Coronavirus

The COVID-19 Vaccine Did Not Kill Your Grandmother

Some scientists offer an important reminder about cause and effect.

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The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's (CDC) Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) voted last week to recommend that the first doses of a coronavirus vaccine be given to an estimated 21 million health-care workers and 3 million residents and staff of nursing homes and other long-term-care facilities. Protecting health care workers makes sense since we want to make sure that our hospitals and physicians' offices remain adequately staffed as the winter surge of COVID-19 infections and hospitalizations rises.

In addition, the CDC ACIP panel voted to prioritize the vaccination of long-term care residents because their risk of serious medical complications and death from the coronavirus infections is vastly higher than it is for younger Americans. However, one panel member, Vanderbilt University infectious disease researcher Helen Keipp Talbot, dissented from that decision. Why?

At an earlier ACIP meeting, Talbot warned, "There is such a high mortality rate in long-term-care facilities. There will be a number of patients who receive immunizations for Covid and will pass away. And it will be regardless of the vaccine." As a result of nursing home deaths that just happen to occur shortly after a resident has been vaccinated, Talbot fears, "we're going to have a very striking backlash of 'my grandmother got the vaccine and she passed away,' and they're not likely to be related, but that will become remembered and break some of the confidence in the vaccine."

Talbot pointed out that no randomized controlled trials have been conducted among nursing home residents. However, when she was asked by the biomedical newsletter STAT if she had higher safety concerns about the vaccines for that population she responded, "Any more than anyone else? No. But I think what we have for the adult population in general is a randomized control trial to look at the safety data."

In fact, the just-released Food and Drug Administration staff analysis of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine that is likely to be issued an Emergency Use Authorization soon finds that it is essentially equally effective at preventing COVID-19 infections for all age groups, including age cohorts 65 to 74 years and 75 years and over.

Still, Talbot is right to warn against the likely spate of anguished news stories, Facebook posts, and tweets recklessly asserting the adventitious deaths of older relatives were triggered by the COVID-19 vaccines they had just received. Basically, Talbot is cautioning people not to commit the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, which means, after this, therefore because of this. In other words, the fallacy goes, Granny died after she got vaccinated, therefore the vaccine killed her.

"I fear a loss of confidence in the vaccine," Talbot told STAT. "That the vaccine will actually truly be safe, but there will be temporally associated events and people will be scared to use the vaccine. And we won't be able to get our kids back in school and people back at work—the things that are important."

Here's a message that everybody needs to hear: Don't let fallacious reasoning prevent you from being vaccinated in the coming weeks and months to protect your family, your neighbors, and yourself from the COVID-19 virus.

NEXT: Biden Should Strive To Be Better Than Both Trump and Obama on Central America

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  1. Keeping ’cause and effect’ in mind, it’s also possible COVID didn’t kill your grandmother, either.

    1. That’s what I came here to say. This is always a good thing to keep in mind. It’s too bad most people seem to have forgotten about it for the past 9 months or so.

      1. It’s not like it’s a secret that the numbers are bogus. A few months ago in the car I turned on the radio and NPR was having a Q&A with the state’s head of the CDC. He openly admitted that anyone who died and tested positive, regardless of the actual cause of death, was counted as a COVID death. His excuse was that because people die at home or whatever without being tested, that his inflation of the numbers wasn’t inflating it enough. Yeah, right. But people seem to eat it up. Hook, line and sinker.

        1. And yet in this very thread you’re calling people conspiracy theorists for mistrusting government data.

          1. You know what? Why don’t you just ignore my posts. You obviously lack the intelligence, sense of humor, or whatever to tell when I’m serious and when I’m not. Let me have conversations with the adults. You can sit in the corner and watch. You might learn something.

            1. Right. Because when you wrote this:

              Oh come on! The pandemic is a hoax to get us all to conform and take the “vaccine” which is a plot by the lizard people to put nanobots into everyone so they can control our minds!! Aaaauugghh!!!

              You weren’t using sarcasm to mock people who mistrust the government and make fun of people who refuse to take the vaccine.

              You were in a quantum state of sarcasm, as always.

              1. You got me. I was making fun of fans of Alex Jones and Coast to Coast. You accuse me of being a drunken pedophile who has sex with his own child. I think that makes me kinda funny and you an unforgivable piece of shit.

                1. I quit working at shop rite and now I make $65-85 per/h. How? I’m working online! My work did not exactly make me happy so I decided to take a chance on something new… after 4 years it was so hard to quit my day job but now I couldn’t be happier. Here’s what I do… USA ONLINE JOBS

            2. Amusingly the adults think you lack the intelligence to talk with them. So why not just STFU?

          2. I’m almost 70. Government’s been lying to me my entire life. I don’t believe ANY government data, especially if it comes from an “expert”.

        2. Remember lying is okay if it’s to cover up your incompetancy

        3. A few months ago in the car I turned on the radio and NPR

          I identified the problem.

          But in seriousness, yes, this is a major scandal that almost no one is reporting on. The State of Washington recently removed a tiny # of people on the death-from-covid list because they tested positive while dying. It just so happened their deaths were murder, suicide, car accident etc. The state, as best as I can tell, has not yet gone back to do a deeper dive into the natural deaths where covid was correlated with a positive test. I’m going to be conservative and suggest that you could probably remove 20-30% of those deaths after some deeper investigation.

          1. How is 20% to 30% conservative? Did you pulled that % out of your ass or do you have data to back that up as being anywhere in the ballpark? Anecdotes are not evidence of frequency.

            1. Your reading comprehension needs work. My number was an estimate. But… knowing what we know, that the state IS IN FACT putting anyone who dies and tests positive for COVID-19 (which led to suicides and car accidents being included on the list) I can guarantee the # of people on the current list who died BECAUSE of COVID who could be removed from the list is going to be well more than 0%. Unless you actually believe that 100% of the remaining #’s are scientifically attributable to Death By Covid.

            2. But since you asked, here’s a NCBI study of case mortality overestimation as it relates to COVID.

              Some… rather shocking nuggets:

              Almost as a parenthetical afterthought, the NEJM editorial inaccurately stated that 0.1% is the approximate case fatality rate of seasonal influenza. By contrast, the World Health Organization (WHO) reported that 0.1% or lower is the approximate influenza infection fatality rate,5 not the case fatality rate. To fully appreciate the significance of discrepancies in fatality rate usage by NIAID, the CDC, and the WHO, brief definitions of relevant epidemiological terms follow.

              […]

              In a comparative analysis with WHO and CDC documents, the coronavirus mortality rate of 2-3% that was adjusted to 1% in Congressional testimony is consistent with the coronavirus CFR of 1.8-3.4% (median, 2.6%) reported by the CDC.13 Furthermore, the WHO reported that the CFR of the H1N1 influenza virus (1918) is also 2-3%,14 similar to the unadjusted 2-3% CFR of the coronavirus reported in Congressional testimony, with no meaningful difference in mortality. As previously mentioned, the WHO also reported that 0.1% is the IFR of seasonal influenza,5 not the CFR of seasonal influenza as reported in the NEJM editorial.

              Confusion between CFRs and IFRs may seem trivial, and it is easy to overlook at first, but this confusion may have ultimately led to an unintentional miscalculation in coronavirus mortality estimation. IFRs from samples across the population include undiagnosed, asymptomatic, and mild infections, and are often lower compared with CFRs, which are based exclusively on relatively smaller groups of moderately to severely ill diagnosed cases at the beginning of an outbreak. Due to host defense mechanisms and autoimmunity provided by innate and adaptive immune responses,15 asymptomatic infections are often prevalent in influenza.16 With many asymptomatic infections already identified in COVID-19,17 it appears unlikely that the IFR in an ILI like COVID-19 would approximate the disease’s CFR.

              Shorter: You begin to see how even disagreements about terms can lead you to wildly different scientifically estimated results.

              If you think every local health department that’s sending data up to the CDC and WHO are 100% solid on the reporting of deaths from COVID019, you’re sorely… and sadly mistaken.

              1. Lordy. Yes, science is hard. I would not think it to be likely that daily mortality reports are exactly accurate. That being said, it is clear that COVID is killing a significant number of people, that a significant number of people who get it and recover have significant long term problems, and that it is highly contagious and there are people who do not appear sick who can spread it.

                When it comes to counts, there are error bars that run both ways that people try to account for.

                I understand the logic that individual counties may have an incentive to err towards reporting higher numbers if it is tied to relief funding.

                What doesn’t make any sense is this seeming attitude that the government at large has some interest in exaggerating the severity of the crisis. How does this benefit the state or federal governments? They are losing tax revenue and having to bleed money. What is the motivation?

                In terms of the conspiracy theorists, i could imagine they think it’s all a scam to make pharmaceutical companies money. But the companies producing and distributing these vaccines aren’t going to making money like they normally do.

                There was the trump crowd claiming it was being exagerrated to make trump look bad. But the election’s over.

                Unless you’re deep in tinfoil hat land like the Florida megachurch pastor who thinks vaccines will alter your dna and are part of a satanic plot, the idea that the whole thing is some massive co-ordinated conspiracy just doesn’t make sense.

            3. Seemed like a reasonable, maybe even conservative estimate.

          2. There was a story on NPR about John Glenn’s widow dying as a highlight of those who had succumbed to the Pandemic. They recounted Glenn’s exploits and his widow’s contributions. The final sentence, Annie Glenn died of complications from Covid 19 – she was 102.

            1. Un fucking real.
              102???
              Anyone over 85 has lived the best possible life humanity has to offer. Vaccinate them first, and we can sort out the details later.

          3. Far as I know, ND is the only state that separates “of” and “with”, and about 15% are “with”.

            The vast majority of remaining 85% are pretty “typical” deaths.

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    3. This. They’d have an easier time making this argument if they hadn’t been scare mongering so hard.

    4. I’m 99% certain that Wuhanvirus didn’t kill anyone’s grandmother.

      1. I’m 100% certain that you are a functional idiot.

        1. That would be a huge step up from being a dysfunctional alcoholic welfare case who fucks his own kids.

          1. Now do one with “broken” or “leftist” or “anarchist”!

            1. Now cry like a little bitch about how you’re picked on by “mean girls” you fucking drunken pedophile.

              1. Whatever Tulpa.

                1. Still not Tulpa, but keep fucking your daughter.

                  1. You’re sick.

                    1. I’m not the one who fucks his own daughter in alcoholic stupor.

            2. You are finally self selecting your own adjectives. Good work buddy.

              1. Just heading you off at the pass, mean girl.

                1. There we go! Now we get the poor persecuted funny man.

          2. I love the taxi reference

        2. You talking to yourself in the mirror again shreek.

          1. Your what hurts?

      2. I’m 99% certain that Wuhanvirus didn’t kill anyone’s grandmother.

        Spanish flu killed some 675,000 people. Even if COVID kills 3X as many people, thanks to reproduction, the odds are still greater that the Spanish Flu killed someone’s grandma.

      3. Times ticking right wing fanatic. I thought Trump was for sure getting elected?

    5. I will need to exhume. Both have been dead for over 40 years, but you don’t know until they’ve been tested.

      1. They’re still voting straight-ticket Democrat, so there IS the possibility.

        1. Whoever would have imagined that the afterlife had so many Biden voters.

          1. The dead only worry about decay, necrophiliacs and mean tweets.

    6. Well, considering both of my grandmothers have been dead for at least 10 years…

      1. Sorry to hear that.
        Covid?

    7. yeah, the quote is right there in the story:

      “There is such a high mortality rate in long-term-care facilities. There will be a number of patients [have X happen to them] and will pass away. And it will be regardless of [X happening to them].”

    8. The Centers for Disease Control Protecting health care workers makes sense since we want to make sure that our hospitals and physicians’ offices remain adequately staffed as the winter surge of COVID-19 infections and hospitalizations rises………….. VISIT HERE FOR FULL DETAIL.

    9. #metoo, if that isn’t inappropriate. They’ve been using that fallacy to drum up panic about Covid all along, but NOW they want to warn against the fallacy?

      She’s right, but there’s also a huge dose of hypocrisy in any such concern. How is her (assuredly predictive) hypothetical anecdote any different from “This person caught covid and now they’re dead. They died from a heroin overdose, but put them in the covid pile, because REEEE!”?

    10. C’mon man! COVID is the *only * thing that kills people anymore. If people wore their masks, no one would ever die!

  2. This will certainly be important to keep in mind when the rate of deaths from the vaccine exceeds by orders of magnitude the rate of deaths from the fucking virus, as it did for H1N1. Just lie back and think of Pfizer’s quarterly numbers, comrades.

    1. H1N1 vaccine no way killed more than H1N1. Let’s see your data. Just because shit comes out of your mouth does shit true.

      The CDC estimates 12,469 deaths form H1N1 in the US for 2009/2010 season. Since you said “orders of magnitude”, you are thus claiming at least 1,246,900 deaths from the vaccine. OVER A MILLIONS DEATH IN ONE YEAR FROM A VACCINE!

      That’s your claim. Back it up or shut the fuck up.

      1. As a general rule, when someone says “orders of magnitude” you can safely assume that they don’t know what it means. Unless they’re a physicist or an astronomer or something.

        1. I safely assume you don’t know what it means.

          1. I safely assume that to you log means wood or turd, and nothing else.

            1. lol. Sarcasmic thinks something most people learn before calculus as being advanced math and not well known.

              1. Well, that’s one way to interpret what he said. Or it’s because someone said something ridiculous about orders of magnitude.

            2. Something to do with dancing?

              I’ve heard of that “log rhythm”, so some kind of male twerking, right?

        2. Or maybe it’s hyperbole. You know, the same excuse you use when you blatantly lie 50 times a day and then say you have no culpability for it because you were j/k?

          1. It’s not my fault that you’re too stupid or dishonest to see that a guy who calls himself “sarcasmic” isn’t serious all the time.

            1. John Stewart ran that shtick a lot better than you do because he was actually occasionally funny. And also not an alcoholic pedophile.

              1. He was a paid professional. I sure hope he did it better.

            2. Contemptful would be more accurate.

      2. Neil Ferguson showed me a model demonstrating the vaccine caused 1,246,900 deaths.

        There, that was good enough to get you on board with shutting down the economy for 12 months, surely it’s good enough to win an internet argument.

        1. First, point me to that model.

          Second, a model is not data. Show me the data.

          I think you’re grossly misinterpreting the model, and are otherwise confused. The idea that a vaccine kills more than the virus it inoculates against is ridiculous. Extraordinary claims require proofs.

          1. There have been some coronavirus vaccine attempts (not for the current SARS one) that killed more than they saved. But I think they were just testing on cats at that point.

          2. There are more cases of polio induced by the vaccine than cases in the wild. This is just one of several viruses where the “cure” is in fact more dangerous. Swine Flu vax fiasco of ’76 is another example and SV40 contamination of original polio vax, which might explain why cancer is epidemic. Auto-immune epidemic correlates to MMR. The killing doesn’t happen immediately but over decades while extracting folk’s money and ability to live their most productive life.

  3. Oh come on! The pandemic is a hoax to get us all to conform and take the “vaccine” which is a plot by the lizard people to put nanobots into everyone so they can control our minds!! Aaaauugghh!!!

    1. Sarc, I’d gladly take the vaccine whatever the outcome to get the doom and gloomers to shut up.

      1. Bad news: they will never shut up,

      2. I’m hesitant. Mostly because I’m a big pussy when needles are involved, but also because I’m not in a risky demographic.

        1. I you’re just a big pussy period.

          1. If you’re going to spew out childish taunts, you can at least combine pussy and period to make it even more juvenile. Jeez. You can’t even insult me correctly. What a loser.

            1. LOL…. thank you for this.

        2. Aww c’mon Sarc.

          “Is that a picture of your honey?” “You married?”

          (Pulls up sleeve)

          “Any kids?”

          See it’s all over. Good job soldier.

    2. Yeah what kind of conspiracy theorist nutcase would suspect the government that brought you the Tuskegee syphilis study, the Stateville penitentiary malaria study, Operation Sea Spray, Operation Big Buzz, the Willowbrook State School hepatitis study, and the CDC measles vaccine study on minority children in Los Angeles would have anything but your best interests in mind? Do what you’re told! Cower in your home like a pathetic pussy! Submit! Obey! FREE MINDS AND FREE MARKETS BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      1. That’s all ancient history

        The modern day Mengeles have learned how to cover their tracks better

      2. Sarcasmic said he now has trust in government institutions just yesterday. Biden winning really changed him. He is now a government sycophant.

        And no, I won’t take the vaccine. Because I’m not in an at risk cohort so the vaccine will do little to more than likely nothing.

    3. You laugh, but I see memes saying essentially this on Facebook every day. No matter how wacky you think you’re made up sarcasm is, there are people out there who not only fervently believe it, but also vote.

      1. Yeah… I don’t do Facebook, Twitter or any of that shit. I prefer blissful ignorance.

        1. If you prefer ignorance then you would be exclusively on Twitter and facebook

        2. I am on Facebook just for the pics of kittens and grandkids. I never touched twitter in my life, never will. It’s like plutonium, I don’t have to drink it to know it’s not good.

      2. Lol, yeah, look at these lunatic niggers who think the government is deliberately letting them die of syphilis! Hahahahahahahahaha, can you imagine?

  4. Why was this sort of logic not applied to the virus itself?

    1. Agree, Don’t. see below.

  5. Why is it now we want to talk about a high mortality rate no matter what in long term healthcare facilities? Wouldn’t that same statement have been true when COVID appeared? This – post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy – isn’t that a lot of current covid but now is being used to protect deaths?

  6. Natural herd immunity is likely to occur in many counties and states before vaccines are made available to the masses, and I suspect Bailey will be urging everyone who has recovered from covid to take vaccines (because Big Pharma needs to pay higher dividends to shareholders).

    1. “I recovered from the flu last year. Do I need to get a flu shot this year?”

      1. So your contention is that Covid 19 will have mutated sufficiently that the natural antibodies acquired from infection will become ineffective, but the vaccine will still work? Maybe you should stop injecting things for a little while…

        1. It has already mutated. At least four strains of COVID have been isolated. They have not been shown to cause more sickness at this point but one of them 614g causes higher viral loads in the upper respiratory tract and thus spreads faster.

          There is no reason to think it will not keep mutating. To what end nobody can predict.
          https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201113/study-new-coronavirus-mutation-accelerates-spread

          1. Would that not also potentially make the vaccine ineffective over time?

            1. Anything is possible in nature Zeb.

              Molecular biology and immunology. It would be nice if we had someone here to explain it better than I could.

              After the clinical trials they are rushing to produce. This is still an experiment especially with the new mRNA vaccines. I would take one. Someone I know was part of the trial.

            2. Depends on the vaccine. The mRNA vaccines target the spike protein that’s common to all the covid varieties.

              The traditional style vaccines that are being tested now are geared towards the virus itself, not just a part, so it may not work as well for other strains. Just like the flu vaccine.

          2. Toward the “end”‘ of becoming less virulent, towards the generally universal “goal” of surviving and spreading. All these new viruses wannabe nasopharyngitis.

    2. I don’t think we know enough about natural immunity following an infection to want to chance not getting the vaccine. With effectiveness better than 90% for the vaccine it make sense to not take the chance on natural immunity.

      1. With effectiveness better than 90% for the vaccine it make sense to not take the chance on natural immunity.

        With a fatality rate of .001% it makes sense to not bother worrying about the virus one way or the other.

        1. .001%? Even if you meant to exclude the % we’re still on track to surpass that before flu season really kicks into gear.

          But while, the “of COVID vs. w/ COVID” argument has a point, but it’s not nearly so big a difference. 80%+ of the people being hospitalized for COVID are there because of COVID. Deaths would logically be similar.

          1. I saw a medical (ish) article claiming studies show a general 30/70% split in “with” vs “caused by” wrt deaths related to covid.

            And yes, I did tell my kids that a warning klaxon should sound whenever a factual claim is attributed to “studies show”. But that was for newspapers, not me.

          2. This flu season got cancelled dipshit – Covid only season. Just like the end of last season.

            On a side note, who wants to start a mask company? Looks like they’re here to stay.

      2. Why assume that the vaccine would last longer than natural immunity?

        1. There is no such assumption. Nobody knows the answer. Nobody knows how long natural immunity lasts either.

          1. At least 8 months. Had it in March. Routinely wear my masks inside out and have never washed them. I’m about as careless as you can get because I want to see if I can get it twice. Hoping the second time will be a charm so I can leave the kids some money before the government takes it all.

    3. at the current rate, it would take about 6-7yrs….. which is likely longer than immunity will last when you do catch it….. you might not want to hear it, but herd immunity will need either a vaccine or much higher infection rates that will result in significant deaths as healthcare capacity is exceeded.

      1. Herd immunity is already working in many places. Look at NY. Tons of “cases”, but not much in terms of death: https://covidusa.net/?state=New+York. In the spring there was a real bump in the death curve. Now its hardly anything. And positive test rate has been falling since the beginning of November. Same for New Jersey and other states that were hit hard early.

        1. And it’s even more stark if you separate out NYC from the rest of the state.

        2. the death rate drop is not due to herd immunity, it is because we have much better treatments available now. Herd immunity is a fairly well understood concept… and we are less that 1/7th of the way there….. in the hardest hit areas, we are, at most, 1/5 of the way there. quit pretending you have any clue WTF you are talking about.

          1. The death rate drop is because they killed off the most susceptible, which is, the population that has a 15% death rate as opposed to the cohorts that have a 0.15% rate (or lower).

            I hope you’re not saying there HASN’T been a huge concerted alarmist effort wrt Covid. California has not a single case of childhood fatality and only 7 cases (last I looked) in the 0-17 age range. And oh yeah, “Young lives lost boo-hoo, we must cower!”, but that death rate can be compared to that from wine cooler poisoning, drowning in tubs, automobile accidents related to Twitter and lightning strikes.

            1. Bullshit.

              Herd immunity already occurred in the much-maligned religious enclaves in NY and NJ, which haven’t had more than a handful of new covid cases in six months and zero new deaths caused by covid.

    4. Natural herd immunity to COVID.

      Well as soon as you see convincing evidence of that let me know.

      1. See my comment just above.

        1. And to what do you attribute the plateau in cases and falling death rates?

          1. I would speculate that it is because many people have been exposed and have at least some level of immunity.

            1. The other factor we did not talk about is human behavior. Those states have some of the strictest lockdown measures. Also most people have now learned to take precautions and do. We may hate some of those. I do too.

              The number of tests is not a constant. So positive rates are subject to many variables.

              There is a lot of uncertainty in all of this.

              As the Queen said in WW2 “keep calm and carry on”.

              1. I have a certainty for you though:
                The incidence of infection is waaaay higher than the “tested w/ infection rate”.

                Another certainty, though one you may dispute:
                Covid has been the subject of fear-mongering, hysterical overreaction and political opportunism.

                As with any ‘crisis”, one of the worst effects is the jump scare reveal of human nature.

            2. “I would speculate…..”

              there is your problem….. you are pulling all of this shit out of your ass….

        2. It is not that. At first the availability of testing and other ways to diagnose COVID pneumonia was low. Nobody knew how to treat it. Nobody really knew what it was. There were few tests available.

          That has changed we know much more now.

          There is a much more clear pattern. +COVID test by PCR. Normal to near normal WBC count, high C-reactive protein, a known constellation of clinical symptoms, mild to no fever, chest X-ray and CT pattern typically going from normal to ground glass infiltrates mostly peripheral with no lymphadenopathy or pleural effusion. Decreasing O2 sats and increasing respiratory distress.

          That is just some of the diagnostics.

          In treatment the biggest advance is in how to handle the sickest patients. Avoid high pressure ventilation as much as possible. Use O2 and CPAP. Prone positioning. High dose steroids and Remdesivir along with other supportive measures. Watch for known complications including renal, vascular, cardiac, pulmonary emboli, superimposed bacterial pneumonia, sepsis, and others.

          It is not herd immunity. The number of cases and hospitalizations is increasing. What you are going to see is hospitalizations start to decrease as triage starts to happen due to limiting resources.

          Heroic efforts are being made in the clinical and scientific fronts. This is happening around the world. These people are not trying to fool anyone. It is very real.

          All I can say is I have never seen anything quite like this.

    5. One of the first doctors in England to get the vaccine has already had COVID and recovered.

  7. The COVID-19 Vaccine Did Not Kill Your Grandmother

    It was Governor Cuomo.

    1. Pretty much this.

  8. Whatever take it don’t take it who gives a shit. Fucking stop talking about a disease that kills almost no one who gets it. You literally have the worst administration coming into power in January and you’re talking about vaccinations.

    1. No, sorry, that argument only worked with Trump.

  9. While the ‘vaccine killed my grandma’ narrative is likely to be repeated often enough, it’s probably going to be more common to hear the ‘vaccine made me sick / gave me covid’ schtick.

    Just like you hear just about every year about influenza vaccines, when people mistake the immune response caused by the vaccine for the actual symptoms caused by the virus. It’s perhaps a forgivable mistake, but it fosters misconception.

    1. If the immune response is so bad you can’t tell the difference between it and the flu, then saving the vaccine gave me the flue is good shorthand for it left me worse off than if I hadn’t taken it.

      1. At least with the flu there is always the counterfactual that you might have had much worse symptoms if you actually got infected with the virus. Most people who get Covid never even display symptoms.

        1. If the testing protocol for flu was the same as what’s being done for Covid I suspect there’d be a lot of people who would test positive for flu but never show any signs or symptoms because their immune system kicked its ass before it became a full blown knock you on the ass flu.

      2. Yeah, it is pretty disgusting to suggest forcing a vaccine on people that is in most cases likely to cause worse symptoms than the virus. Not that I think forcing a vaccine on people is ever OK.

    2. I haven’t taken a flu shot in years. Maybe I should. However, my personal experience is that the 3 years in a row that I did get the flu shot, I was sick enough to miss work and want nothing but to lay in bed for two weeks. Every other winter that I didn’t have something else like strep (not since I was about 10), I’ve missed 1 or 2 days of work each winter for feeling kinda crappy.

      Yep, I didn’t have the flu, but the immune response I had about a week after the vaccine was pretty terrible. So I’ve happily passed since.

      1. I always get a flu shot and have never once reacted. Go about the rest of my year blissfully flu free.
        But whenever my sister gets it, you may as well have given her a shot of the virulent virus instead. Knocks her on her ass as bad as the real thing.

        I wonder why the difference.

        1. And I’ve never had a flu shot and never had the flu bad enough to notice. It’s almost like people are different and should make choices about what medications they receive based on their own circumstances and history.

        2. Never had the flu shot. My wife got it one year and it gave her pneumonia. I think some people’s immunities are in place already so introducing a different strain actually sets off a deeper response, or some people have a higher sensitivity to anything foreign and the body responds harshly. I think this is also a sign their immunity system is strong as is.
          All conjecture and anecdotal.

          1. or some people have a higher sensitivity to anything foreign and the body responds harshly

            You may be on to something here. I hardly react to medication and always end up being prescribed the max amount, while my aforementioned sister can barely handle a Tylenol.

        3. Mother

          Back in the day we had a nurse in the department. She would come down the hall with a cart and a pocket full of doses. A clipboard with a paper you signed. There was no choice in the matter. You did not dare argue with her.

          You rolled up your sleeve. She put a little band aid on it and that was it. I always asked her for one to take home because my wife was a teacher.

          People are more fussy these days.

        4. Because flu shots are about 50% effective. You may catch a different strain than the one the shot was for.

    3. I’ve had one flu shot in my life. Worst flu ever after that. Not mistaking it for an immune response, or the two other times I had the flu.

      1. It is impossible to get influenza from a flu vaccine. It doesn’t contain a live virus. You’re an idiot

  10. Don’t let fallacious reasoning prevent you from being vaccinated in the coming weeks and months to protect your family, your neighbors, and yourself from the COVID-19 virus.

    RONALD BAILEY is science correspondent at Reason.

    When the Science! guy at a site called Reason feels compelled to point out something so glaringly obvious to anyone with a basic understanding of history, I start asking myself, why?

    Something nefarious is preferential to the idea he thinks his readers are that ignorant.

    Maybe he thinks that if we submit before we are forced that is somehow more libertarian?

    1. there are people who don’t see how a respiratory disease can be slowed in any way by covering your breathing holes……. there are people that stupid.

      1. How does it make sense and old t shirt across your face will save you from the deadliest disease in 100 years?

        1. see… there is one right there.

          1. I’m one. so was the CDC for forty. seven. years’. worth. of. studies.

      2. there are people that stupid

        Yes, there are actually people who don’t understand that your eye-holes drain into your nose-holes. And that this particular respiratory disease has been scientifically demonstrated to take root in your nose-holes, so a covered mouth-hole doesn’t prevent infection at all and has little effect on transmission because pretty much everyone touches their face all the time and the virus gets transferred from masks to surfaces and objects which others touch and then touch their eyes and nose.

        There are people that are so stupid that they don’t understand that the original recommendations to wash your hands and not touch your face were, scientifically, the best recommendations based on over 50 years of science that demonstrated masks (intended to prevent bacterial transfer) are not effective against viruses. Mask wearing is actually pretty unhealthy.

        But then again, wearing the mask is really about training the populace to submit to Science!tific authority, isn’t it Imam?

        There is no God but Science! and Fauci is his prophet!

        1. common sense just ain’t so common anymore…… now we have fucktards who will weave convoluted BS to pretend what a third grader could figure out is wrong. are you really too stupid to recognize that even your BS included mentioning that the nose is a primary vector as you concluded that covering your nose makes no difference? (because eyes are connected to the nose… therefore BS, BS, i don’t want to accept reality.)

    2. Based on the conspiracy theory nuts posting here everyday, I’d say he’d be right about much of the audience.

  11. Wait, I thought the vaccine wasn’t available yet. Who’s claiming that his grandmother was killed by the wuflu vaccine?

  12. Talbot is cautioning people not to commit the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy

    If only we had a nationwide network of learning centers where we could send kids to teach them about the dangers of being subject to logic fallacies and experts with inflated credentials who hide behind them.

  13. post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy

    Also, somebody needs to explain to the good doctor research scientist that you can’t just declare a post hoc fallacy apriori and/or without evidence. Otherwise, every person who just happened to die when standing in front of a gun that just happened to go off wasn’t a homicide. Like when the police do it.

    If you give someone a COVID vaccine and they die, it’s possible they were killed by the vaccine. If you give someone a COVID vaccine and they still die of COVID, someone should still be in charge of cramming your post hoc fallacy bullshit up your ass sideways.

    1. Yup.

    2. If I understand what you are saying.

      I can put it another way.

      Philosophy and logical fallacies. Applying them to a virus is ridiculous.

      This is biology not engineering or law.

      What is happening in response to the disease is more empirical than anything. You try to find what works and what does not.

      People, bless their hearts, are most often not logical as Captain Spock pointed out.

      “May I say that I have not thoroughly enjoyed serving with Humans? I find their illogic and foolish emotions a constant irritant.”

      1. And “empirical” here means “based on observed evidence”, and not “exactly A or B”.

        An even more common fallacy, when dealing with biology and medicine, is “binary fallacy”. As when you get a treatment that works w/ a 90% efficacy and someone’s relative falls into the remaining 10% and we hear “I thought you said this worked!!! Doctors LIED TO ME!!!”

        Nothing in biology is so simple. Except maybe the dead/not dead dichotomy and even there people wanna talk about zombies and vampires.

        1. We are sick of your jawing, trollificus.

  14. Her logic can be applied to any medical intervention and happens all the time. If we applied it we would not do anything for grandma.

    It is not just that. People have a natural tendency to ascribe a cause to something when it may be entirely random.

  15. while i understand the concern here, and know this actually will happen with some people….. i do not see how anyone on an advisory committee could seriously use this as a reason to vote against releasing the vaccine for those most at risk from the virus. if you are a doctor, you believe it is safe, and you know those people should be vaccinated….. what people might say on Facebook should be the last thing on your mind, not a reason to reject the whole thing. the people who are likely to spread this kind of false information are going to do so no matter what you do…… they will find something else. and if they don’t, they will make something up and put it in a meme.

    1. She didn’t vote voted not to approve/release the vaccine; she voted not to advise states to prioritize the institutionalized elderly after it has been approved.

      But there’s an argument to be made for it, though not the political hooey she put forth: young adults are the most likely to spread the virus around for a host of reasons, so you’ll get more bang for your buck by prioritizing them (especially those that leave the house to work anyway).

      Probably too clever by half, but at least there’s some logic to it.

      1. if the reason was slowing the spread by targeting those doing the spreading…. i would have to think about whether i would agree or not, but that would at least be a valid argument. personally, i think the elderly, especially those in nursing homes, are the ones getting screwed the most…. and they are the ones who can have no sense of normality until they are vaccinated, or the pandemic is quelled….. and if we can make it safe for them to not be isolated… by god do i want that. i will gladly wait for the dance clubs, movie theaters, and concerts to become a normal thing again if it means these people in their final years can see their grand kids again.

  16. “The COVID-19 Vaccine Did Not Kill Your Grandmother!!”

    You tell those preemptive strawmen, Ron.

  17. Why are grandmothers always the ones being murdered?

    1. It’s the patriarchy .

    2. Is grandpa already dead?

    3. If you’re not woke enough to answer that question you shouldn’t ask.

  18. >>Protecting health care workers makes sense

    why didn’t 14 million nurses contract the covids?

    1. They wear gloves and don’t touch their face.

    2. And they don’t have old tee shirts on their face.

    3. Because only half of them work with infectious people. The rest work in academia, research, oncology, obgyn, orthopedics, etc.

      Because covid is similar to other coronaviruses that they and everyone has already been exposed to, in ordinary colds, so most people are already immune.

      Because the non-immune nurses did catch it early and never had symptoms.

      Because nurses already practiced universal precautions around all patients, even before anyone heard of covid, to protect against TB, HIV, and tons of other germs.

      For all those reasons, that’s why millions of nurses haven’t gotten sick of covid or died. Some did.

      But that answers the question.

  19. Remember when the proper libertarian response to rumors of a vaccine mandate was to rant and rave against it?

    Now it’s “trust the government’s drug, you guys!”

    I mean, you could have just NOT WRITTEN ANYTHING on the subject, but no, somehow the “libertarian magazine” thing to do was to go out of your way to promote the state’s agenda.

    1. The “New” libertarianism.

  20. So along the same lines, we shouldn’t be worried when people in nursing homes get the covid and die, right?

    Right?

    1. They were going to die anyway. We all will, especially if we are old and in bad shape.

  21. Grandma was 101 after all. All things considered, I’m surprised she lasted that long. Oh, and Covid wasn’t even a twinkle in Xi’s eye then.

    Or was it?

  22. All of those logistical challenges culminated in nurse May Parsons inserting a syringe into Keenan’s left shoulder and depressing the plunger to deliver the vaccine. Parsons, originally from the Philippines, has worked for the NHS for the past 24 years.

    Stay at home stay safe and also follow the Coronavirus Disease (COVID 19) Guidelines according to WHO.

  23. Finally, my paycheck is $ 8,500? A working 10 hours per week online. My brother’s friend had an average of 12K for several months, he work about 22 hours a week. I can not believe how easy it is, once I try to do so. This is what I do… Here is More information.

  24. “Two of the first people vaccinated in the U.K. on Tuesday with the Pfizer Inc.-BioNTech SE shot responded adversely to the injection, the country’s National Health Service said, prompting the regulator to issue new guidance warning those with a history of significant allergic reactions against having the inoculation.”

  25. I’m not anti-vaccine in general–I’ve had all my shots, plus get annual flu vaccine–and I feel I understand the science of a vaccine at an advanced layman’s level. What I don’t trust is a rushed vaccine jammed through the various processes in record time under emergency pressures.

    People and companies and governments will cut corners to make a deadline. People will get hurt. For low-risk people (remember, for 30% of COVID infections, the symptoms are simply not noticeable, and for another 30% or so, the symptoms are very mild) the vaccine side-effects may be worse than getting COVID.

    Flu vaccines, MMR vaccines, polio vaccines, etc. were developed patiently (pun intended?) over years and well tested, with side-effects being very rare. I’m just not sure the same can be said of whatever Pfizer, et al., are churning out.

    Maybe to put it another way: I think I’d rather (personally) take my chances with nature’s virus than with the politicians and corporate folks who seem very intent on forcing me to take their shots knowing full well that they’ve rushed the process.

    When they put out the H1N1 vaccine, there were articles written about how the industry and government learned from the mistakes of the swine flu vaccine, and “this time it’s different”. Of course, it was exactly the same. Why should we believe them this time?

    Especially given the reported difficulty in storing and transporting these vaccines (the very low temps needed). If UPS lets a batch sit in the sun, will we know it? Will doctors properly store it? What are the effects of improperly stored vaccines?

  26. Meanwhile…

    Cornell University offers minority students an exemption from its flu vaccine requirement, citing the United States’ “longstanding systemic racism and health inequities” as justification.

    Cornell’s health-requirement guidelines, which were first reported by Campus Reform, mandate that students studying on campus receive a flu vaccination. The university offers an exemption, however, for “students who identify as Black, Indigenous, or as a Person of Color” and have concerns about being required to take the vaccine.

    The university cited current and historical systemic racism as an acceptable reason for minority students to seek an exemption.

    “It is understandable that the current Compact requirements may feel suspect or even exploitative to some BIPOC members of the Cornell community,” a university outline of the exemption reads. “Additionally, recent acts of violence against Black people by law enforcement may contribute to feelings of distrust or powerlessness.”

    While the university urges minority students to comply with the flu vaccine requirement to protect their health and that of others in the community, the health guidelines provide contact information for students who “may know the science and still feel distrusting of health care” to request an exemption.

    The only other specifically outlined exception from the flu vaccine requirement is for medical or religious reasons. Nonexempt students who arrive on campus without the required vaccinations “will have a temporary hold placed on their registration status,” according to Cornell Health. If Cornell finds them to be noncompliant, they will be charged a fee and “dis-enrolled from the university.”

    Will they be exempted from COVID vaccine requirements too?

  27. True, government regulation killed grandma.

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