The D.C. Circuit Mulls Trump's Alarmingly Broad Claim of Presidential Immunity From Prosecution
His lawyers say no jury can ever consider charges based on his "official acts" as president, which include his efforts to reverse Joe Biden's election.

After the Senate acquitted Donald Trump of the "high crimes and misdemeanors" alleged in his second impeachment, Mitch McConnell, then the chamber's majority leader, emphasized that the former president still could be held accountable for his reckless behavior before and during the Capitol riot. "We have a criminal justice system in this country," the Kentucky Republican said. "We have civil litigation. And former presidents are not immune from being held accountable by either one."
McConnell was wrong about that, Trump's lawyers argue in a brief they filed on Saturday. They are asking the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit to overrule U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan, who this month rejected Trump's claim that presidential immunity bars Special Counsel Jack Smith from prosecuting him for trying to reverse Joe Biden's victory in the 2020 election. "President Trump has absolute immunity from prosecution for his official acts as President," Trump lawyer John Sauer argues. "The indictment alleges only official acts, so it must be dismissed."
According to Sauer, those "official acts" included Trump's public claims that the election was rigged, his pressure on state and federal officials to accept and act upon those claims, and his campaign's recruitment of "alternate electors" to replace Biden's slates in seven battleground states. Where Smith sees a persistent attack on the democratic process, Sauer sees efforts to protect it—efforts that were consistent with Trump's job description. Those dueling glosses also figure in the question of whether Trump committed the crimes alleged in the federal indictment or in the Georgia racketeering indictment against him, which covers much of the same territory. But here Sauer is arguing that no jury, federal or state, should ever be allowed to consider such charges.
The appeals court has scheduled oral arguments on that question for January 9. The Supreme Court, which last week passed up an opportunity to intervene prior to the D.C. Circuit's decision, will have to weigh in eventually.
Trump maintains that a former president has "absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for actions performed within the 'outer perimeter' of his official responsibility" while he was in office unless he was both impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate for those actions. In other words, Trump claims the process that McConnell presented as an alternative to a Senate conviction is foreclosed without a Senate conviction.
"The Constitution's text, structure, and history do not support that contention," Chutkan wrote in her December 1 decision. "No court—or any other branch of government—has ever accepted it. And this court will not so hold." Whatever limits might apply to prosecution of a sitting president, she said, "former Presidents enjoy no special conditions on their federal criminal liability."
In arguing that Chutkan got it wrong, Sauer leans heavily on Article I, Section 3, Clause 7 of the U.S. Constitution, which says: "Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."
Under that clause, even a president who already has been convicted by the Senate and removed from office can still be criminally prosecuted for the same underlying conduct. As Sauer reads it, however, the clause also implies that only a president who has been convicted by the Senate can face criminal prosecution. In support of that interpretation, he cites Alexander Hamilton's explanation of the clause in Federalist No. 69: "The President of the United States would be liable to be impeached, tried, and, upon conviction of treason, bribery, or other high crimes or misdemeanors, removed from office; and would afterwards be liable to prosecution and punishment in the ordinary course of law."
Sauer says afterwards implies that a former president is subject to "the ordinary course of law" only when he has first been convicted by the Senate. He also cites Federalist No. 77, where Hamilton said the president is "at all times liable to impeachment, trial, dismission from office, incapacity to serve in any other, and to forfeiture of life and estate by subsequent prosecution in the common course of law." Again, Sauer argues that subsequent implies this is the only sequence that the Constitution allows.
If Sauer is right about that, you might wonder, why did Gerald Ford, upon taking office after Richard Nixon's resignation, bother to pardon his predecessor "for all offenses against the United States" he may have committed as president? "Both Ford's pardon and Nixon's acceptance arose from the desire to prevent the former President's potential criminal prosecution," Chutkan wrote, "and both specifically refer to that possibility—without which the pardon would have been largely unnecessary."
Sauer says Chutkan "draws exactly the wrong conclusion" from that episode. "President Ford's issuance of a prophylactic pardon to prevent a potentially bitter, protracted, divisive prosecution of a former President," he says, "reinforces the political and constitutional tradition against prosecuting Presidents." In any case, "the allegations against President Nixon included alleged crimes in private conduct…so the pardon provides no counterexample to official-act immunity."
That distinction seems dubious given the allegations in the proposed articles of impeachment against Nixon, which said he used "the powers of his high office" to subvert investigations of the Watergate break-in and the subsequent cover-up. The articles accused him, for example, of "making or causing to be made false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States" and "interfering or endeavouring to interfere with the conduct of investigations" by the FBI and the Justice Department. Those are similar to the "official acts" that Sauer says form the basis of Trump's indictment.
Conversely, Smith disputes Trump's argument that all of the conduct alleged in the indictment falls into the category of "official acts." For example, he told Chutkan, "allegations that the defendant 'acted purely in his capacity as a candidate for office' by, among other things, 'directing his campaign staff' to further his efforts to overturn the election results do not fall within the outer perimeter of the presidency. That is particularly true with respect to allegations that the defendant conspired with and directed individuals outside the government to facilitate his effort to turn the election in his favor as a candidate."
More broadly, Smith argues that "no legal principle, case, or historical practice supports the conclusion that a former president is immune from federal criminal prosecution for conduct undertaken during his presidency." If Trump were right that "criminal prosecution is available only when preceded by House impeachment and Senate conviction," Smith notes, "it would either completely shield a former president from criminal prosecution for crimes committed while in office but discovered afterwards or require that Congress initiate impeachment proceedings against a former president," which would "empower Congress to control the core executive act of prosecution through the political impeachment process."
That requirement also would contradict Trump's position after his second impeachment, when he said the Senate could not try him once he had left office. McConnell agreed with that position, which is why he held out criminal prosecution as an alternative.
In his Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, Smith notes, Justice Joseph Story assumed that an impeached official could face criminal prosecution even if he were acquitted by the Senate. The Constitution draws a distinction between a Senate trial and a trial "in the common tribunals of justice," Story said, to ensure that "a second trial for the same offence could be had, either after an acquittal, or a conviction in the court of impeachments." If that qualified as double jeopardy, he said, "the grossest official offenders might escape without any substantial punishment, even for crimes, which would subject their fellow citizens to capital punishment."
In the 1982 case Nixon v. Fitzgerald, which involved a whistleblower who sued Nixon for firing him from his job as a civilian analyst with the U.S. Air Force, the Supreme Court narrowly held that the president "is entitled to absolute immunity from damages liability predicated on his official acts." Such immunity, Justice Lewis Powell said in the majority opinion, is "a functionally mandated incident of the President's unique office, rooted in the constitutional tradition of the separation of powers and supported by our history."
That decision, however, did not resolve the question of whether a former president is immune from criminal liability for his official acts. Powell contrasted a "merely private suit for damages based on a President's official acts" with "the public interest in an ongoing criminal prosecution," where "the exercise of jurisdiction has been held warranted." He noted that the Court had "recognized before that there is a lesser public interest in actions for civil damages than, for example, in criminal prosecutions."
Chief Justice Warren Burger drew the same distinction in his concurring opinion. "The dissents are wide of the mark to the extent that they imply that the Court today recognizes sweeping immunity for a President for all acts," he wrote. "The Court does no such thing. The immunity is limited to civil damages claims."
As Sauer sees it, the fact that federal courts have never had to squarely address the immunity question raised by Trump's prosecution is telling. "During the 234 years from 1789 to 2023, no current or former President had ever been criminally prosecuted for official acts," he writes. "The 234-year tradition of not prosecuting Presidents for official acts—despite ample motive and opportunity to do so—provides powerful evidence that the power to do so does not exist."
Sauer warns that "the indictment of President Trump threatens to launch cycles of recrimination and politically motivated prosecution that will plague our Nation for many decades to come and stands likely to shatter the very bedrock of our Republic—the confidence of American citizens in an independent judicial system." That threat, he says, comes not just from federal cases like this one but also from local prosecutors across the country who might bring charges against a former president for partisan reasons—charges that would be adjudicated by a "possibly hostile judiciary."
The only way to guard against that danger, Sauer argues, is to give former presidents complete immunity from criminal prosecution based on their "official acts" unless they were convicted and removed from office by the Senate. If they resign before that happens, lose reelection, or choose not to run again, or if their criminal conduct does not come to light until after they leave office, they are in the clear, no matter how egregious their behavior.
"The implications of the defendant's unbounded immunity theory are startling," Smith writes. "It would grant absolute immunity from criminal prosecution to a president who accepts a bribe in exchange for a lucrative government contract for a family member; a president who instructs his FBI Director to plant incriminating evidence on a political enemy; a president who orders the National Guard to murder his most prominent critics; or a president who sells nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary. After all, in each of these scenarios, the president could assert that he was simply executing the laws; or communicating with the Department of Justice; or discharging his powers as commander-in-chief; or engaging in foreign diplomacy—and his felonious purposes and motives, as the defendant repeatedly insists, would be completely irrelevant and could never even be aired at trial."
The four dissenters in Fitzgerald warned that "attaching absolute immunity to the Office of the President, rather than to particular activities that the President might perform, places the President above the law," reverting to "the old notion that the King can do no wrong." Not so, the majority responded: The decision was limited to a "private suit for damages." If the Supreme Court decides that immunity also extends to criminal prosecution, the dissenters' hyperbole will prove prophetic.
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Fuck Joe Biden
Fuck Joe Biden.
Fuck Joe Biden and his obviously stolen election.
Fuck the entire Biden bloodline other than the stripper's whelp.
To see how bizarre Trump’s immunity claims are ask the same question as Jim Acosta: “If presidents have absolute immunity, why did Ford ever pardon Nixon?”
To move the country on from Nixon's issues and attempt to avoid the inevitable legal circuses.
Jim Acosta is a ridiculous jackass, as is anyone who quotes him unless for mockery purposes.
If only Nixon had abused FISA to spy like Joe and Obama.
Chuck Colson of Watergate fame was sentenced to prison for possessing a single FBI file on a political rival.
What's the penalty for a President employing the Director of the FBI, the Deputy Director of the FBI, the Chief of the Counterespionage Section of the FBI, the Director of the CIA, the Director of National Intelligence, and members of the Justice Department and the State Department to gather dirt on members of the opposition political party in an effort to ensure his former Secretary of State wins the Presidency (and when that failed pressure a probe after GOP victory)?
Odd how Watergate, the scandal of the century at the time and resulting in the resignation of the Leader of the Free World, did not deter a Democrat President whatsoever.
In the least.
If only John Dean had used active duty CIA and FBI people to spy on Nixon’s political opponents instead of the retired Hunt and Liddy.
But this isn’t a scandal about the corruption of Democrats or DOJ because shut up bot. It won’t become a shocking scandal impacting democracy and undermining the rule of law until the moment a Republican copies it.
"To see how bizarre Trump’s immunity claims are ask the same question as Jim Acosta: “If presidents have absolute immunity, why did Ford ever pardon Nixon?”..."
To see how stupid Kafantaris lefty whinings are, you need only read the above.
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled shitpile.
What a compelling counter argument.
As compelling as anything blind partisan Acosta has to say.
If Watergate had happened today, would there have even been a scandal?
I posit that there wouldn't be one.
Isn't that a more pressing issue?
Obama basically did the Watergate thing without most of the media caring.
You mean actively onboard don't you. Indifference would be one thing this was full media defense for the weaponolization if the State for Democrats.
Fuck Joe Biden, and fuck the lies of the Left.
Fuck Sullum too.
Sullum has actively negative credibility on any topic involving Trump.
It's like J. Jonas Jameson reporting on Spiderman.
I’m suspecting that Hunter Biden and any of his siblings are the products of artificial insemination, because no one would want to fuck Joe Biden.
Not even his daughter according to her diary.
Well, sure, but after numerous forced sessions, can you blame her?
I've asked this before without a reply, but does anyone have a link regarding where in the diary Biden's daughter said her father molested her?
Enjoy fucking Joe Biden!
Trump will be re-elected.
Will they move the Oval Office to prison or put bars in the White House windows?
More of your drunken delusions? I look forward to Trump’s probable election. And should you liver not fail before his inauguration in 2025, I also look forward to you exquisite tears of agony.
Maybe he can share a cell with Hunter!
Poor sarc.
I’m not the one who will cry when Trump is convicted. Nor will I cheer when Hunter is convicted.
Well this is too good to not bookmark.
Thanks for this. A Christmas gift for those who point out your defense of democrats and hate of Trump.
Cheers buddy.
"His lawyers say no jury can ever consider charges based on his "official acts" as president..." (Sub-title to the article).
Almost a century after the Nuremberg Trials... This kind of shit is STILL in play?
What do you mean, Shillsy? Which of Trump's official acts as President do you think equate to the charges prosecuted at Nuremberg?
The crimes charged before the Nuremberg courts were crimes against peace, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and conspiracy to commit any of the foregoing crimes.
What did Trump do that equates?
Rapproachment with North Korea?
Negotiated a withdrawal with the Taliban?
The Abraham Accords?
The Serbia/Kosovo peace deal?
The USMCA?
Being mean to Don Lemon on Twitter?
Calling for investigation into obvious electoral fraud using the same claims and methods as the Democrats have for the last three decades?
To quote your crazy ass, inquiring minds want to know dammit.
How about cunt-spiring to replace democracy with mobocracy?
Der TrumpfenFuhrer ***IS*** responsible for agitating for democracy to be replaced by mobocracy!
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It really should immediately make us think of Krystallnacht. Hitler and the NAZIs set up for this by constantly blaming Jews for all things bad. Jew-haters will be Jew-haters, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Hitler was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump's Big Lie and Hitler's: Is this how America's slide into totalitarianism begins?
The above is mostly strictly factual, with very little editorializing. When I post it, the FACTS never get refuted… I only get called names. But what do you expect from morally, ethically, spiritually, and intellectually bankrupt Trumpturds?
Totalitarians want to turn GOP into GOD (Grand Old Dicktatorshit).
Your Big Lie concept is actually a Nazi party theory used to attack the Jews and was first described by Adolph Hitler in Mein Kampf.
Your ancient and outdated CNN article was actually refuted by CNN itself in subsequent years.
For a troll you sure are lazy.
Time to bookmark newer articles.
So by me discussing the evils of the Big Lie, I am a Big Liar?
Trump Kept Hitler Speeches ‘In a Cabinet By His Bed,’ Said Ex-Wife Ivana Trump in Resurfaced Interview
Jamie FreveleDec 18th, 2023, 10:17 am
https://www.mediaite.com/trump/ivana-trump-revealed-in-1990-vanity-fair-interview-that-her-ex-kept-hitler-speeches-in-a-cabinet-by-his-bed/
Discussing evil makes one evil, then, right, evil bitch? YOUR Perfect Evil, for example, must NOT be openly discussed!!! It is EVIL to cast light upon the DARK AND THE DARKNESS… The evil ways of evil-doers, right, right-wing wrong-nut-slut? Do NOT let people know about evil, or YOU will be evil! (So say the evil nut-sluts, that is.)
Hey wait a minute! YOU just tried to show readers that I, SQRLSY One, am “evil” in the eyes of Mammary-Necrophilia-Farter-Fuhrer!!! You just tried to shine your so-called “light”!
YOU JUST ASSIMILATED MY “EVIL” WAYS!!! I ASSIMILATE YOU!!! BWAH-HA-HA!!!!
https://biblehub.com/luke/11-35.htm
New Living Translation
Make sure that the light you think you have is not actually darkness.
You pathetic hack. You couldn't even let me take Christmas off. 🙁
So here it is for about the dozenth time. The casual admission that immediately shreds SQRLSY's credibility as an enemy of "election denial" a.k.a. "the Big Lie" and its poisonous effects on the very soul of our nation.
"I don’t recall any “HillaryPanzees gone apeshit” and saying “kill him with his own gun”? Got any cites on that?"
That's SQRLSY's pathetic attempt to explain why he wasn't bothered by his own party's election denial. You know, THE defining story of American politics beginning in Nov. 2016. When Democrats refused to admit Hillary really was that bad, and really did lose fair and square to a handpicked opponent.
Remember how ridiculous things got? The MSM's descent into bombshell tipping point walls closing in beginning of the end self-parody? The pee tape rumors? The idea that POTUS was a 3-decade Russian intel asset? They even drafted Robert "I'm Concerned About Iraq's WMDs" Mueller to prove their bad-spy-novel fantasies. He failed, of course, but still became a rockstar to millions of Democratic election deniers.
Because the Big Lie was too comforting. What was the alternative? Admit nominating Hillary was a mistake? No. Democrats largely proved incapable of such intellectual maturity. Hillary didn't actually lose, you see. She was robbed! RUSSIA HACKED THE ELECTION!!!!!!!
It was during this environment of relentless Democratic election denial that a deranged progressive gunman named James Hodgkinson made headlines. He did something far more depraved than put his feet up on Nancy Pelosi's desk. He tried to massacre Congressional Republicans at a baseball practice.
And this clear-cut example of domestic terrorism, during an era of widespread election denial, left so little impact on SQRLSY that he forgot it happened. He thought his own side was so well behaved that not only did they never try to kill anyone, they would never even threaten as much!
I have to admit, nobody curb stomps Shillsy like Sandra.
So Trump's fascism is justified by Hillary's fascism or supposed fascism! THIS is the VERY BEST offerings towards "True Progress" that we'll get from the True Trump Fascists any time soon! THANKS for the clarifications!
It is called payback.
Surely you have heard of the concept.
"It is called payback."
AKA endless cycles of violence! Of hate, self-righteous tribalism, and selfish, smug self-adoration! Only EVIL people believe in these things!
I’m guessing it trotted out Tim the Enchanter after you crushed it. We should have it put down.
No, but it was some other copypasta shit just the same.
I have to admit, nobody curb stomps Shillsy like Sandra.
Well, she did give him a Texas-sized helping of his favorite dish.
"You pathetic hack. You couldn’t even let me take Christmas off..."
As a steaming pile of TDS-addled shit, you could well have taken Christmas off. And then fucked off and died.
1. Democracy IS mobocracy. How do you not understand this?
2. You realize it was the Nazi’s who accused the Jews of the “Big Lie”, right? So by your using this phraseology, you’re actually copying Hitler and the Nazi’s.
DesigNate is repeating my "SQRLSY One" Big, EVIL lies! Therefor, DesigNate is a Big, EVIL Liar!
(Wow, am I not THEEEEE Very Smartest MotherFucking GENIUS in the WORLD, for having fingered THAT out?)
"1. Democracy IS mobocracy."
In one system, votes are counted honestly. In the other system, people throw violent temper tantrums, for "choosing" the next Dicktator, and "honestly counting the votes"? The DicktatorShit AND its lawyers blow boogers and BIG FAT LIES (in court even!) all over THAT concept!
Now... Can YOU finger out, WHICH one is which? Try REALLY hard, now, please!
Which of Trump’s official acts as President do you think equate to the charges prosecuted at Nuremberg?
Why are you even bothering to converse with something that modern AI could beat? The Squirrel Shits are like a "Small Language Model" system.
It doesn't know the answer to your question. It only knows "reeeeeesistance!"
And... Would (will) the SAME be true of Biden's “official acts” as president, no matter HOW odious they may be? Are we now ruled by Infallible Emperors?
"I’m not the one who will cry when Trump is convicted. Nor will I cheer when Hunter is convicted."
Yes, well we all knew that. Too many cups of holiday cheer and you gave the game away, huh?
Of course you won’t cheer if Hunter is convicted. He’s an elite democrat and you’re their lackey.
You’re a little bitch, and a total pussy.
Followed shortly by his assassination.
But, he said, "they're not here to hurt me"?
It’s as if Trump is channeling Cartman. “Respect mah athoritah!”
Looks like Sarckles got in the holiday spirts again by the caseload.
Since he's off the wagon and back to being a drunken troll I guess I can take the gloves off again.
I never put them back on. Not since he threatened me. I just wish he would have the guts to make good on his pathetic threats.
It’s as if you’re channeling Otis the town drunk every day.
Merry Christmas you drunk piece of shit pussy.
You sneak a blunt intrument into the ring and hit him with it, he's going to hit back with a blunt instrument.
Sounds like a reasonable position. It falls on Congress to impeach and try the President if he commits wrongdoing.
There obviously exists some immunity there, but it also is clearly not absolute. The president can't murder his ex-wife and then claim executive privilege. However, if he does it DC or a US territory, he can just issue a pardon for himself right after doing it.
SCOTUS actually does need to take this up because we really should have some idea of what qualifies as official conduct by the President, to hash out where the limit is. Too many of the lower courts are punting and saying, "We don't know what the limit is but we know this is a crime," relying on a gray area to get their desired outcome.
It is weird. During this investigation, Jack Smith has used friendly judges to attempt to undermine defendants rights. He has removed legal and executive privileges. He tried bribing one of the lawyers working for the defense. He has issued broad based subpeonas including all responses of thumbs up to a Twitter account. All if these prosecutorial abuses. Sullum doesn't raise a peep.
But a defendant petitions the court seeking immunity and it is someone Sullum hates, it isnat the fore front.
I guess some state abuses are more equal than other state abuses.
But, that's (D)ifferent.
I think it's more than D. This writer is really weirdly demented over Trump. Remarkable, personal, visceral hatred that clouds everything he sees.
I once accused Brown of seeing the whole world through whore colored classes. This dude is even worse with his TDS goggles. He can't even see the forest for the Trumps.
You're both right, Sullum is really weirdly demented over Trump. He does have a remarkable, personal, visceral hatred that clouds everything he sees. He also becomes remarkably hypocritical.
But he gets to publish his intellectually dishonest rants here because Koch/KMW brand journalism is all about protecting the Democratic Party.
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
Go fuck yourself with Tim's wand, dip.
There's Shillsy's white flag "Tim" shitpost, I was expecting.
Sullum is a loathsome piece of shit. His TDS just showcases this.
"But he gets to publish his intellectually dishonest rants here because Koch/KMW brand journalism is all about protecting the Democratic Party."
It's difficult to reach any other conclusion. And that's the problem. Reason could could put a Lincoln Project link up there next to Volokh and the content would be as "libertarian" as Sullum's rants.
Sullum is absolutely seriously retardedly demented over Trump. It's not worth reading a single word he says on the topic because he's just completely around the bend here.
Sullum is a Marxist shill.
"It is weird. During this investigation, Jack Smith has ..."
It is weird that everything you listed after "Jack Smith has" is a grossly inaccurate description of his actions, except perhaps the "broad based subpoenas". And none of it is prosecutorial abuse.
It's really weird that you would think such crazy things.
"But a defendant petitions the court seeking immunity"
Right, why would anyone think that absolute immunity for any crimes perpetrated by a former President is a bad idea? Except for all those rubes who believe in the rule of law and equal treatment under the law, of course. Those fools probably think that dictators are a bad idea, too. Idiots.
"grossly inaccurate description of his actions"
Seemed right on the money to me. Why don't you go flipping through your ActBlue talking-points pdfs and rustle up an explanation as to how Jesse is wrong?
Simply calling names and going "nuh-uh" isn't really earning your fifty-cents.
I'm not wrong. Each thing is documented. It is also documented that Smith was reprimanded by the USSC 0-8 in an earlier prosecution.
Leftists rely on ignorance and lies.
If you can't be bothered to back up your allegations, why should anyone else?
Lol. God the lefties here are both ignorant and pathetic.
Nelson, stay at wapo with the other idiots.
“It is weird. During this investigation, Jack Smith has …”
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled shit-pile.
The Libertarian case for unfettered prosecutions!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Judicial jusjitsu!
So they want to attack Trump for using the office of the President to 'overthrow the election' - by alleging the 'official acts' he took. But if they were official acts they would be legal.
If they were *personal acts* then the severity of an old man crying about the results of the election severely damages their argument that he was a real 'danger to our democracy'.
Is Sullum coming around to the idea that the wallz might possibly, maybe, might not be clozing in?
Presidential immunity from election suspicion?
Is Hillary going to need that too?
The left is doing re-runs of the Reichstag Fire and it won't be a surprise at all if they just claim ultimate authority/power to protect cheating their democracy ... JUST LIKE HITLER DID ... Heck; Colorado already did it.
The very notion of making election suspicion a crime is just adding more piles of proof to their already stack of evidence of election fraud.
Trump doesn't need to be president to excuse his claim the election was stolen. Claims should be investigated thoroughly with honor not turned into a witch-hunting game. I don't think citizens realize just how far down the [Na]tional So[zi]alist path the left has taken this nation.
Had the statute of limitations on Gore expired yet?
"The very notion of making election suspicion a crime is just adding more piles of proof to their already stack of evidence of election fraud."
Even the precedent of half the country thinking the election was stolen, is bad.
If someone thinks it wasn't stolen, they should be eager to set this to rest. If the win is legitimate you welcome every audit and investigation to legitimize it even further and drive the win home.
The resistance to anyone who questions the results, through disingenuous means like lawfare, gaslighting, censorship, and demonizing, indicates is that the election really WAS stolen.
"Half the country", lol. Nearly half the votes does not equal "half the country". More like a third.
Every court case has been adjudicated under the law, every legal recount, review and audit has been performed, and still no evidence of any kind of fraud or mistake has been found which could have even possibly changed the result of the election: Trump's still a loser. You want more evidence? Bring it on.
You know this isn't about "election suspicion". It is about election losing. Trump has always been afraid of losing: even when he won in 2016 he had claimed in advance that there would be fraud if he lost, and he did the same thing in 2020 (before the election). He sees fraud before it occurs, so obviously he can see fraud which doesn't exist.
Nov. 5, 2020
Joe Biden: "We have put together I think the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.”
To the extent this is a serious comment, I offer you Trump's "Revolutionary War airports" claim in response.
To the extent this is a serious comment, I offer you, "how to establish a distinction between an obvious miss-conception and a faulty teleprompter and accidentally bragging it's how Obama won his second term."
So, you're position is that 17% of the population moves us from "Eh, no big deal." to "Existential emergency!".
Don't be stupid. A third, a half, it really makes little difference: If any significant fraction of the population become genuinely convinced that the government is illegitimate, then the government can't rule except by open force, which will cause the illegitimacy to snowball.
Democrats have been operating on the theory that they don't need to convince anybody, they just need to prevail procedurally. It doesn't seem to enter their heads that the procedures actually mattering is dependent on almost everybody being willing to assume they're legit, and if that goes away, all you've got left is force, and the government doesn't HAVE enough force to rule a country where tens of percent of the population no longer obey them unless personally threatened.
The claim to be backed by "half the country" (when even the number of voters was less than that) is a pathetic appeal to legitimacy. That the numbers only add up to about a third of the country makes it even more pathetic. Don't get me wrong, half the voters is a significant number and can be sufficient to seize power, but it does not allow Trump's loyal subjects to claim "half the country" agrees with them--and that's what they want: to feel like they're the "normal" people, when they're really the ones following the lunatic orange supremacist down the drain.
You are aware what the term, "flood the zone with shit" means, and who said it, right? The doubt many people have over the elections has been engineered as part of a deliberate plan to confuse, disorient and capitalize on that. If the media and the government cannot be trusted, who can lead us out of this mess? Only a strong man leader, not afraid to "break the rules" lie to us directly without shame...
If a significant number of people now doubt the systems we use to elect our government--in significant part because people like you and Steve Bannon have plied them with disorienting propaganda designed to do exactly that--the solution is not to abandon the voting procedures those people now think are illegitimate. The solution is to show people that they work they way they are supposed to; that the rule of law can be bent under pressure but cannot be broken.
Yet no-one doubts mail-in voting ran completely contrast to in-person no matter how much you want to call it "engineered as part of a deliberate plan to confuse". The only "engineering" going on is by the left constantly trying to confuse the *reality* clear down to prosecuting those who take notice.
Another ... Evidence? I see no evidence?
Do tell us what live TV Trump vote count deletes were all about. Do tell us where to find actual real IP logs that counter Mr. Pillows. Do tell us why Atlanta found over 1,000 uncounted votes on first count versus recount. Do tell us how you justify mail-in contrasting in-person by a 90%+ difference in some areas when the whole excuse to enact mail-in was that it correlated with in-person. Do tell us how executive fiat has authority to change election law.
A proclamation of "I see no evidence" doesn't make that evidence disappear and prosecuting those who bring those items to attention doesn't equal "the evidence doesn't exist". All it really says is a Cover-Up.
Putting all of that in respective comparison to Hillaries YEARS of investigative hearings about F'En Facebook Ads supposedly stealing her election and the party-bias of these election fraud claims is undeniable. Valid concern from the Right yields ignorance and BS concern from the Left yields years of investigation and prosecution.
I did not claim there had been no election fraud. I said there was, "no evidence of any kind of fraud or mistake has been found which could have even possibly changed the result of the election".
The people who have to "see the evidence" (and the only ones you should be bothering to convince) are those who can do something about it: the courts, prosecutors and lawyers. And yet, nearly every court case brought by Trump's best hand-picked lawyers which purported to present that evidence in the proper fora was exposed as half-assed, deceptive, incoherent, irrelevant, unconvincing, flawed, unsound or superficial. What was Trump's final score? One for 62?
I don't know if those claims you've listed have already been presented to the courts during the litigated election fraud cases, but if not, why not? What are you saving it for? Propaganda purposes?
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all.
Here's the interesting thing, though: the President has the absolute power to issue a blanket pardon on himself for all offenses real or perceived during his time in office. We've made it a persistent habit not to prosecute former presidents, even LBJ and Nixon, even though they have absolute power to make themselves immune to such prosecution as they leave office.
If we decide that the gloves are completely off and we're prosecuting presidents for acts taken while in the office, every President can just finish out his term by issuing a broad slate of pardons for himself and his out-going administration. It's been useful for the perception of legitimacy to not do this, and to hold disagreements as merely political. I suspect, if Trump had not been interested in running again, we might have continued that policy as a country. Once he demonstrated broad support for re-election, it suddenly became imperative to hold him accountable for crimes.
Last I checked, there is no statute of limitations on murder. If any US or New Mexico state attorney gets ideas, they could always bring charges for the execution of Al-Awlaki, if the President does not enjoy executive immunity. This is a very risky can of worms to open.
There clearly has to exist some degree of executive immunity, otherwise you could charge a President with unjust enrichment if, say, Trump just decides to stay at his own golf-club while on a work trip, or if a President pushes Net Neutrality and then gets paid to make a documentary for Netflix (as if there's a quid-pro-quo there).
Well said.
Campaigning is not an "official act".
The Supreme Court has acknowledged immunity for civil suits, but declined to do so for all potential court proceedings. The current Court could decide otherwise, but you'd think by now that Trump would not be able to count on the conservative justices to dance to his tune. We shall see.
The Supreme Court has acknowledged immunity for civil suits, but declined to do so for all potential court proceeding.
The Supreme Court has never been asked to weigh in on criminal matters involving the President. I don’t know if you’ve heard, but this unprecedented territory.
Isn't that what I just said?
The Constitution draws a distinction between a Senate trial and a trial "in the common tribunals of justice," Story said, to ensure that "a second trial for the same offence could be had, either after an acquittal, or a conviction in the court of impeachments." If that qualified as double jeopardy, he said, "the grossest official offenders might escape without any substantial punishment, even for crimes, which would subject their fellow citizens to capital punishment."
See, again, this isn't a reasonable consideration. It's always problematic when you're trying to make laws to make sure we have to get the grossest offenders. "We need this power to get the really, really bad guys," and it always ends up being used on low level drug dealers.
Guess what? If the President pardons himself, there's Jack Smith you can do about it. The President has the absolute power to get away with any federal crime you can name, if his intention is to commit a crime. So you can't just cry about what a shame it is that the President could get away with this, it's built into the constitution. This is a political issue, not a judicial one. You win by convincing people you're right and making sure the worst criminals can't become President in the first place.
Trump did not pardon himself.
His lawyers say no jury can ever consider charges based on his "official acts" as president, which include his efforts to reverse Joe Biden's election.
You may disagree with his motivations, you may disagree with his reasoning, but Trump did not exceed the powers granted to him by the Constitution in "his efforts to reverse Joe Biden's election".
But, hey, prove me wrong by showing instances where he exceeded his powers.
By engaging in an insurrection, perhaps?
That’s your framing of what happened. My framing is that held a protest near the capitol and people broke out into a riot over a heated issue, and that he was simply exercising his 1st Amendment rights.
It's not my framing: it is the Colorado Supreme Court's framing. They affirmed the lower court's finding that Trump had engaged in an insurrection. Take it up with them.
What specifically constitutes "engaging in an insurrection" according to you?
Why are you asking me? That is for the courts to decide, since it is a phrase contained in the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.
Nope.
1) It ( defining insurrection) is not up to the “ courts to decide.” It’s up to congress. See S5. S3 isn’t self-executing.
2) The same legal challenge, supra, has been rejected by, so far, every other court to hear it; that you cite what CO did to ground your argument that Trump exceeded his authority is akin to citing flat Earthers on theirs.
There was no insurrection.
Take it up with the CO Supreme Court.
By engaging in an insurrection, perhaps?
Your premise is false. Now, fuck off.
The only people "alarmed" by Trump and his winning legal arguments, policy platform and polling data are Sullum and others with terminal cases of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Let's Go Brandon.
Which legal arguments has he won?
It might also be interesting to tally the number of civil court cases Trump has won, lost and settled. He has a reputation for suing lots of people (and not paying his lawyers), but he doesn't have a reputation for success.
I'd honestly be more excited about these efforts to establish legal precedent for putting Presidents in jail, if I thought it would go both ways.
Shit, even Dem officials in Illinois get sent to prison once in a while.
",,.which include his efforts to reverse Joe Biden's election."
We know Sullum is a TDS-addled slimy pile of shit who should get fucked by a running. rusty chainsaw and die as a result, but let's give the steaming pile of shit a chance:
What, specifically, would those "efforts" be, you fucking ignoramus?
Merry Christmas, ya filthy animals!
🙂
So what do you call this website full of crude, incoherent, racist, misogynistic and homophobic comments?
The Aristocrats!Reason.So what do you call this website full of crude, incoherent, racist, misogynistic and homophobic comments?
Freedom?
Enough about shrike.
Welcome to America, where my right to tell you to gargle your own balls remains unabridged. Feel free to fuck off at your earliest convenience, you miserable scold.
Whaddya want for nuthin?
This prosecution of Trump is lining up many dangerous precedents for both prosecution and now defense of presidents. I'm very uncomfortable with Trump's lawyers' defense here. Trump and any other president should be liable for presidential crimes otherwise, the office can be abused similar to the abuse allowed by qualified immunity of police as long as they have a senate majority. Presidential immunity has been the de facto situation since the founding, but let's not make it official.
Having said that, I think Trump should be acquitted of these charges because it is absolutely believable that he thought he won the election given his history of delusional narcissism.
And once we establish this liability of presidents, let Bush and Obama be the first brought to trial for their crimes.
Impeachment is the proper avenue in these cases. Pelosi sought that route twice.
I disagree. Impeachment is transparently political. To make criminal prosecution (officially) subject to political decision seems ridiculous.
Should we let any possible prosecution of Biden on corruption be dependent on approval of the senate?
Oh! Impeachment is transparently political.. guess what -
The current litigations are transparently political.
I know it. I'm thinking about the precedent this would set. I think the current and future presidents should be liable for their crimes.
I'm not a Trump supporter, however it is extremely obvious that there is a colossal double standard. While Trump was a mediocre president, he has been and currently is being unfairly attacked.
Personally, I would like to see both of the Old Geezers leave politics and retire. I'm tired of Trump's narcissism and tired of the complete joke called Biden. Both are probably corrupt, but one is loud and brash and the other is sneaky and underhanded.
If push came to shove, Trump is less of a threat for the simple fact that the Corporate media would work to expose (or create out of whole cloth) anything that Trump attempted to do that was questionable (or even not questionable, but spin it to be something that it is not).
Counter this with the Corporate Media's dogged work to coverup, obfuscate, and redirect in their role as Democrat Party Sycophants. While I despise Trump, have never, and will never cast a vote for him. My opinion of Biden sinks much, much lower. The Biden joke is a stumbling disaster that embodies the worst of what is wrong in Washington DC.
Trump is not being "unfairly" attacked. If anyone else did what he's accused of doing, they would (and should) also be prosecuted and sued, as he is.
I agree, neither he nor Biden should be president, but Biden was elected in 2020, just as Trump was in 2016.
Does "Corporate media" include Fox, the Wall Street Journal, OANN, Breitbart and the Daily Wire? I don't think there's any shortage of non-MSM media out there, if you don't trust the traditional media.
Trump continues to piss off the kind of people I like seeing pissed off. He has my vote in 2024 for that alone.
I don't care about the rest of the stuff. The nation survived 8 years of Obama and 8 years of Bush Jr. If the nation can survive those two it can survive 4 more years for Trump.
That's the spirit! Don't bother me with the facts, my mind's made up.
I'm pretty sure the DC circuit will deny immunity not because they have any legal basis to do so but because it is a demonstrably politicized court. It also appears that they will expedite the process so Smith and Chutkan can continue on a fast track to convict Trump during the presidential election. The Supreme Court will ultimately rule on the merits. I have no idea what conclusion they will reach because because the entire prosecution is based on unprecedented novel interpretation of ancient arcane law. Where they might go beyond the narrow question of immunity is anybody's guess.
The Supreme Court will ultimately rule on the merits. I have no idea what conclusion they will reach because because the entire prosecution is based on unprecedented novel interpretation of ancient arcane law. Where they might go beyond the narrow question of immunity is anybody’s guess.
That, by itself, makes these prosecutions unethical.
It is "politicized" only because Trump told you it was. And the only "evidence" is that it doesn't rule in Trump's favor.
I trust the integrity of the legal system a lot more than I trust Trump and his sycophants, so unless you can point to convincing evidence of the court system's corruption, I will not be agreeing with you.
Sullum never fails to show his true colors (hence, the will of those who fund him) when it concerns anything to do with potential 2020 election fraud or Trump. Answers are 1) There wasn’t a shred of fraud and 2) Trump is absolutely guilty of whatever he is accused of. Sometimes he tries to disguise his true agenda by writing reasonable libertarian-flavored articles on other subjects but if reasonable questions are raised about the 2020 election or Trump’s guilt, his answers are totally predictable.
The two answers you list are absolutely correct. The only fraud has been committed by the Orange One to instigate a bloodless coup to cancel the peaceful transfer of power.
There is always electoral fraud in some shape or form--in every election. Anyone who claims otherwise is ignorant (or is just lazy). What there isn't a shred of evidence for is the claim that there was sufficient fraud to change the results of the election.
Guilt can only be determined in a court of law. Trump is trying to postpone every one of his trials until after 2024 precisely so that he cannot be found guilty before the election. Many people think Trump will be found guilty (beyond a reasonable doubt) on at least some of the charges against him, and I agree with them. The evidence we have seen so far is very strong, and Trump is a conspicuously corrupt person (and a rapist, by the way).
It is pretty normal, and indeed useful, for litigants to make overly broad claims in motions. This allows courts to define the boundaries of an issue in a "cookie-cutter" fashion, granting some claims in whole or in part and rejecting others. (Consider that if a litigant fails to step over a line, then courts have no authority to define where that line is.) Much ado about nothing.