Trump Says Legislators Committed Treason by Noting That Soldiers Are Not Obligated To Obey Unlawful Orders
The president's authoritarian response to a video posted by six members of Congress, who he says "should be arrested and put on trial," validates their concerns.
In a video message posted this week, six Democratic legislators with military or intelligence backgrounds remind members of the armed forces that they are not obligated to follow unlawful orders. That point is legally uncontroversial. It is also freshly relevant in light of the various questionable ways in which President Donald Trump has deployed the military—especially his summary executions of suspected drug smugglers in the Caribbean and eastern Pacific.
Trump's characteristically over-the-top reaction to the video—which described its production as "SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR, punishable by DEATH!"—confirms the importance of remembering that soldiers and other public servants have a duty higher than obedience to the president's whims. Trump's response also highlighted his tendency to portray criticism of him as a state crime, which reflects his disregard for freedom of speech as well as his narcissism.
The video features Sen. Elissa Slotkin (D–Mich.), a former CIA officer; Sen. Mark Kelly (D–Ariz.), a former astronaut and U.S. Navy aviator; Rep. Chris Deluzio (D–Pa.), also a former naval officer; Rep. Maggie Goodlander (D–N.H.), a former intelligence officer in the U.S. Navy Reserve; Rep. Chrissy Houlahan (D–Pa.), a former Air Force officer; and Rep. Jason Crow (D–Colo.), a former Army Ranger. They mention those backgrounds while delivering a simple message to "members of the military" and "the intelligence community" who "take risks each day to keep Americans safe": "Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders."
The video criticizes the Trump administration for "pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens," saying: "We know you are under enormous stress and pressure right now. Americans trust their military, but that trust is at risk."
The legislators note that "like us, you all swore an oath to protect and defend [the] Constitution." They add that "no one has to carry out orders that violate the law or our Constitution." Although "we know this is hard," they say, "your vigilance is critical," and "we have your back."
The video does not get into specifics. But Trump's domestic military deployments, including his use of National Guard troops and Marines, are legally controversial and create situations in which service members might have to decide whether they should follow orders that violate the Fourth Amendment or the First Amendment. And his unprecedented policy of blowing up boats believed to be carrying illegal drugs, which so far has killed 83 people in 21 attacks, is blatantly at odds with longstanding principles of criminal justice and the traditional military distinction between civilians and combatants.
After that campaign began on September 2, Georgetown University law professor Marty Lederman noted that the first strike "appears to have violated several legal prohibitions," including homicide provisions of federal law and the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). "Regardless of which laws might have been broken," Lederman wrote, "what's more alarming, and of greater long-term concern, is that U.S. military personnel crossed a fundamental line the Department of Defense has been resolutely committed to upholding for many decades—namely, that (except in rare and extreme circumstances not present here) the military must not use lethal force against civilians, even if they are alleged, or even known, to be violating the law."
Given the obvious problems with deciding to kill criminal suspects in cold blood instead of intercepting and arresting them, Lederman wondered: "Why did military personnel agree to such a dubious order?" He considered several possible explanations, each of which he viewed as problematic or unsatisfying. But as far as the allegedly "SEDITIOUS" video is concerned, the important point is that Lederman, for good reason, took it for granted that military personnel had a choice.
"As the Judge Advocate General Handbook explains, subordinates in the military chain of command must presume, in the ordinary course, that orders of superiors in the lawful chain-of-command are themselves lawful," Lederman wrote. "Even so, in a 'rare' case where 'an order seems unlawful,' the subordinate should 'not carry it out right away, but [should] not ignore it either.' She should, instead, 'immediately and respectfully seek clarification of that order'; and if, after receiving a clarification (or after being informed that no clarification is forthcoming), a reasonable person 'would recognize the wrongfulness of the act or order, even in light of a soldier's general duty to obey, then the order is "manifestly illegal," and soldiers have a duty to disobey it.'"
In other words, military personnel not only "can refuse illegal orders"; they have an obligation to do so. Lederman also cited The Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations, which similarly recognizes an exception to the general rule that "an order requiring the performance of a military duty to act may be inferred to be lawful, and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate." The handbook says that inference "does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime." The first example it offers—"an order directing the murder of a civilian [or] a noncombatant"—is clearly relevant to Trump's bloodthirsty anti-drug strategy.
Trump has tried to justify that strategy in various ways: by conflating drug smuggling with violent aggression, by describing the men whose deaths he has ordered as members of "foreign terrorist organizations," by asserting a "noninternational armed conflict," and by preposterously claiming that "we save 25,000 lives" with each boat that is destroyed (which would add up to more than half a million deaths supposedly prevented so far). These arguments have been widely rejected by experts on the law of war.
Trump's policy is "so manifestly unlawful that in any other administration, including Trump's first, if anyone had even dared to propose it, virtually any and every attorney who got wind of it, across the government—and many non-lawyer officials, too—would have immediately dismissed it as obviously out-of-bounds," Lederman wrote. "It wouldn't have been a close call, and therefore it wouldn't have required any detailed memoranda or extended debates."
Consistent with that take, NBC News reported this week that Marine Col. Paul Meagher, the judge advocate general at the U.S. Southern Command in Miami, "expressed concern" that the boat strikes "could amount to extrajudicial killings" and "therefore legally expose service members involved in the operations." Although "the opinion of the top lawyer for the command overseeing a military operation is typically critical to whether or not the operation moves forward," NBC News says, Meagher's opinion "was ultimately overruled by more senior government officials, including officials at the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel."
The story mentions another possible indication of dissent within the military: "The head of Southern Command, Adm. Alvin Holsey, plans to step down after less than a year in a job that typically lasts about three years. Holsey announced in October that he will depart next month."
In this context, a reminder that service members are not just allowed but obligated to disobey "manifestly illegal" orders seems timely and appropriate. But Trump thinks it is "SEDITIOUS" and merits severe punishment.
"It's called SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL," he wrote on Truth Social on Thursday. "Each one of these traitors to our Country should be ARRESTED AND PUT ON TRIAL. Their words cannot be allowed to stand - We won't have a Country anymore!!! An example MUST BE SET."
Later, Trump added: "This is really bad, and Dangerous to our Country. Their words cannot be allowed to stand. SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR FROM TRAITORS!!! LOCK THEM UP???"
Trump deploys accusations of treason as recklessly as he threatens to yank broadcast licenses, and both habits reflect his intolerance for speech that offends him, which he thinks should be (or already is) illegal. He either does not know or does not care what the crimes of treason and seditious conspiracy actually entail.
An American is guilty of treason when he "levies war" against the United States or "adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere." A seditious conspiracy is a plot to "overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof."
The video that upset Trump plainly does not fit either of those definitions. Yet during a briefing on Thursday, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt suggested that it might.
"This morning, President Trump accused six Democratic lawmakers of seditious behavior punishable by death," a reporter noted. "Just to be clear, does the president want to execute members of Congress?"
Leavitt replied "no" but then proceeded to imply that Slotkin et al. had engaged in criminal activity. "You have sitting members of the United States Congress who conspired together to orchestrate a video message to members of the United States military, to active-duty service members, to members of the national security apparatus, encouraging them to defy the president's lawful orders," she said.
Right out of the gate, Leavitt misrepresented what the video says. It is explicitly about "illegal orders," not "the president's lawful orders," and its message jibes with what the UCMJ says about the duties of service members. Examples of "unlawful orders" that should not be obeyed include intentional targeting of civilians (ahem), torture of prisoners, looting of property, and suppression of constitutionally protected protests.
"The sanctity of our military rests on the chain of command, and if that chain of command is broken, it can lead to people getting killed," Leavitt warned. "It can lead to chaos. And that's what these members of Congress, who swore an oath to abide by the Constitution, are essentially encouraging."
This "radical message from sitting members of Congress," Leavitt said, "could inspire chaos and it could incite violence and it certainly could disrupt the chain of command….That is a very, very dangerous message, and it perhaps is punishable by law. I'm not a lawyer. I'll leave that to the Department of Justice and the Department of War to decide."
Since lawyers in those agencies are busy concocting arguments aimed at transforming murder into self-defense, I will save them some time by pointing out that the legislators' video is not, in fact, "punishable by law." Under the Supreme Court's 1969 decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio, even advocacy of illegal conduct is constitutionally protected unless it is both "directed" at inciting "imminent lawless action" and "likely" to have that effect. Far from trying to incite "imminent lawless action," Slotkin et al. urged service members to "stand up for our laws" and "our Constitution," which they accurately said could require disobeying "illegal orders."
Is that observation apt to cause "chaos" by "disrupt[ing] the chain of command," as Leavitt claims? Probably not, since the video merely highlights a principle that is already incorporated into the UCMJ. Service members are not likely to casually deem orders unlawful, since they would have to back up that defense when charged with violating Article 90 of the UCMJ, which applies to anyone who "willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer," or Article 92, which requires obedience to "any lawful general order or regulation."
Trump thinks any order he issues is ipso facto "lawful," which is obviously not true. He also thinks reiterating a longstanding principle of military law is (or should be) illegal. His predictably authoritarian response to the video validates the concerns of the legislators who produced it.
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Fatass Donnie, Vlad, and Lil Kim - all three cut from the same dictator cloth.
#KillYourRivals
Put Bonesaw in that group. (Edit). They all hate a free press and journalists who speak the truth.
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#ssr-is
If you ever come around to wanting to work on your affliction, EvilBahnFarter-Fuhrer, start here: M. Scott Peck, The People of the Lie, the Hope for Healing Human Evil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684848597/reasonmagazinea-20/
People who are evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Peck demonstrates the havoc these “people of the lie” work in the lives of those around them.
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#ssr-is
Regarding Trump ordering the murder by the U.S. Navy of civilians in the alleged drug boats - he and the chain of command most likely asked for volunteers and did not order anybody to commit the murders. There were probably plenty of volunteers. If they had ordered sailors or pilots to kill civilians without calling for volunteers, then they would risk sailors or pilots rightfully refusing illegal or at least wrongful orders.
I deliberately put my comment where it is above because it is the closest to the top as I could place it amongst all the irrelevancies. It's not a reply to any comment.
Whatever, Melvin.
The nazi SSqrlsy doing his “Heckler’s Pedo” act to distract away from the resident pedophile. Calling out a MAPedo is evil in his eyes. Maybe Melvin is shrike’s father.
You were banned for posting a link to child porn.
So, uh, Shrike, this guy a friend of yours?
https://x.com/jameshartline/status/1991712515785650285?s=46&t=qeA47-JjK6vq0pfnxg60dA
How about this guy too, Shrike? Come across him in your chats?
https://x.com/jameshartline/status/1991332519493738711?s=46&t=qeA47-JjK6vq0pfnxg60dA
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html
No administration has been as dictatorial as the Obiden regime was.
Forced lockdowns, forced vaccines, forced business closings, people losing their jobs for refusing to take a dangerous unproven vaccine, children forced to lose two years of school.
Then there's the weaponization of the law against anyone who dared to speak out. Hundreds of protestors held in prison for four years with out a trial. a lawyer, some of them beaten, no visits from family, suffering from medical issues, One would think they were sent to some soviet style gulag.
yes, we know what a cruel dictator looks like, after all America suffered under the likes of the Obiden regime for four rotten years.
All that started under Trump.
No, Trump had nothing to do with it, TDS-addled *LYING* pile of slimy shit. It happened WHILE he was POTUS.
Fuck off and die.
Just checking. Did the TDS-addled lying pile of slimy shit get that?
Once more asswipe, DID YOU GET THAT?
Just checking, since some asswipes have a hard time dealing with reality.
No, it didn't.
TY.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Ummmm... in Trump's first term, he famously cut the bulk of federal regulations by 25-30%. That's hardly a dictator; that makes him the least dictatorial president since, at least, Calvin Coolidge.
Which "unlawful" order specifically are these people referring to? The truth is they consider ALL Trump orders illegal so miss me with your bullshit Sullum.
Deploying the military against persons inside the US. Have you been in a coma?
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#ssr-is
If you ever come around to wanting to work on your affliction, EvilBahnFarter-Fuhrer, start here: M. Scott Peck, The People of the Lie, the Hope for Healing Human Evil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684848597/reasonmagazinea-20/
People who are evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Peck demonstrates the havoc these “people of the lie” work in the lives of those around them.
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#ssr-is
So if China landed an army and started shooting Americans, deploying the military would be an illegal order?
Using force against an army shooting at civilians is not the same as murdering civilians. These drug boats are not military, rather civilians being murdered by the U.S.
Hmmm, let's see Lincoln deployed the military against a number of states in the south, we all know how that turned out. Lincoln ordered draft protestors to be shot.
Eisenhower deployed the military in Alabama, Nixon deployed the military at kent State , Ohio,
The 101st Airborne was deployed in Detroit during the 1967 riots.
Yet Trump cannot use the National Guard to protect ICE and federal buildings. What a cruel dictator.!!!
Fuck off and die, Nazi shitbag.
The secessionist American colonists were traitors who declared their sovereignty, which denied the sovereignty of King George III AND all would-be authoritarians. This was a new political paradigm, historically. The backlash was immediate. The politically powerful who robbed everyone, including each other, murdered those who dared to praise the new concept of "individual rights". The counter revolt was immediate with the replacement of The Articles of Confederation with the authoritarian US Constitution. No matter, it's "We the People" who triumphed, simply by refusing to pay the 10% whiskey tax. Was this treason? No, the feds usurped their powers. Usurpation is treason. Even if the people did waive their rights, they still have them to invoke INSTANTLY. That's why they are called "inalienable".
Doesn't address the fact that JohnZ is an antisemitic pile of Nazi shit.
That's irrelevant to this discussion, regardless if true or not.
"That's irrelevant to this discussion, regardless if true or not."
It is true and is certainly NOT irrelevant to any post by the Nazi shit JohnZ. Do you assume a child molester (like turd, for example) can post here without reference to those claims/crimes?
turd, the asswipe of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Dude, that's irrelevant, regardless whether true or false. Dude, your comments are the embarrassment.
Asshole, that is relevant.
Oh, and your comments should be embarrassing for you, assuming you have the ability for embarrassment.
Fuck off and die, asswipe.
Bogus argument. The politicians did not explicitly say that Trump already gave unlawful orders. They were reminding the military that they are required to NOT obey any unlawful orders given in the future. You can try to put words in their mouths but the videotape shows your argument is not valid.
Correct. Knee jerk conservatives lie as much as Emo progs do.
So, what exactly happened to your original SPB account?
Maybe the pedophile lost his password.
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#ssr-is
Maybe reading Peck instead of being a PervFected Peckerhead might ALSO cure Your broken-record-player afflcition?
If you ever come around to wanting to work on your affliction, EvilBahnFarter-Fuhrer, start here: M. Scott Peck, The People of the Lie, the Hope for Healing Human Evil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684848597/reasonmagazinea-20/
People who are evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Peck demonstrates the havoc these “people of the lie” work in the lives of those around them.
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#ssr-is
Projection much, Chumby? You seem rather obsessed with pedophilia. Sure you're not struggling with it, yourself? Otherwise, your comments are getting tiresome. I don't know, maybe you were abused as a kid. In that case, get help. But, you think you could stop polluting the comments section with it? Maybe, get help instead.
Fuck off and die, asswipe. Nothing more be said. Just fuck off and die.
No one cares, Melvin.
turd, the TDS addled ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Yes your bogus argument has no legs.
You say the military is "not required" to obey an order that an individual deems unlawful? Does Rachel Maddow who programs your thoughts get to decide what is lawful or not?
These demonrats are not in any position to preach to the military and it is an insult to the military that these demonrats think they should have to remind the military of what they already know.
You didn't read this article at all, did you ?
I didn't. JS;dr.
Ignorance is STRENGTH, Cumrades!!! Onwards and upwards!!!
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#ssr-is
Why read the article when you can make stuff up, argue against that, and then smugly declare victory? Strawmen are so much easier to defeat than actual arguments from actual people.
Strawmen are so much easier to defeat than actual arguments from actual people.
You would know best, Strawcasmic, that is, if you had any self-awareness whatsoever.
Why would we?
I guess it's okay to use the military to anyone who dares to differ from government dictat.
The government has such a wonderful history : Ruby Ridge, Waco, Texas, Oklahoma City, 9/11.
The there's the war of Northern Aggression that killed 80,000 Americans.
Got your SS tat, shitbag?
And trump didn't explicitly say they committed sedition and would be put to death.
And the option for a military person is to resign, not just ignore an order. All orders are presumed by troops to be lawful per scotus precedence.
Did you read the fucking article? To wit (emphasis added for the reading-comprehension impaired):
Also, tell me you never served without telling me. For one, enlistees cannot simply resign.
So your citation agrees with me, then says to seek clarification. Glad we cleared that up.
Now. What is the punishment if the soldier refuses a lawful order and disregards it. Please tell us dummy.
No we didn't dickhead. You made a clear statement that all orders are presumed legal without acknowledging the rest of the fucking handbook citation. Having prefaced that with the stupid, "And the option for a military person is to resign..." remark (stupid considering enlistees cannot resign), your stance was clearly to assert that soldiers have the obligation to obey all orders without regard to their legality. So fuck off with your disingenuous sophistry and morally repugnant lies.
Soldiers are obligated to refuse and disobey "manifestly illegal" orders. Period. Full stop.
Remember that if the politics were reversed, and Republicans were urging soldiers to disobey unlawful orders from a Democratic president, Jesse would be hailing the Republicans as heroes and attacking anyone making the very arguments he's making right now.
Principals, not principles.
Nice strawman, dudette.
OK retard, which specific orders are "manifestly illegal"? He's not ordering the firebombing of Detroit or Dearborn.
"Soldiers are obligated to refuse and disobey "manifestly illegal" orders. Period. Full stop."
Which orders are "manifestly illegal", bullshitter?
Orders to blow up civilian drug boats are illegal. Or at least it would be very difficult to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt to convict a military person for disobeying a LAWFUL order for refusing to murder civilian drug smugglers without proof. The prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a reasonable person would not find those orders unlawful, which would be difficult.
Most likely, to avoid the above-named difficulty of compelling obedience to unlawful orders, the Navy most likely called for volunteers to blow up the drug boats and murder the civilians. There was probably no shortage of bloodthirsty volunteers.
Cite missing, slimy pile of TDS-addled steaming pile of lying lefty shit.
I see the asswipe See.More has yet to answer the question, perhaps the lefty shit asswipe is yet one more lefty shit claiming a totally bogus handle, see.nothing at all
Fuck off and die, shitstain
I answered the question. See my comment above. Sevo, ya know, your scatalogical obsession makes this comment section look bad. Sevo, you may want to look up - Tourette's syndrome.
Oh, so you are seemore, hiding under another handle? Is honesty not a part of your character, shit bag?
And, no, asswipe, you did not do so.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.
More bullshit from slimy pile of lying lefty shit.
I'll hazard a guess. Courts Martial and a Big Chicken Dinner or Dishonorable Discharge? Depending on circumstances a stay at Club Leavenworth before the BCD or Dishonorable? If it happens during wartime or in a declared conflict zone or is responsible for other soldiers deaths a short time of standing in front of a firing squad to reflect on the errors of your ways before a very loud noise?
Here. More for you.
Rule 916(d) of the Manual for Courts Martial says:
It is a defense to any offense that the accused was acting pursuant to orders unless the accused knew the orders to be unlawful or a person of ordinary sense and understanding would have known the orders to be unlawful.
Requires knowledge. Not assumptions.
In fact in one of the more famous cases William Calley was found guilty for knowingly issuing an illegal order.
The. We have the 2006 case of Lt Watanda who claimed the Iraq War was illegal. Want to know what the military courts ruled?
[t]he order to deploy soldiers is a non-justiciable political question … an accused may not excuse his disobedience of an order to proceed to foreign duty on the ground that our presence there does not conform to his notions of legality.
So no, his duty was not to assume the legality of an order.
2016 Nathan Smith tried to refuse a deployment to Kuwait under the same belief of legality. Want to guess what the determination was?
Should we get into the 19 legal uses of torture prior to 2006? Want to guess the precedence foe torture against those prior to changes in law? No?
There is a reason why your own fucking citation says in a rare case, like the first case I mentioned above regarding gunning down civilians.
So stop assuming you know jack shit.
Bwahahahahaaa.
I served bitch (USN '93-95, disabled). During my service I refused illegal orders on two separate occasions.
The first time, February of '93, I refused an order of the Boatswain. He replied, "What the fuck do you mean, 'no'!?" and gave me an opportunity to explain. After presenting information about conditions that he was not aware of at the time he issued the order, he sent me to another detail instead of pursuing disciplinary proceedings.
The second time (July '94) I was, effectively, acquitted, by the Ship's Navigator (the CO and XO being not aboard at the time) at Captain's Mast (i.e.: NJP [non-judicial punishment] akin to Article 15). I had to stand, at attention, awkwardly, as the Navigator lectured my Gunner about why the order was illegal.
Now fuck right the fuck off you mendacious twat!
And then everyone else stood up and clapped.
This does not pass the smell test. Disobeyed what orders on what grounds? During a relative time of "peace"? You are exaggerating common day interactions in the military and trying to make it cool. 2 years and then disability? You seem like one of those guys who spends a lot of time bragging about your non eventful service, if you served at all. Or you spent a couple years and then got a general discharge based on some nonsense, just so they could get rid of your sorry ass.
If I had to guess, it would have been regarding Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell and some seamen.
Ah the good ol' days.
See.More
Blind fucking pile of lefty stuff.
Fuck off and die, asswipe.
"a reasonable person 'would recognize the wrongfulness of the act or order, even in light of a soldier's general duty to obey, then the order is "manifestly illegal," and soldiers have a duty to disobey it."
Not even close to the truth. You never served, have you?
Well Lester, don't go around raping children. Why did I remind you of that? No reason in particular, just thought you especially and especially now should be reminded.
Doesn't really hold water as no reason at all now does it.
Your facts are leftist because they contradict the narrative.
What facts?
This joke writes itself.
Yes, your comments are generally a joke. A bad joke.
And yet you were too stupid or lazy to actually follow through. The only joke her is you, and perhaps Lester.
So they transparently created a propaganda video that was parsed to deflect from the obvious message. "We didn't say Trump told you to do anything illegal but we all know he will". Nobody is fooled by this bullshit except you apparently.
A) Nobody in the military or intelligence community needed to be reminded of this.
B) They didn’t feel the need to do this when any other president was in office.
C) Every single one of them supported going after Edward Snowden and Julian Assange for doing what? Exposing them for following illegal orders.
We all know exactly what those Democrat traitors meant. Everything else is just bullshit.
They meant to give sanction to exactly the same misbehavior we see in the lower courts. It is code for "Resist the Trump administration any way you can - and in your case just interpret orders as illegal and refuse". Just like judges that interpret the law (twist the law and their powers) to gum up the judicial works only to be reversed by higher courts. It is a dog whistle to any TDS resistance fighters - grind the gears of the military just as the TDS judges are grinding down the wheels of justice.
No what they were doing is using the power of their office to coerce insubordination and dereliction of duty of military personnel. That is one of the main definitions of Sedition.
"Bogus argument..."
Bogus attempt at deflecting, but TDS does that, as the TDS-addled steaming pile of lying shit attempts to do in the article
This. They are encouraging insubordination regardless of the legality of the orders. That is a problem even though the statement is correct that they don't have to follow unlawful orders. In context where democrats are lying about the law and citing rogue judicial orders to prevent Trump from enforcement of actual laws.
I'm not sure if a MORE dishonest take on this thing is possible, but I have no doubt Reason will try.
It does seem funny that those Dems cannot even provide one order that MIGHT be illegal.
I have to agree. This statement on its own is innocuous or even virtuous. However, combined with the statement that essentially everything Trump does is illegal or unconstitutional (from the most basic of law enforcement or a construction project at the White House), it verges on "meddlesome priest" levels of indirect demands.
Add to that the "existential threat to our Democracy" that they have repeatedly claimed him to be and you have a situation pushing people towards insubordination/coup through years of lies
The main thing is that they are using the power of their office to push this. That's the part I have a problem with.
By which they are arguably encouraging the military to ignore the civilian control of the military under the duly elected chief executive.
JS;dr
Of course you won’t read anything critical of dear leader. You’re like a Scientologist. You live in a MAGA vacuum like an L Ron con man does.
Pedophilic clown, to help prevent splurges of your surges of MAPedo urges read:
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#ssr-is
Scumby the Scummy Chimp-Chump is behaving (same ass many MAGA Maggots do here) in uncuntrolled, irresponsible mob style! Shit is true because others have said shit is true! With NO evidence
ever given! Same ass the assholes cuntstantly saying that I eat shit, and have confessed to eating shit! So I know all about this mobbing and LYING behavior! Shit is EVIL, assholes!
https://psychcentral.com/disorders/treating-pedophilia#ssr-is
You were banned for posting a link to child porn.
So, is DNC delegate Matthew Anthony Inman a friend of yours? He's been busted for the same thing you got your original account banned for here.
Access (D)enied.
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html
Hey Shrike, reminding you that downloading and viewing child porn is illegal. As is raping small children.
Just thought you should be aware.
The MAPedo smugly believes he is the victim. The schizophrenic nazi is his enabler.
And the other pedophile here, the morbidly obese sea lion.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of TDS-addled lefty shit.
That's something coming from a moron like yourself.
JS;dr
JS;dr
"The video criticizes the Trump administration for "pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens," saying: "We know you are under enormous stress and pressure right now. Americans trust their military, but that trust is at risk.""
This is the problem with the world today. TOO MANY LYING SACKS OF SHIT. Especially posing as journalists in media.
Maybe they shouldn't have been inciting sedition?
Leftists are so dishonest there’s no point in trying to have honest discussions with them.
Just as it is impossible to win an argument with stupid because stupid fails to comprehend, arguing with demonrats is an equal waste of time because they are lying sacks of gaslit shit.
Yup. And anyone who criticizes Trump is a leftist Democrat. There are no independents, no libertarians, and no people who actually think for themselves. Only Trump supporters and leftists. That's it. So if anyone criticizes Trump they're lying sacks of gaslit leftist shit, because being leftist is the only possible reason to not support everything Trump does. Yup. With a false dichotomy like that you don't even need to argue or listen to anyone. You can just tell them what they think, argue against it, tell them to fuck off, and then smugly declare victory. Fallacies are pretty awesome like that. That's why they are the standard arguments for Trump defenders in these comments.
Speaking of the stupid.
So now that you have recognized the projection of the left onto anyone who does not bend the knee, will you also call it out? Or will you keep carrying on with the hate projected from the left?
"Democrats did it first, that makes it ok."
Got any new material, Sarc?
Have you ever tried not being a drunken shitweasel?
Poor stupid sarcbot.
He said sedition caries the penalty of death. He didn't accuse anyone directly of sedition.
Just like your lefty boos claim the democrats never said to ignore lawful orders despite screaming everything he does is illegal.
Weird how you temper arguments differently dependent on the side jakey.
Trump intelligently threw the exact same rhetorical comment as they did back at them and they are too stupid to realize it.
What if's abound
And jakey fell for it.
In his defense, he is completely stupid and deranged.
Yep. Trump just did the same thing they did, right?
Does Liz Cheney or Marjorie Taylor Greene get to decide what was a lawful order or not?
The judicial is now doing executive functions so it makes sense the legislative do that job.
Not MTG……
BREAKING:
https://apnews.com/article/marjorie-taylor-green-congress-resigns-trump-maga-5f42d4893343babc8e87da1491a0de2b
WASHINGTON (AP) — Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, a loyal supporter-turned-critic of President Donald Trump who faced his political retribution if she sought reelection, said Friday she is resigning from Congress in January.
Greene, in a more than 10-minute video posted online, explained her decision and said she didn’t want her congressional district “to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the president we all fought for,” she said.
Greene’s resignation followed a public fallout with Trump in recent months, as the congresswoman criticized him for his stance on files related to Jeffrey Epstein, along with foreign policy and health care.
Trump branded her a “traitor” and “wacky” and said he would endorse a challenger against her when she ran for reelection next year.
She said her last day would be Jan. 5, 2026.
"...“to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the president we all fought for,”..."
Trying to find a sympathy face and failing. Fuck off and die.
She must have gotten offered a gig at CNN.
You know why she is putting it off till then? It's puts her just past the threshold for a lifetime pension and gold plated healthcare. Trump sent her polling in secret showing her 20 pts down to Ossof and she threw a tantrum. The hell with her and her grifting
Stupid Reason. You just don't understand.
If a Democrat president was sending soldiers to Republican cities in order to intimidate local governments, was having soldiers murder suspected criminals on the high seas without pretending to have a trial, and threatening to start wars in Africa and South America without permission from Congress, then it would be completely and totally valid for Republicans to remind soldiers that they don't have to obey unlawful orders.
But because Trump is president and Democrats are the ones reminding soldiers, what they are doing amounts to treason.
See the difference?
There is so much ignorance on your post Maddow. Can you do better at preparation before your next show Monday?
Will Sarc lay a wreath at Dick Cheney’s grave like Maddow did when she attended his funeral?
Reread your post and perhaps then you will understand how woefully wrong and ignorant to the truth your are?
No soldiers were sent to Cities to intimidate the local governments.
Is killing known terrorists or enemy combatants considered murdering suspected criminals? Are enemy combatants entitled to a trial? Threatening to start a war, which never happened, requires congress' permission?
Can you or some elected official or some district Judge over rule the Commander in Chief? Your Maddow is looking more and more like Mad Cow.
Reread your post and perhaps then you will understand how woefully wrong and ignorant to the truth your are?
Self-awareness is not exactly Sarc's strong suit.
Except for DC, all the places soldiers have been sent has been as support for federal agents and property in the course of executing federal immigration law. Or did I miss the story of them taking over regular policing?
You did, but that's only cause you weren't in Sarc's head while he was passed out drunk.
"...start wars in Africa and South America without permission from Congress..."
Every president starts wars without permission. The Constitution says that the way Congress gives permission is with a declaration of war, which they haven't done since WW2. Heck, Truman didn't even *tell* Congress he was sending troops to Korea.
What the Seditious Six's (sorry) video demonstrates, as if more were needed, is that the Nuremberg Defense ("I was only following orders") hasn't worked since the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals. Sometimes the best reponse to an order that feels wrong must be "Yes, sir. No,sir!.", regardless of who's giving the order.
Most soldiers will be able to distinguish actual war crimes and legal orders with dubious rationale.
If a solider refuses orders to bomb a military target because "drone wars are immoral" the courts will nail you for sedition.
The biggest problem I'm finding in comments here and elsewhere on this is that the majority of people have never served.
18 USC Code 2387 deals specifically with what they did. It is not treason, it is sedition with a penalty of up to 10 yrs in Federal Pound You In The Ass Prison. If you are in the military you just opened a can of whoop ass on yourself as they take a dim view of disobeying a direct order. If you lucky you will get an immediate dishonorable discharge or the Big Chicken Dinner. If JAG is feeling froggy you earned a stay at Club Leavenworth before you get the dishonorable or BCD. If it's in a war zone, combat zone or the like you could end up before a firing squad. The military doesn't fuck around with this. Claiming your congressman told you you could do it will get you no love. Those six assholes knew exactly what they were doing.
I should point out that 18 USC deals with civilians. If you are active duty the military deals with it themselves under UCMJ and they are very specific and unyielding. Your only course before a firing squad is to try running it up to the Sec of your branch, Sec of Defense or the President
Good luck with that
Fuck off and die, asswipe.
So it's kosher for the republicans to fly to Ukraine, meet directly with soldiers and intelligence community and advise them to "defy illegal orders" from Zelenskky (a guy known for abducting people legally exempted from military service into conscription)?
You would be subverting the office of the presidency and constitutional order itself. If you think there's wrongdoing from the executive branch, you address it via congress or the courts. You don't circumvent protocol by issuing blanket commands to disobey "illegal orders". This is no different than me telling Reason interns to "don't do what your editors tell you to do if it's illegal". Please don't tell management wouldn't feel undermined.
If the military (on the orders of GOP) disobeyed orders from Obama to bomb Libya because he didn't seek congressional approval, that would indeed be sedition. How can it NOT BE? What court would rule otherwise? Think about it. Sullum predictably lists bunch of problematic things Trump has done to rationalize the dem hit jobs, which only proves his TDS.
Democrats impersonated lawyers to extract illegals. A judge escorted a wanted illegal criminal out of the court room. Local politicians urge cops to stand up to ICE. States give CDL to illegal drivers who later run people over. In the context of their lawlessness and radicalization, how can this stunt be seen as anything other than a plot against Trump? You think this is about some uncontroversial move to keep Trump from doing something illegal? How can one be so blind?
How many of these Congress critters violated their oath to support and defend the Constitution by voting to pass unconstitutional laws? How many Supreme Court Justices have written opinions about those unconstitutional laws that muddy the issues rather than clarifying the original intent of the Framers to strike them down? Although I agree that the President should not be summarily executing men in boats in international waters, these are not the Veterans I would choose to send that message.
The problem, as with Citizens Arrest in many jurisdictions, is that, at least in the military, and especially in enlisted, you had better be right, if disobeying a direct order. Enlisted face a less than honorable, if not dishonorable, discharge, that will follow them for the rest of their life.
Bruce Hayden--Agreed.
In many cases, the JAG, the executive branch, and even the courts have very tortured interpretations of the law, so it is pretty much impossible for a soldier to divine what these entities consider to be a "legal" order.
And even if the courts eventually find that the soldier was absolutely correct to disobey an unlawful order, it's likely that the poor sap will be ruined for life.
And I think pretty much everybody in the service knows this.
Trump Says Legislators Committed Treason
Actually he said they committed Sedition. You repeated this over and over, but you still went with the clickbait lie.
Never let the facts get in the way, Fakey Jakey. You are not a journalist. You're not even a trash journalist.
You're just trash.
Service members are not likely to casually deem orders unlawful
They also aren't likely to deem these orders unlawful. You might sit and screech about how unlawful you think they are from inside of your gay bluesky bubble but, outside of transgender officers and grunts in bondage getups, you tell an American patriot that you want him to go kill some drug-runners and back up the LEOs out there hunting the border jumping scumbags that are destroying their country from within, I'll bet real money that most of them will happily reply, "Just point me at them, Sir. What are my ROEs?"
He really is scum.
Hey.
Scum might have some use.
Don't insult scum like that.
So back to the beginning.
Which order clearly violated the law?
Or is it just assumed [D]emon-rats can yell 'unlawful' at national defense (i.e. immigration control) and all the sheeple follow the 'orders' blindly?
If you want to play fuzzy-law interpretation then...
"adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere." & "or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof" would fit more-so 'fuzzily' as five congressmen committing treason as does any Presidential orders so-far as being fitted as unlawful.
Misplaced comment deleted.
The democrats are so upset that this current administration is rounding up ILLEGAL ALIENS, especially violent types who rape women and children, commit murder, sell drugs, operate an internation gang and generally make life hell for the rest of us.
These are obviously the kind of people the Democrats want to remain in America. They would make good voters.
The Cloward -Piven theory is in full swing here. Create chaos and then swoop in promising to restore order but what the Democrats have in mind is the order brought on by a real dictatorship.
We all witnessed what they are capable of during the Obiden covid years.
There is your dictator. Tyrannical governors, judges and a regime in D.C. that ran roughshod of people's rights.
And the main stream media as well, did the bidding of that regime.
Hey, Nazi shit! Got Hitler's picture on the wall?
So, here we have hyper-partisan law prof Lederman determining that Trump violated some law or another when he had the military take out open ocean speed boats running drugs into the US, far from our, or anyone’s shores. And because of the vague laws that Lederman alluded to, the military personnel involved were obligated to ignore direct orders from their superiors.
That isn’t, and cannot be, how the military operates. Every order second guessed by barracks lawyers. Except for JAG, they aren’t lawyers. They didn’t go to law school, and would be considered incompetent by many here to determine whether a given order violates a specific law, etc. Heck, I wouldn’t and don’t trust Lederman to make those decisions, given his history of hyper-partisan politically expedient rhetoric.
Lederman cites “ The Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations”. By its title, it isn’t aimed at enlisted sailors, or even junior officers. It is aimed at senior, commanding, officers, likely Commander (O-5) and above. They have an obligation to not blindly obey illegal orders. This is aimed at senior officers with independent commands. It is not aimed at those under their command. It is part of their responsibility as a senior officer with an independent command.
But what Lederman, and presumably those 8 former military and intelligence officers, are implying is that this duty extends down through the ranks, down to E-1 recruits. It can’t, except in the most egregious cases. Every order second guessed by barracks lawyers. For the military to operate efficiently, higher command must be confident that the orders that they give are carried out efficiently and promptly. When that isn’t the case, people (and, in particular, military personnel) die, and missions fail. And, of course, that is the obvious goal of these 8 Senators and Representatives - to destroy the effectiveness and cohesiveness of our military when carrying out Trump’s orders.
I would also point out that drug smugglers are legally considered pirates and kill-on-sight is legal. So what they are asking is that these recruits verify an entire chain of evidence, much of which may be classified.
This isn't "open fire on a group of unarmed civilians". It's "verify that these people which we believe are legitimate targets actually are so.
"... drug smugglers are legally considered pirates and kill-on-sight is legal."
Says who? Citation(s) please! And WHO is verifying that they ARE drug smugglers?
Kill-on-sight of witches was once legal, too, ya know...
"The video features Sen. Elissa Slotkin (D–Mich.), a former CIA officer; Sen. Mark Kelly (D–Ariz.), a former astronaut and U.S. Navy aviator; Rep. Chris Deluzio (D–Pa.), also a former naval officer; Rep. Maggie Goodlander (D–N.H.), a former intelligence officer in the U.S. Navy Reserve; Rep. Chrissy Houlahan (D–Pa.), a former Air Force officer; and Rep. Jason Crow (D–Colo.), a former Army Ranger. They mention those backgrounds while delivering a simple message to "members of the military" and "the intelligence community" who "take risks each day to keep Americans safe": "Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.""
Not for nothing --- but Benedict Arnold was a very accomplished commander in the Revolutionary Army.
You know, until the "incident" and all.
And funny hearing that the "intel community" should ignore illegal orders given that deep appreciation of Constitutional limits and all.
Hey, I do not think I've heard much from you about Arctic Frost...
The TDS-addled steaming pile of lying shit Sullum wants to find something, anything he can really claim about Trump which doesn't require outright lying.
And the TDS-addled steaming pile of lying shit Sullum fails once again.
Fuck off and die, asswipe.
Although I don't care for Trump's response, the video that was put out wasn't 'noting' shit, it was suggesting that service members second guess the CIC's orders based on partisan political interpretations of military law (UCMJ). This is the seed of uncertainty that the video was intending to plant, and it is a dangerous path for these service members in particular, as well as the cohesion of our nation's military in general. Service members are faced with the very real choice of following orders that are presumed lawful until proven otherwise, or reject these orders based upon their own interpretations, and own a CM/DD/BCD with a one-way ticket to leavenworth..
For an active duty soldier earning the Big Chicken Dinner will be the least of their worries.
Give me a break. A soldier has no way of knowing if an order is legal or not, and even if he's right, that's a small consolation when he's breaking rocks in Leavenworth or facing a firing squad. And, by definition, trying to get the military to disobey the president is an attempted military coup.
JS; dr
The sad thing is, it should never have gotten to this point. While POTUS has to be the one to decide, POTUS's Cabinet officers should be pointing out that many of these actions are not supported by law or tradition. If POTUS repeatedly declines to take their professional, considered advice, then they should publicly resign, clearly stating their point of view on the way out. This uncertainty should never be getting to the level of the soldier / sailor / airman who has to pull the trigger.
The fact that President Trump has surrounded himself with spineless sycophants is what needs to be addressed.
100% correct.
100% bullshit.
"...The fact that President Trump has surrounded himself with spineless sycophants is what needs to be addressed..."
Yeah, like his last term, he should have kept deep-staters around who would leak everything he said in order to help those who impeached him for being D. J. Trump.
Seek treatment.
https://www.ucmjlaw.com/article-92-can-service-members-refuse-an-illegal-order/
There democrat politicians are unlikely to be punished for actively encourage sedition from active military personnel. The fact often missed is that there are no illegal orders until after the fact, so these active military personnel really are risking the ultimate punishment.
Non-military people would only be risking 20 years as the maximum. While it is true that military personal should not follow illegal orders, they are risking a lot when they do, so they should be pretty #$%^& sure that the order will be rules illegal and not found otherwise.
The democrats specifically didn't mention any specific orders, which is illustrative because there have not been any orders rules as being illegal even though there are a few running through the courts. There is a very distinct difference between the two.
I understand people not agreeing with orders coming from a president that they disagree with, but this does not make those orders illegal. You only need to flip the narrative 180 degrees to expose the fallacy.
The reality is that these democrats should have know better and shouldn't have made this ill-advised political message. They probably should be punished at the ballot box and sent packing in disgrace by the voters. These democrats are not doing this in the best interest of the country, but in the interest of their political agenda.