George Floyd

Sending Secret Police To Do Protester Snatch-n-Grabs Is Bad, Mmmkay?

The Reason Roundtable talks Portland, policing, federalism, coronavirus, and the perennially dumb discourse.

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"It's nice," Elizabeth Nolan Brown wrote this morning in a long piece about the federal police crackdown in Portland, Oregon, "to see some lawmakers actually attempting to use their power to stop this, instead of simply trying to score Twitter points with spurious allegations that libertarians aren't freaking out enough."

That hyperlink takes you to this tweet, from Sen. Brian Schatz (D–Hawaii).

The senator's legislative track record on the relevant issues certainly contains some schatz of its own, but on today's Reason Roundtable podcast, Nick Gillespie, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Peter Suderman, and Matt Welch do their level best to unpack the legality and propriety of local and federal government action (and sometimes inaction) regarding street scuffles and property destruction, and how the White House is reportedly poised to roll out Portland-style intervention across several American cities.

The team also breaks down the latest breakdowns of how federal coronavirus responses broke down, tiptoes into the mask-policy wars, and builds extended metaphors out of the movie Brazil.

Audio production by Ian Keyser and Regan Taylor.

Music: "Fog Mist" by TrackTribe

Relevant links from the show:

"Feds Send Outside Agitators To Escalate Conflict in Portland," by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"What's Happening in Portland?" by Jonathan H. Adler

"ACLU Sues Federal Agents Deployed in Portland," by C.J. Ciaramella

"Disturbing Reports from Portland," by Keith E. Whittington

"Homeland Security Acting Like 'An Occupying Army' Says Sen. Wyden, After Federal Agents Shoot Peaceful Portland Protester," by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp Is Suing Atlanta's Mayor Over the City's Mask Mandate. Good," by Christian Britschgi

"Andrew Cuomo's Coronavirus Response Has Been a Failure," by Billy Binion

"What State and Local Governments Can Learn From the Coronavirus Crisis," by Veronique de Rugy


NEXT: Kmele Foster: Black Lives Matter 'Is Hostile Towards Free Markets and Capitalism'

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  1. How about grabbing rioters?

    1. Same thing, asshole. If someone is breaking the law, you use local law enforcement to arrest them, while clearly identifying the law enforcement agency, by reading them their rights, and preferably recording the whole thing with a body camera. The federal government has absolutely zero jurisdiction on the streets of Portland.

      1. And you can do all of that while surrounded by an angry, violent mob; all without resorting to any form of violence yourself.

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      2. The federal government has absolutely zero jurisdiction on the streets of Portland.

        Awwwww, doesn’t it suck when the police state you cheered on for 60 years gets turned on you?

        Oh, also, they’re patrolling federal buildings you retarded cunt.

        1. It’s retarded cunts all the way down, including some of the Reasonistas in the Podcast.
          Every single one of these “Secret Police” have the word “POLICE” written across chests in big, blocky, yellow letters, and all have their organizations badge on their shoulders. And every single protester they targeted was throwing shit or vandalizing.
          But dishonest shits like Chipper and the JournoListers above are pretending that trench-coated OGPU are snatching innocent bystanders.

          Fuck them all, when fascism does come to America nobody will believe it because of all this crying wolf.

          1. I have to agree. If a displayed badge and uniform is insufficient notice they are police, NOTHING is sufficient, as nothing of smaller size would be visible from any meaningful distance.

            Also, these arguments are willfully ignoring the fact that this is in the middle of active lawbreaking, when police are normally allowed, and even expected to make impromptu arrests of people who are endangering themselves and others.

            I call ignoratio elenchi. The fallacy of ignoring the question. They are comparing lawful arrests of people who are then put in normal prison to political abductions of people who are never seen again.

            1. Are you serious? If you are, I am saying as a medical professional, you NEED to put the crack pipe down, because you have scrambled your brain. You are trying to claim that a tiny shoulder patch in a non-standard location (which may or may not actually ve present) plus a cosplay level “police” patch one cam get from China for a few bucks, on a uniform devoid of any marker that could be used to identify individuals, worn by people employing police tactics associated with dictatorships from worst police culture must be considered functionally6 equivalent to standard police uniforms with 6-8″ high letters for the police agencies plus clear individual individual markers, worn by people adhering to standards of western law-enforcement professionalism that respect for civil liberties and individual rights. And if the first is not good enough and the second is also not good enough. That is utter drivel. There are no features of the protester lawbreaking that cannot be dealt with as well if not better by law enforcement which respects our constitutional liberties and Western values.
              And opposing l(mostly misdemeanor level) lawbreaking is justifying? Where did you get that idea. The Chinese Communist party, the NTVD?
              If the presence of lawbreaking is considered justification for law enforcement behaviors which are into intimately associated with corrupt tyrannies and enemies of our western freedoms, then anything can and will be justified because if there were no lawbreaking there would be no need for law-enforcement.

              1. Except they aren’t secret. When they get to a proper location, where things are quiet, the arresting officer fills out all appropriate paperwork, including name, rank, ID, and if rumor serves, nearly a dozen signatures.

                Saying “I cannot identify this person as a police officer” in the field despite wearing a police uniform, holding a police badge, equipped with police tools, putting you in a police car (even unmarked, it has a holding cage), and taking you to a police station, is just flat-out absurd.

                If you are worried about people impersonating police to perform their most dangerous task and actually attempt to arrest people, then I would question your ridiculous flights of fancy.

                Also, I put forth. What kind of identification do you want? Names and ID numbers embroidered on the riot vest? The requested information wouldn’t even be legible six feet away, especially in the confusion of a video. This is a flat-out ridiculous pretext to object to routine disorderly conduct arrests.

                Again, there is no comparison to actual secret police, who never sign their name and you are not seen again.

                1. Shut your lying eyes and just accept our narrative

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          3. The restarded cuntiness göes so deep in that in infects and has rotted the minds of otherwise rational people, They start to think that having a 1″ block letter patch indistinguishable from those used in cosplay , plus tiny agency patches on shoulders, claimed but not actually shown in photos, definitely not present initially and not meeting the usual standard of multi inch high letters on the chest plus lacking any individual identifier is quite reasonable for a police unform. Because nothing promotes accountability and professionalism in state actors more then being able to abuse authority without any possibility of being individually identified.

            These addled minds start to think that having these anono-goon maybe-maybenot cops engage in behavior associated with tin pot dictator’s and banana republics is compatible with constituionally limited Government.

            Yah. The term fascism has been miss-used to smear anything to the right of european labor parties for so long it doesn’t mean much anymore. I’m old enough to remember people calling Ronald Reagan fascist. He was a lot of things, fascist was not one of them. Same thing with socialism, the way it is used for by the right in the US, it’s anything to the left of Barry Goldwater. Barack Obama socialist? Yeah just like Ronald Reagan was a fascist.

            One things survivors of totalitarian takeovers are clear about is how it is hard to tell when the line into tyranny us crossed sometimes even in retrospect. Which is why the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. But we can’t seem to manage to see the obvious.

            So fuck all of the bullshit excuses and statist circle jerking going on. When fascism does come to America, you’ll have been willfully closing your eyes and ignoring its toxic behaviors for so long you’ll wonder why you’re standing against this wall and that guy is yelling ready, aim, fire. Congratulations you are now as blind to clear signs of right wing tyranny as tankie socialists are of creeping left-wing tyranny. Strong work, you have made yourselves every bit the retarded cunts they are.

      3. And when the local authorities refuse to enforce property rights and rule of law, what do you do then?

        The anarchist in me says fuck it, let it burn, but just like everywhere else, ostensibly some of those people being affected didn’t agree to being abandoned by their local governments.

        1. ostensibly some of those people being affected didn’t agree to being abandoned by their local governments.

          Yes they did.

      4. Fencing that had been placed around federal courthouse had also been removed by protesters and made into barricades, police tweeted.

        https://abc13.com/portland-oregon-protests-police-federal-agents/6324328/

      5. Chipper, as usual, everything you say is total bullshit. Let’s hope one of those statues gets pushed over on you next time you’re out rioting and looting.

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      7. Here’s the problem: from moment one the new “federal” agent uniforms lacked not only agency name (let alone the standard giant letters on ther chest but any indicator to tell one alleged federal agent from another. They grabbed people who, deserving of arrest or not, were not arrested but had black bags put over their heads and were taken to facilities where they were not booked into custody but treated more or less like political kidnapping victims.
        Take a look at her photo https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/18/portland-oreland-ag-lawsuit/ see the little yellow “police” on the chest? That’s it,. that is what we are supposed to have confidence that they are really police while the usual agencies denied having anything to do with it. I have tactical patches that could replace the “police.” According to to the logic of the many here slavering for the opportunity to act as apologists for state power, would make them mobile task force agents of the SCP foundation, protecting us from anomalous entities, objects and reality benders.

        Fact is, we have nothing but the word of ass-kissing bureaucrats that these are law-enforcement of any kind. They could be paramilitary mercenaries. Hell they could be Russian agents for all we know. Opposing protesters you don’t like does not make them protectors of liberty. Opposing protesters you don’t like does not make them protectors of liberty.

        Protesters destroying property and vandalizing should be arrested and thrown in jail. But anonymous paramilitaries kidnapping people off the street and who who bear no more evidence that they are legitimate law enforcement, than available to half-decent people cosplayers, should be treated differently. They should be shot.

        1. We have nothing but the word of asshoe Marxist criminals to backup your version

        2. I have to say, the “treated more or less like political kidnapping victims” description is undermined by the fact that the person was released to talk to us. The remaining details are either questionable (did they really put a bag over the person’s head? Why would they do that?), or clearly from a biased source prone to exaggeration.

          And why would they not be law enforcement? Who else would they be? Paramilitary mercenaries? Did I step into a Tom Clancy novel or poorly written video game? Even if they were hired guns, they would be law enforcement because they are working for a law agency. That’s how it works!

          That’s what’s wrong here. The objections make little sense and the claims are nonsensical.

        3. They could be paramilitary mercenaries. Hell they could be Russian agents for all we know.

          Whoever they are they deserve medals and support.

      8. When local, and state govt fail to protect citizens, and their property, doesn’t civil rights of equal protection kick in? The Mayor reneges on the oath of enforcing laws, the Governor closes his eyes to the abuse of civil rights, what prohibits the federal govt from stepping in?
        Me? Im of a mind to let the citizens die by the govt they voted for. Sounds like libertarians have blood lust in their soul too.

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  2. Sending Secret Police to Do Protester Snatch-n-Grabs Is Bad, Mmmkay?

    Why? No, seriously, why?

    ONe of the narratives we’ve been given is that hey, among the rioting mobs of crazies looting, burning, assaulting (and in the Chaz’s case, killing) there are scattered, within said mobs, “peaceful protesters”, so any blanket response is a human tragedy somewhere along the lines of Auschwitz.

    If you’re not allowed to produce any kind of blanket response to the nasty behavior we see behind the CNN commentator assuring us that everything is totes peaceful, then targeting the bad actors is the ONLY tool you have left.

    1. I know this place is a shadow of what it used to be but today’s soi-disant “libertarians” are really defending secret fucking police? We’ve hit rock bottom and started to dig.

        1. So also no answer to his question then.

      1. Are you seriously defending mobs who have even LESS oversight than the cops? Those people who murdered folks in CHAZ…do you think any of them will ever even be NAMED, much less punished for it?

      2. So no answer to his question then.

      3. Show us the secret police, dave

      4. By ‘secret’ police, you mean undercover?

        1. If Antifa is establishing their own law and order with the governor and mayor’s blessing, that would make them secret police, no?

          Hitler didn’t rise to the Chancellorship and then create the brownshirts and the SS, they supported the party and eventually the government he took control of.

          1. If Antifa is establishing their own law and order with the governor and mayor’s blessing, that would make them secret police, no?

            CHAZ security was a “private security force”. Run that down the rabbit hole for funsies.

            1. None of them want to risk their status among the Twitterati, those questions will never be entertained, much less answered.

          2. A very good point

      5. I know this place is a shadow of what it used to be but today’s soi-disant “libertarians” are really defending secret fucking police? We’ve hit rock bottom and started to dig.

        But enough about Welch, Gillespie, KMW, ENB, et al. taking Wyden, Merkley, and Antifa’s side.

        1. You do realize it is possible to say “Antifa is wrong, but attempting to stop them with Federal Officers who aren’t in uniform is a cure far worse than the disease”, right?

          1. You do realize that has dick to do with this story right?

          2. You do realize it is possible to say “Antifa is wrong, but attempting to stop them with Federal Officers who aren’t in uniform is a cure far worse than the disease”, right?

            You do realize that Trump isn’t trying to destroy Antifa with what he’s doing in Portland but that Antifa (Wyden, Merkley, etc) *are* trying to destroy Trump and America with what they’re trying to do in Portland, right?

            That Trump could, with a simple decree, declare it an insurrection and have no-shit federal troops quell the unrest but doesn’t while Antifa is freely and avowedly doing what they’re doing in order to destroy the government and large swaths of American life, right?

            1. You are accusing people of being on Antifa’s side. My point is that you can be against Antifa and yet believe dealing with them needs to be left to the local level.

              I certainly believe that. Not in the least because I believe that Trump’s reaction here has now given Portland’s feckless leaders the ability to blame every problem from this point forward on him. If I had any sense that he could have actually ended these protests without declaring martial law and abrogating the powers of the State/City unto himself, I might have been interested.

              But he cannot do that. He cannot stop these people from assembling every night to pick fights with the US Marshalls. And when someone finally gets killed, it will be Trump who is blamed in the history books. Not the asshole mayors who aided and abetted these asshats. It will be the story of how the US came in and crushed peaceful assembly.

              1. My point is that you can be against Antifa and yet believe dealing with them needs to be left to the local level.

                You assume this isn’t the case. Trump issued officers to federal property. They aren’t permeating all of Seattle and Portland looking to assassinate black civil rights leaders in their own hotel rooms. If Antifa wants to go back to occupying CHAZ and the 3rd or 8th or whatever precinct, that’s a local matter.

                Moreover, because Reason blew their ‘pox on both houses’ prematurely in the Trump administration (and even a little before) they have passed the Rubicon and can’t see that this isn’t necessarily a case of the cure being worse than the disease but more of a “Will the cancer or chemo (or diabetes) kill the patient first?” situation. I said it above and I’ll say it here again: Hitler didn’t get elected President/Chancellor and then create the brownshirts and the SS and use them to solidify power, he used the brownshirts and the SS to attain the Chancellorship in order to solidify his populist legitimacy. People said when Trump got elected that he was Hitler. I said it then and it’s still true maybe more now than then: it seems much more appropriate that he’s really Freidrich Ebert or Paul von Hindenberg.

                It will be the story of how the US came in and crushed peaceful assembly.

                You mean the way Lincoln is widely depicted jailing journalists and declaring and then putting down insurrections left and right? The way J. Edgar Hoover and Elliot Ness are commemorated as violating people’s right to peaceably assemble, drink alcohol, and other civil liberties left, right, and center?

                I wouldn’t claim Trump to be Lincoln’s equivalent like HRC did, but I wouldn’t claim to be able to read Trump’s mind and, as I said, from where I sit it looks like a “Will the chemo or the cancer kill the patient first?” We can always stop the chemo. Trump won’t possibly win another 8 yrs. If, however, the cancer hasn’t been cured by then, I don’t think it ever will be. And the Nazis were rather effectively put down while the zombies of Mao and Stalin *still* shamble about.

          3. It is possible. I haven’t seen anyone really making that argument here.

          4. Military cammo fatigues are a uniform.

            1. Holy hell?!? DesigNate and MatthewSlyfield? I haven’t seen those logins in ages.

              Almost makes me wonder if they aren’t another pair of old logins that have been dug up and used as socks.

              If real, welcome back.

              And, true, they haven’t been called fatigues since Vietnam and while more approriate the name BDUs or Battle Dress *Uniforms* is similarly obsolete.

              1. This is the same DesigNate. I lurk and shoot off my mouth every once in a while, but work and life and kids get in the way. You know how it is.

          5. “…who aren’t in uniform…”

            The helmet, fatigues, and insignia are his causal wear?

            Are you trying to make yourself sound stupid?

      6. There are only a handful of libertarians that still comment here. Most of the commenters here are Trump cultists. All normal people have long abandoned supporting Trump.

        1. No idea why we should care what someone who seriously calls his political enemies “cultists” thinks.

        2. Right, asking what the tactics on the ground should be when responding to violent public acts when the crowd is a mix of peaceful and non-peaceful protesters is support for Trump.

          1. Hey look, Chipper’s sockpuppet agrees with his defense of psychotic Marxist street violence. See how popular and well-supported his FACTS and LOGIC are?

            1. Is that supposed to be chipper’s sad little boner or something?

            2. I don’t use socks, Tulpa. You, on the other hand, have at least three running in this thread. Fuck off.

              1. Oh and Chipper after lying about using socks loses because of a false Tulpa sighting!!!

                Run Chip!

              2. Everyone is a “Trump cultist” or “Tulpa” and you’re totally sane.

                1. Ugh, any response to Tulpa only encourages him. There is no good response to pigeon chess except to leave. Bye.

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                  2. So you’re routinely beaten by pigeons at chess?
                    I don’t think any of us are surprised.

          2. Was that the sound of your head flying straight into chippers ass?

            Lots of us are not trump supporters and will not be voting for him, but because we disagree with you dumb fucks you’ll just go right ahead and lump us all together. Remind me again how libertarian it is to be a collectivist?

      7. I wouldn’t defend secrets police or trials. Just not sure that is what is happening. Unmarked cars are a different thing then secret police. I’ve been arrested by an unmarked car in my youth (weed) and it wasn’t any different then a marked one. This libertarian also grew up believing (wasn’t alive) that it was a good thing that the National guard was called up to protect people’s civil rights and still do. I guess the parable about crying wolf is on full display; I’ve heard people scream about the Trump admin only to see nothing for too long now.

        1. You’re taking a sensible approach to this, so expect to be screamed at by crazy people. That seems to be the main theme of 2020.

      8. Everyone knows the real libertarians are the ones defending race riots, arson, theft, assault, rape, and murder without consequence. Free minds and free markets baby! CHAZ/CHOP 2020! WHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      9. Are they secret police? Or are they members of DHS and CBP?

        1. 1. CBP is under DHS, so your statement is redundant.
          2. I doubt CBP is involved. The are probably mostly US Marshals, (not so)Secret Service, and FBI.

      10. This place has been shit for years. Most reasonable commenters left and now it’s just dumbasses cheering for a “side”. Can’t expect critical thinking.

        1. You don’t need to give us your origin story, really.

        2. This place went to shit around 2016.

          1. you guys are chained to the wall somewhere?

            1. his mom put him on restriction

            2. Chipper is right, but doesn’t see what initially started the slide.

        3. Ok it’s not just me then. I used to like commenting here. At least you could actually debate the merits of an issue without offending the Breitbart Junior Cadets

          1. Fuck off Chipper.

          2. Only Vox links for Dave.

      11. defending violent communists are you? choose your poison only one side somewhere has a shred of respect for you as an individual.

      12. What’s secret? They have police patches on the front and back as well as the agency they are a part of on their arms.

      13. It’s not a secret if we’re discussing it here, now is it?

      14. There are no secret police

      15. they aren’t so much secret fucking police as counter-revolutionaries. Do you not like revolters? Which ones? Does it cause a reaction in you?

      16. you going to have to put in a lot work to get a definition of “secret police” that defines federal law enforcement officers in Portland enforcing federal law.

    2. To give you a serious answer: because the vast majority of people protesting are actually just protesting. You need to take a break from the internet outrage echo chamber if you honestly think there are giant roving bands of rioters destroying major cities across America.

      1. And the assertions of you, an internet troll, are worth listening to.

      2. Now, what percentage of those arrested are rioters vs how many were protesters?

        1. Policing is a local issue. Sending in federal officers without any identification who do whatever the fuck they want is something you’re supposed to read about happening in a 3rd world hell-hole. Unless the you ess of ay is a banana republic.

          1. Cool story, but they arent doing “whatever the fuck they want” so what are you moaning about. And the reports I saw said they had ID as well.

            Is this your thing? You’re the “hyperbolically misrepresent things” guy here?

            1. He gets like this when he’s drunk and we talk about cops.

            2. Well I’m not someone with no sense of humor who is serious all the time and takes everything and everyone seriously, if that’s what you mean. I’m seriously not like that. At all.

              1. Ok the Stewart clown nose move.

                1. I assume that is a Daily Show reference but beyond that I don’t get it. I don’t watch much tv.

                  1. That’s ok this is more an at you not with you moment anyway.

                    1. The feeling is mutual.

                    2. The feeling you saud that you don’t understand you mean?

                    3. Lol, you just admitted you didn’t get the joke. Excellent retort. Go back to your fucking booze you half retarded inbred piece of drunken shit.

                  2. Drano. He should drink Drano.

          2. Policing is a local issue

            Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t. Your blanket assertion is nonsense.

            1. No, it really is. Policing is not the job of the federal government. Ever. Full stop.

              1. The Constitution’s section on borders disagrees.

              2. So then it was wrong for the National Guard to forcibly desegregate schools in the south? Think carefully before you answer, this might just be a trick question.

                1. Do you even know what happened in the south? Because it absolutely was not the National Guard forcibly desegregating schools.

                  1. Wrong.

                    “United States President Dwight D. Eisenhower reacted to this use of the Guard to foil the court-ordered integration by federalizing the entire Arkansas National Guard and using it to protect the nine black students integrating Central High School.”

              3. Good to see you in full support of civil rights era KKK and the local government collaborating with them.

            2. Aw, fuck. You got me. With very few exceptions, like Border Patrol for example, policing is a local issue.

              Happy now?

              1. It’s a start.

                1. Being that what these guys are doing isn’t border related, I fail to see why that mattered. Unless you’re one of those who points out a tiny exception and says it invalidates the entire point of what someone is trying to say. Very lawyerly of you.

                  1. I fail to see why that mattered

                    “accuracy doesn’t matter”

                    1. Dude, if spot-on accuracy was a requirement, then comments would be long an boring. We’re not writing contracts here.

                    2. “if spot-on accuracy was a requirement”

                      “I’m too lazy to be accurate”

                    3. Dude, if spot-on accuracy was a requirement, then comments would be long an boring. We’re not writing contracts here.

                      Funny how whenever you get caught lying or blatantly misrepresenting the facts you’re always the world’s greatest comedian or else speaking extemporaneously, but everyone who rubs your nose in your lies like a dog in his shit is a Trumpalo.

                    4. Stewart clown nose move.

                  2. Considering the people involved would potetnially and most likely be pursuing Federal civil rights violations, it absolutely matters.

                    1. Quiet I’m enjoying watching sarcasmic explain why being wrong is virtuous.

          3. Sending in federal officers without any identification who do whatever the fuck they want is something you’re supposed to read about happening in a 3rd world hell-hole.

            They aren’t doing whatever the hell they want. It’s not like they assassinated MLK on the balcony of his hotel room. They aren’t roaming Seattle at large picking up people dressed in black miles from any protest site. They’ve identified and apprehended “protesters” who were breaking laws within blocks of a federal site that was being protested.

            And every video and allegation I’ve seen, the vehicles used in the apprehension had clearly identifiable license plates as required by law.

            1. Yeah. Plates on rental cars clearly identify the kidnappers as government agents.

              1. “kidnappers”

                You put your clown nose back on.

                1. You’re telling me that grabbing people off the street and shoving them into vehicles against their will, and then driving away, isn’t kidnapping? C’mon, man. The only difference between an arrest and a kidnapping is the employer of the person doing it.

                  1. >>grabbing people off the street and shoving them into vehicles against their will, and then driving away, isn’t kidnapping?

                    p.d. s.o.p.

                  2. Which is why you are this vehemently opposed to every arrest ever undertaken in the history of America, right? Because you certainly aren’t selectively outraged only when it affects psychotic violent Marxists. Because you totally aren’t a psychotic violent Marxist. Or, to be accurate, a frustrated, impotent, pathetic, drunken, psychotic violent Marxist manque.

                  3. Clown nose off.

                    1. I might be borrowing this.

                  4. The only difference between an arrest and a kidnapping is the employer of the person doing it.

                    No wonder you are always getting in trouble with the cops

                    1. I didn’t know I was in trouble with the cops. Thanks for telling me. Must have been something I did with your mom.

                    2. No worries, your ED isn’t against the law, just disappointing.

              2. Yeah. Plates on rental cars clearly identify the kidnappers as government agents.

                Do you want MRAPs? Because that’s how you get MRAPs!

      3. the vast majority of people protesting are actually just protesting.

        the vast majority of people protesting were not taken.

      4. If I was being lumped in with law breakers, I would be indentifying the law beakers to police. That’s not happening, so no matter how peaceful, its aiding and abetting.

    3. Because they needed a dumb dramatic story to fill their dumb drama quota for the weekend. Are you not entertained?

  3. Also file under “Bad” – it turns out the Fed Ex imposter who tried to assassinate a federal judge but instead killed her son was another violent right-wing nutjob Trump-Tard by the name of Roy Den Hollander.

    Chalk another political murder up to Conservatism.

    1. What is the price of tea in China?

    2. Now only 119,999,999 behind your guys!

      1. Nope. Its like 61 murders by right wing nuts vs 0 in the last ten years. Dylan Roof and a few dozen other far right nuts have an insurmountable lead.

        1. If my ideology killed 120 million like yours did AmSoc I’d lie about it like you do too.

          1. Fuck you. I am a capitalist like Ayn Rand and Hayek. And like them I despise conservatives. Rand hated Reagan and campaigned against him but if she saw Bush and Trump she would vomit.

            Of course she would despise Bernie Sanders too. Good for her.

            But to you Trump fascists – you are an enemy of capitalism.

            1. “Fuck you. I am a capitalist like Ayn Rand and Hayek”

              Sure Moneyshot.

            2. “I am a capitalist ”

              Even your attempts to deny your Marxism use Marxist rhetoric.

            3. I thought capitalists paid back their debts? Did Rand fuck kids too, or is that another one just in the “you” column?

            4. You believe in free markets about as much as Tony believes in small government.

            5. And you’re an enemy of young boy’s rectums. Fucking pedophile.

        2. “0 in the last ten years”

          Just one example to prove you’re lying

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnette_Chapel_shooting

          1. revenge for the 2015 Charleston church shooting.

            Revenge.

            Political revenge I assume you would say.

            Arguable but +1 anyway.

            1. Ok so politics don’t matter if it’s revenge. Your standards are pretty stupid tbh.

              1. I corrected for it.

                +1

                1. Did you? I don’t see where you admit you were lying anywhere.

                  I do see you putting a +1 up and then trying to act like that means you weren’t lying.

                  1. He also doesn’t like to admit he posted child porn links here last year.

        3. Its like 61 murders by right wing nuts vs 0 in the last ten years.

          What you say when black lives don’t matter.

        4. Presumably we’re including the Democratic activist who murdered her husband with fish tank cleaner, right?

          1. The killings in CHAZ. The killing of David Dorn in St. Louis. None of those black lives seemed to matter too much. The killing of the 8 yr old girl in Atlanta by BLM. Also, her life didn’t matter much to them.

          2. Again, the officers who stood on George Floyd’s neck were serving the will of a Republican Mayor, Republican Governor, or a Republican Electorate?

    3. >>right-wing nutjob Trump-Tard

      isn’t this an Epstein matter?

        1. Ugh! What rotten luck. Well let’s just assume he was a Trump voter and move on

          1. Right?
            Oh well.
            Trump supporter, end of story!
            Nothing to see here, move it along.
            Just another typical rightwinger trumpist deplorable xenophobe.
            No further questions!

    4. “Roy Den Hollander represented a New Jersey woman suing the U.S. Selective Service System for the ability to register for the draft”

      “right-wing”

      1. He’s keeping em barefoot and pregnant

    5. And then he killed himself before we could find out why he did it!!! Darn!!!!

      1. Apparently she ruled against him recently.
        In 2015

        1. I’m going to go out on a limb* and say Maxwell herself could be behind it

          **hopefully not a limb with a hanging rope conveniently tied to it.

        2. I thought one of the cases he had in her court was still ongoing?

          So, our theory is a guy got ruled against, or was treated like a jerk by this judge, and he got so pissed about it that he went to her house to kill her? Even went to the trouble of wearing a disguise so they’d answer the door. It’d be hilarious if he rang the doorbell, and they were all, “Just leave it outside, Thanks!”)

          Anyway, despite shooting the first two people he sees when they do open the door, he doesn’t walk around in the house to try and find her? Just bolts, drives away, and kills himself somewhere else? With what, a handwritten confession signed by the guy, and sitting next to his corpse?

          Weird.

    6. nope. you’re wrong on at least two threads now dude

      1. Shriek never met a deranged psychopath he wouldn’t try to tie to “the right-wing”, facts never damned.

  4. Also known as arrests. Yes, all arrests are bad. They all need to be justified versus a greater evil.

    Arresting a protester isn’t worse than arresting anyone else. It’s exactly the same. Legal requirements are exactly the same.

    Dumb drama is dumb.

  5. Not to be one of the dastardlies “not freaking out enough,” but is it really insightful, rather than simply emotive, to speak of “secret police” and “snatch and grabs”? What separates a rule-of-law republic from a Colonels’ Regime are specific details…Were the arrests with cause, or not? Were the detainees able to access counsel and hearing, or not? And so forth. It seems rather appropriate that they be arrested with a minimum of incident, if at all, for example. (I bet there are plenty of people who wish David Koresh had been hustled quietly into a van when he least expected it, for example.)

    1. Secret police has a different connotation than “undercover police”. Both are similar in that they are non-uniformed. However, one presumes that they are really attached to a national intelligence agency looking for political crimes, whereas the second suggests a normal police force that operates out of uniform to better blend in with regular civilians and catch normal crimes of violence/mayhem without tipping off the perpetrators to their presence. Words mean things.

      Should we now refer to any non-uniformed agent of the government with the power of ‘enforcement’ as ‘secret police’.

      1. Ah so it is just a meaningless propaganda slur. Why is Reason parroting this nonsense? Is it supposed to show how super-libertarian they are?

        1. The entire left wing media is gaslighting in the most stupid manner imaginable, and millions of idiots are clamoring for more gaslight

        2. Why is Reason parroting this nonsense? Is it supposed to show how super-libertarian they are?

          Yes, otherwise they would have to face some hard truths that would be impediments to their career goals at wapo or nyt.

      2. The longer you stare at it, the longer you realize that it’s false narrative bullshit.

        All the ‘snatch and grabs’ are done on public property. Like it or not, no warrant is required and hasn’t been for quite a long time. The police can pick you up off the public street for questioning, sans warrant, any time they like.

        What the police cannot do without a warrant and what traditionally constitutes ‘secret police’ is enter private property and seize persons/evidence. They can’t deny you a phone call. They can’t deny you legal representation. They can’t detain you for 24(ish) hours…

        Otherwise, wander on to an airport runway in just about any country in the world, try to hop behind the desk of your local post office, or light a cigarette in a (federal) courthouse in California and see what warrants are issued before police, uniformed or not, forcibly relocate you without your permission.

        1. the longer you realize

          The *more* you realize.

  6. Libertarians should indeed be concerned about Portland — concerned that its Communist mayor and police chief have been deliberately enabling Antifa terrorists to control a no-go zone for three years now! It’s way past time the feds cracked down as hard as necessary to stop it. And if they fail, militias will have to do it.

    Reason, stop taking the side of Communist thugs. You are throwing away your credibility.

    1. Where is the Antifa no-go zone, I work in the area of the Federal Buildings and City Hall, I have never had to pass an Antifa checkpoint.

      1. You should consider at least watching a couple of publicly available videos before you LARP on your third sock of the day, sarcasmic.

    2. Unreason lost any credibility years ago.

      Unreason advocated for probable causeless and due
      processless impeachment of trump.

      Nonpeaceful assembly should not be ended.

      John lewis was not a racist piece of shit.
      …..

  7. Here are your peaceful protestors

    https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo

    1. Attempted mass murder via arson isn’t real violence

      1. it’s my fault you can’t outrun a fire?

        1. Yes, now shut up and put your fucking mask back on.

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  9. I dunno, I think this is a lot better than confrontations. As long as they have warrants and they get to appear before a judge, snatching people off the street is a lot better than breaking into their home and shooting them.

    1. As long as they have warrants and they get to appear before a judge, snatching people off the street is a lot better than breaking into their home and shooting them.

      Again, (and this is getting a bit retarded but…) I’m obviously not 100% opposed to the idea of warrants but if the police show up on the scene and Kato Kaelin’s performing CPR on the now corpse of Nicole Brown Simpson and says “OJ did it!” they don’t have to contact a judge before putting out an APB on a white Ford Bronco and detaining/arresting the occupants. Again, stupidity being what it is, it would be nice if they had evidence and warrants for every arrest, but it’s not necessary nor necessarily practical.

  10. FYI, as a libertarian, I’m 100% for handling any violent protests or riots with private security forces.

    1. I was out of town and distracted this weekend, so I didn’t pay much attention. However I do notice several things:

      1) 3 weeks ago the same people who were crowing about how it wasn’t Trump’s job to bail Minneapolis out of its looting problems, are now the ones that are keen on Trump defending people’s rights in Portland.

      2) I agreed with these people 3 weeks ago, and cannot understand what has suddenly happened to change their minds. If it is the Federal Government’s job to pay officers to go into Portland to keep the peace, it is pretty easy to say that the FedGov also ought to pay for damages in these cities.

      3) Regardless of the propriety of this, I don’t see why people are cheering Trump on here: ESPECIALLY Trump supporters. The violence in Portland was a horrible mark on the BLM/Antifa/Liberal agenda. And had they decided to torch a Federal Building as well, it would have made him look even better.

      Liberal Mayors had the faustian choice of letting rioters burn down police precincts or to get caught beating up “peaceful protestors”. But now Trump owns that choice. He could have realistically blamed this on every single democrat city, but now it is he who is shooting people in the face, or fecklessly running away to let buildings burn.

      On top of that, the local governments are not going to help him. So every night for the next 4 Months you are going to see these protestors going out into the street, as they dare Trump to do something even stupider like bring in the military.

      1. 1) 3 weeks ago the same people who were crowing about how it wasn’t Trump’s job to bail Minneapolis out of its looting problems, are now the ones that are keen on Trump defending people’s rights in Portland

        But no links to them. Weird.

        it is pretty easy to say that the FedGov also ought to pay for damages in these cities.

        If by easy you mean doesn’t follow at all I guess.

      2. So you’re just going to 100% jump on board the leftist narrative now?
        I’m not “keen” on what Trump’s doing here, but neither do I condemn it.
        And I’m damn sure not about to assign Trump 100% responsibility for what happens from here on out because of a coordinated media push to supplement marxist terrorists.

      3. 3 weeks ago is when the local governments started charging people who were defending themselves from mobs.

        How do you feel about those?

      4. Liberal Mayors had the faustian choice of letting rioters burn down police precincts or to get caught beating up “peaceful protestors”.

        “Fuastian choice” between civlization and mob rule. Yes, quite the quandary. Because you just need to give them some space to burn or something.

  11. Having lived in Portland for close to 30 years, there is a certain rhythm to the protests here. There are the truly peaceful protestors, and then there are the dedicated “rent a mob”. It is the mob that need to be stopped and arrested, not the peaceful protestors.

    While there was looting early on, that has largely stopped. IIRC there has been one tor two instance after the initial week, so I’m amused to read about the nightly looting that must be stopped.

    Also, I find myself in an interesting position, it seems that I have raised a daughter who is an independent thinker who gets upset when the police overreact react disproportionately when people do not comply fast enough. She has been joining the peaceful protests. We have had some very interesting discussions the last few weeks on policing, ending the war on drugs, the war on poverty and while we disagree on many points, there are also points of agreement.

    Last night I happened to be outside, about 3 miles from downtown, when the Feds fired on the crowd to disperse them. It sounded like a war zone.

    I thought that libertarians got upset when police overstepped. I thought we believed in “innocent until proven guilty”. But I guess if your a peaceful protestor standing in the street, your by default a rioter, thanks for updating that definition for me.

    Just remember, two things can be true at the same time, there are peaceful protestors and there is the mob. Ae you advocating that the government response to both should be the same? So much for smaller and limited government.

    One last point, the protests were dying down before the Feds arrived, now they are bigger than ever.

    1. If you’re gping to run socks and obliquely whine about shit you don’t understand at least try not to be repetitive and cover ground that’s been trod over for months, obvious sockpuppet.

    2. I thought that libertarians got upset when police overstepped.

      There are a lot of Trump people that post here – they are in no way libertarian.

      1. And as a Marxist, you know “in no way libertarian” amirite AmSoc?

    3. It is the mob that need to be stopped and arrested, not the peaceful protestors.

      No one disagrees with that (in general). For instance, there are going to be exceptions to that, such as when peaceful protesters create a danger to themselves or others– wandering out to the middle of I5 is a fantastic example.

      However, if you’ve got a crowd and X percent are peaceful and Y percent are not, there has to be an on-the-ground strategy to deal with that. I don’t pretend to have the perfect answer. All we’re getting here is a passive “you can’t do this, you can’t do that” but providing no guidance as to what can be done. It’s getting to be a little like the chokehold debate. If you keep banning every nominally non-lethal method of subduing a suspect, you leave the police with nothing but lethal methods.

      In the bigger picture, we’re seeing the result of this in regards to the CHAZ. We saw what happened when police took ‘de-escalation’ down the rabbit hole. Now residents and businesses are suing the city in a class-action accusing the city of providing what is essentially “material support” to the protesters.

      1. However, if you’ve got a crowd and X percent are peaceful and Y percent are not, there has to be an on-the-ground strategy to deal with that. I don’t pretend to have the perfect answer.

        Even if you had the perfect answer, the second time you used it would get progressively less perfect.

        All we’re getting here is a passive “you can’t do this, you can’t do that” but providing no guidance as to what can be done.

        And this is smoothing over a lot of bumps. We’re getting a lot of “You can’t do what the Nazis did!” while ignoring the fact that if the worst thing the Nazis had done was snatch and grab dissidents, a lot more of the world would probably be speaking German right now. That’s not to say that Federal troops should be empowered to Nazi levels, but a snatch and grab followed by a 2 hour detention with a phone isn’t the same ‘this’ as a snatch and grab that ends with a train to Auschwitz.

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    4. You’re daughter definitely isn’t an “independent thinker” if she’s protesting.
      You’re a horrible parent

    5. My dad owns Counter-Strike.

      Also you’re a retarded cunt, sarcasmic.

    6. “One last point, the protests were dying down before the Feds arrived, now they are bigger than ever.”

      Post hoc, ergo procter hoc.

      1. It’s like the semantic shift of ‘budget cut’; he doesn’t mean the protests were ‘dying down’ as in ‘reaching a point of no protests’ he means the protests were dying back down to the clockwork rhythm that he describes in the first sentence.

        Back to the good old days of civility when Antifa and The Proud Boys would duke it out in the street, journalists like Andy Ngo would get clocked over the head with a makeshift weapons, and speakers like Christina Hoff Sommers (at Lewis & Clark) and James Damore (at Portland State) would have their talks suffer the heckler’s veto and/or destructively sabotaged (respectively).

  12. HEADLINE: Unidentified Federal Agents Are Detaining Protesters in Portland.
    https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/388347/
    Accompanying photo: Agent with face fully exposed, in uniform with U.S. Border Patrol insignia and an identifying number.

    1. Uniformed agents of the federal government arresting people for federal crimes is basically the Stasi, while masked rampaging psychopaths burning private businesses to the ground and occupying a square mile of an urban city with their own private security forces that murdered at least 4 people is basically peaceable assembly.

      1. You forgot: assaulting people who they even suspect of having political views not exactly aligned with theirs

    2. I can’t quite make out his Mom, girlfriend, or kids’ name(s) tattooed on his forearms.

      He must be using bitcoin.

  13. I’m not the only one who can remember the good old days when the problem was uniformed police officers standing on black guy’s necks, right?

    Weird how racial inequality in policing is unbearable right up until federal officers start snatching white kids off the street near protest sights and tear gassing predominantly white crowds in Portland.

    Still putting it at least 50 yrs. before we circle around to the issue being policing in general.

  14. If Senator Schatz knew anything about libertarians, he’d know we don’t like being told what we should think or do.

    As it happens, I am pretty concerned.

    But there are tough libertarian issues at play.

    So the first person who says “if you’re not outraged you’re not paying attention” can go fuck himself sideways.

    1. I’m not concerned. Not because I don’t care about such things, I do, but because everything right now is nothing but noise. There is no trustable information available. Everything is shrouded in agendas of one shade or another. Nothing said by anyone can be believed.

      That concerns me more than anything. There isn’t a single source that can be trusted about anything at all. Reason used to be a source that could be trusted, though I’m not convinced it is any longer. Were it not for propaganda, there would be near complete silence. The US is now an ultra low-trust society. Not because Americans aren’t trusting people, but because the loudest mouths talking, in a place where everyone is screaming, are purposefully trying to deceive.

      I have no idea what’s happening in Portland because no one sees it fit to say what’s happening in Portland. They’re all too busy trying to convince me their spin on what’s happening in Portland, and about everything else, is correct. Reason is not innocent in this. There are no “Secret Police.” At least what they’re describing isn’t, though by using that specific phrase, they’re trying to convince me that the federal response to whatever it is that’s happening is literally the return of naziism.

      I know that’s false, but don’t have a clue as to what’s true.

      1. Reason used to be a source that could be trusted

        This is reaching. At one point the magazine could be trusted to bring you libertarianism and/or objective truth a larger portion of the time than the general media.

        Now if you read both the articles and the comments, you get bits and pieces and links to facts that are slightly less slanted and considerably more free than other news sources and associated forums.

      2. they’re trying to convince me that the federal response to whatever it is that’s happening is literally the return of naziism.

        Meanwhile they ignore the modern version of the SA.

  15. “Sending Secret Police To Do Protester Snatch-n-Grabs Is Bad, Mmmkay?”

    No, it isn’t.
    China does it.
    Cuba does it.
    Venezuela does it.
    Iran does it, and if it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for the good ol’ USA.

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  16. Reason wants that violent socialist Jacobinite revolution that “fundamentally transforms” America so badly they can taste it!

  17. You know what? I hope the lefties get what they want, get elected, get real political power, and use their new found power to end the scourge of libertarianism forever. You are apparently target #1.

    Cause that is what is going down. Good luck to you.

    Oh and meanwhile as you were dithering and hand wringing over police performing their duty to restore order from chaos, that couple from St Louis is getting charged for protecting themselves with firearms. Not a peep from this crowd. Guess the 2A is done here as well.

    1. “Oh and meanwhile as you were dithering and hand wringing over police performing their duty to restore order from chaos, that couple from St Louis is getting charged for protecting themselves with firearms. Not a peep from this crowd. Guess the 2A is done here as well.”

      Pretty sure the MO Governor has said he’ll pardon the two. I’m not sure if he has to wait until there’s a conviction to do so (unlike the Federal system)

      The silence from the writers is pretty bad. I don’t recall one of them defending what the couple did. So, the city cops aren’t trying to stop this, if the Feds try, Reason staff get conniption fits over it, and any individual citizen defending their property gets rung up by the local DA. Exactly how would Reason like the rioting and property destruction to end?

      1. Exactly how would Reason like the rioting and property destruction to end?

        Best case scenario, Americans and immigrants will band together as one, see Trump for the murderous dictator that he is, don the face mask (or bandana, or any type of cloth garment really), storm the White House and pull the Bad Orange out from under his desk and him the ol Gaddafi bayonet surprise, streamed live on TikTok. Hillary tweets a pic of her massive erection with the hashtag #WeCameWeSawHeDied, retweeted 6 billion times, 10.4 billion likes, Michael Flynn is finally charged with crimes against humanity and sentenced to death via hydroxycloroquine injection, Biden dies of covid and the commentariat finally realize it wasn’t just a bad flu after all, collectively issuing an apology letter to Ron Bailey. Hillary (reluctantly) swoops in and claims her right to the throne getting a whopping 100% of the libertarian vote, and finally, peace and order are restored to the galaxy. I’m guessing.

        1. Still better than how they wrapped up the last Star Wars trilogy, Nail.

          I’d watch it.

      2. The Missouri AG has already filed to have the charges dismissed.

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  19. Sending Secret Police To Do Protester Snatch-n-Grabs Is Bad, Mmmkay?

    Yes it is. So is sending in armored gorilla cavalry riding fire-breathing dragons to lay waste to the countryside. What’s your point? Do you have any evidence that there are “secret police” doing “protestor snatch and grabs” rather than simply federal law enforcement protecting federal property, as is their fucking job? Are there any reports of federal officials lifting a finger to stop the “peaceful protests” that involve looting and attacking and burning non-federal property? Or is the rioting still going on?

    This seems to me a crock of shit aimed at blaming Trump for whatever happens next because “he sent in secret police to put down the insurrection” although he did no such thing. Federal law enforcement has no remit to interfere in local business and it would be stupid of Trump to put down the riots without being asked, without local officials admitting that they have lost control of the situation and need Trump to bail them out. Trump is not that goddamn stupid, yet here you are asserting that he is indeed that stupid and pushing the phony narrative that Trump is indeed moving to put down the riots. THEY ARE PROTECTING FEDERAL PROPERTY AND THAT IS ALL. Go fuck yourself if you’re deliberately lying about what’s going on just so you can say that Trump owns this tarbaby now. This is some seriously fucked-up shit that you would push this narrative.

    1. “This is some seriously fucked-up shit that you would push this narrative.”

      You sound new here. Your name doesn’t look new here, but you sure sound new here. Pushing narrative is pretty much all they have done here since the last POTUS election.

      1. No, Jerry’s always been principled unlike our loudest progressatarians.

  20. Fuck headlines like this. If you want to condemn what the feds are doing, condemn away. Don’t parrot LIES.

    They aren’t secret police. These aren’t snatch-and-grabs. People are being detained and read their rights. They’re also released later. It’s not the Gestapo, not the Stasi.

    Now we can still discuss the legality of these arrests. There’s procedural questions-are people being informed what charges, or what suspicions are being used to justify these arrests? Police may claim they’re merely briefly detaining them for questioning, but taking them forcibly from one location to a different location should always constitute an arrest, and the arrest has to be legally justified. It’s fine to ask these questions and discuss how people’s rights are being upheld.

    Pearl-clutching headlines that buy a propaganda narrative hook, line, and sinker are anti-libertarian because the base I ask from libertarians is that they think for themselves.

    1. Sometimes I think they write deliberately stupid stuff here just so people will complain about it in the comments.

      1. Sometimes I think there’s a massive movement to be so blatantly disingenuous that it makes people support the jackbooted thugs. I mean, I’m practically defending federal agents who are probably abusing the Patriot Act because the media can’t have an honest fucking discussion about this.

      2. It’s the only way they can tell if they are getting any attention.

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  22. Nothing the Leftwing MSM is true. unreason included.

    We knew this before the great kungflu hysteria of 2020 and it still applies.

  23. This is the last time I will listen to Reason Roundtable. A real waste of an hour. Agonizing long, Boring, uninspiring. Peter Suderman seems un-knowledgeable about all the Covid statistical and test scams. I think he is probably a shape shifting reptilian.
    Better to spend my time watching Ron Paul’s “Liberty Report” and Vernon Coleman’s daily videos.

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  27. “Sending Secret Police To Do Protester Snatch-n-Grabs Is Bad, Mmmkay?”

    So if someone smashed your front window, and plain-clothes police came and arrested him, that’d be bad?

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  29. south park reference in the title?

    1. Except Reason has turned into Mr. Hankey.

  30. America’s remote needs new batteries, having the national TV stuck on this dumb reality TV show sucks.

    The Trumpy the Clown Show’s plot is twisting from idiocracy to autocracy.

  31. Too bad so manhr “libertarian” commenters are just authoritarians who don’t like taxes. Ve vere only following zee orders, indeed.

  32. You didn’t put this up on the Reason Podcast page! Thought you were taking a week off, until I saw it on the Monday email, which I only saw today, Wednesday.

  33. Secret police is so secret that they operate in plain sight by the hundreds (all wearing the same uniform), allow themselves to be filmed, and have the head of the organization admit that they belong to it.

    Now THAT’s what I call….. secret police?

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