The GOP's Great Self-Beclownment

What to say to a political party that keeps trying to overturn the results of an election?

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The GOP's Great Self-Beclownment

As in the movie Groundhog Day, a member of the Trump administration this morning woke up early, put on his work clothes, and started yammering about the "fraudulent election" and how some cock-eyed new scheme was going pull victory from the jaws of defeat.

Alas for Stephen Miller—and Sen. Ted Cruz (R–Texas), and the House Freedom Caucus, and at least 17 state attorneys general—the legal system in the United States has a higher evidentiary standard than the guy who tweets out deep thoughts like this:

Swing States that have found massive VOTER FRAUD, which is all of them, CANNOT LEGALLY CERTIFY these votes as complete & correct without committing a severely punishable crime. Everybody knows that dead people, below age people, illegal immigrants, fake signatures, prisoners,….

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 13, 2020

What do such untethered exertions—and their Democratic antecedents—augur for the future of the country and the political party of Abraham Lincoln? Peter Suderman, Matt Welch, Katherine Mangu-Ward, and Dr. Nick Gillespie kick that question around at the top of today's Reason Roundtable podcast. Also discussed: the COVID-19 vaccine rollout, President-elect Joe Biden's latest round of allegedly "bold" appointments, and the music-killing secrets of the narwhal.

Audio production by Ian Keyser and Regan Taylor.

Music: "Pride" by Francesco D'Andrea.

Relevant links from the show:

"A Trump Appointee Rejects Election Complaints Similar to the Ones SCOTUS Declined to Hear," by Jacob Sullum

"Shootings, Stabbings Mar a Weekend of Pro-Trump Protests," by Christian Britschgi

"Ted Cruz's Eagerness To Fight Trump's Legal Battles Epitomizes the GOP's Complete Lack of Principles," by Jacob Sullum

"Trump Lost Because SCOTUS Answers to the Constitution, Not to Him," by Damon Root

"The Supreme Court Just Dismissed Trump's Hail Mary Effort To Overturn the Election," by Eric Boehm

"The House Freedom Caucus Just Trashed What Little Credibility It Had Left," by Eric Boehm

"Trump's Lawyers Claim the Conspiracy To Steal the Election Is Both 'Easily Provable' and Impossible to Prove," by Jacob Sullum

"Stop 'Humoring' Trump," by Eric Boehm

"Conservative Lawmakers and Legal Scholars Denounce Texas Election Suit as 'a Mockery of Federalism and Separation of Powers,'" by Damon Root

"Trump's Judicial Humiliation Is Nearly Complete," by Damon Root

"SCOTUS Full of Trump Appointees Joins the Conspiracy To Deny Trump His Rightful Victory," by Jacob Sullum

"Stay Calm: COVID-19 Vaccine Side Effects Appear Not Much Worse Than Those of Other Vaccines," by Ronald Bailey

"FDA Vaccine Panel Endorses Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine," by Ronald Bailey

"The COVID-19 Vaccine Did Not Kill Your Grandmother," by Ronald Bailey

"FDA Staff Review Confirms: Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine Safe and Highly Effective," by Ronald Bailey

"Pandemic Lockdown Battles Offer Glimpses of Political Conflicts to Come," by J.D. Tuccille

"California's Health Secretary Concedes There Is No Empirical Basis for the State's Ban on Outdoor Dining," by Jacob Sullum

"Stop Saying Lockdown Is 'Not That Hard,'" by Bonnie Kristian

"California Judge Says Los Angeles County's Outdoor Dining Ban Isn't 'Grounded in Science, Evidence, or Logic,'" by Christian Britschgi

"'I'm Not Sure We Know What We're Doing,' Says a Newly Skeptical California Lockdown Advocate," by Jacob Sullum

"Are Americans Insufficiently Alarmed by COVID-19?" by Jacob Sullum

"Southern California Sheriffs Rebel Over Gavin Newsom's New Stay-at-Home Order," by Christian Britschgi

"Trump Undermined Civilian Control of the Military. With His Pentagon Pick, Biden Has Too," by Eric Boehm

What are we consuming this week?

Matt Welch

• A Very She & Him Christmas

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• Avatar: The Last Airbender

Peter Suderman

• Cyberpunk 2077

Nick Gillespie

• Wretched Refuse?: The Political Economy of Immigration and Institutions," by Alex Nowrasteh and Benjamin Powell

---

Comments

[BigGiveNotBigGov]

The Trumpy the Clown Show

Starring Donald (Penneywise) Trump
With the Trump Crime Family and the Entire GOP as supporting players.

[sarcasmic]

Costarring a dozen mean girls on the Reason comments. You can recognize them by the way they bleat "Commie," "Leftist," "Fraud," and "Baaaahh".

[JesseAz]

Funny how you claimed you never said you were a victim the othe rday.

[sarcasmic]

Funny how you show up right on cue whenever I say "mean girl."

[JesseAz]

No. Only you claiming not to be a victim is funny. You claim everyone smarter than you is a mean girl, so many could have responded.

[Mother's Lament]

It's okay when sarcasmic does it because reasons.

[Enlightened Atheist]

Why are you guys so mean to him? Sarcasmic isn't a perfect person by any means, in fact he's probably not all that great to be honest, but seriously why do all you bullies here feel the need to corner him, drop their pants and dump all over him? Didn't your mothers teach you not to bully the weak and helpless?
You guys are no better than Sarcasmic. Just think about that for a moment. Being worse than Sarcasmic. That's you guys every time you bully him, corner him and defecate on him. Just quit it so we can all get along better and have a good time.
Thanks.

[R Mac]

I try to remember that poor sarc’s broken and that’s why he behaves this way, and leave him alone. But he’s become so insufferable, I keep getting sucked in.

I’ll try to do better with the poor chap.

[Hanovak]

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[Mother's Lament]

"every time you bully him, corner him and defecate on him"

Sqrlsy will actually pay $150 for a half hour of that.

[raspberrydinners]

Mean girls is a little light. They're honestly turning into traitors. They want to throw out millions of votes so their guy can be king.

Let's just call a spade a spade at this point. They don't want democracy (fine- a "democratic republic)- they want unbridled power to oppose those they hate and will attempt to get it no matter what.

[JesseAz]

Let the lefty hate flow through you. Arrest anyone who is a political enemy.

[Mother's Lament]

It's pretty ballsy how he infers legal appeals and protesting obvious fraud is somehow undermining democracy, but four years of the #resistance and #notmypresident was totes cool.

[Mother's Lament]

Of course the hypocrisy of it all doesn't even faze clowns like Jeff, Tony and WK, in fact hypocrisy defines them.
But maybe it's not so much hypocrisy as it is a form of psychosis, complex that negates introspection but protects them from thought.

[JesseAz]

It is amazing watching globalist copay as libertarians and say vote integrity doesn't matter. None of them can bring themselves to even call for a statistical audit like Ga just announced. I've held firm on auditing every vote at least statistically since I could vote. But these leftists globalist change as soon as a Democrat is at risk of losing.

[SQRLSY One]

A lie told over and over and over again becomes the truth, right, liar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

[Michael P]

Yes, such as "the 2020 election was clean and there was no evidence of fraud". Okay, "no evidence of systemic fraud". Okay, "no evidence of systemic fraud that would affect the results". Okay, "no evidence of systemic fraud that would affect the results in enough states to change the outcome". (Stay posted for further updates.)

[SQRLSY One]

"...protesting obvious fraud..."

Hey crazy Canuckistanistanistanistananian! WHERE is your evidence of all this fraud, and WHY (if you are SOOOO intent upon fucking with the business of Americans, along with fucking with moose, as you do all day, every day) did you NOT come down here to the USA, and present ALL of your oh-so-convincing "evidence" to the USA courts?

[Mother's Lament]

https://hereistheevidence.com/

To bad you're too crazy and the too leftish to bother reading it.

[SQRLSY One]

So they are ALL in on it? ALL the courts in the USA? Are the Lizard People in on it as well? Maybe you'll have to stay in Canuckistanistanistanistan, then, where the Lizard People have NOT yet taken over! You'll be SAFE there, for a little while, yet, perhaps!

[Michael P]

Courts remember the saying "you and what army?" Corrupt Democrat officials let rioters and arsonists lay siege to courthouses, and even tacitly encourage that. Judges don't have armies to repel that kind of violence, so they fall into line lest their courthouse be the next target.

[Enlightened Atheist]

What? He's crazy? More like hilarious.
Now as for you on the other hand... Have you ever re-read one of your rambling hate-screeds, or do you just pound the keyboard with your forehead and then hit send?

[Mother's Lament]

Yes.
*tips fedora*

[HamSandwich]

"Let the lefty hate flow through you. Arrest anyone who is a political enemy."

*shrugs* meh. So many of you and your little group that white knight for each other have called for:

- overturning an election where the loser lost by the largest amount, ever
- civil war, against anyone who disagrees with you that the loser should be prez
- actively telling anyone who doesnt agree with them to kill themselves
- actively calling for the 2a to remedy their loss
- actively calling for the rounding up and murder of their political opponents (yes, 2 of your favorites here, on a regular basis)

- most importantly: calling for violence and revolution after they straight up lost because the picked a bad horse

Sorry motherfucker, you and your ilk are the traitors. If the "lefty hate" is what you have been getting thrown your way, I guess you should be happy they arent as murderous and treasonous as your side is.

Fucking loser

[JesseAz]

I know. Vote integrity is such loser talk. Better to just form a resistance and actively undermine the winner right?

[HamSandwich]

"Vote integrity"

Aka - bringing up 100 frivolous and laughed at court cases, a bunch of hearsay from extremely biased sources (that of course, can in no way be proven) and conspiracy theories, and then calling for revolution when no one will stop laughing at your "hard evidence" of MASSIVE VOTER FRAUD. In fact the best evidence you claim to have about the conspiracy is how hard everyone is laughing at you and writing you off. GL with that.

Then when you get mad that the country is laughing at you, your ilk stoop to threatening violence to install your loser as president.

Ya sorry pal, "vote integrity" is not "believe my shitty partisan evidence or we will have a violent coup".

Furthermore, the dems impotent attempt at "resistance" is nothing compared to what you and your little pussy friends suggest on the regular here. They followed congressional rules on an impeachment with no teeth, it ended up having no teeth as predicted, and it had no effect whatsover. They didnt say "if he isnt removed from office, its time to fix it with 2a ourselves!". Sad to see that they are behaving the least treasonous nowadays. Real fucking sad.

[SQRLSY One]

Hey! Y'all stop your fighting now! Let's have some Trumpsmas Good Will and Cheer around here, instead!

HERE is an uplifting message that may help out!

A Trumpsmas Message of Hope, Peace, and Joy

In these times of divisive troubles, we all need a little unifying Lift, yes? So I present to you, a Timeless, Empowering Story of Trumpsmas Joy!

And it came to pass, that The Lord Trump descended from the penthouse of The Trump Hotel at Mar-a-Lago. He ascended the flag-draped speaker’s podium, and had an acolyte apply some touch-up bronzer. He ascended the Mount of Olives, and of Pineapples, and of Anchovies. Then He spake unto the assembled mass of 5 million:

“I come unto ye to bring messages of Joy and Peace! Do NOT be confused by the lamestream media, nor by the Demon-rats, who speak of many strange wonders! They speak of many YUUGE lies, and of half-truths! Some say that I am the Son of God! Some say that I am the Son of Man! Some say that I am the Great White Father! Or the Great Pumpkin! Or the Great Whitish-Orangish Pumpkin-Father! But I am none of those things! I come to be before you, as an Humble Man, with MUCH bigness to my humbleness… You may simply call me the Chosen One! Even the lamestream media knows this! https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-49429661 The American voters, the REAL, legitimate voters… The NON-Demon-rat ones, have overwhelmingly chosen MEEE! THAT is why I am the Chosen One!”

He paused, momentarily, there on the top of the Mount of Olives, and of Pineapples, and of Anchovies, as thunderous applause deafened everyone for miles around. He tried to wave down the crowd, for silence. But in their jubilation, the crowd spontaneously broke out into a chant! “Dominos Pizza-Pie REEEquiem, Dominos Pizza-Pie REEEquiem, Dominos Pizza-Pie REEEquiem”, they chanted, over and over, and yet over, again! Sensing their spiritual and bodily hungers, The Lord Trump discreetly ordered a single, solitary pizza and a basket full of anchovies, which arrived nearly instantly. Then The Lord Trump broke off pieces of pizza, and dished out the anchovies, which somehow managed to feed the crowd of five million!

With their hunger now sated, The Lord Trump was finally able to calm the masses, and silence their cheering, so that He could, once again, be heard. The Lord Trump spake once again, saying unto them, “Behold, now begins a time of troubles! The Dark Lord has bin bidin’ his time, which has now come! I will be swallowed up by the Penthouse of The Trump Hotel at Mar-a-Lago, for 4 years of dark nights and troubled days, and I know, you will miss Me terribly! But then the Boulder of Voter Fraud will mysteriously be shoved aside, and I will emerge once more! Trust bigly in Me, but bigly JUST in Me!!!”

The Lord Trump waited for a long time, for the applause to die down, and then continued, “While I am gone, the Faithful shall honor Me on the last Thursday of each November, giving Thanks that I have shown Good Americans The Truth and The Way. You shall slay the Great Pumpkin, and eat of the Pumpkin Pie, saying, ‘This is the Body of The Lord Trump. Eat it with Joy and Gladness’. Then you shall drink of the cranberry juice, saying. ‘This is the Blood of The Lord Trump. Drink it with Anticipation of the Defeat of the Forces of Evil, of the Demon-rats’. This, do in honor of MEEE!”

The applause was overwhelming and unstoppable, so The Lord Trump escaped in His Helicopter, to the Penthouse of The Trump Hotel at Mar-a-Lago, leaving the crowd to festering in the gathering stormy weather. There were no busses provided for the crowds, but that was OK by them, for they were full of Great Trumpsmas Joy!

[Enlightened Atheist]

LOL yes this is PURE comedy GOLD. It's fun watching you run circles around everyone here. 🙂

[SQRLSY One]

Thank You kind Enlightened Atheist!

Have you heard that The Donald has now FINALLY, graciously worked up a concession speech? Here is an advance copy!

My most-senior inside contact at the White House has surreptitiously slipped me an advance copy of the lame-duck POTUS’s concession speech. Without further ado, here it is:

Friends, non-foreigner-type True Americans, and all who Make America Great Again, lend me your ears! I come to bury Biden, not to praise him. Biden and his minions stole the elections, and we must dishonor that! To Make America Great Again, we must invent the most fantastic, fabulous, YUUUGEST BIGNESS EVAH SEEN, in the ways of truly factually fictitious, but Spiritually and Metaphorically True, NEW Republican ballots! Because I have directed My Generals and My Scientists to research the current and past performance, efficacy, and patriotism of one-party states, versus multi-party states. As I have directed them to, My impartial, unbiased, data-driven council of My Generals and My Scientists have determined that yea verily, one-party states work better! Therefore, we must all strive for the Glorious Day, when America becomes a one-party state, under the One True Party, the Republican Party!

But for now, the courts have sided with Biden and his camel-toe, and Antifa, BLM, and all the Marxist terrorists. We must let the courts have it their way, with mayo on the side. I mean, with Mao Tse Tung on the side, but without the Proud Boys standing back and standing by. Thank you, Proud Boys, for having stood by me. Also, thank you, Steve Bannon, Vladimir Putin, Kim Ill Dung, and Pepe the Stolen-Intellectual-Property Frog. Pepe, watch out for Miss Piggy, she and her “pre-nuptial contracts” will clean your clock, just like Melania is set to clean mine soon! But I digest.

So we can’t disrepute what the nasty courts have said, or there might be civil war. Sad! The courts aren’t very American these days! And if you don’t like what I just said? Well, I’m sorry that you feel that way!

So congratulations to Biden for having stolen the elections! This is America, so we must properly honor the decisions of the courts, in a dishonorable way! Biden can come and live with us in the White House, per the wishes of the courts. He can pour our covfefe for us, for Steve Bannon, Pepe the Frog, and I, and Jill can make sandwiches for us. We promise to call him POTUS, and her, First Lady! POTUS of covfefe, and First Lady of sandwiches, that is! Hey Biden! Get yer butt over here! Pepe needs some covfefe!

That setup will get us by for a little while! Meanwhile, we can schedule the NEW run-off elections, this time without any fraudulent so-called “Democratic” votes being allowed, and we can do this RIGHT the next time!

Meanwhile, congratulations to Joe Stalin-Biden, on being elected POTUS of pouring covfefe for Pepe!

[Mother's Lament]

Lol, maybe Enlightened Atheist is right Sqrlsy. I think I've seen the light, and you really are running circles around everyone here.

[De Oppresso Liber]

60 losses, loser.

[loveconstitution1789]

Except for the WI supreme court decision and 2+ ScOTUS pending cases relating to PA.

Its almost like Biden DIDNT win on electoral college voting day.

[pro bonobo]

They want to throw out a few hundred thousands votes in a handful of states because it appears their ballot boxes were stuffed with fraudulent votes and there's no way to separate them out.

Fixed it for you.

[R Mac]

Poor sarc. Always crying.

[SQRLSY One]

I’m soooo sorry that your Great Whitish-Orangish Pumpkin-Father has been CHEATED out of His Office by evil Demoncrats! I suggest that you might be able to retreat to your safe space… I hear they have laid in a large supply of Teddy Bears. Maybe one of the Teddy Bears will agree to lay with you, and snuggle your wuggle for a while! There, there!

In a mere few more years, as you are still jonesing for Great White Father, I bet you could persuade Alex Jones to be your Next Savior! Slogan: Jonesing for Jones!

[Enlightened Atheist]

LOL you are actually pretty funny! I literally spit out my milk just now reading that! The part about Great Whitish-Orange Pump-kin-Father was hilarious.
Be honest though, did you actually come up with all of that yourself? I won't judge if you heard it somewhere else, but seriously, if you wrote that yourself you should seriously consider a writing gig, like for a sitcom or something. I'd pay to hear stuff like this!

[Enlightened Atheist]

"Jonesing for Alex Jones" LOL that is gold! I’m seriously still laughing my butt off over here. I gotta show my friends this, they'll get a real kick out of it.

[Enlightened Atheist]

You should archive your stuff somehow and make some kind of online portfolio if you haven't already. This is too good to waste on an anonymous comment section.
I used to get confused reading your stuff and just skimmed it, I’m not sure what happened but wow I feel like everything clicked and I finally get your style. Count me as your newest fan!

[M. Stack Overflow]

Fuck off Tulpa

[loveconstitution1789]

Poor Commies at unreason.

They think they will win by committing election fraud.

Democrats sent electors and Trump sent electors. We will see which set of electors are accepted by a Joint Session of Congress on Jan 6, 2021.

[loveconstitution1789]

Two election cases before the SCOTUS as of today with more moving up for review.

WI Supreme Court declared ~215,000 "indefinitely confined" ballots that were counted are illegal but would not invalidate them. Should be interesting finding for the SCOTUS.

[Syd Henderson]

The Democratic electors will be accepted from from the states where the Democrats are certified as having won. Some Republicans will showboat to try not to accept them, but not enough of them.

And those cases will have just as much success as the The Texas and Pennsylvania cases that you were masturbating about.

[loveconstitution1789]

Thats why even New Mexico sent Trump electors.

Bidens electors are tied to fraudulent state vote totals, so they get tossed.

US senate refuses to accept biden electors because of massive democrat election fraud scheme.

12th amendment here we come.

[loveconstitution1789]

The constitution strikes again!

Unreason commies hate the constitution.

[Sevo]

"The Trumpy the Clown Show"

The TDS-infected shit-show!
Starring assshole!

[SQRLSY One]

The GOP, Grand (soap) OPera... Agitating for a 1-Part "R" state, AKA, a dictatorshit under Der TrumpfenFuhrer! Because we ALL studied our history SOOO hard, and we ALL know how splendidly 1-party states work! "R" party WILL make it work!

[Formerly Cynical Asshole]

What to say to a political party that keeps trying to overturn the results of an election?

Thank God the Democrats would never stoop to that level...

[NoVaNick]

^This ^. Four years ago, there was lots of grumbling from the left about overturning the EC because Russian meddling.

[Brandybuck]

Not to this extent. Not to this extent. Show me one case of one state asking the Supreme Court to invalidate the election results of four other states. One one case. You can't.

Also, stop blaming your actions by saying Hillary did it too. It's childish.

"But mom! Hillary did it too!"

[BigT]

Actually, to a much more serious and delirious extent. The day after the election some a-hole Democrats (but I repeat myself) were calling for impeachment. This was followed by a long series of fictional accusations and investigations. The number of suits brought against the Trump administration was far more than against any previous first term president. Apparently, you only see what you want to see.

[MollyGodiva]

On the campaign train Trump said things that would lead onw to believe that he would commit impeachable offenses as soon as he took office.

[Sevo]

"On the campaign train Trump said things that would lead onw to believe that he would commit impeachable offenses as soon as he took office."

As per normal, your stupidity ate your cites

[MollyGodiva]

For example:
-Trump said he would ban all Muslims from entering the country.
-He openly asked Russia to help hack his opponent.
-He owned businesses that take foreign money.
All of which could easily lead to impeachable offenses.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

None of those led to impeachable offenses. He wasn’t impeached for any of those things. At all. Ever.

Are you fucking delusional?

[loveconstitution1789]

Unreason staffers are upset because they see whats coming thanks to comments linking what Republicans are doing.

Even New Mexico sent Trump electoral votes . Hahah

[Michael P]

By that argument, Joe Biden already committed impeachable offenses. No need for "could easily lead" qualifiers.

[pro bonobo]

" -He openly asked Russia to help hack his opponent."

At the time, Hillary's private server was in pieces on an FBI shelf. With the hard drive wiped clean... like with a cloth.

That was a joke and it had the room laughing. I thought it was funny as hell.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

Agreed. This is in no way comparable to anything the Democrats did four years ago. This is orders of mangitude more pathetic and embarrassing. It will be interesting to see what happens to the GOP post-Trump. One thing is sure. The days of small government rhetoric and cutting spending (as impotent and hypocritical as these things were) are over.

[JesseAz]

Using the court system could be the most traitorous thing ever done.

Much better to leak classified intel and actively and openly undermine the winner. Open a special council on paid for foreign intel. Advocate for electors to change their vote. Impeach. Riot in cities for 100 days. Etc.

Youre right.

[Mother's Lament]

It's like this DNC sockpuppet show isn't really even paying attention to what they're typing.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

Blue State Jesse doesn't understand the difference between some shit someone once said and actual actions.

[Nardz]

Like inventing a story to frame and spy upon the administration then political prosecutions of members of it, eunuch?

[JesseAz]

Actual actions like I listed above WK?

[Sevo]

Asshole chipper claims what asshole chipper can't seem to prove.

[Sevo]

"Agreed. This is in no way comparable to anything the Democrats did four years ago..."

Assertions from TDS-infected lefty shits =/= argument or evidence, especially when they are so obviously ridiculous.

[lap83]

Not exactly, because some statisticians brought irregularities to her attention and for some reason she chose not to pursue them. Probably because she's just so nice like that. Lol

[tracerv]

HORSESHIT! You sir/ma'am are a fucking liar.

[JesseAz]

At least Reason will play this the same way and support 3 years of an investigation over claims, right? They wouldn't choose their coverage based on who was making what claims right?

[a libertarian]

Does it matter? You'll continue to read the headlines only and then make your routine comments accusing the author of saying the opposite of what they actually said

[JesseAz]

Except that isn't the opposite dummy. God damn the cosplays are dumb.

[Mother's Lament]

Pick a fucking sock and stick to it Jeff.

[BYODB]

I don't know, what were we saying about Al Gore and Florida?

Everyone knew that no matter who won this time, it was going to be a shit show with all the COVID 'emergency voting' scheme's.

Acting shocked about it just means you weren't paying attention.

[lap83]

They are paying attention, they just don't see Chinese interference and fraud as a problem because OMB.

[lap83]

Although, to be fair, they probably never saw fraud as a problem.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

What precisely is the alleged "Chinese interference" here?

[lap83]

You aren't worth it.

[lap83]

But I will commend you for indirectly acknowledging the fraud.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

So, no evidence.

[JesseAz]

You saw evidence earlier today in the Michigan report and said no biggie. Just a 68% voting tabulation error. No big deal.

[De Oppresso Liber]

Is an error the same as a fraud that stole the election from Trump?

Then what are you talking about?

[loveconstitution1789]

Fraud...government incompetence. Same-same result that states have their EC biden votes rejected in the congressional joint session or by the SCOTUS.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Sorry I missed the part in the Antrim report that said anything about alleged Chinese interference.

[Brandybuck]

> Acting shocked about it just means you weren’t paying attention.

On the other hand, pretending that all the spurious lawsuits and party-wide pants shitting are all okay is even worse than being shocked.

[BigT]

In the states where the rules for the election were changed by anyone other than the Legislatures of those states, the elections were unconstitutional. The only reason these haven't been treated better by the courts is that the remedy is a new election. This LOOKS BAD, so everyone just goes along with it.

Rule of law suffered a severe blow this year. And this is on top of all the newly legal rioting, looting, assault, vandalism, and arson. The US is becoming a banana republic.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

No, the rule of law prevailed. Trump lost 57 lawsuits.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

One per state?

[BigT]

Really? Maybe you need to read that old parchment:

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

Several states changed the rules without their legislatures directing the procedure. Thus, prime facie unconstitutional.

[Foo_dd]

the legislature was the one making the changes.... you have been lied to..... with the exception of the small number of ballots accepted by the extension in PA, the changes were made by the legislatures.

[Mother's Lament]

How many of those legislatures voted on the rule change again?

[Foo_dd]

all of them..... some of them before the pandemic happened.

[Mother's Lament]

For fucks sake, Jeff, now you're flat out lying. It's not like people can't google that shit you moron.

[Foo_dd]

i don't know who the fuck Jeff is, but he clearly lives rent free in your guys' heads. if what you said were true, you would be able to provide evidence instead of insults.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

The conspiratorial mindset is very prone to the "jump to conclusions" fallacy, in which they make snap judgements based on very little evidence without reasoning it out or waiting for a preponderance of evidence to establish itself.

[Mother's Lament]

How many of those legislatures voted on the rule change again?

[JesseAz]

In GA the executive settled with Abrams voter group over a lawsuit. In Wisconsin the election official changed how ballots could be corrected, letting workers fill in missing information. In Pa ballots were cured against state law prior to the election and ballot envelopes destroyed. I could go on if you want. None of these changes were by the legislature.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

That's all shit you made up for which there is no credible evidence.

[De Oppresso Liber]

60 losses.

I am really loving the total self destruction of the GOP. Incredible.

[R Mac]

You’re not planning on going back to pretending you’re not a lefty after this, are you?

[Foo_dd]

oh... i see.... rules that the legislature deferred to the executive are now somehow rules the legislature did not approve..... because they never tried to...... your attempts at pretending changes that are not real is pathetic.

[Mother's Lament]

rules that the legislature deferred to the executive are now somehow rules the legislature did not approve

Yes, exactly. And even then they didn't "defer" them to the governor.
That's not how any of this works you retarded piece of shit.

[loveconstitution1789]

Unreason gets it they just dont like that democrats violated constitutional and state laws and therefore Biden wont be president.

unreason is so corrupt of morals that cheating AND winning is okay if democrats win.

[Foo_dd]

these were not violations of the law, they were procedural discretion that that law allowed to happen..... law that was passed by legislatures.... I'm sorry you dumb fucks are too stupid to understand that..... there was no law violated. (which, is why all the legal challenges are failing.)

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

I don't believe that's accurate. I believe that there have been 57 lawsuits on behalf of Trump that have lost, but Trump and his legal team only have a small # of lawsuits.

[loveconstitution1789]

Technically most of those lawsuits are to protect constitutional law and procedure along with state election laws.

[JesseAz]

We already realize you dont care about the constitution WK.

[John el Galto]

We know, because voter fraud is legal now.

[raspberrydinners]

The only thing leading us to a banana republic is the constant shitting on the constitution by the Republicans and their orange king.

Some states changing election procedures that were otherwise NOT marred by widespread fraud due to a once in a 100 year pandemic seems quite small in comparison.

All we have here are sour grapes from losers and treasonous talk by those who would disregard millions of votes just because it didn't go to their guy. Ask yourself- why are they ONLY suing in the states that Biden won and do you think they were saying anything BEFORE the election? No- because if they had won they would have gleefully accepted the results.

[Mother's Lament]

is the constant shitting on the constitution by the Republicans and their orange king.

Oh, and what shitting on the constitution was that? you mendacious piece of shit. This isn't your DNC subreddit, we're not just going to nod along while you make shit up.

[MollyGodiva]

Asking the SC to throw out the votes of tens of millions of legal voters. The SC has no constitutional role in electing a president.

[loveconstitution1789]

Keep thinking that.

Trump wins the 12th amendment vote too.

[Mother's Lament]

And how is challenging legitimacy of a beyond sketchy vote count in court, shitting on the constitution, when those sorts of legal challenges are expressly permitted.

You're just vomiting out bullshit and hoping something sticks. Too bad for you that you're too ignorant to formulate a valid argument.

[John el Galto]

Dude enough, you got caught. The law says very clearly poll watchers must be allowed to observe the count (for one of many issues of illegality). When you slimy liberals blatantly violate the law, it's YOU shitting on the constitution.

The courts then stated that voter fraud is legal as long as it impacts enough votes above a certain threshold. So if you're going to lie, lie BIG to make it nice and legal.

The ass eating liberal "defenders" of the constitution legalized voter fraud!

[Foo_dd]

there were only two changes made in the entire country that were not approved by the legislatures.... one that the supreme court shot the opposition down and it wasn't enough to change the election outcome, and one in a state where the outcome was not even close........ what you are being lead to believe by the propaganda is false.

[JesseAz]

Thats a lie.

[Foo_dd]

the definition of a lie is not something you don't want to believe.

[Mother's Lament]

No, the definition of a lie is purposefully saying something you know to be false.
Like when you said "there were only two changes made in the entire country that were not approved by the legislatures".

[Foo_dd]

oh... . so what you motherfuckers have been doing for the last month..... with two exceptions, every significant change has been passed by the legislatures....

[loveconstitution1789]

Your citations fell off.

Georgia state legislators called out the unauthorized changes during their hearings.

[Foo_dd]

was this a real hearing or one of Rudy's BS dog and pony shows?

[John el Galto]

WTF is with your willful ignorance? Too busy eating Biden's ass to actually read something?

For one, it was the PA supreme court, NOT the legislature that declared voter fraud is legal now.

Can't wait to see how the Republicans exploit the new precedent in 2024! Karma's a bitch!

[Foo_dd]

the law challenged in the PA supreme court was passed by the legislature, moron.... the legislature passed it, the court upheld it..... and the word "fraud" was not anywhere even in the conversation.

the law was passed in 2019, and had already been used in the primaries..... nobody ever had any problem with it.... this was a bogus attempt to throw out legitimate ballots, after the fact, to try and subvert the clear will of the people.

[JesseAz]

I can name a dozen changes. Did more than 2 just above. So yes, it is a lie.

[SQRLSY One]

JesseSPAZ can’t be abidin’ with Biden, and settling for merely getting her hair smelled. JesseSPAZ wants to get back to having her pussy grabbed good and hard, by Der TrumpfenFuhrer!

[Foo_dd]

i can..... but i won't..... STFU.

[loveconstitution1789]

U reason refuses to post citations but demands citations.

[Mother's Lament]

Jeff and his pals have all the sockpuppets working tonight.

[Foo_dd]

I'm not the one making claims needing proof, motherfucker.

[damikesc]

Again, we just learned that cheating is now OK since fixing it would "disenfranchise" voters.

It's a lesson you will learn to regret.

[loveconstitution1789]

The other remedy is a 12th Amendment vote.

Trump electors and Biden electors are being sent to the Joint Session of Congress for jan 6.

Biden electoral votes should be tossed based on Democrat's election fraud.

[MollyGodiva]

12A only comes into play when no one gets a majority of the votes, and this year Biden got more then a majority.

[loveconstitution1789]

Jan 6 wont work out like you want unreason.

Even New Mexico sent a slate of trump electoral votes for joint session of congress.

[Foo_dd]

the shit show was trump convincing his supporters to vote in person despite the pandemic..... and then acting all surprised that the mail in ballots skewed towards Biden..... and then, after the fact, try to illegally throw out the mail in ballots. there were not actually that many changes this year, and those that were made were not new concepts as other states already did it that way.

trump created a disparity between in person and mail in ballots and then tried to throw out the mail in ballots because of the disparity he created....... and all the lemmings flock to his calling... that is the shit show. that is how we end up with lawsuits being laughed out of court. that is what is embarrassing as other countries look at us.

[damikesc]

Several openly violated the state's actual Constitutions.

So, again, we've learned that cheating is OK. Don't bitch when it bites your ass.

[Foo_dd]

you are either a liar, or stupid and falling for propaganda......

[loveconstitution1789]

Poor unreason. Their propaganda machine accusing non-lefties of succumbing to propaganda.

Funny since Lefties control the propaganda machine,

[Foo_dd]

poor fucktard..... too stupid to understand that his puppet masters won't even repeat the claims he was told to believe in a court room because they would lose their jobs for committing perjury...

[Michael S. Langston]

Can you link to anything showing Trump urged people to vote in-person over other alternatives?

[Foo_dd]

are you fucking kidding me? seriously....... after months of Trump attacking mail in voting, how can anyone seriously ask this question?

[loveconstitution1789]

Poor unreason. Millions of mailin ballots are getting tossed by the SCOTUS.

WI supreme court just admitted that ~215,000 mailin ballots are illegal but were counted.

[Foo_dd]

no.... the didn't....... you are just too stupid to grasp what the ruling actually meant...... they said that people get to decide for themselves if the condition apples to them making it impossible to call any of those ballots illegal.

[John el Galto]

LOL! What a downright incoherent response!

Where the fuck did your dumb ass learn how to string together two sentences?

[Foo_dd]

i'm sorry if one typo that changed "applies" to "apples" is too much for your puny brain to get around.

[John el Galto]

"embarrassing as other countries look at us."

I know, right? Even BURKINA FASO recently had their elections and they were found to be MORE SECURE than some US States.

That IS so embarrassing when a banana republic in Africa has less fraud than our country.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

I'm still curious to see if Youtube will remove every allegation of fraud which was claimed to change the outcome of the election in 2016.

[Formerly Cynical Asshole]

That's totes different. Because reasons.

[newshutz]

What's to say to a political magazine that is totally disinterested in voting irregularities?

[JesseAz]

They are globalists. They like Biden. Nothing more to say. They will pretend to complain about the actions he takes over the next 4 years knowing they tacitly supported them during the run up to the election. They are dishonest people.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

What do you have against globalism? From a libertarian perspective, all globalism means is that liberty transcends national borders. That "all men are created equal" applies everywhere, not just to Americans. How is that somehow bad or terrible?

[BigT]

Globalism means one world government to many people. So, yes, anyone with a brain realizes it is very dangerous. Just think of the UN being in charge, with Iran defining human rights and China policing privacy. Yeah, globalism, in that sense, is the worst of all possible worlds.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

That's not what globalism means to most people.

[JesseAz]

Just because you're a fucking retard doesn't mean globalism isn't the removal of power from the people. It requires a further pull of power fromol localities. Hillary and biden both consider themselves globalist. Pro UN people who want them to have more power call themselves globalist.

The EU is a fine example of power pulled from countries in a measure similar to globalism. It is granting of powers to so called central elites where any individual has virtually no capability on change.

Youre not a libertarian.

[BigT]

The EU is actually a much nicer example than what would happen with the entire world. The EU countries at least try to behave in a civilized manner. China, Russia, Iran, Saudi, Philippines, etc, not so much.

Consolidation of power in smaller groups is almost always the wrong way to go. Power should be kept and exercised as close to the people as possible.

[John el Galto]

There you liberals go again with that "my truth" horse shit.

You can have all the fantasies you want about what globalism means "to you." But here in reality we Republicans know that it does mean one world government. You'd have to be a blind, ass eating, retard not to see that.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

From a libertarian perspective, think of a Libertopian UN being in charge.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

And you can guarantee every nation would go along with that they will respect our civil rights and that they won’t mind seeing people and goods crossing their borders without knowing who or what.

The answer is you cannot you aren’t even able to do that here much less influence any other country.

In short you are smoking the libertarian pipe dream.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Nope, can't happen right now. But maybe, if we negotiate and cooperate among borders and reach agreement that permit the freer - not totally free, but freer than now - movement of people and goods across borders, we can at some point in the future reach a place where liberty is respected everywhere. But we can't ever get there if we remain stuck in this America First pose (which is really an America Alone position).

[mad.casual]

Radical individualist dreams of world that aligns with world government, mass media, and subjugated populations where all governments respect a standard set of liberties that may or may not give two shits about the individual.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

How would having liberty respected everywhere result in a "subjugated population"?

Liberty by definition respects the individual. That's the whole point.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Liberty by definition respects the individual. That’s the whole point.

Not according to how many people define it.

[JesseAz]

Who is enforcing your liberty among nation states? You are a dumb naive mother fucker.

[mad.casual]

How would having liberty respected everywhere result in a “subjugated population”?

Currently subjugated populations. Your individualist streak jives pretty well with lots of people who love their government and don't particularly care about individual freedom one way or the other. Especially other people in other nations' freedoms.

[John el Galto]

"reach a place where liberty is respected everywhere."

That's what was supposed to happen when we opened trade relations with China, and look where THAT got us.

[Social Justice is neither]

So a fantasy that only exists in your head, no thanks

[chemjeff radical individualist]

It's an aspiration. When the Declaration of Independence was written, the phrase "all men are created equal" was just a fantasy too, but over time we are getting to a place where that phrase is becoming truer and truer.

[loveconstitution1789]

Trump's first term had massive wealth growth for equality. Trump's second term as president will see even more.

Plus more and more Black and Hispanic Americans leaving the Democrat Party.

[R Mac]

The UN has been around for 75 years. When exactly is it going to become “Libertopian”?

He’ll, just look at the EU. Most of its member states at least have a concept of liberty, and it’s nowhere near libertarian.

It’s a cute fantasy you have of globalism, Jeff, but reality keeps laughing at you.

[R Mac]

Hell.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

The UN that currently exists will probably never become "Libertopian". Then again "Libertopia" doesn't really exist either.

He’ll, just look at the EU. Most of its member states at least have a concept of liberty, and it’s nowhere near libertarian.

The freer trade and open internal borders of the EU are more libertarian than before the EU, wouldn't you agree?

[R Mac]

Maybe. But like any other bureaucracy, it just grows and grows beyond its original purpose and is far from libertarian now.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

There are good parts and there are bad parts, of course. Having a huge stifling bureaucracy is not my idea of "globalist libertopia", of course. It's also not a necessary requirement for globalism per se.

[R Mac]

Yet here we are. Actually here I am, in the real world, where the EU and UN exist as they do.

You’re like a naive socialist that’s convinced if just the right Top Men are in charge, your fantasy world will be realized.

Also you still don’t give a shit about slaves in other parts of the world as long as you can buy that shit for cheap.

[JesseAz]

Iran being on the human rights council proves how effective the UN is.

[JesseAz]

Thanks you. You have proven you want to move power further from the individual you authoritarian fuck.

[JesseAz]

Globalism removes power further from the individual fuckwit.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Certain variations of it do, sure. The libertarian variation of it does not.

[R Mac]

And the libertarian variation exists in your dreams, while the one where control increasingly rests with global corporations, tech companies, and bureaucrats.

Then again you’ve already made it clear you don’t care about Uighur's as long as you can get cheap shit, so I’m questioning your sincerity.

[R Mac]

while the one where control increasingly rests with global corporations, tech companies, and bureaucrats, exists in the real world.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

The libertarian version of globalism is better encapsulated within free trade agreements, rather than with institutions like the UN. NO, they are not PERFECT FREE TRADE, but they do reflect the freer movement of goods and people than we would have otherwise.

[R Mac]

Well good luck with your version of globalism. I’m going to focus on the one that really exists.

[JesseAz]

Just because you make up naive bullshit doesn't mean you're a libertarian. You really are a child.

[Enlightened Atheist]

JEFF-
Sigh, why even argue for the f*@king libertarian version? Pardon my language, but seriously you had a strong enough argument before without having to stoop to their level and roll around in the dung with them. These people are semi-r*tarded, you don't need or want to be accepted by them.
Also please respond to me, it's strange you only want to reply to these mongoloid hillbillies but you won't respond to me, who is actually on your side and generally in agreement with you.
Thanks.

[John el Galto]

You don't know much about the nature of power, do you? Power tends to collect in one place over time. The nation state helps scatter that power and limit the effects of consolidation to specific regions.

With globalism, the consolidation of power would have no such limits.

[Enlightened Atheist]

Globalism removes power further from the individual f--kwit.

Wrong. Globalism gives prosperity to all individuals, often prosperity they never even imagined could have existed.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Yes, if it's one thing that defines "prosperity," it's factory suicide nets.

[Enlightened Atheist]

Okay wow, is this some kind of sick joke? Are you actually trying to convince me those people would be better off committing suicide?
At least you're being honest about what kind of monster you are. Let me take a wild guess, you're a Christian white cisgender male edge-lord, age 15 with a high-speed internet connection who likes to bully people on the internet. How'd I do?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

So you think factory suicide nets are okay?

[Enlightened Atheist]

Are you f@*king serious??? No people should NOT kill themselves.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

But you said globalism provided prosperity to all individuals. Why would factories need suicide nets if that was the case?

[Enlightened Atheist]

Those people clearly need help. Shorter workdays, better healthcare, better psychiatric care for these people would be a great start and I think we can all agree that that would be an achievable goal worth striving towards.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

So you were wrong and globalism hasn't provided prosperity to all people?

[Enlightened Atheist]

You are killing me, I can't believe I’m sitting here arguing on the internet with a 15 year old incel right now. So because every person on the face of planet Earth hasn't been lifted from poverty, globalism, the system that has lifted more people from poverty than anything in history, is to blame? Solid logic.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

I can't believe it either--you claimed in one breath that globalism provides prosperity to all people and then admitted in the next breath that it didn't, and are now claiming you never said what you actually said.

[Enlightened Atheist]

You clearly don't understand the concept of time.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Neither do you, since you apparently can't remember what you typed four hours ago.

[Enlightened Atheist]

Globalism gives prosperity to all individuals

This doesn't mean that it already has brought prosperity to every single person on Earth, it means that in time, it will. Like seriously, your pre-pubescent aspy r*tard mind can't even grasp the simple concept of conversation.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Why are you still trying to claim you didn't say something that you said, while adding post hoc qualifications?

[Enlightened Atheist]

Also nice language, bud.

[mad.casual]

all globalism means is that liberty transcends national borders. That “all men are created equal” applies everywhere, not just to Americans. How is that somehow bad or terrible?

Because it's a lie. We aren't spreading American liberties abroad, we're importing abrogation of human liberties/rights domestically. It's not like anywhere else is suddenly recognizing the 1A or 2A as broadly as the US does. It's not like the US, with lockdowns, is getting a greater respect for the 1A/free association. The idea that globalism = more freedom is such a transparent lie that anyone who repeats it should be suspected of, if not lying, actively advocating for the erosion of human rights... everywhere.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Why do you all act as if "globalism" has only one specific narrow meaning?

Globalism is a broad concept - nation-states working together - that can be implemented in a very large number of ways. Some of those ways are very bad and coercive. If "globalism" only meant "world dictatorship" then of course I would be opposed to such a thing. That is terrible. But globalism doesn't have to mean worldwide tyranny. It could also mean worldwide liberty. That is why I favor globalism from a libertarian perspective. Because human liberty really does transcend national borders, and globalism, FROM A LIBERTARIAN POINT OF VIEW, means bringing that idea to fruition.

So yes I am opposed to globalist ideas that result in further restrictions of liberty. That doesn't mean I'm opposed to globalism in its entirety, only to those repressive ideas.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

One of the most damaging ideas to come out of the yokel strand of libertarianism (think Mises Institute) is the idea that decentralization is always better for individual liberty. This completely fallacious poppycock has been put to rest by Jacob Levy as explained by Roderick Long here.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Thank you for that article. I will have to put that book on my reading list.

[JesseAz]

Lol. Central planning will ways decrease liberty no matter how many bows you put on it. You are literally making unequal levers of power. Holy shit is the ignorance strong in the cosplay bunch.

Just ignore thousands of years of human history.

You fuckwits really are the sophomore high school physics kid who thinks they solved string theory because they can do simple ideal non friction equations.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

Central planning ended slavery.

[Enlightened Atheist]

YES, finally someone on these threads who isn't legally r*tarded.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

You're not going to turn to ash if you type out "retarded," retard.

[Enlightened Atheist]

I choose to live above the filth and degeneration that words like that harbor. You should try it sometime.
A little advice for you: purify your mind of hateful thoughts and images, lose the fictional god(s) from your life, read a book by Sam Harris and look out for and protect those in need. You'll be much happier not trying so hard to be an internet edge-lord. I know you think you look 'macho' and tough in front of all your friends here but here's a newsflash: you don't.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

That sounds pretty retarded.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

No, it didn't. Wars did that.

And there are still slave markets in the world, so you're not even right there.

[John el Galto]

No it didn't. Central planning DID, however, kill hundreds of millions of people throughout world history.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Globalism leans towards utopian ideals. They're more often than not, rooted in "benevolent" ideas, but in reality result in nations losing sovereignty, giving up local control to far-away leaders. Sure, it would be great if every nation and every people in the world believed in a model of universal human rights, but the reality is they don't.

For instance:

Because human liberty really does transcend national borders

My version sure does.

[mad.casual]

Because human liberty really does transcend national borders, and globalism, FROM A LIBERTARIAN POINT OF VIEW, means bringing that idea to fruition.

Incorrect. Libertarianism is agnostic with regard to globalism. Moreover, between property rights and NAP/non-interventionalism, there is no "bringing ideas to fruition" aspect to libertarianism and the idea of bringing ideas to fruition itself implies if not necessitates authoritarianism.

People don't need governments to protect their liberties as they cross the Bering straight or the waters of the Pacific any more in 2020 than they did in 13,000 BCE. It's plainly stupid ass-backwards thinking that assumes liberty only comes from a government or unified philosophy. Like people can only be free if they believe in globalism moreover, it falsely prioritizes the ability to move around the globe as the only freedom. Just like the 'right to privacy' can be extrapolated to a right to deceive and defraud, unfettered globalism implies a right to trespass and/or invade. Libertarianism is moot with regard to nationalism vs. globalism and to pretend otherwise is to stupidly suggest that a larger, more far-reaching government can't oppress you more than a more local one.

The more you talk about it, the more clear it is that you prioritize lots of other things over individual liberty. You may claim individual liberty as an end, but you'll prioritize just about anything ahead of it, including many things that have absolutely nothing to do with it.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Libertarianism is agnostic with regard to globalism.

Well I suppose that gets back to the perpetual "who's the real libertarian" argument. I'll just state what I believe and let others judge whether it is bona-fide "libertarian" or not. To me, having borders that arbitrarily hamper the free flow of goods and people is an infringement on individual liberty. Removing those borders - or at least, removing those arbitrary barriers - would increase liberty overall and ought to be a goal pursued by those interested in liberty for its own sake. Doing either one - either eliminating borders, or eliminating the arbitrary restrictions on liberty that borders represent - can broadly be thought of as "globalist" in nature.

People don’t need governments to protect their liberties as they cross the Bering straight or the waters of the Pacific any more in 2020 than they did in 13,000 BCE. It’s plainly stupid ass-backwards thinking that assumes liberty only comes from a government or unified philosophy.

No - liberty does not arise from government. But governments are instituted among men so as to protect liberty.

The more you talk about it, the more clear it is that you prioritize lots of other things over individual liberty.

I view individual liberty in an expansive manner. The Hobbesian "state of nature" is not a state of pure liberty.

[R Mac]

“But governments are instituted among men so as to protect liberty.”

Our government was. Very few others, in the history of mankind, have been.

But you know that. We’ve now reached the point of the argument where you just make up bullshit because you’ve twisted yourself in a pretzel.

[Michael S. Langston]

To me, having borders that arbitrarily hamper the free flow of goods and people is an infringement on individual liberty.

Sure, a border to my property also infringes on someone's ability to arbitrarily move across it or build a dwelling on, but libertarianism also believes in private property rights. And borders are simply an extension of those rights. Though I too wish the flow of people and goods were easier, the removal of borders would violate libertarianism's need to protect private property.

[damikesc]

Globalism has led to censorship inside the US. Hardly a positive.

[Enlightened Atheist]

What's wrong with mild censorship? Clearly people a little censorship and clearly some people actually require censorship.

[Enlightened Atheist]

***Clearly people want a little censorship***

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

What's wrong with hate speech?

[Enlightened Atheist]

If you're going to try and justify racism and hatred to me you've already lost the argument. Think again before entering the ring with me, I've been known to (verbally) take down my foes swiftly and mercilessly; you might find yourself more embarrassed than you've ever been. With a name like "Red Rocks WHITE PRIVILEGE" you are either very smart to recognize your disposition within the Colorado diaspora and global diaspora et al or you're very uneducated and hateful and think it's funny to make jokes at the expense of minorities and BIPOC in this country. Which is it? Your answer dictates how we proceed, for your sake I hope you make the right decision.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

You never actually answered the question.

[Enlightened Atheist]

Okay how about this, what isn't wrong with hate speech?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

What's wrong with hate speech?

[Enlightened Atheist]

This is clearly getting us nowhere. You obviously can't answer my simple question without falling flat on your face and embarrassing yourself. How do I convince someone of your, um, mental capacity that hate = bad? I'd rather live my life respecting the people around me and making sure that they are accepted and comfortable and free to pursue their dreams uninhibited by fear and hate than to possibly hurt everyone around me. It's really that simple.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

You failed pretty spectacularly at answering mine, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about.

[Enlightened Atheist]

Still deflecting, I see.

Enlightened Atheist: 1

Red Rocks White Privilege: 0

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Still avoiding, I see.

Red Rocks White Privilege: 10

Enlightened Atheist: -4

[Enlightened Atheist]

I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION ASSHOLE

Enlightened Atheist: 2

Red Rocks White Privilege: -1

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

NO YOU DIDN'T, RETARD

Red Rocks White Privilege: 69
Enlightened Atheist: -420

[Enlightened Atheist]

I get that it can be hard to admit defeat, but sometimes when you've been bested it's better if you just lay down your weapons, fly the white flag and give up. You're clearly outmatched both intellectually and verbally so I’m going to end this right now for your sake.

Final score---

Enlightened Atheist: 3

Red Rocks White Privilege: -2

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

I get that it can be hard to admit defeat, but sometimes when you’ve been bested it’s better if you just lay down your weapons, fly the white flag and give up.

Speaking from experience?

Red Rocks White Privilege: 666

Enlightened Atheist: -gorillion

[Enlightened Atheist]

You are one seriously sick puppy, White Privilege. We will resume this at a later date.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

I guess "sticks and stones" are a bridge too far for some people.

[Nardz]

This is my favorite new account

[Michael S. Langston]

So where's the book burning party and who exactly gets to decide what ideas are appropriate or not to be allowed?

Do you seriously not understand the danger of this at all?

[Enlightened Atheist]

The danger in not ruining other people's lives because you think it's fun to be an internet edge-lord?

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

I love globalism.

[Juice]

Build back better.

[mad.casual]

Lock it down till it dies. Then build back better.

[Michael S. Langston]

lol

[JesseAz]

Yeah, why you aren't libertarian. Youre moving power away from the individual.

All you cosplay retards are the same. It is why you aren't a federalist either. It is why you blindly accept narratives from your betters.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

Fuck off, worshiper of fascism. There are many instances of globalism increasing individual rights and liberty, from bringing secular ideas to totalitarian theocracies in the Middle East, to educating African girls about feminism, to bringing business opportunities to poor farmers to sell their seeds on eBay.

[JesseAz]

Yeah, the fact i want individual empowerment makes me a fascist. Lol. You fucking retard.

Keep clapping for globalism. Joe, kamala, Hillary, Obama, et al all believe the same way you do. Statist fuck.

[De Oppresso Liber]

The fact that you want elections thrown out makes you a fascist.

It's not hard to figure out.

BTW, great look in DC and Olympia. Attacking black churches is totally not racist.

[R Mac]

Jesse was in DC? Oh wait, you’re just making shit up again, you dishonest piece of shit. It’s what you do.

[damikesc]

...yet it managed to allow governments to utterly stomp on their citizens more than any other point in human history. Weird.

[Michael S. Langston]

Yeah, third world nation building has worked out so well for the US so far that it's bound to work out in the future.

Just ask the Taliban, the group in charge of Afghanistan, how well it worked out over the last b 50 years.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

I like my version.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

But they are experts in beclownment. They've been beclowning themselves for four years.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

OT: I was thinking back this morning about the now-outmoded idea where the democratization of free speech would be good for America. Anyone else remember those days?

[Michael S. Langston]

Free speech? Surely ye jest!?!?

[Nardz]

I remember when I was a kid hearing the rejoinder "hey, it's a free country" commonly as a response to someone's stated desire to do something.

Can't remember the last time I've heard it...

[loveconstitution1789]

In Georgia we say it a lot... To the people who choose to wear masks and be all scared about the kungflu.

[NoVaNick]

So the EC elects Biden and Trump does what?

A. Accepts the result and quietly bows out without shaking Biden’s hand

B. Orders national guard to take control of state governments in GA, MI, and PA until they grant him favorable electors. (He could do this, but would he?)

[Lord of Strazele]

How pray tell does one "take control" of a state govt? Put guns to legislators' heads and why would you even bother to dress it up at that point?

[NoVaNick]

It wouldn’t stop Trump, he takes pride in pissing on constitutional precedent and would invoke his role as commander in chief

[Lord of Strazele]

That would pissing on the other side of the Rubicon and you know how that story ends.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

Oh look Lard Lad picked up a new word today. Ya look that up in your dictionary Strudel or did you see someone else post it.

[Lord of Strazele]

Yes, I learned it from someone else. I guess you were born with knowledge.

[Mother's Lament]

Jeff thought the Rubicon was a puzzle cube, until he read that Voxplainer.

[JesseAz]

Examples?

[I, Woodchipper]

what the hell are you talking about? You're as insane as the worse case of TDS if you think trump will invade the states with the National Guard to install his electors.

How would that even work exactly?

TDS is strong

[loveconstitution1789]

Lefties cannot even work within the constitution framework.

Biden electors are not being accepted by a joint session of congress jan 6 or being tossed earlier by the SCoTUs because of their respective state democrat election fraud.

Even New Mexico sent a slate of Trump electoral votes. Hahaha. The media forgot to inform us that NM was in play.

I called that Trump would win more Ec than 2016. Trump will get NM electoral college votes. Hahaha

[Roberta]

Because it'd be such a hilarious sight! I'd pay to see it if it was real.

[a libertarian]

He will complain on twitter and then not actually do anything about it, like he usually does.

[Foo_dd]

pretty sure there are enough soldiers that understand what it means to protect the constitution to make B not viable.

[Roberta]

What if their sense of humor overcomes that understanding?

[loveconstitution1789]

Trump sent electoral votes and Biden sent electoral votes.

Jan 6 is a Joint Session of Congress to challenge those votes.

It's gonna be Civil war 2.0 either way because Democrats wont accept their EC votes getting tossed because the elections in WI, MI, PA, GA, AZ, NV have been show to be fraudulent.

Non-Lefties like me dont see a need to accept tyranny where elections are rigged. Since Lefties started Civil war 2.0, Woodchippers for Lefties.

[MollyGodiva]

Nope. Congress will open 306 EC votes for Biden and that will not change. There will not be any competing votes because there can not be any, federal law says that only the certified EC votes from states can be counted.

[loveconstitution1789]

Aw..poor unreason.

I wonder why even New Mexico sent Trump slate of electors.

Biden electoral cotes are getting tossed because of democrat election fraud or the contested biden electors dont get counted by the joint session.

I warned y’all trump was getting his second term.

[loveconstitution1789]

It is funny that unreason doesnt even know how the constitution works.

I knew Lefties would try to say that electoral voting day means Biden won and dismiss the jan 6, 2021 EC vote counting and challenge day.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

He's not going to do anything other than flail about the next few weeks. Barr's jumped ship now and he lost his last potential avenue to have the election results reversed when the SC didn't take the Texas case.

I'm eagerly awaiting what his final pardons might be. If he lets Snowden and Ol' Uncle Ted off, it will take ten years to recover my sides from orbit.

[loveconstitution1789]

New Mexico, AZ, NV, GA, PA, MI, WI sent trump electoral votes to joint session of congress for challenges jan 6.

Republicans have multiple plans running and its not for for Biden or democrats.

Clarence Thomas still didnt retire so trump could replace him after the texas case was not heard. If you believe lying media, Biden/Harris would be in power for 10 years. Democrats aint winning this fight.

[BigT]

Having not listened to their blatherings yet, I wonder if they discuss the clearly unconstitutional last minute change to the election process in many states. Only the LEGISLATURE can make those changes, yet some governors and others went ahead and made a bunch of changes. None of these AFAIK were approved by their legislatures. Hence the election really was unconstitutional.

Given that, who has standing to sue these states? This is written in the US constitution - can't someone from the general public sue them? If not, why not? If the state SCs turn them down, why can't they be appealed to the SCOTUS?

Rule of law took a massive blow. And likely the most fervent Trump supporters will cause some trouble, and rightly so. Combined with the 6 months of rioting, looting, vandalism, assault, and arson displayed by the deranged leftists, we are slouching into a civil war of sorts. It will be a guerilla war for a while, and the leftists will get the better of that for a while due to their better organization, but in time the extremists on the right are better armed and better trained, so more Commie blood will be spilt.

[CarolynBaxter]

I am making a good salary from home $1300-$2600/week , which is amazing, under a year back I was jobless in a horrible economy. I thank mjg God every day I was blessed with these instructions and now it's my duty yjr to pay it forward and share it with Everyone, Here is what I do...... Click Here

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I wonder if they discuss the clearly unconstitutional last minute change to the election process in many states. Only the LEGISLATURE can make those changes, yet some governors and others went ahead and made a bunch of changes. None of these AFAIK were approved by their legislatures. Hence the election really was unconstitutional.

Well that depends.

If you interpret the Elector Clause so narrowly as to mean that every single detail of every election must be approved by an explicit vote of the Legislature, then sure, I guess you're right. But IMO that is far too narrow of an interpretation of that clause.

On the other hand, if the legislature delegated some authority to an executive branch agency to manage elections, and that agency made some changes within the bounds of the discretion that was granted to them by the legislature, then I don't think that a federal court should second-guess that decision.

[Mother's Lament]

"if the legislature delegated some authority to an executive branch agency to manage elections"

Oh no. It's retarded... and spookily authoritarian.

[damikesc]

"If you interpret the Elector Clause so narrowly as to mean that every single detail of every election must be approved by an explicit vote of the Legislature, then sure, I guess you’re right. But IMO that is far too narrow of an interpretation of that clause."

In other words, "Words mean what I want them to mean".

Again, you will regret this. Horribly. Remember this forever

[loveconstitution1789]

The other big lie by Lefties is that the changes to election laws were substantial.

For Georgia, not checking signatures on absentee ballots is a night-day change from state election law.

[DesigNate]

it’s plain English. But I guess the founders should have known there’d be disingenuous fucks in the future who would argue that it wasn’t clear and put a side note in there that it couldn’t be delegated to another branch.

[raspberrydinners]

Ah ok- would you be making this stink if Trump won?

Nah, didn't think so. Thanks for playing. Cry more.

[mad.casual]

Ah ok- would you be making this stink if Trump won?

I'd have to see the evidence. I said as much in the other threads; the progressive climb and jumps in the D/R ratio in a bag of supposedly mixed/randomized ballots is concerning and should be investigated no matter who is in charge. Trumps FBI should be currently investigating it. Biden's FBI should be looking into it next. Obama's FBI should've been looking into it in Nov. of 2016.

Not that you were looking for or care about people actually being genuinely 'both sides' about the issue.

[MJaneKelly]

We've all been to a sporting event and watched the refs throw it against our team, and sometimes throw it for our team. But those are games.
I don't care who was in office -- Obama, Clinton, Trump, China Joe -- everyone should care about what just happened to our voting systems: total across the board cheating at the highest level of technology (Dominion, Smartmatic, GEMS) right on down to low level dumb people being told to run the same Biden ballot through the machine a thousand times (Detroit, Atlanta, Philly, Nevada et al).

[Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)]

To request a legal remedy you have to suffer actual harm. Surprisingly the benefits of all the last minute changes to the elections skewed in the favor of a single candidate.

[loveconstitution1789]

Trump sent electoral votes and Biden sent electoral votes to Congress for their Joint Session Jan 6.

If the SCOTUS has not thrown out the results of the illegal elections in WI, MI, PA, GA, AZ and NV, then Congress can challenge all the Biden electoral votes until no winner is selected.

12th Amendment here we come!

[MollyGodiva]

These changes were paperwork details, and did not allow anyone to vote who was not eligible to vote. Even if we accept the changes were illegal, it would be wrong to throw out the votes, and quite wrong to say the the election was fraudulent.

[MJaneKelly]

Seriously? That's the equivalent of saying the media didn't lie about Russia collusion for four years or hide Biden's corruption until after the election. They did, and the cheating was rampant, and it will all be revealed right after they get rid of Biden and put Kamala in place, because no one blames her.

[De Oppresso Liber]

You know how I know you are a kook?

Everything you typed up above.

[R Mac]

Kinda makes you want to mow him down with an Apache helicopter, doesn’t it, you sociopathic fuck.

[Nardz]

No, he wouldn't fight his own battles - he wants Daddy Gov to do it

[John el Galto]

"Even if we accept the changes were illegal, it would be wrong to throw out the votes"

In other words, it's ok to commit voter fraud. Those laws that say how you're supposed to handle ballots, those are just suggestions now that don't really mean anything.

[Lord of Strazele]

Personally, I'm enjoying watching the drowning man struggle and the others debase themselves.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

You’re too fat to wade in and help anyway Strudel.

[Lord of Strazele]

Built like a whale or seal? Hippos do pretty well in the water too.

[Mother's Lament]

But beach balls just kind of roll.

[loveconstitution1789]

Yeah, unreason is pretty bad. I mean Biden cannot even form sentences without dementia making speech a real problem for him.

[MJaneKelly]

On election day he introduced his granddaughter (who loathes him) as his deceased son, Beau, and thanked the crowd for electing him to the senate. Imagine if your boss did that once. Biden does it every time he speaks off teleprompter.
https://nypost.com/2020/11/03/joe-biden-says-son-beau-was-senator-mixes-up-granddaughters-in-pa/

[Don't look at me!]

RESIST!
Not my president.
#NeverBiden
Impeach!

[Mother's Lament]

"That's different because shut up, bot!"

[JFree]

What to say to a political party that keeps trying to overturn the results of an election?

Well maybe - You have no principles apart from doing whatever it takes to win an election

But of course - so what else is new?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

And it is absolutely the same with Team Blue.

[JesseAz]

Lol. Jeff is pretending he is neutral again.

[a libertarian]

At least the democrats were savvy enough to go with nebulous claims like "Russian interference". Repubs went full retard and actually claimed votes were switched and hoped no one would demand evidence lmao

[MJaneKelly]

Uh, votes were switched, and only a full retard would say otherwise. Real live people signed affidavits saying exactly that. Sadly, we have a media much like China now: they make sure you only read what they want you to. They BLOCKED the Hunter Biden story. Now, they will use it to get rid of Joe.
One in six Biden voters would have changed their minds if they had known the full story...that's a fact. And so of course the MSM helped elect Biden almost as much as the GEMS software and the fake ballots. https://hereistheevidence.com

[Brandybuck]

> Real live people signed affidavits saying exactly that.

Affidavits means nothing. At best they can get a lying buttlicker in jail for perjury. But not worth the judge's time. The affidavits we've been allowed to see (very few of them) are useless, just baseless conjecture and hearsay. Zero substance to them. Shit that wouldn't stand up in court of they were on the stand.

[loveconstitution1789]

Poor unreason. Trump sent electoral votes and Biden sent electoral votes to Congress.

Democrats think they won just like they thought they won all the other times their stupid plans failed.

[loveconstitution1789]

New Mexico even sent a slate of Trump electoral votes. Hahaha.

Jan 6 joint session of congress is going to be fun.

[MollyGodiva]

Wow. You guys just can't not say something about Hunter Biden, even if it is completely irrelevant.

[De Oppresso Liber]

but her eeeemails 2020 version.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

For all your drama about "Russian interference," you're hilariously blase about Hillary doing something that would have gotten you thrown in jail.

[R Mac]

Remember when DOL came here occasionally, and pretended he wasn’t a Democrat? Now, every single time I come here he’s busy defending Democrats.

[DesigNate]

I see you’re just a Chapo troll. Makes sense given how you post.

[JesseAz]

We know votes were switched. See Antrim County. Question is if any others were as well. But nobody was do a forensic audit. Just the one county. And it looks terrible based on the report.

[MJaneKelly]

Exactly. What do they all have to hide? Well, cheating in an election is a felony, so they have a lot to hide. And getting paid off to cheat in an election is an even bigger felony. Someday it will all come out, but not in a book by Bob Woodward or in the MSM. Ask any 14 year old which is worse: a sitting President breaking into an office building to look at files or a sitting President using a real Russian spy to create a phony dossier on a President-elect to accuse him of treason. They will all say they same thing. But there won't be any movies about the Steele dossier...

[creech]

Which president broke into an office building?

[Mother's Lament]

Obama, but he had Brennan acting as a proxy.

[JesseAz]

That was congressional computers. Oh, you mean the other time!

[MJaneKelly]

I was talking about Nixon. Forgot about Obama. And I guess I forgot about the Clintons looking at everyone's FBI files, totally against the rules. No, I like to laugh about Nixon and how almost 50 years ago a President did a really sneaky, unethical, illegal thing. Now, Amazon has over 1000 titles on that topic, and let's not forget about the movies, remakes, and documentaries. And here we sit in 2020 and what they did to Trump and Carter Page and General Flynn and even Brent Kavanaugh is about as despicable and evil as anything Nixon dreamed up, but PALES IN COMPARISON to Hillary and Obama's Steele Dossier and: crickets. No story there, folks. What "journalists" covered that illegal, unethical, awful series of events? Maybe someone will step up and write a book about Joe Biden and Burisma and how Trump got impeached for asking about the TRUTH, that the media then covered up. Wow. Y'all following along? Hunter shagged his dead brother's wife then got some gal pregnant while he was doing that. Dr Jill's tweets are pure gold. Even that she calls herself "Dr. Jill." She's a doctor, fam. But a first name doctor. It's really going to be fun for awhile.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

Well republicans learned some new poll tricks this year. Let’s hope they use them. Democrats have had a longer time at this - cheating and stealing elections is nothing new to them.

[JFree]

Ah cool - a lesser evil R who only wants for the R's to cheat more

[JesseAz]

You were fine with all the voting irregularities this year. Why offended now?

[JFree]

You people are like 9/11 truthers.

Yes but the building collapsed at the speed of light. Therefore it was all a hoax.

[Mother's Lament]

Tell us all about the Steele file and peeing Russian prostitutes again.

[JesseAz]

Ask him about 2 million covid dead lol. He still denies he said it.

[JesseAz]

So I'm right. You are fine with all the irregularities. Just say so dummy.

[John el Galto]

The Democrats legalized voter fraud, and the courts upheld that it's legal, too. So what's the problem? The courts said it's ok.

[MollyGodiva]

It would be funny if the Rs tried to do what they are accusing the Ds of doing. They will be easily caught.

[loveconstitution1789]

Democrats are caught. Luckily, the constitution strikes again against democrats.

[MJaneKelly]

I used to think the Democrats were the good guys. Open minded, cared about racism, gay rights, poor people, the under served. 2020: the Democrats are the party that funded a nationwide election fraud plan using a pandemic as a cover, so as to elect an 80 year old SENILE hair sniffing pedo racist who sold our country out to the Ukraine and China, and who spent four years lying about Trump and Russia using the MSM as their megaphone, while terrifying people with 24/7 COVID counters and blaming Trump for a virus created by China Joe's payday people, encouraging looters and anarchists to ruin small businesses in a quest for power that is only rivaled by the BIG WINNER in all this: Xi Jinping. Democrats suck. Total monsters who love censorship. You reap what you sow. Trump can sail off and play golf at Mar a lago. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it's going to be all downhill from here. America is slowly awakening not only to the DNC game plan (Swalwell comes to mind), but to the fact that the MSM and Big Tech covered for Biden's REAL crimes with the same enthusiasm they pushed out false claims against Orange Man Bad. 1984, only worse.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

"I used to think the Democrats were the good guys. Then Fox News melted my brain."

[MJaneKelly]

You assume I think Republicans are the good guys? No. But at least they DON'T PRETEND TO BE. Much prefer a real live asshat to someone who pretends to care about people and is actually evil. Hillary comes to mind.

[Michael S. Langston]

A tangentially relevant quote from Lincoln you might like:

As a nation, we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' We now practically read it 'all men are created equal, except negroes.' When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy.

[MJaneKelly]

I'm trying to find a nice, safe, good healthcare country with open borders like China Joe and Kamala and Soros want for the USA, but there aren't any. Lmk if you hear of one.
Here's some clown from the Left arguing in favor of it, yet somehow no country has adopted it. Puzzling.
https://www.democracywithoutborders.org/4421/seven-reasons-why-there-should-be-open-borders/

[JesseAz]

No side jeff everyone!

[Mother's Lament]

"b0tH sIdEs!!" - t. Jeff

[R Mac]

Lying Jeffy defending DNC? I’m shocked.

[MollyGodiva]

Somehow I don't think you were ever a supporter of Democrats. And if you were, wow you got brain worms.

[MJaneKelly]

Are you Jeff? Or do you both think a good retort to something is say "brain worms" or someone's "brain melted?" Obtuse. But I knew that already by your comments. Yours are particularly slow-witted and devoid of reason, ironically.

[Nancy Kozikowski]

Are you Jeff?

No, this is a shreek sock. An old one. He's been busting out all his old socks since the election for some reason. This one. Dajjal. AddictionMyth. Foo_dd. I guess he figured the people who were around to remember his old handles had all gone.

[Foo_dd]

am i to understand that you idiots actually think there are only two people on the whole planet who think you are stupid?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! What a bunch of morons you guys are.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Well said.

[Brandybuck]

Yes, "beclownment" is the right word. I've never heard of a US political party acting like this before. Completely out of touch of reality and willing to debase themselves in their gratification of Trump. And of course, when called out on it, they invariable point at the Democrats and say, "But mom! They did it first!" As if somehow that is the basis of all morality.

I was a member of the Republican Party for many years, even elected to the county committee and delegate to the state convention. I left the Libertarian Party because they went full retard on the conspiracy theories. Now the Republican Party has gone full retard to the point that the LP looks like a font of sanity and rationality in comparison. The party and all of its members have lashed themselves to Trump's ankles, so that when he drowns they drown.

I quit the party four years ago and nothing it has done since has made me doubt my leaving. There's no way I'm coming back either.

Those of you who say I must have voted for Biden, fuck you. You've driven all libertarians, and then conservatives from the party ranks. All that are left are the clowns. And all you can do is tell bad jokes like a bad clown.

[creech]

My GOP county committee friend assures me that Trump will be "yesterday's news" after Jan. 20th. He laughs at any assertion that Trump can be or will be the 2024 nominee.

[Mother's Lament]

"My GOP GOPe county committee friend"

FTFW
Also, you don't have any friends, Jeff. So as with all your previous anecdotes, I'm pretty sure that this one was made up too.

[loveconstitution1789]

Trump cant run again after his second term 2021-2025.

Unreason really thinks the jan 6 joint session of congress is going well for Biden.

EC voting day didnt go well for biden. Trump elector vote slates were sent by New Mexico, NV, AZ, MI, WI, PA, and GA.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

Democrats were fools in 2016 and beyond. They and the media spent four years lying about trump. But you apparently had blinders on to all that.

So you and every leftist can go fuck yourself permanently. You won’t get my cooperation at all.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

It's not even about being "conservative" or "libertarian" anymore. It's just about being sane. If you're a radical anarcho-capitalist who wants to smash the state, fine. If you're a religious conservative who wants to legislate Biblical morality into law, fine. I disagree with both of those, but at least those are defensible positions with defensible arguments. What is very difficult to abide by is just the complete nuttery. The QAnon, "deep state", birtherism, MASSIVE FRAUD, type of nonsense.

[JesseAz]

Youre not a libertarian fuck head. Youre a globalist.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I'm a globalist libertarian.

[Mother's Lament]

How the fuck does that work?

[Nardz]

It's based on the worship of a resurrected Trotsky riding upon a rainbow-colored unicorn.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

See above discussion.

[DesigNate]

So unicorns and rainbow farts?

Jesus, I’m an optimistic motherfucker, but globalist libertarians are as pie in the sky as ancaps and ancoms.

[R Mac]

Ironically, from a purely philosophical perspective, I’m an ancap. But I am also a pragmatist that lives in the real world.

Also ironically, Jeff still hasn’t responded to me calling him out for being ok with slavery in China as long as it doesn’t interfere with his free trade.

[R Mac]

It’s a cute conversation about a fantasy land in your mind.

[damikesc]

Missed the last four years, eh?

[Nancy Kozikowski]

Yes, “beclownment” is the right word. I’ve never heard of a US political party acting like this before.

The Democrats are going to use the Federal Contested Elections Act to steal two house seats that they failed in stealing through fabricated votes even after introducing newly "found" ballots a month and a half after election day.

Oh, and, uh... "hanging chads".

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Well well well, now we know what Jesse's been up to lately.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/12/14/arizona-groups-fake-electors-try-cast-11-electoral-votes-trump/6536056002/

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

Lol.

[loveconstitution1789]

Poor Lefties. Georgia state legislature sent Trump electors to Congress too.

When Biden's election results are tossed, Biden ends up with 0 Electoral votes to Trump's 538 EC votes.

[loveconstitution1789]

Or we just do a 12th Amendment Congressional vote for President.

Either way, Biden better enjoy his few months as "President-Elect". That is as close as he will ever get.

[loveconstitution1789]

Republican Electors in 5 Contested States Cast Conditional Votes for President Trump; GOP Electors in Michigan Blocked

12th Amendment here we come!

[loveconstitution1789]

GA, WI, PA, AZ, NV electoral votes for Trump.

HAHA. Lefties dont even see whats coming.

[Mother's Lament]

So it was a publicity stunt to direct attention to the fraud, but as per Media Matters rules it has to be reinterpreted for the new orthodox.

I imagine if Democrats had done it, Azcentral would've hailed it as high political theatre.

[JesseAz]

Is this where I lost an obese fantasy in his basement with cookies?

[JesseAz]

Post an obese fat ass*

[Ron]

What to say to a political party that keeps trying to overturn the results of an election?"
I don't know why don't you ask the democrats since they've been trying that for four years

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

And then they succeeded by cheating.

Democrats are pond scum.

[loveconstitution1789]

unreason is staffed by Commies who will never admit that their Democrat choice overturned the legal win of Trump.

Trump sent electoral votes and Biden sent electoral votes to Congress for Jan 6. We'll see who wins then.

12th Amendment here we come.

[MollyGodiva]

The Ds tried impeachment, which is expressly allowed for in the constitution, and then tried and succeeded by getting more votes.

[ananimasu]

>>by getting more {fraudulent} votes

Let’s go back to PEN AND PAPER systems, for the love of security.

[John el Galto]

Oh man, Democrats would never win another election!

[loveconstitution1789]

Good thing the national popular cote doesnt make one president.

Joint session of congress jan 6 accepting the Ec votes does.

[Overt]

Hey look Barr just quit. Even if Trump is right about this fraud stuff (and I don't think he is), I don't think he is going to have anyone to support him.

[Nardz]

The establishment appreciates your full endorsement of their integrity, and thanks you for the mandate to do as they please in the future.
You're doing well, comrade overt.

[De Oppresso Liber]

Rats usually desert a sinking ship.

[boyexi5246]

I just got paid $7500 working off my computer this month. And if you think that's cool, my divorced friend has twin toddlers and made over $8k her first month. It feels so good making so much money when other people have to work for so much less. This is what I do... Read More.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

Barr was no “rat” of course and the fact he got democrats like you all spun up and pissing in your panties was fun.

[loveconstitution1789]

The deputy AG is more willing to enforce federal law than Barr was.

The media refuses to cover WHY Trump got rid of certain cabinet members but not others. The media always assumes its because orangemanbad.

Trump needs cabinet members willing to stand up against Lefty lies after the jan 6 joint session of congress does not go well for bIden.

[Tony]

If the media can beat Trump, then why aren't you asking why Trump is so weak?

Why would I want such a weak president?

[Isaac Bartram]

I might be able to be upset about Trump's antics if I had had not been as of this year of our Lord Two Thousand and Twenty upon this earth for threescore and thirteen years. That many years takes us back to the administration of Harry S Truman (the S stood for nothing, apparently his parents just wanted it to be there), the last president that was possible as brash and uncouth as the Donald; although, LBJ is right in there as competition.

Frankly, I see Trump's complaints as a theatrical caricature of the absurd antics of the Democrats over the last four years. It's a great big "FUCK YOU" middle finger to the people who have been spending the last four years questioning his legitimacy; actually they went further than that, they tried to remove him from office.

"Of course I'm going to leave". His exact words. But in the mean time his going to stir up all the shit he can.

As for him conceding, there is no legal or moral requirement for him to do so. Hillary may have mouthed the words but the subsequent four years pretty much show she never actually conceded. Trump owes the Democrats zero courtesy or consideration.

As for me, it's likely a Biden Administration won't really affect me in any negative way - after all Democrats are super kind to old geezers. Neither will a Harris administration (which is likely, sooner rather than later, since Kamala will almost certainly start trying to Twenty-fifth Amendment Sleepy Joe out the minute he's sworn in). I can't speak for anyone else.

[I, Woodchipper]

If you were a young black man you might have bigger fears about a Harris administration lol

[Isaac Bartram]

Ayuh, as my Down East ancestors might have said and as my proper Pennsylvania ancestors might have said, yes.

I am not exactly sure what the modern "Progressive" youth expect form a Harris Administration but I suspect they will be badly disappointed.

Of course it will come as a total surprise to today's "Progressive" youth that yesterday's "Progressives" believed in Eugenics and thought that anyone who didn't think that the white race and western European civilization was superior had to be eliminated.

[Foo_dd]

it might seem more important if Trump's antics hand the Georgia runoffs, that should be easy wins for the GOP, to the dems.... giving them single party control of congress and the white house...... dangerous game being played.

[Isaac Bartram]

You have a point there. If Trump's shit has made the base stay home "because there's 'no hope'" the GOP is in trouble in GA.

Trump's shit plays extremely well with the hard line base but not everyone who voted for Trump belongs to that base.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Reason.com's The GOP's Great Self-Beclownment

FTFY.

[JesseAz]

They can't even admit there is actually something about the China and bidens.

[R Mac]

Probably been told they can’t.

[John el Galto]

They ran it past the Chinese censors and it got rejected.

[loveconstitution1789]

Lefties always project, so why would the Commies who work at unreason be any different.

[Kungpowderfinger]

Isn’t it a little early for Reason to be ramping up against Ted Cruz? Kamala won’t be up for re-election for close to 4 years.

[HamSandwich]

Cruz's cuck energy is enough to prevent him from ever being prez. Even someone as unpopular as harris wont have to try hard to beat a guy who wouldn't stand up for his own fucking wife and father.

[De Oppresso Liber]

To be fair, I hear she is quite plain.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

Tony doesn’t care he fucks men. Or to be more accurate he is the bottom.

[R Mac]

I always assumed the same of DOL. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Except he’s probably a top. All that anger.

[Tony]

Do you think he deepthroated Trump hard enough to overcome his truly unpleasant personality?

[loveconstitution1789]

Unreason doesnt want to admit that biden wont be president and the reason biden wont be president will be because of US senators like Ted Cruz.

The jan 6 joint session of congress to challenge electoral votes only requires the senate to refuse to accept biden electors because of the democrat election fraud. Neither trump nor biden gets 270 EC votes and the president election goes via 12th amendment.

Ted cruz is supportive of this.

[HamSandwich]

Sorry little trump bitches, its over. Your cult daddy is going the way of all his past endeavors...down the toilet.

Turns out the best thing he ever did was "not be Hillary", and he couldnt even build momentum once he was POTUS.

Loser through and through. Will enjoy the history books writing about the BIG CON of 2016 and the rubes who bought it.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

Actually he was well ahead in January 2020. COVID plus scum democrats using it as a wedge issue perpetuating violent riots with their brown shirt blm antifa thugs and of course stuffing and harvesting ballots led to an outcome not predicted at the beginning of the year.

But please now enjoy the fucktard left as they butt fuck you daily. Well you would like it of course. Since you are just another Tony sock account.

[Michael S. Langston]

You obviously haven't read enough history books to be able to correctly predict what a future book will hold.

[loveconstitution1789]

Poor uneeason staffers. The really want to believe Biden will be president.

New Mexico, AZ, NV, GA, PA, MI, WI submitted Trump slate of electoral vote to congress for their joint session jan 6.

[Nardz]

https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1338557477252517888?s=19

News media: Trump colluded with Russia (proven lie), vaccine by year’s end impossible (lie), Hunter Biden is honorable (laugh-out-loud lie), intelligence officials saying Biden China ties are Russian interference (lie). Same people are saying Presidential election wasn’t corrupt.

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[Nardz]

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/signature-match-audit-finally-ordered-georgia-not-where-late-night-ballot-suitcases-made

Exactly 20 days after Georgia Governor Brian Kemp called for (but didn't order) a statewide signature audit in the wake of CCTV footage of Atlanta poll workers producing suspicious ballots from under a table once election monitors had left, Secretary of State Ben Raffensperger has finally ordered a signature match audit - in the next county over.

In a Monday announcement, Raffensperger said that investigators will audit voter signatures on absentee ballot envelopes in Cobb County, a suburb of Atlanta that voted 56.3% for Biden vs. neighboring (Atlanta's) Fulton County at 72.6%.

Which, to state the obvious, begs the question as to why Raffensperger didn't order the audit where the suspicious late-night ballots were caught on tape? And why didn't Raffensperger order a signature match audit sooner?

[R Mac]

What difference, at this point, does it make?

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

Well for one they have a runoff election in Georgia. If they allow this to happen again the governor and sec of state will surely be blamed. So they need to get their act together.

[CE]

a bit late, since the Electoral votes were cast today

[loveconstitution1789]

Cast electoral votes dont equal accepted Ec votes during the joint session of congress jan 6.

Congress can accept Trump electors for Georgia or GA has no electoral cotes for president. If the same thing happens in WI, MI, PA Neither Trump nor Biden get 270 EC votes and we go 12th amendment vote.

The media really believes that Biden will be president. Dec 14 was just one of the dates to determine who is president.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

All of which proves that mail in balloting needs to end. Absentee ballots only for the deployed military.

If we allow this again we better get ready to produce fake ballots in excess of those fake ballots produced by democrats.

I don’t like cheating but I’d rather cheat and beat scumbag democrats.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Absentee ballots only for the deployed military.

Would you permit absentee ballots for registered voters who are physically unable to go to the polls, such as those in nursing homes?

How about for registered non-military voters who are out of the country for months or years at a time?

[Isaac Bartram]

At what point of spending years out of the country does one become an expatriate who while being a citizen eligible to return is no longer a citizen eligible to vote?

Once my parents left the USA neither felt any desire or need to vote. As far as I know, my father never voted in his life and my mother only started voting after she returned to the USA after her absence of over twenty years.

[Schempf]

Congrats reason, you are now as libertarian as the ACLU

[lap83]

Reason: "Really?! Wow, thanks!"

[Nancy Kozikowski]

Lol. But enough about the Democrats using the Federal Contested Elections Act to reverse two congressional elections that went to the Democrat on the basis of ballots that continue to be "found" a month and a half after election day.

Nail-biter New York congressional contest 'may end up in the House,' Pelosi says

[KimberlyMLively]

Yes

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[loveconstitution1789]

They need a 2/3 majority IIRC to do what Pelosi wants, which is ignore election certifications for those congressional districts and pick the winner.

Funny that democrats are screaming bloody murder about trump challenging proven democrat election fraud and unconstitutional changes to election laws but democrats want to ignore popular vote for house seats.

If we only had journalists instead of propagandists that covered mainstream news.

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[KimberlyMLively]

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[loveconstitution1789]

New Mexico joined GA, AZ, NV, PA, MI, WI in sending Trump slate of electors to the jan 6 joint session of congress where elector votes are contested.

[Jose Ortega y Gasset returns]

Those “alternative” electors have no legal status. Pence has no legal authority to approve or reject electors. It’s over. You’ve been wrong over and over. You’re wrong again.

[loveconstitution1789]

Biden sure was mad last night. He knows that he will never be president, must be like how Al gore felt.

[Liberty Lover]

What to say to a political party that keeps trying to overturn the results of an election?
It sucks when you know the truth but can't prove it. Yet people still get away with murder today too.

[Moderation4ever]

The EC has voted and its time to move on. Far too many comments here on the election. Better question is what does the Republican party do from this point onward. Do they try to move on and recommit themselves to some of their long held beliefs or do they remain under the shadow of an individual. If the later its time to move on to a new party and a chance for libertarians to step up.

[Commenter_XY]

Move on, you say?

Yes, it is time to move on to a Special Counsel, or two....to investigate Brain Dead Biden and Hunter the Horndog.

And then we can move on to the confirmation process. I can assure you, everything done to POTUS Trump's nominees will be done to Brain-Dead's nominees. They will receive the same treatment.

And judges? Uh....no. Maybe a few district court judges in blue states, but no Team R senator will return a blue slip.

Finally....Brain-Damaged Biden will be impeached.

Yep...we're moving on.

[Moderation4ever]

There will always be clinger so you will not be alone. As for the rest of the country we are moving on.

[Tony]

Can we have the libertarians without the religious zealots? Where are the numbers? The one libertarian poster boy in Congress turned out to be an authoritarian zombie!

[Jerry B.]

Tl;dr

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[jdgalt1]

There is plenty of evidence. Courts won't bother to look at it, the big media deliberately ignore it, and FacePlantBook and Twatter won't let anybody post about it, so only those who read alt-media know what's going on.

For starters, check out Rudy Giuliani's and Ted Cruz' podcasts.

There is no reason for a magazine called Reason to exist if it's only going to parrot the same views the DNC-run media do and not even look at reliable sources.

[jdgalt1]

Forensic audit of Dominion software in MI produces 56% error rate!
https://gellerreport.com/2020/12/dominion-audit-ballot-error-rate-was-at-least-85000-times-higher-than-fec-allows.html/

Today, Arizona has begun a similar audit.

If the courts don't permit these results to change the election, then the system is hopelessly corrupt and Trump should cross the Rubicon.

[EscherEnigma]

What to say to a political party that keeps trying to overturn the results of an election?

Well, for starters, you call it what it is: a coup attempt.

[DesigNate]

Challenging results through the legal processes is a coup attempt? Of a man who is still just a regular citizen until January 20th? Are you high?

[Tony]

"Challenging results through the legal processes is a coup attempt?"

Yes. To this extent, of course it is. The process is always a "legal" one. Even established dictatorships have sham elections.

And in the process Trump is hamstringing the incoming administration in the performance of its basic duties to citizens, because of a fucking psychotic bitch fit. What are you defending here?

[Jeff Mason]

If someone stole your ‘64 Mustang and then proudly drove it down the street while the people around you said, “It’s his now, get over it,” would you? Somehow I don’t think so. Joe Biden may end up being the Commander in Thief but the election was still stolen.

[Cogs]

What do we say to the Dems?
Every time they cheat and win, they say voter fraud doesn't exist.
Every time they cheat and lose, they claim they were cheated.

[Tony]

There are benefits to being the party that prefers scientific facts to ludicrous conspiracy theories and cosmic fairy tales. It's not necessarily the benefit of winning elections, but at least they're right about stuff.

[ThatSkepticGuy]

“There’s no evidence.”
>
“I have gone out of my way to avoid looking at the evidence.”
>
“I have gone out of my way to avoid looking at the evidence because I don’t want there to be any evidence.”
>
“I don’t want there to be any evidence, because that would completely disrupt my beliefs and force me to take action, and I’d rather remain ignorant, comfortable and smug.”

[jomo]

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/what-i-saw-at-the-jericho-march/?fbclid=IwAR1w_Fas55awdtkSj2K7HSzLJE-Qta4w1Owg0E60uDwIxaqV83a3dHn9CyY

[retiredfire]

The only ones beclowning themselves are those who think this election was free and fair.

[John el Galto]

"Self-Beclownment"

Reason journalists don't know basic fucking English. Shouldn't that just be "beclownment"? How pathetic.

[JesseAz]

Going to court is now unconstitutional. Changing voting laws in direct violation of the electors clause is not.

What don't you get?

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

You know how this goes. Someone could post a list of all of Trump's myriad constitutional violations (emoluments clause, anyone?) and you would pick the most questionable one from the list and claim it's either an exaggeration or not really a violation and that use that to discredit the whole list. Alternatively, you would just attack the source as biased lefty source that is not to be trusted. So, no, I won't bother. I will just continue to entertain myself by ridiculing your moronic cult worship of a failed businessman and reality TV personality that became a failed President.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I have explained what globalism means *from a libertarian perspective*. It does not mean worldwide tyranny. It means the flourishing of human liberty worldwide.

[loveconstitution1789]

They used to call it ComIntern. Communists International.

Use slaves to work for companies owned by the state.

[JesseAz]

You have explained what straight retardation is. Nothing you said is valid.

[Enlightened Atheist]

Chemjeff-
why are you so desperate to gain approval from libertarians? I’m sorry but these guys are a joke... They have some good ideas, but on the whole, they're way behind the 8 ball.
I know what globalism is and globalism is good no matter what the libertarians say. Don't let them effect your opinion and taint your mind. Also you should respond to my other posts in the other threads, idk why you're avoiding me.
Thanks.

[Yehuda]

"What to say to a political party that keeps trying to overturn the results of an election?"

"Shut the fuck up, Hillary lost"

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[loveconstitution1789]

We have been saying "Shut the fuck up" to Stacey Abrams since 2018 when she lost to Georgia Governor Brian Kemp.

[Jerry B.]

And not to forget Bush v. Gore in 2000. So the Democrats are ahead 2 to 1.

[Overt]

The constitution grants legislative authority to congress. And yet it is perfectly constitutional (as has been upheld numerous times in court) for the legislature to empower a part of the executive branch to add the meat to legislative bones through regulation.

The same is true for election law. The constitution is still satisfied if the legislature says something like "The office of the elector shall provide voting locations in enough capacity for reasonable voting wait times." They don't have to specify the locations in the law- just provide the framework by which that will be done. And the executive branch is equally allowed to make changes to those locations, so long as they are complying with the law.

[loveconstitution1789]

Your citations fell off.

WI Supreme determined that ~215,000 "indefinitely confined" ballots were illegal but counted toward the certification.

That blows your incorrect assessment that Executive officials can change rules without State legislature permission as it relates to election laws.

[JesseAz]

You could point out how the court settlement to overturn newly elected laws in GA was legislative defferal... You'd be wrong. But I challenge you.

[JesseAz]

I mean fuck, the Ohio legislature literally was the defense against the governor in a lawsuit in that state that changed the law judicially.

[loveconstitution1789]

There are two PA election cases linked as pending in the SCOTUS.

The WI Supreme Court case of ~215,000 "indefinitely confined" illegal ballots was decided but the remedy to throw out those ballots was denied. This is ripe for SCOTUS review and let the SCOTUS throw out the ballots and decertify the results for Biden.

[loveconstitution1789]

Trump's second term is gonna be glorious. You Lefties went insane the last 4 years. You folks are crazy cases the rest of your lives.

[R Mac]

Jeff doesn’t care about slavery in other countries, especially China, as long as he doesn’t have to pay a tariff on what they make.

[MollyGodiva]

And how will he have a second term since he lost?

[JesseAz]

Technically the remedy was individualized per the order. They'd have to sue every citizen.

[Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------]

It's gonna take place in lovecon89's bedroom. He already bought all the figurines to play it out. He just has to convert his sister's dollhouse into the White House.

[loveconstitution1789]

Trump won the legal vote count in states that matter for a plurality.
Trump wins the EC vote majority on jan 6, 2021.
Trump wins the 12th amendment vote in Congress.

Democrats cannot work well inside the framework of the constitution.

[Michael S. Langston]

You're both stupid and an ass kisser. But that was funny, even if you didn't intend for it to be.

[Enlightened Atheist]

My IQ is 159 and climbing, aka double your IQ. Stupid? Yea, not so much.
Nice try, troll. You're outclassed, outsmarted, and outmaneuvered, which I’m sure you're used to at this point.
As for being a "posterior"-kisser, I’m not sure where you got that idea but it's quite an imaginative idea for someone of your, err, caliber!

[MollyGodiva]

Oh I love that comment. Also true.

[loveconstitution1789]

Poor unreason. Your tears during trumps second term in the actual white house are gloriously building and building.

I bet the commies at unreason never discuss that even New Mexico sent a slate of Trump electoral votes to congress for jan 6.

[R Mac]

Needs more “checkmate”s.

[loveconstitution1789]

We Georgians got our Secretary of state Raffensperger to signature audit Cobb County, Georgia absentee ballots after proving that election laws were not followed.

Good thing GA, PA, MI, WI! NV, AZ and New Mexico submitted Trump slate of electors for review Jan 6 before a joint session of congress.

[Moo Cow]

^ The head clown of all the clowns in the circus. Glad to see you still vomiting up inane comments here at "Reason."

[loveconstitution1789]

Its the fact that the highest court in WI determined those “Indefinitely confined” ballots to be a problem. Then by not doing anything, the WI supreme gave a perfect WI election case to the SCOTUS to toss ballots.

The SCOTUS can do almost whatever they want to resolve a dispute but its politically advantageous to have others do the fact finding for the SCoTUS.

[loveconstitution1789]

Georgia state law requires signature checks on absentee ballots. Election officials not checking signatures is a night-day change and a violation of the constitutional powers clauses.

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