The New FCC Chairman's Agenda Contradicts Conservative Principles
Brendan Carr’s plans for "reining in Big Tech" are a threat to limited government, free speech, free markets, and the rule of law.

"The censorship cartel must be dismantled," Brendan Carr declared two days before President-elect Donald Trump picked him to chair the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Trump described Carr as "a warrior for Free Speech."
Carr's plans for "reining in Big Tech" understandably appeal to Trump, who has long complained that the leading social media platforms are biased against him. But Carr's agenda is blatantly inconsistent with conservative principles, including limited government, free markets, freedom of speech, and opposition to lawless regulation.
Carr, a Republican telecommunications lawyer who has served as an FCC commissioner since Trump appointed him during his first term in August 2017, says "the censorship cartel" includes businesses such as Facebook, Google, Apple, and Microsoft. It also supposedly includes NewsGuard, a company that rates the reliability of news and information sources.
As Carr tells it, these businesses have conspired to silence "core political, religious, and scientific speech" by "defund[ing], demonetiz[ing], and otherwise put[ting] out of business news outlets and organizations that dared to deviate from an approved narrative." They have punished Americans for "doing nothing more than exercising their First Amendment rights."
Carr's complaint goes far beyond legitimate concerns about government pressure on social media platforms to suppress speech that federal officials viewed as a threat to public health, democracy, or national security. He portrays purely private action, including independent content moderation and the advice that informs it, as a violation of the First Amendment.
That is clearly wrong, because the First Amendment constrains government power, not content decisions by private businesses. To the contrary, the Supreme Court has repeatedly recognized that the First Amendment protects such editorial discretion, as Justice Elena Kagan noted last February in an opinion joined by four of her colleagues.
"The principle does not change because the curated compilation has gone from the physical to the virtual world," Kagan wrote. "In the latter, as in the former, government efforts to alter an edited compilation of third-party expression are subject to judicial review for compliance with the First Amendment."
Unfazed by that point, Carr sees one of the laws at issue in that case, a Texas statute that says social media platforms may not "censor" content based on "viewpoint," as a model for federal legislation. He nevertheless concedes that "some" conservatives "do not think that the FCC or Congress should act in a way that regulates the content-moderation decisions of private platforms" because "doing so would intrude—unlawfully in their view—on the First Amendment rights of corporations to exclude content from their private platforms."
Carr favors legislation that "scraps" federal protection from civil liability for user-posted content—a crucial safeguard against potentially crippling litigation that has made the internet as we know it possible. Although Carr thinks that step would promote "a diversity of viewpoints," one likely result would be even stricter content moderation, aimed at avoiding any possible pretext for a lawsuit.
Even without new legislation, Carr argues, the FCC can curtail liability protection through statutory interpretation, "impose transparency rules on Big Tech," and require changes to the policies and procedures of social media companies. That agenda should alarm any conservative who inveighs against overweening federal agencies empowered to invent their own authority.
The Supreme Court struck a blow against such lawlessness last June, when it repudiated the Chevron doctrine, which required that judges defer to an agency's "reasonable" or "permissible" interpretation of an "ambiguous" statute. Carr himself praised that decision, saying "it puts individuals or businesses on a much more level playing field with an administrative agency."
Carr probably had in mind attempts by a Democratic FCC majority to impose "net neutrality" requirements on internet service providers by treating them as "common carriers." But objections to regulations based on dubious statutory interpretations apply with equal force to his own agenda.
Republican complaints about arbitrary, unfair, and politically biased content moderation may or may not be fully justified. But they cannot give the FCC powers it does not have.
© Copyright 2024 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
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Biden regime censored several channels on Telegram that were not involved with criminal content but for political information.
The new guy should not censor content though blatant lies against individuals could result in defamation suits. I can see why a progressive at a barely libertine magazine would be worried about the former.
Twatabout Hillary? Twatabout Stalin? Twatabout King George the Absurd?
Brendan Carr drives a "Team R"-car, so let's deflect in our car, and go to the bar, get drunk, and fuggettaboutShit!!!
Section 230 - The Reason-endorsed brand of qualified immunity for Social Media.
And THAT, my fiend, is a DARNED FINE THING!!!
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
It's always seemed to me that the intent of Section 230 was to ensure that the law didn't create an incentive for "platform" companies to engage in "curation" or censorship of user-generated content, while still allowing "publisher" companies to control any/all content on their sites by nearly any criteria which didn't constitute a violation of Civil Rights laws (if such laws apply to publishing operations).
From what I've heard quoted from the incoming FCC chair nominee, his position is essentially that companies who choose to act as "publishers" can do so, but would forego the protections extended by Section 230 for "platform" companies. The main clarification/revision I've seen advocated for is merely to require that companies claiming "platform" protections shouldn't be allowed to restrict user-generated content unless that content violates some existing Federal Code section (libel/slander, actual incitement to violence, false advertisement/fraud, and possibly violations of ITAR export controls).
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one." ... 'Cause Power Pig said so!
Your large and ugly punishment boner is showing!!! Be decent, and COVER UP, will ya?!?!?
If you want to love animals, pamper your pets. If you love to eat meat, eat meat. Pick one, ONLY one!
You either love animals, or you eat meat… You can NOT do both! All pet owners who eat meat? Their pets will be slaughtered and their pet-meat distributed to the poor! Because I and 51% of the voters said so! And because we are power pigs, and LOOOOOVE to punish people!
Get bent, Sullum. Robby knows better. Even his liberal counterpart is like, yeah, this isn't a bad move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX893vVEXGY
New CABINET Picks ANNOUNCED; FCC CHAIR Would Champion FREE SPEECH
I like your coverage of the corrupt cop Goines though, maybe stick to that.
Old “New Thang” MAGA make way for the NEW New Thang!!! MAGA meet MANGABA, Making Almighty NEW Government Almighty Bigger Again!!! All Hail MANGABA!!!
(Shit will also stimulate the economy by giving regulators, judges, and lawyers LOTS of NEW shit to fight about!!!)
Three choices:
1. Biden censorship continues.
2. Trump smashes the censorship cartel.
3. Individual customers sue the daylights out of Big Tech for violating their own terms of service.
No. 3 ain't gonna happen. It would require a judicial system which could resolve such disputes without taking years and millions of dollars.
No. 2 is what Sullum is arguing against.
No. 1 is all that's left. Sorry, Sullum, that's the worst choice.
Sullum only picks the wrong choice
And ONLY Rev-Perv KnuckleHead knows twat the RIGHT choices are!!!! ALL HAIL Rev-Perv KnuckleHead!!!!!
Biden censorship continues, while Trump is in orifice, 'cause Trump obeys Biden? People erected Trump to obey Biden? Or is Trump being pussy-whipped by Queen Spermy Daniels? Or... Trump (and Carr) can find NO other solutions here besides... MAKING GOVERNMENT ALMIGHTY BIGGER AGAIN?!?!?
Be ye ASS-ured that the NEW "Team R" Government-Almighty-on steroids powers will NEVER be used by the Demon-Craps!!! That could NEVER happen, 'cause Trump and Carr say so!!!
No3. Alex Berenson managed to do just this in a period of one year, banned from Twitter in Aug 2021, filed suit Dec 2021, settled and reinstated in Jul 2022.
Me: years and millions of dollars
You: one year and ignore the cost (I do not know if you are providing an example in support or against my No. 3, but assume it is in support)
Fat lot of good that does to any ordinary business whose customer base has vanished from the online media he built up.
How much does a year of lawyering cost?
Like I said,the judicial system sucks.
Indeed. The ONLY ‘fix’ the people need is fixing D.C. Gov-Guns.
There is no such thing as Gov-Gun FORCED liberty (contradiction).
Rest ASS-ured that Trump and Carr will STRAIGHTEN OUT shit like the below!!!!
https://futurism.com/the-byte/twitter-suspending-more-people TWITTER UNDER "FREE SPEECH ABSOLUTIST" ELON MUSK IS ACTUALLY SUSPENDING WAY MORE PEOPLE THAN BEFORE. . .Twitter-in-the-Shitter under Elon Musk of the Elongated Tusk now follows in the shit-steps of “Parler”!!! Twat and UDDER slurprise!!! Parler censors liberals per Techdirt https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/29/as-predicted-parler-is-banning-users-it-doesnt-like/
You don't have a right to use other people's property for your expression without their permission.
Does an AT&T or Verizon customer require permission for whatever they want to say over those phone networks. Do UPS or FedEx have to approve the content of written materials shipped through their service?
After Trump, Brendan Carr, Queen Spermy Daniels, The Proud Boys, and MANY more of the RIGHT people are done with us all, ALL of these kinds of spermissions, AND more, will be required!
Yes. You are bound by their Terms of Service.
Like eHarmony?
https://reason.com/2008/11/20/eharmony-forced-to-create-a-da/
But by law, their terms of service may not include censorship of legal content. You would not be allowed to start a Democrats-only phone company.
You also wouldn't see a phone company able to operate under the same business framework as SM.
Bill: Hey this is Bill. Can you...
Operator: Before we can continue allowing you to hold a conversation, we'd like to take this opportunity to talk to you about Alpha Brain....
File under: you pay for what you get.
So you are demanding the 'right' to use someone else's property fir your expression without their permission.
Remember those protesters who stole Israeli flags and burned them as their statement of expression? I guess that was totes legit then?
What we should offer is that social media providers allow expansive freedom of expression IN EXCHANGE FOR very limited liability for user-generated content. If they don’t want to take that deal, then they are free to edit and curate as they wish, and accept liability for the content they host. No coercion as to how they run their Privut Kumpnees–just an offer they are free to decline. And of course, government agents who try to pressure them to censor speech the government doesn’t like should be crucified.
What a nice platform you have here. It would be a shame if anyone sued you into oblivion. So let us make you an offer you can’t refuse. Yep, I see no coercion there.
And of course, government agents who try to pressure them to censor speech the government doesn’t like should be crucified.
This is an appropriate response however.
How is this threat different than any consumer threatening to sue a company?
It's not. Anytime the government offers liability protection for a behavior, they are coercing that behavior. This would apply to any lawsuits in any industry.
No. Demanding a proper judicial system to hold them to their own terms of service. They promised, they lied, they need to be held accountable without spending millions and taking years.
Yes, absolutely.
https://www.att.com/legal/terms.consumerServiceAgreement.html
https://www.verizon.com/about/terms-conditions/overview
https://www.fedex.com/en-us/terms-of-use.html
Unless, of course, Trump, Brendan Carr, Queen Spermy Daniels, The Proud Boys, Pepe the Racist Stolen-IP Frog and His Amphibian People, and Government Almighty ALL together dog-pile on you, and make you do twat THEY want you to do!!!
MANGE... Making Almighty NEW Government Excellent!!!
See here for an example.
https://reason.com/2008/11/20/eharmony-forced-to-create-a-da/
Thanks for that! It's a good case to look at, for the issues here...
Personally I wish that Government Almighty would just FUCK OFF and STAY OUT of these kinds of issues!!!
Common carriers have no say in how the customer uses them (aside from the commission of a crime).
It already is law. Why should social media be different?
Twat an udderly empty-headed comment!!!
A recycled older cumment of mine below...
“Phone companies are required to carry all speech. It’s called “common carrier”, and it’s what Facebook, Twitter, and others should be considered.”
Idiotic in SOOO many ways!!! Child-porn posts MUST be left up? Solicitations for murder for hire must be left up?
And LOOK, doofus, Ma Bell carrying my PRIVATE conversation with Aunt Mildred can NEVER cause Ma Bell to be suspected of blessing my racist shit that I say to Ma Bell!!! Ma Bell will NEVER lose (advertising or other) revenue over what I say to Aunt Mildred!!! These things are NOT true of pubically viewed posts!!! And that is a HUGE difference! Just HOW stupid and evil ARE you anyway, liar?
Has shit EVER occurred to your tiny near-invisible brain that there is NO chance that Ma Bell will be boycotted, because they heard you admiring Hitler or Stalin on a private line, and therefore, some idiots will think that Ma Bell adores Hitler and Stalin?
And… PREPARE your tiny brain now… SOME people just MIGHT boycott Reason.com or FacePoooo because Reason.com or FacePoooo did NOT take down your Adolf-Adoring and Hitler-Humping posts!!! Hello, SOME messages are viewable by a wide audience, and SOME are NOT!!! IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!!!! HELLO?!?!!
So the standard is not so much as whether they own the system it s whether other people can easily see it?
So what you are empowering is not private property but the heckler's veto.
No, private property (a form of individual freedom) is the REAL bedrock on which I stand! The bedrock under the bedrock is the "Golden Rule"... If YOU do not want ME to boss you around for no good reason, nor steal YOUR property, then do NOT do those things to ME!
I point out the SIGNIFICUNT DIFFERENCES between "common carrier" and internet postings (on NOT-Your-Property-web-sites!!!) to make well-deserve fun out of so-so-SMART idiots who can NOT make a good analogy!!! What next, the surgeon is allowed to cut off a man's arm to save the patient's life... So I should be allowed to cut off YOUR arm to punish you for spitting on the sidewalk near my house!!!
Idiocy knows NO bounds around here!!!
In more detail, see https://reason.com/2024/04/16/social-media-platforms-have-property-rights-too/ if you really-actually DO want to understand the differences between utility easements and "common carrier" v/s places where this kind of thinking is TOTALLY misplaced! Ass opposed to just pushing YOUR perspective without listening or understanding!!!
From there, see my comments...
Sure, we libertarians will be REALLY successful if we insist that all utility easements are horrible invasions of private property! There go sewage, oil, gas, water, and other pipelines, road and railway right-of-ways (eminent domain), drainage channels (ditches), telephone lines, fiber-optic lines, and who knows what all else! If you can NOT persuade the Libertarian Party to see things this way… Start your own political party! It is NOT against the law to do so, here and now, at least!
Now in the meantime… In WHAT way does the above list (of utility easements for the public good) have ANYTHING to do with what I allow (or exclude) in my newspaper or web site?
Yes, the sewage pipeline was built on a sewage utility easement, and so some power pig at the sewage treatment plant can NOT target ME, and reject MY sewage, for stupid reasons! If I flush shitloads of plutonium powder down with my turds, they can send the law after me, for good reasons! But they can NOT reject my sewage for political reasons (just because they hate me), because I paid taxes to regulators, who regulate public utilities! AND because they reserve an easement on MY property!
Now when you push YOUR sewage onto Reason.com’s web site, their web site has NOTHING to do with common carriage or utility easements! Do you agree that the local hardcopy rag has the right to REJECT your letter to the editor? Or are they a common carrier also? Which is Reason.com more like, your physical sewage pipeline, or the local news rag? Keep in mind that Reason.com does NOT reserve the right to accept or reject the electrons on photons on your wires or fiber optic lines… But they DO reserve the right to control THEIR web site! Which is THEIR property, having NOTHING to do with public utilities or “common carrier” associated with public utilities! Hello?
Newspapers are subject to full liability for the letters to the editor that they publish, which is what the baseline legal standard is for publishers.
You want social media platforms to have the same editorial ability as the newspapers but without the liability, and you really have not come up with a convincing argument for why they should be an exception to the base legal standard
If you want full editorial control, you do not get full liability protection.
The law (Section 230) currently protects on-line “publishers” from being sued for what OTHER PEOPLE wrote! Now THAT is a simple and good law!
You know, hardcopy rags often publish editorials from “important people” (Senators, CEOs, maybe even the POTUS from time to time). The rag will preface (add) “not the opinion or stance of this rag”, hoping to fend off groundless lawsuits. GOOD LUCK to them, trying to be greedy-lawyer-proofed till such time that “Section 230 for Hardcopy Rags” is added!
So shall we sue the NY Times if they publish an editorial by Trump or by Biden? And Trump or Biden writes lies (libel)? Sue the NY Times, and NOT Trump or Biden? On what planet is that “just” or “fair”?
Sooo… Your “fix” to all of this is to punish “publishers” (web sites) for the content generated by OTHER people? Those who post?
SOME people here have argued that, since there has been at least one (several?) case(s) of hardcopy rags (newspapers) sued FOR THE WRITINGS OF OTHERS, namely letter-to-the-editor writers (it was all well and good to authoritarians that SOME people got punished for the writings of OTHER people), then the proper fix MUST be to perpetrate / perpetuate this obvious injustice right on over to the internet domain!
This is like arguing that the “fix” for a cop strangling to death, a black man (Eric Garner) on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies” is, not to STOP the injustice, but rather, to go and find some White and Hispanic and Asian men as well, and strangle them, as well, on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies”! THAT will make it all “fair”!
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one." ... 'Cause Power Pig said so!
Your large and ugly punishment boner is showing!!! Be decent, and COVER UP, will ya?!?!?
If you want to love animals, pamper your pets. If you love to eat meat, eat meat. Pick one, ONLY one!
You either love animals, or you eat meat… You can NOT do both! All pet owners who eat meat? Their pets will be slaughtered and their pet-meat distributed to the poor! Because I and 51% of the voters said so! And because we are power pigs, and LOOOOOVE to punish people!
“Why should sites that curate content be any different?”
To “curate content” is just to pick and choose. News reporters (of all kinds, and publishers of letters to the editor) do it all day every day. Shall we sue ALL of their socks off, for selectively reporting what OTHER people said? And if Trump gives an hour-long boring speech, and the paper (TV station, etc.) reports only 3 sentences of said shit, should we PUNISH them for that? Fucking power pigs, all of ye!
come up with a convincing argument for why they should be an exception to the base legal standard
Practicality: Newspapers and social media platforms are very different things. A newspaper subscription lets you read, not speak. Opportunities for the public to speak in papers are extremely limited. Letters to the editor are pre-read and approved by the editor because it's easy to edit/approve a few speakers, but not so easy to edit millions of speakers.
If social media had to be pre-read and approved before going public, the internet would be slow, boring and very limited in free speech. Letting anyone post, overruns a place with spam, scams, trolls and otherwise off-putting content that is not good for business. Editorial control without liability gives the best of both worlds.
A platform may be unfair in editing, but it's not the job of government to provide equity.
Quicktown, thanks, agreed!
Also, punishing a news rag (as opposed letter-to-the-editor-writer, or the editorial writer), is unjust to begin with. The "fix" here is adding a "Section 230 for news rags", NOT porting past injustices into new media!
When the USA stopped white folks from enslaving blacks, we did THAT, rather than "fixing" it by getting black people to enslave whites as well! Injustice is fixed by fixing it, not perpetuating it in new forms!
not so easy to edit millions of speakers
Yet, the big platforms like Facebook and Twitter did just that—censored users by the millions on specific topics. The censorship during COVID Fascism is the most glaring example. If their editing had been limited to "spam, scams, trolls" and illegal content, we wouldn't be having this controversy. It's the politically motivated censorship of yes, millions, that has users riled up.
Why should social media be different?
Because social media is very different from telephones (private conversations), radio and TV (where time and "space" are very limited). None of these give speech opportunities similar to the internet.
Yes, agreed, thanks!
However, also note the below...
Ass for MEEE, in My MagnifiCuntly Magnanimous Benevolence, I have determined that private and pubic libraries are ALL alike, in that they are “Common Carriers”, and so they should be FORCED to buy ALL of the books that I have written!!!
"conservative principles, including limited government, free markets, freedom of speech, and opposition to lawless regulation" ? No, no, no, no, no. Please check out the ideas of libertarianism. You might find it informative.
At this point it looks like conservativism and loyalty to Trump are mutually exclusive.
Thanks Jennifer Rubin. You neocons are taking this well.
The conservative position would be that social media providers should have the right to edit their content however they wish, and accept full legal liability for it. Offering them protection from liability for user-generated content is not conservative.
Offering them protection from liability for user-generated content is not conservative.
Or libertarian.
As pointed out in the Priscilla Villarreal, Alex Jones, and several other cases; handing qualified immunity to the next scumbag, muckraker, activist/fabulist down the line doesn't make anyone more free.
"Offering them protection from liability for user-generated content is not conservative."
So you're OK with YOU being sued for twat I said? THAT is YOUR idea of "justice"? Or it shit only true when you (or more like it, the OTHER GUY) have or has "deep pockets"?
Fox news was sued for slander over the voting machines coverage. Are you OK if Reason was sued out of existence since many commenters here posted that same story?
But Really, they wouldn’t be sued under that scenario because only a fool would allow public comments in that environment. Those comments would never exist.
https://reason.com/2024/11/20/the-new-fcc-chairmans-agenda-contradicts-conservative-principles/?comments=true#comment-10807919
Reason could only be held responsible if they wrote those comments. Merely allowing visitors to write comments has never been actionable to the platform, far as I know. That's the stated purpose of §230 -- to allow the platform to get rid of the spam and obscenities, not the lies, perceived misinformation, and anti-woke messaging.
"Fox news" is a publisher. "Reason" is a platform.
Merely allowing visitors to write comments has never been actionable to the platform, far as I know.
It was before section 230.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratton_Oakmont,_Inc._v._Prodigy_Services_Co.
Long story short: A website is held responsible for libel due to an anonymous post because they curated the comments.
In a similar case, CompuServe was found not liable for their content because they did not remove any posts.
And it seems to be a return to this that Vernon is advocating.
Yes, Vernon is advocating punishing "Party A" for the doings (or writings) of "Party B"... Which is profoundly anti-justice in ANY sane world populated by sentient beings with one iota of common sense about twat "justice" means!!!
In other words, I was right, but used the wrong word, "actionable", when I should have said "accountable" and added the clarifier that the problem is a fucked up judicial system which does not hold losers accountable and has so much conflicting precedent and unconscionable split decisions that ritual is valued over justice.
No wonder you're one of my favorite commenters. I misunderstand everything you write. LOL I'm not trying to nitpick your language. I can be very technically minded, one might say, autisticly inclined to miss subtlety. So sorry about that.
So correct me if I got it wrong again. You're saying we shouldn't need section 230 because common sense and justice make it obvious that the host of speech is not responsible for the speech?
If so, I agree, but in practice section 230 essentially took this common sense and forced it on the fucked up judicial system. It shouldn't be needed, but it is.
Thanks Quicktown Brix for a very wise post!
Section 230 "...shouldn’t be needed, but it is."
Like just about all laws! Like maybe we just need ONE law? "Everyone love everyone else. Violators will be shot at dawn... In a LOVING manner!"
If everyone loved everyone, just about all problems (excluding old age, death, volcanoes, earthquakes, storms and floods, etc.) would be solved instantly!
Here is an "Old dead white man" quote to back you up:
(Short version up top).
Ralph Waldo Emerson, who said, ‘The State must follow, and not lead, the character and progress of the citizen.’
Here is the full-blown quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson:
‘Republics abound in young civilians who believe that the laws make the city, that grave modifications of the policy and modes of living and employments of the population, that commerce, education and religion may be voted in or out; and that any measure, though it were absurd, may be imposed on a people if only you can get sufficient voices to make it a law. But the wise know that foolish legislation is a rope of sand which perishes in the twisting; that the State must follow and not lead the character and progress of the citizen; that the form of government which prevails is the expression of what cultivation exists in the population which permits it. The law is only a memorandum.’
I apologize for being inarticulate. I've spent at least 15 years writing all this down for myself, and no idea how many years before that just thinking about it, and only put it on Substack recently.
More or less, yes. It's only lawyers who make such messes.
And yes too about using §230 as a bandaid, because the last thing lawyers want it to let peasants have a say in common sense. Their attitude didn't even make sense 100 years ago.
If I think back to Romans or Greeks, what crimes were there? Theft/assault for the most part, because society was too poor to have anything complicated requiring hundred page contracts. Considering the lack of paper and libraries and easy copying, I wonder if they even had much in the way of written contracts, or if they relied on witnesses to handshake promises.
David D. Friedman has a fantastic book, "Legal Systems Very Different From Ours", covering Greek, Roman, and other old and not so old legal systems. For instance, from memory of Athens:
* You could search your opponent's house, but you had to do it naked. Whether this was to prevent planting evidence or stealing, I do not know, but I think it was just to make sure you were serious.
* Juries were 601 men. If the prosecutor could not convince at least 20% to convict, he was barred from ever prosecuting again.
* Rich people were required to fund some public service every year or so, such a building a trireme. If someone was accused of not doing so and could show someone richer who had also not done so, he was off the hook. How do you prove who is richer in ancient Athens? Offer to swap houses. He who refuses is richer.
All imperfect, but the best that could be done in those times, and obviously not invented by lawyers.
England had peasant justice of a sort until the Norman conquest, who started inserting the King's Men into justice, which is sort of where common law got corrupted. Lawyers, in other words. Near as I can tell, there still was no wealthy society with complex problems to solve which justified all the legal quibbling, but the King wanted to control society and put the peasants in their place. The English "Borh" system was decentralized and voluntary until the Normans made it mandatory and ruined its self-correcting nature.
It's a recurring theme with statists. Disparage market solutions because they showcase the mistakes they correct, and replace them with statist "solutions" which must cover up and gloss over their own mistakes lest the peasants realize the King's Men aren't so smart after all.
I really recommend his book. I think it's only $5 on Amazon and possibly free on Friedman's web site, but get the $5 eBook and pay him, it is a fantastic insight into all the convoluted ways possible to destroy justice in favor of ritual. The ancient Irish system sounds more like a teenage fantasy when they got bored with convoluted Dungeons and Dragons rules. I could not have thought any more rigid and elitist system if I'd spent all those 15 years on it.
Another example to make this even longer is a book "Comanche Empire" by a Finnish professor, Friedman touches on three Indian legal/justice systems a little, the Finnish professor is more about the history, and is one of the reasons I think laws to violate are a terrible way to dish out justice.
* The Comanches were anarchist nomads who practically lived on their horses. A hunter who got a good kill was expected to share because they had no preservation methods; to let all that meat spoil was about the most selfish mortal sin possible.
* The Spanish had a typical "modern" economy with mines, factories, ranches, stores, and all the other cooperative and command business structures, and money to coordinate all transactions.
The two had nothing in common. The Comanches would see some damn hoarder with his store full of tools, textiles, food, and other manufactured goods, and correct his sinning ways by sharing his goods whether he liked it or not. Sometimes they'd return the next day to trade the shared goods for other shared goods.
Both entirely moral by their own creeds.
Reading about such things really makes you think.
Good post, thanks!
What?! The more I post, the shorter your reply?
Well, buy his book, it's fascinating.
David D. Friedman has a fantastic book, “Legal Systems Very Different From Ours”
Saved to my buy-and-read list, thanks!
If you do, I'd be really interested to hear what you learned. I simply had no idea there were so many different ways to create a legal system, and hardly get anything right.
I firmly plan to buy and read it, thanks! It sounds right down the line of my interests!!!
I may or may not remember to post about it. Us old geezers (yes, I am such a one) have a hard time recalling to do things... I keep a "do list", butt still... And we also tend towards fossilized minds! I am trying to fight that, tooth and nail! In my OLD butt bold and beautiful minds, that is.
To see where MY particular fossilized minds (yes, I have many conflicting modularized minds, ass do we all, actually, despite our "unified" declarations to the cuntrary) reside... And to see twat I judge ideas by, in my OLD butt bold and beautiful MANY minds... See
http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ . Written by a strange Fart Smeller or Smart Feller; I'm not sure which...
Wow. This is great! This reading seems right up my alley, politics, history and bashing the Normans. I'm definitely buying the book.
And now I really get your point crystal clear and +1 respect level for your 5D chess take on the issue.
Confession time: I looked in Friedman’s book and find no mention of “Borh”. Wikipedia has a bunch of different related terms, and I’ll have to skim his book to find where he covers it or if I am mistaken about Borhs; the Athenians and Indians are there. So here is my incomplete and fuzzy memory of it.
A Borh was 10-12 households held collectively responsible for criminal acts of any of their members. Pre-Norman, membership had to be agreed voluntarily: if a Borh did not like you, they would reject your membership. Possibly a disreputable Borh would have problems recruiting reputable members. I don’t know those details.
Anyone who was not a member of a Borh was untrustworthy. Not an outlaw, but I imagine they found any kind of promises to not be accepted: “I will pay you back Tuesday for a hamburger today.”
I don’t remember how voluntary this whole structure was, whether it was handed down by the local nobles or just customary. But the important part, to me, was this matter of mutually agreeable membership controlled by the Bohrs themselves, which encouraged cooperation and socialbility. Because members had agreed to help each other, they could intervene if they saw someone backsliding. If they saw one of theirs stealing eggs, they knew him well enough to talk to him and get him to apologize and make good. I don’t know how much of this did happen, but I think some must have, because these members would have been mutual friends in some respect, and friends look out for each other.
The Normans destroyed this self-correcting nature by assigning membership. It might seem a small change, and possibly a good one for forcing villagers to be responsible for the autistic loners. But it destroyed all incentive to act personally responsible, to cooperate in a social manner. If you saw someone who had been foisted on your Bohr stealing eggs, you might very well just turn him in for punishment as revenge or possibly to get rid of the unwelcome stranger who no one liked.
It sums up the problems with almost every modern legal system. Let the State decide. You get no choice. Don’t solve problems yourselves. Come to Big Daddy whose third party nobles will make decisions regardless of how well they know any of the parties or the context.
I ought to hate this Borh system, being so blatantly collectivist. But context matters: crimes were accused and solved by eyewitnesses, trial by ordeal, and the believability of religious oaths. I suppose footsteps could be followed, but forensic evidence was unimaginable. As much as I detest modern judicial systems, they probably solve crimes better than anything in 600 AD.
What I admire about it is its decentralized and voluntary nature towards responsibility, as compared to the King-driven abominations which followed. Maybe in a thousand years, cameras will be reliable at reading facial twitches to tell who's lying, and they won't need to even have legal terms like "perjury". But for the times it existed, Borhs seem like a pretty good system in a lot of ways.
I remember reading or hearing about AngloSaxon folk law based on social groups. I guess I just dismissed it as medieval lack of resourses/knowledge, never stopping to think it could be the basis of law to this day.
I've also considered the native Americans lack of ownership, particularly land. It kind of makes sense, we can't own air or rivers/seas. That only works in small groups though, I suppose.
I'm sure you know, after the Norman conquest, laws and legal proceedings were all in French. English peasants needed an interpretor for legal matters which was the beginning of lawyers. No doubt it has some basis for a ruling elite that we suffer to this day too.
I hadn't thought of language differences being the start of lawyers.
What laws would you say could be broken on social media that would not violate libertarian principles?
I don't understand the question.
In this article, Sullum misidentifies the problem, argues for controlled speech, and shows no understanding of or sympathy towards conservative principles.
Dunno why I bothered reading.
Yeah, "conservative principles" ass defined by sore-in-the-cunt cuntsorevaturds who are actually MARXISTS, wanting private property owners (web site owners) to OBEY-OBEY-OBEY the cummands of large collectivist dog-piles ("All is For the Hive, Cumrades!!!") of right-wing wrong-nuts, who imagine that Demon-Craps (and other "enemies" like real libertarians) will NEVER use the NEW rules against THEM!!!