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Separation of Powers

Is the CFPB Unconstitutional? We'll Soon Find Out.

The Supreme Court will consider a constitutional challenge to the composition of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

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Today, the Supreme Court granted certiorari in four cases. One of the four, Seila Law LLC v. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau asks the Court to consider whether the CFPB is unconstitutionally constituted. Specifically, the Court will consider whether it is unconstitutional for Congress to limit the President's ability to remove the head of a single-headed agency, such as the CFPB. In this Seila Law presents a similar question to Collins v. Mnuchin, in which the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit concluded that a similarly structured agency was unconstitutional.

In addition the constitutional separation of powers question, the Court has also asked the parties to brief the question of remedy. Specifically, the Court wants to know the extent to which the provision limiting removal of the head of the CFPB is severable from the rest of the law or, in the alternative, whether concluding that the CFPB is impermissibly constituted requires invalidating other aspects of the CFPB, if not the CFPB altogether.  The addition of this question was likely prompted, at least in part, by the Collins v. Mnuchin petition for certiorari, which sought the Court's attention to the remedial issue.

It is also worth noting that the Court has appointed Alan Morrison to argue in defense of the CFPB's constitutionality as an amicus curiae. This is necessary because the CFPB and the Department of Justice agree with the petitioners that the CFPB's current structure is unconstitutional.

Jonathan H. Adler is the Johan Verheij Memorial Professor of Law at the Case Western Reserve University School of Law.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. JPS
    October.18.2019 at 5:52 pm

    Minor correction:
    Professor Morrison wasn’t appointed to argue as amicus curiae (at least not yet). At this point, the court just ruled on a motion for his cert-stage amicus brief to be filed out of time.

  2. Krayt
    October.18.2019 at 5:59 pm

    The only way you can get away with the sophistry the regulatory state regulations are not unconstitutional laws is by claiming their creation is part of the executive branch enforcing Congress’ law, i.e. carrying out the law.

    As such, the heads of any such agencies only wield that power at the whim of the president.

    1. James Pollock
      October.18.2019 at 10:13 pm

      You’re confusing your chosen interpretation as the only possible interpretation, which is incorrect.

      The administrative state is possible because the Congress can delegate some of its legislative power to an agency, and so can the President do so (by signing the enabling legislation)

      Your mistake is assuming that any reduction of Congressional power MUST be an increase of Executive, and vice versa. But this is not so. The administrative state contains a fourth, BUT NOT CO-EQUAL branch of government, in the professional bureaucrats, which has some of the power ceded from Congress, and some of the power ceded from the Executive. They can choose to work together to revoke the ceded powers. Congress could write legislation eliminating any portion of the bureaucracy, and if it passes both houses and gets signed into law, they get the power back. If the Congress is divided about recapture, and doesn’t have the votes in one chamber or the other, they can’t. They also can’t do it without the President, unless a LOT of Congresspeople want it done.

      This creates a situation where the sovereign power of the United States is divided, which is a core principle of the Constitution. Keeping the sovereign power divided increases the likelihood that a tendency towards tyranny is countered by a portion of the sovereign power… which sounded pretty good to the Founders, who had experience with an entirely undivided sovereign..

      1. David Welker
        October.18.2019 at 11:36 pm

        What makes you think that Congress or the President can, in fact, delegate not only their own power, but the power of future Congresses and Presidents? Do these powers really belong to the Congress or the President (to be given away at their whim), or are they merely exercising those powers on behalf of the People they represent?

        Shouldn’t changing the allocation power in such a fundamental way require a constitutional amendment? Can the President give some of his executive power directly to Congress? To the Supreme Court? All of it?

        If there a law allocating some of the President’s power to Congress and the President vetoes it, what then?

  3. Grand Moff Tarkin
    October.18.2019 at 6:09 pm

    How will the government maintain control without the bureaucracy? Maybe we should ask, how will the bureaucracy maintain control?

    1. James Pollock
      October.18.2019 at 10:14 pm

      Fear will keep the local systems in line, fear of this battle station.

  4. Armchair Lawyer
    October.18.2019 at 6:24 pm

    Yes, it’s unconstitutional. Here’s why…

    1. It takes an executive branch function, but essentially removes it from the control of the democratically elected head of the executive branch, and puts it in the hands of a single, unelected bureaucrat, who can’t be removed except “for cause” (whatever that is defined to mean), while simultaneously removing it’s funding source from annual appropriations.

    2. You may think this is good. But let’s look at this from another viewpoint.

    3. After economic recession xyz, the “nationalist” party in the United States briefly gains control of the presidency and Congress. They pass a bill that empowers “General America” to form the “Protect America now” organization. An armed organization that is self funded through 5% VAT tax. General America can only be removed for very specific and narrow causes. In the meantime, the nationalist party loses many seats in the next election, then the presidency, but still maintain a fillibuster proof majority in the Senate. Meanwhile General America is gaining more and more power, through selective enforcement of new regulations….

    1. James Pollock
      October.18.2019 at 10:19 pm

      ” General America is gaining more and more power, through selective enforcement of new regulations….”

      … and then is removed “for cause” if they direct the agency in a way that is counter to the interests of the people of the United States.

      Note that removing a bureaucrat “for cause” is considerably easier than removing the President “for cause”, and the President has power over more than one agency AND the military forces.

    2. David Welker
      October.18.2019 at 11:31 pm

      I think we ought to separate our judgment of the constitutional question from whether we think the structure of the CFPB in particular is good or not.

      I think that the CFPB is “good” but I also tentatively don’t think it should be led by anyone who can’t be fired by the President. That said, I think that this is severable. The whole statute should not be declared to be void on this basis.

      But guess what. Ff the CFPB is unconstitutional, it might not be the only thing that is unconstitutional. What about the Federal Reserve Board of Governors? Each member of the board is appointed to a 14-year term (thus, spanning multiple presidencies) and are removable by the President “for cause.”

  5. Jerry B.
    October.18.2019 at 8:12 pm

    “This is necessary because the CFPB and the Department of Justice agree with the petitioners that the CFPB’s current structure is unconstitutional.”

    So, why is this even a thing, if the bureau accused of being unconstitutional agrees that it’s unconstitutional?

    1. Halykan
      October.18.2019 at 9:51 pm

      Because no number of executive branch organs have the ability to change the law (in theory). Since Congress seems disinclined to repeal the legislation that created this abortion of liberty and the democratic process, the other alternative is to have it struck down by SCOTUS.

    2. James Pollock
      October.18.2019 at 10:27 pm

      “So, why is this even a thing, if the bureau accused of being unconstitutional agrees that it’s unconstitutional?”

      The American legal system is based on the premise that when adversaries compete to prove their case, you’re most likely to get to the truth, because both sides have reason to dig into the evidence and precedent and present those that support their cause. You’re less likely to get truth when both sides are really only one of the sides, with the other side left out entirely. This will lead to both parties producing facts and precedent that support their side, and nobody presenting facts and precedent that don’t support them.

      Consider: If your premise is that Donald Trump is a corrupt scumbag, will get a fair determination if the two “sides” arguing this point are Hillary Clinton arguing the “yes” side, and Joe Biden also arguing the “yes” side, and nobody arguing the “no” side?
      In cases like this where the lawyers for both sides agree about which side should win, but don’t resolve it among themselves because they want a court ruling enabling them to order other people to do something, the court picks someone to argue the other side of the argument.

  6. Doug Heffernan
    October.18.2019 at 9:34 pm

    It would be good for the respondents if the “for-cause” removal provision is severed (which is the likely remedy if the court finds a separation-of-powers violation).

    The cfpb is currently captured by a bunch of ringers from the payday loan industry. The function of the bureau has been inverted to protect non-consumers.

    The current figurehead director is unqualified to lead the cfpb. Before her confirmation, she had no experience in consumer protection or financial regulation.

    Yet she would have to stay on even if the current president is not re-elected. But if scotus dumps “for-cause”, the industry capture of the cfpb can be reversed sooner.

  7. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf
    October.18.2019 at 10:26 pm

    IANAL. While I see the arguments for not wanting something as unaccountable as the CFPB, the arguments against it seem more based in what people want rather than strict legality and constitutionality. I do see the point of questioning its funding, but doesn’t the same problem exist with other agencies that are self-funded by the fees and fines they collect?

  8. James Pollock
    October.18.2019 at 10:32 pm

    “While I see the arguments for not wanting something as unaccountable as the CFP”

    By which, most people mean “not accountable to the people I want them to be accountable to”.

    Congress can dissolve the CFPB at any time, but the R’s couldn’t get enough votes to do it, and neither can the D’s (if they wanted to do so). If the CFPB does something actively harmful, however, that could change quickly.

    1. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf
      October.18.2019 at 11:19 pm

      Well, that ain’t what I asked. I am curious as to what the actual legal arguments are, not the obvious remedies already existing to get rid of it or reform it.

    2. Max H
      October.18.2019 at 11:39 pm

      Who is the CFPB —or civil servants in general—actually accountable to now?

      If the prez is to have the discretion needed to see “take care” that all laws are faithfully executed, agencies or programs shoved shoehorned into the executive branch should actually be answerable to him.

      This sort of CFPB dynamic is how particular ideologies entrench their agendas into government indefinitely.

      Also, I need to look at the statute again, but if Gorsuch ever gets Kavanaugh and Alito on board and revives the nondelegation doctrine he outlined in Gundy, I doubt this particular delegation would pass muster.

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Short Circuit: A Roundup of Recent Federal Court Decisions

Golf swingers, a gangrenous finger, and the ancient concept of "frolic."

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Please enjoy the latest edition of Short Circuit, a weekly feature from the Institute for Justice.

New on the podcast: A special live Third Circuit edition featuring Matthew Stiegler, appellate litigator and proprietor of the magnificent CA3blog.com, as well as Penn Law Professors Claire Finkelstein and Mitch Berman. Click here for iTunes.

  • Pennsylvania state senator uses gov't-funded legislative staff to do campaign work, which is not legal. (Her sister, a state Supreme Court justice, also uses the senator's staff to do campaign work.) At trial, the now-former senator introduces forged evidence. The judge declares a mistrial. After a second trial, she is convicted on an array of charges, including forgery. Double jeopardy? Third Circuit: No.
  • Allegation: For many years, Houston officials failed to test rape kits, which allowed serial rapists to commit additional crimes. Fifth Circuit: But the city has been trying to get its act together since 2013, so this suit, filed in 2017, is barred by one-year and two-year statutes of limitations.
  • Dallas police officials determine that detective "entered inaccurate and incomplete information" in probable cause affidavit to obtain arrest warrant for murder suspect. (The arrest warrant relied on an eyewitness who wasn't sober, told inconsistent stories (including saying his mother was at the crime scene), and was so distressed he tried to strangle himself with his own shirt, all of which the detective neglected to share with the judge.) Can the suspect, against whom all charges were dropped, sue the detective for false arrest? Fifth Circuit: Qualified immunity.
  • Ohio law prohibits doctors from providing abortions when they know the woman's reason is because the baby has Down syndrome. Sixth Circuit: Women have an absolute right to choose whether to terminate or continue a pre-viability pregnancy. Dissent: We're supposed to analyze the law using evidence and considering gov't interests at stake, not just nod to the legal standard with conclusory rhetoric.
  • Allegation: Inmate at the Genesee County, Mich. jail is blinded by pepper spray before two deputies march him down a hall and slam him into doors and walls. Excessive force? Deputy: Sure, I was one of the two officers who marched him down the hall, but the inmate can't say whether I was the one who did the door- and wall-slamming. Because, you see, he was temporarily blinded by the pepper spray. Sixth Circuit: Not so fast. The question of the deputy's involvement must go to a jury.
  • "This court once observed, '[w]hen a party comes to us with nine grounds for reversing the district court, that usually means there are none.' [Plaintiff] comes to us with twenty-seven." So writes Judge McKeague of the Sixth Circuit, affirming the district court.
  • On duty, out-of-uniform Detroit police officer barges into acquaintance's home to collect a $300 personal debt. Fingers are pointed, mace is sprayed, and the officer fires her service revolver, grazing a second occupant of the home. No dice on the occupants' federal constitutional claims, declares the Sixth Circuit. The officer's behavior "was the definition of the ancient concept of 'frolic.'"
  • Chicago film studio claims a state agency violated its rights by steering grants and business to its rival. An equal protection problem? The Seventh Circuit says no—because the rival studio was way, way better.
  • Reality show contestant sues rapper for sexual battery after he gropes, exposes her privates to a crowd at a bar. The rapper doesn't show up for trial, disparages the contestant on social media "in exceedingly vulgar terms." The jury returns a $7.1 mil verdict against him. Rapper: The trial judge wrongly allowed the jury to watch a video of me threatening (in front of the show's cast and film crew) to strangle the contestant. I should get a new trial. Seventh Circuit: Not so.
  • Two teenagers camping in Yosemite National Park campground are killed when a tree limb falls on their tent. Can their parents sue the feds for negligence? Two-thirds of a Ninth Circuit panel says yes; could be park officials knew or should have known the tree was a hazard.
  • Inmate cuts his ring finger, develops gangrene, and has the finger amputated. He sues in Kansas court without the benefit of counsel; his case is dismissed because he did not first notify the municipality, Wyandotte County, of his impending suit as required by state law. Tenth Circuit: And while he pursued his claim in state court, the deadline to sue in federal court came and went. So he can't sue here either.
  • In 2001, Justice Antonin Scalia famously asked, "What is golf?" This week, the Tenth Circuit took up the case of the late pro Moe Norman and his famous "single plane" swing. [Practice tip: If external circumstances force you to give up on a case, DO NOT concede that your opponent is the prevailing party.]
  • Retailer seeks permission to sell sex toys at Gwinnett County, Ga. store, but officials demur. The retailer sues, shenanigans ensue. The county repeals the adult entertainment ordinance and replaces it with a new one. District Court: The case is moot. Eleventh Circuit (2016): Not entirely; the retailer may pursue damages under the old ordinance and should probably be able to challenge the new ordinance. Meanwhile, the county seeks to enjoin the sale of the toys in state court. District Court: Aha! You can't sue in federal court while a state enforcement proceeding proceeds. Eleventh Circuit (2019, over a dissent): The retailer's suit, which has been going on for over four years, was far enough long that Younger abstention doesn't apply.
  • Man declines to speak with police, retreats from his porch back into the living room, where a Santa Rosa County, Fla. officer follows, tackles, and arrests him. False arrest? District court: Could be failing to talk to the officer was a misdemeanor offense (resisting an officer without violence). Qualified immunity. Eleventh Circuit: Reversed. Even if the officer had probable cause to make an arrest, he needed a warrant to enter the home without consent.
  • Man sells cocaine to undercover cops. A search of his Myrtle Beach, S.C. home yields more drugs and just over $20k in cash. And state law permits law enforcement agencies involved in a forfeiture to reap 75% of the proceeds, so can the cops keep the cash? South Carolina trial court: No dice. The forfeiture statutes violate the Eighth Amendment's prohibition on excessive fines and the due process protections safeguarded by both the Fifth Amendment and the South Carolina Constitution.
  • Per Hailey's Law, Washington state police are required to impound a vehicle any time they arrest the driver for a DUI, regardless of whether the car is off the road or someone else can safely drive it away. But that violates the state's constitution, explains the Washington Supreme Court, because warrantless seizures require individualized consideration of the circumstances. This law eliminates that individualized consideration, and the legislature cannot legislate constitutional rights away. (IJ signed on to an amicus brief urging the court to reach this holding.)
  • And in en banc news, the Fourth Circuit will reconsider its ruling that Maryland and D.C. lack standing to sue President Trump for violating the Constitution's Emoluments Clauses by maintaining an ownership interest in various hotels and other businesses that provide him with millions of dollars from foreign and local gov'ts.

Late last year, Oregon engineer Mats Järlström scored an important First Amendment victory against the state's engineering board. Mats, who has a degree in electrical engineering, had done some research and concluded the math behind how the state's yellow traffic lights were timed was incomplete. When he presented his findings, the engineering board investigated him for two years and then fined him $500 for daring to talk about math without a license from the board. In 2018, a federal judge put a stop to that. And last month, Mats got a second round of vindication when, based on his findings, a team of engineers and activists persuaded the Institute of Transportation Engineers to reevaluate its guidelines. Click here for more.

John Ross

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. D-Pizzle
    October.18.2019 at 4:15 pm

    Did you even read the Fifth Circuit QI case. It’s only ten pages long for cripes sake. Though detective Perez used QI as an alternate theory for why Jones should not prevail in his civil rights lawsuit, she ultimately prevailed because the court found that probable cause for arrest existed. QI did not enter into the decision. It’s just as easy to get these things right as it is to get them wrong.

  2. Bob from Ohio
    October.18.2019 at 4:33 pm

    6th Circuit: They are “useless eaters” anyway per Judge Karl Brandt

  3. Krayt
    October.18.2019 at 5:04 pm

    Sixth Circuit. The officer’s behavior “was the definition of the ancient concept of ‘frolic.'”

    The way a frog hops about?

  4. Rossami
    October.18.2019 at 5:10 pm

    The Ninth Circuit is just wrong. For the same reason you can’t win a suit for getting hit by a foul ball at a baseball game, you should not be able to sue for not seeing the dead branch above your tent. In fact, you should be even less able to sue because you have no control over whether a ball will come your way during a game but any Scout will tell you that tent campers are specifically taught to check for and to not camp under widowmakers.

    1. Brett Bellmore
      October.18.2019 at 5:57 pm

      Well, yes, but arguably that’s why they should lose the suit, not a reason why they shouldn’t be able to file it. How obvious the widowmaker was, might be a job for a jury to decide.

      1. James Pollock
        October.18.2019 at 9:18 pm

        If it was obvious, then the landlords lose, for not addressing a known hazard. “They should have known it was a hazard, too” doesn’t negate the liability.

    2. mse326
      October.18.2019 at 7:28 pm

      I’m not sure I agree with you. Property owners are required to make reasonable efforts to protect against known hazards. In baseball they do that by warning because they can’t know when or where a ball will go into the stands. But the government as landowner has a duty to inspect and protect (the level of protection contigent on the status of the person harmed (e.g. business, guest, trespasser)). If it didn’t do that then it is liable just as any ordinary landowner would be.

    3. Noscitur a sociis
      October.18.2019 at 7:48 pm

      The issue in this case wasn’t whether the Park Service was in fact negligent. It was whether that putative negligence would fall within the scope of the federal government’s waiver of sovereign immunity.

  5. Brett Bellmore
    October.18.2019 at 5:56 pm

    “Can the suspect, against whom all charges were dropped, sue the detective for false arrest? Fifth Circuit: Qualified immunity.”

    I continue to think that, if you were drafting a modern declaration of independence, “Qualified immunity” would feature prominently in it.

    1. Noscitur a sociis
      October.18.2019 at 6:14 pm

      As noted above, qualified immunity didn’t play a role in this case: both the trial court and the Fifth Circuit found that the defendant’s constitutional rights had not been violated at all.

      1. Brett Bellmore
        October.18.2019 at 7:02 pm

        Yeah, “But the Supreme Court has warned that there is no right under the Fourteenth Amendment “to be free from criminal prosecution except upon probable cause.” would itself get an entry in a modern Declaration of Independence.

        The fact remains that it is the judge who is to exercise judgement as to whether a warrant should be issued, not the cop. The process deliberately separates judgement and execution, to prevent judgement from becoming a mere formality.

        Depriving the judge of relevant facts is still an effort to circumvent that judgement, even if the cop himself has enough information to make the judgement. It isn’t his judgement to make!

        So I don’t buy their excuse for denying that there was a rights violation.

        And, yeah, the court did say “qualified immunity”.

  6. gormadoc
    October.18.2019 at 6:00 pm

    People can still sue for getting hit by foul balls, they just don’t win. This is very similar, considering that the government didn’t offer a very good argument as to why dismissal was the correct choice. The government just argued that posting a warning was “subject to policy considerations.”

    They won’t win, as long as the government actually bothers to make a real argument.

  7. Squirrelloid
    October.18.2019 at 7:53 pm

    Ohio abortion case dissent:
    On the one hand, what need is there for substantive analysis? If an act is legal bar the speech (which the law grants), and the speech is constitutionally protected (which it certainly is), then the act + the speech can’t be illegal. That’s just crazy. Court should have been able to quickly dispose of this case.

    On the other hand, what possible legitimate interest could the state have here? An interest in increasing the number of Down’s Syndrome victims? An interest in prohibiting abortion seekers from making rational choices? This doesn’t pass the laugh test.

    1. Robert Beckman
      October.18.2019 at 8:19 pm

      So if Roe v Wade is overturned, and the government then passes a ban on white parents having abortions, but makes it still legal for non-whites to have abortions, that’s perfectly ok?

      The governmental interest in protecting vulnerable classes would certainly apply in this case – children with Down syndrome are more likely to be aborted than just about any other group, and they’re inherently not in a position to defend themselves (either before birth, or after – Down syndrome, after all).

      Or how about the government pass a law that says abortions for undesirables is not only ok, but will be paid by the state? And then someone creates a non profit organization to execute that plan…. maybe they could call it planned parenthood?

      Where does this line end?

      *i think the state could also pass a law that requires an abortion decision to occur before knowing the sex or presence of any disabilities of the neonate, and for the same reason. China’s run into this problem, where girls are aborted so the parent can try again for boys, and that’s disgusting.

      1. James Pollock
        October.18.2019 at 9:25 pm

        “The governmental interest in protecting vulnerable classes would certainly apply in this case”

        But under Roe v. Wade, the mother’s privacy interest in choosing her own medical care outweighs the states’ interest in the pregnancy, pre-viability. This is true whether the state is acting to protect the right to life of the unborn child, or whether the state is protecting the right to life of the unborn child who is also a member of a particularly vulnerable class of unborn children.
        The state’s interest doesn’t preempt the mother’s interest unless the fetus (with whatever medical issues it might have) is viable outside the uterus it’s housed in.

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Trademarks

Go Walgreens!

Why are so many people in Washington DC walking around with Walgreens gear all of a sudden?

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Speaking of logos …  As you are undoubtedly aware, the Washington Nationals have scaled previously unreachable heights and will be playing in their first World Series, beginning this coming Tuesday, against either the Houston Astros (likely) or the NY Yankees (unlikely).

It's a true feel-good story, a nice antidote to the many other feel-not-so-good stories that suck up a great deal of oxygen in our Nation's capital. There's the improbability of it; the Nats lost 31 of their first 50 games, and, should they win the World Series, would be the first team since the 1914 "Miracle Braves" to have dug themselves out out of a hole that deep that late in the season. They had to overcome a history of postseason failure—four times in then last seven years they had reached an elimination game and lost, often in particularly soul-crushing ways—and they had to claw back from being three runs down in two of the elimination games this year (against the Brewers and Dodgers), becoming the first team in major league history to do in two consecutive postseason series.

With all the Nationals gear floating around town, many people have noticed that the Nationals' "curly W" logo bears a rather striking resemblance to the logo of the Walgreen's drug store chain; they are, as you can see above, almost (though not entirely) indistinguishable from one another.

Fortunately, it does not appear that Walgreen's, which has registered the logo with the PTO (Reg. No. 87678728), has any interest in contesting the Nationals' use of the logo—possibly from an excess of public-spiritedness, possibly from a recognition that the company actually benefits by having thousands of people walking around with "their" logo on their shirts and hats, or possibly from a recognition that while the logos are indeed quite similar, it would be difficult to show (as required under the federal Lanham Act) that consumers are "confused" or "misled" by the similarity, given the very different lines of commerce in which the two firms are engaged.  The Walgreen's logo is associated, according to the trademark registration, with a variety of goods and services—"non-medicated hand soaps, nail polish remover, eye makeup remover, moisturizing creams, skin care preparations, pre-moistened cosmetic wipes, deodorant for personal use, cosmetic products, shampoos …"—none of which is remotely related to the goods and services provided by the baseball team, and trademark law makes it extremely difficult to enforce exclusive rights across markets that are completely unrelated.

Go Nats!

David Post is currently an Adjunct Scholar at the Cato Institute, and was previously a professor at Beasley School of Law at Temple University.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. mad_kalak
    October.18.2019 at 10:20 am

    All that aside, walking around D.C. with a red hat these days, especially in certain neighborhoods, might not be the best idea if you want to be left alone.

    1. NoVaNick
      October.18.2019 at 1:46 pm

      Are you talking about red as the color of the Republican Party or as the Bloods’ gang color? Kind of ironic that most of the biggest Nats fans I know are prog Democrats

      1. mad_kalak
        October.18.2019 at 2:27 pm

        Red, as in it looks like a MAGA hat.

        1. Sarcastr0
          October.18.2019 at 6:50 pm

          Nats colors are red.

          You’ll be fine these days.

      2. Longtobefree
        October.18.2019 at 2:42 pm

        Red as in the color of communism.
        I still am trying to find out who assigned that color to true blue Republicans, and blue to the red-to-the-non-existent-soul Democrats.

        1. mad_kalak
          October.18.2019 at 2:46 pm

          Maps used to be blue for Republicans, in general. Here’s an article I read on this issue a while ago, and just dug up again. Political Colors

          1. Krayt
            October.18.2019 at 2:52 pm

            I noticed this a long time ago. I recall Reagan sweeping to re-election, and ABC news slowly zooming in on a blue map, “That little red area is Washington DC.”

            It’s on YouTube somewhere.

            I wondered if some pop psychologist thought blue was more appealing so media folks re-assigned it to the Democrats in later years.

            1. Krayt
              October.18.2019 at 2:54 pm

              As in red is more angry and that is unappealing to women-not-that-we-distinguish-or-admit-to-it-in-public.

            2. santamonica811
              October.18.2019 at 2:56 pm

              Yeesh. People whine about the weirdest things. Red = communism and also = Republican party. Dems changed to blue, so this must be the result of some diabolical conspiracy that involves the media.
              Cuz, you know, media bias.
              I’m sure the actual story is interesting enough, without adding on the usual delusional paranoid anti-media and anti-First-Amendment theories.

              #sad

              1. Bob from Ohio
                October.18.2019 at 4:54 pm

                “actual story is interesting enough”
                Not really.
                The networks alternated each election, it was GOP’s turn to be red in 2000, the election got prolonged as we know and it stuck.

                1. santamonica811
                  October.18.2019 at 6:38 pm

                  Bob,
                  Actually, that’s pretty interesting (in its simplicity) . . . I did not know that story at all. Thanks for adding the actual info. [And since it came from a poster with unimpeachable conservative bona fides, maybe it will shake Krayt loose from his (her?) delusional conspiracy wet dream.]

  2. Jett's Pop
    October.18.2019 at 10:30 am

    Nice post, David. But it’s a little misleading to say that the Nats had reached an elimination game four times in the last seven years and lost. If an “elimination game” is one where the Nats’ season would end with a loss, then Game 4 of the 2012 NLDS (Jayson Werth!!), Game 3 of the 2014 NLDS, and Game 4 of the 2017 NLDS were all “elimination games” that the Nats won. Of course, the Nats went on to lose the next game in each instance, and lost the series, but still . . .
    Go Nats, indeed.

  3. apedad
    October.18.2019 at 10:35 am

    What do Nationals fans do after they win the World Series?

    They turn off the XBox and go to bed.

    1. Kevin Smith
      October.18.2019 at 11:46 am

      I will be stealing this in the future for any number of sports teams. Thank you.

  4. Dilan Esper
    October.18.2019 at 11:00 am

    It’s not a feel good story for Montreal, a great baseball city which embraced Jackie Robinson (unlike Washington, which supports a football team with a racist nickname and had all white sports teams long after other cities integrated theirs), whose team was stolen from them and moved to Washington for cynical political reasons.

    I hope the Nationals get swept.

    1. Bob from Ohio
      October.18.2019 at 11:17 am

      “great baseball city”?

      Attendance in the Expos last 7 years got over 1 million exactly one time. The last 2 million plus attendance was 1983, Nationals have had that 11 of 15 years.

      Poor attendance doomed them.

      1. D-Pizzle
        October.18.2019 at 11:47 am

        That probably would not have been the case if not for the 1994 strike. The Expos that year were probably the best team in the majors and had a good chance of winning the World Series. They had a solid starting rotation anchored by Pedro Martinez, a good bullpen, a good fielding and hitting infield, and perhaps one of the best all-time outfields with Vlad Guerrero, Marquis Grissom, and Moises Alou. The strike really boned that team.

        1. Dilan Esper
          October.18.2019 at 2:52 pm

          They got hurt twice by player’s strikes. They also had a terrible ballpark. The fanbase was fine.

      2. Gasman
        October.18.2019 at 12:36 pm

        If what you mean by ‘attendance’ is a sold seat, regardless of the discount to make it sold. Attendance has not meant turnstile counts since 1992.

        1. Bob from Ohio
          October.18.2019 at 1:25 pm

          Yes, you are right.

          Every team counts it this way so you can still make a comparison.

    2. Mr. Hook
      October.18.2019 at 11:21 am

      That they used to be the Expos (Ex-Expos, as it were) is why I’m cheering for the Nats. The Expos were my first baseball love and taught me the game is mostly about having your heart broken—I’ll loathe Rick Monday to my final breath—but still hoping, and I wish they were still in Canada, but even so I’ll be happy if it finally has a title to its name.

    3. Kevin Smith
      October.18.2019 at 11:54 am

      Someone in Washington like Jackie Robinson though. before he became the first black player in the MLB he was among the first black men admitted to the OCS, and graduated to become one of the first black commissioned officers in the US Army

    4. Jett's Pop
      October.18.2019 at 11:56 am

      I assume, then, that you also root against the Minnesota Twins and Texas Rangers, teams that exist after various versions of the Washington Senators were moved — or “stolen” from DC — and became those teams? And every other team that moved (Brooklyn Dodgers, New York Giants, Philadelphia and KC A’s, Boston and Milwaukee Braves, etc. etc.)?

      1. Dilan Esper
        October.18.2019 at 2:54 pm

        Those teams weren’t stolen. Washington was, and is, a terrible baseball city, and those teams were not moved to Minneapolis and Dallas in order to curry political favor.’

        There should simply not be a major league baseball team in Washington. The city got several chances.

  5. Another David
    October.18.2019 at 11:08 am

    There’s some wiseass driving around northern Virginia with a Nats license plate that has the curly W on the left side, followed by the vanity tag ALGRNS.

  6. Krayt
    October.18.2019 at 11:23 am

    They’re tired of being ashamed of being oxycodone addicts?

  7. bernard11
    October.18.2019 at 12:44 pm

    Fortunately, it does not appear that Walgreen’s, which has registered the logo with the PTO (Reg. No. 87678728), has any interest in contesting the Nationals’ use of the logo—possibly from an excess of public-spiritedness, possibly from a recognition that the company actually benefits by having thousands of people walking around with “their” logo on their shirts and hats, or possibly from a recognition that while the logos are indeed quite similar, it would be difficult to show….

    Or possibly because even if they succeeded it would accomplish nothing except getting a whole of people seriously pissed off at them. Not a good plan.

    1. NoVaNick
      October.18.2019 at 1:42 pm

      I much prefer Walgreens to CVS, although the latter is much more common in the DC metro area. I don’t think Walgreens would want to lose what small presence it has.

  8. MatthewSlyfield
    October.18.2019 at 1:03 pm

    The team should be renamed to the Washington FUBARs

    Truth in advertising!

  9. Jerry B.
    October.18.2019 at 1:23 pm

    Reminds me of the “Kids First” vanity plate I saw several years ago with the added text, “Eat The”.

    Someone was apparently prescient about the looming extinction of all life on earth in 2030.

  10. ThomasW
    October.18.2019 at 4:15 pm

    Walgreens obviously needs to hire more lawyers. 🙂

    Nice to see legal sanity on occasion, as opposed to when Sun Microsystems sent a business named “Javan” a demand they change their name as confusing with “Java”.

  11. Iowegian
    October.18.2019 at 7:43 pm

    DC is the epicenter of evil in the United States.

    Beat the Bureaucrats!!

    Even if that means *** shudder*** the Yankees.

Please to post comments

Today in Supreme Court History

Today in Supreme Court History: October 18, 1960

|

10/18/1960: Gomillion v. Lightfoot argued.

The Warren Court (1958-1962)

Today in Supreme Court History

Today in Supreme Court History: October 17, 1862

|

10/17/1862: Justice David Davis takes oath.

Justice David Davis

The NBA/Hong Kong Tweet Controversy, and the Symbolism of the Logo

|

Sinologist (and Penn professor) Victor Mair (Language Log) has more on one of the less discussed features of the now-famous Tweet from Houston Rockets general manager Daryl Morey:

The question Prof. Mair discusses is: What's with the logo? Here's what the Stand With Hong Kong Facebook page says:

After Daryl Morey reposted our logo in an effort to #StandWithHK and Hongkongers' ongoing fight for freedom and democracy, the Chinese state intimidated both him and the NBA into silence. But what does our logo actually mean?

Our logo consists of the Chinese character for "person/people (人)", repeated five times and converging from around the globe on one place—Hong Kong. The number five represents the five key demands made by protesters in June 2019. The form of the logo resembles the shape of an opened umbrella, a well-known symbol of the democracy movement. It also brings to mind the bauhinia, a flower native to Hong Kong and its official symbol.

We created this logo to raise international awareness of the situation in Hong Kong. Hongkongers across the world stand united in our fight for freedom, building on a long history of protest and resistance.

We are not afraid of intimidation & censorship. Fight for Freedom. Stand with Hong Kong.

Will you join us and #StandWithHK?

standwithhk.org

P.S. NBA, don't you think our logo looks like a team huddle? This is part of the meaning of the design as well.

Eugene Volokh is the Gary T. Schwartz Distinguished Professor of Law at UCLA.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. AmosArch
    October.17.2019 at 2:08 am

    These corporations and orgs were so brave standing up on twitter against the vast hordes of antitransgender bathroom and men’s rights activists but now they shrivel up the second Uncle Mao casts a frown their way? What happened?

    1. santamonica811
      October.17.2019 at 4:56 am

      What happened? Money happened. Liberals (and apolitical folks) can whore their integrity just as quickly and dispassionately as conservatives. Which is shocking news to no one. Pretty much all large-scale/international businesses don’t want to screw up their chance to suckle at the teat of China’s consumers.

    2. Armchair Lawyer
      October.17.2019 at 6:56 am

      China actually represents a real threat to their future business and profits, by threatening to kick out the NBA, if the NBA doesn’t toe the line. If the NBA says something China doesn’t like, the NBA gets kicked out, and doesn’t get to come back for a long time.

      The state of North Carolina (as a counter example)…does not represent a “real threat”. And it’s not because of how big NC is, but because of American culture. No one believes that the state of North Carolina will kick out the NBA, if the NBA doesn’t “agree with” North Carolina laws. That’s not how things work in America.

      If the NBA protests in NC, they can do so…then they can (and will) quietly go back in when things have quieted down to get more profits. And NC will let them. Because we, in America, believe in a diversity of opinions, and that’s OK.

      1. Krayt
        October.17.2019 at 7:49 am

        In both cases they kneel to the money. Both are loud virtue signalling.

        In the case of China, the signaled virtue is “We can expect to help export censorship to other nations”. “How wise you are.”

    3. Sam Gompers
      October.17.2019 at 10:04 am

      They must think transes can use the wrong bathrooms over in China

      1. James Pollock
        October.17.2019 at 11:28 am

        If they’re peeing in the bathrooms, they’re in the right rooms for that.

    4. James Pollock
      October.17.2019 at 11:28 am

      “now they shrivel up the second Uncle Mao casts a frown their way? What happened?”

      Turns out that Uncle Mao has his own country. Whereas the anti-trans folks are here in MY country. Fix THIS country’s screwed up bits before starting in on all the other countries’ screwed up bits.

  2. Stephen Lathrop
    October.17.2019 at 3:24 am

    Great logo, even without the explanation.

    1. Dilan Esper
      October.17.2019 at 11:47 am

      To me it looks like a soccer ball (or a FIFA World Cup logo).

  3. jubulent
    October.17.2019 at 7:57 am

    What are the five key demands? I recall one of them concerned extradition and that law was repealed.

    What’s the status of the other four?

    1. MatthewSlyfield
      October.17.2019 at 3:37 pm

      https://standwithhk.org/

      Universal suffrage, i.e. ability for individuals to vote with equal weighting as any other, and to run for office without arbitrary pre-screening

      Establishment of an Independent Commission of Inquiry to investigate police brutality and root causes of the protests since June 2019

      Retraction of the ‘riot’ designation of the initial protests in June 2019

      Amnesty for protesters arrested in relation to the movement, given the prevalence of excessive and arbitrary arrests

      Withdrawal of the Extradition Law Amendment Bill (pending Legislative Council resumption in October 2019)

  4. Atlas_Shrugged
    October.17.2019 at 7:58 am

    Adam Silver should hang his head in shame. This of course, assumes he can actually perceive a sense of shame. Adam Silver has cast aside any moral scruples and made himself a whore for Red Chinese money. It is that simple.

    And the players who willingly go along with this charade are all alike; morally bankrupt money whores.

    1. apedad
      October.17.2019 at 8:49 am

      Why stop at the NBA?

      Do you shop at Walmart or Target?

      Something like 60 – 90 % of their products are made in China.

      I recall reading something like 90% of the toys in the US are made in China and around 60 – 70% of the shoes.

      The Chinese own a lot of U.S. debt — $1.123 trillion as of December 2018: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/080615/china-owns-us-debt-how-much.asp

      But yeah, let’s only bash the NBA.

      1. Bob from Ohio
        October.17.2019 at 9:14 am

        You are right. We should freeze that debt and impose a complete trade embargo with China.

        1. James Pollock
          October.17.2019 at 9:20 am

          Sure. What use have we for a functioning economy?

          1. Bob from Ohio
            October.17.2019 at 10:10 am

            “What use have we for a functioning economy?”

            Trade with China is about 8% of our GDP. Not fatal. We have plenty of toys, heck my daughter can supply a couple dozen families herself.

            1. James Pollock
              October.17.2019 at 11:23 am

              “Trade with China is about 8% of our GDP. Not fatal.”

              When the Chinese aren’t taking their trade surplus and investing it in our government, who will be?

              Let me guess… your daughter will be happy to pick up the slack?

              1. Bob from Ohio
                October.17.2019 at 1:10 pm

                “When the Chinese aren’t taking their trade surplus and investing it in our government, who will be?”

                They won’t have a “trade surplus” anymore,

                The Fed can just quanitative ease some more.

        2. apedad
          October.17.2019 at 9:47 am

          Now I see why you’re a Trump support.

          Let’s just renege/ignore our debts and debtors, which and who we willingly accepted.

          That’s not how things are done in the grown-up world.

          1. Bob from Ohio
            October.17.2019 at 10:03 am

            We freeze foreign assets all the time. Yet people still buy our debt and invest.

            The Federal Reserve holds twice the debt as China. It can just buy more. Didn’t you support “quanitative easing” before Trump?

            1. James Pollock
              October.17.2019 at 2:14 pm

              “Yet people still buy our debt and invest.”

              Specifically, the Chinese people do.

              1. Bob from Ohio
                October.17.2019 at 2:23 pm

                Its 5%. Japan is nearly as much, about 4%.

                If you lost 5% of your income, would it mean death or just belt tightening?

                1. MatthewSlyfield
                  October.17.2019 at 3:50 pm

                  Among foreign governments, China is the largest holder of US federal government dept.

                  However, the single biggest holder of US federal debt is the US government itself. around half (give or take a few %) of the US national debt is held by the Federal Reserve and other intragovernmental accounts such as the SS trust fund.

                  1. MatthewSlyfield
                    October.17.2019 at 3:51 pm

                    Source for the above

        3. TwelveInchPianist
          October.18.2019 at 1:23 am

          “You are right. We should freeze that debt and impose a complete trade embargo with China.”

          Just stop borrowing money. The trade surplus will take care of itself.

      2. Armchair Lawyer
        October.17.2019 at 6:09 pm

        “Why stop at the NBA?
        Do you shop at Walmart or Target?
        Something like 60 – 90 % of their products are made in China.”

        Because there’s a difference between buying from a low cost supplier, and bending your ethics to gain acceptance into a country’s market.

        Because if China told Walmart “If you want to buy from us, you’d better not criticize us…or else…” Walmart would look at that, look at the potential threat to its supply chain, and change suppliers to a more reliable supply chain. Not unlike what’s happening now, with the China tariffs, and companies moving their supply chains out of China.

        Walmart only buys from China, because it’s a low cost, relatively dependable supplier. The second China stops being such, they’ll switch to the next supplier in an instant.

      3. Krayt
        October.18.2019 at 10:47 am

        For better or for worse, the elected leaders in the west have chosen a policy of economic engagement with China, so companies opening up shop there are ok and doing the desired policy of said elected officials.

        That’s a far cry from exporting censorship, and tring to wear a halo for it, like its virtual signalling from Evil Lebron in the Mirror Universe.

    2. James Pollock
      October.17.2019 at 9:20 am

      “Adam Silver should hang his head in shame. This of course, assumes he can actually perceive a sense of shame. Adam Silver has cast aside any moral scruples and made himself a whore for Red Chinese money. It is that simple.”

      That bastard capitalist. Trying to make money by running a business.

      1. Atlas_Shrugged
        October.17.2019 at 9:53 am

        Hey Pollock, I have no issue with the NBA wanting to make money. I want them to make lots of money. Capitalism works.

        That said, the virtue-signaling and hypocrisy of Adam Silver and NBA players is truly something to behold. The term – a whore for Red Chinese money – fits them perfectly. If the NBA wants to pimp themselves out to the highest bidder, they are free to do so. Just as I am free to call them out for it.

        1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
          October.17.2019 at 10:25 am

          Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland asked me to thank you for mentioning hypocrisy in the context of a blog that engages in hushed, partisan, viewpoint-discriminatory censorship, then loudly faults censors in other contexts.

        2. bernard11
          October.17.2019 at 10:40 am

          Hey, A_S.

          I guess from your name that you are a fan of Milton Friedman. Remember that he said business has no social responsibility other than making money.

          And I wonder what Ms. Rand herself would have thought about this.

          I mean, I agree that the NBA shouldn’t be sucking up to China here, but I’m surprised so many libertarian, Randist, etc. think so.

          1. KevinP
            October.17.2019 at 11:52 am

            You must have missed the NBA’s proud woke stands on various far-left causes here in the US.

            1. bernard11
              October.17.2019 at 11:58 am

              Why do you say that?

          2. JesseAz
            October.17.2019 at 12:10 pm

            Rand would have said not to sell put your morals to the highest bidder. But you obviously have no idea what her beliefs actually were, so go with your ignorance.

            1. James Pollock
              October.17.2019 at 2:16 pm

              “Rand would have said not to sell put your morals to the highest bidder”

              Selling out to the lower bidders is bad business.

          3. Atlas_Shrugged
            October.18.2019 at 6:37 am

            Bernard….I am a fan of Friedman. I thought his writings that discussed a negative income tax pointed to a way to address our bloated bureaucratic state.

            Here is where the difference lies: Are the actions of the NBA consistent with honesty, transparency, a free exchange of value for value based upon agreed upon rules? The answer in this case is No.

            The hypocrisy is what I find particularly grating.

        3. James Pollock
          October.17.2019 at 11:20 am

          ” The term – a whore for Red Chinese money – fits them perfectly.”

          Yeah, those bastards will do whatever it takes to make a buck. Darn capitalists. And they won’t even STAY bought.

      2. iowantwo
        October.18.2019 at 8:35 am

        Trading blow jobs for 40’s is capitalism too. Doesn’t make it acceptable

  5. James Pollock
    October.17.2019 at 8:31 am

    When Britain decided to give Hong Kong back to China, they announced their intention to do so several years before doing so. People in Hong Kong remained in Hong Kong despite knowing it was going to come under the authority of the PRC. They made their choice. As it is, they get more freedom than the rest of the PRC does.

    1. DRM
      October.17.2019 at 8:43 am

      That argument may work for everyone who was old enough to leave by 1997, but what about, you know, everyone under the age of 40?

      1. James Pollock
        October.17.2019 at 9:18 am

        What about ’em? Until the protests shut down the airport, it had international flights.

        1. iowantwo
          October.18.2019 at 8:38 am

          Ohhhhh. Love it or leave it.
          What a concept I never thought of it that way. Sheds all new light on on the civil rights riots. They should have just left.
          Why make things better?

          1. James Pollock
            October.18.2019 at 9:59 pm

            They chose what they chose. I didn’t choose it for them. Fixing their problem(s) is not my responsibility today.

            If, tomorrow morning, President Trump announced that he was giving Iowa back to the Indians, and you decided to stay in Iowa even though you are not an Indian, would it be my job to rescue you, should the new tribal government turn out to be holding a grudge or two about how the tribes were treated while their lands were occupied by foreign invaders?

    2. gormadoc
      October.17.2019 at 9:14 am

      They made the choice with the understanding that China wouldn’t do anything to them for 50 years, as was written into the constitution. That agreement has obviously been broken repeatedly by China.

      1. James Pollock
        October.17.2019 at 9:17 am

        Gosh, China represses people under its power? Why didn’t anyone say so until now?

        1. iowantwo
          October.18.2019 at 8:41 am

          I love President Trump.
          There is not another person ever that can get people to defend the worst of the world. China has murdered millions of its own citizens, and all the leftist can do is shrug.

          1. James Pollock
            October.18.2019 at 9:53 pm

            “all the leftist can do is shrug.”

            Let me guess… anyone who disagrees with you about anything is “leftist”, regardless of the positions they actually advance, right?

            Fixing China is not my problem, nor even vaguely within my power to accomplish. If that says “shrug” to you, so be it.

        2. NToJ
          October.18.2019 at 7:00 pm

          The protests are their way of saying something about it, you fucking idiot.

          1. James Pollock
            October.18.2019 at 9:49 pm

            Learn to fucking read before you fucking comment. Doing so will help you avoid saying stupid things.

    3. Kazinski
      October.17.2019 at 1:01 pm

      That ignores the terms of the deal which guaranteed Hong Kongers with their civil rights until 2050.

      Unless of course you are saying no rational person would trust the guarantee of a communist regime to respect civil rights, then I’ll have to concede your point.

      1. James Pollock
        October.17.2019 at 2:09 pm

        What communist regime ever broke its promise to respect civil rights?

    4. TwelveInchPianist
      October.18.2019 at 1:30 am

      ” People in Hong Kong remained in Hong Kong despite knowing it was going to come under the authority of the PRC.”

      Yup. And black people in the Jim Crow south stayed there after emancipation, despite knowing that white people there were racist. If black people didn’t want to get lynched, why’d they stay in the south, amirite?

      1. James Pollock
        October.18.2019 at 9:48 pm

        “black people in the Jim Crow south stayed there after emancipation, despite knowing that white people there were racist. ”

        Sure, except for the ones who left the sourth, and discovered that there were plenty of racist white folks up in the north, too.

  6. James Pollock
    October.17.2019 at 9:25 am

    Once upon a time, the United States took the best and brightest engineering students and science students from around the world, brought them here, educated them in American universities, and then put them to work building American industry.
    Then, some nativists starting complaining about all the foreigners taking slots in American universities and American businesses and demanded that we restrict how many of them could come here, and we actually started to do that.
    So the best engineering students and science students stayed in their own countries, and built industry there, where it now competes with ours.
    That’ll teach those dirty foreigners they can’t compete with American ingenuity and work ethic. Er, unless they can, I guess.

    1. Sam Gompers
      October.17.2019 at 10:09 am

      You’re not describing China. What the Democrats didn’t sell to them, they stole.

      1. James Pollock
        October.17.2019 at 11:18 am

        Yes, China. That big country on the east end of Asia. That one. (India, too.)

    2. KevinP
      October.17.2019 at 11:53 am

      So the best engineering students and science students stayed in their own countries, and built industry there, where it now competes with ours.

      Your understanding of world economics is amusing.

      1. James Pollock
        October.17.2019 at 2:10 pm

        Your lack thereof isn’t.

      2. Sarcastr0
        October.17.2019 at 2:46 pm

        I don’t always agree with James Pollock, but on this he’s full-on correct. Our hostility to China has been so broad-spectrum that we’ve ceded being the best place to do research worldwide, and America’s research leadership is now under threat in multiple areas, largely by China.

        1. Bob from Ohio
          October.17.2019 at 2:57 pm

          “we’ve ceded being the best place to do research ”

          Why is a dictatorship without political or civil rights a “best place”?

          1. damikesc
            October.17.2019 at 3:23 pm

            You aren’t supposed to ask how a dictatorial regime where free speech is verboten is the best place to do any research. It, apparently, just is. Cause…FYTW

            1. Sarcastr0
              October.17.2019 at 4:46 pm

              https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the-u-s-surrendered-to-china-on-scientific-research-11555666200

              1. KevinP
                October.17.2019 at 8:23 pm

                The authors of this op-ed:


                Dr. Emanuel is vice provost for global initiatives at the University of Pennsylvania. Dr. Gadsden is executive director of Penn China Initiatives. Dr. Moore is director of the Penn Global China Program.

                Come on, be a little more skeptical.

                1. Sarcastr0
                  October.17.2019 at 10:01 pm

                  Ad hominem is all you got?
                  Do you think the facts he brings are lies?

                  1. Atlas_Shrugged
                    October.18.2019 at 6:39 am

                    Do you think the facts he brings are lies?

                    Considering the source, I’d say the ‘facts’ they cite probably lack a lot of context. This observation is based on past behavior.

                    1. Sarcastr0
                      October.18.2019 at 8:28 am

                      Then engage the facts and bring in the context.

                  2. NToJ
                    October.18.2019 at 7:05 pm

                    It’s an opinion piece. There is no world court of scientific research that countries cede control to each other on. It’s fluff. The facts are what they are, but they certainly don’t prove that the US “surrendered to China” on anything. The “[a]d hominem” here is not to discount the facts, but to discount the hyperbole.

          2. Sarcastr0
            October.17.2019 at 4:43 pm

            They’re not the best; we’re just no longer the magnet we once were due to are paranoid stance about immigration generally and former Chinese nationals in particular.

            1. Bob from Ohio
              October.17.2019 at 5:00 pm

              No longer the best place for Chinese is what you mean.

              Fair enough.

              “paranoid stance about …former Chinese nationals in particular”

              Even paranoids have enemies.

              https://newrepublic.com/article/150476/american-elite-universities-selfcensorship-china

              Are the things described in that article not troubling to you?

              1. Sarcastr0
                October.17.2019 at 5:09 pm

                What does that have to do with scientists doing research?

                Do you think we should settle for not the best people out of fears of China’s global reach making people scared to talk about China?

            2. donojack
              October.17.2019 at 5:37 pm

              Chinese students are still the largest foreign cohort, over 1/3 of the total. We are still the only real magnet in the world but it’s inevitable that countries like China will develop domestic intellectual resources as their economy grows. It has nothing to do with your imagined widespread nativism.

              1. Sarcastr0
                October.18.2019 at 5:29 am

                Advocating that we rest on our laurels is a horrible idea.

                It’s not just that China is increasing it’s research share, it’s that ours is decreasing.

                This is not inevitable. Talk to a foreign-born scientist about the BS they need to put up with here.

                1. donojack
                  October.18.2019 at 8:11 am

                  I don’t know any so why don’t you tell us about the BS?

                  1. Sarcastr0
                    October.18.2019 at 8:32 am

                    Having to deal with two separate return dats / one from the visa and one from cbp
                    Having to lie to avoid having dual intent
                    Having your spouse and children being forbidden from working
                    Having to return to your country for two years before you can continue your studies once your graduate studies are done
                    Not being able to leave the country once you apply for a green card because that’s proof of intent to stay in the country and thus forbidden
                    Being unable to start a business because that doesn’t count as employed for visa purposes

                    Off the top of my head.

                    1. donojack
                      October.18.2019 at 10:15 am

                      And that is different from what country anywhere? How is it for foreigners working in China?

                    2. Sarcastr0
                      October.18.2019 at 12:18 pm

                      From foreign students/profs I talk to, these irrationalities do not apply to the EU or India.

                      And these are the ones that still chose to come to the US.

                      Besides, your blithe dismissal as probably fine makes no sense. These are bad policies. This is not some cost-benefit. This Kafka-esque legal maze is just the price you pay for not being flooded with…smart students who want to do science here?

        2. donojack
          October.17.2019 at 4:26 pm

          So if we didn’t have this “broad spectrum” hostility to China, which I take it to mean that we object to them stealing our intellectual property among other things, then we could go back to being the “best place to do research?” It’s hard to rank the nonsense that you spout but that has to be right up there.

          1. Sarcastr0
            October.17.2019 at 4:47 pm

            If our reaction is to institute policies that make it unappealing for smart foreign researchers to come here and (more importantly) stay here, then regardless of China’s sins, we’re screwing the pooch.

            1. Bob from Ohio
              October.17.2019 at 5:01 pm

              You realize Americans can be smart too.

              1. Sarcastr0
                October.17.2019 at 5:10 pm

                Smartness is not a threshold question.

                Neither is it a single modality.

                https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/kunal-bahl-ecstatic-over-unexpected-cameo-on-john-olivers-show-debjani-ghosh-finds-it-cool/articleshow/71195675.cms

              2. Sarcastr0
                October.17.2019 at 5:14 pm

                If we limited our academic researchers to only Americans, or only allies, we would be making a seismic contraction in our research enterprise.

                It’s been like that for a while

                1. James Pollock
                  October.17.2019 at 7:45 pm

                  We took in Europe’s best scientists after Germany shooed them out in the 30’s. How’d that work out for us?

                  We invested in education after the war. That worked out pretty well for us, too.

                  How well is telling them “nah, stay home, and develop new technologies and industry there. We’ll come get it” going to work out for us?

                  1. donojack
                    October.18.2019 at 8:03 am

                    Nobody is telling them to stay home. That is just in your head. There is no proof of that whatsoever. But you have Sarcastro believing it that’s something I suppose.

                    1. Sarcastr0
                      October.18.2019 at 8:33 am

                      You know nothing about immigration law.

                      We tell people to stay home regularly.

                    2. donojack
                      October.18.2019 at 10:08 am

                      That is one of the dumber things you have said in a long time, and that’s saying something. Over a million foreign students a year, we basically just shut the door on people coming in.

                    3. Sarcastr0
                      October.18.2019 at 12:21 pm

                      Not on everyone, but we do shut the door on people by making it much harder than it needs to be. That sends a message.

                      And that doesn’t count all the chuckleheads who think every foreign student is a potential agent of their government. Way to make a welcoming atmosphere.

                      We’re leaving good talent and high-skilled future Americans on the floor for others to pick up.

                      I’ve talked to people who work in the area and some who have had to deal with the system. You, on the other hand, don’t seem to be bringing much except not much liking immigration.

                    4. James Pollock
                      October.18.2019 at 9:44 pm

                      “Nobody is telling them to stay home. That is just in your head. There is no proof of that whatsoever.”

                      Boy, you sure showed me by citing all those facts. What was I thinking, believing all those people who say they want to sharply reduce immigration, particularly among tech professions like scientists and engineers, because the durn furriners are competing with Americans, and beating them at getting American jobs.

                2. donojack
                  October.18.2019 at 8:09 am

                  That study was published in 1984 so either you didn’t know that or you think we have been nativists since then, even through the Clinton and Obama years.

                  1. Sarcastr0
                    October.18.2019 at 8:36 am

                    read my comment. I chose that study to show how long our research enterprise has been reliant on foreign talent.

            2. donojack
              October.17.2019 at 5:29 pm

              Well we haven’t done that so I guess we’re okay. And I’m not sure what you mean by “foreign researchers.” Are you talking about employees or students? In any case it doesn’t matter because we continue to increase the number of H-1B visas and the number of foreign students continues to grow.

              1. James Pollock
                October.17.2019 at 7:46 pm

                “Are you talking about employees or students?”

                I was talking about both. Ever notice how there’s a lot of industry around good engineering schools?

    3. donojack
      October.17.2019 at 5:23 pm

      Foreign student enrollment in US colleges and universities has increased every year since 1949. In the last three years enrollment exceeded one million foreign students. The rate of growth has slowed but that is mainly due to soaring costs in the US.

      So I guess the nativists in your head has been doing a better job of keeping the foreigners out than the ones in the real world.

      1. James Pollock
        October.17.2019 at 7:47 pm

        “Foreign student enrollment in US colleges and universities has increased every year since 1949.”

        By an amazing coincidence, so has every other population metric. Almost like people keep having babies.

      2. Sarcastr0
        October.18.2019 at 5:33 am

        As noted, that’s an awful metric unless normalized. And when you do normalize it, our share of foreign student enrollment has dropped recently. Started, oh, about 2017.

        Also, an important point: foreign students/post-docs/professors are only foreign temporarily. These are usually not economic refugees; they are high skilled and in demand. They have freedom of movement and came here as a choice; they are generally looking to become American citizens.

        1. donojack
          October.18.2019 at 8:00 am

          The only reason for any rate drop is the ridiculous rise in education costs here, mainly due to administrator bloat. That and China in particular has developed some good schools. Still Chinese student enrollment has only dropped 1.5% in the last few years, so basically a trivial drop. Has zip to do with imagined nativism.

          1. Sarcastr0
            October.18.2019 at 8:37 am

            Grad students in many sciences are financed by grants and don’t pay tuition cost.

          2. Sarcastr0
            October.18.2019 at 8:52 am

            And normalize your percentage somehow. With population growth, and our flagging publication/cited publication rate, your dismissal looks pretty silly.

            1. donojack
              October.18.2019 at 10:03 am

              390,000 to 384,000. Oh the humanity!

              1. Sarcastr0
                October.18.2019 at 12:26 pm

                Oh, ffs.
                Are you bad at statistics, or trying to deceive people?

        2. NToJ
          October.18.2019 at 7:12 pm

          I don’t think James’s point was that China began competing with the US in “about 2017”.

    4. iowantwo
      October.18.2019 at 8:46 am

      Electronics. Majority built off shore. We might be getting some of that production back. But why do we desire the electronics? Content. Who is creating content?
      You can educate engineers and Doctors. But where does innovation come from? Free societies

      1. Sarcastr0
        October.18.2019 at 8:50 am

        Dunno what that says about America if we’re getting overtaking by China in the innovation space.

        1. donojack
          October.18.2019 at 10:13 am

          Numbers of published papers don’t tell us anything about real innovation. The Chicoms decreed that R&D would be 2.5% of GDP so there have to be some papers to show for all that extra spending.
          Do you seriously think that the quality of scientific research in China is equivalent to the US? Let’s see what great things they come up with. Maybe it will be as impressive as the accomplishments of the Soviet Union.

          1. Sarcastr0
            October.18.2019 at 12:30 pm

            Agree about that, but more robust metrics like Fractional Count or H-Value are also not looking good.

            Do a bit of Googling around. China overtaking us in the basic research space is not some out-there notion. By denying it, you’re the outlier.

            https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2019/01/12/can-china-become-a-scientific-superpower.

          2. Sarcastr0
            October.18.2019 at 12:33 pm

            Quality varies from area to area. We beat China in some areas, and not in others. Certainly China is getting a better bang for it’s buck at the moment (though they thusfar spend less bucks in absolute terms).

            I’d also like to think that a free society and market are a fuel that makes for a level of innovation that a closed society cannot match. I don’t think it’s borne out by the numbers.

  7. cmcc_aus
    October.17.2019 at 10:43 am

    I keep wondering, what percentage of the NBA’s total revenue comes from China. I can’t believe it’s really that huge, even if there’s some TV, an occasional exhibition game, and a little bit of royalties off shoe sales. Yes, the NBA might be dreaming that in decades to come if will be heewdge… but today

    1. Bob from Ohio
      October.17.2019 at 10:53 am

      According to Forbes, NBA revenue is $8 billion and according to USA Today last week it is $500 million from China.

  8. James Pollock
    October.17.2019 at 2:21 pm

    If the NBA’s choice to cater to their Chinese customers offends you, don’t buy their products.

    1. damikesc
      October.17.2019 at 3:24 pm

      Already done. I just LOVE watching hypocrites getting speared so thoroughly as they are.

      Cord-cutting is going to DEVASTATE the NBA. And that makes me feel all warm inside.

      1. James Pollock
        October.17.2019 at 7:48 pm

        Bragging about enjoying the misery of others? No, no, nothing psychotic happening here…

        1. donojack
          October.18.2019 at 8:19 am

          The misery of Lebron James, hmm. Enjoying that? Nothing short of psychotic.

Please to post comments

"It's Called 'Show Business,' Not 'Show Show' or 'Business Business'"

|

A nice line from legendary producer (Batman, Rain Man, Flashdance, and many more) Peter Guber, as reported by my colleague David Ginsburg. (For a published briefer version of the line, see here.)

Mysterious Swastika Incident at Yale Law School

A hate crime that wasn't?

|

On October 8th, the Yale Daily News reported:

Late Saturday night - between the Jewish High Holy Days of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur - anti-Semitic graffiti appeared on the steps of the side entrance to Yale Law School.

The graffiti depicted a white, spray-painted swastika above the word "Trump." By noon on Sunday, the graffiti was covered with black paint and a doormat. It has since been removed entirely. On Monday, Yale Law School Dean Heather Gerken issued a statement to the YLS community reaffirming the school's values, offering support and notifying the community of an upcoming investigation.

"We are saddened by this act of hate against our community at any time but understand that this is particularly difficult occurring between the High Holy Days," said Ellen Cosgrove, associate dean of students at Yale Law School. "Diversity and inclusion are core values of our institution [and] attacks against individual students or communities of students will not be tolerated."

Gerken emphasized that there is no evidence that a member of the Yale community painted the swastika, and stressed that the act of anti-Semitism is "utterly antithetical" to the values of the Law School.

"Yale Law School has zero tolerance for discrimination or harassment of any kind, and symbols of hate have no place on our campus or in our society," Gerken said. "We take an incident like this extremely seriously and are currently investigating."

Gerken encouraged anyone with information to reach out to her office.

Organizations in the Yale community, such as the Law School's Office of Student Affairs and the Joseph Slifka Center for Jewish Life, responded to the incident on Monday, condemning the action and offering support to students.

Rabbi Jason Rubenstein, Jewish chaplain at Yale, wrote in an email to the Slifka community Monday evening that the investigation into the perpetrator's identity is ongoing and is "relying on video footage from late Saturday night and early Sunday morning.

Anyone who has been following such "Trump plus swastika in very liberal environments" incidents would immediately suspect one of two things: (1) a hoax; or, perhaps more likely (2) the vandal(s) in question weren't trying to say "I support Trump and he's a Nazi," but rather "I hate Trump because he's a Nazi." Nevertheless, everyone at Yale treated this immediately as a presumptive hate crime.

Having seen the initial reports, I checked google for any followup. There was none that I could find. I wrote to Dean Gerken:

Dear Heather,

I just checked Google, and there appears to be no news about the swastika incident in the last several days. Early reports said that video surveillance existed to help identify the perpetrators. Has this video been released to the public yet to help the identification? If not, why not? Writing in my capacity as a blogger for Instapundit and the Volokh Conspiracy.
Best,
David
I received the following reply:

Hi, Professor Bernstein. Dean Gerken said that you had inquired about the graffiti incident last week. Any updates on the status of the investigation would have to come from the Yale Police Department.

Jan

Jan Conroy Chief Communications Officer Yale Law School

I responded:

Ms. Conroy, with all due respect, the law school sent out a release about this and would be the owner of the relevant surveillance video. Is there some reason the law school hasn't released the surveillance footage? Surely that would help identify the guilty parties.

That was Monday. I have not received a reply. I tried reaching out to the Yale police department, but was unable to reach a spokesperson.

Having informed law school and broader communities that a hate crime took place at the law school, I find it mysterious that the school has neither released the surveillance footage nor provided any updates as to the progress of the investigation.

David Bernstein is the University Professor and the Executive Director of the Liberty & Law Center at the Antonin Scalia Law School, George Mason University.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Sarcastr0
    October.16.2019 at 8:54 am

    Whether by the right or a hoax by the left, the statement just describes what happened and that it, and hate, are bad and will be investigated.

    I don’t see how that means Yale is on the hook to do its own investigation and can’t refer things to the police.

    1. Fancylad
      October.16.2019 at 11:49 am

      They said the college was reviewing video, you’d think that in the interests of justice that they’d release the footage of such a horrible hate crime being committed.
      Golly, what reasons could the college have for suppressing the video?

      1. James Pollock
        October.16.2019 at 1:22 pm

        The cops asked them not to?

        1. Greg J
          October.16.2019 at 2:20 pm

          1: Why would the cops ask them NOT to release the video? Don’t they want help identifying the responsible people?

          2: If the cops DID ask them not to release the video, why don’t they simply say so?

          Honest people don’t need to hide what they’re doing, in this kind of case.

          1. David Bernstein
            October.16.2019 at 2:59 pm

            Exactly.

            1. bookwork83
              October.17.2019 at 10:11 am

              Reminds me of the incident at Harvard a few years back. Someone used black tape to cover up the names of minority and/or black professors. Seems likely there was video of peeps as it was in a building, yet it somehow disappeared from coverage after the initial outcry

            2. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
              October.17.2019 at 12:35 pm

              “Greg J
              October.16.2019 at 2:20 pm
              1: Why would the cops ask them NOT to release the video? Don’t they want help identifying the responsible people?
              2: If the cops DID ask them not to release the video, why don’t they simply say so?
              Honest people don’t need to hide what they’re doing, in this kind of case.

              David Bernstein
              October.16.2019 at 2:59 pm
              Exactly.”

              Not exactly exactly. Police periodically ask television news departments not to broadcast video recordings related to investigations. Less frequently, in my experience, they request a recording and/or ask the journalists not to disclose that a recording exists. Broadcasters often request and receive a ‘most favored reporter’ arrangement in return for cooperation in this context.

          2. James Pollock
            October.16.2019 at 8:14 pm

            “1: Why would the cops ask them NOT to release the video? Don’t they want help identifying the responsible people?”

            You’re making an assumption about what’s on the tape. You should avoid doing that.

            But, some actual answers:
            1) the cops think the person in the video is someone who lives outside their jurisdiction, and they’re hoping to avoid letting the suspect know they’re on to them, and waiting for them to get caught inside the jurisdiction.

            2) The cops might be worried about people taking action extrajudicially.

            3) The cops aren’t actually taking the incident seriously, and don’t want to be pushed.

            4) the video doesn’t actually show anyone doing anything wrong, just people who might have been in the area. (IOW, the video isn’t pointed at where the vandalism happened, but it’s nearby… so anyone in the video MIGHT be a suspect, but not without corroboration.)

            “2: If the cops DID ask them not to release the video, why don’t they simply say so?”

            They said to contact the police. That’s the place questions about the surveillance should be directed. Spending extra time explaining this is a waste of their time. “Go talk to the cops” is a one-sentence answer that covers everything.

        2. Fancylad
          October.16.2019 at 8:06 pm

          You mean the campus cops who actually work for the College? Because they’re the only cops involved.
          You don’t even seem to understand what’s going on, but you’re going to shill for your teammates regardless.

          1. James Pollock
            October.16.2019 at 8:15 pm

            “You don’t even seem to understand what’s going on, but you’re going to shill for your teammates regardless.”

            You seem to have a problem with psychological projection.

    2. Roman Moroni
      October.18.2019 at 10:05 pm

      I’m no Trump supporter.

      But if I had to guess whether anti- Trump people wanted to associate Trump with a swastika or pro-Trump people wanted to associate Trump with a swastika, especially on the Yale campus… am I really nuts to think anti-Trumpers have more (any?) incentive to do such a thing?

      I’m really not wishing for a particular outcome or narrative. I’m just trying to work out the scenario where actual Trump supporters would come to Yale to commit a crime that puts Trump in, not only a negative light, but a negative light that fits the narrative of anti-Trumpers.

      Even if we make no assumptions about what might incentivize Yale (or Yale police) to not want the contents of the tape shown, I think it’s reasonable to try and figure out the possible incentives of the perpetrators.

      Do Nazis sit around thinking, “you know what we really need to do to further the cause of white pride and bigotry? We need to convince the students and faculty of Yale that Trump is a Nazi! It’s the perfect crime because it furthers our enemy’s narrative and not ours. It will confuse them into submission!”

      Sorry, but I’m having a hard time picturing this being on even the most irony-loving Nazi’s to do list.

  2. Sarcastr0
    October.16.2019 at 8:59 am

    I no longer by default believe a given statement comes from whichever political faction it seems to. But Slyly intimating that the default assumption is a hoax is also not a healthy position to take.

    Antisemitism is a problem on both sides of the aisle. Giving this kind presumption to one side and not the other is not going to solve the growing problem.

    1. David Bernstein
      October.16.2019 at 9:15 am

      How many “Nazis for Trump” do you think live near Yale Law School, compared to how many of the “I think Trump is Nazi-like” persuasion? There’s a Bayesian aspect to this.

      1. Queen Amalthea
        October.16.2019 at 9:21 am

        That reasoning seems questionable. Often it’s the zealots of one side that are immersed in a sea of ‘non-believers’ that are the most agitated to ‘act out.’

        1. David Bernstein
          October.16.2019 at 9:24 am

          I don’t think that’s an empirically sound assertion.

          1. Queen Amalthea
            October.16.2019 at 9:44 am

            I don’t think there’s much empirical evidence to support either way, but would be happy to be corrected. My point is that while ‘there’s more X radicals than Y radicals in place Z, so therefore any radical act is likely done by X radicals’ is reasonable it’s also reasonable that ‘Y radicals living in a climate of so many X radicals produces greater agitation for Y radicals to act radically’, or that ‘place Z, known by Y radicals to be a climate of so many X radicals, is prime grounds for a radical act’ (this is how ‘trolling’ works, no?).

            1. David Bernstein
              October.16.2019 at 9:57 am

              Even if a “Nazi for Trump” were 100 times more likely to vandalize than a “I think Trump is a Nazi”, there are way more than 100 times the latter than the former in the Yale environs.

              1. Queen Amalthea
                October.16.2019 at 10:10 am

                But we’re talking about the probability of someone doing a radical, illegal act, which implies things like motivation and strategic choice of target. For example, a person surrounded by those they disagree with on fundamental issues could reasonably be posited to be much more likely to be agitated to ‘act out’ in a radical (illegal) way than those who are in a largely supportive environment. Again, this isn’t strange, it’s exactly how ‘trolling’ often works (trolls are attracted to act out more in venues where most people don’t support their positions).

                1. David Bernstein
                  October.16.2019 at 10:13 am

                  Except that if you do the illegal act and you are a racist, you are going to jail. If you do the illegal act and you were “well-meaning” or “disturbed because of Trump,” the matter will be quietly dropped.

                  1. Queen Amalthea
                    October.16.2019 at 10:18 am

                    It will? Is there general evidence of that?

                    1. Vandalia
                      October.16.2019 at 11:20 am

                      Justin Smollett. QED

                      Can you provide any evidence of an individual who pulled a hoax and was prosecuted to the “full extent of the law”? That is, was prosecuted on every possible charge, and received the maximum sentence for every count on which there was a conviction?

                    2. M L
                      October.16.2019 at 11:39 am

                      See

                      http://www.fakehatecrimes.org/

                  2. Queen Amalthea
                    October.16.2019 at 10:23 am

                    Also, are you know changing your argument from ‘well, since there’s many more X radicals than Y radicals it’s safe to assume the radical act was done by X radicals’ to ‘well, since the political/legal environment is more likely to look askance at radical acts done by X radicals it’s safe to assume the radical act was done by X radicals?’

                    That’s not unreasonable. But do you find radicals are often dissuaded by that (think of the Quakers who kept coming back to Massachusetts until they got hanged)? Human nature is funny.

                    1. mad_kalak
                      October.16.2019 at 10:32 am

                      I guess it is up to Queen to please give us some real examples of these “hate crimes,” etc. that turn out to be real, rather than fake. There have been many fake ones, and off the top of my head, I can’t think of any real ones.

                    2. Vandalia
                      October.16.2019 at 11:23 am

                      These sorts of incidents are almost (>90%) always hoaxes. It is almost impossible to find an incident where it was a real threat by a “racist”, on the other hand “hoaxes” are too numerous to count.

                      There is a more fundamental reason to disbelieve this incident: True Nazis don’t commit vandalism, they kill people.

                    3. James Pollock
                      October.16.2019 at 1:26 pm

                      “There is a more fundamental reason to disbelieve this incident: True Nazis don’t commit vandalism, they kill people.”

                      would-be Nazis don’t kill people, they commit vandalism. Nice try, though.

                    4. jubulent
                      October.17.2019 at 7:59 am

                      would-be Nazis don’t kill people, they commit vandalism

                      See, e.g., Antifa

                2. Naaman Brown
                  October.16.2019 at 10:49 am

                  What’s the probability of a random unconnected troll doing a s*** disturbing prank for lulz of watching everyone point fingers and try to stake the high ground for their side?

              2. Queen Amalthea
                October.16.2019 at 10:17 am

                BTW-Trump got 42% of the vote in New Haven.

                1. Rossami
                  October.16.2019 at 10:36 am

                  Which isn’t really relevant because a very high proportion of the New Haven community are students registered to vote somewhere else. The vote by long-term residents (that is, those eligible to actually vote in New Haven) is a poor predictor of the opinions of the student+townie population and not at all useful in measuring the opinions of just the students (that is, those most likely to be on the Yale Law School property).

                2. David Bernstein
                  October.16.2019 at 11:00 am

                  Actually, Clinton got about 36K votes in New Haven to Trump’s 4,500. https://www.nytimes.com/elections/2016/results/connecticut

                  1. Ridgeway
                    October.16.2019 at 11:10 am

                    yeah — per wiki the 42% is for New Haven COUNTY. The city is majority minority by quite a bit, and, excluding the Universities, extremely poor. Not a bastion of Trumpism.

                3. Fancylad
                  October.16.2019 at 12:03 pm

                  Hey Queen Amalthea.
                  Remind me again how supporters of a President with Jewish offspring, who is accused of being a Zionist in Netanyahu’s pocket by the left and who made history as first sitting President ever to say Jewish prayers at the ‘Wailing Wall’, are Nazis.

                  1. James Pollock
                    October.16.2019 at 1:29 pm

                    well, a lot of them aren’t too bright.
                    They claim “family values” are critical, but support the porn-star-hush-moneying Trump to the still-married-to-his-first-wife Obama.

                    1. I Callahan
                      October.16.2019 at 4:32 pm

                      That’s pure (BS, in my opinion) opinion, but it doesn’t address the question Fancy asked. Whether he screwed some porno star or not, how does that make his Jewish offspring Nazis?

                    2. James Pollock
                      October.16.2019 at 8:17 pm

                      Who claimed his Jewish offspring are Nazis?

                      And, while you’re working that out, how does having Jewish offspring prevent someone from being like a Nazi?

                    3. Fancylad
                      October.16.2019 at 8:33 pm

                      “Antisemites will support a vociferous philosemite because they’re dumb”
                      Do you come from Bizarro World? Only there would an absolutely fucking retarded argument like that make sense.

                      “support the porn-star-hush-moneying Trump”
                      They support Trump because they don’t think he hates them and actively wishes them harm. Not because he’s a moral icon.
                      If you lefties toned down your sociopathic, anti-xtian eliminationist rhetoric for a bit, you might have a better chance at the polls.

                    4. NOYB2
                      October.17.2019 at 2:23 am

                      You’re confusing the president, an administrator, with a role model.

                      Trump is no role model, but he is generally giving more freedom to families and individuals.

                      Obama may be a great role model, but he was a lousy administrator, and his policies hurt many families.

                    5. James Pollock
                      October.17.2019 at 8:44 am

                      ” Only there would an absolutely fucking retarded argument like that make sense.”

                      Well, you wrote that argument, so we agree that your arguments are dumb.

                    6. James Pollock
                      October.17.2019 at 7:59 pm

                      “If you lefties toned down your sociopathic, anti-xtian eliminationist rhetoric for a bit, you might have a better chance at the polls.”

                      If you idiots did a better job identifying non-partisans, you’d have a better chance at the polls. Buh-bye!

                  2. NToJ
                    October.18.2019 at 5:07 pm

                    If you want examples of Nazis or white nationalists/supremacists supporting the President, David Duke, Andrew Anglin, and Richard Spencer to name a few from a quick google search.

    2. Bob from Ohio
      October.16.2019 at 9:31 am

      “default assumption is a hoax is also not a healthy position”

      Why not? There are many examples of hoaxes, ranging from Smollet to the “nappy hair” incident where Mrs. Pence works.

      When it happens in left wing environments, its a safe bet.

      1. Queen Amalthea
        October.16.2019 at 9:45 am

        Any evidence there are more hate crime hoaxes than actual hate crimes?

        1. Slocum
          October.16.2019 at 12:42 pm

          The overall rate is not the question, though. Trump supporters are very thin on the ground at Yale while Trump antagonists are numerous. And then the fact that the surveillance video isn’t being released suggests that it is embarrassing to Yale. If it actually showed some MAGA-hat rednecks sneaking up to the Yale library, you can be pretty sure the video would be everywhere. So I’m betting hoax just like I did with this case not far from where I live in Ann Arbor (which has also seen at least a couple of other hate crime hoaxes since Trump was elected).

          1. James Pollock
            October.16.2019 at 1:32 pm

            “The overall rate is not the question, though. Trump supporters are very thin on the ground at Yale”

            There’s this thing called an “automobile” that allows people to move from place to place, using public roadways. As you note, Trump antagonists are not shy about their antagonism. So that’s a vandalism target worth travelling to visit.

            Maybe it’s real, maybe it’s fake. Either way, the perp is to be pitied.

            1. Slocum
              October.16.2019 at 4:24 pm

              There’s this thing called an “automobile”…

              Yes, it’s possible some Trump supporters drove into New Haven to do the deed. But this strikes me as just about as likely as Trump supporters driving to Chicago to lie in wait for Jussie Smollet in Streeterville. Do we have any examples ANYWHERE of actual Trump supporters wearing MAGA hats and waving swastikas? You don’t have to merely believe it’s likely that some Trump supporters drove to New Haven, but that Trump supporters did this AND wrote ‘Trump’ with a swastika and somehow thought that was a good message for their side.

              1. James Pollock
                October.16.2019 at 8:19 pm

                ” this strikes me as just about as likely”

                Must be true then!

        2. Greg J
          October.16.2019 at 2:25 pm

          Queen Amalthea asked “Any evidence there are more hate crime hoaxes than actual hate crimes?”

          Sure!

          Please give us links to the ten worst actual right wing hate crimes you know of, in the US, since Trump’s election.

          For every one you come up with, we’ll come up with two fakes that pretended the same, or worse, crimes.

          1. ravenshrike
            October.16.2019 at 11:31 pm

            Ignoring the left/right divide, the ability to find evidence of real crimes vs hoaxes in incidences boosted by the media actually isn’t evidence of more hate crime hoaxes than hate crimes. It’s evidence that of hate crimes pushed for attention by the victims and/or media that the majority of that subset are hoaxes. As a general rule, people’s first instinct upon being the victim of an actual crime is not to blare that fact to all and sundry, and if media is repeating a fact over and over it’s because they find doing so advantageous to their agenda. This means they will be less inclined to scrutinize the claim in question.

          2. NToJ
            October.18.2019 at 5:14 pm

            “Please give us links to the ten worst actual right wing hate crimes you know of, in the US, since Trump’s election.”

            The FBI reported 7,175 hate crime incidents in 2017. Are you going to link to 14,000+ fakes?

      2. Sarcastr0
        October.16.2019 at 10:20 am

        Many examples’ ruling the day is the essence of confirmation bias.

        I can think of many actual examples of racist expression. But I recognize the urge to generalize based on those examples as not one grounded in truth.

        1. David Bremer
          October.16.2019 at 2:36 pm

          Sure, but as of yet, I haven’t seen anybody providing evidence of actual hate crimes. Certainly not of the type alleged.

          For example, here in Minnesota, I can think of three different colleges that have had similar incidents reported. All were hoaxes. I can also think of one hate crime (some guys through an explosive device through the window of a mosque). The real attack involved violence, and there were no symbols attached. The hoaxes occurred on liberal campuses and, in at least two instances, were done by people with an agenda to push. Each of those also involved graffiti or postings similar to what’s reported here.

          Given that, you can understand the skepticism.

          1. Sarcastr0
            October.16.2019 at 4:06 pm

            as of yet, I haven’t seen anybody providing evidence of actual hate crimes

            You think there are no hate crimes, only hoaxes?

            Your second paragraph is again confirmation bias exemplified. You wouldn’t remember or credit actual hate crimes. Or maybe given your circles you wouldn’t hear of them. Regardless, you pay more attention to the examples that prove your narrative. That’s how the human mind works.

            1. Slocum
              October.16.2019 at 4:31 pm

              “You think there are no hate crimes, only hoaxes?”

              He didn’t say that — he said that this particular type of incident (racist messages/symbols posted anonymously on liberal university campuses) have routinely turned out to be hoaxes. In fact, I’m having a hard time thinking of a single incident of this type that turned out to be genuine. Do you have any examples?

              1. Sarcastr0
                October.16.2019 at 6:02 pm

                I quoted what he said. It’s not what you say he said.

                1. David Bremer
                  October.17.2019 at 9:06 am

                  But you didn’t read it, because the second part of the paragraph identifies a hate crime, yet you respond to the part you quoted by asking “You think there are no hate crimes, only hoaxes?”

                  Obviously, I don’t, since I talked about one in the very paragraph you quoted. But the actual hate crimes have generally involved actual violence and have not used hate symbols. The ones that occur at college campuses and consist of graffiti have all been hoaxes.

                  1. James Pollock
                    October.17.2019 at 7:57 pm

                    Yes, I agree. Once you exclude all the non-hoax hate crimes, all the ones that are left are hoaxes.

                  2. Sarcastr0
                    October.18.2019 at 5:35 am

                    The ones that occur at college campuses and consist of graffiti have all been hoaxes.

                    Forgive me if I don’t believe your bare assertion unless you bring statistics.

            2. I Callahan
              October.16.2019 at 4:35 pm

              You think there are hate crimes, but can’t even come up with an example of a real one?

              Which argument is more based on evidence – David’s who came up with actual hoax examples, or yours, where you assume real racial incidents happen but don’t bother to point to any?

              Nowhere in this thread, as of yet, has anyone come up with a real life example of an honest to goodness racial incident that WASN’T a hoax.

              1. Sarcastr0
                October.16.2019 at 6:01 pm

                I don’t feel like Googling, but I’ve done so before on threads like this. No lack of examples. Go check for yourself!

                1. James Pollock
                  October.16.2019 at 8:27 pm

                  No, Google is a big tech company, and we don’t trust them. OBVIOUSLY they’re in on the hoaxes, and they just don’t report them as hoaxes when you search for actual vandalism.

                  But, here’s a non-hoax hate crime. On the Portland, OR transit system, a man started ranting against Muslims, focusing on two women wearing hijabs. Several bystanders tried to intervene; so the man killed two and seriously injured another, right there on the train.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Portland_train_attack

                2. David Bremer
                  October.17.2019 at 9:07 am

                  And here’s another. But you’ll notice that (a) it didn’t occur at a college campus; (b) there were no symbols involved; and (c) there was actual violence.

                  https://www.npr.org/2019/01/24/688402478/militia-members-plead-guilty-to-2017-minnesota-mosque-bombing

    3. Sigivald
      October.16.2019 at 12:33 pm

      Maybe you’re right.

      We should say the default assumption, given that it’s YLS and “swastika + Trump” is a hoax, openly and outright, not slyly.

    4. Ben of Houston
      October.18.2019 at 4:36 pm

      Given how most trump supporters are more likely to shoot someone for bearing a swastika than to bear one themselves, nzai trump supporters are very rare. On the other hand, a huge number of anti-Trumpers belive that all Trump supporters are nazis. This is the most likely solution by far.

  3. NYLawyer
    October.16.2019 at 9:00 am

    I know Prof Volokh is a descriptivist on grammar, but I was hoping you were not. Unless you informed the community about a hate crime, that last sentence should be revised — maybe the nominative absolute route: “The dean having informed …” On the merits, I agree the dean should provide an update.

    1. Dilan Esper
      October.16.2019 at 10:32 am

      Why would you hope anyone would hold anything but the correct (descriptivist) position on grammar?

      It would be especially ironic to give grammar prescriptivists, otherwise known as “ignorant authoritarians who try to force their incorrect views of English on the more intelligent remainder of the population”, the floor in a post about Naziism.

      1. KevinP
        October.16.2019 at 11:23 am

        I believe that Nazism is spelled with one “i”.

        1. Dilan Esper
          October.16.2019 at 3:22 pm

          You win a bright shiny Internet today. Where would you like it delivered?

      2. bernard11
        October.16.2019 at 12:32 pm

        Regardless, the construction quoted by NYLawyer is incorrect, not because it violates some ancient rule, but because it is somewhere between unclear and plainly inaccurate.

        Having informed law school and broader communities that a hate crime took place at the law school, I find it….

        That sounds like it was Bernstein who informed the communities.

        1. Rossami
          October.16.2019 at 1:29 pm

          For someone who took that last sentence out of context, ignored the rest of the article and was down to her last two brain cells, maybe. I’m betting that pretty much everyone else could easily see the implied noun, “the dean”.

  4. Ben_
    October.16.2019 at 9:29 am

    For many people, telling a story is what matters. Finding out what actually happened isn’t a priority unless it advances the story. If the actual facts are less emotionally satisfying than the story, the facts will be denied, minimized, disregarded, and/or hidden from view.

    1. Fancylad
      October.16.2019 at 12:06 pm

      This.
      It’s the narrative, not the truth that matters to these people. Once they no longer have a use for a tool, they drop it.

      1. James Pollock
        October.16.2019 at 8:32 pm

        This is why there are so many people insisting “this must be a hoax” without knowing anything about the incident. This fits their narrative. If this turns out to be real, they’ll suddenly get really quiet about it.

  5. apedad
    October.16.2019 at 9:37 am

    One thing that crime victims have in common is that they think their case should have the highest priority for law enforcement.

    While that’s a normal response from a victim, it does not mean it actually is the highest priority for the investigation agency.

    One can assume the Yale police are prioritizing their cases to ensure the efficient use of limited assets (lab technicians, evidence custodians, etc.), and also keep track of and (hopefully) solve cases.

    Maybe non-violent (albeit disgusting), graffiti isn’t their highest priority.

    1. ipsquire
      October.16.2019 at 9:53 am

      Obviously they’re tied up with all the murders and stick-ups at Yale this semester?? FYI, Yale is a midsize college in a town near NYC called New Haven. The town crime rate is quite high, but New Haven has its own police. The college part of town has far less crime.

    2. David Bernstein
      October.16.2019 at 9:59 am

      And that’s why … Yale hasn’t released the video surveillance?

      1. apedad
        October.16.2019 at 11:32 am

        It’s quite possible the Yale police are following up on leads they developed from a review of the tape and don’t want to release it yet to prevent compromise.

        Or maybe (since they’re a small department), they’ve sent the tape to a county/state crime lab to enhance the quality.

        Or maybe they really are working on other things.

        The tape is really a minor issue – unless you believe (without any facts), there’s some cover-up.

        1. Bob from Ohio
          October.16.2019 at 11:38 am

          “Or maybe they really are working on other things.”

          Its a glorified security company [“campus police”] on a safe campus.

          They aren’t investigating murders.

          1. apedad
            October.16.2019 at 12:08 pm

            Well what’s your theory why they haven’t released the tape?

            Since I’m a retired federal agent (who conducted all kinds of investigations), I based my possibilities on the training and experiences I’ve had.

            Go ahead and enlighten us.

            1. Bob from Ohio
              October.16.2019 at 12:29 pm

              Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

              The Yale police department is what we used to call campus security, now with police powers as is the trend. They are not some elite crime fighting agency or even the FBI.

              Why can’t Yale law school get an answer from another college department? Hiding behind “its up to the police” is a red flag they are covering something embarrasing.

            2. Fancylad
              October.16.2019 at 12:33 pm

              Since I’m a retired federal agent (who conducted all kinds of investigations)”
              Yeah, and I’m a Navy Seal. Semper Fo-something!

              Just kidding, the way you’re insinuating that there’s nothing here because it no longer advances the narrative, means you’re either James Comey or John Brennan, amirite?

              1. James Pollock
                October.17.2019 at 8:41 am

                You have the crime of vandalism. A crime, yes. But… not a very serious one, absent details that would indicate something more serious, which approximately no one has suggested.

          2. Stephen Lathrop
            October.16.2019 at 5:04 pm

            Bob, I’ll bet they are all trained and officially recognized as New Haven police officers.

            How do you know the campus is safe? If it weren’t, who would say so?

            Can you imagine any edgy town/gown interactions?

        2. Fancylad
          October.16.2019 at 12:09 pm

          “The tape is really a minor issue”
          What a bullshit, handwaving statement.

          1. James Pollock
            October.16.2019 at 8:38 pm

            “What a bullshit, handwaving statement.”

            But also true.

            If it’s real, then Yale has (gasp) a vandal with a paint can! And if it’s not real, then Yale has (gasp again!) a vandal with a paint can.

            There just isn’t an interpretation of the known facts that makes this important.

        3. I Callahan
          October.16.2019 at 4:38 pm

          Look how far you have to twist yourself to believe a real racial incident occurred.

      2. Azathoth!!
        October.16.2019 at 3:11 pm

        And that’s why … Yale hasn’t released the video surveillance?

        They haven’t released the tape because it undermines the ‘hate crime’ narrative.

        They’re not talking because they want this all to go away before it blows up in the faces of the people pushing the ‘hate crime’ narrative.

      3. Sarcastr0
        October.16.2019 at 4:48 pm

        Now Prof. Bernstein is implying a hoax that Yale covered up, based entirely on assumption and police being tight-fisted with info?

        That may be correct, but this seems less like Sherlock Holmes here and more like someone with a narrative.

    3. Bob from Ohio
      October.16.2019 at 10:06 am

      The Yale police is part of the college.

      They prioritize what the college tells them to prioritize.

      The law school could find out the status with one phone call.

      1. James Pollock
        October.16.2019 at 8:40 pm

        “The law school could find out the status with one phone call.”

        Perhaps. And the reason they’d make that call is… because some busybody outsider called and asked them to?

    4. Krayt
      October.16.2019 at 12:48 pm

      Which is the bigger crime — a trivial physical crime of spray painting a sidewalk, but with “Trump is a Nazi, yay!” Or “Trump is a Nazi, boo!”?

      1. Krayt
        October.16.2019 at 12:51 pm

        We should probably amend the constitution to take government out of the business of criminalizing opinions amd speech.

  6. bernard11
    October.16.2019 at 10:14 am

    In contrast to Bernstein’s suggestions, I suspect it was one or two brainless teenagers with little in the way of an agenda.

    1. Sarcastr0
      October.16.2019 at 10:21 am

      Could be. But no need to start spinning yarns right yet.

      1. mad_kalak
        October.16.2019 at 10:33 am

        But it’s to late for that now, given the press release form the Law School in the first place. That Prof B’s point.

        1. Sarcastr0
          October.16.2019 at 10:39 am

          I read the release and saw nothing about who did it.

          And I get the temptation but no need to fill that in. No matter your narrative or statistical algorithm or or gut feeling.

          1. mad_kalak
            October.16.2019 at 11:23 am

            Regardless of your blindness to the implicit assumptions in the press release (please never think you’ll make it in a second career in literary criticism) a big deal was still made by having a press release in the first place. Why do you think they put out this press release for a bit of graffiti, even if they didn’t know who did it or why?

            Still, at bottom, the law school got into the car, started the engine, rev’d it, and now doesn’t want to put into park or drive….Bernstein is asking pointedly why.

            1. James Pollock
              October.16.2019 at 8:42 pm

              “Why do you think they put out this press release for a bit of graffiti”

              because A) it happened, and B) people started asking questions about it, and C) they got tired of answering people’s questions.

          2. iowantwo
            October.16.2019 at 12:37 pm

            That you feel no need to fill in the blanks is of no concern.
            The narrative is set. Knuckle dragging Nazis, anti semite, bigots, are intimidating Jews. Thats the way the college wants it.

            The historical findings of most all of these incidents are phony will not be allowed.

            1. Sarcastr0
              October.16.2019 at 4:50 pm

              I saw no narrative in the press release. Only in your own persecution complex.

          3. Jerry B.
            October.16.2019 at 1:57 pm

            Well, the part of the press release describing the graffiti as “anti-Semitic” might cause people to form an opinion.

            1. James Pollock
              October.16.2019 at 8:45 pm

              Yeah, they really went out on a limb, suggesting that a swastika is considered an “anti-semitic” symbol.

      2. bernard11
        October.16.2019 at 12:32 pm

        I’m not spinning yarns, just guessing.

        1. Sarcastr0
          October.16.2019 at 4:52 pm

          I would point you to the exemplar of the righties narritivism below our comments as to the dangers of allowing yourself to guess.

          Not that you or I will become the paranoid losers they are, of course. That takes a lifetime of talk radio.

  7. David Nieporent
    October.16.2019 at 10:37 am

    I don’t really understand why it matters whether it was a “hoax” or not. Even if it was sincere, it’s graffiti. Someone scribbled something on the ground. Why would anybody get worked up about this? Nobody rationally thinks there are hordes of Nazis rampaging through New Haven.

    Anyone who would be a target of theoretical Nazis in New Haven is a trillion times¹ more likely to be mugged for his/her wallet than attacked by Nazis.

    ¹ Approximately.

    1. David Bernstein
      October.16.2019 at 11:39 am

      We have two nutty narratives going on in the US right now. One is on the right, that liberals (and or)/Jews/members of minority groups/Democrats are plotting to “import” millions of non-whites to “replace” the white population and guarantee a progressive majority. The other is on the left, that there is a large white nationalist/racist/antisemitic minority that largely kept its for the last several decades, but now has been unleashed by Trumpism (never mind the academic study showing that intolerance has actually decreased since 2016). Going hysterical every time one sees a swastika, without considering context or undertaking investigation, is part of the latter.

      1. bernard11
        October.16.2019 at 12:39 pm

        there is a large white nationalist/racist/antisemitic minority that largely kept its for the last several decades, but now has been unleashed by Trumpism (never mind the academic study showing that intolerance has actually decreased since 2016).

        I don’t know how large it is, but it exists and is both active and violent. Whether Trump “unleashed” them or not he seems to like them well enough.

        I remember your post on the study which, IIRC, was kind of a shaky basis for your claim.

        1. KevinP
          October.16.2019 at 2:57 pm

          Whether Trump “unleashed” [a large white nationalist/racist/antisemitic minority] or not he seems to like them well enough.

          Why do you keep perpetrating hoaxes?

          The “Fine People” Hoax Funnel

          Quote:
          The press created the hoax by consistently and intentionally omitting the second half of President Trump’s comments about Charlottesville. If you only see or hear the first half of what the president said, it looks exactly like the president is calling neo-Nazis “fine people.” But in the second part of Trump’s comments, he clarified, “You had people in that group who were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of the park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”

          In other words, the president believed there were non-racists in attendance who support keeping historical monuments. To remove all doubt, the President continued with “I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally – but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay?”

          1. bernard11
            October.16.2019 at 4:21 pm

            Fine people don’t show up for rallies organized by the likes of Jason Kessler, and neo-Confederates aren’t fine people in any case.

            1. I Callahan
              October.16.2019 at 4:41 pm

              Fine people DO show up for rallies when the town fathers decide to erase history because of political correctness. So your view here is flat-out incorrect.

              1. bernard11
                October.16.2019 at 9:43 pm

                Erase history? Are you insane?

                I’ll tell you who wants to erase history. It’s the neo-Confederates who want to see Lee and the other traitors as some sort of great heroes fighting in defense of ??? By their own words it’s clear that they were fighting to maintain slavery, though many, like you, want to erase that.

                We’ve had 150 years of erasing the history of what the Confederacy, Lee, and others actually stood for. It’s time to fix that, and quit honoring them.

                1. James Pollock
                  October.17.2019 at 8:38 am

                  They want to pretend the Confederates won the war. But don’t you try “erasing history”!!!

              2. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
                October.17.2019 at 12:38 pm

                Why continue to fight for the bigots. Bigots have rights, too, but decent people — let alone fine people — are not devoted to advancing the bigots’ interests.

                Carry on, clingers. Until replacement.

              3. NToJ
                October.18.2019 at 5:18 pm

                No they don’t.

            2. David Bernstein
              October.16.2019 at 5:44 pm

              More important, an organized rally that got a great deal of prior publicity managed to attract a few hundred people. This is not a mass movement. Compare, e.g., the Nation of Islam, where Farrakhan can get 20K people to listen to him denounce whites, gays, and Jews, with minor celebrities in the audience and powerful politicians willing to chat him up. I agree that the far right has become more active and organized, but I think that’s primarily because social media makes it much easier to do so than in the days when you had to surreptitiously meet in a seedy motel conference room. It’s also increasingly engaged in violence, but it’s not clear what that means. There was a spasm of far left violence in the early 70s, but that marked the end of things, not the beginning.

              1. James Pollock
                October.16.2019 at 8:55 pm

                “This is not a mass movement.”

                They’re quite willing to use violence, so it doesn’t take very many of them to cause disturbance. Then there’s a larger circle which consists of people who won’t use violence themselves, but are only too happy to serve as apologists for the ones who do. So the Portland Max killer had no choice but to kill the people who were trying to protect a couple of teenage girls from his ranting at them. Because you have to stand up to people who try to infringe your free speech, or whatever reason was offered on AM radio this morning.

                Yes, there are some leftists willing to use violence, too. I’m not claiming otherwise. But the last mass killing by would-be leftists happened A) outside the US, and B) was largely confined to the cult members who went to Jonestown. Whereas, in Oklahoma City, they tried to start the race war going by blowing up a daycare full of kids. These are both evil acts by evil people, but they aren’t equal and opposite.

              2. bernard11
                October.16.2019 at 9:40 pm

                an organized rally that got a great deal of prior publicity managed to attract a few hundred people. This is not a mass movement.

                Whether it’s a mass movement or not, it managed to include at least one murderer. And the fact that it was “well-publicized” suggests that those who chose who attend were far from being fine people.

                As I said above, whatever the size of the movement, it is clearly both active and violent.

      2. Greg J
        October.16.2019 at 2:36 pm

        One is on the right, that liberals (and or)/Jews/members of minority groups/Democrats are plotting to “import” millions of non-whites to “replace” the white population and guarantee a progressive majority.

        Is this supposed to to a controversial claim? Why?

        We know it happened in the UK:
        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1222977/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-The-outrageous-truth-slips-Labour-cynically-plotted-transform-entire-make-Britain-telling-us.html

        We hear leftists all the time gloating about how demographic change will give the Left a “Permanent Majority”. We see the Left actively encouraging more people to come here illegally, while fighting to keep the US from blocking them from coming in, or deporting them once they do get in.

        Is there also a “right wing plot” to claim that 1 + 1 = 2?

        1. Sarcastr0
          October.16.2019 at 5:00 pm

          Replacement of whites and the Bell Curve. That’s the intellectual right these days.

    2. Fancylad
      October.16.2019 at 12:13 pm

      “Nobody rationally thinks there are hordes of Nazis rampaging through New Haven”

      Oh wow, you mustn’t have been in the US for the last four years. Never watch CNN or read the NYT? Do you live in the Antarctic or something?

      1. Sigivald
        October.16.2019 at 12:59 pm

        That’s why he said “rationally”, not “nobody thinks …”

        People do seem to think that, but they’re doing so irrationally.

      2. Sarcastr0
        October.16.2019 at 4:54 pm

        Your lack of cites is telling.

  8. CJColucci
    October.16.2019 at 11:08 am

    Who actually has the videotape now? The cops or Yale? Does anyone here know?

    1. Bob from Ohio
      October.16.2019 at 11:34 am

      Yale is the cops.

      Its a university police department.

  9. TW
    October.16.2019 at 11:12 am

    I can think of at least one legitimate reason not to release the surveillance footage – perhaps it doesn’t clearly identity the perpetrators (maybe there was a malfunction in the recording or their faces were somehow obscured) but they don’t want the perpetrators to realize that. Right now, the people who did this are probably worried about getting caught and if they see that the footage doesn’t show who they are, they’re more likely to think they got away with it. That doesn’t meant that there isn’t other evidence or an investigation but it’s a lot harder to catch them with the surveillance footage. If the perpetrators think there is a surveillance video that identifies them, one of them might feel pressure to come forward in the hopes of making a deal for a lighter punishment.

    1. CJColucci
      October.16.2019 at 12:30 pm

      Don’t go spoiling everyone’s fun like that.

    2. Greg J
      October.16.2019 at 3:13 pm

      People who are worried they’re going to get caught tend to be a lot more cautious than people who think they got away cleanly

      People who are less cautious, are more likely to get caught

      So you have that exactly backwards

      1. TW
        October.16.2019 at 5:10 pm

        You could be right – I only offered this as a possible reason why they may not be releasing the surveillance tape and it was of course purely speculation on my part. OTOH without knowing anything about the actual perpetrators, it’s difficult to say how concerned they were about getting caught and whether they even knew that they were being filmed at the time. I’m seen teenager look around to see if anyone is watching them and take off running as soon as they spot someone in view and I assume it was because they were probably doing or about to do something that they knew they shouldn’t and didn’t want to risk getting caught. It could be the vandals didn’t even know or forgot about the security cameras (never been to that campus so I have no idea how noticeable they are) and just looked around, didn’t see anyone and spray-painted and took off thinking that they were in the clear. Now that they know they might have been recorded in the act, it could make them nervous and thinking about whether it’s better to take their lumps now in the hopes of getting off lighter than if they make the police work harder for it. But again, this is just pure speculation at this point.

        1. James Pollock
          October.16.2019 at 9:16 pm

          It’s one thing to spin out theories based on the known facts. You can get some interesting stories that way.

          It’s another thing to pretend the stories are real. This is true for people concerned about the Nazi-vandals, and people concerned about the Nazi-hoax-vandals. You (unless you are the vandal) don’t know which one it is, and there’s a real possibility that it’s neither one.

  10. ReaderY
    October.16.2019 at 11:18 am

    I suspect this is little more than “Trump is a Nazi,” probably not such a rare opinion at a place like Yale.

    I don’t think we are all absolutely obligated to all collectively shit in our collective pants every time a symbol like this appears.

    1. ReaderY
      October.16.2019 at 11:22 am

      I understand it’s graffiti, it was spray-painted, not chalked, it’s damage to property. It’s an offense. Yale has every right to protect its property. And the message is in extremely poor taste. But I nonetheless don’t think we are obligated to treat the person the same as if he or she had planned a mass shooting.

      1. Sigivald
        October.16.2019 at 1:02 pm

        Hell, we’re not obligated to treat them like that even if they were actually a neo-Nazi.

        Because being a shitbag graffiti-er is still a minor property crime, not, uh, mass murder.

        (And contra assertions widely made, “being a POS neo-Nazi asswipe” does not magically, automatically, or even probabilistically connect one to being a mass murderer.

        This can be proven by … well, counting the number of them that are mass murderers, compared to the claims about how many there are [and, hell, the undeniable existence of “white power” prison gangs, members of which regularly … leave prison].

        They’re wastes of carbon, but they’re just … not ravening murderers, demonstrably.)

        1. James Pollock
          October.16.2019 at 9:19 pm

          “They’re wastes of carbon, but they’re just … not ravening murderers, demonstrably”

          Get enough of them together in one place, though, and things can change. Yes, sometimes “one” is enough of them in once place, sometimes it takes way, way more. Trying to make sure their gathering place is, uh, somewhere else is still a good idea.

  11. BLNelson
    October.16.2019 at 11:53 am

    Hmmm. Can’t you think of any reason the video would not have been splashed all over the place?

    1. Eddy
      October.16.2019 at 1:39 pm

      Because anyone who watches the video gets stalked by a creepy ghost with hair over her face?

      1. Eddy
        October.16.2019 at 2:09 pm

        I mean, her hair pulled over her face, not facial hair, that would be silly, she’s a ghost, not a werewolf.

  12. Eddy
    October.16.2019 at 1:06 pm

    “Organizations in the Yale community, such as the Law School’s Office of Student Affairs and the Joseph Slifka Center for Jewish Life, responded to the incident on Monday, condemning the action and offering support to students.”

    Offering support? To students who I suppose have learned for the first time that there are people capable of scribbling swastikas in public places?

    Yale Law is what the Rev calls one of our great liberal-libertarian institutions of higher learning. When these students graduate, the public will expect them to be able to handle cases, if necessary, involving very triggering facts – maybe disfigurement and death. I don’t know how many of them will deign to do criminal cases, but they should at least be prepared to look at and analyze graphic crime-scene pictures and so forth.

    You’re saying that the brightest students, at one of our finest institutions, will freak out so much over graffiti that they need counseling?

    1. Eddy
      October.16.2019 at 1:07 pm

      Or am I misunderstanding the word “support”?

      1. Mr. Hook
        October.16.2019 at 2:37 pm

        It’s not about coddled students so much as university PR. The corporate nature of modern universities means that students are now treated as clients (internal documents will even call them that). So whenever something unpleasant occurs, serious or not, universities go out of their way to demonstrate that they’re supporting client needs. The vast majority of students won’t seek out any kind support, but the school is covering its PR butt.

        1. Eddy
          October.16.2019 at 3:47 pm

          There’s another PR consideration, and that’s whether they want to portray their students as easily “triggered,” which would feed into what the administrators probably see as a malicious right-wing narrative about coddled snowflakes.

          1. Eddy
            October.16.2019 at 3:54 pm

            On the plus side, it shows actual nazis that if they want attention, all they need to do is commit petty vandalism, they don’t have to go off and commit some awful hate crime.

          2. James Pollock
            October.16.2019 at 9:23 pm

            When choosing whether to be anti-hate or pro-hate, most people don’t have to think about how they’re going to answer

            The tradeoff is simple to calculate:

            1) we can say we take it seriously, and offer “support” to people who don’t need it. This costs us nothing, and makes us look like decent people who just want to help.

            2) we can lead off by saying it’s probably a hoax, thereby incurring at least irritation, if not more, from the target demographic. This earns us the respect and support of Eddy, which YLS desires because… uh… we’ll fill this part out later.

            1. Eddy
              October.16.2019 at 9:41 pm

              Would you mind quoting the part where I said it was “probably a hoax”, as opposed to not knowing? Thanks in advance.

              1. Eddy
                October.16.2019 at 9:53 pm

                You know what “decent people” do? When they make a misstatement, the issue a retraction and an apology.

                Therefore, I do not expect a retraction and apology from you for your misstatement.

                1. James Pollock
                  October.17.2019 at 11:32 am

                  ” I do not expect a retraction and apology from you for your misstatement.”

                  I’ll keep that in mind if I ever make a misstatement.

                  1. Eddy
                    October.17.2019 at 12:16 pm

                    Yale Law school would earn your respect and support by endorsing communism.

                    But I’m not saying you support communism!

                    1. Eddy
                      October.17.2019 at 2:25 pm

                      I notice below that, for someone who resents people drawing logical inferences from their actual words, you sure are willing to draw broad and irrational inferences from other people’s words.

                    2. James Pollock
                      October.17.2019 at 7:52 pm

                      Broad, irrational, and accurate.

                    3. Eddy
                      October.18.2019 at 6:58 pm

                      Yes, I agree you’re irrational.

              2. James Pollock
                October.17.2019 at 11:31 am

                “Would you mind quoting the part where I said it was “probably a hoax””

                Before I get to that, would you mind pointing out where I said you said it was “probably a hoax”?

                1. Eddy
                  October.17.2019 at 12:02 pm

                  Other than claiming Yale Law School would earn my respect by calling it a hoax?

                  “we can lead off by saying it’s probably a hoax, thereby incurring at least irritation, if not more, from the target demographic. This earns us the respect and support of Eddy”

                  You’re an unreliable source about what you yourself said, how can you be trusted on any other subject?

                  1. James Pollock
                    October.17.2019 at 2:12 pm

                    So, you can’t quote me saying what you claim I said, and that’s somehow my fault? That’s the sum total of your capacity for argument?

                    1. Eddy
                      October.17.2019 at 5:03 pm

                      You are a drooling idiot.

                    2. Eddy
                      October.17.2019 at 5:05 pm

                      You talk about what I “implied” without quoting a single word I said, yet you pretend that someone can “respect and support” an accusation without believing it.

                      You have to work really hard to be this stupid.

                    3. Eddy
                      October.17.2019 at 5:07 pm

                      Anyway, it’s good to know that, under your worldview, it’s possible to earn your respect and support by making what you believe to be a false or unproven allegation.

                    4. James Pollock
                      October.17.2019 at 7:51 pm

                      “You are a drooling idiot.”

                      Then you lost an argument to a drooling idiot. Bummer for you.

                  2. James Pollock
                    October.17.2019 at 2:14 pm

                    “Other than claiming Yale Law School would earn my respect by calling it a hoax?”

                    You kind of suggested that you lacked respect for them (more correctly for their student body) because they didn’t call it a hoax, but rather rushed to offer support to the “victims”. If that’s not the message you intended to convey, you need to work on your delivery.

                    1. Eddy
                      October.17.2019 at 2:18 pm

                      I’m not calling you a mendacious little twit, but anyone who called you a mendacious little twit would have my respect and support.

                    2. James Pollock
                      October.17.2019 at 7:49 pm

                      Because you ARE a mendacious twit.

                    3. Eddy
                      October.18.2019 at 7:00 pm

                      “You kind of suggested that you lacked respect for them (more correctly for their student body) because they didn’t call it a hoax, but rather rushed to offer support to the “victims”. ”

                      You misrepresented what I said, and I correctly represented what you said.

                    4. Eddy
                      October.18.2019 at 7:01 pm

                      I repeat, I didn’t call you a mendacious twit, I merely said that anyone who called you a mendacious twit would have my respect and support.

                      Can’t you see the difference?

                      I can’t either.

                    5. James Pollock
                      October.18.2019 at 9:38 pm

                      “I repeat, I didn’t call you a mendacious twit”

                      I repeat: You ARE a mendacious twit, so I don’t have any reason to care what you do (or do not) call me.

                    6. Eddy
                      October.19.2019 at 12:41 am

                      The point soared over your head, of course.

                      In any event, yo momma is ugly.

  13. James Pollock
    October.16.2019 at 1:21 pm

    “Anyone who has been following such ‘Trump plus swastika in very liberal environments’ incidents would immediately suspect one of two things: (1) a hoax; or, perhaps more likely (2) the vandal(s) in question weren’t trying to say ‘I support Trump and he’s a Nazi,’ but rather ‘I hate Trump because he’s a Nazi.'”

    Of course, there’s also the possibility that you have not one, but two (competing) vandals at work. So, you might have someone who put “Trump” on, and then somebody added a swastika, or vice versa.
    Mr. Trump is NOT a Nazi. Nazis were effective and efficient. Mr. Trump lacks these qualities. He wishes he could be a dictator, but has no idea how to make this into reality.

    1. wreckinball
      October.16.2019 at 8:38 pm

      Or you could have just voted hoax without all of the other spurious BS

      1. James Pollock
        October.16.2019 at 9:24 pm

        Huh? wut?

    2. NOYB2
      October.17.2019 at 2:39 am

      Trump is not a Nazi for the simple reason that Nazis were anti-capitalist collectivists, pretty much the complete opposite of Trump.

  14. Jimmy the Dane
    October.16.2019 at 6:41 pm

    We all know these so-called “hate crimes” are all fake. I don’t think a single one reported has ever been confirmed since 2016. Not one.

    1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
      October.16.2019 at 8:12 pm

      From the folks who knew Obama was (is) a Muslim Kenyan communist.

      Replacement of the birthers can’t occur too soon.

      1. Jimmy the Dane
        October.16.2019 at 10:27 pm

        When the mob comes for Cuckland and no one says anything is anyone, but Cuck going to be surprised?

        1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
          October.17.2019 at 2:41 am

          The mob that came for Artie Ray? A bunch of hypocritical losers?

      2. NOYB2
        October.17.2019 at 2:38 am

        Obama was simply incompetent; his actual beliefs hardly mattered.

        1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
          October.17.2019 at 2:42 am

          The lies, gullibility, and bigotry of his right-wing critics mattered enough to cost them the culture war

          1. NOYB2
            October.17.2019 at 11:03 pm

            Well, not being a “right wing critic”, I wouldn’t know.

            I just know that, after I voted for Obama, he turned out to be an incompetent blowhard, racist, and borderline fascist.

  15. QuantumBoxCat
    October.16.2019 at 7:14 pm

    Where in that story was there any claim that a “hate crime” occurred? I see a claim about an act of hate and a symbol of hate, but no statement by the law school that a hate crime had been committed. Connecticut Public Act 17-111, which modified the state’s hate crime laws, may cover the act in question, but that would entail further analysis. I see no reference by the law school that the incident constitutes a violation of that law.

    If only there was a blog where persons learned in the law and interested in educating the public, could take the known facts and analyze them in reference to potentially applicable laws. A headline: “did a hate crime occur?” Would then be followed by legal analysis of the CT hate crime laws.

  16. wreckinball
    October.16.2019 at 8:36 pm

    Hoax
    Or you can go with the dozen actual Nazis in the country sure do get around a lot.
    But maybe just maybe it’s not the end of the world
    Sensationalizing every one of these things of which most maybe all are hoaxes is getting comical

  17. Sarcastr0
    October.16.2019 at 9:24 pm

    Prof. Bernstein’s thinking that this is a hoax and that Yale is hiding that fact seems to have a lot of company in the comentariat.

    The Venn Diagram of that set and the set of those who have decided that hate crimes are all hoaxes seems to have a lot of overlap.

    A preview of a bit further down the road which you tread.

    1. Jimmy the Dane
      October.16.2019 at 10:26 pm

      But the truth is almost every single supposed so-called “hate crime” has been a hoax. It would seem to me that people who think these things actually happen are the ones who are crazy.

      1. James Pollock
        October.18.2019 at 9:36 pm

        “But the truth is almost every single supposed so-called “hate crime” has been a hoax.”

        Yes, the “so-called” hate crimes are often hoaxes. Once you exclude all the non-hoaxes, hoaxes are pretty much all that’s left.

    2. NOYB2
      October.17.2019 at 2:37 am

      Nazis were staunchly anti-capitalist collectivists with a political program that had a large overlap with Sanders and Warren. The idea that any Nazi would support a nasty capitalist like Trump is absurd.

      Anti-capitalist collectivism is the predominant ideology at Yale, but people holding those beliefs have long ago gotten rid of the swastika symbol.

      So, if we put that all together, it’s not a hoax: this was likely carried out by an actual fascist, and like actual fascists, the person hates Trump; the only thing that is mildly incongruent about it is that they likely didn’t understand that the swastika represents their own ideology, but that is a common confusion among the kind of people attending Yale as well.

      1. Stephen Lathrop
        October.17.2019 at 3:19 am

        That’s pretty clever ideology you’ve got there NOYB2. Saves you the work of learning anything. You have that in common with 20th century Fascism—at least insofar as ordinary Fascist supporters believed anything. Mostly, they just believed in their tribe and their leader.

        Have you noticed Bernstein’s assertions about how small and impotent are right wing hate groups in America today? Either Bernstein doesn’t get that tribe-and-leader bit, or he hasn’t heard about Trump’s rallies. That old-time style? Trump has it, right down to the snarling vituperation of the guy at the microphone.

        Contrary to your fantasies, there really wasn’t any ideology in Nazism. Scholars have been trying to figure it out ever since, and they all come up dry. Except that everyone understands what made it go: “Follow me, and we’ll get the people you hate.”

        1. NOYB2
          October.17.2019 at 11:14 pm

          Contrary to your fantasies, there really wasn’t any ideology in Nazism.

          In fact, fascism is a fairly well-defined ideology, closely related to socialism. Mussolini and Gentile wrote extensively about it, as did many American academics. The “it’s not really well-defined” or “it’s any movement that follows a strong leader” is a post-WWII propaganda attempt by socialists to hide the obvious, close ideological connections between socialism and fascism.

          That’s pretty clever ideology you’ve got there NOYB2.

          My parents were almost killed first by fascists, then by socialists. I experienced socialism first hand, as well as persecution and government discrimination as a homosexual.

          Saves you the work of learning anything.

          I have done plenty of work learning about the history of fascism. The real question is whether you know the history and meaning of fascism and are just trying to deny it, or whether you are really just the usual entitled, mono-lingual, ignorant, privileged American prick who can’t tell propaganda from fact. My guess is that it’s the latter.

          1. Stephen Lathrop
            October.18.2019 at 8:34 pm

            NOYB2, given Hitler’s affinity for socialists, what accounts for his maniacal anti-Bolshevism?

            Just as a general thing, history and ideology don’t work alike. If you are reading ideology, and using it to predict history, then you are doing it backward. Conversely, if you read history, and find little in it to prove any operations of ideology, no amount of avowed ideology should be taken too seriously. It’s the same principle that historians use when they read antique laws. No matter what the laws say, historians withhold judgment about what the laws mean until they read the court cases.

      2. Sarcastr0
        October.17.2019 at 4:47 am

        Nazis were targeting a subgroup first and foremost. Turns out, that’s all ya need – your economics and rigid categorization bows before tribalism.

        1. NOYB2
          October.17.2019 at 11:20 pm

          The ideologies of fascism and socialism aren’t defined by what they did once in power, it’s defined by what they promised and how they see the world.

          Both are staunchly anti-capitalist and both are collectivist. The major area where they differed is in the groups they demonize. Socialists demonize the upper and middle classes and call for collective action by the working class. Fascists demonize racial minorities and foreigners and call for collective action by the “average man”. For Nazis, the two came together because Nazis demonized Jews both based on race and based on supposed class.

          Once in power, their ideology falls by the wayside and both socialism and fascism become simply brutal totalitarian regimes; that’s because neither ideology can work, so violence is the only way for socialists and fascists to stay in power.

          1. Sarcastr0
            October.18.2019 at 5:42 am

            Plenty of interviews with Nazis who love Trump. If you want to play ‘no true Nazi’ that’s on you.

            The ideologies of fascism and socialism aren’t defined by what they did once in power, it’s defined by what they promised and how they see the world.
            What?! How they see the world is pretty well illustrated by what they did in power. Otherwise the USSR and all Communist states would be noble endeavors.

          2. Stephen Lathrop
            October.18.2019 at 8:39 pm

            NOYB2: Anti-capitalist collectivism is the predominant ideology at Yale,

            Is that what you learned when you were at Yale?

    3. QuantumBoxCat
      October.17.2019 at 1:52 pm

      These are Bernstein’s people. He writes commentary hinting that a hate crime was a hoax (even though no claim of a hate crime was made) and his readers, who already think hate crimes are hoaxes, rush to agreement that this instance is another hoax.

      In another post Bernstein will complain about how he and others like him are being excluded from academia because of their conservative views. He’s clearly a scholar devoted to rational debate and critical analysis!

      1. Sarcastr0
        October.17.2019 at 2:30 pm

        I find this kind of proud knee-jerking to be below Prof. Bernstein’s usual postings.

        I usually very much disagree with his political takes, especially on Israel, but they usually have some substance to their opinion, not just dog that doesn’t bark supposition.

      2. RestoreWesternHegemony
        October.17.2019 at 4:37 pm

        Any scholar devoted to rational debate wouldn’t believe in man-made global warming. Meaning most of academia isn’t rational.

  18. NOYB2
    October.17.2019 at 2:29 am

    Given the similarities between modern progressivism, the prevailing ideology at Yale, and 1930’s fascism, I think it’s a good bet that the vandalism was, in fact, perpetrated by a fascist, albeit a Trump-hating fascist.

    1. Sarcastr0
      October.17.2019 at 4:49 am

      So you don’t know what fascism is either. Whatever it takes to own the libs.

      Do Dems are the real racists next!

      1. NOYB2
        October.17.2019 at 11:24 pm

        So you don’t know what fascism is either.

        As a European immigrant whose parents were nearly killed by fascists and socialists and who can actually read the source documents in the original languages, I have an excellent idea of what fascism is. Obviously, most pampered, publicly-educated, privileged Americans are ignorant about it, falling for socialist propaganda on the subject.

        Do Dems are the real racists next!

        “Real” as opposed to what? Democrats categorize people by race, attribute characteristics based on race, and demand that government treat people differently based on race. I call that “racism”. What do you call it?

        1. Sarcastr0
          October.18.2019 at 5:45 am

          Yeah, my grandparents had to deal with both the Commies and the fascist anti-Commies.

          Doesn’t mean I’m going to adopt a simplistic philosophy where they are the same, and use populism to dismiss anyone who says differently.

          Nice to see you hitting all the reductive right-wing talking points. Saves brain power, I suppose.

  19. Sarcastr0
    October.17.2019 at 4:48 am

    To all those insisting all hate crimes are hoaxes. The DoJ disagrees.

    https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/hate-crimes-case-examples

    1. RestoreWesternHegemony
      October.17.2019 at 10:24 am

      The same DOJ that aggressively pursues “violations of federal law” like telling a mentally ill boy he can’t use the girls’ bathroom?

      Or the same DOJ that “aggressively enforces the Fair Housing Act” by telling a landlord he has to rent to Shaniqua and her seven illegitimate, 85 IQ children?

      1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
        October.17.2019 at 12:47 pm

        “Or the same DOJ that “aggressively enforces the Fair Housing Act” by telling a landlord he has to rent to Shaniqua and her seven illegitimate, 85 IQ children?”

        The proprietor warns against use of the term “sl*ck-j*w” (in the context of conservatives), but I have a hunch this comment will be deemed unworthy of note by the Volokh Conspiracy Board of Censorship.

        This is part of an attempt to develop a reliable sense of the censorship standards applied by that Board of Censorship.

      2. NToJ
        October.18.2019 at 5:22 pm

        “The same DOJ that…”

        is led by the President. That one.

  20. RestoreWesternHegemony
    October.17.2019 at 10:22 am

    Every single one of these ends up being hoaxes. Every. One.

  21. CJColucci
    October.18.2019 at 11:04 am

    A few weeks ago, I made the mistake on another blog of getting involved in a deranged comment thread over how Jeffrey Epstein’s death was a murder rather than a suicide. The reasoning was eerily similar to the reasoning supporting the “hoax” theory here, and one of the linchpins was: “Why don’t they release the videotape?” Several people wasted time pointing out that tapes are not routinely released in a pending investigation unless there is reason to believe that someone among the general public will be able to make more of it than the investigators can — for example, a clear face shot of a perpetrator previously unknown to the criminal justice system but possibly recognizable to some currently unidentifiable person.

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Today in Supreme Court History

Today in Supreme Court History: October 16, 1898

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10/16/1898: Justice William O. Douglas's birthday.

Justice William O. Douglas

Josh Blackman is a constitutional law professor at the South Texas College of Law Houston, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute, and the President of the Harlan Institute. Follow him @JoshMBlackman.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Noscitur a sociis
    October.16.2019 at 8:54 am

    Douglas was probably not the worst jurist to serve on the court, not the worst human being, but impressively high on both scales.

    1. Dilan Esper
      October.16.2019 at 10:40 am

      I mean, results do matter, so there’s no way you can put him over some of the post-Civil War types who neutered the Reconstruction Amendments and such.

      But in terms of legal reasoning, he was as bad as it gets. He just didn’t care. You can read Griswold 100 times and you can’t divine a sensible legal doctrine from it. He made ridiculous pronouncements like that our institutions presuppose the existence of a Supreme Being. His First Amendment jurisprudence consisted of pretending the balancing of competing interests that make free speech cases so difficult didn’t exist. He tried to rule the Vietnam War unconstitutional, but joined the Korematsu majority.

      He was just pretty damned bad at his job, which is why he really has had almost no influence on the law.

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Has China opened a quantum hype lead over the US?

Episode 282 of the Cyberlaw Podcast

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 Our interview is with Sultan Meghji, CEO of Neocova. We cover the large Chinese investment in quantum technology and what it means for the United States. It's possible that Chinese physicists are just better than American physicists at extracting funding from their government by hyping their science. Indeed, it looks as though some quantum tech, such as the use of entangled particles to identify eavesdropping, may turn out to have dubious military value. But not all. Sultan thinks the threat of special purpose quantum computing to break encryption poses a real, near-term threat to US financial institutions' security.

In the News Roundup, we cover the new California Consumer Privacy Act regulations, which devote a surprising amount of their 24 pages to fixing problems caused by the Act's feel-good promise that consumers can access and delete the information companies have on them.

Speaking of feel-good laws that are full of liability land mines, the Supreme Court has let stand a Ninth Circuit ruling that allows blind people to sue under the Americans with Disabilities Act if websites don't accommodate their needs. Nick Weaver and I explore a few of the harder questions raised by this seemingly simple mandate (you can accommodate the blind by providing a "read aloud" option, but what about people who are blind and deaf?) and the risks of making law by retroactively imposing liability.

Weirdly for a populist administration that says it mistrusts the big social platforms for their restricting of conservative speech, the Trump trade negotiators are actually expanding Section 230 immunities for Silicon Valley that both left and right have begun to question. The expansion is buried in hard-to-amend and even-harder-to-repeal trade agreements. By way of explanation, I lay out the Realpolitik of trade deals. As if to prove my point, the US and Japan have signed a Digital Trade Agreement that has much the same provision.

Nick and I muse on the rise of Commerce Department sanctions on individual companies. In a way, such sanctions are a less harsh alternative to OFAC sanctions, which include property seizures, but they are also like antibiotics—they either destroy the target or help it develop better resistance for the future.

Does TLS stand for "Tough Luck, Sucker?" That's the message of a new and clever form of malware that has been, softly attributed to the Russian FSB.

Apple, having banned, and then unbanned, an app that locates police activity in Hong Kong, has now re-banned it. Tim Cook offers an explanation for the latest move that triggers Nick's bovine excrement detection system. In a Final Four of Hypocritical Surrender to the PRC, LeBron James and the NBA give ESPN a run for its money. South Park fails to qualify.

Matthew Heiman and I discuss India's effort to create a national facial recognition system. Naturally BuzzFeed thinks it's Evil. Not enough people of color in the training set, apparently, or perhaps it's too many. Or Modi is too much like Trump. Or some damn thing. Look, it's Evil, okay? So shut up and leave BuzzFeed alone.

Nick and I consider DHS's request for the power to subpoena ISPs to identify owners of compromised systems. I critique Herb Lin's suggestion that the ISPs can solve the problem without giving data to DHS.

As Matthew notes, it was just last month that the French government gave the world a stiff-necked little lecture on respecting sovereignty in cyberspace. So why are French police helping reprogram computers in Latin America? Because it's different when the French are doing it than when it's done to them, I surmise.

A recent "good guy with a keyboard" story offers me one more chance to tout my views on hacking back.  I ask why someone who's rescued hundreds of victims from ransomware should have to worry for one minute about being prosecuted for compromising (again) the already compromised C2 machines that apparently held the keys.

Matthew and I try to simplify a complex ruling from two FISA courts. Among the takeaways: The FBI has been running a lot of searches against 702 databases (3.1 million a year!), which greatly complicates its compliance program, and the FISA courts are overusing the 4th amendment, which in FISA minimization cases is like trying to do brain surgery with a chainsaw.

Argh! That embarrassing Bloomberg Supermicro story is back. Sort of. Wired has shown that something like it could really be done. Which, Nick points out, we already knew.

I give a shoutout to Jennifer Daskal and Peter Swire for their useful overview of the UK-US CLOUD Act, but I wonder if the agreement's mutual "no targeting of the other country's nationals" assurances are a scalable solution.

Finally, Matthew reviews the second volume of the SSCI report on its investigation into Russian election interference. The TL;DR? The Russians did what you think they did. The closest thing to a surprise? After starting out just trying to hurt Hillary, by the end the Russians seem to have been trying to help Trump too.

Download the 282nd Episode (mp3).

You can subscribe to The Cyberlaw Podcast using iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, Pocket Casts, or our RSS feed!

As always, The Cyberlaw Podcast is open to feedback. Be sure to engage with @stewartbaker on Twitter. Send your questions, comments, and suggestions for topics or interviewees to CyberlawPodcast@steptoe.com. Remember: If your suggested guest appears on the show, we will send you a highly coveted Cyberlaw Podcast mug!

The views expressed in this podcast are those of the speakers and do not reflect the opinions of the firm.

Stewart Baker is a partner at Steptoe & Johnson LLP.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. apedad
    October.16.2019 at 5:46 am

    “It’s possible that Chinese physicists are just better than American physicists at extracting funding from their government by hyping their science.”

    I wouldn’t doubt this since we have mouth-breathers on the right downgrading education by pushing home schooling, religious schooling, and reducing funds for public schools and universities.

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Who Is, and Is Not, On the Demand Justice #SCOTUS (Not-So) Shortlist?

Omitting all "partners at corporate law firms" excludes most judges from Hillary Clinton's hypothetical shortlist

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Demand Justice has released a "shortlist of possible [Supreme Court[] nominees in the next Democratic administration." The group selected 32 "brilliant lawyers who have spent their careers fighting for progressive values and represent the diversity of our nation."

Who was selected? The nominees generally fall into 5 broad categories:

  • Academics: Michelle Alexander (Union Theological Seminary),  James Forman, Jr. (Yale), Pamela Karlan (Stanford), M. Elizabeth Magill (Virginia), Melissa Murray (NYU), Bryan Stevenson (NYU), Zephyr Teachout (Fordham), Timothy Wu (Columbia),
  • Progressive Litigators: Brigitte Amiri (ACLU), Nicole Berner (GC SEIU), Deepak Gupta (Gupta Wessler), Dale Ho (ACLU), Sherrilyn Ifill (NAACP LDF), Shannon Minter (National Center for Lesbian Rights), Nina Perales (MALDEF), Thomas A. Saenz (MALDEF), Cecillia Wang (ACLU),
  • Current/Former Government Officers: Xavier Becerra (California AG), Sharon Block (one of the three NLRB appointments at issue in Noel Canning), Vanita Gupta (Former Obama DOJ), Lawrence Krasner (Philadelphia DA), Catharine Lhamon (U.S. Commission on Civil Rights), Katie Porter (House of Representatives), Jenny Yang (Former EEOC Chair)
  • Federal Judges: Richard F. Boulware (D. Nev.), Jane Kelly (8th Circuit), Cornelia Pillard (D.C. Circuit), Carlton Reeves (S.D. Miss.)
  • State Judges: Mariano-Florentino Cuéllar (California Supreme Court), Anita Earls (North Carolina Supreme Court), Leondra Kruger (California Supreme Court), Goodwin Liu (California Supreme Court),

Who didn't make the cut? We can speculate. In July 2016, the Hill published a potential shortlist from a Clinton administration. Of these 11 names, only three made it onto the Demand Justice List: Judge Jane Kelly (8th Cir.), Justice Goodwin Liu (California Supreme Court), and Justice Mariano-Florentino Cuéllar (California Supreme Court). Eight names were left off the Demand Justice list:

  1. Chief Judge Merrick Garland (D.C. Cir.)
  2. Judge Sri Srinivasan (D.C. Cir.)
  3. Judge Paul Watford (9th Cir.)
  4. Judge Jacqueline Nguyen (9th Cir.)
  5. Judge Lucy H. Koh (N.D. Cal.)
  6. Judge Patricia Millett (D.C. Cir.)
  7. Senator Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.)
  8. Senator Cory Booker (D.-N.J.)

Garland's re-nomination was never a serious option. And it isn't clear that Demand Justice considered elected officials, such as Klobuchar and Booker. But what about the other Obama appointees? The not-so-shortlist excluded many possible nominees-by design. Demand Justice explains:

None of the lawyers on our list are corporate lawyers, in keeping with our call for the next president to avoid nominating any more lawyers who have been partners at corporate law firms or in-house counsel at large corporations. Instead, our list boasts a wide range of former public defenders, public interest lawyers, academics, and plaintiff's lawyers.

Judges Paul Watford, Sri Srinivasan, Jacqueline Nguyen, Lucy H. Koh, and Patricia Millett all worked in private practice. Those careers, apparently, rendered them ineligible for the Supreme Court. Also excluded is Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson (D.D.C), whom Tom Goldstein tapped to replace Justice Scalia. She worked in Big Law.

Who else would not make the list? Justice Sotomayor was a partner at Pavia & Harcourt. She would have been out. Justice Kagan briefly served as an associate at Williams & Connolly. Would she have made the cut?

Ultimately, I welcome these lists. They provide the public with insights into the type of jurists an administration would consider. Though, it's difficult to know how much weight to put on Demand Justice's roster. Unlike President Trump's original list, the current list was not released–or even endorsed–by any campaigns.

Josh Blackman is a constitutional law professor at the South Texas College of Law Houston, an adjunct scholar at the Cato Institute, and the President of the Harlan Institute. Follow him @JoshMBlackman.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Jerry B.
    October.15.2019 at 9:29 am

    Why are they publishing this hit list? Trump and the Republithugs will have all these folks killed or doxed into uselessness, just like they’ll do to the Ukraine whistleblower, if they ever find out who that is.

    1. Bruce Hayden
      October.15.2019 at 9:34 am

      What Ukrainian “whistleblower”!

    2. KevinP
      October.15.2019 at 12:40 pm

      Is this the “whistleblower” who is a Joe Biden supporter and wants to testify anonymously about matters that he has no first hand knowledge of, and just heard about through gossip?

      That whistleblower?

    3. Sarcastr0
      October.15.2019 at 1:36 pm

      I don’t love the melodrama of your comment, but I do love the subsequent posts proving you correct.

      1. Paladin_44
        October.15.2019 at 8:58 pm

        ????????

        1. Paladin_44
          October.15.2019 at 8:58 pm

          Supposed to ROFL emojis

  2. Bruce Hayden
    October.15.2019 at 9:34 am

    I think that they have a problem here. Top law school grads seem mostly either to go into academia or join big corporate firms. Academics often write controversial articles, that may adversely affect their confirmability. Then, there is the problem, that has surfaced with the candidacy of Camela Harris that a large percentage of government lawyers were prosecutors at some point, or, like her, top prosecutors, who inevitably have jailed POC, likely out of proportion to their percentage of the population (because POC are typically more likely to break laws). Besides, former prosecutors almost invariably take their preference towards and trust of LEOs onto the bench. Public defenders often come from the bottoms of their law school classes. In the end, I suspect that these constraints would greatly reduce the quality of acceptable judicial candidates.

    Of course, then the question arises whether this is a bug or a feature. Is the real goal to reduce the competence of the Judiciary, in order to increase the acceptance of progressive policies that would be more likely rejected by a brighter and better qualified Judiciary.

    1. LawTalkingGuy
      October.15.2019 at 11:38 am

      “Public defenders often come from the bottoms of their law school classes” (citation needed)

  3. Bob from Ohio
    October.15.2019 at 10:01 am

    Snort. “DemandJustice is Brian Fallon’s outfit.

    “In 2016, Fallon served as the National Press Secretary for Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. ”

    Anyone from Wisconsin on it?

  4. mad_kalak
    October.15.2019 at 10:18 am

    I may as well be the first to say it – I thought there were no Democrat or Republican judges, just “judges”?

    Still, I am also glad they put out these lists, and it helps us to not pretend.

    1. bernard11
      October.15.2019 at 11:35 am

      I thought there were no Democrat or Republican judges, just “judges”

      Did you? I didn’t.

      1. mad_kalak
        October.15.2019 at 1:00 pm

        Why the snark? I was playing off the comments of Chief Justice Roberts, who said that there were no Obama judges (after President’s Trump’s complaint of bias) and that there were just judges.

        1. bernard11
          October.15.2019 at 1:04 pm

          Not intended as snark, sorry.

          I’m familiar with Roberts’ comment. I sort of assumed you didn’t agree with it any more than I do.

          Of course there are many cases – probably the vast majority – that have no political salience, so the judge’s political views are irrelevant.

          1. mad_kalak
            October.15.2019 at 2:03 pm

            Thanks!

            I agree, the vast majority of cases the judge’s political viewpoints are mostly irrelevant. However, I would add that when it is not irrelevant, it makes a big difference one way or another.

  5. Krayt
    October.15.2019 at 10:39 am

    32 “brilliant lawyers who have spent their careers fighting for progressive values and represent the diversity of our nation.”

    This is the description of a politician’s job, not the job of a Supreme Court justice, who is to prevent governmemt from taking on new powers at its whim, sans constitutional amendment.

  6. Dilan Esper
    October.15.2019 at 12:04 pm

    Very few straight white males listed. Which, on the one hand, I support- we need a more diverse bench. On the other hand, that may connect to OP’s point about big firm law practice. A lot of liberal white male lawyers go cash in rather than going to work in public interest law.

    1. mad_kalak
      October.15.2019 at 12:39 pm

      We need more wise latinas, amiright?

      1. LawTalkingGuy
        October.15.2019 at 12:58 pm

        Maybe we could just try to not have two white male children of beltway insiders who literally went to the same private high school on the Court.

        1. mad_kalak
          October.15.2019 at 1:02 pm

          Agreed, and to your comment before, lets have some non-ivy leaguers too with more diverse work experience. I vote for Eugene Volokh regardless.

          1. LawTalkingGuy
            October.15.2019 at 1:30 pm

            We only have 2.5 ivies represented. (Ginsburg was only at Columbia for a year IIRC) The bench would suddenly be more diverse if there were a Penn grad. Or a Stanford grad. (I know its not an ivy, but it’s as prestigious if not more than all but Harvard and Yale for law.) While there are only nine slots there could still be more than 2-3 ivies represented. There are 11 more schools in the T-14. It could be more diverse even in terms of its elite schools.

        2. Bob from Ohio
          October.15.2019 at 1:30 pm

          “white male ”

          Why does their race and sex matter to you?

          Your complaint I think is they are “beltway insiders who literally went to the same private high school”, hence share to close of an outlook.

          If they were black female children of “beltway insiders who literally went to the same private high school” that would not bother you?

          Focusing on race and sex is racist and sexist.

          1. LawTalkingGuy
            October.15.2019 at 1:40 pm

            Suppose you were part an alien anthropological team studying America, and you were looking at their dispute resolution procedures. You find out the demographics of every person who has served on the Court. Then you looked at the demographics of the society that Court serves. What would you conclude about that society?

            1. Armchair Lawyer
              October.15.2019 at 8:19 pm

              It’s a historically male dominant society that has become more co-equal between the sexes since chemical birth control has become widely available.

            2. RestoreWesternHegemony
              October.16.2019 at 6:44 am

              It’s this mentality that confirms my long-held feeling that non-whites are largely cultural outsiders in America, and always will be. They are almost always disaffected and angry. Not a good recipe.

              1. Brett Bellmore
                October.17.2019 at 8:11 am

                I don’t think non-whites are always disaffected and angry; I know enough of them, and that hasn’t been my experience.

                Now, the non-whites who climb to positions of power within the left? Yeah, absolutely. But the whites next to them are disaffected and angry, too; It isn’t their skin color, it’s that they’re left-wingers.

                If you’re pushing socialism in a prosperous capitalistic nation, OF COURSE you’re going to be disaffected and angry. How could you not be?

          2. LawTalkingGuy
            October.15.2019 at 1:56 pm

            To answer your question more directly, it would still be weird, but much less bothersome. Pretending that race and sex don’t have an affect on outlook is absurd.

            1. LawTalkingGuy
              October.15.2019 at 1:57 pm

              Sorry. “Effect.”

            2. Bob from Ohio
              October.15.2019 at 2:13 pm

              So, if kavanaugh and Gorsuch were daughters of black DC insiders who went to the same private school, its ok with you?

              1. LawTalkingGuy
                October.15.2019 at 2:57 pm

                It’s not great, assuming they also have practically the same legal/professional background (Harvard/Yale law, DC big law, stints in the executive branch). It’s still better given both the current and historical demographics of the Court and the current demographics of the country generally, and the legal profession in particular.

                1. Bob from Ohio
                  October.15.2019 at 3:19 pm

                  So, your real complaint is that they are “white males”

                  Racist and sexist thinking no matter what imaginary aliens might think.

                  1. LawTalkingGuy
                    October.15.2019 at 5:09 pm

                    Perhaps. But it also doesn’t have the convenient side effect of keeping people who look and think like me and you in power in perpetuity at the expense of everyone else. You and the Trump administration can claim you’re non-racist Non-sexist as much as you want, but when your party generally and judicial nominees in particular consistently skew heavily towards a few demographics, you’re probably not as non-racist or non-sexist as you believe you are.

                    But, you probably assume that you’re non-biased and objective on the issues of race and sex. And why wouldn’t you be? If POC and women would just ignore their entire life experiences and look at things LOGICALLY they’d see that conservative white men like you understand race and sex best.

                    You’re not of course. But you tell yourself that so you don’t feel morally compromised by bigotry or sexism and conveniently don’t have to question your own place and power in society. It’s a win win. So congrats?

                    1. Bob from Ohio
                      October.15.2019 at 5:27 pm

                      White guilt, male feminism and “white knighting”

                      Impressive trifecta.

                    2. LawTalkingGuy
                      October.15.2019 at 6:02 pm

                      Bob,

                      I don’t feel guilty. I just want power to be shared more equitably with the people it’s used against.

                      “Male feminism” tells me you’re not a serious person, so I’m not even going to engage with that.

                      You can label me a white knight if you want, but I can think of worse things to be in the world than a self-indulgent internet commentator.

                    3. KevinP
                      October.15.2019 at 6:11 pm

                      LawTalkingGuy: You haven’t heard of male feminism and male feminists?

                    4. Armchair Lawyer
                      October.15.2019 at 8:24 pm

                      It’s a nice story…. of course, the counter-point is Miguel Estrada.

                      Miguel Estrada was fillibustered by the Democrats for a circuit court judge for two reasons.

                      1. He was conservative. But more importantly…
                      2. He was Hispanic.

                      And if there’s one thing liberals hate more than white conservatives, it’s non-white conservatives.

        3. KenveeB
          October.15.2019 at 5:25 pm

          “Maybe we could just try to not have two white male children of beltway insiders who literally went to the same private high school on the Court.”

          Sotomayor and Kagan both grew up in NYC and went to Princeton. I assume you complained about their nominations for the same reason?

          1. LawTalkingGuy
            October.15.2019 at 5:54 pm

            I wasn’t necessarily thinking about it at the time, although the school thing for Kagan does jump out.

            While they did share an undergraduate education and a similar legal one they had quite different family and professional backgrounds. Kagan was a SCOTUS clerk, academic, and White House insider and solicitor general. Sotomayor by contrast was a prosecutor who actually tried cases in a state court, a civil litigation attorney at boutique firm, and a trial judge prior to being on the circuit court.

            With Kavanaugh and Gorsuch, it’s not just the school, it’s how much of their professional and family background was the same.

    2. Brett Bellmore
      October.15.2019 at 1:55 pm

      The question is, do we really need to over-represent non-straight judges? And doesn’t concentrating on ethnic and gender identity mean de-emphasizing competence?

      But, of course, competence isn’t the point of this list.

      1. LawTalkingGuy
        October.15.2019 at 2:02 pm

        No. Because there are far more qualified people than positions available. Especially for SCOTUS, which is a group of nine, nominated one at a time every few years. So it is very easy to find qualified people of diverse backgrounds if you care to look.

        1. Brett Bellmore
          October.15.2019 at 2:15 pm

          Some people look at a wealth of qualified people, and say, “Cool, we can go for hyper-qualified, and still have enough to pick from!”

          Others look at a wealth of qualified people and say, “Cool, we can pick people on the basis of something other than their qualifications, like the melanin content of their skin, or their sexual quirks!”

  7. LawTalkingGuy
    October.15.2019 at 12:05 pm

    It would be nice if there was more legal diversity on the federal appellate bench generally. People tend to forget that a lot of what SCOTUS and the appeals courts do is to provide guidance to lower courts (including state courts), practitioners, and federal agencies.

    SCOTUS could use a justice with significant criminal defense experience (actually representing clients in person, not just appointed appeals). It could use some justices with significant trial court experience generally (there is only one former trial court judge on SCOTUS right now). Maybe some justices who, God forbid, might have had any significant state court experience at any level (state courts end up construing federal statutes all the time). Maybe a patent attorney or anyone with IP experience. I know there are “biglaw” attorneys on SCOTUS, but are there any with significant bankruptcy experience?

    Although there are only nine slots, there could be a lot more legal diversity.

    1. MarkW201
      October.15.2019 at 1:29 pm

      I have always liked Jane Kelly as a Supreme Court prospect in part because of her background as a federal public defender for nearly 15 years.

      1. LawTalkingGuy
        October.15.2019 at 1:36 pm

        Me too. And it’s also important to note that someone who is appointed the federal defender for a district is chosen by the circuit court where the district is located. So it’s not just some bottom of the barrel attorney who couldn’t get another job.

        1. Bob from Ohio
          October.15.2019 at 2:09 pm

          “Kelly became an assistant federal public defender in the Northern District of Iowa, in 1994 and served as the supervising attorney in the Cedar Rapids, Iowa office, from 1999 to 2013.”

          Seems like a mid level lawyer.

          She went to yale Law. I thought you wanted more diversity?

          1. LawTalkingGuy
            October.15.2019 at 2:46 pm

            Harvard. I stand corrected, apparently she wasn’t appointed as the federal defender. The circuit-appointed defender appointed her to supervise one of the office.

            A woman who is a former public defender serving on the Eighth Circuit would be a big change in comparison to the backgrounds of the Court’s current justices, even if she went to Harvard. See, it’s not just the school, it’s everything about the nominated person. The school is part of it, of course. But again, when you end up with a situation where you nominate two justices back to back with such starkly similar demographics and legal background, I don’t think that’s good for the credibility or quality of the Court long term.

  8. Noscitur a sociis
    October.15.2019 at 2:44 pm

    Unlike President Trump’s original list, the current list was not released–or even endorsed–by any campaigns.

    So why are we even talking about it?

    1. Brett Bellmore
      October.16.2019 at 8:26 am

      Because the Democrats aren’t going to warn us about who they’d put on the Court, this is the best clue we have.

  9. rsteinmetz
    October.15.2019 at 3:49 pm

    I’m surprised there isn’t a race/ethnicity/gender identity score card out there linked in the article.
    You could also throw in a Law School scorecard as well.

  10. jubulent
    October.15.2019 at 3:53 pm

    What percentage of these judges attended Harvard or Yale law school?

  11. Eddy
    October.15.2019 at 4:05 pm

    1) Judge Dredd
    2) Judge Judy
    3) Mike Judge
    4) Judge Knott

    1. Rat on a train
      October.15.2019 at 4:43 pm

      Judge Reinhold?

      1. JimB
        October.15.2019 at 6:15 pm

        In recognition of thr playoffs, I nominate Aaron Judge.

        1. Paladin_44
          October.15.2019 at 9:04 pm

          Downer tonight!

    2. Goju
      October.15.2019 at 8:45 pm

      Judge Crater?

  12. AmosArch
    October.15.2019 at 4:06 pm

    Republicans pick judges who are conservative. Democrats pick leftists who are judges. You can deny this all you want but you can’t change the fact that for the past several decades Justices chosen by the left have been a lot more in lockstep with their overlords than the Justices chosen by the right.

    1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
      October.15.2019 at 6:29 pm

      Trump’s judicial nominees have been as white and male as the Conspiracy.

      Just the way to-be-replaced clingers like it.

      1. AmosArch
        October.15.2019 at 7:17 pm

        So is this a roundabout way of saying Jews are over-represented in high prestige areas and this needs to change?

        I think you should get to know some of the people you criticize. You might like them more than you think.

      2. Eddy
        October.15.2019 at 10:53 pm

        I get the idea that the Rev is (a) old (b) white and (c) of Southern origin. Maybe he’s hoping that if he denounces old white Southerners the SJW crocodile will eat him last?

        1. TwelveInchPianist
          October.16.2019 at 1:09 am

          He’s a self-hating goober.

  13. MonitorsMost
    October.15.2019 at 5:27 pm

    Josh Blackman: It isn’t clear that Demand Justice considered elected officials, such as Klobuchar and Booker.

    Also Josh Blackman: Current/Former Government Officers … Katie Porter (House of Representatives).

  14. MonitorsMost
    October.15.2019 at 5:39 pm

    Also, is DemandJustice the group that tried to label Eric Miller as unqualified for the Ninth Circuit because his firm often represented parties in opposed to tribal interests and tribal sovereignty? That struck me as incredibly odd because the firm, Perkins Coie, is the go-to Democratic Party firm which represents the DNC, the Democratic Leadership Council, the DSCC and DCCC.

  15. JimB
    October.15.2019 at 6:11 pm

    Hi, Josh. Many years ago I taught for one night at South Texas in place of a friend who had to be out of town. It was Torts, not ConLaw. Hope the school is doing well. Jim Brock, JD Georgetown 1960

    1. JimB
      October.15.2019 at 6:17 pm

      The guy was Bernie Reiter. Some of your buds might remember him.

  16. BrotherMovesOn
    October.15.2019 at 6:19 pm

    Whoever’s comment was ‘flagged for review’
    about 6:15, sorry, was trying to close an ad.

  17. dwshelf
    October.15.2019 at 7:44 pm

    And now the right wing list, headed by Franklin Graham, John Bolton, and Steve Bannon.

  18. TwelveInchPianist
    October.16.2019 at 1:08 am

    Oh, great, Catharine Lhamon, the gal who screwed the campus court system. We may be better off if Trump gets re-elected.

  19. DWB
    October.16.2019 at 6:25 pm

    But, but, but …. keeping Garland off was literally worse that Hitler!

    Surely he is the only name on the Democrat list, right?

  20. Smooth Like a Rhapsody
    October.17.2019 at 5:35 pm

    Mike Judge.
    But seriously: why isn’t Kamala Harris at the top of this list?
    All kinds of diversity, including the most needed diversity (career background).

  21. TangoDelta
    October.17.2019 at 9:54 pm

    “it isn’t clear that Demand Justice considered elected officials, such as Klobuchar and Booker.”
    They must have as Becerra is on the list and he was the Rep. for Cali’s 34 congressional district. Maybe they only ruled out existing congress critters and will accept those that have been reformed.

  22. fafalone
    October.18.2019 at 3:42 am

    Catherine Lhamon, ugh. Always great seeing an anti-civil rights extremist on the list. Sucks seeing the left betray its otherwise superior position on civil rights in order to completely gut the entire idea of due process when its in conflict with this ridiculous ‘social justice’ fad where the answer to unfairness in the past is to be just as unfair to the other side.

  23. ReaderY
    October.18.2019 at 9:10 am

    It appears the climate on the left has changed and more overtly political candidates are favored, to the point where a Merrick Garland would be considered a stuffed-shirt traditionalist in comparison.

    Some of the candidates appear to be roughly comparable to a Republican President nominating the general counsel for National Right to Life or similar.

Please to post comments

Free Speech

University of Louisville Students Can't Sue Escort for Exposing Prostitution in the Louisville Basketball Program

"University of Louisville [current and former] students ... asserted a claim that the publication of Katina Powell's book Breaking Cardinal Rules: Basketball and the Escort Queen resulted in a tortious diminution in the value of their University of Louisville education."

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[UPDATE, 9:46 am, 10/15/2019: I originally inadvertently omitted "students" from the headline; my apologies. (The subhead was correct all along.) The lawsuit, of course, is by some current and past University of Louisville students, not the University itself; I knew that, but as I was editing the headline I somehow dropped that word. Sorry about that, and many thanks to Ben Llaneta for the correction.]

From Hornback v. Powell, decided Friday by the Kentucky Court of Appeals:

[Plaintiffs] alleged that Appellee Katina Powell claimed that she and her daughters engaged in or agreed to engage in sexual conduct with University of Louisville men's basketball players and recruits from 2010 to 2014 in exchange for a fee of $10,000 paid by a University of Louisville employee. This claim was memorialized in a book called Breaking Cardinal Rules: Basketball and the Escort Queen…. According to the record, Powell's claims resulted in the University of Louisville self-imposing a postseason ban on its men's basketball program for the 2015-16 season….

[1. Plaintiffs] first assert that KRS Chapter 529 and KRS 446.070 may be applied in unison to sustain a cause of action against [Defendants (Powell, her coauthors, and her publisher)]. KRS Chapter 529 addresses prostitution offenses, and [Plaintiffs] direct our attention to case law holding that one of the purposes of prostitution statutes is to protect the public health and welfare. KRS 446.070 states that a "person injured by the violation of any statute may recover from the offender such damages as he sustained by reason of the violation[.]" [Plaintiffs] argue that they are "within the class intended to be protected by the statute" (meaning KRS chapter 529), that prostitution and profiting therefrom is unlawful, and that KRS 446.070 may be applied to allow their recovery from [Defendants] for damages sustained by reason of the violation….

[But Plaintiffs] have not demonstrated that Powell or others were charged with or convicted of KRS Chapter 529 violations. Even if [Plaintiffs] had provided such proof, [Plaintiffs] are at best remote and unconnected third parties who cannot reasonably be characterized as being injured or damaged by Powell's alleged unlawful conduct….

[2. Plaintiffs also cite the Kentucky "Son of Sam" law,] which states: "Every person contracting with any person or the representative or assignee of any person accused or convicted of a crime in this state, with respect to the reenactment of such crime, by way of a movie, book, magazine article, radio, or television presentation, live entertainment of any kind, or from the expression of such person's thoughts, feelings, opinions, or emotions regarding such crime, shall pay over to the Kentucky Claims Commission any moneys which would otherwise, by terms of such contract, be owing to the person so accused or convicted or his representatives."

[Plaintiffs] argue that Powell [and other defendants] conspired to profit from prostitution via the book Breaking Cardinal Rules and assert that the [Plaintiffs] are victims for purposes of this statutory provision…. [But Plaintiffs again] provide no citation to the record demonstrating that Powell was "accused or convicted of a crime in this state …." Further, KRS Chapter 346 and the plain language of KRS 49.450(1) allows for the recovery of proceeds by the Kentucky Claims Commission, not by purported victims. And finally, [Plaintiffs] cannot demonstrate that they are "victims" of [Defendants'] conduct in any meaningful sense….

[3. Plaintiffs] go on to argue … that they may prosecute a claim against [Defendants] for "tortious interference with a prospective business advantage."  …. [Plaintiffs] contend that they were prepared to offer evidence of the diminution in value of their University of Louisville degrees resulting from [Defendants'] actions, as well as the testimony of a psychologist who was expected to state that [Plaintiffs] suffered depression, anxiety, stress, and ridicule.

[Plaintiffs] allege that when wearing University of Louisville logos and attire in public places, they are approached by strangers who make rude and hateful remarks because of the events chronicled in the book…. [But] they cannot demonstrate that [Defendants] committed an intentional act of interference with respect to that business relationship, nor that [Defendants'] actions caused damages. In order to sustain a claim of tortious interference with a prospective business advantage, [Plaintiffs] must offer "evidence of a motive or intent … to interfere" with the business relationship. [Plaintiffs] cannot demonstrate that Powell's alleged sexual contact with University of Louisville basketball players and recruits was motivated by an intent to interfere with a business relationship between remote third-party students and the University. Rather, the only motivator cited by [Plaintiffs] was Powell's desire to be financially compensated. [Plaintiffs'] claim on this issue must fail as a matter of law, and we find no error.

[4. Plaintiffs also argue that Defendants'] actions constituted intentional infliction of emotional distress sufficient to sustain a claim for damages…. [But w]hile [Plaintiffs] contend that strangers ridicule them when they are wearing University of Louisville logos on their clothing, they do not allege the degree of severe emotional distress necessary to sustain the cause of action. Further, this tort "requires conduct intended to cause emotional distress in the victim."  No allegation has been forwarded, nor could it be demonstrated under the facts before us, that [Defendants] intended to cause severe emotional distress in the [Plaintiffs]….

I haven't followed the underlying controversy, but here's an excerpt from the NCAA report:

A member of the men's basketball staff arranged on-campus striptease dances and acts of prostitution for enrolled student-athletes and prospective student-athletes (prospects), some of whom were minors, on their campus visits. The conduct occurred in an institutional dormitory predominantly occupied by the men's basketball team and others affiliated with the program. For approximately three and one-half years, the former director of men's basketball operations arranged with a local escort to bring female strippers and prostitutes to Minardi Hall on nights prospects were staying there. The women performed striptease dances for the prospects and, occasionally, enrolled student-athletes. On 10 occasions, one or more of the prostitutes performed sex acts on and/or with prospects, an enrolled studentathlete and a prospect's friend. At leastseven of the prospects who engaged in sex acts were minors under age 18 at the time. On two occasions, the former director of men's basketball operations arranged, through the escort, for prostitutes to have sex at local hotels with the nonscholastic basketball coaches of two prospects being recruited by the institution.

But was the fix in? One of the judges on the panel has two degrees from Kentucky, another has one, and none have any from Louisville. Coincidence?

(Well, OK, the trial judge did go to Louisville for law school, and he ruled the same way as the appellate judges did.)

Eugene Volokh is the Gary T. Schwartz Distinguished Professor of Law at UCLA.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. James Pollock
    October.15.2019 at 9:33 am

    Should other Louisville graduates and students have a case against Plaintiffs for diminution of the value of their Louisville degrees?

    Because, of the two alleged harmers of Louisville-degree-valuation, I think they’re the worse offenders.

  2. Rossami
    October.15.2019 at 9:59 am

    I don’t think the plaintiffs suffered near the ridicule from the tangential prostitution connection that they are about to suffer from this frivolous lawsuit making the news. I’m guessing that their entirely predictable loss is also going to result in depression, anxiety and stress. Probably also some shame and loss of employment prospects (at least, among any employer smart enough to run a background check). So who do they get to sue for that? Maybe the lawyers that let them file this loser?

  3. Krayt
    October.15.2019 at 11:00 am

    Should sue because of implied confidentiality in the hooker-John agreement. No one would go to a prostitute knowing the prostitute will talk.

    1. Gasman
      October.15.2019 at 3:35 pm

      It’s the problem of the third-party payer though.
      University contracted with hookers. Simultaneously university contracts with the players. Guess who the monkey in the middle is.

    2. grb
      October.15.2019 at 6:06 pm

      Lawyers, Doctors, Priests, and …… hookers ?!?

      I didn’t know. Is there a prostitute equivalent to the Hippocratic Oath?

      1. Eddy
        October.15.2019 at 10:33 pm

        I don’t know about that last question, but at first it sounded like you were setting up a walking-into-a-bar joke.

  4. ipsquire
    October.15.2019 at 11:41 am

    The judges’ logic protects the boosters, staffers and coaches who made these events happen from similar liability (and they committed offenses of soliciting, etc.). So the Kentucky judges were helping out both the Louisville and the Kentucky programs.

  5. Eddy
    October.15.2019 at 2:39 pm

    “KRS Chapter 529”

    Wow, we’ve sure come a long way since KRS-One:

    (NSFW)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZrAYxWPN6c

  6. Eddy
    October.15.2019 at 4:01 pm

    How come we never hear of a university doing this for its engineering department?

    1. James Pollock
      October.16.2019 at 10:35 am

      The parallel isn’t complete. Graduated engineering students are employable as engineers, who make plenty of money. Whereas most graduates with basketball degrees aren’t employable as basketball players, and go back to playing on the playgrounds for free.

  7. Mike d
    October.15.2019 at 10:28 pm

    None of this would have been an issue in the 1st place if it wasn’t for the NCAA placing restrictions on student-athletes getting paid what the free market would pay them. Ergo, coaches find workarounds to “pay” the players in other ways. Two blackmarket economic activities at once.

    As for the lawsuits, the “value” of any university can go up or down for the silliest of things, your team does too well or too poorly and theyre now known as the losers, or the irresponsible party school that doesn’t care about academics. What if an off campus frat house gets caught in a dumb scandal making the university look bad while they broke some laws. Is that reason for a lawsuit?

    1. Eddy
      October.15.2019 at 10:56 pm

      Maybe they could require that the athletes only screw amateurs.

  8. santamonica811
    October.16.2019 at 4:12 am

    Wait; the Kentucky law can apply to people who have been accused but **not**convicted??? How does that possibly pass constitutional muster?

    1. James Pollock
      October.16.2019 at 10:39 am

      People who make money off of crimes fall under the “Son of Sam” laws. That falls under the general police power.
      You don’t have to be convicted of creating contraband to have your ability to profit by distributing the contraband limited/regulated by the state.

  9. ReaderY
    October.16.2019 at 11:36 am

    I think that, generally speaking, First Amendment considerations should lead to construing laws inhibiting free speech narrowly, and judges should avoid stretching them to cover parties and circumstances that the legislature did not clearly intend to cover.

    For this reason, while I agree that the statutes involved might arguably be stretched to cover this conduct, a narrow construction is appropriate and judges should not be eager to make communications actionable.

    There are good policy reasons for not covering it. If anytime someone involved in a crime wrote about it anyone in the world even indirectly affected by it could sue, debate about importantly issues would be completely stifled.

    I have repeatedly written that I think the constitution leaves states free to pass laws against sexual conduct if it wants. But in tandem with the idea that public debate and legislation is the right way to address most social issues, the constitution provides robust speech protection, and leaves people who engage in that conduct free to try to persuade legislatures that (for example) they should be left alone. If those who engaged in such conduct were so stripped of First Amendment rights that every time such conduct was discussed, anyone and everyone even remotely affected by it could sue, debate on the subject would be stifled.

    1. James Pollock
      October.16.2019 at 12:13 pm

      The goal of the legislation is to prevent people from profiting from crime. They can talk about it, but any money that results is contraband. So your criticism is a bit off-line. As the decision notes, the contraband is the property of the state, not of anyone who can invent a theory of victimhood. So, even with the law in place, it isn’t creating a motive to invent theories of victimhood and sue.

      It does reduce the incentive to “tell all”, which potentially impedes efforts to discover the methods and practices of the crime, and thus, impedes efforts to prevent recurrence. All of which (hopefully) goes into the legislative stew when they draft legislation of this nature.

  10. RobinGoodfellow
    October.16.2019 at 5:11 pm

    Sounds like they are not challenging the truth of the allegations.

    Have the rules changed? When I was younger everyone knew that accepting this type of payment would jeopardize amateur status! Once you turn pro there is no going back.

Please to post comments

Today in Supreme Court History

Today in Supreme Court History: October 15, 1883

|

10/15/1883: The Civil Rights Cases are decided.

The Grand Opera House in New York denied "another person, whose color is not stated, the full enjoyment of the accommodations."

Free Speech

Minor's Slander Lawsuit Against Another Minor, Prompted by Defendant's Allegations of Rape

Are parents liable for defamation by their minor children?

|

An excerpt from a recently filed Complaint (which used the parties' full names, but I decided to abbreviate the names because they are minors):

A. and H. [who are currently minors] dated for a few months, from approximately March 2017 thru July 2017. A. and H. had consensual sexual contact on two occasions.

A. ended the relationship, after which H. continued to express her desire for them to continue dating but that was rebuffed by A. In February 2019, at a homeschool dance, A. first learned that H. had recently told other members of their homeschool group that A. had "raped" her. That statement and accusation is patently false and was uttered maliciously by H. with the intent of damaging A.'s reputation….

The allegation of "rape" constitutes slander per se as it falsely accuses Plaintiff of committing a crime …. Defendant H. orally published this statement knowing its falsity and made it with malice and with the intent to injure, and has injured, Plaintiff's character, personal reputation as well as done damage to Plaintiff's future career and employment opportunities.

[The second defendant] is the mother of H. and has custody and control over her daughter. As such, pursuant to California Civil Code section 1714.1, the misconduct of H. is imputed to her mother, and [the mother] is jointly and severally liable for the misconduct of H.

Therefore, in addition to general damages and injunctive relief, Plaintiff is entitled to an award of punitive damages against Defendants in an sum appropriate to punish and deter such misconduct in the future, in an amount of not less than $200,000.

Two interesting practical and legal twists:

  1. Section 1714.1 provides, in relevant part,

Any act of willful misconduct of a minor that results in injury or death to another person or in any injury to the property of another shall be imputed to the parent or guardian having custody and control of the minor for all purposes of civil damages, and the parent or guardian having custody and control shall be jointly and severally liable with the minor for any damages resulting from the willful misconduct….

[Such parental liability] shall not exceed [$45,000] for each tort of the minor, and in the case of injury to a person, imputed liability shall be further limited to medical, dental and hospital expenses incurred by the injured person, not to exceed [$45,000]….

Does this extend to libel cases? No, suggests a trial court (nonprecedential) decision, Caplin v. Harvard-Westlake School (Cal. Super. Ct. 2008). That case involved chiefly emotional distress damages rather than reputational damages, but its logic would apply here:

The damages allegations [in this case] are of a psychological and emotional nature to Plaintiffs…. Plaintiffs' attempt to analogize property damage to the [insulting internet postings on plaintiff's site] is without merit …..

Even assuming that the nature of the injuries complained of fall within the ambit of Section 1714.1, Plaintiffs' seventh cause of action would nevertheless fail, as the only damages allowed under the statute are for "medical, dental and hospital expenses …." Here, the allegations do not support a claim to recover such expenses, as the damages sought are for psychological and emotional injuries rather than for physical injuries….

I'm inclined to think that the Caplin analysis is right, and would apply fully to defamation cases. The statute contemplates holding parents liable for physical injuries that require "medical, dental and hospital expenses," not reputational injuries, and for damage to property, which generally isn't seen as covering reputation. But I don't know of any binding precedent on this point.

2. Litigants usually have to indicate their full names, but minors, especially in California, are often allowed to litigate using initials or pseudonyms—especially when there are allegations of sexual impropriety involved. Here, the plaintiff is acknowledging that there was a sexual relationship when the parties were, at most, 15; a quick search for defendant H.'s full name, coupled with the name of the city she lives in, reveals a local newspaper article that describes her as having been age 12 in January 2016, which would have made her 13 or 14 at the time of the relationship (March to July 2017). And of course defendant allegedly accused plaintiff of having raped her.

It thus seems odd that the lawsuit was filed using the parties' full names. This is especially so because A.'s name is quite unusual, he appears to be an aspiring actor (with a few bit parts in some TV shows), and a Google search for the full name now shows the docket (on the UniCourt.com site) on the first results page. I am generally not a fan of pseudonymous litigation, but my tentative thought is that a case involving minors' sexual conduct (and possible misconduct) would have been a suitable case for that. Of course, query whether it is a sound decision at all for the plaintiff to sue, and turn an alleged slander within a group of home schoolers into something that could easily become a matter of public record even had the case been litigated pseudonymously.

In any event, this struck me as an interesting case (and a good fit with another libel-of-a-child case I blogged about last month), so I thought I'd pass it along.

Eugene Volokh is the Gary T. Schwartz Distinguished Professor of Law at UCLA.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Nick Gillespie's Jacket
    October.14.2019 at 12:05 pm

    Don’t be too surprised. Occam’s razor suggests it may be one of many below-average attorneys (out of the 200,000 or so in California). I don’t know who it is, so maybe not. But that seems like an egregious decision (against his own client’s interests) to use the full name. Was the decision to do so, and its consequences, fully explained to the minor and the guardian ad litem.? Plus, I don’t think you’re supposed to list the amount of punis in California complaints, and that Civil Code section seems inapplicable (as you note).

  2. Mike Breen
    October.14.2019 at 1:14 pm

    Why not? Good will is reputational and proprietary, and gets a line on a balance sheet. An ‘injury to the property” could consist of pecuniary loss resulting from lost opportunities that follow an actionable harm to reputation. The use of the term “injury” suggests something beyond destruction of a physical object.

    1. Eugene Volokh
      October.14.2019 at 3:28 pm

      One can argue that the statute should cover injury to reputation as much as injury to property. But the legal term “property” generally doesn’t cover reputation, and “injury to property” doesn’t cover libel. See, e.g., Paul v. Davis (1976) (“any harm or injury to that interest [in reputation], even where as here inflicted by an officer of the State, does not result in a deprivation of any ‘liberty’ or ‘property’ recognized by state or federal law”); Hamm v. Rhone-Poulenc Rorer Pharmaceuticals, Inc. (8th Cir. 1999) (“Damage to reputation is generally considered personal injury and thus is not an injury to ‘business or property’ within the meaning of [RICO].”). Some cases, to my knowledge almost exclusively in Louisiana, do say that a person’s “reputation is his property,” but these are a minority view, and I’ve seen no such cases in California.

      1. QuantumBoxCat
        October.14.2019 at 6:06 pm

        The language of the first sentence of 1714.1(a) would appear to cover injury to reputation though. Black’s Law Dictionary (2010) defines “injury” as: (1) The violation of another’s legal right, for which the law provides a remedy; a wrong or injustice, (2) Anything said or done in breach of a duty not to do it if harm results to another in person, character, or property. A similar definition of “injury” is used in the Restatement of Torts, Second Edition. The language that you quote from the complaint indicates that H., a minor, engaged in willful misconduct that injured A. (the conduct being the the rape claim and the injury being harm to A’s reputation). An act of willful misconduct, by a minor, which causes injury to another person, is covered by the first sentence of 1714.1(a).

        What the complaint leaves out, and which defendant will surely also point to, is that the remainder of 1714.1(a) limits the imputed liability of parents and guardians in cases involving injury to person to specifically enumerated types of medical expenses. In Cynthia M. v. Rodney E. (Cal. App. 4th Dist. March 22, 1991) the Court, reviewing the history of 1714.1, wrote:

        “The original version of section 1714.1, for example, was limited to property damage. The statute was amended 10 years later to make parents liable for personal injuries as well as property damage willfully caused by their children and to increase the maximum liability to $ 500. Subsequent amendments increased the maximum liability, added a section dealing with defacement of property, extended liability to guardians as well as parents, and restricted liability to parents and guardians who have custody and control of the minor.”

        The 1965 amendment that included the injury to person language also limited the liability in such cases to the enumerated areas of medical, dental, and hospital expenses. As I read it, the “injury to person” language covers a broad universe of torts, but the financial liability of the parent is greatly narrowed by the subsequent language that enumerates the types of expenses.

        Plaintiff’s complaint appears accurate then, and defendant’s answer to it stating 1714.1 only covers certain medical-related expenses will also be correct. Plaintiff’s attorney can then try to argue that A. will have to undergo medical treatment for the psychological trauma suffered, and that this will cost over $25,000.

        1. Eugene Volokh
          October.14.2019 at 6:45 pm

          QuantumBoxCat: I think that’s indeed consistent with Carlin v. Harvard Westlake, which I quote: the statute covers (1) up to $45K of medical, dental, and hospital expenses (not reputational injury), and (2) up to $45K in property damage (not reputational injury). Either way, reputational injury — which is what this case is about — can’t be compensated, though indeed in principle one can imagine a claim (likely not this one) in which libel allegedly led to medical, dental, or hospital expenses.

          1. Atlas_Shrugged
            October.15.2019 at 7:36 am

            Professor….Might that be revisited? = Either way, reputational injury — which is what this case is about — can’t be compensated, though indeed in principle one can imagine a claim (likely not this one) in which libel allegedly led to medical, dental, or hospital expenses.

            The case you cite is from 2005. I don’t think social media had quite the impact then, than it does now. In these cases where false claims are made, and then perpetuated by the internet and social media….isn’t the defendant now permanently harmed? Anytime they apply for employment, this will come up. So my question to you: Will this be revisited, do you think? [meaning, the question of compensation for reputational harm]

            1. James Pollock
              October.15.2019 at 9:29 am

              You’re looking forward, but there’s also the opportunity to go further back.

              The “traditional” remedy for reputational harm but not identified damages is to award nominal damages. So mom and kid are jointly liable for the $1.

  3. TwelveInchPianist
    October.14.2019 at 1:39 pm

    “The allegation of “rape” constitutes slander per se as it falsely accuses Plaintiff of committing a crime…”

    I wonder if this is still true, since nowadays some young people are taught that the term “rape” sometimes encompasses perfectly innocent behavior, like consensual sex after a few drinks, “cajoling” a person into consent, consensual sex with someone higher up in the professional food chain, etc.

    1. Michael Ejercito
      October.14.2019 at 2:44 pm

      Who is teaching that?

      1. mad_kalak
        October.14.2019 at 4:13 pm

        Only a few years ago, when the military rape crisis media hysteria was at its peak, I sat through a mandatory training, the gist of which was, that if you were drinking after hours and she/he was drunk, said person couldn’t consent and it was akin to rape. There was some grey areas admitted to when some sea lawyers in the audience started to ask some pointed questions, but they shut up when they realized it wasn’t going to reflect well on their marks if they kept at it.

      2. mad_kalak
        October.14.2019 at 4:15 pm

        Also, check out Irina Manta’s posts, on this blog, about how lying to get someone into bed is rape rape, not just rape.

      3. James Pollock
        October.16.2019 at 12:16 pm

        There have been efforts to bring into being a “rape by fraud” category, which A) seems to fit within the legal definition of rape (if consent is not meaningful, then…) but B) not at all practical to apply to the real world.

    2. JimB
      October.14.2019 at 5:51 pm

      The ages of the litigants leads me to wonder whether California has a statutory rape statute. If so, what age is the cut-off.

      1. Eugene Volokh
        October.14.2019 at 6:46 pm

        JimB: I looked into it — sex among under-18-year-olds is statutory rape, but only a misdemeanor if the parties are within three years of each other. And the statute of limitations for such misdemeanors is one year.

        1. santamonica811
          October.14.2019 at 7:05 pm

          So, there could be a California case where each person in such a past sexual relationship (both under age 18, and, say, both the same age) sues each other for statutory rape? I’m assuming that, so far, this is only a law school hypothetical, yes? Given the amount of sex that happens in high schools (and even earlier). . . maybe PI attorneys should be leaving their business cards in all the high school (and Jr. high school) classrooms.

          1. Eugene Volokh
            October.14.2019 at 9:21 pm

            They could both be prosecuted for statutory rape, but I’m not sure how the tort law analysis would play out. For a fairly recent decision canvassing the cases on consent as a defense in underage sex tort cases generally, see Bjerke v. Johnson (Minn. Ct. App. 2007), but it doesn’t deal with the situation where both parties are underage. Would courts allow the lawsuits, but effectively set off the parties’ recoveries against each other? Would the jury be invited to decide which party was the more culpable? My quick search couldn’t find any cases dealing with that specific question.

            1. santamonica811
              October.14.2019 at 9:49 pm

              Would (potential) Plaintiff Two have to counter-sue in response to seeing the initial lawsuit, in order to have the two potential cases consolidated? Or could he/she let the first case proceed to judgment, and only later file the countersuit? Or does this–and all other similar questions–fall into the “Not sure how tort law plays out.” basket?

              1. Eugene Volokh
                October.14.2019 at 11:14 pm

                I’m just winging at this point, but wouldn’t there often be a statute of limitations problem if one waits until the first case proceeds to judgment? Seems to me a cross-complaint would be called for (plus possibly an affirmative defense of consent, if the court is willing to entertain that).

                1. santamonica811
                  October.15.2019 at 5:00 am

                  Can a minor give legal consent re sex? (I think the answer ought to be ‘yes,’ with a showing of sufficient maturity, but I’m not sure about the legal standard.) I thought that the reason you can charge a 22 year old woman who is sleeping with a 17 year old boy is because he is not permitted (in the eyes of the law) to give consent. So, regardless of the apparent consent he tried to give, it had no legal effect. Same if he had been the one pursuing the 22 year old: he instigated the sexual relationship, but since he was not legally capable of giving consent . . . .

                  1. James Pollock
                    October.16.2019 at 12:25 pm

                    The statutes are written the way they are, on purpose. Can you find a 15-year-old with sufficient maturity to give meaningful consent? (yeah.) But how does the defense prove it, and how does the prosecutor disprove it?
                    MUCH easier to prove that sex happened, and when the victim was born. So that’s all the statutes require.

                    Also, a thorough inspection of ability to give meaningful consent invites doing the same for people who AREN’T minors. This presents a potential challenge to every sexual encounter that ever happens. Yikes!

  4. Lakanal
    October.15.2019 at 2:28 am

    A couple of points occurred to me. Since a key objective of the award of damages in a defamation case is vindication, it is in principle necessary that the plaintiff be named and the plaintiff’s attorney can hardly be criticised on that ground. The larger question was whether the action should have been brought at all, but given the potential long-term damage of such an allegation one can see an argument in favour.

    Second point: I do not think there was any rule at common law that made a parent liable for his child’s torts. It is still the case in England, so far as I am aware.

  5. John Rohan
    October.15.2019 at 11:13 am

    Quote: “A. and H. [who are currently minors] dated for a few months, from approximately March 2017 thru July 2017. A. and H. had consensual sexual contact on two occasions.”

    Funny thing is, every time I try to use the world “consensual” in regard to minors, I am invariably told “minors can’t legally consent!” So technically doesn’t that make a rape allegation truthful? (although not just one, but both sides could make that claim of statutory rape against each other)

    1. santamonica811
      October.15.2019 at 2:06 pm

      That was my thought. (See my earlier comment, about 5 hours earlier.)

    2. James Pollock
      October.16.2019 at 12:27 pm

      Refer to a different area of law for guidance.
      The minors had apparent authority as agents for their own interests, which is being mislabeled as “consent”.

      Or, just accept that the English word “consent” covers some territory that the legal term “consent” doesn’t.

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Donald Trump

On Congressional Inquiries and Presidential Defiance

|

Over at The Atlantic, I have a new piece on the escalating tensions between the Trump White House and the Democratic House of Representatives. The House has been unusually aggressive in its pursuit of oversight of the executive branch, which has often veered into an unofficial and now more official impeachment inquiry. For its part, the White House has been unusually defiant of congressional investigations, from the president's early declaration that the administration would fight all subpoenas to the White House counsel's announcement of a policy of total noncooperation.

The piece revisits the constitutional rationale for a congressional investigative and oversight function and the challenges of performing that task in an environment of partisan polarization. Presidents have some responsibility to cooperate with congressional oversight when possible, though less of a duty to facilitate their own impeachment. Even so, presidents also have some legitimate reasons for obstructing congressional investigations, and the tools available to Congress to coax reluctant administrations to be more cooperative are ultimately more political than legal.

Here's a taste:

Pelosi's House seems to have lost much of its leverage over the Trump administration. The president seems to be assuming that he will inevitably be impeached and that there is no legislative policy agenda to be advanced, and so he has nothing more to lose by refusing to cooperate further with the House. He is now positioning himself for the Senate trial and the electoral campaign.

Read the whole thing here.

Keith Whittington

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Brett Bellmore
    October.14.2019 at 7:34 am

    “and now more official impeachment inquiry.”

    Until they actually hold a vote on it, it’s not more official. 0=0.

    1. grb
      October.14.2019 at 8:58 am

      And yet the House is still pursuing impeachment, the inquiry continues daily, everybody (Right & Left) is discussing this impeachment and they’ll be a vote whether to impeach once the full evidence is in.

      Even setting aside the shaky constitutional basis for your comment, I don’t see its significance. What’s its value? Zero, maybe?

      1. Bob from Ohio
        October.14.2019 at 9:41 am

        “full evidence”

        The fact that Clinton lost was known in November, 2016. We al know that is the real evidence “justifying” impeachment.

        His high crime was beating her.

        1. James Pollock
          October.17.2019 at 9:04 am

          “His high crime was beating her.”

          This is so obvious to you, but the fact that the President invites other countries to take a role in our elections eludes you?

      2. Brett Bellmore
        October.14.2019 at 9:48 am

        The House is a legislative body. The way legislative bodies do things “formally” is by holding votes. No vote has been held yet.

        Ergo, it is not a formal proceeding.

        You might ask why Pelosi and Schiff are determined to do this informally. Apparently they’re trying to leverage an informal impeachment investigation to collect dirt on Trump, without requiring any of the Democrats elected from districts where Trump is popular to cast votes that might hurt them next year.

        1. NToJ
          October.14.2019 at 10:24 am

          Which “Democrats elected from districts where Trump is popular” have come out in opposition to an impeachment inquiry? Which of them has not come out vocally in support of an impeachment inquiry?

          Anyway, we’re going to get an impeachment inquiry. Pelosi will be forced to cave, and so we’ll have our vote.

          1. Armchair Lawyer
            October.14.2019 at 10:30 am

            Representative Van Drew, NJ, for one.

            1. NToJ
              October.14.2019 at 10:57 am

              There’s actually 8 of them (the others are Brindisi, Cunningham, Golden, Horn, Kind, and Petrson). That gets you down to 227-228, a majority. And since he’s out publicly, how does a vote hurt him?

              The only people who are not on record yet are 14 Republicans. There are no Democrats who have not announced their position on an impeachment inquiry.

              1. Armchair Lawyer
                October.14.2019 at 12:20 pm

                If you already knew, why ask the question?

                There’s a difference between being “on the record” and an actual vote.

                1. NToJ
                  October.14.2019 at 1:23 pm

                  So you’re voting on a lot of them lying to the public and their constituents and then changing their minds? I’d bet on them picking up votes, since a lot of the no/on the fence statements predated the President’s blanket refusal to respond to subpoenas.

                  1. Armchair Lawyer
                    October.14.2019 at 1:48 pm

                    “So you’re voting on a lot of them lying to the public and their constituents and then changing their minds? ”

                    They’re politicians. It’s practically in their job description.

                    1. NToJ
                      October.14.2019 at 1:51 pm

                      So it’s equally plausible that all the no Republican votes will change their minds, too?

                    2. Brett Bellmore
                      October.14.2019 at 2:04 pm

                      Some Democrats might decide not to go on record actually voting to impeach the President due to being elected out of districts that like Trump.

                      Essentially ALL Republicans will have that motive.

                      Sure, one or two might decide to vote in favor of it; Politicians do decide to retire occasionally.

                    3. NToJ
                      October.14.2019 at 2:38 pm

                      @Brett,

                      There are Republicans holding districts that Clinton won, too.

                    4. Smooth Like a Rhapsody
                      October.15.2019 at 8:26 am

                      No theory
                      Any Republican who votes for impeachment, especially in a swing district, might just as well file papers that day changing his party affiliation.

                    5. NToJ
                      October.15.2019 at 4:37 pm

                      What’s weird about this is that you all are imagining a world where Democrats live in swing districts and can never buck party lines, but Republicans never operate that way. It’s just not true. The term RINO means something to some people, and there are RINOs. When Nixon was impeached, Republicans stood with him until they didn’t, but it wasn’t necessarily all at once. There is a continuum that has more than nothing to do with the changing tides of public opinion. Admittedly President Trump’s favorable/unfavorable has been uniquely stable. But Nixon’s net approval was at its third highest of his presidency (47.8) before plummeting to -7.6 in 5 months. Since the President is sitting at -12.2 today, there’s less room for him to fall, but Nixon found himself in the -30s eventually.

                      Anyway the question here is not voting for impeachment. It’s voting for an impeachment inquiry. There are currently 14 Republicans who aren’t on record yet, and several of them said things like “Let’s put it through the process and see what happens” process being “oversight process”. That was before the President told Congress to eat shit. Maybe the Representatives circle the wagons, but maybe not.

                    6. Armchair Lawyer
                      October.15.2019 at 6:16 pm

                      I think, from the conversations and stories about Pelosi trying to gauge support for an impeachment inquiry, that the Democrats aren’t quite 100% there.

                      I also think the rules and regulations in any impeachment inquiry will play a large role, and some Democrats won’t be on board with an inquiry that they don’t view as “fair” (IE, that doesn’t have protections for the minority party).

                      The converse situation (GOP members in Clinton districts), there are far fewer of.

                      To draw an analogy, going by public statements over the last 15 years, immigration reform should’ve happened by now. But the devil was in the details.

        2. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf
          October.14.2019 at 11:12 am

          That’s a silly distinction. Committees hold hearings all the time without voting; are those unofficial?

          If a committee is in session, it’s official. If the full house is in session, it’s official.

          You don’t need to go around inventing fresh excuses for your delusions. TDS strikes all sorts of people from across the full political spectrum.

        3. Formerly Known as Stash
          October.14.2019 at 1:39 pm

          Actually they have rules which make things formal. Seems to me the Speaker’s power to refer any “matter” to one or more committees whose jurisdiction is “related” to it for investigation makes the inquiry “formal” inasmuch as the Speaker has done so. See Rule XII. There are also parliamentary rules, and there is one that requires House authorization to investigate a member. Jefferson’s Manual, Sec. 321. The absence of a similar one for impeachment seems to be pretty strong evidence that the Speaker’s referral is conclusive, and makes the impeachment investigation “formal” within the meaning of House rules and procedures.

          1. iowantwo
            October.15.2019 at 9:07 pm

            So oversight and impeachment inquiries are exactly the same?
            Or phrased differently. How can an outsider tell the difference?
            My thinking is, a refusal to respond from the White House, would have to go to a judge. The 1st question a judge would ask is How do I determine if this is oversight. (legislative purpose) or impeachment?

            1. Formerly Known as Stash
              October.16.2019 at 3:30 pm

              My point is that it is an “impeachment inquiry” by reason of the referral by the Speaker, and she has been delegated that power by the House via the adoption of the rules. Same situation as when President can exercise emergency powers delegated by Congress. An outsider can tell the difference by the Speaker’s referral to the committees. The Speaker is not some random member–she has been delegated powers by the House. Remember too, that the impeachment power is not applicable only to the President. Would you have the same objection if it involved the impeachment of some other federal official? Are you suggesting that the Speaker could not refer the matter of judicial misconduct to the Judiciary Committee without a full House vote?

        4. James Pollock
          October.17.2019 at 9:05 am

          “The House is a legislative body. The way legislative bodies do things “formally” is by holding votes. No vote has been held yet.”

          They also “formally” hold hearings.

      3. Sam Gompers
        October.14.2019 at 4:28 pm

        We already know the outcome. It’s like a case before one of those Obama judges.

        Who cares what happens during the process, we already know the outcome.

        1. RestoreWesternHegemony
          October.14.2019 at 8:37 pm

          Pretty much. When you look up kangaroo court in the dictionary, you get “Anything conducted but Democrat Party politicians and judges.”

          1. RestoreWesternHegemony
            October.14.2019 at 8:37 pm

            *by

      4. Kazinski
        October.15.2019 at 12:55 am

        Double secret impeachment.

        Pretty strange to have all the testimony and depositions locked down. You’d think if they had real case they’d want to publicize it.

        1. David Nieporent
          October.15.2019 at 9:29 am

          It’s weird — some might think bad faith — how people pretend not to understand the difference between an investigation and a trial.

          1. Jason Cavanaugh
            October.16.2019 at 3:57 am

            They aren’t pretending to not know the difference.

            They see anything, and anyone attempting to hold Trump accountable to the law or Constitution as invalid, and argue accordingly.

            You might as well be communicating with a box of rocks.

            1. Brett Bellmore
              October.16.2019 at 6:38 am

              We see the people trying to go after Trump conspicuously avoiding holding any sort of vote. You know who avoids a vote in the House?

              Somebody who expects to lose that vote.

              So the default assumption is that if the leadership are avoiding holding any votes while investigating Trump, it’s because they think they’re thwarting the will of the House majority, and don’t want to give that majority an opportunity to stop them.

              Of course, I could be proven wrong. The way that happens is if they hold a vote, and win.

              1. Jason Cavanaugh
                October.16.2019 at 1:15 pm

                They don’t have to hold any vote to investigate whether articles of impeachment are warranted.

                They have to vote to send such to the Senate once the evidence is gathered.

                The default assumption from me, and other rational posters, is that people like you are morons.

                1. damikesc
                  October.16.2019 at 4:49 pm

                  Except if they take the vote…Trump has SOME due process rights then.

                  Now? The Dems keep Republicans out of the “hearings”. Promise transcripts eventually. You know…the transparency thing.

                  1. Sarcastr0
                    October.16.2019 at 9:26 pm

                    No one is being kept out of hearings except for those not from any of the committees involved trying to crash the hearings.

                    Republicans get to ask half the questions, and given the hearings are taking like 8 hours, I don’t think they lack for chances to speak.

              2. James Pollock
                October.17.2019 at 9:08 am

                “We see the people trying to go after Trump conspicuously avoiding holding any sort of vote.”

                The vote is held in November of every 4th year. The last one was a little less than 3 years ago, so whining that there hasn’t been a vote is a little, no, make that extremely stupid.
                Are you stupid, Brett?

        2. nonzenze
          October.17.2019 at 6:01 pm

          And then we’d have accusations of leaking sensitive diplomatic/national-security concerns!

    2. Armchair Lawyer
      October.14.2019 at 10:33 am

      Yep.

  2. Joe_dallas
    October.14.2019 at 9:26 am

    The House oversight committee has requested copies of Trumps tax returns (2010-2018) as part of the house’s oversight duties.
    The CA for DC has ruled that the accounting firm must provide the returns. However, the statute (section 6103 IRC) limit congress ability to obtain his returns to only the ways and means committee and the senate finance committee with a further limitation that it must only be done for legislative purposes. It would seem the language of the statute does override the House’s oversight investigative powers.

    1. Bob from Ohio
      October.14.2019 at 9:43 am

      What is the relevance for pre-election returns in any event?

      1. Joe_dallas
        October.14.2019 at 10:11 am

        “What is the relevance for pre-election returns in any event?”

        That is a valid point – The claimed need for the investigation of the tax returns was the payment to stormy daniels which was a 2016 [?] payment, so the search for 8 years of returns did not seem relevant.
        The opinion however did not seem to address the issue of relevancy in any meaningful manner – other than the oversight had very broad authority.
        The opnion also did not seem to address the statutory limitation under section 6103 as to whether 6103 overrode Congress’ general authority to investigate.

        1. NToJ
          October.14.2019 at 10:59 am

          “The opnion also did not seem to address the statutory limitation under section 6103 as to whether 6103 overrode Congress’ general authority to investigate.”

          Correct. It also didn’t address the applicability of the Soviet Constitution to this inquiry, or whether the subpoena complied with the 1663 British Navigation Acts.

        2. NToJ
          October.14.2019 at 11:00 am

          “The opnion also did not seem to address the statutory limitation under section 6103…”

          Did you find it curious that the DOJ, the Trump Plaintiffs, and the dissent also did not address this limitation, in that case?

    2. NToJ
      October.14.2019 at 10:52 am

      “However, the statute (section 6103 IRC) limit congress ability to obtain his returns to only the ways and means committee and the senate finance committee with a further limitation that it must only be done for legislative purposes.”

      26 USC 6103(f) has to do with requests to the Secretary of the Treasury. The House Ways and Means Committee already submitted a request to the Secretary, which was denied. The case you are citing (“CA for DC has ruled”) involved a subpoena to Mazars USA, LLP, an accounting firm. 26 USC 6103(f) has nothing to do with that request. Why, in your view, does it apply to that case at all?

      The House Oversight Committee’s oversight jurisdiction exists “without regard to” other committee’s jurisdictions. It also has a separate subpoena power, subject to the limitation that the documents or information sought are “consider[ed] necessary” by the Oversight Committee. I’m not aware of any other limitation on the subpoena in the rule.

      However, the stated legislative purpose is the 1978 Ethics in Government Act, and more specifically whether the President engaged in illegal conduct before and during his tenure, has undisclosed conflicts of interest, is complying with the Emoluments Clauses, and accurately reported his financials to the Office of Government Ethics, among other agencies.

      1. Krayt
        October.15.2019 at 12:37 am

        Seems like a scurrilous work-around to take the tax returns from your accountant because your own law prevents the treasury from giving it up.

        To hell with the spirit of the law, and to hell with the spirit of the 4th Amendment, preventing the king from filching at will through papers of opponents until they find something, anything, to hit him with.

        1. NToJ
          October.15.2019 at 4:39 pm

          Current law does not prevent the treasury from giving it up. The treasury refused to give it up because it is headed by the person whose tax returns were requested.

          This has nothing to do with the 4th Amendment. The government has President Trump’s tax returns. Section 6103 involves an intergovernmental transfer of documents.

          1. Brett Bellmore
            October.16.2019 at 6:39 am

            The Treasury’s position was that current law prevented them from giving it up.

            1. James Pollock
              October.17.2019 at 9:15 am

              “The Treasury’s position was that current law prevented them from giving it up.”

              Yeah. By an AMAZING coincidence, the boss of the Treasury can be fired from the Treasury, at will, by the person whose records were requested.

              I contend that the reason Trump doesn’t want his tax records released is because they’d show that he isn’t nearly as rich as he likes people to believe he is. That’s damaging to his brand, but not his political chances.

    3. bernard11
      October.15.2019 at 1:33 pm

      the statute (section 6103 IRC) limit congress ability to obtain his returns to only the ways and means committee and the senate finance committee with a further limitation that it must only be done for legislative purposes.

      Here is paragraph (f)(1). Care to point out where it says that?

      Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.

      Note that under paragraph (f)(3) other committees may be authorized by resolution to obtain returns, and that:

      Any resolution described in this paragraph shall specify the purpose for which the return or return information is to be furnished and that such information cannot reasonably be obtained from any other source.

      But this language does not appear in paragraph 1, quoted above, requiring the Secretary to provide returns on request to the three named committees.

  3. mad_kalak
    October.14.2019 at 9:30 am

    I disagree with Whittington, the White House was very cooperative with the Mueller Probe, doing everything but letting Trump himself be interviewed. They have not been “unusually defiant of congressional investigations” in the past.

    Standing up for executive privilege against the Kafka-trap “impeachment inquiry” that is occurring without a formal vote of the full House on the matter is not being “unusually defiant,” especially considering recent precedent leading to Holder being held in contempt of Congress for his stonewalling.

    1. Armchair Lawyer
      October.14.2019 at 10:31 am

      Indeed. Trump was very cooperative with the Mueller probe.

      In this instance, Trump sees it as just more fishing and press-generation from the Democrats.

      1. M L
        October.14.2019 at 11:34 am

        Madness of leftist zealots

        https://nypost.com/2019/10/12/goodwin-madness-of-leftist-zealots/

        …singling out Trump for the turmoil engulfing the country is possible only if you disregard the No. 1 contributor: the refusal of Democrats and most of the media to accept the results of the 2016 election.

        That refusal has become, among many on the left, borderline psychotic. Nothing else compares to the damage it is doing to our ­nation’s fabric and global image. .

        Mueller was never fired, testified that no one tried to limit his probe or cut his resources — and still he couldn’t deliver the goods.

        In America, that means the case is closed. That should have been the end of it.

        The dirty tricks in 2016, the flames of treason fanned by Hillary Clinton and top members of the Obama administration, the wild media scoops and whispered accusations — all of it had been considered and found to have no merit. The Russia, Russia, Russia charge was false and it was time to move on.

        Instead, the left immediately began searching for another silver bullet. One way or another, they would bring down Donald Trump.

        Thus was born Ukraine, Ukraine, Ukraine.

        1. James Pollock
          October.14.2019 at 3:09 pm

          “Nothing else compares to the damage it is doing to our ­nation’s fabric and global image. .”

          Unless you count the refusal to accept the outcomes of the 2008 and 2012 elections, which were, of course, dealt with entirely rationally by R’s.

          1. RestoreWesternHegemony
            October.14.2019 at 8:39 pm

            Obama is an evil traitor with no conscience, but we didn’t try to illegally interfere with his presidency.

            1. James Pollock
              October.15.2019 at 9:22 am

              Mitch McConnell agrees with you on the first part, but Merrick Garland disagrees with the second.

              1. jubulent
                October.15.2019 at 10:26 am

                Obama could have gotten Garland onto the court. His failure to exercise his Executive powers to do so were a political decision.

              2. RestoreWesternHegemony
                October.15.2019 at 11:22 am

                They didn’t consent to his nomination, as they are Constitutionally entitled to.

                1. James Pollock
                  October.17.2019 at 9:03 am

                  There’s only one Mitch, so calling him “they” seems odd.

          2. KevinP
            October.14.2019 at 9:19 pm

            No one attempted to sabotage elected and re-elected President Obama, or claim that he was secretly elected by Russians and thus illegitimate.

            But if this is now the norm, then the next Democratic President can certainly be on the receiving end too.

            If elections don’t matter, then elections won’t matter. Be careful what you wish for.

            1. James Pollock
              October.15.2019 at 9:24 am

              “No one attempted to sabotage elected and re-elected President
              Obama”

              Unless you count the Republicans who did so at every opportunity.

              “or claim that he was secretly elected by Russians and thus illegitimate”

              The claim was that Hawaii was part of Kenya, as I recall.

              1. I Callahan
                October.15.2019 at 1:03 pm

                No, the Republicans didn’t at every opportunity. That’s a flat out, bald faced lie.

                1. Sarcastr0
                  October.16.2019 at 5:08 am

                  Here’s John Boehner, the likely speaker if Republicans take the House, offering his plans for Obama’s agenda: “We’re going to do everything — and I mean everything we can do — to kill it, stop it, slow it down, whatever we can.”

                  Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell summed up his plan to National Journal: “The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.”

                  https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/the-gops-no-compromise-pledge-044311

                  How soon they forget.

                  1. Brett Bellmore
                    October.16.2019 at 6:42 am

                    Well, yes, opposition parties typically oppose the agenda of the other party, that’s why they’re “opposition” parties. And it is always the aim of any given party that a President of the opposing party not be reelected.

                    But he wasn’t “sabotaged” in the sense Trump has been. He was just opposed.

                    1. James Pollock
                      October.17.2019 at 8:59 am

                      Translation:

                      “It’s different when WE do it”.

                2. James Pollock
                  October.17.2019 at 9:01 am

                  “No, the Republicans didn’t at every opportunity. That’s a flat out, bald faced lie.”

                  Not wanting it to be true is not the same as not being true.

                  They opposed Obama even when he was trying to do something they say they’re for. For example, Obama went to Congress to ask for authority to hold more deportation hearings, and deport more people. The R’s didn’t even bother to consider the request.

            2. James Pollock
              October.15.2019 at 9:25 am

              ” Be careful what you wish for.”

              You seem to have written my name on the wrong side of the ledger.

    2. Atlas_Shrugged
      October.15.2019 at 6:06 am

      Mad….That was my take as well. The premise was totally wrong.

      Look, impeachment is a political process. There really are no enumerated impeachment rules, other than what the Speaker decides are the rules. What would elevate this to a dangerous level is arbitrarily jailing uncooperative witnesses. That is a step too far, and congressmen should back away from this. Those are Banana Republic tactics.

      The Republic can survive a bad POTUS. God knows, we have had bad POTUS’ in our past. I am not so certain the Republic can survive a malign press, a bureaucracy that actively undermines a duly elected POTUS and his lawful attempts to implement perfectly legal policies, intelligence agencies and their leadership with their own agenda, and a Congress run amok.

      1. James Pollock
        October.16.2019 at 12:29 pm

        ” There really are no enumerated impeachment rules, other than what the Speaker decides are the rules.”

        Well, what the Speaker decides are the rules AND can get enough “aye” votes for, when the vote is eventually called.

  4. James Pollock
    October.14.2019 at 9:43 am

    “the tools available to Congress to coax reluctant administrations to be more cooperative are ultimately more political than legal.”

    You’ll know its serious when the House votes to zero out the Secret Service’s White House detail travel budget. For extra fun, if they divert these funds, but ONLY these funds, to border wall construction…

    1. Brett Bellmore
      October.14.2019 at 9:49 am

      At which point Trump simply rehires his previous private security detail.

      Why not, “You’ll know it’s serious when the House starts holding votes.”?

      1. James Pollock
        October.14.2019 at 2:57 pm

        “At which point Trump simply rehires his previous private security detail.”

        Pay for something himself????!? I don’t think so.

        1. Caphon
          October.14.2019 at 3:26 pm

          Well he may just decide to stop donating his salary and using that. But then maybe the House could cut off the President’s salary? That would be pretty significant.

          1. Brett Bellmore
            October.16.2019 at 6:44 am

            The House can’t do squat without the cooperation of the Senate, except impeach him, and that requires the Senate to convict.

            1. James Pollock
              October.16.2019 at 12:33 pm

              “The House can’t do squat without the cooperation of the Senate”

              Unless, of course, spending by the government has to be approved by both houses of Congress, and not just in the Senate.

    2. mad_kalak
      October.14.2019 at 9:55 am

      Those are fun hypotheticals JP, and I see them in the lefty-verse on Twitter. Things like the House locking people up with the Marshall’s help for those who refuse to testify, etc. I find it hard to believe that the House will have the guts to do things like that, when they don’t even have the guts to make a full House vote for impeachment.

      1. Bob from Ohio
        October.14.2019 at 10:15 am

        “House locking people up with the Marshall’s help for those who refuse to testify”

        I’d like to see that.

        I thought the fantasy was the Sargent at Arms doing it. Are they really talking about using the US Marshall’s office? Why would an executive branch appointee arrest executive branch members at half of the legislature’s request?

      2. Brett Bellmore
        October.14.2019 at 10:22 am

        I think they’re either hoping that an informal inquiry can be leveraged to find dirt that would make a formal impeachment politically viable, or hoping to provoke Trump into some reaction that could be similarly leveraged.

        1. Alpheus W Drinkwater
          October.14.2019 at 11:47 am

          Well, there’s good precedent for that. Like starting an investigation into Whitewater, and ending with semen stains on a blue dress.

          1. Caphon
            October.14.2019 at 3:39 pm

            People forget that something like 14 convictions came out of Whitewater directly related the matter that prompted the investigation – including the sitting governor of Arkansas(!) and the Clinton’s direct business partners(:O). Not in perjury traps but for fraud and embezzlement connected to their business dealings. It was messy business, and yes, completely overshadowed by the unfortunate events with Monica. But the Clinton’s weren’t any cleaner than the dress with regards to Whitewater itself, just not enough to get over the hurdle of taking down a sitting president. Had he been otherwise, both he and Hillary would surely have been indicted. The reality is that the law does treat folks differently based on their position of power. Nothing’s changed in that regard even with Trump.

            1. James Pollock
              October.16.2019 at 12:40 pm

              “the Clinton’s weren’t any cleaner than the dress with regards to Whitewater itself”

              Which explains why a multimillion-dollar, multi-year investigation came up with exactly 0 indictments of the Clintons. It’s a shame they didn’t hire YOU to run the investigation, since you apparently know where all the bodies are buried.

              ” just not enough to get over the hurdle of taking down a sitting president. Had he been otherwise, both he and Hillary would surely have been indicted.”

              When was Hillary President?

              Considering that neither one is President, what kept them from being “surely indicted” in 2001? Bill wasn’t President, and Hill wasn’t a Senator.

        2. James Pollock
          October.14.2019 at 3:07 pm

          I think the leadership just wants to ride out the rest of the term, and beat him at the ballot. More and more of the D-in-the-street is losing patience, which is showing up in some showboat Reps talking about “hey, let’s do this!” because it plays with their base. But if they wanted to go impeaching the Twit-in-Chief, it would have been within 90 days of the House changing hands. It would have been followed by a party-line vote to acquit in the Senate, and there’d be nothing more hanging over Trump’s head keeping him looking over his shoulder every time he thinks about doing something shady.

      3. James Pollock
        October.14.2019 at 2:59 pm

        ” they don’t even have the guts to make a full House vote for impeachment.
        ”

        The D leadership prefers ineffective President Trump to a hypothetical President Pence, who might be able to actually follow through on things.

    3. Krayt
      October.14.2019 at 12:25 pm

      You’ll know its serious when the House votes to zero out the Secret Service’s White House detail travel budget.

      That’ll convince the American people it’s not about getting a political enemy. More! More!

      1. James Pollock
        October.14.2019 at 3:03 pm

        “That’ll convince the American people it’s not about getting a political enemy.”

        Depends on whether having to stay in Washington makes the President actually get any useful work done, I guess. I wouldn’t bet on it, myself. Mr. Trump doesn’t have any experience working for someone else, and it shows.

  5. Stephen Lathrop
    October.14.2019 at 10:06 am

    The president seems to be assuming that he will inevitably be impeached and that there is no legislative policy agenda to be advanced, and so he has nothing more to lose by refusing to cooperate further with the House.

    Whittington flies pretty wide of the mark. Whittington apparently ignores that Trump has a lot more to lose. For instance, he could lose a trial in the Senate, instead of collecting the near-certain exoneration he would be awarded if tried before further evidence can be collected.

    Thus, Trump’s non-cooperation is, without any reasonable contradiction possible, an attempt to suppress discovery of more evidence against him. And also an attempt to deny the House its prerogative to build a political case against Trump which would support impeachment and removal from office.

    Whittington also goes light on the powers available to the House. Pursuant to its impeachment inquiry, the House could monitor disbursements from the treasury, with an eye to finding any for purposes which had not been expressly appropriated. Government officers who authorized such expenditures could be subpoenaed, and held in contempt for those authorizations. They could be imprisoned by the House, without recourse to the justice system. They could be fined. Their paychecks could be garnished and their bank accounts frozen. Liens could be put on their real estate. All of that could happen alike to every Trump administration official who defied a subpoena, failed to produce documents, or lied to investigators.

    All of that comes before considering the slower-acting advantages the power of the purse puts at the disposal of the House. If the House chose to do it, it could by inaction de-fund every part of the administration which failed to cooperate. Start with the Office of Legal Council, and its letter of defiance. De-fund the “investigate the investigators,” travesty in the administration—but to reassure critics, move the money instead to the Senate, to continue the investigation there.

    Trump scoffs at the House, and nothing happens. It is because nothing happens that the House looks powerless. The House could teach Trump to stop scoffing, and fear its power. It has only to act.

    1. mad_kalak
      October.14.2019 at 10:13 am

      If the full House won’t vote on impeachment, what makes you think they will strip salaries, and other more hardball tactics? Also, I think the Senate has a say in House attempts to do things like that, like freeze bank accounts, and I’m sure they would end in McConnell’s so called “graveyard” of other House bills.

      1. Stephen Lathrop
        October.14.2019 at 12:13 pm

        mad_kalak, the Senate gets no more say than Granny Smith, the apple. None. The House has “Sole Power.”

        As for McConnell and his “graveyard,” he has been bragging about it in campaign ads. Boasting that he stands between Trump and removal from office, and that Kentuckians can count on him to stop it. I’m looking forward to that ad getting a lot of airtime from Democrats in Senate campaigns come next fall.

        1. Armchair Lawyer
          October.14.2019 at 12:31 pm

          Stephen,

          Mad’s comment about the Senate was clearly in reference to your proposed insane plan to “Freeze Bank accounts”. IE, you would need both Houses of Congress to have a hope of this vastly illegal plan.

          But let’s break down this insane statement of yours.

          “the House could monitor disbursements from the treasury, with an eye to finding any for purposes which had not been expressly appropriated.”

          –OK. Although this is always a grey area, especially with some points in the law.

          “Government officers who authorized such expenditures could be subpoenaed, and held in contempt for those authorizations.”

          This is very, very grey. I mean you would need absolute, 100% evidence that it was actually illegal

          “They could be imprisoned by the House, without recourse to the justice system.”

          OK, this is flat out illegal, and just wrong. It breaks so many laws, and so many areas of the Constitution that it boggles the mind. No law enforcement official or judge would ever uphold such action.

          1. Bob from Ohio
            October.14.2019 at 12:42 pm

            “without recourse to the justice system”

            cough habeas corpus cough

            1. James Pollock
              October.16.2019 at 12:46 pm

              Back when W was protecting us from terrorists, they tried shuffling prisoners from military base to military base, with enough frequency that the mandamus writs always arrived after the prisoner was somewhere else. They gave up on that after a few rounds, though.

              I’m not sure a habeus writ has any effect on Congress, if they don’t want it to. What if they get the paperwork, and just say “nah!”?

          2. Stephen Lathrop
            October.14.2019 at 1:53 pm

            Armchair, if you really are a lawyer, you are thinking like a lawyer, and positing that lawyers get to decide everything, all the time. You are doing that while staring straight at a part of the Constitution which contradicts you.

            What do you suppose, “sole power,” means? Unless it means no one else gets to interfere, it is meaningless. “No one else,” includes your, “law enforcement official or judge.” They get no legitimate say in impeachments.

            Older Americans today suffer from the incomplete preparation for political insight which was the usual fare in their 8th grade civics classes. In those, the day-to-day functions of government were both well-taught, and in some cases well-remembered. What was left out of 8th grade civics was any mention of the over-arching part of political theory uppermost in mind among the founders—the theory of sovereignty. It infuses both the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence—where it would be conspicuous to everyone, if almost everyone had not been taught as children to ignore it, and concentrate instead only on the decrees in the Constitution delegating and limiting the powers of government. That is what you are doing here.

            So please, consider some of the other sole powers the sovereign decrees in its Constitution. How about the President’s pardon power? Can a law enforcement official or judge intervene in that? How about the power of Congress to declare war. What role is there in that for a law enforcement official or judge? On its face, in the Constitution, the impeachment power is no different. If you think otherwise, show why.

            1. Armchair Lawyer
              October.14.2019 at 2:11 pm

              How’s this….

              “Impeachment” does not mean imprisoning people without recourse to the judicial system. Which is what you’ve have proposed. Which is illegal as all hell. That is the hallmark of dictatorship.

              “Imprisoning people without recourse to the judicial system….” It violates the 5th Amendment. The 6th and/or 7th amendment. The 9th amendment. Not to mention the Separation of Powers, if you’re having the House majority due it. And probably some more areas I’ve missed.

              But go on…keep defending this somehow.

              1. Michael Ejercito
                October.14.2019 at 2:49 pm

                Stephen Lathrop is anti-American.

                See his comment aboyt not wanting to narrowly define foreign participation in elections.

                1. Stephen Lathrop
                  October.14.2019 at 6:10 pm

                  Michael, I am curious, I cannot remember addressing that issue. But maybe I did, and forgot it. Or maybe you are mistakenly describing some comment I made on another issue. Care to quote it back to me?

                  1. Michael Ejercito
                    October.16.2019 at 12:29 am

                    You wrote that you supported a law that prohibited foreigners from participating in elections.

                    I asked how participation could be construed narrowly.

                    You asked why participation needs to be narrowly construed.

                    1. Stephen Lathrop
                      October.16.2019 at 2:30 am

                      Not much of a citation to go on. But given what you remember, how is that anti-American?

              2. Stephen Lathrop
                October.14.2019 at 3:45 pm

                Armchair, in short, you have nothing. I assert impeachment is an exercise of sovereign power, and ask you to refute that if you can.

                Instead, you assert 5 ways the Constitution constrains sovereign power, which is an absurdity. The Constitution can never constrain the sovereign. The Constitution is the sovereign’s creation. The sovereign can make the government, modify the government, ignore the government, abolish the government, or replace the government. The government gets no say in any of that. That is what sovereign power means.

                You would have done better to assert that because the House is a division of government, it cannot in fact be exercising sovereign power, but only limited power. Then we could have had a discussion worth having. On my side, I would show you that in addition to contradicting the plain text of the Constitution, your premise precludes any exercise of the impeachment power at all. That is what you want, of course. And it happens to be also what President Trump is attempting right now to demonstrate. In so doing, he is edging very close to an outright competition with the People themselves, to seize sovereignty from them. That is what you are backing.

                1. Armchair Lawyer
                  October.14.2019 at 4:17 pm

                  For the love of….

                  “Instead, you assert 5 ways the Constitution constrains sovereign power, which is an absurdity. The Constitution can never constrain the sovereign”

                  The Constitution is literally designed to restrain and constrain sovereign power. It is the purpose of having a Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights.

                  Someone else take this….

                2. Armchair Lawyer
                  October.14.2019 at 4:19 pm

                  OK, we’ll try this again. From basics.

                  Stephen, President Trump is President of the United States and head of the executive branch.

                  Why can’t he just take every Democrat in Congress and throw them in prison, then do what he wants. What prevents him from doing this, from a legal perspective.

                  1. Stephen Lathrop
                    October.14.2019 at 7:09 pm

                    The Constitution is literally designed to restrain and constrain sovereign power. It is the purpose of having a Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights.

                    Well, Armchair, there’s the problem, right there. You are conflating government and sovereign, with everything in a hopeless muddle. Think of it this way (because this is the way it is): A constitution is a decree from a sovereign. That decree creates a government, which is what a constitution constitutes. Thus, the creation of a government is said to be an exercise of the sovereign’s constitutive power—and the ability to exercise constitutive power is seen as the defining characteristic of sovereignty.

                    When a sovereign exercises constitutive power, it creates a government according to the sovereign’s pleasure. To act at pleasure is to act without constraint of any kind. Rights under government (leaving aside other theories of rights) are decreed to the subjects at the pleasure of the sovereign.

                    The sovereign acts continuously to keep the government in prescribed bounds, and to vindicate the rights of subjects.

                    With that as background, we can turn to your example. The Constitution defines the offenses Trump would commit if he did what you say. The sovereign power of the People would arm them to vindicate the Constitution. President Trump could not do as you suggest, because a power greater than his own—sovereign power—would compel him to do otherwise.

                    More generally, you misunderstand the founders’ view of sovereignty. Or perhaps you understand it a bit, but not the implications.

                    The founders never meant “sovereignty” to mean the power of government. The founders believed, as some said explicitly, that no national government was possible without having over it at all times a sovereign of unlimited power to constrain the government within whatever bounds the sovereign prescribed.

                    Thus, the otherwise inexplicable miracle of powerful governments which respect the rights of even the least among the nation’s citizens. If government oppresses them, do those ordinary people enjoy power of their own sufficient to enforce rights against the power of goernment? Of course not. So where does the power come from to accomplish that? It can only come from one source, a sovereign with unlimited power, to overawe the government, and compel enforcement of the rights the sovereign has decreed for its subjects.

                    I suggest if you keep those basics in mind, my comments will cease to strike you as outlandish. The premise we must all be working from now, is that President Trump, by refusing all cooperation with the House on impeachment, is not just scoffing at Democrats, but actually challenging America’s sovereign, the People, to a contest after which only the winner will exercise sovereignty. It is a contest in which the People’s sovereignty will end, or Trump will be defeated.

                    That is a constitutional crisis of a severity not seen since the Civil War. You should not wonder if it becomes a contest of brute force on behalf of the People, just as Trump has envisioned it as a contest of force on his own behalf.

                    The difference between the adversaries is that at least for now, at the outset, the People come armed with constitutive power, and the ability which they always have to act at pleasure in defense of their sovereignty. And they are not just armed, but forearmed, because they wield the “sole power” of impeachment, a constitutive power which they delegated in the Constitution to the House, to meet a crisis exactly such as this one. Make no mistake, that is sovereign power the House can wield, if it will, not constrained power of the usual sort with which the House operates. Those are the implications of that “sole power” declaration from the still-sovereign People, in their Constitution, which the government is not the least empowered to constrain.

                    1. Armchair Lawyer
                      October.14.2019 at 8:02 pm

                      OK, question for the forum at large, everyone, liberals, libertarians and conservatives, everyone besides Stephen.

                      Did that make sense to anyone?

                      James? Brett? Bob? NToJ? Sarcastro? Anyone? Did that make any sense at all?

                    2. Absaroka
                      October.14.2019 at 10:53 pm

                      “Did that make any sense at all?”

                      Nope 🙂

                      It is remarkably similar to the ‘sovereign citizen’ stuff; different arguments, but the same too clever by half logic.

                    3. Stephen Lathrop
                      October.15.2019 at 5:20 am

                      Absaroka, make sense of this for me, please:

                      “The Constitution is literally designed to restrain and constrain sovereign power. It is the purpose of having a Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights.”

                      Absaroka, answer these questions:

                      1. What in the Constitution informs us that the judiciary is excluded from interfering with the pardon power, but empowered to interfere with the impeachment power?

                      2. If sovereign power is not what compels government to respect rights and honor limitations, what power does compel government to respect rights and honor limitations?

                      3. In the question above, how did limitations on government get there in the first place—from God or some other source; what source, and by what authority?

                      4. If separation of powers constrains impeachment and removal, how can separation of powers remain sacrosanct, while exercise of impeachment and removal boots a president out of office?

                      More generally, my comments on the role of sovereignty in American government are the exact opposite of sovereign citizen crap—as even you seem to acknowledge, while dragging that in because you know it is crap, and you would like to smear around a little crap.

                      Nor did I just make up any of it. Everything I wrote above can be found in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, or the historical record—particularly, with regard to the U.S., in the writings of founders, Jefferson, Madison, and James Wilson, and in the record of events and writings preceding and during the American Revolution. Back of that, I am indebted to Edmund Morgan’s great history, Inventing the People: The Rise of Popular Sovereignty in England and America. Behind Morgan and the English history lies Hobbes’ Leviathan. Insightful commentary on these and related issues, and particularly on Hobbes, can be had from reading the works of the great English historian and political philosopher, Michael Oakeshott.

                      I do not for a moment suggest that there are no points of legitimate controversy in my own interpretation of this impeachment contest. Unsurprisingly, libertarian-oriented objections have touched on none of them.

                      Libertarian critique of American government and current events always suffers from the general inattention libertarians give to history, and to any political theory which is not their own. Compared to the entire historical record, and centuries of work in political philosophy, libertarian theory is thin. Compared even to just Federalist 10, libertarian theory is thin. Compared even to a better-class high school history curriculum, libertarian theory is thin.

                      So there you are, libertarians, confronted by centuries-old, bog-standard political theory, and utterly befuddled. Show me I am wrong. Give me some cogent answers to the questions above. There are some available. Do you know them?

                    4. Brett Bellmore
                      October.15.2019 at 7:39 am

                      “The premise we must all be working from now, is that President Trump, by refusing all cooperation with the House on impeachment,”

                      But he hasn’t. Explicitly, he’s said, “If you want cooperation, hold a vote, and open a formal investigation.”

                      That’s not refusing all cooperation, it’s stating his conditions for cooperating, and they’re perfectly reasonable conditions.

                    5. Brett Bellmore
                      October.15.2019 at 8:15 am

                      Armchair:

                      The People are the sovereign that created the Constitution, which then delegates, but only partially, and with explicit limits, the exercise of that sovereign power. I guess that’s what he’s getting at, before he starts going off the rails.

                      Where he goes off the rails is by treating that “sole power” to impeach as somehow obviating the “only partially, and with explicit limits” bit. and allowing the House to directly exercise that delegated sovereignty without any limits.

                      Where all it actually means is that the Senate can’t impeach.

                    6. Armchair Lawyer
                      October.15.2019 at 6:21 pm

                      Brett,

                      Yeah, I get the fact that Sovereign power is in the hands of the People in an American democracy (as opposed to the hands of the king in the monarchies of Europe at the time tit was written).
                      And that power is delegated to the Representatives, Senators, Judges and President for governance, under strict conditions, with strict limitations built in (IE the “Constitution”). Specifically built in so the people the power was delegated to couldn’t abuse it.

                      Lathrop’s writing off of all those limitations…and wordplay…it was off the wall.

                    7. Michael Ejercito
                      October.16.2019 at 12:32 am

                      The difference between the adversaries is that at least for now, at the outset, the People come armed with constitutive power, and the ability which they always have to act at pleasure in defense of their sovereignty. And they are not just armed, but forearmed, because they wield the “sole power” of impeachment, a constitutive power which they delegated in the Constitution to the House, to meet a crisis exactly such as this one. Make no mistake, that is sovereign power the House can wield, if it will, not constrained power of the usual sort with which the House operates.

                      The power of impeachment does not include the power to freeze bank accounts, nor the power to imprison people without recourse to the judicial system.

                  2. James Pollock
                    October.16.2019 at 1:05 pm

                    “Why can’t he just take every Democrat in Congress and throw them in prison, then do what he wants. What prevents him from doing this, from a legal perspective.”

                    This is two entirely different questions.
                    The answer to the first is that he doesn’t have the unconditional support of all the members of the government. There would be substantial resistance from below if such an attempt were made. The answer to the second is that Congress has legislative immunity. Which means nothing at all without the first.

              3. Krayt
                October.15.2019 at 12:44 am

                It’s vomitously sickening people are running with the idea “impeachment” means can investigate anything, root through any papers, at will, and now jail people at whim for disobedience.

                Get out of this country, dictators. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you’re a dictator.

                1. Stephen Lathrop
                  October.15.2019 at 5:27 am

                  It is a shame to have to tell you this, Krayt, but dictatorial power and legitimate political power come from the same source, which is pure force. The trick in distinguishing those powers is to be found only in what is done with them after getting them from the source. Too bad it can’t be nicer, but it isn’t.

                2. Sarcastr0
                  October.15.2019 at 10:11 am

                  You think the real dictator is the Congressional investigations?

                  Elected officials following procedures laid out by their votes and tradition with powers ratified by the judiciary is not a dictatorship.

                  Calling everything you don’t like a disgusting national outrage is right out of the dictatorship playbook however.

                  1. Michael Ejercito
                    October.16.2019 at 12:22 pm

                    Here is what Stephen Lathrop claimed that the House can do.

                    Pursuant to its impeachment inquiry, the House could monitor disbursements from the treasury, with an eye to finding any for purposes which had not been expressly appropriated. Government officers who authorized such expenditures could be subpoenaed, and held in contempt for those authorizations. They could be imprisoned by the House, without recourse to the justice system. They could be fined. Their paychecks could be garnished and their bank accounts frozen. Liens could be put on their real estate. All of that could happen alike to every Trump administration official who defied a subpoena, failed to produce documents, or lied to investigators.

                    1. James Pollock
                      October.16.2019 at 1:16 pm

                      And he is wrong, because, just as Trump lacks the unconditional support of the government, so does Pelosi. Attempting to freeze bank accounts and imprison people would be rejected by a substantial portion of the staff called upon to carry out these tasks.

                      Now, on the other hand, what the Trumpeteers and Resistance alike both forget is that there will be a time when Mr. Trump is not President, and does not direct the Executive offices of the nation. At such a time, subpeonas may issue (from Executive offices), prosecutions for failure to produce documents, or lying to investigators may follow.
                      There is a history of people just taking over the reins of power NOT grinding down on the people who just put the reins of power down. They do this because they know that there will be a time when they will be former officers of the United States, as well. Nixon would have been a strong candidate to see this policy end, but Ford thought it better to continue it, even though doing so angered a substantial part of the American public, including some of his own party. I strongly suspect that Mr. Trump can expect investigations into his business dealings to occur on a heightened frequency as soon as President Next takes the oath of office, and investigation of his actions as President to be extensive, if he is still alive the next time a Democrat takes over the office. Whether or not anyone will still care is an open question.

              4. James Pollock
                October.16.2019 at 1:00 pm

                ““Imprisoning people without recourse to the judicial system….” It violates the 5th Amendment.”

                No, it doesn’t. Point to where “recourse to the judicial system” is in the text of the 5th amendment.

                You have a better case with the sixth… he gets a “speedy” trial, with an impartial jury. But people can be held before trial.

                The Seventh is completely immaterial.

                The Ninth does not appear to contain anything relevant, either. Perhaps you’d like to cite something in conjunction with the Ninth, establishing your point?

                (This is an interesting thought experiment.)

            2. Atlas_Shrugged
              October.15.2019 at 6:16 am

              Prof Lathrop…I think your premise is wrong. Here is why.

              What do you suppose, “sole power,” means? Unless it means no one else gets to interfere, it is meaningless. “No one else,” includes your, “law enforcement official or judge.” They get no legitimate say in impeachments.

              Were this the case, then why is the Chief Justice the presiding officer in a Senate trial? He can, and has, made legal rulings in past impeachment proceedings.

              Personally, I think the the vote should be called. Immediately.

              Your other points about just jailing uncooperative witnesses, garnishing paychecks, putting liens on real estate are just surreal. You are a law professor, are you not?

              1. Michael Ejercito
                October.16.2019 at 12:23 pm

                Your other points about just jailing uncooperative witnesses, garnishing paychecks, putting liens on real estate are just surreal. You are a law professor, are you not?

                Probably a law professor of Soviet law or Nazi law.

              2. James Pollock
                October.16.2019 at 4:25 pm

                “Were this the case, then why is the Chief Justice the presiding officer in a Senate trial?”

                The House has the sole power of impeachment, not the sole power of deciding the rules of the subsequent trial that doesn’t even involve them.

    2. Bob from Ohio
      October.14.2019 at 10:16 am

      “They could be fined. Their paychecks could be garnished and their bank accounts frozen. Liens could be put on their real estate. All of that could happen alike to every Trump administration official who defied a subpoena, failed to produce documents, or lied to investigators.”

      You are increasingly insane.

      1. RestoreWesternHegemony
        October.14.2019 at 8:42 pm

        Now you see why I support a military coup led by someone like Pinochet who will crush these people.

    3. Brett Bellmore
      October.14.2019 at 10:23 am

      As a theoretical matter, yes, Trump could lose in the Senate.

      As a practical matter, if they don’t have a case that’s good enough to even risk holding a vote in the House, they’re not going to convict in the Senate. Particularly since it never even reaches the Senate without a vote in the house.

      1. mad_kalak
        October.14.2019 at 10:58 am

        Victor Davis Hanson has a very cogent essay out today that the goal, 13 months before an election, isn’t necessarily to remove Trump. They know that is nigh on impossible, but their goal is to depress his poll numbers. Imagine if this mess did end up in the Senate, and the Dems were able to peel off Susan Collins and Romney and Sasse, and they had 51 to impeach. Not enough to convict, sure, but we’d hear about “majority vote” ad nauseam like we did the the popular vote. It also would look pretty crappy, regardless if it wasn’t enough to convict.

        1. Brett Bellmore
          October.14.2019 at 11:26 am

          Well, sure. You can view the last three years as nothing but a series of experiments in depressing his polling numbers; What does it take, how long before the rebound?

          With the aim of getting it down to a science in time for hitting him one last time a couple days before the election, with some BS thing that will fall apart in a few days, but push his numbers down just enough that he loses.

          1. NToJ
            October.14.2019 at 12:28 pm

            Those calculating Democrats! They planted Joe Biden in the race knowing that the President would be incapable of restraining himself on a phone call with the incoming Ukrainian leader. They also convinced the President that the DNC servers were in Ukraine all along, just so he’d be dumb enough to ask about it in exchange for military aid that they had cleverly authorized just to entrap our leader. His twitter account is just a deep state parody.

          2. Formerly Known as Stash
            October.14.2019 at 4:15 pm

            Benghazi!!!! Goose, gander. Heat. Kitchen. No? A bit late to object to partisan hearings and attacks. As a longtime supporter of divided government, it seems to me that the whole point of the 2-party system (not to mention separation of powers) is to keep the other side honest, which is a ginormous job with this administration.
            In short, opposition ready to pounce on any misdeed is a feature, not a bug. And, as far as I can tell, nothing to date has “fallen apart” as B.S. “in a few days.” Remind me.

            1. Krayt
              October.15.2019 at 12:52 am

              As a libertarian, divided government ground to a standstill is a good thing, if for no other reason than it gives business some confidence in stability of laws, needed for planning big investments that take years to come to fruition.

              By that metric, the Trump presidency, largely fought to a standstill by the Democrats, is a wild success.

              1. Formerly Known as Stash
                October.16.2019 at 5:33 pm

                Only if you don’t count tariff, trade and sanction uncertainty, regulatory uncertainty and budget diversions.

              2. James Pollock
                October.16.2019 at 5:39 pm

                Business isn’t a conglomerate entity (yet). What’s best for business is an occasional shift that hammers the big and static businesses but allows new opportunities for nimble and agile replacements. IBM ruled the first 8 years of the PC industry, then Microsoft had a turn, and then Intel. The PC industry has had the most rapid advancement. The original PC ran at 4.77 MHz, supported up to 1 megabyte of memory, and had a hard disk capacity of 0 bytes. What other industry offers literally thousands of times the performance of products available 40 years ago?

                The Trump Presidency is brought to a standstill largely by the fact that Trump runs it like one of his businesses.

          3. Atlas_Shrugged
            October.15.2019 at 7:57 am

            Brett….This is a worrisome recent (in the last two decades) development – the anonymously sourced story, proven to be false [although that happens post-election], coming out no later than the Thursday before the election – and reported simultaneously in several press outlets. The amazing coincidence, and it is truly amazing, is that it seems to happen to Team R [Dan Rather – Bush, The Dossier – Trump] every election. These demonstrably false stories are designed to swing the election.

            It is one thing to report the news aggressively. I am good with that. It is quite another to print false stories with the intent of swinging an election. To me, that crosses the line.

            This is what will do in impeachment; people will see it for what it is. And the ultimate check on impeachment is the ballot box. Personally, I think the electorate will get pissed off with this ongoing Political Chinese Water Torture [the impeachment effort] and express their displeasure at the Ballot Box. People put up with bullshit for just so long and then get pissed off. We are just about at that point. The Progtards will be pissed they didn’t remove POTUS Trump from office, tar & feather him, and boil his supporters in oil. People who support POTUS Trump probably have a siege mentality by now, and they will show up to vote.

            This election is going to be an unholy mess. Hopefully the people will actually get to decide the question.

            1. James Pollock
              October.16.2019 at 9:02 pm

              “This is a worrisome recent (in the last two decades) development”

              It’s not that recent. A hundred years ago, there was “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”. The peak was around that time… every faction in every city had their own newspaper to push the narrative preferred by each faction.

              ” it seems to happen to Team R [Dan Rather – Bush, The Dossier – Trump] every election.”

              If it ONLY happened to Team R, you’d have a point. But it doesn’t. You might recall a certain kerfuffle over the birth certificate of one B. Obama, or claims that Hillary Clinton was part of a pedophile ring that met in the basement of a pizza restaurant.

        2. Stephen Lathrop
          October.14.2019 at 12:56 pm

          mad_kalak, it goes far beyond what you say. With an actual majority in the Senate for a real trial, the ability to dictate the rules would pass to the Democrats. After that, every item on a bill of impeachment could be examined in full, in public. McConnell could block nothing.

          The Russia conspiracy counts could come back full strength, with new evidence putting Trump in jeopardy of removal, and his cronies in jeopardy of prison. With new evidence already showing money laundered from Russia going to the campaigns of Trump and at least the Governor of Florida, the obstruction counts would be revived in force.

          Seeing all that, the barrier wall of Trump enablers in his administration would crumble. Available evidence would overflow investigators’ ability to make use of it all. The Senate could subpoena Trump to testify, as it did Clinton. Clinton showed up. Trump would not dare.

          After such a dramatic spectacle of incrimination, with all of it on tape ready for campaign ad deployment, who would suppose Trump would not be removed? Only someone who continued to believe all that evidence would actually exonerate Trump. Even now, I doubt there are 10 Republicans in the Senate who think that. It is unlikely there would ever be a final vote. As with Nixon, Senate Republicans would take the case to Trump, and he would resign.

          So for now, Republicans’ certainty of keeping Trump in office is already balanced on the thinnest of fulcrums. It all depends on preventing the defection of probably fewer than 5 Senators—and not on any initial defection to favor removal, but only to favor a full trial. Trump’s presidency would not survive a full trial in the Senate. Given the likelihood of a few Republican Senators going over to vote with Democrats for a real trial, I suggest the probability of Trump completing his term has already sunk below 50%.

          1. MatthewSlyfield
            October.14.2019 at 1:43 pm

            “With an actual majority in the Senate for a real trial, the ability to dictate the rules would pass to the Democrats. After that, every item on a bill of impeachment could be examined in full, in public. McConnell could block nothing.”

            On the other hand, if Trump wins re-election in 2020 in spite of the never ending impeachment inquiries in the House, I would sat the odds favor Republicans holding the Senate.

            By the time the Democrats have a Senate majority impeachment will be a moot issue.

            1. Atlas_Shrugged
              October.15.2019 at 6:18 am

              I am not so certain about Team R retaining the Senate in 2020. They are defending an awful lot of seats. And Team R was absolutely incompetent in 2018 when Team D was defending over 20 Senate seats, picking up exactly 2 seats. What a whiff.

              1. Brett Bellmore
                October.15.2019 at 7:34 am

                I’m not so sure the Republican leadership WANT to retain control of the Senate. Being in the majority carries extra responsibilities, and results in your voters asking why you aren’t accomplishing things. The voters may even figure out that your campaign promises were mostly lies.

                In the minority you get less graft, but there’s a lot less work, too, and you’re never lacking for a plausible excuse for failing to accomplish what you claimed to want to do.

                1. Smooth Like a Rhapsody
                  October.15.2019 at 8:41 am

                  Except you need the Senate to confirm judges.

                  1. James Pollock
                    October.16.2019 at 5:30 pm

                    You only need 41 Senators to NOT confirm judges.

          2. mad_kalak
            October.14.2019 at 1:49 pm

            A lot of “possibly” and “if/thens” without an good comparison in your scenario Lathrop. It reads like a pre-game analysis for an NFL game.

            1. Bob from Ohio
              October.14.2019 at 4:01 pm

              GOP senators want to stay senators. Voting to convict would trigger brutal primary challenges that would threaten their re-election even if they survived the primary.

              Does no one remember the “Tea Party” senate challenges of 2010-2012? The 2020-2022 ones would be far, far worse.

              He’s delusional, no sense in debating him.

            2. Stephen Lathrop
              October.15.2019 at 6:08 am

              mad_kalak, which is why the smart money bets the Patriots. In the great football game of politics, if you want a similar bet, pick the sovereign People over Donald Trump. That is like betting the Patriots. Against the Jets. At Gillette Stadium.

              Do it that way, and you may lose anyway. But not often.

              1. Michael Ejercito
                October.16.2019 at 12:36 pm

                Which sovereign People would that be?

      2. Stephen Lathrop
        October.14.2019 at 7:51 pm

        Brett, do you actually believe House leaders are not holding a vote because they suppose they could not win it? Really?

      3. David Nieporent
        October.15.2019 at 10:40 am

        I do admire how you have managed to convince yourself that, despite polls showing either a plurality or majority of Americans support impeachment and removal, that House Democrats are somehow _afraid_ to hold a vote. Let me assure you that they are not.

      4. James Pollock
        October.16.2019 at 4:34 pm

        “As a practical matter, if they don’t have a case that’s good enough to even risk holding a vote in the House, they’re not going to convict in the Senate.”

        A successful impeachment is better for R’s than it is for D’s. The D’s know this. From the D perspective, Trump is doing a great job for the D’s right where he is…

    4. Armchair Lawyer
      October.14.2019 at 10:40 am

      Sorry, are you proposing that Congress “defund” an investigation into Russian corruption, because they don’t like the politics? And long standing legal offices within the White House? Because it doesn’t like the politics? Are you proposing the as a unilateral single party, the House alone, as a bare majority, they do this?

      That’s insane.

      1. Stephen Lathrop
        October.16.2019 at 3:09 am

        Armchair, don’t like the power of the purse? That does not make it any less powerful. By the way, you will find no shortage of sources in the historical record to show founders discussing use of the power of the purse to coerce from the executive just about any outcome at all. One dictum: if the President will not do what the Congress requires, he will find that he has money to do little else.

        More generally, from you and others, I get objections to forceful action by the House. The authority and logic against my suggestions, in their entirety, have been, “That’s insane.” Not persuasive, even after repetition.

        But by implication, more sophisticated reasoning can be discerned. It goes like this: Forceful action by the House could enable impeachment. There must be some way to stop impeachment, or checks and balances, or separation of powers, or something, would be infringed. Hence, forceful action by the House is right out.

        Have I got it right? If so, let’s test alternative reasoning. Start with the premise that the founders intended impeachment to be possible, useful, and a principal constraint on executive abuse. With that premise in mind, say what you suppose the founders would do. Would they hedge impeachment around with restrictions, to make it fail? Or would they authorize powers necessary and proper to make it succeed? As a general model for your reasoning, I call your attention to Marshall’s dictum about the Necessary and Proper clause, that it is an expansion of the powers of Congress, not a restriction on them.

        So, the Necessary and Proper clause, is it insane? Spoiler: I expect you to argue it is at least bad, and ought to be struck down, or that Marshall got it wrong, or that it is inapplicable to impeachments, or something. Am I right?

      2. James Pollock
        October.16.2019 at 4:38 pm

        “Are you proposing the as a unilateral single party, the House alone, as a bare majority, they do this?”

        CAN they do this? Sure. They just don’t pass any spending bills that authorize spending money they object to.
        (and amend any Senate bills that happen to do so before sending them back into conference.)
        SHOULD they do this? that’s a different question

    5. Sam Gompers
      October.14.2019 at 4:37 pm

      The Democrats in the FBI and DOJ have been spying on Trump for years and haven’t found anything.

      He’s as clean as a whistle. That’s why the Democrats have to keep lying about what Trump says and does.

      1. Jason Cavanaugh
        October.14.2019 at 7:26 pm

        Take your partisan bullshit and spew it somewhere else.

        Trump is under multiple investigations for multiple reasons, and once he’s no longer President, he WILL be prosecuted.

        Your delusions don’t matter.

        1. KevinP
          October.14.2019 at 9:24 pm

          LOL. The Self Awareness Award goes to Jason Cavanaugh!

        2. Brett Bellmore
          October.15.2019 at 7:28 am

          That’s right, once he’s no longer President, he WILL be prosecuted, even if they don’t have probable cause on anything.

          Just to punish him for daring to win that election.

          Democrats are leading our country to a very dark and ugly place.

          1. Sarcastr0
            October.15.2019 at 10:13 am

            Your the one talking about Camp of Saints being prophetic.

            The right are the ones on this blog who bring up political violence in threads about impeachment, pronouns, plastic straws….

          2. Jason Cavanaugh
            October.16.2019 at 4:01 am

            He’s already un-indicted co-conspirator #1 for at least one Felony.

            How many other criminal investigations is he the target of, and how many of those do you think will turn up enough probable cause to charge him?

            If you’re defending Trump, you’re just as big of a piece of shit as he is, and you clearly don’t give two fucks about the Constitution.

            1. Michael Ejercito
              October.16.2019 at 12:40 pm

              He’s already un-indicted co-conspirator #1 for at least one Felony.

              Which Felony would that be?

              1. Jason Cavanaugh
                October.16.2019 at 1:19 pm

                What’s the matter, 2018 too far back for you to keep track of Trump’s crimes?

                Or are you just another Trumptard fuckwad pretending that he’s done nothing wrong?

          3. James Pollock
            October.17.2019 at 8:54 am

            “That’s right, once he’s no longer President, he WILL be prosecuted, even if they don’t have probable cause on anything.”

            He goes on television and confesses. Then his lawyer trots around to news programs and confesses again, and to more different things. In Trump’s case, it’s because he thinks he can lie about things he doesn’t really understand. Not sure about why the G-Man does what he does.

      2. Stephen Lathrop
        October.14.2019 at 7:52 pm

        And especially for what he says and does on TV!

  6. Bruce Hayden
    October.14.2019 at 11:00 am

    Sorry. Don’t buy it. You seem to be buying into the Lawfare type merging of Congress’ Article I, Section 1 Oversight power with their Article I, Section 2 Impeachment power, that we have been seeing in the “subpoenas” that House committees have been sending out recently. They wave their hands about this being an Impeachment investigation, then cite to their Oversight authority. The President, and much of his White House, are not subject to Congressional Oversight, since his power was not created by Congressional legislation, but has equal standing to theirs, being set out in Article II. Constitutional powers do not merge, as seems to be the theory here. They have a choice: investigate as Oversight, or as Impeachment. But there is no such thing as impeachment oversight or oversight impeachment. Separate Article I sections.

    The question then is how far should the courts follow the Nixon impeachment precedent overcoming Executive Privilege, with currently constituted impeachment investigation or inquiry. And I strongly believe that the answer is not very far. In the case of Nixon, the impeachment inquiry had the bipartisan approval of over half of the House, on a roll call vote. In this case, it was initiated by fiat, by one person, the Speaker. Her legitimacy is based on a majority vote of her caucus, with the minority (Republicans) having no say whatsoever, making bipartisan support for impeachment impossible. Allowing this by the courts would be horrible precedent, since it would, essentially, allow the Speaker to override Executive Privilege assertions by the Executive in response to oversight requests, at will, by merely the recitation of one word, lImpeachment”. Effectively gutting Separation of Powers here.

    1. Alpheus W Drinkwater
      October.14.2019 at 11:53 am

      You are simply restating Judge Rao’s dissent in Trump v Mazars. We’ll see if it or the majority opinion holds up down the line.

    2. Stephen Lathrop
      October.14.2019 at 1:24 pm

      Bruce, this has nothing at all to do with oversight, and everything to do with the impeachment power—which is no more subject to constraint than the President’s pardon power, or the power of Congress to declare war.

      The impeachment power is a special case, in which the sovereign decreed to the House an ability to borrow the sovereign’s own more-imposing power for the limited purpose of impeachment. The notion of separation of powers cannot prevail against that. During an impeachment, there is no impairment of separation of powers with regard to the executive’s unique powers. They continue as always. The House does not take over any of them. Except that none of the executive’s powers can be used to frustrate impeachment. In that narrow respect, the House acts with sovereign power, not with limited power. In that narrow respect, gutting separation of powers is exactly what the impeachment power intends.

      Even if you find that argument unpersuasive, you will remain at a loss. The Constitution is unequivocal. It says “sole power” on impeachment belongs to the House. That means no other party is legitimately available to interfere—not the President, not the Senate, not the Court.

      1. Toranth
        October.14.2019 at 4:28 pm

        Except the House has not voted to impeach.
        If the impeachment power gives the House unlimited authority over the Executive because it might vote to impeach, then the separation of powers becomes a joke – because at any time in the future, the House might vote to impeach, therefor everything they do might impact that decision.

        The “Sole Power” rule states that no other body but the House can decide to impeach, but it does not say anything about investigations.

        1. Alpheus W Drinkwater
          October.14.2019 at 6:04 pm

          There is perhaps an amount of oversight authority over the executive between unlimited and none that would be appropriate. I’m not sure the executive should have the power to ignore all oversight from Congress, regardless of whether it’s just plain ol’ oversight, or a formal impeachment inquiry, or an informal one, whatever that means.

        2. Stephen Lathrop
          October.14.2019 at 7:59 pm

          Toranth, one aspect of the unusual power conferred by the sole power clauses is that while the power is increased, so too is political accountability. By stripping away every vestige of collaboration among government divisions, a sole power clause makes the political accountability of whoever exercises it especial stark and inescapable. The frivolous use of the impeachment power you describe would quickly prove politically ruinous for whomever tried it.

          1. Krayt
            October.15.2019 at 12:59 am

            You mean a handful of leaders from deeply blue districts are at risk of blowback, while members from the most lightly of purple districts are safe from going on record?

            No, that can’t be right, if you are justifying the safety of unlimited investigative power by the risk of voter fury.

      2. Michael Ejercito
        October.16.2019 at 12:46 pm

        Bruce, this has nothing at all to do with oversight, and everything to do with the impeachment power—which is no more subject to constraint than the President’s pardon power, or the power of Congress to declare war.

        the House can only impeach executive and judicial officials. The House can not impeach a Senator, nor can the House impeach state officials.

        In that narrow respect, the House acts with sovereign power, not with limited power. In that narrow respect, gutting separation of powers is exactly what the impeachment power intends.

        the House only exercises the power to impeach.

        It has no power to imprison people without judicial recourse.

        It has no power to garnish paychecks.

        It has no power to place liens on real estate.

    3. Voize of Reazon
      October.14.2019 at 5:37 pm

      Bruce, I don’t understand your reference to “the Nixon impeachment precedent overcoming Executive Privilege”. The subpoena at issue in the Nixon case was obtained by special prosecutor Leon Jaworski pursuing a criminal investigation of the Watergate break-in, not issued by the House in an impeachment inquiry, so the state of their inquiry or investigation wasn’t part of the calculus.

      1. Brett Bellmore
        October.15.2019 at 7:25 am

        I think you understand: He was relating the legal myth, as though it were fact.

        It’s been spread around so much he probably didn’t even realize he was spreading misinformation.

    4. David Nieporent
      October.15.2019 at 10:45 am

      They have a choice: investigate as Oversight, or as Impeachment. But there is no such thing as impeachment oversight or oversight impeachment. Separate Article I sections.

      Both Lathrop and you Trumpkins seem to think “impeachment” is a magic word. Trumpkins think that without 218 people chanting the word three times while looking in a mirror, the House doesn’t have powers to investigate the president, while Lathrop thinks that intoning the word gives the House the power to do anything it feels like.

      1. Stephen Lathrop
        October.16.2019 at 3:36 am

        Not my view, Nieporent. Not, “anything the House feels like.” Just whatever is necessary and proper to exercise the impeachment power. Regardless of details, structural arguments, or who shot John, the Executive does not have, and cannot have, a negative on impeachment.

        My view: If Trump would cooperate and turn over documents and produce witnesses, then forceful action by the House would not be necessary, and would be inappropriate. If Trump does what he has done, and defies the House, then it is within the power (and is also a duty) of the House to do what it must to make the impeachment power work as intended.

        It could never have been the intention of the founders to structure government in a way that turned impeachment into a nullity. The test of what the House can do is whatever it minimally must do to make impeachment work. The test of what makes impeachment work is whether the process provides the House with all the evidence it wishes to see that bears on charging high crimes and misdemeanors. And, additionally, the test is whether the House has been provided with commensurate process to make a political case in favor of impeachment, or fail in the attempt because pertinent evidence does not support the case.

        1. Michael Ejercito
          October.16.2019 at 12:47 pm

          Not my view, Nieporent. Not, “anything the House feels like.” Just whatever is necessary and proper to exercise the impeachment power. Regardless of details, structural arguments, or who shot John, the Executive does not have, and cannot have, a negative on impeachment.

          Imprisoning people without judicial recourse is not a necessary and proper power.

          Nor is placing liens on real estate.

          Nor is garnishing paychecks.

        2. James Pollock
          October.16.2019 at 4:43 pm

          “My view: If Trump would cooperate and turn over documents and produce witnesses, then forceful action by the House would not be necessary”

          If Trump withholds cooperation, he looks guilty.
          If he actually turns over documents and allows witnesses to testify, he can be PROVEN guilty. Which to choose?

      2. Formerly Known as Stash
        October.16.2019 at 3:57 pm

        All these comments do not address the power of the Speaker. As I noted above, House Rule XII empowers the Speaker to refer a “matter” to one or more committees whose jurisdiction is “related” to the question. The Speaker referred the matter to three House Committees with two to report to the third. No House vote is required to refer a matter to committee, excepting investigation of a member. Since no such rule exists with respect to impeachment, the “matter” of impeachment has been assigned to the respective committees in accordance with House Rules. As the referral power has been duly delegated to the Speaker, no further action is required. I do note that a referral by the Speaker may be over-ridden by the full House. So, the House’s failure to do so is a ratification of the Speaker’s action. In other words, the argument is backwards. Unless the House votes to stop the investigation, it is fully authorized.

  7. NToJ
    October.14.2019 at 11:08 am

    “In the case of Nixon, the impeachment inquiry had the bipartisan approval of over half of the House, on a roll call vote.”

    Not really. The impeachment inquiry began with the Judiciary Committee’s party-line vote 21-17 establishing an impeachment inquiry. That was followed months’ later by a full vote, but public pressure was already turning against President Nixon by February roll call vote.

  8. M L
    October.14.2019 at 11:28 am

    We’re in a permanent coup

    by Matt Taibbi

    https://taibbi.substack.com/p/were-in-a-permanent-coup

    1. NToJ
      October.14.2019 at 11:54 am

      The last paragraph reminds me of the Onion article about former Vice President Cheney threatening to personally attack America if Kerry won.

      1. Krayt
        October.14.2019 at 12:28 pm

        It’s a favorite disasterbation scenario regardless of party. Bill Moyer also made a similar statement about Bush, Sr. I think, emphasing he was being serious in his concern.

  9. Krayt
    October.14.2019 at 12:32 pm

    Pelosi’s House seems to have lost much of its leverage over the Trump administration. The president seems to be assuming that he will inevitably be impeached and that there is no legislative policy agenda to be advanced, and so he has nothing more to lose by refusing to cooperate further with the House. He is now positioning himself for the Senate trial and the electoral campaign.

    A rare bit of decent analysis in a sea of talking points intended to leaf people to think something.

    1. Krayt
      October.14.2019 at 12:47 pm

      Lead

    2. David Nieporent
      October.15.2019 at 10:47 am

      Wait, someone who wrote an essay on a topic was intending to lead people to think something about that topic?

      *gasp*

  10. Jimmy the Dane
    October.14.2019 at 8:40 pm

    Seeing the House is conducting a secret investigation and is kicking out members of the minority party I don’t see why any sane administration would work with them.

    1. David Nieporent
      October.14.2019 at 10:20 pm

      Members of the minority party were not kicked out; they were present. Some random Republican who wandered in off the street was kicked out in accordance with House rules.

      1. Brett Bellmore
        October.15.2019 at 5:31 am

        The “random Republican” was from the Judiciary committee, the committee normally tasked with investigating possible impeachments.

        IOW, they’re not only not doing this by the book, they’re making sure the people who actually have jurisdiction over this subject are kept in the dark.

        1. David Nieporent
          October.15.2019 at 9:27 am

          IOW, they’re not only not doing this by the book, they’re making sure the people who actually have jurisdiction over this subject are kept in the dark.

          Those are indeed “other words.” But not remotely correct ones. There is no such “book” or “jurisdiction.”

        2. Sarcastr0
          October.15.2019 at 10:14 am

          Brett it sounds like your book is coming more out of your hat. The Parlementatian agrees with the Dems.

        3. NToJ
          October.15.2019 at 4:57 pm

          “IOW, they’re not only not doing this by the book, they’re making sure the people who actually have jurisdiction over this subject are kept in the dark.”

          Although the Intelligence Committee is under no obligation to allow Judiciary Committee members to attend Fiona Hill’s testimony, John Ratcliffe can report directly, since he serves as a minority member on both.

      2. iowantwo
        October.15.2019 at 10:41 pm

        Explain.
        Was the random minority kicked out of the impeachment inquiry hearing? A hearing where those congressmen that are part of the impeachment inquiry committees were present?
        I know, because I saw it on TV, when Pelosi, and Nadler announced they were opening impeachment inquiry. Nadler is chair of the Judiciary committee. Nadler announced the impeachment was on. The Republican denied access sits on the Judiciary. The judiciary is in on the Impeachment. According to press conference, and that’s how the House is running the impeachment.
        Also, the Republicans have put in a request to the House Parliamentarian, for the rules governing the impeachment. The Parliamentarian has failed to produce any rules.

        1. Sarcastr0
          October.16.2019 at 5:10 am

          The rules governing this multipronged investigatory style under were passed by the GOP in the Benghazi days.

          1. iowantwo
            October.16.2019 at 9:04 am

            Multi pronged? So it is NOT an impeachment inquriy. Got it

            1. Sarcastr0
              October.16.2019 at 5:06 pm

              Impeachment can be multipronged. See Nixon’s draft articles of impeachment for an example.

            2. James Pollock
              October.16.2019 at 9:07 pm

              “Multi pronged? So it is NOT an impeachment inquriy.”

              Today, iowantoo learned that a President can be impeached on multiple charges.

              Well, could have learned, anyway.

  11. M L
    October.15.2019 at 8:40 pm

    Attorneys for General Flynn have filed for supposedly exculpatory evidence that was only recently obtained by the DOJ: cell phones used by JOSEPH MISFUD as part of an effort by western intelligence agents to manufacture “connections” to Russians.

    https://twitter.com/Techno_Fog/status/1184211806174081024

    Perhaps this was obtained by Bill Barr on his recent trip to Italy.

    Hopefully, this means Brennan, Clapper, impeachment, the Democrats, etc are all soon to be DONE HERE. Maybe Obama too?

    1. Sarcastr0
      October.16.2019 at 5:12 am

      Dude, this is basically QAnon adjacent at this point.

  12. iowantwo
    October.15.2019 at 10:24 pm

    The “what if” game is in full swing. Ignoring an IG report about to drop explaining abuse of the FISA warrants to spy on a political campaign. Not to mention the illegal 702 lookups the FBI and CIA are abusing. Abusing to the tune of more that 80% of all looks are illegal. Per the conclusion of 2 separate judges investigations.

    Then the ever expanding investigation by Durham. Expanding because he keeps turning over rocks and finding corrupt CIA, FBI, State Dept, and DoJ activities. All of this coming to the publics knowledge. Competing with an impeachment sourced from an anonymous source, that cant be interviewed, and testimony taken in secret.

    1. Sarcastr0
      October.16.2019 at 5:14 am

      Your angry hopes keep having to top themselves to explain why you have to keep waiting for satisfaction.

      At this point, everyone is in on the conspiracy, which as totally been proven, and the Storm is Coming.

      1. donojack
        October.16.2019 at 8:51 am

        I seem to remember when people were complaining about how long the Mueller investigation was dragging on you got your lecture finger wagging and told us that these things take a lot of time.

        I don’t know what will come of Barr’s and Durham’s investigations but I am certain that your show won’t be the only one in town. The IG report will probably come out next week so that may be the first salvo.

        1. iowantwo
          October.16.2019 at 9:09 am

          The difference between Durham and Mueller, is Mueller had nothing to investigate. The FBI/Intell had already investigating the political campaign of Trump for 2 years by the time they handed all the evidence over to Mueller. As we now know Zero evidence.
          Evidence of spying on a political campaign by the Obama administration is clear and evident. No predicate for the spying is non-existant

          Evidence of crime is clear.

          1. donojack
            October.16.2019 at 9:29 am

            Agreed. Mueller knew in the first week that there was no collusion but dragged it out to keep the hoax in the news and to try to goad Trump into doing something they could use against him. Almost worked.

            Sarcastro seems to be trying to convince himself that because there haven’t been any indictments yet that there won’t be any. McCabe first, then Bruce and Nellie Ohr maybe next. And so forth. There will be songbirds aplenty.

          2. Formerly Known as Stash
            October.16.2019 at 5:11 pm

            You forgot the investigators Trump sent to Hawaii that were going to prove birtherism. Doubtless that conspiracy theory will be proven as well! Hope springs eternal. Pizzagate, a faked Sandyhook shooting anything is possible if you really want to believe. Anonymous sources are not to be trusted unless it is Q-Anon or a Russian troll. Instead it must be posited that the entire FBI, CIA, NSA, military intelligence and State Department are dishonest and corrupt. Not one principled whistle-blower in any of these agencies willing to go to then Chairman Nunes to out the truth? A parade of Trump appointees testifying to Congress that the Russians interfered in the election on behalf of Trump–all lying because Putin says so. It goes without saying that NASA faked the moon landing, and Galileo was a liar. All you gotta do is want to believe.

            1. donojack
              October.16.2019 at 6:19 pm

              @Sarcastro
              Yes you did. And I’m not fantasizing I’m speculating. McCabe is a done deal. There are numerous crimes committed in the last three years or so that I know about, and you and FKS probably do too but you won’t admit it. Sort of like your Hunter Biden is just like the Kardashians. Now that’s some crazy.

              Anyway as I have said before this is a waiting period, a phony war if you will (that you hadn’t ever heard of btw). We will see as it all unfolds.

              1. Formerly Known as Stash
                October.16.2019 at 7:19 pm

                I know that McCabe was less than candid about his leaks that harmed the Clinton campaign, but I don’t see how that is any way connected to a conspiracy against Trump. As far as I can see, it was just used as a “gotcha” to go after him. Fine with me, but it is hardly evidence that the FBI and our intelligence services were out to get Trump. Nor does it seem to matter that Comey’s statements about Clinton probably blew the election for her–and that the first and ostensible reason Comey was fired, according Rod Rosenstein, was Comey’s damaging commentary on Clinton which was against FBI policy. Had Hilary won, he quite likely would have been gone for that reason. Don’t know how any of that translates into folks committing misconduct against Trump, but I understand that’s all you got, so you run with it.

            2. donojack
              October.16.2019 at 6:19 pm

              That’s some serious analysis there pal.

        2. Sarcastr0
          October.16.2019 at 5:11 pm

          I’m not saying this is crazy BS because it’s taking too long, I’m saying it’s crazy BS because it’s BS and it’s crazy.

          You know what I didn’t do during the Muller investigation? Fantasize about all the indictments that were totally coming down.

          1. donojack
            October.16.2019 at 7:31 pm

            Also I enjoy watching you progs go all in on the integrity and the patriotism and the transparency of the FBI, the CIA and the NSA. It’s hilarious watching you twist yourselves into pretzels to defend those you usually cast as boogey men.

            1. James Pollock
              October.16.2019 at 9:13 pm

              When you are disappointed, at whom will you direct the blame?

              1. donojack
                October.16.2019 at 10:32 pm

                That’s a fair point; I may well be disappointed and I have said as much in other threads. Institutional loyalty runs deep, sometimes deeper than patriotism or the desire for the truth to be revealed. As to the blame that won’t matter, but the damage to our republic will matter. Trump shrinks to insignificance compared to the abuse of power and the willingness to subvert our system of government. If you can’t see that then too bad but it is real.

                1. Sarcastr0
                  October.17.2019 at 2:48 pm

                  So if nothing occurs, it’s not that you were wrong it’s that things were even worse than you thought.

                  They call theories that reinforce themselves regardless of the input conspiracy theories.

            2. Sarcastr0
              October.16.2019 at 9:30 pm

              Weird change of subject. I’m no fan of the FBI. But that’s not the same as the idea that they are super-duper corrupt and colluding with the CIA, DoJ, and State to do the crimes.

              1. Stephen Lathrop
                October.16.2019 at 10:10 pm

                Also? Colluding with Obama, the Clinton campaign, the Mueller investigation, the FISA Court, some British guy, and Ukrainian politicians, to pin the blame on Russia (and hide the server).

                You can tell this is true, because there is so much of it.

                1. donojack
                  October.16.2019 at 10:35 pm

                  You can tell at least some of it is true because of the proof not because of the quantity.

                  1. James Pollock
                    October.17.2019 at 8:49 am

                    It feels right and it shifts the blame in the direction we like. Must be true!

Please to post comments

Today in Supreme Court History

Today in Supreme Court History: October 14, 1911

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10/14/1911: Justice John Marshall Harlan I dies.

Justice John Marshall Harlan I

"Let Us Restore to Social Intercourse …

that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things."

|

Not that I know how to arrange that, but it's as worthy a goal today as it was in 1801.

Eugene Volokh is the Gary T. Schwartz Distinguished Professor of Law at UCLA.

Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Report abuses.

  1. Jimmy the Dane
    October.13.2019 at 7:24 pm

    Probably the best way to start is getting rid of intolerant liberals who want to dictate their way of life and beliefs on everyone.

    1. Noscitur a sociis
      October.13.2019 at 7:29 pm

      And we’re off to a good start!

      1. Jimmy the Dane
        October.13.2019 at 7:42 pm

        Liberalism is not compatible with a liberty based society. The “my way or the highway”, “if you disagree with me and all my extremist beliefs then you are a racist, bigoted nazi” way thinking and acting just doesn’t work. Time to recognize that and throw the bums out.

        1. Alpheus W Drinkwater
          October.14.2019 at 3:05 pm

          It’s hard to determine whether you are deliberately being ironic or if you really don’t see the irony in your comment.

      2. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf
        October.13.2019 at 10:14 pm

        It’s crude, but not far off from reality.

        Individualism can allow socialists to simulate socialism with contracts. It won’t have the death camps and coercion and bloody single-mindedness of true socialism, but I wager it would satisfy 90% of them.

        The opposite is not true. Socialism can’t even tolerate individualism, let alone simulate it.

        1. Noscitur a sociis
          October.13.2019 at 10:23 pm

          I am confident that I am at least as stridently anti-collectivist as you are. And maybe the risks of collectivism are indeed so grave that Prof. Volokh’s is a hopeless naïf to invoke Jefferson here, and we instead ought to treat our ideological foes with the most incivility we can muster.

          If so, let’s come out and say it.

          1. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf
            October.13.2019 at 10:33 pm

            A free society has to tolerate those who despise freedom, or it isn’t a free society. I do not believe such tolerance has to be civil when those threatening me are not civil. After all, threatening to deprive someone of liberty is hardly a civil action to start with.

            1. Stephen Lathrop
              October.15.2019 at 12:34 pm

              So, perhaps I would say, “A mixed economy, including socialized healthcare, and more vigorous government constraints on the size of per-share-voting corporations seems to be what this nation needs now.”

              When I said that, was I “threatening” to deprive someone of “liberty?” Or was I civil?

      3. BrotherMovesOn
        October.14.2019 at 8:33 pm

        LOL!

    2. Eugene Volokh
      October.13.2019 at 11:59 pm

      If only this were ironic humor ….

      1. bernard11
        October.14.2019 at 10:28 am

        JtD’s attitude seems not uncommon on the right.

        1. bernard11
          October.14.2019 at 10:38 am

          Not at all uncommon.

    3. TwelveInchPianist
      October.14.2019 at 1:26 am

      Yup. Similarly, the way to end war is for all the good people to join together and kill all the bad people.

      1. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf
        October.14.2019 at 2:08 am

        And repeat, ad infinitum, until the last person standing commits suicide!

      2. donojack
        October.14.2019 at 7:22 am

        Seemed to work in WWII.

  2. Armchair Lawyer
    October.13.2019 at 7:30 pm

    I’ll agree with this sentiment about civility.

    Most recently, Ellen and George W were sharing a booth at a recent Cowboys game. OK, sure. No issue. Ellen did quite well in her commentary.

    But then later for the outrage on Twitter from the hard left that Ellen “dare” sit next to that evil conservative.

    1. Krayt
      October.13.2019 at 11:23 pm

      Business is so used to multipliers, as in each letter written by someone angry enough to do so represents thousands of people who weren’t quite so motivated.

      So along comes flash in the pan twitter outrage and that represents over three hundred trillion people.

      1. Armchair Lawyer
        October.14.2019 at 7:13 am

        Perhaps….

        One of the hallmarks of Twitter and e-mail is it makes responding so easy. Anger can be in the moment. Used to be, it would take work to write a letter and mail it. And that’s a higher bar.

  3. Eddy
    October.13.2019 at 7:48 pm

    Professor – no hat tip to Reason’s own video about the Adams/Jefferson campaign of 1800?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_zTN4BXvYI

  4. Stephen Lathrop
    October.13.2019 at 7:49 pm

    Given his commitment to free-speech fundamentalism, it seems peculiar that Professor Volokh would entertain civil discourse as a worthy goal. A norm for civil discourse will always come at some expense to the notion of absolute protection for uncivil speech.

    1. Eddy
      October.13.2019 at 8:00 pm

      My dear Mr. Lathrop, you’re obviously a great guy who gives careful consideration to issues, so let me ask whether you have been 100% fair to the strong free-speech position by slapping the “fundamentalist” label on it? Usually this term is, I regret to say, used as a dismissive devil-word.

      1. Stephen Lathrop
        October.13.2019 at 9:19 pm

        Eddy, good question. With regard to EV, I use the word advisedly, but not as a “dismissive devil-word.” Instead, I refer to the musty religious overtones the word also carries.

        In many of my comments criticizing EV’s speech threads, I have pointed to a tendency to cite long-ago, pre-internet precedents to support arguments about internet-related issues. Not infrequently, those come up in cases disputing issues which had never been seen until the internet, in effect, invented the issues and thrust them to the fore.

        Internet publishing has been an especially fertile area for cases of that sort. I have been urging EV to take note of changed circumstances which his commentary quite often seems to overlook.

        I admire EV’s depth of knowledge, reasoning skills, and clear writing. I suggest the nation could profit if he chose to use those to help guide the rapidly-evolving 4-cornered balance between internet speech freedom, defamation, censorship, and law.

        Instead, EV seems to insist again and again that the law of speech as it was circa 1980 is all the nation needs, or will ever need. Old-time religion, it seems to me. It looks destined to be overtaken by events, with results for the nation notably worse than if EV, and others with similar skills, had pitched in to improve the outcomes.

        1. Eddy
          October.13.2019 at 9:39 pm

          Ah, now I understand where you are coming from. Thank you for the perspective.

          (We all have to be on our best behavior on a thread about civility.)

        2. BadLib
          October.13.2019 at 10:06 pm

          Why would the internet require a different “balance” of free speech rights than high speed printing presses, radio, television, ham radio, telephone, CB radio, motor vehicles and planes (allowing much more mobility so people could speak over a much broader number of venues at a reasonable cost and in places they were not known and therefore subject to social snubbing), code-talkers, AOL, CompuServe, newsgroups, email, BBSs, or the telegraph did?

          The internet really doesn’t seem all that different from the others — except that the others now seem “normal” or obsolete. If in the future quantum computing allows communicating at nearly infinite speed/volume, 100% securely, anonymously, and without wires or radio waves, will that become the new bogeyman to justify restrictions on free speech for a generation that was born and raised with the internet just being a thing as common and as historically familiar as wheeled vehicles are today?

          1. Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf
            October.13.2019 at 10:36 pm

            The same reason it was OK to tape phone lines without a warrant, why it is OK to search a car without a warrant, and why it is OK to search garbage cans without a warrant. (I may not be up to date with all these)

            Government expands. That’s what it does. Expecting otherwise is a fool’s errand. Expecting a government to limit itself is especially silly.

        3. bernard11
          October.14.2019 at 9:47 am

          Stephen,

          I think maybe an example would help make your point clearer.

          1. Stephen Lathrop
            October.14.2019 at 10:33 pm

            bernard, perhaps more helpful than an example would be a few general descriptions of novel kinds of problems the nation must now cope with because of internet publishing.

            1. Publishing giantism. There is no precedent in the nation’s history for the stifling national command of advertising revenue now wielded by a very few large publishing corporations. A major enabler of that freakish growth has been the decision in Congress to pass Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. That enabled the most aggressive business models to publish everything, from all contributors, without reading any of it. Absent that specially privileged recklessness, the growth could not have occurred as it has. What has happened has gone far to destroy legacy news media, by depriving them of ad revenue, without offering anything to replace what has been lost in terms of the quality and variety of published content.

            2. Replacement of the legacy publishing business model, which prioritized assembling and building an audience to sell to advertisers, with a clicks-based business model, which sells individual stories to advertisers, one-by-one. The baleful effects of that change on publishing content quality would need many pages to describe. In brief, the changes include advantaging lies over truth, and outrage over edification. The changes also facilitate organized campaigns of disinformation, run by people who best understand how to exploit the new model. Election interference is but one example, but an important one.

            3. Combining data-based user tracking with the clicks-based business model has created something entirely new and hugely disruptive in multiple dimensions: an audience-surveillance-based publishing business model. The implications run wild, but always include overwhelming damage to the notion of personal privacy.

            4. Publishing without reading, because responsibility for defamation has for practical purposes been all but abolished. That means that every defamation, every copyright violation, every fraudulent scam, every false election story, etc., and on and on, will always be published, and do damage, before there can be any action to correct the problem. Usually, no remedy for damage already done will prove possible. That makes a mockery of the previously-helpful adage that the best solution for bad speech is more speech. More speech rarely has power to alleviate damage already done. Not reading before publishing multiplies damage of that sort many-fold.

            5. Constriction of publishing variety. That is just the flip side of giantism. A publishing universe entirely ruled by a few giants creates an ever-present risk of viewpoint discrimination, without allowing alternative outlets.

            6. The generalized effect of all of the above, acting together, is rapidly increasing pressure for government censorship, and also for business interference in publishing from government. Uncompensatable damage creates demands for government acton.

            These effects are novelties in the world of publishing, newly delivered by the internet. The law of publishing grew up without challenges of these sorts to worry about. In some cases, especially the case of publishing without reading, the law had long relied on private editing to buffer the problems, and keep them away from the courts. Left unchanged, that old body of law will not cope successfully with all these new challenges.

        4. donojack
          October.14.2019 at 10:52 am

          It seems as if you’re just dancing around the idea you want some form of government censorship of speech because the internet.

          1. Stephen Lathrop
            October.14.2019 at 9:32 pm

            donojack, I have consistently opposed all government censorship of speech, in all its forms. One of the principle reasons I think government needs to reconsider the special privileges it has extended to internet businesses, is because I think those privileges contribute to building public pressure for government censorship.

    2. TwelveInchPianist
      October.13.2019 at 9:15 pm

      Lathrop is correct, some speech can be quit dangerous. For example, the word “triggered” can cause people to lose control of their car.

    3. Noscitur a sociis
      October.13.2019 at 10:18 pm

      I don’t see anything peculiar – or even particularly incongruous – about think that a more civil discourse would be nice but that 1. Government regulation isn’t a particularly effective means of getting there and 2. The costs wouldn’t be worth the price even if were.

  5. Ben_
    October.13.2019 at 9:15 pm

    Maybe the upcoming Project Veritas exposé of CNN will help.

    1. Sarcastr0
      October.13.2019 at 10:29 pm

      lol Veritas keeps plugging away. No one believes them anymore. But they are useful as a propagandistic tonic for the troops.

      1. Krayt
        October.13.2019 at 11:26 pm

        I wonder what else has been plugging away for several years, and people rightly start to wonder if they should be believed.

        1. Leo Marvin
          October.14.2019 at 3:43 am

          Birthers? Climate change deniers? Deep State coup conspiracy theorists? Scalia murder conspiracy theorists? Rafael Cruz/L.H. Oswald conspiracy theorists? Seth Rich/CrowdStrike/Ukraine conspiracy theorists? Massive illegal immigrant voter fraud conspiracy theorists? Inauguration crowd size conspiracy theorists? Alleged victims of Trump sexual abuse are all just a conspiracy of ugly feminists theorists?

          1. donojack
            October.14.2019 at 7:11 am

            You forgot a few:
            Russian collusion; Trump cheering Nazis in Charlottesville; Trump hiring prosties to piss on a bed; climate doom; Hunter Biden tots qualified for the job; Dems aren’t for open borders; Sanders isn’t a commie; Clinton never went to Pedo Island; Russians stole the election from Hillary; Lynch’s meeting with Clinton was about their grandkids; the Clinton foundation is a charity; Biden is an anti-corruption crusader; Omar never married her brother; the Green New Deal is sane; the media doesn’t cover for Dems; there has been no coup attempt; encouraging kids be transgender isn’t child abuse; late term abortion isn’t murder

            1. donojack
              October.14.2019 at 7:37 am

              Also:
              We don’t want to take your guns; government paying off student loans is fair; radical Islamists aren’t; illegal immigrants aren’t; government is what we all do together; progs love free speech; no walls have ever worked anywhere; Dems don’t want to create a new electorate; Google, Facebook and Twitter are unbiased; the NYT is not a propaganda organ; Comey, Brennan and Clapper don’t belong in jail

      2. Ben_
        October.13.2019 at 11:56 pm

        I like how you’re already effectively calling their report a lie, even though none of us have seen it yet.

        Reality isn’t that bad. You can actually accept it once in a while without denial or making up stories. Things will be ok.

        1. bernard11
          October.14.2019 at 1:03 am

          Liars lie, Ben.

          To expect that this time they’ll tell the truth is foolish.

          1. AmosArch
            October.14.2019 at 5:47 am

            Veritas: This guy said this, here is video proof of the guy saying it.
            Volokh liberals: Lies! I don’t believe a word of it.
            MSM: A man can change into a woman by clicking his heels five times and wishing on a magic star.
            Volokh liberals: Sounds about right to me!

            1. Sarcastr0
              October.14.2019 at 4:45 pm

              They edit and lie and do inept sting attempts. That’s all they’ve ever done. You’d think the fact that they have to distort so hard would tell you something about what wholesale rejection of the media has brought you.

              But no.

              You eat it up. That’s your brand.

      3. donojack
        October.14.2019 at 6:42 am

        We edited this video because of time constraints. You can view the unedited version on our website. How does that compare to your latest cut and paste editing effort re Trump’s China presser?

  6. donojack
    October.14.2019 at 6:45 am

    Uh oh. Is this a prelude to a civility crackdown? I have a feeling that Headmaster Kerr is going to be delegated to whip us into shape.

    1. Alpheus W Drinkwater
      October.14.2019 at 3:00 pm

      God I hope so. This place has become a cesspool.

  7. Doug Huffman
    October.14.2019 at 6:54 am

    Social intercourse is NOT social networking with electronic apparitions. Social intercourse is face to face, and I have not been in a fisticuffs since high school.

    Step away from the keyboard, take a look around and a breath of fresh air.

    1. Doug Huffman
      October.14.2019 at 6:59 am

      An after thought: I am legally armed with a gun, as many are, and have never committed an uncivil act with my gun. There is a grand devide between the portrayal of society and the experience.

  8. captcrisis
    October.14.2019 at 8:02 am

    One can’t seriously make this point without singling out our crude, immature and monstrously uncivil President and the 40% or so of Americans who cackle with glee at his latest embarrassing insult. Everyone else’s offenses are so minor as to not merit a mention.

    1. donojack
      October.14.2019 at 8:11 am

      Not even a mention. Got it.

      1. captcrisis
        October.14.2019 at 10:05 am

        Yes that’s correct. The reason he gets away with it is because too many people say “both sides do it!”

  9. arch1
    October.14.2019 at 12:14 pm

    Jefferson and his contemporaries seem to have variously used “men” to refer to (what we would call) white men, white adults, adults, citizens, etc. When “men” was singling out whites, was this done in part because (what we would call) racism was even then uncomfortable to more explicitly acknowledge?

    1. Eddy
      October.14.2019 at 4:07 pm

      “uncomfortable to more explicitly acknowledge”

      Jefferson wrote much about race in his Notes on the State of Virginia, which was aimed at both a domestic and foreign audience.

      As I recall, he saw slavery as bad but entertained the idea that black people were inferior.

      What was uncomfortable at the time was acknowledging the gap between theory and practice when it came to American liberties and black people’s lack thereof. Jefferson being an example.

  10. rsteinmetz
    October.14.2019 at 4:37 pm

    Civility has suffered from the demise of gatekeepers. Not that long ago the fringes were simply ignored by the leaders on all sides of the political spectrum and the media which was generally limited to big published for news and 3 mass TV networks.

    The divisions across the spectrum were probably less, with people generally being more tolerant of differing views, even views some would find abhorrent.

    The solution is for the opinion leaders to show some respect for those they disagree with and call out those on any side who go to extremes. To give all people some understanding.

    I find many issue failing to appreciate the position of those who disagree with them and caricaturing their opponents as the worst possible interpretation of their position. Examples are easy to come by.

    I recall a story my father told me from the mid sixties at the height of the civil rights protests. At a meeting of the church board someone raised the question of what would happen is a black family wanted to join our church/ There was some discussion and someone finally said ,” You know Dr. and his wife from a nearby historically African American College has been attending Sunday evening services for years. The discussion was over and as far as I know never brought up again. Apparently when the Dr. started attending services no one thought to make anything of, as they shouldn’t have and life went on. In so many cases today we have people going out of their way to inflame situations because of their political crusade instead of meeting people one at a time with respect as individuals.

    1. Eddy
      October.15.2019 at 1:43 am

      “Civility has suffered from the demise of gatekeepers.”

      If anyone qualified as a gatekeeper it was the New York Times, and they’re still around, most recently publishing an article suggesting that one of the editors’ fellow-Democrats is linked to Nazis and Russians – because the Democrat in question is critical of the military-industrial complex. See this site’s own reporting:

      https://reason.com/2019/10/14/the-new-york-times-wonders-aloud-if-tulsi-gabbards-anti-war-anti-establishment-message-makes-her-a-stooge-for-nazis-and-russian-bots/

      1. bernard11
        October.15.2019 at 8:38 am

        Eddy,

        I suggest you read the NYT article that the piece you link to is talking about.

        Mr. Britschgi’s depiction is rather distorted. The “hints” and insinuations he finds seem to be mostly his own imaginings.

  11. Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)
    October.14.2019 at 7:04 pm

    Considering that lies and hyperbole were in full swing prior to the revolution, perhaps this is a case of something long wished for that has never actually existed. As far as I know, King George never actually ate babies and it has been admitted by the perpetrators that no Native Americans were actually involved in dumping tea into Boston Harbor. Hearst proved definitively more than 100 years ago that outrage could be made to overwhelm reason with enough press coverage.

    The instantaneous news cycle of the internet places reliable news and fallacy free opinion at a considerable disadvantage to the clicks generated by making unchecked ‘facts’ and uninformed ‘opinion’ available immediately. The rush to publish leads to the further promotion of prejudice at the expense of thoughtful discourse.

  12. bernard11
    October.14.2019 at 11:18 pm

    Not that I know how to arrange that,

    None of us, as individuals, can arrange that. We can, of course, try to do what we can in the hope that others will do the same.

    One thing we might do is call out those on our side of the political divide who engage in obnoxious, uncivil, even inflammatory, rhetoric.

    Bluntly, EV, I haven’t seen you do that (not that I claim particular virtue there either). So your calls for civility ring a bit hollow.

    1. Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
      October.14.2019 at 11:53 pm

      The proprietor acted decisively for civility in banning Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland for making fun of conservatives (although the acquiescence when his right-wing fans call for killing liberals suggests it might have been partisanship masquerading as civility).

      Then there is the curious but telling silence regarding Pres. Trump (including with respect to free speech issues, regarding which it often takes far less than a presidential pronouncement to trigger a comment from the proprietor) . . .

      His playground. His rules. Others can judge those rules, however, including with respect to civility.

    2. Eddy
      October.15.2019 at 12:26 am

      This goes down a whole rabbit hole – “you must denounce this person you don’t know and probably never heard of but whom I think is similar to you or on the same ‘team.'”

      Then the mutual demands for “self-criticism” evolve into another excuse for incivility.

      1. bernard11
        October.15.2019 at 8:27 am

        Eddy,

        You have a point, but I don’t think everyone should be issuing denunciations right and left, just that publicly bemoaning incivility is unconvincing when those moaning seem unwilling to criticize those on their side.

        1. Eddy
          October.15.2019 at 11:13 am

          I suppose there are various explanations for the prof only sometimes getting specific about offenders on “his” side (or either side for that matter). The charitable interpretation which I will presume is that it can be challenging to monitor offensive comments, especially if one is trying to maintain an open forum for opinions.

          There’s also the question, as I alluded to, of who is on “his” side – The prof may be a right-wing reactionary conservative from the perspective of academia, but compared to certain commenters he’s on the liberal side.

          1. Eddy
            October.15.2019 at 11:18 am

            And apart from the Rev, who thinks Volokh is on Trump’s side? Certainly the other Conspirators rarely seem to be.

  13. Eddy
    October.15.2019 at 12:04 am

    So the consensus seems to be:

    1) Civility is a wonderful thing

    2) Which is why the other side are such Hitlerite scum because they violate norms of civility

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