Do the Natcons Get Anything Right?

Plus: A listener asks if the Roundtable has given the arguments of those opposed to low-skilled immigration a fair hearing.

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Do the Natcons Get Anything Right?

In this week's The Reason Roundtable, editors Matt Welch, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Nick Gillespie, and Peter Suderman wrestle with newfangled viewpoints and contradictions within National Conservatism and its core disagreements with libertarianism. Also, the editors assess a fresh batch of Republican presidential hopefuls.

0:23: Libertarians vs. the New Right

28:00: Appraising a fresh group of Republican presidential hopefuls

43:53: Weekly Listener Question

53:46: This week's cultural recommendations

Mentioned in this podcast:

"Conservatives Pushing 'Common Good Capitalism' Sound a Lot Like Progressives," by Veronique de Rugy

"The Post-Liberal Authoritarians Want You To Forget That Private Companies Have Rights," by Stephanie Slade

"Ron DeSantis Confirms (Again) That His Attack on Disney Was Political Retribution," by Eric Boehm

"Pot Legalization Is a 'Big Mistake' Only If You Ignore the Value of Freedom and the Injustice of Prohibition," by Jacob Sullum

"No, Vivek Ramaswamy, 'Political Expression' Shouldn't Be a 'Civil Right'," by Stephanie Slade

"Elizabeth Nolan Brown and Scott Winship: Governments Can't Increase Birthrates. They Shouldn't Even Try." by Nick Gillespie

"What a New Report Gets Wrong About Economic Inequality," by Scott Winship

"3 Myths about American Decline," by Nick Gillespie and Noor Greene

The male labor force participation rate has declined from 87 Percent to 68 Percent, according to the St. Louis Federal Reserve.

"'Now Is Better,' Says Legendary Designer Stefan Sagmeister," by Nick Gillespie

"All Culture, All the Time," by Nick Gillespie

"Good Riddance To Chris Christie," by Christian Britschgi

"Why Pols from New Jersey Aren't Born To Run," by Nick Gillespie

"Fast X Is a Loud, Obnoxious, Campy Bore," by Peter Suderman

Send your questions to [e-mail]. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.

Today's sponsor:

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Audio production by Ian Keyser; assistant production by Hunt Beaty.

Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve

What are we consuming this week?

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• Lost Places: Stories

Nick Gillespie

• Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I'd Known Earlier

Peter Suderman

• Fast X

Matt Welch

• The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers

---

Comments

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

"3 Myths about American Decline," by Nick Gillespie and Noor Greene

The male labor force participation rate has declined from 87 Percent to 68 Percent, according to the St. Louis Federal Reserve.

[A Cynical Asshole]

Just a coincidence. "To be sure..."

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[chemjeff radical individualist]

Misleading.
Here are the statistics:
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/categories/32443

Over the same time period, 1948 - April 2023:
Male labor force participation rate decreased from a peak of 89% to 68%.
Female labor force participation rate *increased* from 31% to 57%.
So there are fewer men working, but more women working.

Even more relevant, if you look at 25-54 year olds (prime working age), the labor force participation rate as of April 2023 is 83.3%, which is below the peak of ... 84.6%, in January 1999.

So what is the crisis again?

[Mother's Lament]

"So there are fewer men working, but more women working."

Umm, so what?

There's still an overall decline and it's not like those 21% of males are child rearing or homemaking like the women outside the workforce in 1948 were.

Also, I couldn't duplicate your results, which boxes did you check?

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[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

Do the Natcons Get Anything Right?

Before he slinked off "John" aka Red Tony, kept saying that Bush the Lesser would be vindicated and his miserable presidency declared a success after the Middle East developed into a hotbed of liberal democracy.

Verdict = John was full of shit again.

[Mother's Lament]

For a guy who supported political rhetoric from McCain, Romney and Cheney Sr. and Jr. and constantly shares articles from David Frum, Bill Kristol, David French, and a host of other neocons, you sure have guts criticizing John.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

You Moosehead-swigging Canucks know nothing about national security since you hide behind Uncle Sam's invincible defense shield.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

You talk tough for a kiddie diddler.

[Mother's Lament]

Shitty redirection attempt. Back to the topic, why are you shitting on John while you're constantly pushing neocon warpigs here?

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

You’re a child molester who worships George Soros.

Fuck off.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

He’s more American than democrat traitor trash like you.

[Mother's Lament]

This is getting psychotic.

NatCons are so irrelevant you could hold a convention for all of them in a McDonalds restroom, and their ideas are about as dangerous to freedom as a fussy librarian. But Reason writes a hysterical article about them twice a week.

Meanwhile the FBI, DOJ and DHS are now running amok and daily breaking every single possible right and freedom American's have, and not a single fucking thing from Reason. Not even from Robby.

I know you fuckers read the comments. I want one of you to explain this to me.

[perlmonger]

Good luck.

"A listener asks if the Roundtable has given the arguments of those opposed to low-skilled immigration a fair hearing."

"Of course we have. Now shut up and stop bitching at us in the comments."

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

To be fair, a movement that consists of about 22 people could well easily feel threatened by a movement that has 21 people in it.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Reason is part of the Cathedral.
At best you’ll hear from one of their socks.

[A Cynical Asshole]

Yeah, but you know what other political party had the word "National" in its name...

[VULGAR MADMAN]

You’re not allowed talk about the word that comes after that.

It would hurt fake libertarians feelings.

[Mother's Lament]

It was the "National" that was the problem. Definitely not the other word.

[TheReEncogitationer]

NatCons are so irrelevant you could hold a convention for all of them in a McDonalds restroom,

Shhhh....Don't give them any ideas. McDonald's are cringey places already.

[Mother's Lament]

McDonald's is tasty but their prices are rapidly entering Michelin resturant dining territory.

[TheReEncogitationer]

I once thought so too on their taste, but as far as ambience, they are most likely to be featured in a Karen or WorldStar video. Also a new medicine has supressed my appetite for a lot of junky stuff.

[Nardz]

https://twitter.com/esaagar/status/1660706773756522502?t=a1Y87TbcedVtU0Re4fgfjA&s=19

The last 72 hours has been the most insane media coverage of the Ukraine war in a while

There has been ZERO scrutiny on the following:

1. UKR suffered a major battlefield loss

2. Biden reversed F-16 policy despite evidence Zelensky wants to use them to attack Russia

3. The Pentagon used an illegal accounting gimmick to circumvent Congress and send 3 billion more to Ukraine

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

They won’t. Like all progs, Reason is completely unaccountable for the shit they do or say.

[Religion and Politics, my life]

THis reminds me of the many versions of things argued to be so clear and rational that you would think there could not be much variety. Natural Law, the Common Good, Originalism. So many examples. So there is only conservative, not natcon or any other misuse of words. IF there is not a core to “conservatism” then natcon might just be serving 2 masters. If the ‘nat’ at all changes or dilutes the ‘con’ we are talking about something like a ‘dog cat’, which whatever it is IS NOT A DOG, IS NOT A CAT

[TheReEncogitationer]

So, a Nickelodeon character? 🙂

CatDog pilot (1997) intro and credits
https://youtu.be/dDtA2Ul3Db0

[Roberta]

But a birdplane is both a bird and a plane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx6hmUv06tg

[mad.casual]

43:53: Weekly Listener Question

Fuck if Suderman doesn’t give the most broadly political and abjectly shitty answer. KMW and Nick at least manage to take it in a “We’ve hosted other views and discussed opposing works.” direction. Suderman goes with “Sure border policy is shit and needs to be fixed and the poster also mentions that immigrants abuse welfare, but that’s a welfare policy, not an immigration policy.” Pete, maybe you’ve never been around bureaucracy or politics before and aren’t aware that everything is always a problem caused by someone else and solved by someone else still… or maybe you are.

Sure, the burglar snuck into the victims house and stole $20 from the safe, but we’re only concerned with how he got onto the property. The fact that he stole $20 is somebody else’s problem to be dealt with at another time.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

“Sure border policy is shit and needs to be fixed and the poster also mentions that immigrants abuse welfare, but that’s a welfare policy, not an immigration policy.”

I was going to listen to that because it piqued my curiosity, but then I realized I didn't want to be annoyed for the rest of the afternoon.

I guess this is the slow, plodding, shambling admission that well, ok, immigrants DO use the welfare system but it's not as bad as you say?

I guess after Jared Polis signed a law allowing them to receive the full benefits of Colorado's welfare system *checks Reason's description* get a business license, then I guess it's getting a little harder to deny.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Yes immigrants can use some parts of the welfare system. They can also provide net economic benefits in many sectors of the economy.

Migrants are just people. Some are good people and some are bad people, just like all people everywhere. It is not true, nor fair, to lump them all as either the death knell of America or the bright diversity savior of America. They are just people who migrate here for various reasons, most of which consist of finding better economic opportunities for themselves and their families.

They’re not angels and they’re not demons. They’re just people.

You demand that we on the more 'open borders' side list all the costs of immigration. Fine. There are costs, some of which are expanded welfare usage by some immigrants. Why don't you try to list some of the benefits of immigration?

[VULGAR MADMAN]

What illegal migrants all have in common is that they’re all criminals.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

... who should be shot on sight just like Ashley Babbitt. Right?

[VULGAR MADMAN]

You of course thought she shouldn’t have been shot right?

Fucking liar.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Are property owners justified in shooting trespassers? Yes or no?
If yes, then the rule applies just as much to Ashley Babbitt as it applies to every other trespasser.
You won't admit it because Ashley Babbitt is a martyr for your team's cause.

[damikesc]

Capitol Police, by any measure known to man, does not OWN the Capitol. Nor does Congress.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

On that day, Jan. 6, the Capitol Police were acting in the role of security guards protecting the property of the Capitol, which is owned by the US Government.

Mall cops don't own the mall, but they are the agents hired by the mall's owners to protect their property. Same deal for the Capitol Police on that day.

[Mother's Lament]

"but they are the agents hired by the mall’s owners"

Who are the Capitol building's owners, Jeff?
Nancy Pelosi? Alphabet, Amazon and Facebook? The FBI and DOJ?

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

You excruciating groomer piece of shit. None of your bullshit justifies Ashli Babbit’s murder by your fellow travelers.

[JesseAz]

Man. So many more bookmarks. Youre literally saying all illegal immigrants could be shot.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

If illegal immigrants deserve to be executed for trespassing, then Ashli Babbitt deserved to be executed for trespassing.

You can't have it both ways.

[Mother's Lament]

"If illegal immigrants deserve to be executed for trespassing"

An argument no one here made. But I guess if you had to actually address our arguments instead of strawmen, you'd be fucked.

[Mother's Lament]

The Capitol is owned by the people, Jeffy. Not the Democratic Party.

[DesigNate]

That’s a marketing gimmick. - jeff

[JesseAz]

I mean you stated clearly all trespassers should be shot.

chemjeff radical individualist 2 years ago
Flag Comment Mute User
What is there to talk about?
.
From a libertarian perspective, Ashli Babbett was trespassing, and the officers were totally justified to shoot trespassers. Again from a libertarian perspective, the officers would have been justified in shooting every single trespasser. That would not have been wise or prudent, of course.
.
They were all trespassers trying to be where they weren’t supposed to be.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Furthermore, do not play this “legal vs illegal” immigration game. Your team has made it quite clear over the past several years that you are opposed to BOTH, or at a bare minimum, sharply reducing legal immigration.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Legal vs illegal is a “game”?

Goddamn you’re stupid.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

The game is when your team pretends that all you are really concerned about is illegal immigration, when by now we all know that is a lie. You are of course opposed to illegal immigration, but that is the "motte" in your motte and bailey argument. Your team is opposed more broadly to most if not all immigration, legal or not, and illegal immigration is just the easiest one to argue against.

[damikesc]

We've had ludicrous levels of immigration for a while now. We have to take the time to accomodate all of these people in the community.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Yup, there it is. It was never about "legal vs illegal". It was instead, always "opposed to most if not all immigration, and let's use illegal immigration as the most visible type that we're opposed to".

[Mother's Lament]

It was always about illegal immigration. You only claim differently because you can’t construct a valid argument for illegal immigration, so you want to pretend opposition to it doesn’t exist.

This type of lazy, cheap sophistry might work for you at HuffPo, but it’s not going to fly here.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

Bullshit. The reason we need a pause is because of open borders idiots like you and your fellow travelers I’m the democrat party. But you’re incapable of having an honest discussion.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

The reason we need a pause is because of open borders idiots like you

Once again. YOU fail to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration. Because THAT WAS NEVER THE REAL GOAL. The real goal was always to reduce ALL immigration, both legal and illegal, and merely to use ILLEGAL immigration as the 'motte' to move the Overton window in your xenophobic direction.

[Mother's Lament]

Once again you're lying about everyone else's argument here, because if you don't lie and assign phony motives, you have to acknowledge you don't have a counter argument and that what Team Blue is doing is very wrong.
So you lie about motives with zero evidence to back your dishonest assertion.

[JesseAz]

Continue digging fat fuck. Good exercise.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD]

No, you’re just a liar. A fatfuck liar, having a tantrum because you can’t have open borders and all the neo Marxism you can eat. Not like those drums of Ben & Jerry’s ice cream you consume at a record pace.

[JesseAz]

And Jeff retreats to lying.

[DesigNate]

You know not everyone who argues with you is a Republican. But god forbid anyone call you a leftist….

Oh, and as I’ve said before, unless you’re a retarded anarchist, governments are going to be defined by their borders and are going to be imbued with the power to enforce those by their citizens. This is just reality, unless you want one world government.

[JesseAz]

Such an economic every country they come from is an economic power house.

You’ve been given so many studies on the realized costs, but you persist.

[Medulla Oblongata]

Soon to be updated to: "Immigrants DO use the welfare system and that's a good thing."

[JesseAz]

Thats a safe issue not a thief issue in your example. Did I get the logic right.

And you're not allowed to mention the costs of illegal immigration as I've said for years. There are zero costs.

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[TJJ2000]

So the conclusion is the Conservatives got almost everything right?
What a funny title for this podcast.

[Nemo Aequalis]

I think it would have been interesting to have had a round table of Guy Lombardo, Perry Como, Lawrence Welk, Doris Day and the Andrews Sisters to discuss if Elvis Presley was getting anything right.

No points for self-awareness here.

[I woke up when Hillary talked about Reconstruction]

You fall under your own stricture. It is quite unclear what you are saying--- but maybe that is why you phrased it that way, a verbal Rohrshach

[But SkyNet is a Private Company]

Have this group of Reasonistas gotten anything right in the last 7 years?

[Religion and Politics, my life]

I am not a NatCon but I saw this today and it means NatCOns are a step up from Pres Stupid and Lazy

Really, isn't this a disgrace
https://twitter.com/i/status/1660385884292673543

[I woke up when Hillary talked about Reconstruction]

Until being a 'national conservative" [ can we define that if we can't define 'invasion'??] involves public adherence to something illegal,this is just cocktail chatter. you don't like someone so you call them a 'national conservative"