say this a lot, but who counts as “innocent” tends to be an ever shrinking circle. I mean, you’re essentially arguing that the deaths of kids being taken by their parents over an invisible line are justified because they are not innocent.

                1. A moat is not invisible.

                  1. Moats okay but mines out, then? Well, at least you’re not totally hopeless.

                    1. Mines create messes, alligators clean up after themselves.

                2. Dr. Ed is on the same level as Kirkland, and his comments deserve as much respect.

                  Neither one is representative of their respective sides

                  1. No, that is not correct. The doctor is a mixture of insight, jokes, trolling and some weirdness.

                    Kirkland is a bigot and a troll without a single redeeming feature.

        2. Dr. Ed reaching for new lows.

          1. No, I neglected to mention machine guns.
            So there….

    2. And at an “often libertarian” blog, no less.

      (Well, that’s how it advertises itself.)

    3. Actual libertarianism, on my libertarian blog? Intolerable.

  4. Newsflash: Incompetent administration continues to demand special favors from Supreme Court; occasionally gets hand slapped because incompetent administration does things incompetently.

    Next: dog bites man.

      1. Open wider, Aktenberg78.

        Prof. Volokh can’t save you.

        I’m no longer certain he can save himself.

      2. You know who you sound like?

        A federal judge telling this Administration what to do, after trying to come up with reasons to uphold their actions, and failing.

        A lot of this isn’t hard; if the Administration was even moderately competent (or interested in competence) they wouldn’t lose cases like this.

        1. Nah, they’d keep losing them, but the rationale would have to be different.

          1. For some people a Deep State conspiracy is more likely than that te administration was less than competent in this effort.

            1. Fuck off, liar.

              1. Aren’t you worried about the Volokh Conspiracy’s civility standards?

                People have been censored and banned for less.

          2. Just funny that Obama never had to provide zero rationale for the legality of DACA at all.

  5. This constant assessment of intent in current society, is extremely problematic due to the left leaning media and academia which constantly frames right leaning viewpoints as immoral/unethical/wrong and usually fails to accurately present their arguments. So here Roberts decides Trump’s intent is bad while Obama’s is pure. Microaggressions are just ascribing negative intent to the innocuous actions of white people. This is very troubling. Idiocracy is a documentary. People need to read Against Empathy and understand that formal logic and reason should guide decision making.

    1. “So here Roberts decides Trump’s intent is bad while Obama’s is pure. ”

      Yeah, you don’t know what you’re talking about, do you?

    2. How is New Vulcan coming?

    3. “[L]eft leaning media and academia which constantly frames right leaning viewpoints as immoral/unethical/wrong.”

      I think right leaning people tend to do a pretty good job of this on their own. Usually I get the impression that right wing viewpoints are immoral/unethical/wrong from the things that self-described right-wing people say. One reason why it’s pretty easy to decide Trump has bad intent is to listen to things he says and things his supporters say.

      1. See Ed and Bob above.

  6. You fail to understand how popular the “law and order” argument will be — and you fail to anticipate how the working class (including Blacks and legal immigrants) will feel about illegal aliens in an economic downturn (which is coming).

    DACA was the first lawlessness, and then there were the hordes at the border and then the idiots blocking highways and now the thuggery in our streets. People have had ENOUGH and you forget that any revocation of DACA will result in more thuggery in our streets.

    People will cheer Trump suppressing that with force. Never forget that what Mayor Daley did in Chicago back in 1968 was popular with a majority of Chicago voters, as he got re-elected. Those who hate Trump will still hate him, but other will love him.

    1. This guy will still be spouting this ‘silent bigot majority’ stuff when Trump’s approval rating is back in the 30s.

      1. It’s ironically funny when the “this guy” is making quips about some other guy as “this guy”. Total lack of self awareness.

        1. I guess winning the culture war can lead to a bit of swagger.

    2. Rescinding DACA would have resulted in the bare thuggery of ICE agents deporting people from their homes due to the decisions of their parents. You don’t actually care about thuggery, you’re just mad your thugs are hamstrung for the moment.

      1. “bare thuggery”

        Or “lawfully exercising authority”.

        We have immigration laws. ICE enforces them as lawfully directed with court review.. I thought you libs were all “Rule of Law”.

        1. You know me well enough by now to know that I’m often more concerned with morals than law.

          Legal thuggery is still thuggery, and is often more odious because people will defend it. There is no question that taking someone from the only home they have ever known by force is pure thuggery, no matter what the law says. It just so happens to be thuggery you like and won’t have to personally engage in yourself.

          1. Most of these mestizos came when they were 16, not as little children.

            1. Still kids. Also: did you buy a set of calipers when you decided to become an open bigot?

          2. You are an anarchist really.

            Not that it will matter to you but usually they just send you a letter to report for deportation. I would expect these innocent law abiders to obey.

            1. And when you don’t report? What happens?

              I’m not an anarchist because I believe an extremely limited legitimate use of force is occasionally necessary to protect people in society. I also broadly believe in the goals of the welfare state for resource distribution, but I don’t think force is actually necessary to ensure that it works in the modern era.

              Basically, my moral and political sensibilities are Rawlsian although I think he was probably less idealistic than me.

              1. Imagine a world where these kids grow up to be conservatives. Now, in the privacy of your own head, ask yourself, truly, if you would feel the same way?

                I know I would, but would you?

                1. LTG is many things, but one of them is principled.
                  If you will recall he is a pacifist with the courage of his convictions.

                  1. Please resist the temptation to answer questions asked to other people specifically.

                    1. Instead of just admonishing Sarcastro, why not ask the proprietor to ban him for failure to follow the rules?

                    2. Propriety is a rule? Well, then you would be banned, but Sarc wouldn’t.

        2. “bare thuggery”

          Or “lawfully exercising authority”.

          Could be both. There are such things as thuggish laws, and thuggish enforcers.

  7. I don’t think the “political price of doing so” is going to be as high as you think. We’ve lost over 20 million jobs because of COVID and the shutdown, and many of them are permanent losses, regardless of what people think.

    I don’t think there will be the appetite for legalizing more people now that the “They do jobs Americans won’t do” argument won’t fly anymore.

  8. The opinion indicates that all but Part IV of the majority opinion was written by the Chief Justice. However, it doesn’t indicate who wrote Part IV. Obviously, it was someone in the majority, but it wasn’t Roberts and it wasn’t Sotomayor . That means it must have been Ginsburg, Breyer, or Kagan. But which one?

    1. That’s not it.

      The Chief Justice wrote the entire majority opinion (for the court).

      However, Sotomayor did not join in part IV.

      Since Sotomayor did not join in that part (re: equal protection, animus), that is not part of the majority opinion with five justices.

  9. “Today’s ruling does not definitively end either the legal or the political battle over DACA. Ultimately, only Congress can do that, by finally passing a law definitively protecting “Dreamers” from deportation and giving them permanent resident status in the United States.”

    So, what you’re saying is, neither the political nor the legal battle can ever end until your side prevails? Only you getting what you want can ever definitively end this dispute?

    The other side isn’t allowed to prevail?

    1. Brett,
      That’s an absolutely fair point. I suspect that the OP wrote poorly there, and actually did intend to include the phrase, “Ultimately [for the pro-DACA side], only Congress can do that, by…”

      If that was not left out inadvertently, then I agree that it doesn’t even make logical or legal sense, as you put succinctly and accurately in your second and third paragraphs.

  10. The Obama’s administration’s policy decisions on how to use the president’s discretion under immigration law were just that, policy decisions. The fact that those policy decisions led to a bunch of implementing regulations that people then “relied on” (you can’t legally, imho, “rely” on a reg based on a reversible policy decision) should be irrelevant. If Obama wanted to entrench change, he should have gone through Congress. Trump should be able to reverse a policy decision as easy as his predecessor made it. One can argue that Trump could have just announced the policy change and that would be that. But it would be weird if the president gets less deference undertaking a more extensive review process of a prior regulation then just announcing that given that he has as much discretion as his predecessor, he is simply changing policies.

    1. And I wrote that before seeing Jonathan’s post, arguing, as I do, that Trump didn’t have to present any argument at all for making this change.

      1. Knowing nothing with satisfy and another round of lawsuits on different criteria will appear regardless, why not take another bit at the apple and rescind DACA (again)? Somin’s opinion is that doing so will hurt him politically, but his base got him elected the first time, and he can firm it up by said bold action.

    2. Ilya Somin in 2014:

      “The deferral of their deportation may be reversed at any time, either by Obama himself or a successor.”

      https://reason.com/2014/12/16/why-obamas-immigration-policy-is-constit/

      1. But in any manner? This is the Administrative *Procedures* Act that was invoked. The Court says it could be reversed following the proper procedures.

        1. But the APA wasn’t followed in creating DACA in the first place; How can it be optional in creating a program, and obligatory in ending it?

          1. It can be different for rescinding vs. starting because of reliance interests.

            1. Yes, because judges can do whatever they want. This is exactly what I predicted would happen back then. Obama said he couldn’t do anything because it is the role of Congress. Then he said I’m going to go ahead and do it anyway because Congress doesn’t agree with me. Then the liberal hacks and open borders ideologues claimed it was okay and simply prosecutorial discretion which could be changed at any time. And I said no, just watch and see, the judicial oligarchy will say that now people have relied on this and you can’t change it.

            2. “It can be different for rescinding vs. starting because of reliance interests.”

              How can there be reliance interests in a temporary program?

              1. neither the Government nor the lead
                dissent cites any legal authority establishing that such features automatically preclude reliance interests, and we are
                not aware of any. These disclaimers are surely pertinent in
                considering the strength of any reliance interests, but that
                consideration must be undertaken by the agency in the first
                instance, subject to normal APA review. There was no such
                consideration in the Duke Memorandum.

                How would the temporariness of a program, if it does not have a clear ending, not create reliance interests in the benefits it bestows?

      2. To bad for Somin, the internet is forever. That is, if he cared about consistency.

    3. As I recall, the DACA paperwork itself informed people that they shouldn’t rely on its continuation, but that they were just benefiting from an act of discretion that could be revoked at any time.

  11. “Political price”?? You mean political benefit.

  12. “Had a more conventional Republican won the 2016 election—even one who is himself Hispanic, such as Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio—there is a good chance they would have tried to rescind DACA, as well.”

    So basically it’s a case of “Orange Man Bad “.

    1. Uh, you do get he’s arguing for the administration here, right?

    2. Marco Rubio likely would have done it without the overt bigotry and with some level of operational competence.

      Ted Cruz? 50-50.

  13. “Very Narrow”

    This logic will not be used against open borders in the future! Only for it.

    “The decision is only a temporary reprieve”

    The 4-year temporary reprieve from allowing a President from exercising his rightful powers continues, but the super legislature may reverse course in due time depending on who wins upcoming elections.

  14. You know, all of this would have been thoroughly avoidable if Mitch McConnell hadn’t taken a scorched earth approach to refusing to pass anything Obama sent. There is broad public support for DACA, and there’s no reason Congress shouldn’t have passed it. Except they wouldn’t because Obama wanted it to happen.

    Karma. This is definitely karma.

    1. No, there’s no broad public support, not if you tell people the truth. If you say “Do you support allowing people who were brought as children and are productive people to stay?” they answer yes. If you say “Do you support allowing people who claim they came at age 16, but are 35 now, have 4 misdemeanor assaults and DWIs, and are working minimum wage jobs while collecting public assistance to stay,” they answer no.

      You can parade the rare Harvard physics grad in front of cameras, but the vast majority are low functioning people, much like the rest of Latin America.

    2. Oh yeah, and fuck off, liar.

    3. I’m not sure you can blame this entirely on Mitch as much as I sure would like to.

    4. You have it right, Karma.

    5. “There is broad public support for DACA”

      In 2009-2011, Dems had an 80 vote House majority and 59 senators.

      No bill then. If it was so popular should have been easy.

      1. It passed the House and got 56 votes in the Senate.

        1. Hagan, Pryor, Ben Nelson, Tester and Baucus — all Democrats, voted to filibuster.

          If it was a priority these votes could have been obtained.

          1. So four Democrats voting to filibuster proves that the Democrats didn’t even want it.

            Do you interpret every single thing that happens as a confirmation of your political opinions?

            Where do you get your glasses? I’d find a better optician.

      2. You may recall Congress and the President were working on other things at the time, like Obamacare. Besides which, that Democrats didn’t pass it doesn’t excuse Republicans who refused to even consider it.

    6. I have come to realize that the ultimate problem for the Dreamers is precisely that their cause is so obviously just.

      Because of this, everyone in the immigration debate has at one time or another tried to use them as a bargaining chip: Democrats for comprehensive reform, Republicans, to enact all sorts of restrictionist policies. Too few people in the political sphere have just said “you know what, these people should be in the country, let’s just pass a bill and get it done”. Because they think there’s some political advantage to be gained by not doing that.

      1. Yea, that’s it. It’s so just. Whew. You live in an alternate universe.

        You’re only right in that they are the bargaining chip, and neither side wants to piss off their base by what they think they should get from the other for letting them stay.

        1. I think probably about 20 percent of the public thinks it is unjust, and of that group, probably some fraction actually thinks it would be just but just doesn’t want to take a pro-immigration position on a major issue.

          You literally have to be a sadistic jerk to want to deport someone for the “immigration law violation” of being dragged across the border by one’s parents.

          I do realize there are sadistic jerks who believe exactly that in our comments threads here, but in any functioning majoritarian system, they would have been outvoted long ago.

          1. Serious question. At what age do you think a person should not qualify as “being dragged across the border” and bearing moral culpability for his or her own actions?

          2. I would like you to give some actual poll numbers rather than “I think”. While DACA itself has about 70% public support according to PEW, you ask the same public and 80% want an immigration moratorium, and 50% want more enforcement of our immigration laws.

            You literally have to be a sadistic jerk to think that just because someone’s parents committed a crime the kids get avoid all consequence. If I’m a new mom with a baby at home, can I avoid prison for check fraud?

            I do realize that there are sadistic jerks who believe exactly that in our comment threads here, but in any functioning majoritarian system, the rule of law should matter.

            (side note, the “land mines on the southern border” comments are clearly trolling)

            1. I haven’t posted that, but I believe it, and I’m not trolling. We should line the border with Claymores. If a few muchachos in Guatemala get wind that their cucaracha cousins are getting their legs blown off, they’ll reconsider their “journey.”

            2. “I would like you to give some actual poll numbers rather than “I think”. While DACA itself has about 70% public support according to PEW, you ask the same public and 80% want an immigration moratorium”

              An “immigration moratorium” has nothing to do with DACA. Dreamers are already here. I have never claimed that the American public supports expanded immigration. I simply said they support legalizing the Dreamers.

              “You literally have to be a sadistic jerk to think that just because someone’s parents committed a crime the kids get avoid all consequence.”

              I think there are texts going back a couple of millennia on the issue of suffering the sins of the fathers on the children. I basically think I’m arguing with a Nazi or Stalin at this point. You are endorsing sadistically punishing innocent people to achieve your political ends.

              1. Don’t trot out the Christian card, because you care fuck all for the rest of it, because if you did, you would acknowledge that under Christian doctrine a legitimate government has a right to control its borders, even as they welcome the stranger.

                Again, *you* literally have to be a sadistic jerk to think that just because there is a child, a parent doesn’t take responsibility for their actions. I guess once the child is out of the womb that is.

  15. I hope Roberts gets a tumor

    1. I can’t speak for Roberts, but I think he would agree with me that you should live a very long life and should use that time to become a better person.

      1. Well said.

    2. And I hope you live to be 110 in good health so you can watch your dream of a white supremacist utopia disappear completely. Also that all of your grandchildren will turn out to be gay, and half of them will partner with blacks and Hispanics.

  16. When was the most recent case that SCOTUS used the “arbitrary and capricious.” standard in an opinion.

  17. Thank you for supplying the perspective and proper legal effect of this decision, which have apparently been lost upon the majority of the MSM, Professor Somin.

  18. This is a very narrow decision only if one concludes that the rationale given for the decision was, in fact, the real reason for the decision and not just a pretext. If one thinks it was a pretext, the decision was broad because it tells the President and others that no matter what new justifications they provide, the Court will continually rule against them.

    1. What evidence do you have that the reasoning of this decision is all lies?

  19. Sorry – this is not narrow, this is nonsense.

    SCOTUS MUST addess the claim that DACA was illegal or unconstitutional FIRST.

    I honestly do not see how APA can possibly apply to an action justified by prosecutorial discretion.

    Regardless, the claim that anyone must provide a rationale beyond “its illegal” to undo something.

    Roberts is essentially saying that illegal and unconstitutional acts must remain forever – if someone thinks they are a good idea.

    1. I agree, and what happens if injury occurs in the interim?

  20. I thought post-hoc rationalizations were beloved by the court, and the core behind the “rational basis” test. And not even post-hoc rationalizations by the advocates, but post-advocate post-hoc rationalizations by the court.

    I mean, if concern by The People that bureaucrats aren’t just pulling stuff out of their behinds is a value, which this judgement apparently claims.

    1. Someone will now reply something it was found hiding in the Constitution, and was not actually post-hoc, like the trick the New Testament uses, John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

      Thus does a religion born 1500 years after another claim to have, gosh, actually been there all along, you just missed it!

  21. Reason used to be against the Executive Branch writing legislation via Executive Orders. It appears now that they are now as hypocritical as everyone else. As long as they like the order, it’s as good as gold to them.

    1. …Do you think Reason is a hivemind?

    2. Agree. Sad really. How’s that for free speech Nicky?

      1. More like they don’t like the strike zone changing every half-inning, never in their favor. Congress has been pretty worthless at passing legislation that doesn’t give everyone money. If the Executive (and Judicial) branches are now the sources of law then they at least want their turn, fair is fair.

  22. Rescinding DACA may have been bad policy. But what is sauce for the goose has to be sauce for the gander.

    If enacting the program did not require notice and comment, then it can be rescinded without notice and comment.

    And if the rescinding a validly enacted program required notice and comment, then enacting it required notice and comment, and enacting it without that was unlawful.

    The requirements to enact and to rescind have to be the same. There has to be the same law for policies the Justices like and policies they don’t.

    Moreover, the basis for rescinding a forebearance program is clear. The law says deportation, not forebearance. Every President has a right to take care that the laws be faithfully executed.

    1. It’s not clear that enacting the program did not require N&C. That is , I believe, still in litigation.

  23. “The majority opinion also concludes that the administration failed to properly consider the “reliance interests” of DACA recipients, in making its rescission decision.”

    Completely different than, say, telling gun owners for years that bump stocks are perfectly legal, then doing a 180° and making them felons unless they turn them in for absolutely no compensation.

  24. DACA is most likely unconstitutional and was declared as such by one of the higher courts. The SC ruled that Trump did not overturn in a proper manner.

    So executive overreach was allowed to stand over a technicality. I think Thomas’ dissent summed up this little sordid affair perfectly.

    The only reason libertarians aren’t getting cancelled left and right is because their whole movement was insignificant for the new Jacobins to care. I do fear for Robby Soave though.

  25. One of my difficulties here is that if you look at the Trump Administration’s overall behavior, it essentially used DACA recipients as political hostages, first dangling sympathy for them, then offering to make their status permanent if President Trump got his way on enough other issues, and finally coming down hard on them when the demanded ransom wasn’t paid.

    That angered me. It doubtless angered Professor Somin. And I suspect it angered Chief Justice Roberts. I also suspect this behavior, while not the on-the-record reason, was the real reason why Chief Justice Roberts voted the way he did.

    I also acknowledge the anger was likely moral, at the idea of treating people’s lives as pure hostages for ones political advantage, of having complete disregard for them. The sadistic pretense of sympathy, as a way to manipulate for a higher ransom, combined with a complete lack of caring about the actual policy merits – he would have gone the other way if the ransom had been high enough – is what makes this situation far more immoral than for a person who genuinely believes deportation and strict enforcement is correct policy.

    If the opinion had said that, I might, on reflection, be inclined to give the opinion more credit than I did when it came out. After all, if the APA applies, one basic element of it is that administrative policies cannot be based purely on political ransom demands, they have to flow from the statutory mandate in a reasoned way.

    I still don’t think the APA applies. Because it was enacted without notice and comment, it can be rescinded without notice and comment. If N&A was initially required, the initial policy was illegal and could be rescinded Immediately. And if not, recission was also discretionary. In any event relying on the opinion of a circuit court of appeals was reasonable.

Please to post comments

Equal Protection

Oregon County Imposes Race-Based Mask Requirements

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From Lincoln County, Oregon:

Face Covering Directive
Order 6/17/2020—Face Covering Directive (signed directive in Supporting Documents—below)

General directive: All individualis in Lincoln County are required to wear face coverings during any indoor public setting or outdoor public location where a person will be in within six feet of another individual, who does not share the same household.

Exceptions:

  • Persons with health/medical conditions that preclude or are exacerbated by wearing a face covering.
  • Children under the age of 12. Children over the age of 2 but under the age of 12 are encouraged to wear face coverings but not required to do so.
  • Persons with disabilities that prevents them from using the face covering as described in this Directive. These persons must be reasonably accommodated to allow them access to goods and services.
  • People of color who have heightened concerns about racial profiling and harassment due to wearing face coverings in public.

I appreciate the concern about racial profiling, but, no, it can't justify having one law for "people of color" and another for whites; such a race-based classification violates the Equal Protection Clause. Thanks to Luke Thiesen for the pointer.

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  1. What went wrong with the culture of the type people who write these rules? What made them think to try to enact such a rule to begin with?

    Seems like a systemic, institutional problem.

    Prediction: no one will apologize.

    1. “What made them think to try to enact such a rule to begin with?”

      Concern for people of color?

      1. Concern, forsooth!

        This rule disincentivizes POCs to wear masks. Not only will some of them choose not to take a precaution that’s not required by the law, increasing their risk of a disease that already afflicts a disproportionate number of them; but those who do choose to mask themselves will come under suspicion—

        “There’s a black man walking around my neighborhood wearing a mask. Since they’re not required to wear them, this guy might well have some ulterior motive. Could you send an officer over to check him out and make sure he’s not up to something?”

        Rather than “concern”, the motive for this exception appears to be “desire to seem concerned”.

        1. You know, some one could be wrong ultimately in how they act on t their concern without the concern being insincere.

      2. Which is exclusionary and tend to be contrary to equal protection when put into action.

        When did concern for all disappear as an ethos?

        1. When bigots started to recognize that their stale, ugly thinking had become objectionable in the American mainstream, so those bigots switched to euphemisms such as “color-blind,” “all lives matter,” and “concern for all?”

          1. I don’t read your posts. You are a bad example of humanity. Your parents should be ashamed.

            1. Ben,
              It kinds sorta sounds like you do read his posts.

              1. kinda sorta…
                [stupid lack of Edit button. sigh]

              2. I read a couple of them long ago.

            2. I didn’t know Satan’s spawns had parents…

        2. Don’t you think the idea is that people of color have a special concern re profiling/harassment? Even if you don’t think that concern is warranted, you don’t see how they might have the concern at the very least, say, because lots of people are out there saying it’s warranted?

          1. No special concern, no. If your rule can be used unfairly to harass one race, it can be used unfairly to harass. Period. If that’s a primary concern, then don’t enact the rule for anyone and we will all be able to live our lives with one less opportunity to be harassed.

            1. So the old ‘the law prevents the rich and the poor alike from sleeping under bridges…’

              1. Is that a cliche? I haven’t heard it. I don’t know what you’re trying to say. Too bad you didn’t just say it.

                1. It’s a saying that’s supposed to demonstrate that an on it’s face neutral rule or law can in reality have almost completely disparate impacts.

                  1. Then don’t enact the rule. I don’t want to be harassed by busybodies either.

                    1. It’s an exception to a rule, with those there’s often a thought good from the rule and a thought overriding good for some groups from the exception.

                    2. In other words, one rule for the non-preferred race of people and another rule for everyone else.

                      You know that’s bad, right?

    2. “What made them think to try to enact such a rule to begin with?”

      Four years of college level indoctrination?

    3. What’s worse, there appears to be evidence that Black & Hispanic people are more likely to catch the Wuhan Virus — and hence THEY are the ones who should be wearing masks.

  2. Wait for it in the coming months, but employers are also of the opinion that it is OK for them to hire or promote on the basis of race (without it being any “plus” factor under an affirmative action scheme) and are openly doing so now because of the political climate.

    It will be interesting to see the discrimination cases that are filed in the next few months and how those end up working their way through the court system.

    1. Adidas is one such company. It has openly said that it will increase the Black / Hispanic percentage of its employees to 30%.

      Adidas has deep pockets too.

      1. Adidas is a has-been brand from the 1970’s.
        I didn’t even know they still were in business.

    2. Reverse discrimination cases routinely get tossed.
      Yet another reason why Joe Sixpack has lost respect for the courts.

      1. Yup discrimination claims against majority races definitely has a harder track in the courts, but I can’t see blatant discrimination getting a “pass” by most. It is technically illegal and even the liberal Warren court never signaled affirmative action type discrimination an outright exception to the general rule.

  3. The conclusion would have to be based on a strict scrutiny analysis.

  4. Oregon has recently passed many race based laws and/or distributed tax money by race in the last 6 months – local attorneys should be busy for years. As a transplant from the South, the PNW has a vary bizarre approach to race (which usually result in racist policies and the state constantly getting hustled). As far as a I know Portland and Seattle are the only cities that have had riots every night since the media pressed the initiate race war button.

    1. I think Soros has that button his computer keyboard right?

  5. Woah.

    That is a TERRIBLE local directive.

    Not that surprising, though. If you’ve ever dealt with local government (city, county), competence cannot be assumed.

    1. It’s why we are on the cusp of a populist revolt.

      1. The Great Clinger Uprising!

        No More Inconsequential, Bitter Muttering!

        A Half-Century Of Getting Stomped By Our Betters Is Enough!

        1. Kirkland might want to read up on the “Know Nothing” movement.
          That actually happened.

          1. Know nothing commenting actually happens too.

        2. When the “Great Clinger Uprising” occurs I want a front row seat and lots of popcorn to see how AK shits his pants…

  6. So the racist government of Lincoln County wants blacks to get the dreaded Communist Chinese Virus and die?
    Wouldn’t they be better off figuring out the new name for the county?

  7. You let people violate constitutional rules like equal protection long enough for what you think are “good” reasons, (Affirmative action being implemented as racial quotas, for instance.) eventually they forget that there’s a principle they’ve been permitted to violate.

    They just took things to the next obvious step: Stop pretending that we’re equal before the law.

    1. I’m struck by the trend of “good” versus “bad” lawbreaking: in Virginia, for example, vandalizing a statue of Columbus is “good” (and must be rewarded) while vandalizing a statue of Arthur Ashe is “bad” (and must be severely punished).

      We are indeed living in a time where constitutional rights (both Federal and state) have been set aside… and set aside for reasons not fully disclosed by parties not empowered to do so.

      1. Statues don’t have constitutional rights.

        But more to the point, while I don’t support vandalizing anything, I think the argument is that vandalizing a statue glorifying a bad person can be good while vandalizing a statue glorifying a good person is bad.

        1. While both are illegal.

          1. Do you think every illegal act is equally moral or immoral? So Susan B. Anthony trying to vote is the same as if Putin tried to vote (in our election)?

            1. Do I think the legal system is entitled to engage in that sort of analysis? No. (Except juries, who are there exactly to do that, in extremity.)

              Look, we fundamentally disagree about what is moral or immoral. Forget that left wing trope that we all agree on morality, and some of us just chose to do immoral things. We disagree!

              We create laws to embody the rules we can agree on. Deciding that the rules will only be enforced where somebody, (Who?) decides the illegal act is moral, breaks the bargain the law represents.

              We’ve agreed vandalism will be illegal. The law contains no exception for nice vandalism, because there’s no objective way to make that distinction, and we disagree on the subjective elements. Enforce the damned law, or stop pretending we have the rule of law, so we can get down to reenacting Mad Max.

    2. ” let people violate constitutional rules like equal protection long enough for what you think are “good” reasons, (Affirmative action being implemented as racial quotas”

      Is this happening a lot or ‘long enough?’ I thought affirmative action was limited (and in a limited scope) to educational institutions admissions (and I guess remedying proven cases of discrimination).

      1. A lot of non-educational institutions have racially discriminatory hiring quotas, it’s just that academia is kind of a leading indicator on doing that sort of thing openly.

        The key point here is that the only proof of discrimination needed is disparate impact, which makes the demand for non-discrimination into a de facto quota.

        1. “A lot of non-educational institutions have racially discriminatory hiring quotas”

          Citation?

          “the only proof of discrimination needed is disparate impact”

          Citation?

          1. I’m not going to accept that you’re an idiot, or were raised in a cave.

            You just want to deny that racial quotas exist, by pretending it’s not a quota until the people implementing it admit it’s one. It’s just goals that magically get met every year.

            Not playing that game, the existence of racial quotas in America is well established.

      2. I’m my experience in the corporate world it’s been going on for decades.

  8. Seems like the law is can be given a saving construction: white is also a color. So no one with concerns about profiling has to wear a mask.

    1. Is this true? I’m a photographer, and I always thought that “color” was defined as visible light with a specific wavelength. And that, therefore, white (mix of all wavelengths of visible light) and and black (absence of all such wavelengths) were *shades* and not colors.

      (Yes, I can imagine what would happen to you, if you walked up to a BLM rally and started calling the people there “Shades.” Linguistic subtleties having their proper time and place, of course.)

      1. Most whites are kinda pink.

      2. Yeah man, I don’t even see color

      3. Light with a specific wavelength can only achieve a subset of visible colors.

        Colors really are a phenomenon of the mind and eye. The standard human eye has three types of color receptors, each with overlapping sensitivities over a fairly broad range. The relative ratios of activation define a color, but that same ratio of activation can happen in many different ways. For example you can cause a yellow sensation in viewers with true “yellow” light, or by a mixture of green light and red light (which do not blend to form yellow, but remain distinct, as can be seen by e.g. a prism). There are also “non-spectral” colors that cannot arise from any single wavelength — basically all magentas are this.

    2. Yes, but would Roberts want to jump through hoops to fashion a saving construction in this particular case?

  9. But racisms is a public health issue, and under the SAFETY exception to the Constitution, any local official, elected or not, may, by decree tell us that we cannot travel, leave our homes, protest the decree, peaceably assemble, etc., so why quibble over equal protection?

    1. Latest shooting of Black man — who shot at cops first.
      Wonder what BLM will say about this one. Yes, he shot first…
      https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-a-county-deputies-kill-man-wound-woman-in-rosamond-shooting/

      1. I assume that this is just county officials overcompensating out of shame for their county being named after someone who is on the record making racist and hurtful comments such as:

        I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races; that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position, the negro should be denied everything.

        (From the Lincoln Douglas Debate of September 18, 1858)

        I assume a task force is busily trying to come up with a new name for the county and when that is completed county officials will stop overcompensating and all the “individualis” in Lincoln County will be spared future shame.

        1. ARGH — Reason’s comment system screws up placement when you start a comment and, before submitting it, start another comment.

          My comment above was meant to be at the top level.

          1. “and, before submitting it, start another comment.”

            And does so in a predictable fashion, so I’m not calling this a bug. One comment at a time, if you decide not to post a comment, cancel the reply, and you’ll never encounter it.

            The system is buggy enough, we don’t need to treat predictable functionality as bugs.

  10. Look, there is a type of religious experience involved here, for lack of a better phrase. Uttering certain words constitutes blasphemy and will bring everlasting damnation and torment. Other expressions are a form of veneration and bring favor and untold blessings. I’m afraid I don’t have time to explain it to you in detail right now, but it includes a system of special dispensation that allows the faithful, by uttering a certain form of “prayer,” if you will, to receive forgiveness for their sins, past and future. This local government was merely engaging in such supplication. (They won’t know whether their petition will be granted until they see whether the ordeal bypasses them by.) Give them a break. They’re doing the best they can. Their clerisy is not to be trifled with.

    Please be advised that making light of this constitutes actual violence threatening people’s feelings, and that this is punishable by mandatory ritual self-abasement and self-banishment, to serve thereafter as an example for others. I fear that even the above will result in reason.com being demonetized by Google.

  11. Wonder how the regulation writer would define “people of color.” Would an Irishman who turned bright red because he stayed too long on a sunny beach qualify? How about someone from Sicily, Greece, Israel, or Egypt? And why is there is no provision for people of no color who fear being mistaken for a robber. After all, albinos are a persecuted minority in many parts of the globe.

  12. Anyone know of a liberty-minded law firm in Oregon this can be referred to?

Please to post comments

Supreme Court

Supreme Court Holds Trump Administration Rescission of DACA Was "Arbitrary and Capricious" (Updated)

In what appears to be a quite narrow ruling, Chief Justice John Roberts holds that if Trump wants to get rid of DACA, he'll have to try again.

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The Supreme Court issued only one decision today, but it was another big one: Department of Homeland Security v. Regents of the University of California—the DACA case. In what was largely a 5-4 decision, the Court held that the Trump Administration's decision to rescind the Obama Administration's Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals policy was subject to judicial review and was arbitrary and capricious under the Administrative Procedure Act. The Court also rejected, by an 8-1 vote, the claim that the DACA rescission violated the Equal Protection Clause, though there is no majority opinion on that point.

Chief Justice Roberts wrote the opinion for the Court (and a four-justice plurality opinion on the Equal Protection Claim), joined by the Court's four liberal justices (save for Justice Sotomayor on the that latter claim). Justice Thomas wrote a dissent, joined by Justices Gorsuch and Alito. Justice Kavanaugh also wrote a dissent. Note that both dissents were, technically, dissents in part and opinions concurring-in-the-judgment in part, as the dissenters all agreed with the Chief Justice's ultimate resolution of the Equal Protection claim.

The balance of this post will provide some highlights and initial reactions to the decisions. I am confident that my co-bloggers Ilya Somin and Josh Blackman will have more to say about this decision as well (and I suspect they will disagree with each other, so be sure to read them both).

The threshold decision by the majority holding that the DACA rescission is subject to judicial review is significant. While the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) has long been understood to embody a presumption of judicial review, it has also long been understood that exercises of enforcement discretion are generally immune from such review. So the Obama Administration argued its immigration policies (DACA and DAPA) were unreviewable (and also reversible at any time) and the Trump Administration argued that its decision to end DACA was likewise unreviewable. A consequence of this holding could be to narrow the range of administrative actions that are outside of judicial review.

On the merits, the majority opinion by Chief Justice Roberts appears to be quite narrow, and focuses on the paucity of the Trump Administration's initial explanation for why it was ending the policy The Chief Justice explains that the Trump Administration's decision must be evaluated based upon the rationale that was provided at the time the decision was made. According to Roberts, this means that the Court should only look at the Duke memo, and not the subsequent memorandum offered by Secretary Nielsen that later expanded and elaborated on the decision to rescind.

According to Roberts, Acting DHS Secretary Duke was bound by the Attorney General's conclusion that DACA was unlawful, but was nonetheless obligated to consider various approaches to DACA's purported illegality and whether ending DACA would disturb settled expectations. This is a dramatic conclusion, and has the potential to constrain a range of future administrative actions.  Among other things, it seems to suggest that when the Executive Branch concludes an existing policy is illegal, it can't simply stop the policy, but has to publicly examine a range of alternatives even if the action in question is not an agency action with the force of law (such as a duly promulgated regulation). So even though the Obama Administration created DACA with the stroke of a pen, more than the mere stroke of a pen was required to rescind it.

That said, the Roberts opinion is narrow in that it does not consider the subsequent Nielsen opinion and leaves open the possibility that the Trump Adminsitration could stil rescind DACA, provided it adequately examines the relevant considerations in whatever memo or explanation accompanies the decision. The Court's 8-1 rejection of the Equal Protection claim further clears away this potential obstacle to rescission. As noted above, Justice Sotomayor dissented in part in a separate opinion arguing that the Court "prematurely dispose[d]" of these claims, and that the plaintiffs should have had the opportunity to demonstrate that the DACA rescission was motivated by animus on remand.

Roberts opinion concludes:

We do not decide whether DACA or its rescission are sound policies. "The wisdom" of those decisions "is none of our concern." Chenery II, 332 U. S., at 207. We address only whether the agency complied with the procedural requirement that it provide a reasoned explanation for its action. Here the agency failed to consider the conspicuous issues of whether to retain forbearance and what if anything to do about the hardship to DACA recipients. That dual failure raises doubts about whether the agency appreciated the scope of its discretion or exercised that discretion in a reasonable manner. The appropriate recourse is therefore to remand to DHS so that it may consider the problem anew. . . .

Though I plan to dig into the Roberts decision more thoroughly, I am unconvinced by his analysis on multiple levels. I believe DACA was lawful (given the decades-long practice of immigration law enforcement and implementation that allowed forbearance and the receipt of benefits), but I also believe the Trump Administration had no obligation to provide any explanation at all for its rescission, and that the conclusion that DACA was unlawful was more than sufficient to justify its rescission (and would be so even if courts disagreed as to that determination, as what matters is whether the decision was reasonable, not whether it was correct).

Chief Justice Roberts' decision here appears to be of a piece with what I've characterized as his "anti-disruption" approach to judging. He dislikes decisions that alter precedent, invalidate federal statutes, sweep too broadly or (as here) upset settled expectations or cause administrative disruptions. This is also a sufficient priority for him that his concern for disruption will trump his concern for adhering to statutory text or constitutional principle. In these respects, I see his decision today as fitting in with what we've seen from him in a range of cases, including (but not limited to) BondNFIB, and King. 

Justice Thomas wrote the principal dissent, joined by Justices Alito and Gorsuch. According to Justice Thomas, DACA was unlawful from the inception, and that provides ample basis for the Trump Administration's to rescind the program. He writes:

DHS created DACA during the Obama administration without any statutory authorization and without going through the requisite rulemaking process. As a result, the program was unlawful from its inception. The majority does not even attempt to explain why a court has the authority to scrutinize an agency's policy reasons for rescinding an unlawful program under the arbitrary and capricious microscope. The decision to countermand an unlawful agency action is clearly reasonable. So long as the agency's determination of illegality is sound, our review should be at
an end.

Today's decision must be recognized for what it is: an effort to avoid a politically controversial but legally correct decision. The Court could have made clear that the solution respondents seek must come from the Legislative Branch. Instead, the majority has decided to prolong DHS' initial overreach by providing a stopgap measure of its own. In doing so, it has given the green light for future political battles to be fought in this Court rather than where they rightfully belong—the political branches. Such timidity forsakes the Court's duty to apply the law according to neutral principles, and the ripple effects of the majority's error will be felt throughout our system of self-government.

Perhaps even more unfortunately, the majority's holding creates perverse incentives, particularly for outgoing administrations. Under the auspices of today's decision, administrations can bind their successors by unlawfully adopting significant legal changes through Executive Branch agency memoranda. Even if the agency lacked authority to effectuate the changes, the changes cannot be undone by the same agency in a successor administration unless the successor provides sufficient policy justifications to the satisfaction of this Court. In other words, the majority erroneously holds that the agency is not only permitted, but required, to continue administering unlawful programs that it inherited from a previous administration.

Justice Kavanaugh wrote a separate, more narrow, dissent, focusing on the APA question. He stresses that all nine justices accept that the Executive Branch has the legal authority to rescind DACA, and dissents on the ground that the explanation for the DACA rescission provided by the Nielsen memo was sufficient for this sort of action under traditional standards of judicial review. Justice Kavanaugh's opinion was confined to this claim, and assumed, for the sake of  argument, that the decision to rescind DACA is properly subject to judicial review in the first place.

A final note: While I largely agree with Justice Kavanaugh, I think it is fair to note that here (as in so many cases) the Trump Administration adopted a sloppy and incautious approach to policy implementation. As I stress to my administrative law students, government lawyers should be in the habit of dotting every "i" and crossing every "t", and checking such things twice, so as never to give a court that dislikes a policy decision an excuse to invalidate the action on procedural grounds. Though I think the Court today got the legal question wrong, the Trump Administration made it easier for the Court than it should have—and that's something we've seen from this Administration quite a bit.

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  1. I would really love to hear something from one of the small group of legal experts in admin law on this. It’s a complicated case.

    Alas, the conversation is sure to be dominated by generalists who normally never read admin law opinions.

    1. Trump has the right to rescind DACA but he didn’t show his work or legal theory in the margins. Is that a good summation of why the Supreme Court upheld DACA?

      1. It didn’t uphold DACA, it struck down the decision to rescind DACA.

        1. The way I heard it described :

          (1) It upheld Obama’s DACA as legal
          (2) It upheld Trump’s right to rescind DACA
          (3) But Trump was too incompetent to do it right. (in so many words)

          Trump’s bungling clownish stupidity has always been a saving grace of this administration.

          1. ★My last month paycheck was for 1500 dollars… All i did was simple online work from comfort at home for 3-4 hours/day that I got from this agency I discovered over the internet and they paid me for it 95 bucks every hour.

            See—> Money90

          2. The legality of DACA was not among the questions presented.

            From the Court’s docket:
            The questions presented are as follows:
            1. Whether DHS’s decision to wind down the DACA policy is judicially reviewable.
            2. Whether DHS’s decision to wind down the DACA policy is lawful.

          3. I read the opinion not as saying (1) at all. It distinguished some aspects of DACA from DAPA, suggesting that there are parts of DACA that might be legal even if there are parts that are not. But it’s not part of the holding.

    2. First, it does indicate that the work up front matters. I have no illusions that a district court judge somewhere wouldn’t have enjoined the rescission if DHS had put forth Nielsen’s memo as the original justification, but it would’ve been harder for Roberts to affirm (I think the 9th Circuit’s panel in this case would’ve upheld an injunction). The initial reasoning showed a lack of interest or expertise in admin. law. (I think the rescission should’ve been upheld even under that anemic memo, but that’s a different matter.)

      Second, and this will continue to cut against Republican and Democratic administrations, this case is another example of how policies and administration priorities that everyone agrees are lawful (SCOTUS acknowledges that Trump has the right to rescind DACA) can be blocked for at least an entire term(!) through a single APA case. When it’s a Democratic administration, these types of suits will move back to a Texas district court and the 5th Circuit, and we’ll go through the same process from the other side. Rinse and repeat.

      1. You know full well that leftist judges won’t apply the same logic to their own initiatives.

        1. Which is why I said that the cases would move back to Texas and the Fifth, like they did during Obama’s second term. Now maybe Roberts and the four liberals would short circuit such challenges by staying a district court injunction or ruling during appeal in those cases, but otherwise the process and delay will occur in a similar fashion.

          1. “Roberts and the four liberals”

            You left out “other” after “four”

            1. They are LEFTISTS, not liberals….

              1. And, as leftists, they get to call themselves liberals.

                1. My last pay test was $9500 operating 12 hours per week on line. my sisters buddy has been averaging 15k for months now and she works approximately 20 hours every week.EDc i can not accept as true with how easy it become as soon as i tried it out.

                  This is what do,…….► Home Profit System

      2. “would’ve been harder for Roberts to affirm”

        You are kidding right? Chief Justice Warren the 2nd would have sided with his fellow libs no matter what.

        1. You may be right. Who knows anymore.

      3. Certainly one message here is “do your APA homework before changing rules”.

    3. What’s complicated about it?

      The defenders of Obama’s unconstitutional DACA, which Obama admitted was unconstitutional, relied primarily on the argument that DACA could be rescinded by any President at any time!

      1. Nope. And that shows why we need actual admin law geeks talking about it.

        1. Yup. They did. You can go back and find the links.

          Adler is the admin law expert.

          “I am unconvinced by his analysis on multiple levels.”

          “the Trump Administration had no obligation to provide any explanation at all for its rescission, and that the conclusion that DACA was unlawful was more than sufficient to justify its rescission”

          “it seems to suggest that when the Executive Branch concludes an existing policy is illegal, it can’t simply stop the policy, but has to publicly examine a range of alternatives even if the action in question is not an agency action with the force of law (such as a duly promulgated regulation). So even though the Obama Administration created DACA with the stroke of a pen, more than the mere stroke of a pen was required to rescind it.”

          This seems to be about as harsh of a criticism you will ever see from Adler on a SCOTUS decision.

          1. It’s a little more nuanced. Did you read the opinion?

        2. If I’m not mistaken Adler is the only admin law expert at the VC.

    4. Alas, the conversation is sure to be dominated by generalists who normally never read

      You could’ve stopped there.

  2. So he’ll “keep trying again,” while more leftist judges issue “nationwide injunctions,” saying that the new rule is also “arbitrary and capricious.” The point of the APA was not to let judges substitute their policy preferences for that of the President. Alito’s dissent had it right. They can obstruct a policy preference of the President for his entire term.

      1. Right. Which was the point all along.

      2. The walls are closing in…
        This is the beginning of the end…
        Donald Trump is done….
        Today was a turning point…
        A new bombshell today for the Trump presidency….
        This is a tipping point….

        1. Be careful what you ask for Rabbi — you might get it….

          1. I didn’t buy the stock market dip in March so I’m hoping Joe Biden wins in November so the markets tank again. I’m sitting on wads of cash like an idiot instead of balls deep in an S&P500 ETF.

  3. This is a miserable decision from the court, and twists the law all out of sorts (as is frequently seen by a Roberts decision)

    DACA was implimented through a simple memorandum, with no rulemaking period, in clear violation of the APA, without any consideration of reliance interests. DHS consistently stated ““DHS may revoke or terminate deferred action and begin
    removal proceedings at any time at its discretion.”

    But eliminating this illegal program, passed without any APA rulemaking program now REQUIRES an APA commenting period? That’s….nuts.

    What other programs can be set up with a simply memo, then the APA doesn’t allow for elimination of them? Can Trump set up a simple program with a quick memo that grants Babtist churches a billion dollars a year? Then whenever, whoever comes in next and says “Nope, that’s illegal…” and shuts down the program. Then the churches sue, and the payments continue for 4 years, while the court case makes its way through the system. And then the courts decide “Well, you didn’t follow APA procedure in ending these illegal payments to the church, and didn’t consider reliance interests. Try again.”

    Is that how this works?

    1. The Court didn’t say that the implementation of DACA was legal. Given the reasoning I would say they don’t think it was. But you can’t illegally rescind and illegal law. If DACA is illegal (specifically the deferred removal), then this is, too. Two wrongs don’t make a right

      (See below to see I think both were fine regarding deferred removal)

      1. “You can’t illegally rescind an illegal law”.

        I assume you mean policy here (laws are different, and passed by Congress). But this leads to madness

        Let’s take something simple. Unauthorized payments. The administration makes unauthorized payments via a new policy to a company. A new administration stops these payments, saying they’re illegal. The company sues, saying the APA wasn’t followed, and the long commenting and rulemaking period is required.

        It twists a whole bunch of perverse incentives.

        1. I don’t think everything has to go under notice and comment. Some things comply with the APA as long as they are properly explained. That is what the administration didn’t do here.

          1. And the explanation that DACA was illegal, according to the current court decision logic on an extremely similar case, wasn’t enough?

            1. What? The Court said it was enough for the benefits part. But that is what the cases were about and the administration didn’t say anything about if or how that applied to deferred action. That is why it failed the APA. I personally think the deferred action is akin to prosecutorial discretion and therefore that aspect of DACA was legal for Obama to do and legal for Trump to rescind as they did. The Court’s logic here would appear to apply just as much to DACA’s implementation as to rescision. It doesn’t need notice and comment but it isn’t prosecutorial discretion so the APA does apply and they have to adequately state the reasons. I think that dooms the deferred action part of DACA as well since they didn’t have authorization. But this case isn’t about whether DACA was legal. It was about whether the rescision needed to comply, and if so did comply, with the APA. Again just because one administration does something illegal doesn’t mean the next can follow suit to undo it. There is a legal avenue to undo and the initial illegality supplies the perfectly valid reason to do so that the APA requires. But they have to state that at the time.

    2. I haven’t had time (ok, to be honest, the energy) to read the opinion this morning, but from my knowledge of the underlying decisions and Adler’s tweets, I’d be quite surprised if the court ruled that the rescission required formal notice-and-comment. I thought the majority found it was subject to APA review, but not that it required notice and comment rulemaking process to rescind. Many apologies if that is in fact what the court held today.

      1. It was subject to the APA. The vast majority of APA issues require notice and rule making.

        The opinion didn’t formally ask for notice and rule making. I wouldn’t be surprised if courts did ask for it, in the future, in the cancellation of the policy. The dissent notes that DACA should have had notice and rule making periods, before implimentation.

        1. The vast majority of APA issues require notice and rule making

          This is quite untrue. Guidance letters and adjudication are both common ACA issues in court.

          1. Guidance letters are by definition not binding. But you are correct that adjudication is an equal method of making rules.

            1. APA issues include guidance letters. Not all issues involve rulemaking.

              A friend of mine did a survey of Supreme Court cases that dealt with guidance letters. They are justiciable.

    3. “But eliminating this illegal program, passed without any APA rulemaking program now REQUIRES an APA commenting period? That’s….nuts.”

      That’s also not the holding. Please read footnote 1 of the opinion more carefully.

      “…then the APA doesn’t allow for elimination of them?”

      That isn’t the holding in this case. The APA allows for the elimination of DACA.

      “Can Trump set up a simple program with a quick memo that grants Babtist churches a billion dollars a year?”

      No, but for reasons that have nothing to do with DACA.

      I don’t agree with the holding because I think the Duke Memorandum should have been sufficient to overcome arbitrary and capricious, but the holding is merely that when an agency sets up a prosecutorial discretion policy in a way that creates reliance interests, removal of the program has to comply with the APA. I’ve only read the opinion (and not the dissents) but do they even disagree?

  4. I posted this on reddit, but it bears repeating here too.

    Anyone who asserts this is a liberal decision isn’t paying attention.
    1. The result was one of formalism over the APA. That isn’t really left or right and if anything leaned right as it required the government to be more transparent with reasoning

    2.The ruling necessarily implies that DACA, even the non benefit parts about simply being allowed to remain in the country, was not an act of prosecutorial discretion. If it was then the APA wouldn’t apply. That means when a conservative goes to court to say DACA is illegal then the liberals can’t say prosecutorial discretion. They have to explain how a law delegated them the authority to make the rule, and I doubt they’ll be able to convincingly find one.

    Ultimately this is a win for conservatives. It doesn’t even stop Trump from rescinding as long as the DHS fully states it’s reason. And a claim that this might be illegal (I think it isn’t but that is because I do think it was prosecutorial discretion which is why I also think that this rescision was ok) is plenty colorable to succeed.

    1. “Ultimately this is a win for conservatives.”

      LOL

      No one is going to buy this tripe. Its a typical one way ratchet decision, liberals do what they want and it can’t be repealed.

      1. Not even liberal/conservative. This happens to have been a Democrat policy and a Republican reversing it.

        But now the principle is set. So going forward, the president has the power to create all manner of rules by stroke of pen, and anyone wishing to reverse those rules will have to prove to the court that they really, really have a good reason (which presumably means one the court agrees with).

        I suppose this explains the crazed passion over supreme court nominations. Roe v. Wade is certainly a good argument generator, but I don’t think it is as life-and-death to most people as the passion around appointments and court packing would make it seem. But if we are moving into a world where the executive rules by fiat and the judiciary either offers assent or blocks their action, equally by fiat.. then judicial appointments matter even more than presidential elections.

        1. ” Roe v. Wade is certainly a good argument generator, but I don’t think it is as life-and-death to most people as the passion around appointments and court packing would make it seem.”

          That’s a pretty ironic statement concerning a ruling that literally handed out a constitutional ‘right’ to kill.

        2. If that’s the case, then what’s to stop Trump (or any other President in the future) to just issue a ‘Pen edict’ on the subject running parallel to Obama’s but obviously in opposition to it?

      2. Well, Bob, weren’t you telling us just yesterday on another thread that conservatives should win at all costs? Why are you upset when liberals follow your advice and do the same thing?

        Note: I do not agree that that’s what the liberals did here, but for sake of argument, I’ll take Bob’s position and run with it.

        1. I’m upset at Roberts who was a supposed conservative but isn’t.

          We ought to emulate the win at all costs libs, you are correct.

          1. You do realize that you’ve then given up the moral high ground and can’t really complain when you see liberals winning at any cost?

            Back up a minute. Conservatives already have the electoral college, the anti-democratic Senate, and gerrymandered house seats. Surely it’s fair for liberals to have at least one institution, like the courts. Conservatives can’t be expected to have *all* the unfair advantages.

            1. “moral high ground”

              That’s for church, not politics.

              I can still complain when I lose though I admire the left’s success ethic.

              1. An interesting interpretation of Jesus’ teachings: morals only apply inside church. Virtue has a cost. If it didn’t, it wouldn’t be a virtue. But I am glad you are just honest that you would rather win than be virtuous.

                (Or am I mistaken that you are Christian?)

    2. reddit is cancer. why do you waste your breath there?

      1. I use it for nerdy stuff.
        40K lore, Stellaris discussions, Star Trek, D&D.

    3. This assumes that the stated rationale is the real rationale. We won’t know how much of current jurisprudence against Trump is just TrumpLaw until another administration is in place, and the precedents created actually do or don’t get applied.

      1. Do you always assume bad faith? Aside from Sotomayor and Alito all the Justices have shown to be more than willing to make rulings that would appear to against type. This is pretty standard APA stuff here.

      2. Actually, I think we do know how much of the current jurisprudence is Trump law. 100%.

    4. 1. The government was plenty transparent. The AG said DACA’s illegal, based on court judgements with DAPA. We need to kill the program because it’s illegal.

      1a. Here’s the craziness. DACA is in essence two parts. A. Deferred Removal. B. Benefits granted. The court decision on DAPA said the benefits were illegal. And if it was just deferred removal, that would fall under INA and prosecutorial decision, and not be reviewable.

      But what the SCOTUS said is, yes, your reason is B is illegal, OK. But you didn’t give good reasons for ending A. This was arbitrary and capricious. Even if A was alone wouldn’t be reviewable.

      1. This is where we are reading it differently. I don’t think they are saying A alone isn’t reviewable. My reading is that that A is reviewable as well. That is that it isn’t prosecutorial discretion.

      2. This isn’t necessarily true. There are aspects of A that go beyond mere prosecutorial discretion (and are therefore reviewable) but which are not necessarily illegal for the reasons in B.

  5. “But the arbitrariness and caprice were the whole point!!”

  6. Conservatives are always just one vote away from a reliable conservative majority.

    1. That’s what you get when you keep changing what it means to be “conservative.”

      1. Conservative (n): A moderate from 6 months ago

    2. Funny how that works. Who are the scheming liars that arrange this and how do they do it?

      1. Who are the scheming liars that arrange this

        Jumping straight to a conspiracy.

  7. This is comical. Remember when Obama admitted DACA was unconstitutional and then did it anyway?

    At the time, the defenders of DACA’s constitutionality, such as Ilya Somin who very obviously behaves as a zealous advocate for his open borders ideology, primarily resorted to screeching “BUT THIS IS AN EXECUTIVE ACTION THAT CAN BE RESCINDED EASILY BY ANY PRESIDENT AT ANY TIME!!”

    1. It is easy. The admin just managed to screw up easy.

      1. Wrong. The super legislature decided they didn’t want to allow this, and so they didn’t.

        Per Adler, “the Trump Administration had no obligation to provide any explanation at all for its rescission, and that the conclusion that DACA was unlawful was more than sufficient to justify its rescission.”

        1. Prof. Adler disagreeing with the Supreme Court does not mean the main opinion is made in bad faith.

          Reliance interests require due process. This is the law.
          Deal with it; do not retreat to paranoid speculation about motives.

  8. This opinion is a waste of time. Summary: Go back and say pretty please.

    “The dispute before the Court is not whether [the Department of Homeland Security] may rescind DACA. All parties agree that it may. The dispute is instead primarily about the procedure the agency followed in doing so”

    What the heck was Roberts thinking wasting his time on this?

    1. They are trying to run out the clock – on the administration and for DACA beneficiaries who are establishing ties to the community and starting families of their own.

      1. Right, that’s always the argument. Let “temporary” people stay for a long time, and then when you try to remove them, say “Hey, they have CITIZEN children and have families here! It’s an extreme hardship to deport them now!”

        I don’t know why leftists think America is obligated to turn itself into a mestizo nation. If whites are going to displace themselves, do so with 105 IQ Asians, not 85 IQ mestizos or 75 IQ Africans.

      2. Trump fans complaining about ‘running out the clock’ are among my favorite tone-deaf losers.

      3. Those who fail to learn from history — “Operation Wetback” was Eisenhower, no rabid right-winger.

    2. “What the heck was Roberts thinking wasting his time on this?”

      That not politicizing SCOTUS means not addressing contentious issues and just kicking the can down the road to be dealt with at a later time. Apparently he fails to realize that such inaction is a major force driving the politicization of his court.

  9. As an a aside, Roberts refers to the Dreamers as “unauthorized aliens,” while Thomas calls them “illegal aliens.” No one calls them “undocumented immigrants.”

    1. Well, why would you call them undocumented, in this particular instance? Part of DACA was giving them documents, so they’re not like your usual illegal alien who’s using forged ID.

  10. Sandra Day O’Roberts strikes again.

    I wouldn’t worry about the details of what will be required of Administrations going forward. It will depend on the politics of the case and the election calendar.

    1. It is with great sadness that I concede you may be correct about that.

  11. Power to the oligarchy!

    “The judiciary of the United States is the subtle corps of sappers and miners constantly working underground to undermine our Constitution from a co-ordinate of a general and special government to a general supreme one alone. This will lay all things at their feet. … I will say, that “against this every man should raise his voice,” and, more, should uplift his arm..”

    Thomas Jefferson

  12. “Roberts decisions avoid disruption”

    Well, except when he invented an entire new category of taxes and penalties out of whole cloth to support an unprecedented and brand new federal authority to require health insurance purchases by all Americans.

  13. ” So even though the Obama Administration created DACA with the stroke of a pen, more than the mere stroke of a pen was required to rescind it.”

    And Joe Sixpack is supposed to retain respect for the courts and the legal profession?

    1. Did Joe Sixpack ever respect courts and lawyers? How many simple people have had their lives ruined by a family court?

      1. Family Courts do not ruin lives. For his troubles, Joe SixPack can blame his tendency to think with the wrong head and consequent failure to follow one of two axioms of male self-preservation: (1) Never stick your dick in crazy, and (2) if you’re already married to the crazy, get a vasectomy and resign yourself to a life of misery until the youngest is 18.

  14. I’m not really persuaded by the Court’s arbitrary and capricious analysis here, although I am happy with the result.

    In any event, rescinding DACA was ultimately extremely bad move both from a moral standpoint and a political one.

    Deporting people brought here as children from the only home they know is gravely immoral. It is a cruel punishment for a decision they did not make. If such a program were widespread I think a fair number of future historians might refer to it as akin to other forms of ethnic cleansing.

    Because of the moral depravity of this, it was never good politics to rescind it. Obviously judges were not going to be sympathetic to it. And attacking the Court for this decision isn’t going to inspire widespread support except among the already converted. “Elect me so we can have more judges that will let me deport people from the only homes they have ever known” is not a position that will earn widespread support.

    1. If a parent steals a car, and gives it to their child, is it immoral to take the car back from the child? Despite it being the only car the child has ever owned?

      1. Does taking the car separate them permanently from their livelihood, friends, and family and place them in a place where they may not even know the language?

        This is an obtuse analogy. I think you would be far more upset if I kidnapped you and sent you to a country where you have no connections and don’t speak the language than you would be if I stole your car. Even if it was your only car.

        1. “Does taking the car separate them permanently from their livelihood,” It could.

          But sure, here’s a different example.

          If a parent illegally bribes a university into letting their kids in, and it’s discovered, should the kids still be allowed into the university? Or should they be expelled?

          1. If they are expelled would they end up by force away from their friends and family in a country they have no connection to?

            1. They would end up by force away from their friends and livelyhood for sure if expelled from college.

              1. So when you get expelled from college, someone will prevent them from seeing their friends anywhere in the country? They can’t meet up at a bar or a restaurant or their off campus house? They can’t reapply to college? Are they now unable to communicate that they need food, shelter, or life saving medicines? Because that can happen to someone deported into a country where they have no connection.

                1. They can see their friends in a different country. They can apply for a visa to come back to the US. They can communicate just fine in other countries, it just takes more work.

                  1. Tell that to Jimmy Aldaoud. Except you can’t because he died in Iraq without insulin.

                    But, I have to ask, as I usually do when people defend the immoral: Are you willing to personally take a child from their home, at gunpoint, load them on a plane and fly it to another country and force them off, then leave? If you are? What would you say to them when they ask why you are doing this to them? Would you feel bad? Would you feel like you are doing something wrong?

                    1. “Are you willing to personally take a child from their home, at gunpoint, load them on a plane and fly it to another country and force them off, then leave?”

                      Like Elian Gonzalez?

                    2. Yes. Exactly. Do you actually think I agree with that at all?

                    3. And that’s a tragedy. But an isolated tragedy doesn’t make good policy.

                      But when you defend and support illegal behavior, you get more illegal behavior. And you make a lot more people a lot worse off in the end.

                    4. Isolated tragedy, it’s not isolated if hundreds of thousands of people are affected. And just because something is “good policy” doesn’t make it morally good. You know in your heart it is wrong, probably don’t have the guts to do it yourself, but defend it on vaguely utilitarian grounds that aren’t readily apparent anyway.

                    5. I don’t like it, but it’s necessary. There are lots of things I don’t like, but which are necessary.

                      When you “help” this person with their illegal actions, you end up hurting others. And the failure to see how you are hurting others is a major flaw here.

                    6. The hurt is abstract and based on economic models and assumptions about how society works. Meanwhile the harm to the deportee is extremely real and apparent.

                    7. You’re arguing against risk-based assessment of future harms? Seriously? That it doesn’t somehow count because it’s “abstract” compared to an immediate harm?

                    8. LawTalkingGuy:

                      If the applicable statute says that the child shall be deported should the president refuse to faithfully execute this law? Could you state the principle that you think justifies the president in faithfully executing particular laws, as required by Article II Sec. 3 and his oath of office?

                    9. That is, justifies the president into refusing to faithfully execute…

                    10. Hey, swood.

                      Is your issue with the requirement to have factual findings before making a broad use of prosecutorial discretion?

                      Or do you not think discretion applies in this area, and believe that the President must deport all illegals in the country in order to abide by his oath?

                    11. Or do you not think discretion applies in this area

                      The president has been given very wide discretion in order to be able to handle truly unique cases. Do you think it was intended to allow him or her to make major structural changes to the law? For example, if the tax rate is X the president can decide that a rate of .5X would be good for the economy and exercise his discretion to refuse to prosecute people who pay at least .5X. What is the principle, if any, that would disallow this but permit him or her to use the same type of discretion to carve out exceptions in the immigration laws?

                    12. Swood, I don’t really take a position on it. I’m more concerned with the moral matter. I assume you also believe there are moral limits to legal commands. Replace “deport” with “execute” and see what you think he should do.

                    13. You’re arguing against risk-based assessment of future harms?

                      Yes if the response to the risk assessment is an extremely serious and known and concrete harm like ripping someone from the only home they have known. And I assume you have your limits too. I don’t suppose you would support rounding up undocumented immigrants and placing them in extermin

                    14. Ah, got cut off:

                      cpnt’d: extermination camps to reduce the unemployment rate of citizens. And under some articulated legal theories regarding the undocumented, there is actually nothing to prevent this.

                    15. When granting broad discretion, you grant the potential to use it in unexpected ways.
                      But I do get your concerns. Seems to me that requiring an administrative finding when using discretion to enact broad policy strikes the right balance between broad discretion and unfettered power.
                      Which seems to be the current state of the law.

                    16. requiring an administrative finding when using discretion to enact broad policy strikes the right balance between broad discretion and unfettered power.

                      Did Obama act in DACA in accordance with an administrative finding?

                      So the president appoints administrators who find that a 50% reduction in the tax rate for certain taxpayers would be just the discretion that is needed, and he has struck the right balance and can go ahead?

                    17. Re: LawTalkingGuy, “extermination camps ”

                      Umm… What “legal theories” are you possibly talking about. My “legal theory” is called laws against murder, which explicitly prohibit this.

                      They get returned to the country where they are citizens. And their family who came over illegally can be returned with them, so they have family which knows the area well. Their family can help them adjust to the new country, as is their responsibility, as they brought them over illegally in the first place.

                    18. LawTalkingGuy:

                      I assume you also believe there are moral limits to legal commands. Replace “deport” with “execute” and see what you think he should do.

                      Shouldn’t the president refuse to accept a position that requires him to vow to execute immoral laws? Or should he vow, knowing that he will break his vow?

                    19. I don’t like it, but it’s necessary.

                      No. It’s not “necessary.” Nothing makes it necessary. No great evil will befall the country if it’s not done, and a lot of evil will befall those deported.

                    20. You’re arguing against risk-based assessment of future harms?

                      Where are these assessments that show letting the Dreamers stick around is long-run harmful?

                      And I’m not talking about stuff anti-immigrant zealots pull out of their rear ends.

                    21. Armchair:

                      Currently, at least one judge on the DC Circuit, Karen Henderson believes the Fifth Amendment does not apply to undocumented immigrants. If that is the case, there is no constitutional prohibition to their summary execution.

                    22. Bernard,

                      It’s necessary, because if it isn’t done, it’s de facto open borders.

                      Anyone who gets in, no matter if it’s legal or illegal, can stay, because it’s “wrong” to deport them.

                      And there are a lot of problems with open borders.

                    23. “Are you willing to personally take a child from their home, at gunpoint, load them on a plane and fly it to another country and force them off, then leave?”

                      What does this have to do with DACA? Unless I’m missing something, DACA doesn’t apply to anyone under 8 years old, and does apply to people up to 39 years old. Plus, anyone who was brought into the country after 2012 is still eligible for deportation, regardless of their age. What makes this one category of illegal immigrants worthy of special protection?

            2. In addition, you avoid the question of perverse incentives here.
              For example. How should someone immigrate to the U.S. ?
              Should they:
              1. Follow the law, and immigrate legally, even if there’s a queue and wait.
              2. Immigrate illegally, and wait to be legalized through amnesty or amnesty-like measures, while living illegally.

              1. They were brought here as children. They didn’t make the decision. If you’re three and brought here by your parents you didn’t decide anything. It is immoral to punish innocent parties to deter other potential lawbreakers.

                1. “It is immoral to punish innocent parties to deter other potential lawbreakers.”

                  See the above examples, in regards to cars and college educations.

                  You appear to have no hesitation to remove cars and college educations from the innocent parties there. Why not?

                  1. Well I actually don’t necessarily agree with the college education thing. If the student is otherwise performing well and took no part in the deception it would be wrong to punish them. As for the car, it would be wrong if the car was seized and went anywhere other than to the original owner.

                    But again, you are being willfully obtuse about the stakes here with your analogies. Being forced to leave your home permanently for a place you have zero connection to, and may be extremely unsafe, is absolutely not the same as a temporary setback that occurs in your home.

                    1. OK, allow me to state this more thoroughly.

                      Parents are responsible for the decisions for their children and for the effect those decisions have. Parents generally want the best for their children. That’s not a surprise. And parents will, on occasion, do illegal things to assist their children.

                      And here’s where we get into a conundrum. We don’t want people doing illegal things. But, if they do those illegal things, and get what they want, EVEN IF THEY ARE CAUGHT, then they’ll continue doing them. That’s simply rational, and a cost-benefit-risk analysis.

                      If, for example, you really want your kid to have a new car, and you know even if you’re caught, the kid will keep the new car, then you’ll just steal it for him. It’s just a price, and a win-win calculation for you. You either give him the car, and are caught, or better, give him the car, and aren’t caught. And so, you’ll see a rash of car thefts. The question is, who is hurt? (the person who’s car is stolen).

                      If you can bribe your kid’s way into college, and you know she will stay in school, even if the bribery is found out, then you’ll do it. Even if you’re caught. Again, win-win. But, if the bribery is found out, and the kid is kicked out, then it may not be worth it. So, you’ll see less bribery. Who is hurt here? The kid who wasn’t using bribery to get into college, and didn’t get in because the bribing kid took his place.

                      With illegal immigration, again, if you can get your kid U.S. Citizenship just by bringing them over illegally, it’s a win-win. You’re either not caught (and the kid gets US citizenship), or you are caught, deported, (maybe sneak back in), and your kid still has U.S. citizenship. Who is hurt here? The legal immigrant who was trying to get in, but got his quota reduced because there were too many illegal immigrants (as well as other people, low wage employees, etc.)

                      If you want to discourage illegal behavior, then you need for it not to pay off if it is caught. If it’s caught and STILL pays off, then people will keep doing it. It’s win/win. But there’s always a loser here, and it usually the people who play by the rules, and don’t do things illegally. So, does it suck if the DACAs are deported? Yes. But their parents made an illegal choice, and they may have to live with the consequences of that illegal choice. Otherwise, you just encourage illegal behavior, and hurt the people who are trying to follow the rules and legally immigrate.

                    2. But their parents made an illegal choice, and they may have to live with the consequences of that illegal choice.

                      Yeah. So you are punishing the kids for the sins of the parents. That is immoral. You can justify it on the policy grounds of deterrence, but can’t claim it is moral in any way.

                    3. Again, you didn’t disagree with seizing the car from the kid, the one the parents stole for him.

                      That’s “punishing the kid” for the sins of the parent.

                      You understand why this happens. The “sin of the parent” directly benefited the child.

                    4. And again, your analogy is completely obtuse to the stakes involved here. You can’t support that morality of deporting kids so you have to compare it to cars to pretend you aren’t defending the indefensible.

                    5. You’ve got to make your mind up here.

                      You don’t like the example with the car, but you’re clearly punishing the child for the sins of the patents.

                      Either this is moral, or it’s not. Which is it? Or is it OK to punish the kid for the sins of the father with some cases, and not with other cases?

                    6. I think it is more likely than not immoral unless it is readily apparent that the car belongs to someone else and they can find that person and return it. There you have competing concrete moral imperatives that are apparent as opposed to abstract and hypothetical ideas like the “theft of an education” or the social and economic impact of more people being present in the country. When you are confronted with an extremely real harm to an innocent party you cannot justify that on abstract policy grounds, anymore than you could justify child imprisonment in support of any other policy goal.

                    7. “I think it is more likely than not immoral ”

                      I simply can’t support this. People should not be allowed to benefit and profit from their crimes, and this would allow it.

                      Steal a car, give it to your kid, and your family gets to keep the car. “Can’t punish the kid.”

                      Sell a million dollars of cocaine on the street, put it into your kid’s bank account, and keep the money (Or the “kid” keeps the money). Otherwise you’re punishing the kid.

                      Your kid is stuck as backup QB for high school football. Go, break the starting QB’s legs. Look, your kid is now starting QB!. Can’t punish the kid, he gets to stay as starting QB.

                      No. It’s not right.

                    8. Armchair, all of these analogies still pale in comparison to getting removed from your home.

                      Not getting to keep a million dollars is not the same as being removed from your home by force. Nor is not getting to start as QB.

                      You are using these analogies to justify supporting something you know you know deep down to be very wrong.

                    9. LawTalking,

                      If you can’t support deportation for breaking the law, illegal entry and illegal entrance, then you simply don’t support immigration laws being enforced. Which is a de facto open borders situation.

                      That has a whole host of different problems.

                  2. These analogies really are pathetic.

                    Deporting someone has orders of magnitude, maybe orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude, greater impact than taking back a stolen car.

                    1. Bernard,

                      It’s a simple question really. Should somebody be allowed to profit, via themselves or via their family, for a crime committed?

                      My opinion is no.

          2. Is there any evidence that the kid was complicit? If not, why would they be expelled? What’s your argument for expelling them?

              1. The link is about Georgetown expelling a student for lying on his application. The student denies it (on the basis that he had no knowledge of the lie) but that’s disputed. I’ll ask again: if it’s true that the student had no knowledge of the bribe, what’s your basis for suspending them?

        2. BS they don’t know the language….

          1. And your basis for that is? I mean if they have lived in the United States from a very young age and don’t use anything other than English regularly they won’t know it.

            And I assume you are imagining Spanish speakers, but it could also be French, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Tagalog, Chinese, Arabic, any number of other European or African languages, etc., that might be less common in the States than Spanish so they might have less opportunities to use it anyway.

      2. If someone steals your car, you don’t get to just steal it back. There are legal processes for recovering your chattels.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detinue

    2. I didn’t know morality was determined democratically? I thought morality was derived from the word of God.

      1. The morality of any act can be determined independently based on several philosophical approaches and may or may not be commensurate with popular opinion.

        1. Do you work for the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMbLA)?

          1. No. What’s that have to do with anything?

        2. Were right and wrong products of the big bang or did they come into existence at some other time?

          1. An interesting and old question that I don’t have an answer to. But, regardless of whether moral principles are discovered or created as time goes on, they exist.

            1. But, regardless of whether moral principles are discovered or created as time goes on, they exist.

              Well, that begs the question as to whether they exist. If the propensity to see things in moral terms developed in homo sapiens because they increased the survival possibilities of those possessing this way of viewing the world wouldn’t morality just be a social construct, one that exists only for those who perceive and accept it? Social constructs exist for those who recognize them. Does morality exist even for the sociopath?

              For the Christian, Jew or Muslim morality exists as a command of God, regardless of anybody else thinks of the matter. How does morality exist objectively in a materialistic world? Wouldn’t it have to have been created at the big bang?

              1. Consider for a moment why atheists are not noted for their immorality.

                Do you blame it on the big bang?

                1. Consider for a moment why atheists are not noted for their immorality.

                  Could you provide a reference to the enhanced moral standing of atheists? That’s really a new one.

                  You must be excluding the opinions of those who believe that violation of the Great Commandment is the most extreme immorality. My question remains: How does morality exist objectively in a materialistic world?

                  1. Not enhanced. Normal.

                    The Great Commandment renders this issue degenerate. Along with all moral questions regarding those who do not share your faith.

                    Looking to morality as in having a distinction between right and wrong, I would ask you if YOU believe that atheists cannot make such distinctions.

                    I do not require metaphysics to see that they do. Do you?

                    Note that I am not an atheist. Or an agnostic.

                    1. The Great Commandment renders this issue degenerate. Along with all moral questions regarding those who do not share your faith.

                      Because the Great Commandment simply represents morality for some but not morality for all? Is that what you think morality is all about? Each person has his own and nobody’s is the “real” morality?

                    2. No, because by it’s nature, the GC means we cannot have a discussion regarding the morality of those who do not share your faith.
                      They are all per-se immoral to you. As an axiomatic matter.
                      Which makes me wonder why you think this is even a discussion worth having.

                    3. No, because by it’s nature, the GC means we cannot have a discussion regarding the morality of those who do not share your faith.

                      So you think that those who have adopted the GC as a moral truth did not arrive there the same way as everybody else who adopts a moral standard? They are the unreasonable ones and everybody else is reasonable?

                      They are all per-se immoral to you. As an axiomatic matter.

                      Whereas the person who believes that rape is wrong does not hold this belief axiomatically?

                    4. You seem to be arguing that you axiomatically believe that atheists are immoral.
                      And then you are asking me to justify why atheists have a moral sense. But based on what you’ve laid out as your belief system, that does not seem possible. Any example I give you can just say ‘they don’t believe in God, so they’re immoral.’

                      That’s a dumb game. I won’t play unless you take away that short-circuit for the sake of argument.

                    5. You seem to be arguing that you axiomatically believe that atheists are immoral.

                      Where did I say that I believe that atheists are immoral, much less that I believe so axiomatically? I talked about “those who believe that violation of the Great Commandment is the most extreme immorality.” And why do you assert that such people believe this axiomatically, or at least arrive at their beliefs in a manner different from the way others arrive at theirs?

                      Any example I give you can just say ‘they don’t believe in God, so they’re immoral.’

                      But look, any philosopher who arrives at a system of morality has to start from something that to him is axiomatic and reason from there. Why are his axioms OK but theistic axioms are not?

                    6. I’m not arguing against faith-based philosophical precepts. I’m arguing that the GC is not a useful thing to take as a given when we are discussing the morality of atheists because it short-circuits the discussion.

                      But to keep you from continuing to go in circles, I return to my previous question – do YOU observe atheists to be notably immoral. If not, why do you think that is, if you believe they cannot arrive at a sense of right and wrong absent some external influence (e.g. big-bang created morality)?

                    7. I’m not arguing against faith-based philosophical precepts. I’m arguing that the GC is not a useful thing to take as a given when we are discussing the morality of atheists because it short-circuits the discussion.

                      I wasn’t proposing it be accepted as a given by both sides in an argument. I was responding to your assertion that atheists are not noted for their immorality. Suppose somebody said that rapists are not known for their immorality and you replied that rape is itself immoral, and the other said that he can’t have an argument with somebody who believes axiomatically that rape is immoral. That is this argument.

                      But to keep you from continuing to go in circles, I return to my previous question – do YOU observe atheists to be notably immoral. If not, why do you think that is, if you believe they cannot arrive at a sense of right and wrong absent some external influence (e.g. big-bang created morality)?

                      Of course atheists have a sense of right and wrong. I’m sorry that you have difficulty understanding me. My only point is that the atheist has no way of asserting that his particular morality is THE objectively true morality. That it is a real thing that exists, regardless of what anybody might think about it, and not just a set of social rules agreed upon in order to make life more agreeable. Suppose somebody said that it is immoral for you to have more assets than anybody else in the world. You would ignore that as not a rule of morality that is applicable to you. Suppose somebody says that he rejects the notion that rape is immoral. Of course the criminal law is applicable to him but is the immorality of rape applicable to him? If so, what makes it so?

              2. Homo sapiens developed survival responses to gravity. That doesn’t make gravity impossible in a materialistic world. (Or, if you think it does, you’re the one begging the question.) I acknowledge that you don’t think objective morality exists in a material world. So what?

                1. I acknowledge that you don’t think objective morality exists in a material world. So what?

                  In a materialistic world. The point was only to respond to LawTalkingGuy who asserted that atheistic systems of arriving at morality are just as valid. My point is that in a theistic world morality is an objective, real thing, and doesn’t depend on anybody’s assent. Things are “really” wrong, in an absolute sense. But otherwise morality is a human construct and is subjective. It’s wrong for you but not for me. You can think that something is absolutely wrong for everybody but that’s just your opinion.

                  1. You do not need to believe in God to believe morality is objective.

                    Metaphysical != supernatural.

                    My church is full of such people.

                  2. Not only is objective morality possible in a materialistic world, theistic morality either proves that there is a non-theistic objective morality, or denies entirely the existence of an objective morality.

                    If what is moral is what God commands, that means God only commands things that are moral (which implies that there is an objective morality that God merely communicates, in which event it exists independently of God). Alternatively, if what God commands is moral (regardless of the content of the command) then there is no objective morality; it’s subjective, in this case the subjective whim of God. The salient feature of moral relativism is that it can change. And if God can change morality, then the moral theory is not objective.

      2. See that’s your problem you don’t understand the origin of morals and that they are context dependent.

  15. I suspect Trump is privately happy with the decision. The rescission makes him look tough to his base, he gets to bash Roberts, and he avoids the wrath of the majority had he implemented the rescission.

    1. Trump-world might be, Trump himself is so all over the place, it’s impossible to tell.

    2. Didn’t take very long …

    3. “These horrible & politically charged decisions coming out of the Supreme Court are shotgun blasts into the face of people that are proud to call themselves Republicans or Conservatives,” Trump said in one tweet. “We need more Justices or we will lose our 2nd. Amendment & everything else. Vote Trump 2020!”

      In the second tweet, Trump asked: “Do you get the impression that the Supreme Court doesn’t like me?”

      1. I am assuming he is also referring to Bostock there, but I got the impression on Monday that he didn’t care very much. Someone must have told him his DOJ opposed it and that it is linked to a broader pattern of judges undermining his greatness.

      2. I’m thinking it was wise to deny cert on the gun cases.

    4. Josh R this is an extremely poor political analysis. First of all Trump wants to give massive amnesty to DACA and beyond, he’s said so many times including in his first SOTU. Yet he also wants RAISE Act, end chain migration, stop illegal immigration permanently through security and closing loopholes, etc. Democrats want none of that and offer nothing, because demographic replacement through massive amounts of legal and illegal immigration is the beginning and end of their short, medium and long term strategy and chances. The Republican establishment also wants none of it because both working class and white collar class wages must be suppressed as much as possible through labor oversupply. Given this political dynamic, there is little path forward for the Trump agenda (which polls show is broadly popular with Americans and even in some cases more popular with minorities than with whites) until the footing is made more equal by rescinding DACA, which was enacted with the stroke of a pen and should be able to be ended with the stroke of a pen. Second, this hurts Trump because voters will stay home when they correctly see the truth of the matter which is that voting and winning makes little difference. It doesn’t hurt Republican establishment types that don’t mind being in the minority.

      1. First of all Trump wants to give massive amnesty to DACA and beyond

        He wants to give massive amnesty only in exchange for meaningful immigration reform.

        Second, this hurts Trump because voters will stay home when they correctly see the truth of the matter which is that voting and winning makes little difference.

        No, they’ll realize that this action by the Supreme Court was just a delaying action. They can’t fault trump for that. He just has to give the specified reasons next time. Trump is their only hope of achieving immigration reform and he has given them no reason to question his sincerity on that score. You’re suggesting that his supporters are just going to give up on that and placidly accept the Democrat approach to immigration (i.e., open border). Won’t happen. But this decision did save Trump from having to threaten the Democrats with revoking DACA, just before an election, in order to force them to the immigration bargaining table, and thus risk alienating some voters on the fence who don’t want these people deported.

  16. “You seem to consider the judges the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions; a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges … and their power [are] the more dangerous as they are in office for life, and are not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves … . When the legislative or executive functionaries act unconstitutionally, they are responsible to the people in their elective capacity. The exemption of the judges from that is quite dangerous enough. I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves.”

    Thomas Jefferson

    1. Tom SAID a lot of good things about judicial despotism but when he had the opportunity to DO something after Marbury, he passed because he liked the result. So here we are.

      1. What did he have the opportunity to do, that he passed on? Marbury v Madison struck down the law giving the Supreme Court jurisdiction over Marbury’s case. What was Jefferson supposed to do?

        1. Get Marshall impeached, get a Constitutional amendment clarifying that the courts could not strike down an act of congress.

          “Marbury v Madison struck down the law giving the Supreme Court jurisdiction over Marbury’s case. ”

          Right, he won the case, Marbury didn’t get his commission. So he grumbled about despotism and let the despotism take root.

          1. Get Marshall impeached, get a Constitutional amendment clarifying that the courts could not strike down an act of congress.

            If he couldn’t even impeach Samuel Chase how was he supposed to get Marshall impeached? After Marbury no federal legislation was struck down until Dred Scott in 1857. How was he supposed to arouse the interest of people in this when it appeared that the court was using admirable restraint? What argument was he supposed to make to convince people that the Supreme Court threatened the constitution? Which side was more likely to violate the constitution, congress or the courts? Furthermore, Jefferson had no inkling just how far afield the court would eventually go.

            1. He didn’t even try. Amending the constitution on the basis the court was seizing power rightfully belonging to the people might have worked. He had huge congressional majorities.

              The Chase impeachment failure was a disaster for the republic.

              1. Neither CJ Marshall nor the Marbury decision originated the idea that the Supreme Court could strike down an act of Congress. When you have a free week, you might want to read Jack Rakove’s great book Original Meanings.

  17. I think that its becoming clear to me that Roberts has no independent brain. When Scalia was alive, Roberts muse was Scalia was Scalia (or maybe Kennedy). With both gone, now its Kagan.

    When someone else gets appointed, Roberts may change his muse gain.

    1. The Obamacare case was when Scalia was still alive.

    2. I disagree that Roberts has no independent brain. What you are seeing more are his idiosyncracies and his personal avoidance of sweeping pronouncements striking down legislation, existing case law, etc. when there is a way to avoid that. He is so afraid of being the next Roger Taney that he does not want to be like Justices Alito and Thomas and essentially have an alter-ego of the Warren Court making sweeping changes to the law based on the most dubious of precedents when it is not even necessary to decide the case. If you look at case assignments, he seems to assign it to Alito less in 5-4 cases than he does to others or himself (excluding Thomas, but that is because Thomas is usually writing a concurrence for only Thomas).

  18. “If [as the Federalists say] “the judiciary is the last resort in relation to the other departments of the government,” … , then indeed is our Constitution a complete felo de so. … The Constitution, on this hypothesis, is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they may please. It should be remembered, as an axiom of eternal truth in politics, that whatever power in any government is independent, is absolute also”

    Jefferson

  19. “There is no danger I apprehend so much as the consolidation of our government by the noiseless, and therefore unalarming, instrumentality of the Supreme Court.”

  20. “One single object … will entitle you to the endless gratitude of society; that of restraining judges from usurping legislation.”

  21. Once again, Roberts grabs for what he can in order to defeat a cheapjack and unserious Republican position. This was a result that had to be reached. No more Bush v. Gores.

    1. WTF? Are you retarded?

  22. Chocolate Jesus apparently just got to do what he wanted. Bad Orange Man better explain himself. Where were these bastards when Obo was spreading the ink?

    1. That’s weird. For years we heard that Obozo was a terrible law-defying guy because he kept getting actions blocked or overturned by the Supreme Court. Apparently they were somewhere.

  23. Soooo, how does all this fit into the faux-righteous slogan ‘if Congress won’t act I will’?

    1. Sorry, there’s a new judicial standard. It’s called “if Congress won’t act the Supreme Court has the right to enact its preferred legislation.”

  24. “Among other things, it seems to suggest that when the Executive Branch concludes an existing policy is illegal, it can’t simply stop the policy, but has to publicly examine a range of alternatives even if the action in question is not an agency action with the force of law (such as a duly promulgated regulation).”

    I should probably read the opinion first, but wouldn’t this be limited to only those policies that interfere with a settled expectation? If the EPA has been enforcing regulations concerning X, but then decides X isn’t covered, is there a settled expectation that is frustrated when the EPA changes course?

    1. I don’t think so. Section III.B, the agency’s obligation to explain why it rejected alternatives to rescinding an illegal policy is a separate problem from the failure to consider the reliance interests. See page 23 of the slip opinion.

      1. I have now read the opinion, and re-read III.B and page 23. I see what you are saying. But the opinion raises another rejoinder. If agency action X enacts A and B, but B is illegal, rescinding A requires more than just asserting that B is illegal. And so I don’t think it’s the case (from the opinion) that we can assume the entire policy is illegal merely because one aspect of it is illegal. If A and B were both illegal, the rejection of alternatives section (III.B) would have written differently, and the failure to consider the reliance interests would have been the deciding issue.

        1. “If agency action X enacts A and B, but B is illegal, rescinding A requires more than just asserting that B is illegal.”

          Why? Why isn’t B’s illegality enough of a justification to rescind Action X?

          Alternatively, if A & B have to be considered separately, why wasn’t the memo about B’s illegality enough to justify the termination of B?

          “he failure to consider the reliance interests”

          How can there be reliance interests in a temporary program that is specifically labeled as a temporary program?

          1. I think the memo is sufficient to satisfy the APA’s arbitrary and capricious standard. I think the opinion is right to raise the problem, but as a matter of administrative law, the problem was sufficiently met by the government. So I agree with you.

            Re: temporary program, rights can vest in temporary programs. But I also think language in DACA speaks to the extent of the reliance interest. If the plaintiffs’ reliance was unjustified, they should (and will) lose.

            1. I think I’m coming around on that.
              As a functionalist, I think textualism ignoring intent is overly narrow. Similarly, I also think that forcing the factual record to ignore further developments is being overly formal and ignoring reality.

              But given the record, I think Roberts’ opinion is correct.

  25. So if the BATFE writes a memo saying it will consider a voter registration card a valid license to posses, carry, keep and bear any type of firearm and associated ammunition or accessories, and that license will be valid in all US states, territories, and possessions do all state infringements on the second amendment go away?
    Asking for a lot of friends.

    1. No, because the 9th Circuit is already issuing a nationwide injunction of that. And a nationwide injunction against attempts to lift that injunction.

  26. Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program.

  27. Justice Thomas very succinctly summed up what should have been a 9-0 decision based on teh facts: DHS created DACA during the Obama administration
    without any statutory authorization and without going
    through the requisite rulemaking process. As a result, the
    program was unlawful from its inception. The majority
    does not even attempt to explain why a court has the authority to scrutinize an agency’s policy reasons for rescinding an unlawful program under the arbitrary and capricious microscope. The decision to countermand an unlawful
    agency action is clearly reasonable. So long as the agency’s
    determination of illegality is sound, our review should be at
    an end.

    The entirety of the majority decision can be summed up in what now seems to be the presiding legal principle in court cases with a liberal judge deciding: “Orangeman Bad!”.

  28. I would assume without deciding that the APA applies, and then say that an administration can always enforce the law more strictly or rescind a prior administration’s prosecutorial leniency.

    “The President shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed.” Congress’ law said that DACA participants were in the US illegally and that execution of the laws requires their deportation. No more reason is needed than that. It simply doesn’t matter what was written in some memo or whether Justice Roberts thinks it was correct or clear or not.

    1. But that wasn’t the question before the Court.

      I believe there are other lawsuits about whether DACA is unconstitutional, though I don’t know where they are in the system.

  29. I would also be in lined to think that programs created without rulemaking can be rescinded without rulemaking, and if rulemaking was needed, that makes the program’s inception illegal.. What is sauce for the goose must be sauce for the gander.

    In my view the same discretion that permitted Obama to create the program permitted Trump to rescind it.

    1. I’m not sure that’s a universal logical rule.

      For adjudications, there is the famous Goldberg v. Kelley about how vested interests are harder to end than they are to grant due to due process rights.

      I don’t see any reason why such logic would not apply to broader systematic grants.

  30. “[Chief Justice Roberts] dislikes decisions that alter precedent, invalidate federal statutes, sweep too broadly or (as here) upset settled expectations or cause administrative disruptions.”

    In other words, Roberts demonstrates once again that he is Chief Wielder of the left-handed ratchet of stare decisis, in charge of advancing creeping Marxism in The United States.

  31. After 50 years of studying and practicing law, I’ve learned that when a court finds something invalid because it is allegedly “arbitrary and capricious,” it couldn’t find any legal error, but decided to make a political decision.

    1. Pretty much. “Arbitrary and capricious” means “It’s not the policy I would have chosen.”

    2. ‘Arbitrary and capricious’ is a standard of review, not a type of error.

      I don’t know in what area you practiced but I hope it was not admin!

      1. Providing yet another demonstration that you haven’t read the opinion and have no idea what you are talking about. Why don’t we look at what the opinion actually says, like Sarcastr0 should have done before smugly insulting Tall Paul.

        “That omission alone renders Acting Secretary Duke’s decision arbitrary and capricious.”

        “That failure was arbitrary and capricious in violation of the APA.”

        1. Both of your quotes indicate that a given error cleared the A&C threshold.

          A&C is not itself the error.

      2. I’m the last one to call foul on a little bit of performative pedantry every now and again, but I’m not following your diagnosis of a misuse of terminology in Tall Paul’s comment.

        1. Hey –

          I’ve learned that when a court finds something invalid because it is allegedly “arbitrary and capricious,” it couldn’t find any legal error
          Here, the Court did find legal errors, which is pointed out. You may not think they are valid errors, but the opinion does not lack for errors.

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How Are Things? Better. Better Than Tomorrow, Of Course—Worse Than Yesterday

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An old Communist-era joke from Poland (or at least that's how I heard it), which I was reminded about when talking to a fellow Russian emigre yesterday.

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  1. In Poland, it was said, nobody spoke Russian, but they all understood it.

  2. My favorite joke that came out of communism, said by factory workers: “We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us”.

  3. In Russia you do not eat bear, bear eats YOU!

  4. The movie “There’s Something About Mary” cribbed that line. When Ben Stiller asked Chris Elliott about married life, the latter replied, “Every day is better than the next.” What made it funny was that the line’s delivery suggested the opposite meaning.

  5. Today is much worse. Obama executive orders have the full force and effect of law. Trump can revoke them in theory, but the courts will keep delaying the effect until we have a Democrat as president.
    This is tyranny. And Trump is not the tyrant. We have a ruling elite that controls both political parties and enough of the judges to have prevent the non-elites from revoking elitist policies. This will not end well. The law is just sophistry; it will no longer protect us. A firestorm is coming. It will be awful. Many of us will probably not live to see the end of it. I know I probably won’t.

    1. This is tyranny. And Trump is not the tyrant. We have a ruling elite that controls both political parties and enough of the judges

      How is Trump not an elite?

      When you start channeling Huey Long, maybe check yourself.

      1. No politician can claim to not be a member of the elite. Even Bernie, with his two million dollar houses, is part of the elite. Think AOC is not elite? Guess again.

        Trump was an outsider of the elite. They wouldn’t let him into The Stonecutters, but even if he loses re-election he is going to land on his feet just like any other elite.

      2. First of all, I was way off topic. I missed that this was a thread about jokes.
        Second, just because you are rich does not mean you are part of the ruling elite. The entire ruling elite is opposed to Trump. If he gets reelected, it will be because the real proletariats out here are sick and tired of the elites and we are happy to have a demon monster like Trump stir the elites up.
        Trump will land on his feet; the rich usually do. However, it is possible that the next Dem administration will break whatever laws they can in order to destroy him financially and practically.

        1. Wow, Lindsay Graham is opposed to Trump? I guess so, if you ignore everything he has said and everything he has done over the past 3+ years. Marco Rubio is opposed to Trump? Maybe, if you ignore 99.46% of what he has said and done over the past 3+ years.
          Justice Kavanaugh is opposed to Trump? Um, sure.
          Trump grew up being pampered and coddled by his super-rich dad. Trump avoided military service by faking an injury and had the juice to get doctors to back him up. Got away with multiple sexual assaults. Used bankruptcy laws to screw over countless other people. Defrauded thousands more with a fake ‘university.’

          You excluding Trump from the ruling class (even as president, which is mind-blowing!!!) seems like the ultimate game of Pin The Tail on the True Scotsman.

          1. Your comment only shows that you have no idea who the ruling class is.

  6. From the American Anti-Communist era comes “If a kidnapper wishes to gain the confidence of a child to entice her into an automobile for dreadful purposes he does not give a long lecture about what will happen after she gets into the automobile. He gives her candy to win her confidence. The candy he gives is not bitter or poisoned candy, for the sweeter and better the candy, the greater the likelihood that the child will get into the automobile. ”

    That’s from the back cover of the [somewhat rambling] book entitled “You Can Trust The Communists” (at https://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/schwarz-cover.html ). The short book is interesting reading.

  7. We don’t actually know what tomorrow will be like; we haven’t seen tomorrow’s Supreme Court orders list yet.

  8. To conservatives, it appears, modern America is a blistering hellscape, with every day made worse than its predecessor by all of this damned progress.

    Reason, tolerance, science, modernity, education, inclusiveness — when and where will this end?

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Free Speech

Ordinary Woman Fired Because of Washington Post Article About Costume She Wore at Halloween Party Two Years Ago

Not a high-level official, not a spokesperson, not an endorser -- just an ordinary person.

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In the Washington Post, there's a long article that's hard to suitably excerpt (and that's unfortunately paywalled); but this should give you a sense of the matter:

A middle-aged white woman [went to Washington Post cartoonist Tom Toles' 2018 Halloween party wearing] a conservative business suit and a name tag that said, "Hello, My Name is Megyn Kelly." Her face was almost entirely blackened with makeup. Kelly, then an NBC morning show host, had just that week caused a stir by defending the use of blackface by white people: "When I was a kid, that was okay, as long as you were dressing up as, like, a character."

Two other guests, one Hispanic and one black, confronted the woman and got into an argument with her ("You understand how offensive that could be to a person of color?" / "I'm Megyn Kelly — it's funny!") and on from there.

Nearly two years later, the incident, which has bothered some people ever since but which many guests remember only barely or not at all, has resurfaced in the nationwide reckoning over race ….

The Hispanic guest wrote in an e-mail that, "After the killing of George Floyd and the protests, I began reflecting more on this incident." And of course, after the woman who wore the blackface "informed her employer, a government contractor, about the blackface incident and The Post's forthcoming article, she was fired, she said." Not even for what she did on the job, not even for what she did on television, but for a costume she wore at a party at a friend's house; that, at least, is this incident, but next it will be for something someone said over dinner, or a joke in a conversation among acquaintances.

You might recall the circumstances of the famous "have you left no sense of decency?" response by Joseph Welch to Sen. McCarthy: McCarthy was trying to publicly damage the career of Welch's associate (at the prominent Hale & Dorr law firm) for having been—about five years before—a member of the National Lawyers Guild, which had defended Communists, and which had Communists as some of its founding members. And that became, understandably, one of the great lines still remembered from the McCarthy era.

Also worth remembering from Welch's response:

Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad. It is true he is still with Hale & Dorr. It is true that he will continue to be with Hale & Dorr. It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty, I would do so. I like to think I'm a gentle man, but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me.

There's no particular individual figure in this story like Sen. McCarthy. But there is a broad segment of a broad social movement happy to use personal destruction as a weapon—a segment that is so focused on the evil of its core enemies (Communism and racism both serve well here) that recklessness, cruelty, and loss of a sense of decency naturally emerge, and directed at far more than the true Communists and racists. And there aren't a lot of Joseph Welches who will stand by the people who work for them, and thus risk themselves and their enterprises likewise being targeted.

UPDATE: Robby Soave here at Reason has more on this; here's an excerpt:

Between the elite media navel-gazing, the smug sanctimony of the cancelers, the absurd one-sidedness of the narrative structure, the spirit of revenge taken to an odious extreme, it's hard not to come away feeling nauseated…. [It's] emblematic of the rising dual trends of activist journalism and unforgiving progressivism ….

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  1. It’s not just about winning; it’s about hurting the other side and making them feel bad. This is a terrible precedent. Would a person of color be fired for wearing white-face? If not, then this is discrimination by race and is a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

    1. It’s not just about losing, it’s about convincing yourself you are victimized and oppressed.

      I don’t think this person should be fired, but your reading of the law is not great.
      There are some pretty strong cultural distinctions between whiteface and blackface.

      1. You are a piece of shit.

        1. He is, isn’t he? I don’t think he was always like this, but the left in their descent have taken him with them.

          1. Yes. Now do you see why I desire a complete collapse and civil war?

            1. You “desire a complete collapse and civil war,” but he’s the piece of shit? It’s even funnier since it’s likely you “desire” those things because you somehow believe you’ll be unaffected by them.

              If I’m being too obtuse, you are the piece of shit.

              1. No, I know I’ll be affected, but America is so far lost that we need it to completely burn so we can rebuild.

                1. Funny, there are people on the left whose analysis is exactly the same.

                  1. Yes. Except the people on my side have agriculture, mechanical, energy, military, and other experience, while the people on your side know how to make Impossible Burgers, kill their babies, and have gay anal sex.

                    I know where my bets are going to be.

                    1. ★My last month paycheck was for 1500 dollars… All i did was simple online work from comfort at home for 3-4 hours/day that I got from this agency I discovered over the internet and they paid me for it 95 bucks every hour.

                      See—> Money90

          2. Brett, this is more telling about you than I.

            You are the one siding with the open white supremacist anti-American’s contentless anger at my statement. Maybe my invocation of victimhood seeking wasn’t clear – I clarified just below in response to SteveMG

            1. S0.
              It is “about me.”

                1. My last pay test was $9500 operating 12 hours per week on line. my sisters buddy has been averaging 15k for months now and she works approximately 20 hours every week. i can not accept as true with how easy it become as soon as i tried it out.

                  This is what do,…….► Home Profit System

            2. “There are some pretty strong cultural distinctions between whiteface and blackface.”

              Which has absolutely nothing to do with this. Either we have equal rights, or we don’t. Either white people have the right to wear black makeup, even if it offends blacks, or blacks don’t.

              Isn’t that the import of Gorsech’s Monday ruling? That if you wouldn’t fire a guy for having sex with a girl, you can’t fire a girl for having sex with a girl, it would be sex discrimination? How can this reasoning not apply to race discrimination?

              Because you think it’s right to be offended by blackface, but not right to be offended by ‘gay’ sex? That’s not a legal principle, that’s just, “My opinions should be law, and yours should mean nothing!”

              1. As has been pointed out, the parallel is inapt; should be to anyone wearing blackface. My bad.

                Also, funny to hear you talk about a right to employment, Brett. Or the free speech being protected by employment law. Right on, comrade!

                The act of loving a woman and the act of loving a man are the same, except for the sex.
                The act of putting on whiteface and the act of putting on blackface are different acts done by different actors.

                I’m not arguing from offense as respect to legality. Do you think the Civil Rights Act protects people wearing blackface?

                1. Man does X is fine, woman does X is not fine = discrimination.

                  Black does X is fine, white does X is not fine = not discrimination?

                  1. If X is wearing blackface, doesn’t matter if they’re black of white.

                    1. You’re… claiming that they can fire someone, black or white, for wearing dark makeup? Um, no.

                    2. Uh, yes. At will employment is the norm around here.

                      Sounds like you agree that sucks.

                    3. “At will employment is the norm around here.
                      Sounds like you agree that sucks.”

                      No, I’d prefer at will employment. But blackface is just dark makeup. But under title VII there’s no way you can fire people from wearing makeup that matches their skin tone. And under Bostock, you can’t fire people for wearing makeup other people wouldn’t be fired for.

                    4. But under title VII there’s no way you can fire people from wearing makeup that matches their skin tone.

                      Why not? That doesn’t sound like it relies on a particular classification.

        2. I only consider one person who regularly posts at this site to be a POS. Sarcast0 is not that person. I think I could probably reach agreement with Sarcast0 on a few issues.
          The POS is someone I will not name and will never respond to. All that person does is insult people and try to get them to respond in anger. That person is the worst kind of troll.

      2. “There are some pretty strong cultural distinctions between whiteface and blackface

        There used to be some pretty strong cultural distinctions between male and female.

      3. Who is convincing themselves they are “victimized” here? The people complaining about a person wearing a stupid black face costume at a Halloween party several years ago? Or the person who’s life is destroyed over doing it?

        1. Hey, Steve. Thanks for engaging.

          The victimization piece is not from the admittedly very dumb thing in the OP.

          It came from the post I replied to: “It’s not just about winning; it’s about hurting the other side and making them feel bad.”

          This is offered without proof. Just looks like trying to claim victimhood to me.

          1. Okay, here is some proof from the comments section at the Washington Post:

            Talicat:
            The comments on a major right wing news site are hysterical.
            Likethumb_up70

            Bozzy:
            Their tears are sweet!

            1. Oh, come on.

              People celebrating a victory including being smug a-holes at the sadness of the other side is a core human impulse. Not our greatest impulse, but not proof that the left now exists to make conservatives sad.

              I mean, how many do you think celebrated about liberal tears when Trump won?

              Humans being tribal animals says nothing about the core reasons for the movement.

          2. Or this comment:

            Ironically, conservative tears make the best lube!!!

            Try not to be butthurt about it (except, of course, in the good way. No one can discriminate against that anymore!)

            1. You…think these people stand for the liberal movement?

              I mean, making gay submission jokes rather shows he’s out of step with the latest leftist thinking.

    2. “this is discrimination by race and is a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.”

      Good point!
      If “sex” can be whatever sex you think you are, then why can’t “race” be equally described?

      1. Being transracial didn’t go so well for Rachel Dolezal

        1. Was she actually fired or did she just resign from her position (was it with the NAACP?).

          1. Maybe she was forced to resign

        2. Being transracial didn’t go so well for Rachel Dolezal

          But that was then, and this is now.

      2. Indeed, how can you possibly punish a white person for wearing blackface, where you wouldn’t even notice a black person wearing it, without referencing race? By the reasoning of Monday’s decision, this is racist as can be.

        I think the real problem here is refusing to distinguish actual rights violations from merely offending other people’s sensibilities in an age when people are actively encouraged to be easily offended.

    3. Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Kimmel, Sarah Silverman, Justin Trudea – all have worn black face in the past. All continue to remain popular with the Establishment media and draw a paycheck. Some people are just more equal than others.

    4. We’re on the way to a civil war. People just don’t see it yet.

      1. As an amateur vexillologist, I can’t wait to see the new flags!

        1. Sheldon has a fan!

          1. Don’t associate me with that show or character! It is nothing more than cultural nerd porn – a pseudo-identity for bored and lazy children. I’m stuck in my old ways and I like to re-watch Seinfeld episodes.

            1. Sheldon has a fan! . . . but that fan is too embarrassed to admit it. How adorable. Exactly how Sheldon might have reacted to the same situation.

            2. I could never get into SEINFELD; I never found it funny. But, if you enjoy it, great. Your criticism of BBT is fair; but I enjoyed a lot of it.
              My wife and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum so we always look for shows we can enjoy together. BBT was one show we enjoyed together. Another show was THE GOOD PLACE.
              Another show that we enjoyed (at least early on) was FATHER BROWN. That is odd since we are Jewish. Father Brown’s reason for tracking down murderers was to try and save their souls; not about getting them arrested. There were a number of episodes that ended with the killer accepting responsibility for what they did and turning themselves in. Okay, it’s a myth. Still, it was a positive myth. Sadly, in more recent episodes, the killers have become more standard villains and the good padre has stopped trying to save their souls.

      2. Oh, I can see it.

        The DACA decision literally means that law is now irrelevant in America, and people are going to rationally conclude that they shouldn’t bother to obey the law, either.

        1. What was the legal reasoning for supporting DACA? Trump has the right to end DACA but he didn’t show his work in the legal documents?

          1. I think it was for showing the wrong work, not for not showing any work at all.
            If you want to fire me from your workplace, I’d suggest not proudly announcing, “I am firing him because he’s a filthy Jew.” Or, “I am firing her because she refused to give me a blow job.” The court seems to be saying here, “Rabbi HW. Give us another plausible reason why you *really* wanted to fire her.” Yeah, everyone knows it’s because I’m a Jew/refused to have sex with you/etc. . . but the court does not care about this fig leaf. If you can invent some [legally-permitted] reason after-the-fact, I suspect that it’ll be sufficient to survive judicial review.

            1. The work they showed was, “We’ve concluded this policy is, in line with several court decisions, illegal, and accordingly are going to stop breaking the law.”

              In what world isn’t that the right work to show? In what world do you have to justify ceasing to act illegally?

              1. There’s a second half of the coin about this too: how in the world can something that’s established by Executive Order by *one* President suddenly be unable to be cancelled by the Executive Order by *another* President?

                Or does the President in question matter? Had the *first* President decided “whelp, what I did was wrong! I’d better undo it now!” would it have been illegal?

                This decision doesn’t make a lick of sense!

                1. A lot of this type of the political process confuses me as well.
                  With the ACA, a lot of the problems were known from the beginning and Dems (after Brown was elected in place of Sen Kennedy) did their best to make changes. But they were prevented by Republicans, who said, “We will allow absolutely no changes, even if we 100% agree with the change you’re suggesting.”

                  So, the ACA got through the Senate with an overwhelming number of Dem senators. But now, under Trump, with a fairly narrow Rep majority (ie, nowhere near that 60-vote margin), they’ve been able to sabotage the ACA and gut it in many ways. My thought had been, “It took 60 votes to enact it, so it should take 60 votes to dismantle it…even if you’re trying to dismantle it in stages.” Nope, I was wrong. There does not seem to be any legal requirement that what is needed to enact/pass something is equal to what is needed to undo that.

          2. The court is delaying the result; they will probably always find some problem with the Trump administration’s procedures on this issue until he is no longer president. This approach is going to make people who disagree with the opinion less respectful of the law.

      3. Eventually things have to swing back, there will be some correction? At least I keep thinking they will.
        But where is the counterforce to this? Who is standing up to it? Pushing back? When McCarthy abused his power we had the media and other institutions checking him. Within two years McCarthy’s career was over. He was censured by the Senate and he was done.
        I don’t see any pushback here. Our liberal friends are in full retreat. They so hate Trump that their moral compass is skewed. Opposing Trump is their lode star and they don’t care now about anything else.
        I detest Trump too but that can’t be the only goal?

        1. Good point, Steve,
          Other than trying to effect change for workplace safety, protect access to health insurance, environmental protections, addressing police brutality, raising taxes on the filthy rich, improving relationships with friendly foreign countries, protecting a woman’s right to control her own body, prisoner rights, gay rights, disabled rights . . . why, they’ve hardly done anything other than trying to disembowel Trump.

          (The fact that they have not been able to succeed in doing much of the above is, of course, completely understandable, given that there is a Republican in the White House, and Whore McConnell refusing to allow votes in the Senate on pretty much any “Democrat” issue that comes out of the House. Obviously, you do not blame Democrats for that obvious political fact…and that’s why you properly framed the question as “What have Dems been *trying* to do?”, rather than, “What have Dems been able to accomplish under a Rep. Senate and Rep. President?”)

          1. “Daddy, what do taxes pay for?” – Todd Flanders

            “Oh, why everything! Policemen, trees, sunshine, and let’s not forget the folks who just don’t feel like working, God bless ’em.” – Ned Flanders

      4. LOL y’all ain’t gonna do shit except peck at your keyboards. No one is going to “rebel” other than probably a few psycho Trump supporters shooting up some businesses. Biden will win in November and things will return to relative normal, a vaccine will probably be manufactured in large quantities by then for deployment in Jan/Feb/March time frame.

    5. “It’s not just about winning; it’s about hurting the other side and making them feel bad.”

      Not clear what you are talking about, the famous Welch v. McCarthy exchange, the WaPo story, or both? Yes, Welch “personalized” it to in effect give McCarthy the punch in the face he so richly deserved, and it was a masterful one. I doubt “making (McCarthy) feel bad” was much on his mind, especially since making him “feel bad” was as likely as making the sociopathic Trump regretful of any injury he did to anyone.

      The word “precedent” is legally meaningless with respect to the WaPo story, since no court decision involved, and in particular not a reported appellate court decision.

  2. But per the Bostock reasoning, the question isn’t whether a person of color would be fired for wearing white face, but whether a person of color would be fired for wearing black face. Seems like she’d have a pretty strong claim of having been fired on account of race?

    1. Now see, that’s how you tweek a judges nose. Apply their logic to the letter to a case they’d hate to see the results of.

      1. If I recall correctly, there was an event in a public school where a black school guard repeated the word “nigger” after it was used by a black student. The school’s zero tolerance policy resulted in the guard being fired but the public outcry caused the school to backtrack and rehire the guard. Again, some people are more equal than others.

        1. That sounds like the “stop and frisk” trick in the era of “we don’t do marijuana arrests”.

          The police would order them to empty their pockets. Then, if there was pot in the contents, they would arrest them for publicly displaying the pot, which was an arrestable offense.

          As judge Sullivan said… “This is not a trick!”

    2. the question isn’t whether a person of color would be fired for wearing white face, but whether a person of color would be fired for wearing black face

      Similarly, laws against gay marriage aren’t unconstitutional because they treat gay and straight men the same way — they both have the right to marry a woman!

  3. Anti-racism is a scourge; it is a plague; it is the very quintessence of profligacy; and it needs to be forcibly and mercilessly eradicated.

    1. Anti-racism is the very thing it purports to hate the most.

      1. C.S. Lewis once wrote about the “tyranny of the victim.” It’s a tough argument since we all have compassion for true victims. But we now have this sort of “tyranny” in defense of anti-racism. People’s lives can be tossed aside for the goal of fighting racism.
        Even laudable goals – opposing Stalin, Hitler, racism, et cetera – can be corrupted. This is an example of it.

        1. Here is Ibram X. Kendi’s proposal for fixing the US Constitution:

          “To fix the original sin of racism, Americans should pass an anti-racist amendment to the U.S. Constitution that enshrines two guiding anti-racist principals: Racial inequity is evidence of racist policy and the different racial groups are equals. The amendment would make unconstitutional racial inequity over a certain threshold, as well as racist ideas by public officials (with “racist ideas” and “public official” clearly defined). It would establish and permanently fund the Department of Anti-racism (DOA) comprised of formally trained experts on racism and no political appointees. The DOA would be responsible for preclearing all local, state and federal public policies to ensure they won’t yield racial inequity, monitor those policies, investigate private racist policies when racial inequity surfaces, and monitor public officials for expressions of racist ideas. The DOA would be empowered with disciplinary tools to wield over and against policymakers and public officials who do not voluntarily change their racist policy and ideas.”
          I have a lot of problems with Professor Kendi’s proposal.

          1. Why not call it the committee of public safety?
            The comparisons to the French revolution and today are very apt.

      1. There’s a very easy solution for anti-Semitism. Change your name and disassociate with anyone in your family still identifying that way. Worked for me.

        1. Um, sure. By making a conscious and deliberate decision to use an online username that ends in “berg” . . . yeah, right; you’re Totally disassociating yourself with your Jewish identity. I totally buy it.

          1. My user name is my birth name. My current legal name, the one I’ve been using socially and professionally for over 30 years now, is not even close to it.

            1. Exactly. Your online presence screams out, “I am a Jew.” I stand by my observation that this public act is the opposite of you disassociating yourself.

              My suggestion: Change your username to “IRegretMyJewishHeritage” or the like. I’ll believe your claim at that point.

              1. Not just regret it. Am severely ashamed and embarrassed of it. To the point where no one in my Gentile wife’s family knows of it.

                1. I’m confused… is your Jewish family a bunch of anti Semites or to avoid anti-Semitism you changed your name and disassociated with your Jewish family?
                  If a) then … weird… self-hating Jews
                  if b) then the anti-Semites won. they keep their ways, you change yours…
                  what am i missing here?

        2. My parents were Jewish. My dad changed his name in 1934, right before leaving on a round the world trip. He has a very Jewish surname and he anglicized it. Back in those days, you had real NSDAP party members around the world looking for Jews to abuse.

          1. Yup. I changed mine back in the 80s shortly after leaving for college. Very few people know my birth name.

        3. That 1. Doesn’t sound especially easy and 2. Doesn’t seem especially likely to work. (Most anti-semites hate the self-loathing Jews as much as any other kind, in my experience.) At any rate, I’m not sure the making all Jews disappear is as compelling a “solution” to anti-Semitism as you suggest.

          1. If you do it right, no one even knows.

            1. “Futurama” reference???

            2. Futurama ref….
              i see what you did there 😉

  4. Isn’t this firing based on negative stereotyoes about racial behavior, the idea that certain behavior doesn’t conform to approved racial roles?

    If so, then wouldn’t that make the firing because of race?

    1. I suppose it won’t be long before we see whether Gorsuch’s reasoning in Monday’s case was really how he thinks, or just pretext to arrive at the result. Because it certainly would.

  5. I oppose this firing. I would support making this type of firing illegal.

    That said, people who love employment at will and favor keeping government out of the hiring process really can’t complain that this particular employer used at-will in a way they disagree with. If you support hiring and firing at will, you really can’t complain about this result.

    1. I concur with you to the extent that the real reason this woman was fired was because the employer genuflected to the mob and that her costume had no relation to her job performance.

      Yes, the firing of this woman is compatible with employment at-will as would be the discharge of a negro who expressed support for the anti-life, terrorist organization, Black Lives Matter.

        1. If Libertymike wants to tell the world he’s a racist, what’s the problem?

        2. I doubt if you’ll have much luck convincing that weirdo of anything. Racism is a core part of his identity.

    2. That’s ridiculous. Of course we can support the idea that government should have little to no role in firing decisions while still thinking that a business owner was wrong about a particular decision.

      I, too, oppose this firing. But making it illegal would be a far greater evil over time.

      1. Libertymike, and Rossami, at one time people were fired for being pro civil rights and pro gay. Today, people get fired for being racist (real or perceived) or anti-gay (real or perceived). In both instances, the consistent theme was that having unpopular social views could be very costly economically, and if you have unpopular social views, you better keep them to yourself.

        What has changed is what is an unpopular social view. And what you guys don’t seem to realize is that it harms society itself to punish people economically for having unpopular social views. Because no matter what your social views are, if you wait long enough, the pendulum will swing and they’ll be unpopular, and it will be your neck on the chopping block.

        So Rossami, I flatly disagree that making such firings illegal is a far greater evil over time. The far greater evil is the damage done to full, unfettered discourse about social issues by letting people know they risk getting fired for having an unpopular opinion. The fact that the First Amendment means you’re not going to be jailed for having an unpopular opinion is cold comfort to people who can’t feed their families because they have unpopular opinions.

        1. That goes too far. Nothing in the First Amendment or the broader tradition of Free Speech was ever intended to completely insulate a person from the consequences of their actions or speech.* Robust debate is about trying to change people’s minds. Otherwise, it’s just yelling at each other. Changing minds necessarily includes accepting responsibility for the consequences of your speech and actions. The First Amendment merely says that government should not put a thumb on the scales.

          To follow your reasoning to it’s logical conclusion, you would have to make boycotts illegal because they deprive a person (lots of people, actually) of their ability to make a living because of their unpopular speech. Yet boycotts are one of the most effective drivers of social change. And they are speech in their own right.

          Beyond that, consider the consequences of making boycotts illegal. Do you really want to government telling you that you must shop at Masterpiece Cake because you disagree with their speech? How would they enforce that? Go through everyone’s financial records to make sure that their cake-buying is non-discriminatory? That would be a ridiculous expansion of government power.

          * Tenure is, arguably, an exception to the general rule that free speech still has consequences. I do not, however, think that tenure is a good model for the rest of society. I don’t even think it’s a good idea in academics. It has too many perverse consequences of its own.

          1. I haven’t said people should be completely isolated from the consequences of their speech. And I haven’t said a thing about boycotts.

            What I will say is this: In between the extreme of people with unpopular views having no protection at all, and employers having no discretion to hire or fire at all, there lies a middle ground. It’s not all or nothing. Your insistence that it be all or nothing is a false alternative.

            1. You misstate. We are already in the middle ground between ‘no consequences’ and ‘you can be jailed or even killed for your speech’. Remember that the latter rule was the norm across most of history (and still is across most of the world). You want to move the middle ground from ‘no adverse legal consequences’ to ‘no adverse legal or economic consequences’.

              I am merely pointing out that you can’t get to ‘no adverse economic consequences’ without a whole lot more government intrusion and loss of freedom than any possible gains.

              1. I didn’t say “no” adverse consequences.

                I see government and corporations as each being inherently untrustworthy, and I see a need to play one against the other to keep each of their worst impulses in check. We can quibble about where exactly to draw that line, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever for what I will call the little people to unilaterally disarm by refusing to use the one institution that in theory acts in their interests. If not for government regulation, the corporations would screw us far worse than they already do.

                From your side of the aisle, I’m hearing a lot about theoretical harm, like loss of liberty. I’m not hearing so much about any practical bad results that would come from telling employers they can’t fire people because of their social views. It would probably do a lot to reduce the volume of the internet mobs, because if they know an employer can’t legally fire someone for having views they disagree with, a lot of their incentive to harass employers goes away.

                But which side suffers more harm is a question of fact, which is ultimately irrelevant to the libertarian argument some are making that the government simply has no role (or a very limited role) in the free market, on principle, no matter how the harms play out. And that’s what I reject. If you think you have a good argument on the facts for why such a law would leave us worse off, let’s hear it.

                1. Ah, I think I see the problem. You are missing the point that your position is logically inconsistent and inherently discriminatory. You are saying that employees must be protected by government from the economic consequences of their speech but that sole proprietors deserve no such protection. You are also saying that the employees are only protected when people you disfavor (employers) object to their speech.

                  That’s the only way I see to reconcile your apparent position that firings should be illegal but boycotts are still okay.

                  1. When did I say that sole proprietors don’t deserve protection? Or that boycotts are OK? If you want to discuss stuff I’ve actually said, that’s fine, but please don’t make stuff up. (And no, I did not just say that SPs DO deserve protection or that boycotts ARE NOT OK; at this point in the discussion I haven’t taken a position on them. I’m just saying don’t put words in my mouth. We’ll get to them if we get to them.)

                    Better yet, we can discuss the actual point I did make about the need for the little people to not unilaterally disarm, and that practical harms outrank theoretical ones.

                    1. How soon we forget what a sea change it was for Disney to give gay partner rights to benefits of employees. This was long before gay marriage was more than a pipe dream.

                      Texas amd other states tried to make it illegal for private corporations to do this voluntarily at that point.

                      Millenia of social ostracism oppression, often accompanied by legal repression, has lost control and now the shoe is on the other foot. Some of you loved that world, enjoy its descendant.

                      My gripe is for all those millenia, all people wanted was to be left alone and not oppressed. I can hardly blame them for a neck throttling of society at the moment. My only hope is for it to ease back down to mutual tolerance, the desired goal for those millenia.

                      History suggests not, though. 🙁

        2. I disagree. The difference now is that instead of physical mob having to congregate outside your business, a digital mob can form on the Internet and social media sites by people who would never normally patronize your business. This turns Internet radicals into super stars and prevents local dialogue from resolving minor conflicts. Without the cacophony of rage from the Internet, most businesses would likely take their time to weigh both sides of the argument before making a decision.

          An example – in San Francisco, a woman complained about a neighbor painting “Black Lives Matter” on the front of his house. After the Internet lynch mob caught wind of this, the woman AND her husband were fired from their jobs. No reasonable person would consider the husband guilty of the supposed crimes of the wife but with an Internet lynch mob bearing down on both companies, the decision to cut them both loose was an easy one.

          1. But some of our liberal posters (see above) say this is people acting victimized.
            See the people demanding that these others be fired, lives be ruined are not acting as victims. No, the people whose lives are turned upside down over these trivial transgressions are the ones acting victimized.
            Strange times we live in, very strange.

            1. If you’re referring to me, I don’t think I’m getting across what I’m saying.

              All this outrage hysteria about going after people’s jobs for molehills is bad and should end.

              It is not proof whites as a class are being oppressed.

              The ones acting victimized are not the victims – and they are victims – that the OP and the post you’re replying to lay out. It’s the people, some of them posters in this thread, claiming that whites are the new victimized race and anti-racists are racist against whites.

              1. STOP looking as “whites as a class” — and everybody else while you are at it — that is how we got into this trouble in the first place. Take people (and their cases) individually.

                1. Some things affects people *because of* some group or other that they are in. That needs to be addressed on a group basis, or it will never improve.

                  I take your point about whites, who are not really a class. Except that I’m *pushing back* at people complaining on behalf of whites as a class.

                  1. Either all are or none are — cut the crap.

                    Even an illegal alien has human rights that are universal and the US government is bound to recognize.

                    Your way un unAmerican, destructive and will lead to nothing buut disunion.

                    1. History shows if policymakers ignore things that effect a group (discrimination, medical stuff, disparate impacts) it does not somehow erase those things. Not even discrimination.

                      Doesn’t even need to be race. What about class? Do you think in forma pauperis shouldn’t be a thing because it recognizes issues relating to poor people?

                    2. Forma pauperis STILL treats individuals as individuals (anybody of any race is taken care of.)

                    3. It does not treat people of any socioeconomic class the same, though.

                      Sounds like more disunion to me!

                    4. The same and equal do not mean the same things

        3. Some people are just unpopular. It is important for the law to protect unpopular people. We don’t want them to get punished (criminally or civilly) just because their personalities put some people on edge. People with Asperger’s Syndrome for example. You should only be punished for doing bad things; not for being unpopular.

      2. But making it illegal would be a far greater evil over time.

        No. There needs to be a balance of terror — the government needs to put its thumb equally on both sides of the scale.
        I think you will find the employer fired her out of fear that there’d be discrimination complaints if it didn’t. Well, that’s an evil needing to be balanced by an equal evil.

      3. I have no problem with the firing given the at-will employment issue — assuming, of course, that this person isn’t a contracted exception to at-will employment.

        I *do* have a problem with making a public example in a *national* newspaper about something that was, for all intents and purposes, *private*. There’s no reason why this story was newsworthy. There’s no reason why the person had to be named in the story.

        I hope Washington Post gets sued over this. I hope that they are taken to the cleaners.

    3. Not for so long as there are “protected classes.” It should be all or nothing.

    4. After Bostock, we should really just go all out and say employees can only be fired for work-related reasons. This would also put a dent in the cancellation culture. Employers response to the mob would be to shrug and say our hands are tied by the law.

      1. I’m coming to this conclusion too. If every gender, race, and religion is part of a protected class, the libertarian dream of free association is dead. Why continue to allow leftist mobs the ability to threaten one’s employment because they speak their mind in public?

      2. I’m in.

        Worker’s rights to own the libs!

        1. Handouts for families with children worked for PiS in Poland.

    5. That said, people who love employment at will and favor keeping government out of the hiring process really can’t complain that this particular employer used at-will in a way they disagree with. If you support hiring and firing at will, you really can’t complain about this result.

      No; that’s a common error non-libertarians make.

      That I think X has the right to do Y does not mean that I “really can’t complain about” X doing Y. To think so is a category error.

      1. Ok, so it’s all right to complain so long as the government can’t do anything to fix anything. Got it.

    6. That said, people who love employment at will and favor keeping government out of the hiring process really can’t complain that this particular employer used at-will in a way they disagree with. If you support hiring and firing at will, you really can’t complain about this result.

      That makes about as much sense as saying that if you support freedom of the press, you can’t criticize the Washington Post for publishing the article in the first place, or that if you believe in freedom of speech, you can’t point out that your comment is incredibly stupid.

      Believing that people should have the right to do something doesn’t mean your obligated to agree that every possible way of exercising that right is a good thing, and criticizing something doesn’t mean your required to think the government should ban it.

      1. “…criticizing something doesn’t mean [you’re] required to think the government should ban it.”

        Leftists don’t grasp the distinction between “wrong” and “illegal.”
        For a leftist, if X is wrong, X should be banned. No distinctions. Murder, assault, jaywalking, not recycling, not having health insurance, not hiring blacks/women/gays, offensive comments, picking one’s nose in public, growing too much wheat, not eating broccoli — any activity (or lack of activity) can warrant state interference. (And there is no limit on the extent to which the state may interfere with the refractory individual.)
        Of course, the obverse is that if X is legal, it can’t be wrong. Once the democratically-elected people’s representatives declare the killing of Jews (or the “expropriation” of “capitalists”) to be conducive to the common good, and the duly-appointed appointed judges uphold the legality/constitutionality of such measure — that’s the end of the story!

        1. Jews will only have civil rights so long as a majority of the US Supreme Court rules that they have such rights. If a future Supreme Court rules that Jews are not human and, as such, do not have civil rights (regardless of what statutes or constitutional amendments are enacted), then Jews lose those protections.
          I am carrying the argument to an absurd extreme to make a point: the law now consists of only those rules that a majority of the Supreme Court wants to enforce.

          1. So you think Roberts and Gorsuch are both sekret liberals and into ruling in bad faith?

            Because of how hard you disagree with their opinions?

            1. The difference between secret liberals and public squishes under pressure is kind of vague. But, yeah, we think they’re ruling in bad faith at this point.

              Look, we have multiple circuit splits concerning a fundamental enumerated right, and the Court isn’t taking the cases. From no legal perspective is that a good faith act, so that the Court is acting in bad faith is established.

              The only question is whether any particular ruling is bad faith.

    7. If you support hiring and firing at will, you really can’t complain about this result.

      The fact that I wouldn’t make it illegal (i.e., that I support employment-at-will) doesn’t mean I can’t complain about it. I support the First Amendment too, but I still have the right to complain about people who say stupid and hateful things.

  6. All people suck.

    1. I know how you feel. I hope we both feel better soon.

  7. It does seem she has a claim under Bostock. If firing people for having a transexual appearance is sex discrimination, why isn’t firing people for having a transracial appearance race discrimination? This sort of “it horribly offends me” type thinking seems exactly what Bostock is for.

    And Bostock makes clear that the purpose of the Civil Rights Act is to prohibit the act of discrimination, not to prohibit particular individuals or groups.

  8. I appreciate that you have had your own recent issues. But this is … not a great look for you, Prof. Volokh. It is, in fact, the very definition of tone-deafness.

    Now, at the same time that many Americans are struggling with the issues of race, both structural and individual, that have plagued our great nation since its founding; when we see that there is a vast outpouring of thought, word, and deed that not only forces the issues of the past to light, but the issues of the present; and when many finally grapple with the connected issues of race, poverty, and state-sanctioned violence ….

    You create a paean for the supposed real victims here; the white people of America, who must suffer the indignity of, perhaps, dealing with the racial past. You do this, knowing full well that the excess of racism, evident not just in the news, but in the comments in your on forum, cannot be avoided.

    As to the merits, we both can understand that people get fired every day by private employers for all sorts of reasons; good, bad, and none at all. Especially now. For you to equate this and invoke the McCarthyite hearing (which, ironically, many of the people that are ideologically associated with you are trying to rehabilitate – or as the youth today put it, “retcon” as being justified) is not just, as I wrote, tone deaf, but will nothing more than justify the self-serving please of victimization of those who least need it.

    1. A victim is a victim. The cancel culture is a real thing and there is nothing wrong with discussing it. It doesn’t dilute the discussions of racism, structural or otherwise, that are ongoing. Nothing is served by claiming that white people’s problems are inconsequential and discussing them will somehow drown out the other.

      1. The apocalypse must be nigh, because I think I agree with donojack. I support BLM’s mission, and mostly its tactics. How does that conflict with my also being bothered by what happened to this woman, assuming as I do that her only wrongdoing was an ill-considered but malice-free choice of an offensive costume?

        That doesn’t mean I equate what happened to her with the gravity of the wrongs BLM combats. Does writing about the former but not the latter mean Eugene equates them? I don’t know. I have little confidence in my ability to discern someone’s beliefs based solely on his decision not to write about them.

        1. “malice-free”

          She was filed with malice. Kelly who had been on FoxNews was from the other tribe so a proper subject for mocking.

          Her being burned is just poetic justice.

          1. Bob, given your love for the tribal hammer, you’ll forgive me for not holding in the highest regard your ability to recognize a non-nail.

        2. Because, Leo, I read the article. Parts of it are heartbreaking in terms of the misunderstandings that occurred. But do you know what?

          At the end of the day, people are fired all the time for all sorts of reasons- good, bad, and none at all. I don’t see any real legal analysis here (I don’t think that this state will have a public policy exception for “wearing black face in an ironic, if ill-conceived, manner”).

          You’ve been here as long as I have; given the gravamen both of what has happened around this country, and what has happened recently to Prof. Volokh, I think that this subject is telling. Sometimes, negative space speaks volumes.

          Much in the same way that we saw articles castigating people complaining about the so-called p*** server that Kozinski used, but crickets after you-know-what.

          As a long-time admirer of his work on the First Amendment who has cited to his work in briefs, I am saddened that he is attempting to equate long-overdue efforts at dealing with racism in America with McCarthyism.

          The comments are predictable; he has managed to elicit both the racism and amazingly the McCarthy defenders.

          That’s … pretty impressive. But hey- the company you keep, and all that.

          1. I get your selective outrage argument, but that doesn’t mean the firing shouldn’t be condemned.

            Though I don’t disagree that invoking McCarthyism is generalizing to an extent that I don’t think is supported by these anecdotes.

            1. It’s more than selective outrage, Sarcastro. About a year ago, I remember watching a video about Tucker Carlson (on youtube, maybe). Anyway, it had the usual soundbites where he was cackling about how elite was, etc. But what I remember was the juxtaposition of what he covered on his show (BS stories designed to rile up the base and make them feel angry at millennials and the “elite” and POCs) as opposed to what was actually happening in politics (giants tax cuts for the wealthy and elite like him).

              It’s the same here. Look, I can certainly sympathize with someone who thinks they have been treated unfairly. But for Prof. Volokh to write this long, (self?) pitying, completely tone deaf article essentially saying that the real victims, just like in the McCarthy era, are white people … because god forbid there is a conversation about race now … is beyond pathetic.

              Yeah, I get it. A person made a bad choice (we can agree on that, right? wearing black face to a party TWO YEARS AGO is not a good choice … no matter how ironic or edgy or dumb the person was for doing it) and they got fired. I am sympathetic, because I don’t think the person meant to do harm. But do you know what?

              There are black people that have not received this type of treatment from Prof. Volokh. I watched that video. I’ve seen, over and over again, black people get murdered, and not only is there an absolute EFFING SILENCE from the powers that be on this blog, but I see the toxic shinola in the comments. “Oh, I bet he had a rap sheet. He must have been on drugs. You need to listen to the police.”

              Over and over again. So if people have the smallest possible violin after decades and decades of bull, maybe there is reason for it. If Prof. Volokh feels it necessary to provide this type of commentary for the many people that pop up in the comments, then that is a choice.

              As it is, I will tend to believe that this is simple an error, born out of the frustration of the whole “n word” controversy that he recently went through, and not symptomatic of a darker turn.

              1. So, people can only be upset about what you are upset about. Their feelings and agency are subservient to your need for moral outrage

              2. You are full of it. The Volokh Conspiracy has had their share of stories about concern of people being murdered. Indeed, VC has been one of the factors as to why I’m opposed to SWAT teams.

              3. You also seem to be completely ignoring the role of the Washington Post in this incident.

                The crux of the story isn’t “white woman gets fired for doing something on the spectrum between ironic and ill-conceived.”

                It’s “Washington Post outs a random, private citizen, for doing something (two years ago) that some find offensive.”

                That’s a story. That’s scary.

            2. My fear is that the Washington Post did not really believe that what this person did justified being fired; my fear is that the Post fired the woman in order to avoid being in the middle of a controversy.

              1. She didn’t work for the Post. Another company fired her.

                1. I stand corrected.

          2. I have no idea whether EV’s aggrievement over his recent notoriety informed his decision to write this post. One of my pet peeves is the ubiquity of internet mind readers, so I try extra hard to avoid the practice myself. I do concede that broad inferences can be drawn from EV’s silence during the Kozinski episode, but nothing I’d fault him for. Up to a point well short of Trump Jr., I grant everyone dispensation to stand by friends and loved ones.

            While I share EV’s objection to cancel culture, and I don’t read what he said as equating it with McCarthyism, he does imply a closer similarity than I think justified. That said, as rhetorical excess on the Internet goes, it’s pretty mild.

            And the comments? Well lol. Vile though it is, VC’s comment section is the Algonquin roundtable of Reason comment threads. What a cesspool.

            1. I am not sure that all of this is unrelated, Leo.

              I mean … cancel culture? Do you think, perhaps, that a person who clerked for Judge Kozinski (and knew him well, had Kozinski officiate at his wedding, friends, etc.) AND blogged in defense of the Judge’s p***/gag server, and (likely, given the friendship) received the “gag” emails that were the subject of controversy … would be concerned that a judge could be “cancelled” over something so small (ahem) as sexually harassing other (female) clerks?

              I mean, we wouldn’t want his future prospects, such as arguing before the Ninth in important cases, to be curtailed because he was cancelled, right? Let’s ignore the long-lasting implications his decades of conduct had on some of his clerks and instead worry about him being canceled.

              I’m only noting that this severe concern with “cancel culture” seems to exist to protect those with power in order to keep it, and to ensure that we get truly worked up about “mistaked” and what is “fair” for people that have power, so that we might continue to ignore the plight of those without it.

              Shorter version: by riling up people about so-called “cancel culture,” what you are doing is reifying that which already exists. You are attempting the shift the focus of the conversation away from the actual victims, and try to concentrate the conversation on people that are whining about how long they have to wait for their “mistakes.”

              Sorry …. not terribly worried about it.

              1. I think it’s time to dox loki13, comb through his entire internet existence, and then harass loki13’s employers until loki13 is fired from his job, and made unemployable for the next few years.

                This is, after all, what’s been happening, again and again, to people who are otherwise nobodies.

                Then again, maybe the sauce that isn’t good for the gander, isn’t good for the geese, either….

        3. You are probably troubled because you see the potential harm that these decisions can cause.

    2. You would never be the first one to stop clapping, hoping against hope, red faced from strain, you would clap on and on until someone braver than you did it first.

    3. Libertarians are trying to justify Red Scare hearings?

      (Tone deaf? For saying, to paraphrase, “mocking Megyn Kelly with stupid makeup because she said blackface was okay for a character representation” is not something to get fired for?

      I guess, if “tone deaf” means “something knee-jerk Progressives will dislike”.

      This has nothing at all to do with “race, poverty, and state-sanctioned violence”, remember?

      Nor is there any claim that the “REAL victims” are “white America”; “real victims” suggests that other victims are fake, or that this “victim” is primary.

      But that’s only in your imagination, not Prof. Volokh’s text.

      I award you no points.)

      1. Historical note: tailgunner Joe did in fact find communists in the government, doing what communists do.

        1. National Lawyers Guild was also in fact a Stalinist front organization.

        2. Historical note: McCarthy was also DRUNK — he was considered an alcoholic by the standards of the 1950’s — and *everyone* back then would be considered one today. It literally killed him a couple years later.

          I’m not saying being drunk was an excuse, but the KGB files we got access to when the Soviet Union collapsed gave clear evidence that the people he was going after weren’t blushing virgins, either.

        3. Not only that, but the person that McCarthy claimed to be a communist in government — the one for which he was scolded over, being asked “Have you no shame?” for revealing his name — really was a communist in government

          1. The “Have you no shame?” scolding was not about revealing a Communist in government. It was (as Prof. Volokh’s original post made clear) about his revealing that Fred Fisher, then a Hale & Dorr associate, had once been a member of the National Lawyers’ Guild, which was arguably a Communist front.

            (Not only did Fisher not lose his job, but he went on to make partner at Hale & Dorr and be elected as president of the Massachusetts Bar Association. And the National Lawyers’ Guild is a well-respected “progressive” legal organization. If I were a 3L looking for employment at a BigLaw firm today, I’d be a lot more reluctant to put the Federalist Society on my resume than I would the NLG. But I’m sure that’s only appropriate. After all, the NLG (and, when you get down to it, even the CPUSA) were genuinely trying to build a better world, must like Antifa today, while the Federalist Society is a bunch of white straight cishet male Koch-suckers and their hangers-on, seeking to bolster racism and fascism.)

            1. I forgot to mention that the Federalist Society is a bunch of clingers soon to be replaced by their betters and who need to open wider. (h/t to the Rev)

    4. “Tone-deaf” is the accusation people use when they know they can’t argue the substance of an issue. Something not being “a good look” is what someone obsessed with appearance over reality complains about.

      He finishes off his river of word vomit with a claim of guilt by association, not recognizing the irony of making such a claim about an article referencing McCarthyism.

      Loki13 is second worst commenter on here, falling short of the toxicity of the Reverend, and just edging out the increasingly demented Sarcastro.

    5. But this is … not a great look for you, Prof. Volokh. It is, in fact, the very definition of tone-deafness.

      “All sheep and no shepherd.
      Everyone is the same, everyone wants to be the same.
      Anyone who is different goes voluntarily to the Madhouse.”

      — Friedrich Nietzsche

    6. Sure people get fired everyday. But the Supreme Court just held that people can’t be fired because others find their transgender appearance offensive, such a firing is discrimination based on sex.

      Here, someone has been fired specifically because someone found found their transracial appearance offensive. Why isn’t this racial discrimination under Bostock? And why should overt racial discrimination get a “people get fired for all sorts of reasons, don’t worry about it response?” Wouldn’t concern about racial justice call for even greater concern about and sensitivity to overt racial discrimination, not outright obliviousness to it?

      Perhaps you think Bostock doesn’t apply and her firing wasn’t racial discrimination. But you haven’t even attempted to make an argument to distinguish this case from Bostock. Is the reason you’re telling us not to worry about it because you know you don’t have such an argument? If not, what is it?

      1. It isn’t racial discrimination under Bostock for the reason Nonrandom.Set explained above. The issue is whether a white employee and a black employee would be fired for doing the same thing. So the relevant question is whether a black employee also gets fired for putting on blackface makeup.

        1. It’s unlikely that a black person would be fired for wearing blackface makeup. So do you think she has a claim under Bostock?

        2. Was it even “blackface” makeup?

          Or was it makeup specifically designed to complement black skin and to conceal the stuff that women want to conceal? And if that is the case, then it clearly is racial discrimination as who says who can buy what products?

        3. I’m pretty sure people wear makeup that complements their skin tone all the time. Under Bostock, you can’t fire someone for wearing makup that’s a different color than their skin tone.

        4. So you’re suggesting there is a factual question here: Is this makeup that a black woman would wear?

          1. Assuming this is the right question, and the woman involved wore makeup that could be wearable by a black woman, would you agree that the woman has a case under Bostock?

          2. Also assuming this is the right question, if a transgender woman wears something or puts on something that’s different from what a cis woman would wear or put on, would it be your position that Bostock wouldn’t apply, the trans person isn’t actually behaving like a cis person in that specific respect, and hence there is no discrimination if the trans woman is fired for it?

          As a specific example, if cis women don’t wear makeup designed to make a biologically masculine face look more feminine, but a trans woman does, would you agree that a trans woman who does this isn’t behaving like a cis woman, is in fact behaving exactly like a trans African-American who puts on makeup designed for white people to look blacker, and if this occurs cis women are just as fully entitled to be horribly offended by it and fire her over it without implicating the Civil Rights Act?

          1. “So you’re suggesting there is a factual question here: Is this makeup that a black woman would wear?”

            I’ve seen her picture, and I’ve seen actual “blackface”, and she was wearing makeup for black people, not “blackface”. There’s not really much question about it.

        5. ” So the relevant question is whether a black employee also gets fired for putting on blackface makeup.”

          Blackface makeup is makeup worn by a white person to appear black. If it’s worn by a black person, it’s not blackface makeup.

          1. That would be true, except that historically, blacks did apply blackface for the same kinds of routines that make blackface the problem it is today.

  9. First, I hope no one shows the ostensible object of compassion by showing her that some refer to her as that “ordinary woman.”

    Second, does the “broad social movement” that troubles the author include players who kneel, those who would ‘cancel’ the kneelers, Colin Kaepernick, and Donald Trump? Does it include Wheaton College and Larycia Hawkins? Asheen Phansey? Gillette? Etc.?

    Third, what has become of the conservative principle of freedom of association, which strives to accommodate the employer who wishes to fire an employee for being gay, black, female, foreign-looking, foreign-sounding, or inclined to appear in blackface?

    Fourth, this criticism of “cancel culture” would be more effective had it been advanced by an author whose Board of Censors cancels commenters for the offense of making fun of conservatives.

    Other than that, though, great post!

    1. No one has fired Kaepernick. He still draws a salary from the NFL but no team will hire him because they would be paying to join a controversy. Go back to preaching heresy at Bob Jones University!

      1. No, no one will hire him because he isn’t that good a football player. We’re talking about the NFL, folks, the people who were happy to hire dog-fighter Michael Vick (once he got out of the Big House). (And don’t tell me that people in this county aren’t as solicitous for the welfare of cute dogs than they are of people like George Floyd.) Why? Because he does amazing things on the football field. If Kaepernick were as good as Vick, he’d have no trouble getting a job.

    2. The question isn’t so much about firing the person as it is making a target of the person in the first place.

      I’m beginning to think that it’s about time to dox people here, and go after their livelihoods. After we do loki13, do you volunteer to be the next person?

      Of course not! If you volunteered, it wouldn’t be a proper doxxing, now would it?

  10. This is a strange blog entry. It’s not about law, it’s not about libertarianism, it’s just “I think people are too sensitive about race.”

    Uh, OK, duly noted.

    1. Just another day at the Volokh Conspiracy.

      At least this post did not use an egregious racial slur.

      1. Of course not. Only Democrats could do that and get away with it. (Just as it is with blackface, by the way, or did the Governor of Virginia finally resign over that little issue?)

  11. A question for the attorneys – is this legal in every state? I assume it would be legal to fire someone for this reason in an “at will” state, but how about the others? The article doesn’t say where this occurred or where the person worked, but we can assume it was either in or around the Wash DC area, either in DC itself, Maryland, or Virginia.

    1. According to the but if for logic applied to extend sex discrimination to covers LGBT, this is illegal in every state under racial discrimination. She would not have been fired if she had been a black person wearing this costume and this makeup, so it is racial discrimination and illegal to fire her in all 50 states.

    2. Per some of the comments above, it’s not clear that this firing was legal in any state. “At will” employment states still forbid firings on the basis of racial discrimination. (Whether you consider the legal arguments above to be especially strong is a different question.)

      But even in an other-than-at-will state, you can fire employees for cause. And depending on the wording of your corporate policies, this could plausibly count as cause. Or maybe not. Based on the summary above, not only don’t we know the relevant state, we don’t even know the employer (and therefore don’t know the details of their policy).

      1. Most states And D.C. have laws that protect employees from being fired for participating in “any legal activity” when they are not on the job. Last time I checked, wearing blackface is not illegal and this party was not during working hours or at her place of employment.

        1. DC may have such a law (though I can not quickly find it) but it is manifestly untrue that “most states” have such a law that applies to private companies.* Just look at the long history of firing executives, spokespersons and others for their speech, marital infidelity, etc.

          * A number of jurisdictions have laws that prevent government employers for firing their staff on that basis but we don’t yet know that applies to this situation. Unless you have another source that reveals the employer?

          1. I don’t know the technicalities of the laws or which states have them, but many were passed to prevent employers from firing people specifically who engaged in activities they disapproved of. Now of course, an employer could say it was for poor performance, but still I think this woman would have cause to sue. Not so the case of that woman in NYC who told police she was being threatened by that birdwatcher. That is filing a false police report which is illegal

        2. NoVaNick: Not most states — a few states do ban firing for legal off-the-job activities, and a substantial minority forbids firing for speech or political activity, with different states protecting a different range of activity. I laid out the ones as of 2012 in this article; I believe Utah has enacted a recent statute along those lines as well (together with its statutory ban on sexual orientation discrimination in employment). D.C., I believe, only forbids discrimination based on political party affiliation.

          1. D.C., I believe, only forbids discrimination based on political party affiliation.

            Which means that you can’t be fired in D.C. for being a Republican, as long as you’re the right kind of Republican. But if you’re one of those nasty ones who support Donald Trump and questions BLM, then you can and should be fired.

            (I admit it’s sometimes hard to identify a “good” Republican. Mitt Romney is OK now, as was John McCain shortly before he died, because they denounce the Orange Man. But when they were running for president, they were nasty racist crypto-fascists.)

      2. I leave it to the courts to find a way of interpreting “at will” employment out of existence.

    3. Please remember that “at will” employment still must comply with all the various anti-discrimination laws.
      You can’t just say “I fire you, I fire you, I fire you” and be done with it.

    4. I assume it would be legal to fire someone for this reason in an “at will” state, but how about the others?

      What others? Every state, with a partial exception for Montana, is an at will state.

    5. A question for the attorneys – is this legal in every state? I assume it would be legal to fire someone for this reason in an “at will” state, but how about the others?

      I don’t think there are any states other than “at will” states. Sadly, this woman’s termination would have been legal anywhere in the US.

      I get the desire not to involve the government in every termination. But the ability to earn a living is so fundamental to survival in this country that it deserves more protection from retaliation for off-duty personal conduct than it currently receives.

      1. Maybe Congress should pass a law mandating that every person fired based on an anti-discrimination law (federal or state) may appeal their termination to the US Supreme Court and that the court must hear the case. If the court wants to make every termination grounds for a law suit, it should be willing to hear all the cases.

  12. The time is going to come when all those people who committed crimes such a looting and destruction of public property will be identified. I imagine employers will be under a lot of pressure to also fire them. I don’t expect the such moves are going to be met with the applause they are getting now. Probably will hear liberals complain about “freedom of speech” then. But their silence now is going to be noted.

    1. Who cares if their silence is noted? We have the truth and natural law on our side. They have the academy, the judiciary, large corporations, the media, and every other institution that shapes public portrayal of the truth.

      1. ” They have the academy, the judiciary, large corporations, the media, and every other institution that shapes public portrayal of the truth.”

        That was true in the 1960’s as well — until suddenly none of these were respected anymore. The academy is going to implode, I think as soon as this fall — and the rest will follow.

        1. I hope so. The economy is on its way to collapse. I just hope it takes the form of a food and energy shortage.

        2. I doubt academics will implode when China is still willing to pay top dollar (or yuan) to educate its citizens in the STEM fields. My understanding is that STEM provides the majority of money to most public universities while the humanities departments kvetch about non-sense.

    2. Ain’t gonna happen.

      Other than Federal charges, there aren’t going to be any because the Leftist Dems aren’t going to prosecute, and without that the “it wasn’t me” (and inevitable lawsuit) if you tried to fire one of them. Not to mention that *you’d* become subject to looting & destruction, and the cops ain’t gonna help you.

      No, you’ll see such people promoted as a form of protection money payment.

      Here’s the Boston DA on looting:
      https://commonwealthmagazine.org/criminal-justice/rollins-im-heartbroken-furious-and-completely-exhausted/

    3. Destruction or property is not violence. But silence is violence. Maybe we will become so enlightened that rape and murder will no longer be considered violence. But silence is violence.

  13. Roberts has gone full liberal. Read the DACA decision. He’s not even a “moderate” at this point.

    1. I hope he gets COVID.

      1. I hope he gets impeached.

        1. That’s not enough.

          1. You’re right.

            We have to do the research on his children that the NYT did — and publish whatever it was they found out. That will end the left being able to use it to extort him.

            It’ll probably destroy a loving family in the process, but — whatever.

            1. I’m with you on that. I mean, at this rate, it doesn’t matter. By 2028, both Florida and Texas will have flipped permanently blue, cementing permanent Democrat Party control forever. At that point, there is no turning back. Period. Trump was the last stand for conservatives and the white working class. The left’s tentacles in every institution has managed to turn back that last stand.

              We’re toast.

              1. Oh for God’s sake. If you two want to fellate each other; just meet in person and get a room. Don’t worry…this side of the aisle won’t judge you.

            2. What is your interest in Roberts’ children? Are you really that creepy?

        2. I hope he ends up as part of a permanent liberal minority on the court. Let him write all the liberal opinions he wants…but let them all be dicta.

          1. Ain’t gonna happen. Trump won’t be reelected, and once the Dems take power, they’ll ensure they never lose it again.

            1. By hook or by crook they will never lose a presidential election again.

  14. These are very cruel times. It seems each side feeds the other in a sort of frenzy. Yes, the left is worse but both sides are engaged in it.
    It’s this moral cruelty, a desire to exile people from the world, that, at bottom is the great threat to the liberal tradition. It’s not just free speech or due process; it’s the “good faith” that people need to have in order to survive. People make mistakes, do dumb things; but we don’t throw away their entire lives over it. We look at them as “people in full.”
    There’s a saying that there’s a thin crust of civilization that lays over a sort of barbarism. That crust is disappearing fast.

    1. The good thing is we’re heading toward an economic collapse. That’ll get the ball rolling on the civil war and cleansing we so desperately need.

      1. Are you sure you didn’t used to be RestoreWesternHegemony?

        1. Leo, he used ‘rampant members’ in a previous thread…

            1. That’s a WesternHegemony callsign! Add in his identical hatreds and civil war/collapse wishing and I’m 100% sure it’s the same sad dude.

              1. Thanks. So I’m not losing my mind. Well….

  15. So another Girondist goes to the guillotine.

    Good.

    1. The fact that leftists are generally being “cancelled” is the funny part. I’m smart enough to keep my mouth shut in public about politics and I don’t mind burning some incense for BlackLivesMatter in the public temples.

    2. Good point. She was trying to make fun of Kelly and she ends up being hanged by her own petard.

      Yes, it is ridiculous that someone would be fired over this, but there is a strong note of irony in this particular story.

  16. This tree is indeed rotten and dumb. But a lot of people are declaring the forest racist against whites. I disagree. Whites are not being oppressed, guys.

    I still feel pretty lucky to be a hetero white dude in America.

    This is a dumb thing that happened. And blackface hysteria affects has a disparate impact on nonblacks. Indeed, most of anti-racism impacts, both the good and the bad affect whites disproportionately. This does not mean it’s racist against whites.

    There are two ways to see this:
    *This is a change for the worse for white people from the original status quo, and thus whites are being oppressed.

    *This is a change from the status quo where whites could get away with a bunch of racist stuff towards a less racially inequitable status quo. That’s going to be a change for whites, but a net good socially overall.

    This also gets into how much easier it is for the dominant paradigm to be damagingly racist versus a minority. I don’t buy that minorities cannot be racist, but it is more difficult. E.g. whiteface. Or the term ‘cracker.’ Why do you think those are not as offensive as their race-reversed counterparts? Has to do with the power dynamic.

    1. People like you always think the revolution comes for them last.

      1. I’m going to take huge pleasure in watching the non-white pawns of the left turn on the white liberals who think they’re immune from what the disaster that is coming.

      2. …Do you think I’m calling for a revolution? I’m an incrementalist.

        I don’t even like the statues coming down, ffs.

        1. I don’t know why people are jumping on you so hard today. Anyway I like you.

          1. Thanks, man!

            IMO, and I know I’m engaging in speculative telepathy here, it’s a hangover from the opinions earlier in the week. People are angry, and who can blame them.

            Luckily anger like this isn’t sustainable for very long.

            1. I hope not, at least. Dunno if I can stand making fun of the tin-pot revolutionaries that have arrived recently/people are turning into.

              I see enough of that dumb stuff on the socialist forums I lurk on.

      3. Please Bob, tell me one thing Sarcastro said that isn’t true. It’s sad that you and the rest of your tribal warriors are so allergic to nuance that you don’t know reason when you see it. You look at an olive branch and see a gun.

        1. They will come for you too Leo.

          1. I suspect when this all collapses, Jews are going to be targeted, even though only the liberal ones deserve it.

            That’s why I changed my name so many years ago (even though I only have 1/2 Jewish heritage)

            1. “I suspect when this all collapses, Jews are going to be targeted, even though only the liberal ones deserve it.”

              What exactly is “this” which you expect to “all collapse()” at some point. The constitutional republic our Founding Fathers chose for us >220 years ago? Is that what you expect to collapse? How far do you project the collapse you have in mind.? Will fascism succeed it?

              Jews are going to be “targeted” like they were in Nazi Germany and in Charlottesville? Who will be leading/directing the Jews, though in your considered opinion “only the liberal ones deserve it? And what exactly do you think the Jews, deserving and undeserving, have coming to them? Annihilation or something less drastic, perhaps along the lines of some currently oppressed populations around the world?

              Do you think that you share the thinking of BobfromOhio on this? That of “RabbiHarveyWeinstein”?

              1. There’s a few things that will collapse. To start, our deficit spending and reckless monetary policy is not sustainable, and will lead to a financial collapse. When that happens, and people don’t have their basic needs cared for, there will be civil unrest the likes of which America has never seen.

                The American project already is dead. The Constitution means nothing, and leftists have spent the last 55 years replacing the American people. Replacing them with immigrants who care nothing about our history, our culture, or our shared Anglo-Saxon ethos.

                I think when the financial system collapses, Jews will be the obvious target of ordinary Americans who have seen their country destroyed.

                And no, I don’t think I share BobfromOhio’s thinking. My thoughts are mine alone.

    2. “Whites are not being oppressed … I still feel pretty lucky…”

      Arguments of a similar character:

      You’re more likely to get killed in a car accident than a terrorist attack. Why are you making such a fuss about the World Trade Center
      Sure your daughter got killed by illegals. But illegals are actually less likely than … to commit …
      These police killings of blacks are rare. And what about black-on-black crime?

      These attacks against [your people] are rare; look at the big picture is a bad argument. It’s the educated way of saying “I don’t care, your concerns don’t matter, you don’t matter”.

      Nothing is going to get better until we put an end to your concerns don’t matter as the regular answer when someone is attacked.

      1. Ben_ not once did I say not make a fuss about this case. Which all of your arguments assume.

        In fact, I was quite careful to say this was bad and should stop. I lead off with it, and then repeated it.

        So you need to ask yourself why you had to strawman me quite that hard.

        1. I never said you did. Strawman return volley.

          1. All of your ‘arguments of a similar character’ were about dismissing the impacts of a tragedy on an individual because of statistics.

            I did not do that.

            Would you care to clarify the point you were trying to make?

            1. It’s hard to read “Whites are not being oppressed … I still feel pretty lucky…” as not dismissive of a concern.

              1. I am dismissing the collective concern that whites are oppressed in America, not the individual concern that this lady got railroaded and it sucks.

                As I said 2 times in my OP.

                1. We can all dismiss each other’s concerns in America then.

                  That will help, right?

    3. I agree that being a white straight male is still the dominant class in society. As such, the gains from both good and ill intentioned actions in the past do go predominantly to white men today. We still sit in the drivers seat.

      However… history is not a moment but a trend. If someone for the Washington Generals said “WTF? That is cheating! We are getting screwed!” they would be right. To point at the scoreboard in the first few minutes of the game to say “But you are winning! You aren’t the victims!” is naive. Today in the US the trend is that white men must pay for past crimes or at the very least carry the cost of uplifting people of today. White men can still be in the driver’s seat while at the same time others in the car are in the process if violently ripping them out of the car. Those aren’t exclusive states of being because, as I said, history is a trend not an instant.

      It is like being shot. After the trigger is pulled I may proclaim “I’m being shot!” If you were to evaluate my health while the bullet is in the air you would tell me to stop whining and say “White men aren’t facing any real issue… they are still in good health at this moment.” Then the bullet strikes and your declarations did not save me.

    4. I’m not going to believe Democrats take things like blackface and sexual harassment seriously until they go after the highest ups on their own side for it. Why should this obscure 54-year-old be fired over blackface when the Governor of Virginia is still governor? Why should we lose sleep over Kavanaugh’s appointment and the accusations made against him when the ones made against Joe Biden are pretty much just ignored?

      It’s clear that you can be as racist and sexist as you want — if you’re a major player in the Democrat Party.

      Yet we’re supposed to believe that it’s Republicans that are the racist and sexist ones!

    5. I still feel pretty lucky to be a hetero white dude in America.

      You’re a goodthinkful hetero white dude, who can use your white privilege to amplify black voices and further justice. If you were a deplorable hetero white dude, on the other hand, you’d be well advised to keep your head down and your mouth shut at most big corporations and law firms in America today.

  17. Shrug. I think employees should generally have contracts, and that it shouldn’t be that easy to fire someone. But then I’m not a real libertarian.

  18. Well, at least she didn’t say “I can’t breathe “.

  19. Me wonders if she was terminated for an entirely unrelated reason and someone (in maybe H.R.) decided to pin the termination on the black-face thing, because that has the potential to look good in some circles.

  20. At least we don’t have to ask “have you no decency?”. Because the answer to that has been known for a very long time.

    If you were critical of a Trump for saying the news media is “truly the enemy of the people”, you should apologize and acknowledge you were wrong.

    1. I criticized Trump for saying the media is the enemy of the people, and I’ll neither apologize nor acknowledge I was wrong, because I wasn’t. His demonization of the press is despicable, dangerous, and like pretty much everything else he says, deeply dishonest.

      1. Enemies of the people stick together.

        1. Yeah, I’m a one man fifth column. When my Belgian and Canadian allies conquer this country, we’re going to make everybody read the N.Y. Times and watch Sesame Street.

          1. Your insignificance is a comfort to all.

            1. Don’t be so complacent. Who knows the lives I’ll destroy with my support of a free press.

      2. I can’t stand President Trump, but I can’t fault him for saying this, either. The Media hasn’t exactly been making a good case for themselves that they are the friends fo the people.

      3. Yeah. Sure. A judge dismissed Richard Jewell’s suit against the Atlanta Journal Constitution, saying their accusations against him were substantially true (that he was the Centennial Park bomber and as such the equivalent of Wayne Williams mass-murderer). Never mind that Eric Rudolph confessed and was convicted. Yellow Journalism, it sells papers and advocates causes and that is all that counts. All AJC had to do was admit they were wrong and apologize.

  21. Yeah, a lot of bad actors here – starting with the Washington Post.

    Not sure what they’re trying to do but I bet they end up writing some kind of apology/retraction/clarification.

    The company the lady worked for will have some explaining to do too.

    All three ladies involved sure weren’t or aren’t acting like adults either.

    Now please excuse me while I go back through 50+ years of my life to erase, er, review any s̶e̶x̶u̶a̶l̶ ̶h̶a̶r̶a̶s̶s̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ r̶a̶c̶i̶s̶t̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ dumbassery I may have been involved in.

  22. Getting anywhere close to the boundary line means you get fired upon. It’s not right.

  23. Can she make out a tortious interference with employment claim against the WaPo? Bad venue, of course.

  24. Yesterday some people were wondering how Bostock was going to bite them in the ass. Employers not being able to fire people for wearing blackface might be one way.

    1. Yesterday, and every day on VC, no one wonders if people with no legal experience generally, or no legal experience in a specific field (like employment law) will try to score partisan points by conjuring hypotheticals that they do not understand.

      No one wonders that because the appearance of the stupid arguments is as regular as Dr. Ed making up another story.

      “So, back in ’83, I used to see those black people in New Hampshire in White Face all the time! And you know what they said to me? They said, “Dr. Ed, thank you so much for not being a racist.” And how you like dem apples?

  25. Blackface is nothing but a form of clown makeup. And no person, group, or idea is so sacred that nobody should be making fun of him/it/them.

    Tell the hypersensitive complainers that it’s their problem.

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Right of Access

MLB Letter in Yankees Sign-Stealing Investigation Should Be Unsealed, Says Federal Judge

The decision has been promptly appealed.

|

From Judge Jed Rakoff's decision Friday in Olson v. Major League Baseball:

[T]his is a putative class action lawsuit brought by players of DraftKings Inc. … fantasy baseball contests against certain major league baseball entities and teams. In February, defendants moved to dismiss for failure to state a claim plaintiffs' First Amended Complaint ("FAC"), which asserted various claims of fraud, negligence, unjust enrichment, and violations of consumer protection laws. The Court granted the dismissal with prejudice, partially on the ground that the FAC failed to plausibly allege any actionable misrepresentation by the defendants that could support their various theories of liability.

Thereafter, plaintiffs moved for reconsideration of the Court's conclusion that the complaint should be dismissed with prejudice. In support of this motion, plaintiffs submitted a proposed amended complaint ("PAC") that they argued cured the FAC's deficiencies. One of the primary ways in which the PAC did so, according to plaintiffs, was by alleging two new actionable misrepresentations by the defendants.

One such misrepresentation was allegedly made by MLB Commissioner Manfred in a September 15, 2017 press release relating to the results of an MLB investigation into possible misconduct by the New York Yankees …. Specifically, plaintiffs alleged that the 2017 Press Release falsely suggested that the investigation found that the Yankees had only engaged in a minor technical infraction, whereas, according to plaintiffs, the investigation had in fact found that the Yankees engaged in a more serious, sign-stealing scheme.

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  1. Yankees cheating? The hell you say!

  2. I understand Professor Volokh is interested in the disclosure issue.

    But the underlying lawsuit seems odd. Why do people who make side bets on sports get to sue the sports people over whether they violated their own rules? I don’t see why the sports people owe them any duty.

    What next? Sports gamblers get to sue referees for making bad calls? Team managers and coaches of losing teams for negligent training?

    1. In fact, there is a whole bunch of caselaw on this point saying that suits by fans because they don’t like officiating decisions or even team cheating are not justiciable.

      This is just an attempt by a clever but amoral trial lawyer to come up with an alternate theory for extracting money from a deep pocket. The case should be dismissed as frivolous not merely because of a lack of duty but because the plaintiffs suffered no damages as a result. Gamblers qua gamblers don’t care ex ante who wins; they just care about predicting outcomes.

      1. In fact, the cass already was dismissed (on the pleadings without leave to replead), though that decision is being appealed.

    2. I have little knowledge of fantasy sports. But I believe they base their fantasy games on how actual players did play in reality, and this is where the skill comes in.

      Now suppose those real-life players cheat, say by fumbling on purpose. They have upset the skills apple cart. They have also cheated fans who came to watch good sportsball, not cheaters.

      Maybe that is where the lawsuit comes from.

  3. I wouldn’t call fantasy baseball a side bet. It’s more like a second level derivative of a side bet.

  4. MLB? Who cares? They have it backwards anyway.

    1. They chose the name on Talk Like Yoda Day.

  5. Am I reading this correctly? It looks to me like the plaintiffs filed a frivolous lawsuit and lost. Twice. But the defendants still got burned by being forced to disclose private documents as part of their defense.

    I understand and strongly support the need for open courts and open court records. But this appears to create an incentive to abuse the court system merely to harass defendants. We need something to balance the playing field. I think we need a credible loser-pays system to put some skin back in the game for plaintiffs.

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