Trump's Prosecution Could Be Stymied by the Blurry Line Between Deceit and Self-Delusion
His state of mind when he tried to overturn the outcome of the 2020 election remains a mystery, perhaps even to him.

In a CNN interview on Wednesday, former Attorney General Bill Barr weighed in on the legally crucial question of what Donald Trump was thinking when he engaged in conduct that Special Counsel Jack Smith describes as part of a criminal plot to reverse the outcome of the 2020 presidential election. "At first I wasn't sure," Barr said, "but I have come to believe he knew well he had lost the election."
Michael Wolff, a journalist who wrote a trilogy of books about Trump, is much less sure about that. He argues that the main source of evidence regarding Trump's state of mind—things he has publicly and privately said about the election—is such a confusing jumble that it may be impossible to prove criminal intent. "Does Mr. Trump mean what he says?" Wolff asks in a New York Times essay. "And what exactly does he mean when he says what he says?"
That puzzle is at the center of the case outlined in the federal indictment unsealed this week, which charges Trump with conspiring to defraud the United States, conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiring to deprive Americans of their voting rights. Those charges hinge on the assumption that Trump's claims about the massive fraud that supposedly had deprived him of his rightful victory were "knowingly false." But what Trump knew is a persistent mystery, perhaps even to him.
Consider the notorious January 2, 2021, telephone conversation in which he urged Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to "find" the votes necessary to overturn Joe Biden's victory in that state. Like many of Trump's conversations, Wolff notes, that exchange featured an "unmediated fire hose of verbiage, an unstoppable sequence of passing digressions, gambits and whims, more attuned to the rhythms of his voice than to any obligation to logic or, often, to any actual point or meaning at all." In fact, it is generous even to characterize that seemingly incriminating interaction as a conversation, because Trump did not seem to comprehend or digest what Raffensperger was saying as he patiently debunked one unsubstantiated fraud allegation after another.
Wolff notes that Tony Schwartz, the ghostwriter for Trump's 1987 book The Art of the Deal, thinks his verbal habits are best understood as a salesman's patter. "In other words," Wolff says, "if you took him at his word, you were the fool, and yet, perhaps even more to the point, he succeeds because he comes to believe himself, making him the ultimate fool (as well as the ultimate salesman)."
Trump's "yearslong denial of the 2020 election may be an elaborate fraud, a grifter's denial of the obvious truth, as prosecutors maintain, but if so, he really hasn't broken character the entire time," Wolff writes. "I've had my share of exposure to his fantastic math over the years—so did almost everyone around him at Mar-a-Lago after the election—and I don't know anyone who didn't walk away from those conversations at least a little shaken by his absolute certainty that the election really was stolen from him."
Evidence to the contrary, including the evidence cited in the indictment, frequently proves to be ambiguous upon closer examination. In a 2022 interview with historians, for instance, Trump seemed to concede that Joe Biden had won the 2020 election. Bragging about pressuring South Korean President Moon Jae-in to pay more for his country's defense, Trump said Moon must have been happy "when I didn't win the election." The Guardian highlighted that apparent admission under the headline "'I didn't win the election': Trump admits defeat in session with historians."
But did he? In the same interview, Trump also said the election was "rigged and lost." On the day of the Capitol riot, he claimed, he gave a "very modest" and "very peaceful" speech to more than a "million people" who were inspired by "tremendous love" for him but outraged by an election that was "rigged," "robbed," and "stolen." Those remarks are typical of Trump's ego-flattering, reality-denying rhetoric, which blurs the line between deceit and self-delusion.
Federal prosecutors will try to clarify that line, and Barr thinks Smith has additional evidence that will help them do that. "We're only seeing the tip of the iceberg on this," Barr told CNN. "I think there is a lot more to come, and I think they have a lot more evidence as to President Trump's state of mind."
Maybe. But prosecutors have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt—a daunting task when you are dealing with mental processes that may be as confused, irrational, and inconsistent as the words that reflect them.
"The prosecutors' story of [Trump's] grand scheming will most likely require them to present a figure of the former president—calculated, methodical, knowing and cunning—that none of his supporters or anyone who has ever met him or reasonable jurors and perhaps even the world at large would recognize," Wolff writes. "I can't imagine what will be produced by this dynamic of strait-laced prosecutors versus a preposterous Mr. Trump, his malfeasance always on the edge of farce. But my gut tells me the anti-Trump world could be in for another confounding disappointment."
The best chance to hold Trump accountable for his egregious post-election conduct—including his persistent promotion of the stolen-election fantasy, his attempts at persuading state and federal officials to betray their legal duties by joining his cause, his reckless pre-riot speech, and his inaction after the attack on the Capitol began—was the impeachment that the Senate rejected. Sen. Mitch McConnell (R–Ky.), then the majority leader, said convicting Trump was out of the question because it was unconstitutional to try him after he had left office.
McConnell nevertheless condemned Trump's "disgraceful dereliction of duty," saying he was "practically and morally responsible for provoking" the riot by pushing "increasingly wild myths about a reverse landslide election that was being stolen in some secret coup by our now-president." And he held out the hope that Trump still could be "held accountable" by the "criminal justice system." In light of the challenge that Wolff highlights, that hope seems pretty faint.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
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I'm so utterly fatigued by this crap, I just want to be past it, no matter the outcome. I just want to return to the days when the mainline Libertarian magazine tut-tutted opposition leaders being arrested.
I want to see it past too. But I must vociferously disagree with your assertion that Trump has been arrested. He has not been arrested.
Don't see the assertion that Trump was arrested in Paul's comment. He was, I think, pointing out Reason's continuing decline as a purportedly libertarian publication. Trump showed up. He was fingerprinted, arraigned an released on bail. We can split hairs on whether or not that constitutes an arrest but it doesn't change the fact that this is a political prosecution. Asshole.
It is an arrest. Just on recognizance.
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Yeah, I think bail implies it was an arrest. Bail means you can't leave until bail is paid. If you can't leave, you are under arrest.
It is only a political prosecution because Trump is a politician. There is now way around that. I find the indictment quite refreshing.
Because you support political prosecutions. It isnt a political prosecution because it solely involves a politician. That's your rationalization to ignore unequal application and novel crime creation.
Nobody cares what you think.
I find it ironic that we are condemning Putin for...arresting his political rivals.
Stuff your TDS up your ass; your head wants company.
I support exciting Marxists. That will be quite refreshing. Especially in Rick’s case.
No doubt, you found the Stalinist purges "quite refreshing" too.
No doubt, you found Aryanization "quite refreshing" too.
It's just the kind of person you are.
This latest indictment is the most absurd one yet. It would be good to see more politicians punished for their misdeeds, but this isn't the way.
It's a criminal prosecution, dumbass.
Cite, hicklib?
No, it isn’t. You’re just too much of a stupid Marxist bitch to understand that.
Kill yourself.
Those are not mutually exclusive.
What do you think an indictment is?
"But I must vociferously disagree with your assertion that Trump has been arrested. He has not been arrested."
Being required to appear in court, and being released ONLY at the court's discretion is the DEFINITION of being arrested, by virtue of the command to appear and the lack of freedom to refuse. It is perhaps the most genteel form of arrest, but it IS an arrest.
You can’t just make up your own definition for “arrested”. It has a precise legal meaning.
You can’t make up any of the bullshit you do here daily, but it doesn’t stop you.
Fucking retard.
Now do "woman."
Took two seconds to find it:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/04/04/trump-arrested-arraigned-takeaways/11594611002/
or are you asserting that USAToday made up Trump's arrest?
Yes yes, every time when a member of the opposition party is investigated by the ruling party, it is dangerous banana republic territory that must be avoided.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Jefferson_corruption_case
A "banana republic" would give Trump's actions a free pass. A nation based on the rule of law would investigate and indict.
A “banana republic” would give
Trump’sBiden’s actions a free pass. A nation based on the rule of law would investigate and indict.FIFY.
We slid past banana repuplic awhile ago. We are in a full fledged kleptocracy now.
Complete with the first crime family attacking the ONLY hero standing up for truth justice and the (old) American way.
BTW, WTF happened to Reason?
When did they turn full ding bat commie?
I still have some old copies of Reason articles from YEARS ago that were and still are excellent.
This stuff is CNN grade pure bullshit.
Check out who wrote what. Suspect the writers have changed and been brainwashed by the Democrat narratives.
the ONLY hero standing up for truth justice and the (old) American way.
Yes, that's Trump all right.
Trump, the serial adulterer, the pussy grabber, the Democrat before he was a Republican, the guy who tried to steal land from Vera Coking to build a parking lot for one of his casinos, the guy who declared bankruptcy to stiff his creditors over and over, the guy who swindled average people with "Trump steaks" and "Trump University" selling an image that had no connection with any real underlying value, the guy who shamelessly demagogued against Muslims and Mexicans to win elections, yes, that's the guy who is standing up for the "real American way".
So much bullshit I’m that retard rant. But it doesn’t matter, since you’re already so universally discredited here. Probably every other place you’ve shambled into as well.
So Biden *should* be indicted, although there is no actual, admissible evidence of wrongdoing, but the U.S. is a banana republic for indicting Trump for allegations backed up by both eyewitness testimony and mountains of pretty clear evidence of conspiracy, obstruction, and fraud.
TDS is real. It is just means something utterly different from what those who use it most often think it means.
I must say, I do get a kick out of the idea that Trump's best defense in this case (hey, at least it is a defense!) is that he trusted Sydney Powel and John Eastman and Rudy Giuliani arguing in direct opposition to the experts he had hand-picked to work in government- among them the head of Cyber Security at DHS, whose job and expertise was in election security, among other things. His defense hasn't had to make its case in court yet, but to the media they are already shifting away from arguing that he did *not* do the things he is accused of, but that he listened to the KrakenLady.
His likely defense is literally that he was as dumb and gullible as the rubes who are paying millions of dollars for his defense. He ws duped into thinking he was acting within the scope of the law by those damned clever lawyers.
Trump is not, and never was a conservative. Certainly not Libertarian. He was a vaguely (but registered) NY Democrat, no doubt chosen purely for convenience. He has never had a genuine interest in politics beyond the power afforded with the office. He has always concerned himself with making money, showing off his money, and trying to convince people he is richer than he actually is. That's it. He cares about his brand.
So now the Very Stable Genius has to decide (in this one case) whether to take a plea bargain, argue that the mountains of evidence for obstruction, conspiracy and mens rea are false (a perilous choice for him to even try), or claim he did not know any better. This why he is so profoundly fucked. A plea deal in this case won't have anything to do with the myriad other (and probably even stronger) cases. He will likely lose if tries to claim that the mountains of evidence-- the text messages and emails and audio and video, the testimony and contemporaneous notes from first hand witnesses (and likely co-conspirators) and the predictable, linear story Smith will tell- Trump would have to claim all of that is bullshit. Now that might work over at Newsmax, but it won't work in court. So the best shot he has to stay out of jail is to claim idiocy and I don't see that happening either. It really is a multipolysided fucktagon he's squished himself into this time.
No evidence if one ignores the video evidence of a quid pro quo, multiple SAR from banks about deposits from foreign interests, Joe's involvement in Hunter's business dealings...
Eyewitness testimony…….
No matter what anyone says about the 2020 election, no one can claim in wasn't manipulated. Pennsylvania changed their election procedures by fiat, without going through the legislature. Georgia did sent Republican observers home saying the count was over for the night and then started counting again. There are numerous questions regarding the election which have not been resolved.
There's a reason to go after Trump and most of it has to do with trying to make sure he's unelectable because, if he gets back in and gets to appoint the right people, DOJ/FBI is in trouble. They need the deep state in the Democrats pockets and can't afford any changes.
Don’t forget the edicts the governor of Texas made about drop-off box locations without going through the Texas legislature.
Funny that one didn’t make your list.
You faggots were never going to take Texas. So it’s not even worth tearing you apart over it.
Seriously, kill yourself. I’m not being funny. You are an oxygen thief, and should not continue to live. Do it. You know I’m right. No one could ever possibly love you. Nor are you worthy of such things.
Explains all those lawsuits in Pennsylvania and Georgia where the Republicans asked that their down-ticket candidates who won be subjected to recounts.
Why would you do a recount because of illegal changes to election procedures? Seems like the only recourse to that would either be to have a new election or un-do the changes and do something to make sure it doesn't happen again.
“multipolysided fucktagon he’s squished himself into”
That was brilliant.
And now Trump has gone and made things worse for himself with his boneheaded “IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I’M COMING AFTER YOU!” remark. It must be a nightmare to be the attorney for a client with no self control.
So long as they get paid in advance, they'll be fine!
No, Biden is the president. He can't be indicted. Impeachment is an option, though. And I'd say that even without the family corruption stuff there is a valid case for impeachment based on all of his repeated and willful unconstitutional actions like eviction moratorium, loan forgiveness, vaccine mandates, etc.
there is no actual, admissible evidence of wrongdoing,
Dude, I've seen him on video bragging about withholding aid money to Ukraine unless they fired the prosecutor who was investigating the company that was paying millions in bribes to Biden through his degenerate scumbag of a son.
You're very long-winded, and utterly wrong.
-jcr
They don't understand that this persecution only makes it more likely Trump was right about 2020 being stolen by hook and crook.
You don't clutch at this straw unless you're afraid that you're gonna get caught. Once history has come to the conclusion that 2020 was stolen, the Ds will whine, "what difference, at this point, does it make?"
If they were smart, they would have just let Trump have his second term, and beat Pence to bits in 2024. Instead, they decided no action was too immoral or illegal to steal the election.
A nation based on the rule of law would investigate and indict independent of political party. But the fact is that Biden, Obama, Bush, and the Clintons have done far worse than Trump and have not been charged or even seriously investigated.
THAT is what makes this a banana republic.
Well, that and people deciding that corruption by one side justifies corruption by the other.
Well, that's because under the rule of law, it does: if some form of "corruption" is legal for one political party, it of course ought to be legal for the other political party.
What is wrong with you that you think that justice should depend on party affiliation?
A banana republic has thousands of hundred page long vague laws and regulations to be used whenever they want to against whomever they want to in order to keep people cowed out of fear that if they stick their necks out they could be next. Oh, wait … that’s the United States today. My bad …
It's a banana republic because there IS a "ruling party." It's a banana republic because the parties keep switching power but nothing really ever changes. Free people don't NEED a ruling party. Free people need a limited-authority, limited-power government to enforce the equal rights of all the people. Only people who want to seize power so they can inflict their will or grab some wealth - or both - need a ruling party. When the parties switch power it makes sense to investigate corruption by the previous ruling party only if there are a few, clearly written, unambiguous laws defining what criminal activities are forbidden; and only if they are equally applied to all suspects, with the understanding that the "other party" will do the same when the power changes hands next time. If you think that's what we have now, then it perfectly explains the sorry state of affairs America is in now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_federal_politicians_convicted_of_crimes
Here's a list of American federal politicians who have been convicted of crimes. Why don't you tell us which of these were "political prosecutions" and which were just.
You're clearly having trouble figuring out the difference in scope and measure between rando politicians convicted of varying crimes like bribery, murder, rape, corruption etc., and a national opposition leader being accused of insurrection in an election year under very suspicious circumstances using a dizzying array of novel techniques and legal readings of obscure statutes.
Trump's not being accused of doing thrill-seeker liquor store holdups with a born-to-lose tattoo on his arm.
No no, it’s totes the same. Thinking differently just proves you’re a MAGA Republican.
It's not terribly different.
It’s not terribly different.
Narrator: It is, in fact, terribly different… But “stupid” people are often confused and their misunderstanding is, ironically, very understandable…
(Please read that in a Morgan Freeman voice in your own head. Otherwise it’s not exactly what I intended.)
My narrator voice is always the one from Idiocracy.
A great movie that was supposed to be satire but has unfortunately become far too close to a documentary...
Okay, got it. All of the others were legit, it's just Trump's prosecution which is the political one. I'm sure they would all disagree, but whatevs.
accused of insurrection
This claim is false.
under very suspicious circumstances
What are the "very suspicious circumstances" in your view? The charges are happening soon after the Jan. 6 committee ended. Should they have happened before?
a dizzying array of novel techniques and legal readings of obscure statutes
What are the novel techniques? Using an independent prosecutor? Using a grand jury?
The Espionage Act and Obstruction of Justice are hardly "obscure".
And I don't know - you seem to be saying that if an opposition leader commits a new type of crime, that he/she should be allowed to get away with it because otherwise he/she would be prosecuted with "novel techniques" under "obscure statutes". No previous president has done what Trump did before in trying to stay in power after the election. I have my doubts as to whether what he did was actually a criminal offense. I can see how some might think it is, though, and I don't think it is fair to dismiss their argument solely because it is a new type of prosecution.
The way they are being applied to Trump certainly is.
Judged by the same standards, half a dozen prominent politicians should be in jail.
What makes this so outrageous is the SELECTIVE investigation and prosecution.
Well, that's a surprising admission: "Judged by the same standards", Trump should be in jail, too.
Yes, it's just outrageous that only Trump can't get away with committing crime!
If the laws were applied uniformly, these laws would have been abolished long ago, because they are arbitrary and pointless. Instead, they are on the books precisely for the persecution of political opponents.
Yes, that is indeed outrageous.
What kind of a--hole do you have to be to think that it is OK to give members of one political party a free pass on violating the law?
And - let's just be honest here - I think you are so desperate to "stick it" to the establishment, that you will do everything you can to frame Trump's prosecution as if it were Maduro prosecuting the mayor of Caracas, or Putin prosecuting Navalny - actual thugs performing actual political prosecutions in the service of power, not justice - because you want the establishment to lose even if it means Trump gets away with crimes.
Here, here! Dare I say, you make a very Reason(able) assertion. It’s a bitter shame that so many people believe being a modern-day Libertarian requires a signed “Trump apologist” addendum.
Libertarianism absolutely requires supporting every state attack against Trump. No looking at actions or facts! Support the state! Support institutions! Accept government truth! - the true libertarians.
jesse is very angry tonight.
No, that's just your reflection, dork.
There is nary a difference in Putin and Biden in terms of their behavior towards political rivals.
Not a difference.
Biden is worse than Putin
He can go anywhere.
Jeff will never admit that novel constructions of the law used against an opposition party solely is an abuse. He will never admit that going after a man in search of a crime is an abuse. Jeff isn't a libertarian. He is a leftist who tries to create a veneer of a libertarian argument against his leftist narratives.
Another thing Jeff won't be able to explain is how Al Gore going to courts to count hanging chads and dimples as votes was not an attempt at fraud. But asking for validity of a vote is, literally what Gore was attempting by having a different way of counting votes (and initially only in democrat heavy voting precincts)
Seems like there is plenty of evidence and the grand jury was convinced. Does anyone think Trump didn't commit some sort of crime?
Your last sentence is the proof of your bias.
So in your view of legal jurisprudence a grand jury convicts and is correct 100% of the time. Interesting.
That ham sandwich was guilty as sin!
“Does anyone think Trump didn’t commit some sort of crime?”
Maybe just wave a TDS flag?
Just like he colluded with Russia.
“Show me the man…”
“Too Big to Fail”
Remind me again Jeff, what was your opinion on Trump's phone call with Ukraine that lead to his first impeachment?
Not enough Ben & Jerry’s?
How may of them were the most popular presidential candidate at the time? All the people screeching about democracy seem to be putting a lot of effort into making sure a large part of the electorate can't vote for their preferred candidate.
Can we also return to the days when they didn't accept government narratives as truth and questioned outcomes of the government investigating themselves?
And you think that is what will happen if Trump returns to power?
That's what the left is hoping - that you'll simply give up. Standard totalitarian tactic.
The election was fraudulent. That is no longer in question. You may reasonably argue about the relative contributions of the refusal of States to diligently compare signatures vs the inescapably vast conspiracy between our government agencies and media to engage in election interference, but no sane person can still say the 2020 election was on the up and up. Multiple surveys have revealed that JUST the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop altered the outcome.
Trump is no angel. Legitimate criticism abounds. Yet what we are seeing from the rest of our government is a level of massive atrocities making 1933 Germany look like Boy Scout camp.
Don't get tired. Get even. Help slash the swamp.
an elaborate fraud, a grifter's denial of the obvious truth, as prosecutors maintain, but if so, he really hasn't broken character the entire time,"
That's Donnie.
You just described yourself pretty well there, other than the pederast part.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
https://twitter.com/Peoples_Pundit/status/1687535641607733269?t=AnqDlk92swLgAnmabnBWqQ&s=19
So, here they are admitting the prosecution of Donald Trump is to prevent him from winning a legitimate election. If he's not convicted, they are justifying illegitimate action.
"MSNBC's Doris Kearns Goodwin: If Trump isn't convicted, "then it's going to take ... organizing the country at all the levels so he cannot win an election"
[Video]"
Hyper-rational Sam Harris must be very happy right now.
It is unpossible that someone as brain-smart as Sam Harris had his mind broken by a “Bad Orange Man” ™…
Who is the "they" here? It's one woman talking, a woman with literally no authority whatsoever to do anything to Trump.
No no, you have to understand the playbook here. Any outrageous statement made by anyone in the opposition is taken to be representative of the whole so as to be used as rhetorical fodder for your team to further your team's victimhood complex.
Bookmarking this comment.
Go right ahead. Do you think I do this?
You absolutely do this.
Oh I am known to mock individual Republican statements for sure. But I am generally quite careful not to say that they represent all Republicans everywhere.
On the other hand, when Nardz above quotes Doris Goodman, and suggests that her opinion represents the whole opposition everywhere, where is the condemnation?
First, half of what Nardz posts is the full text of the tweet he links, so I don’t necessarily judge the post until he gives his opinion on it.
Second, because I’ve interacted with enough leftists to know they hive mind a lot of shit like this. So what you may call fringe views on the left get mainstreamed a lot faster and a lot more frequently than fringe views on the right. This may be a function of our current culture, or just perceived bias because of the mostly left media/social media I consume.
I see. So broad-brush generalizations about THEM is totally fine but broad-brush generalizations about YOU is out of bounds.
I mean yes, obviously. /s
But seriously, it’s not a broad brush generalization when someone can show multiple instances of different leftist from around the country all espousing the same thing (not saying this post did that, though I’m sure I could pick any random non-sexy subreddit and find similar statements/sentiment, probably even on r/libertarian). But like I said, I consume a lot more left media than right media, so that could totally be a factor.
Fatfuck, the only republicans you approve of are RINO’s who go on CNN and MSNBC and trash real republicans. Don’t pretend you are anything other than a leftist. You are a creature of the democrats.
Better yet, when are you going to start criticizing the right-of-center people around here for some of their more distasteful habits, such as for example, Nardz's repeated calls for violence?
FWIW, I don’t tend to engage any of the violence rhetoric by ANY posters as I assume it’s meant to rile people up and ruffle feathers.
I fully admit my biases lead me to engage and comment more against the left leaning posters than the right/libertarian leaning ones. There’s probably multi-factor reasons for that, that I’ll need to explore some other time.
It’d be nice if others could admit to their biases too…
Jeff and Mike are the two true libertarians. Just because they align with leftist narratives 100% of the time doesn't change that.
You forgot Sarc. He's the "one true libertarian" as well.
Sarc disagreed with Mike on turducken being a GMO for 5 minutes the other day. He is only 99.99% libertarian now.
Could've fooled me. He was the one triggered when I used the phrase "one true libertarian" yesterday, even though I never mentioned any of them by name.
Those who invoke the language of “leftist” and “righteous” and ignore a person’s actions simply out of adoration for that individual are what we call religious zealots. I think “Reason” runs directly counter to “true-belief.”
Lol. Never call someone a leftist but if you dont support every trump indictment you're a zealot. Go with that. Hilarious.
FWIW, I don’t tend to engage any of the violence rhetoric by ANY posters as I assume it’s meant to rile people up and ruffle feathers.
By not calling it out, you have a hand in normalizing it. And Nardz will not listen to me about it.
>>have a hand in normalizing it
disagree with 114% of what you type but only respond about once a month do I need to do more?
If you think the tone of my rhetoric is so bad that it is akin to advocating violence, then you do what you think you must.
Lmao, you’re a clown, Lying Jeffy.
I don’t call out Misek’s holocaust denial every time he does it either, so no, it’s not “normalizing” it.-
Silence is violence! Perfect comment from the resident sophist.
Your fellow travelers are extremely violent. Anything we do is now self defense, you fatfuck pedo adjacent piece of shit.
Yeah, Goodwin exists in a vacuum and her views have nothing to do with anyone else's views or intentions.
As Tim Pool pointed out, if they REALLY thought Trump did what they say they think he did --- why is he not in prison?
He has a private jet. He has properties outside the US. In what way is he not a flight risk?
Where would he go?
The comment you replied to says he has properties outside the US... Maybe he would go somewhere... Outside.. the... US...?
Well, there is at least one fairly modern country I can think of without an extradition treaty with the US...
In short, Trump was either criminal in behavior, or self-delusional. Either way not fit for office. The only way to see him as fit is to agree with him that he really did win the election. Which is demonstrably false to all but his true believers.
+1
The fact that you have to drive at the political end is the entire problem here. He IS being criminally prosecuted, therefore, if what he did isn't criminal, it's a very questionable prosecution. You can think he's a shitty candidate, you can claim he's unfit for high office, but those are political questions that should be answered in the political process. What's instead happening is a criminal justice process.
It's why people like me, who have never voted for Trump and will never vote for Trump, are constantly coming to Trump's defense. There seems to be a criminalization of political ideas, when we should be using political processes to answer those questions.
Except crime should not be political. Maybe one can argue that what he did (obstruction of justice, theft of national documents, etc) should not be a crime, but currently it is. So this is a criminal prosecution, not a political prosecution. And to be fair, ditto for Hillary destroying her server. They broke the law.
Now do I think imprisonment is warranted? No I do not. For political reasons I would prefer a censure and disbarment from public office, and not jail time.
It shouldn’t be political but it obviously is here. It is selective execution of the laws and novel construction that even legal theorists on the left question. This latest batch is literally criminalizing speech and thought. Jack Smith didn’t even wait to read the Kerik memos which are entirely exculpatory evidence of Trump believing there was voter fraud.
Look some of you assholes believe there was zero fraud which is more delusional than trump. Some of you believe there is no widespread fraud which is at best a bald assertion. But you treat it all as truth blindly without actual evidence. And before jeff chimes in, recounting fraudulent votes isnt looking into if a vote was valid. But you blindly repeat that as the truth.
Odd enough you are accepting the criminal prosecution to literally reach a political end as you admit to in your final paragraph. At no point do you ever accept that a government who investigated themselves found zero evidence despite how many times this has proven to be false.
zero fraud
strawman
no widespread fraud which is at best a bald assertion
no - that is the most reasonable conclusion based on the best available evidence.
recounting fraudulent votes isnt looking into if a vote was valid.
There has not been evidence presented to date that has shown large numbers of fraudulent votes that were cast in the election sufficient to change the outcome.
Nice way to yank quotes out of context, dipshit. I can do it to you too.
reasonable
Reasonable? Nah, Jeffy, you lack anything remotely near that.
fraudulent votes
Well, I'm glad we can agree that some of the votes were indeed fraudulent.
See, you look different when I fail to take your spiel into context and quote the whole thought. One might say that using a part of the comment is disingenuous.
In Georgia, tens of thousands of votes, as recorded by their mailed-in envelopes, were illegal, when the addresses were compared to USPS data.
Those included votes from people, whose address had changed, but still voted at the previous address, some of which had moved outside of the state, which was illegal.
These votes would have been enough to change the outcome in that state, but, because the ballots had been separated from the envelopes, it was impossible to remove their votes, and determine for whom they had voted.
The included ballots should never have been counted.
Do you think Georgia was unique in this category?
How many other states had this issue.
Then there was the vast discrepancy between the number of mailed-in votes, that were rejected for errors.
In past elections, the rejection rate was in the area of between 5 and 10 percent.
In this election, where most votes were cast in this manner, by people, who had never done it before, the rates were in the area of less than 1%.
Does it make sense that so many were error-free considering the newness of the process?
Once again, there was no way, nor did anyone try, to look at these incomprehensible figures.
That's the count, is what we were told, and you are a criminal if you don't believe us.
In Georgia, tens of thousands of votes, as recorded by their mailed-in envelopes, were illegal, when the addresses were compared to USPS data.
That claim comes from Matt Braynard's data, which is garbage.
https://www.ajc.com/politics/5-georgia-election-fraud-claims-explained/HG7LECMRRZGBNH6VNLYI4H5R6A/
YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TO.
Serious question: how do you know you haven't been lied to? Why do you think the bullshit propaganda that you find convincing is better than the bullshit propaganda others find convincing?
Chemleft Lying Fucktard needs a lethal beating. Hopefully he'll save us the effort and go drown himself like Ophelia. Just shoot up and go for a swim, Jeffy! Do the species a solid.
Except crime should not be political.
Thrilled we can agree.
Maybe one can argue that what he did (obstruction of justice, theft of national documents, etc) should not be a crime, but currently it is.
What he's accused of doing. Except that he didn't commit theft of documents, he maintained possession of documents that he was allowed to possess at one point but then was (arguably) not allowed to possess. And it's questionable whether this is even a crime based on existing case law from the Bill Clinton presidency-the authority of the president to designate what constitutes a personal record versus a presidential record cannot be disputed. That's how things have been ruled in past cases, so Trump's possession of those documents may not even be a crime.
So this is a criminal prosecution, not a political prosecution.
For political reasons I would prefer a censure and disbarment from public office, and not jail time.
So you don't think this is a political prosecution, and yet, your desire is to see him barred from public office. Forgive me if I see some mixed messages in your motives here. One might wonder if there's the same political motivation behind the prosecutions, more interested in preventing him from holding office than actually pursuing justice.
But isn’t selective application of the law against your political opponents THE shining beacon of political prosecution and a hallmark of banana republic’s?
What makes crimes political is when one side of the political spectrum gets indicted for the same things done by members of the other side, that don't get indicted.
Every Jan6 indictment, and conviction, is political, when compared to the 2020 summer of riots, and the way those illegal acts were dealt with.
Everything Trump is being charged with has been done by numerous LieCheatSteal party members, who not only don't get charged, but are celebrated for their activities.
What makes crimes political is when one side of the political spectrum gets indicted for the same things done by members of the other side, that don’t get indicted.
So as I said below, details don't matter, only broad superficial similarities between members of different tribes.
Biden had classified documents and Trump had classified documents. Since one is Team Blue and one is Team Red, if one gets away with it, the other gets away with it. Is that how it works? And we completely ignore the details, like Biden cooperating with the authorities to return the documents while Trump defying a subpoena and instructing his lawyers to lie about having returned all the documents. We ignore that. Right?
Every Jan6 indictment, and conviction, is political, when compared to the 2020 summer of riots, and the way those illegal acts were dealt with.
So again we completely ignore all the details and individuals involved, all we care about is that these two events happened within about six months of each other and involved the two different tribes rioting. It doesn't matter that one tribe tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power but the other tribe didn't. It doesn't matter that the INDIVIDUALS involved should be held accountable for their own INDIVIDUAL acts, only that they be lumped together as a group and treated as members of a tribal identity. Is that what you are saying here?
Biden's documents were never from a situation, where he could declassify, thus were illegal, and had been for years.
Does a bank robber get off scott free , if he just gives back the money, because he cooperated?
Trump was in a legal dispute with the National Archives, yet the resolution was not allowed to play out, in court before he was charges for not cooperating.
No one on Jan6 was in any situation to be able to stop the peaceful transfer of power, nor were the vast majority charged with that.
In the "summer of love" thousands of acts of violence, against police were committed, and hardly anyone was charged, let alone tracked-down nationwide, with banks turning over financial data to determine if they were in the area.
Yes, one tribe being treated differently than the other is decidedly what makes this two tiered "justice" system poltical.
A legal dispute of the PRA which was a civil issue. Trump was working just as slowly as every prior president. On top of that the judicial branch in the Clinton case cited the PRA as giving sole authority to the president to determine personal records. I can post the decision again when Jeff denies it again.
On top of that the judicial branch in the Clinton case cited the PRA as giving sole authority to the president to determine personal records.
Yes - *when the record is first created*. The President cannot later change a presidential record into a personal record without going through a record-keeping process. So all of those documents involving military action against Iran, they were obviously not "personal records" when created and the President could not then later change them into "personal records" without a paper trail to document it.
God damn. I usually ignore your retarded ignorant ass but Jack Smith listed the documents in question and there was no documents about Iran in the list you retarded sea lion. But the media stated there was and pushed a narrative, and you ran with it. Amazing.
No paper trail is required you retarded sea lion. Clinton never had a paper trail of what he chose to keep as personal records. Neither did Obama. It is not required in the PRA. Here is the judge on the matter you retarded sea lion.
U.S. District Judge Amy Berman Jackson in Washington D.C. ultimately rejected Judicial Watch’s suit by concluding there was no provision in the Presidential Records Act to force the National Archives to seize records from a former president.
.
“Under the statutory scheme established by the PRA, the decision to segregate personal materials from Presidential records is made by the President, during the President’s term and in his sole discretion,” Jackson wrote in her March 2012 decision, which was never appealed.
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/all-things-trump/old-case-over-audio-tapes-bill-clintons-sock-drawer-could-impact
This is why you’re not worth interacting with because you’re nothing but a repeater of what you read in the Daily Beast and are an ignorant moron.
I'll even clarify for your ignorant ass. Since you're talking about the discussion with the reporter. He said "the papers" when referring to a story about Gen Milley New Yorker story from the prior weekend. When he says the paper he is using the common euphemism for newspapers. This is why Jack Smith never listed them in the specified documents. Jack Smith counted on the retardation of people like you to draw a conclusion without inspection. Jack Smith was right to rely on retards like you, Jeff.
Hey, moron, you lied and misrepresented my position, which is what you do all the fucking time.
This is what the PRA actually says:
https://www.archives.gov/about/laws/presidential-records.html#2201
(b) Documentary materials produced or received by the President, the President’s staff, or units or individuals in the Executive Office of the President the function of which is to advise or assist the President, shall, to the extent practicable, be categorized as Presidential records or personal records upon their creation or receipt and be filed separately.
So when the record is created or received, that is when the record is classified as presidential or personal. To switch the classification:
and there is this whole process on how to do this. So the president cannot just decide to get rid of a presidential record without a paper trail.
In the Clinton case, Clinton decided that a certain set of recordings was a personal record, and Judicial Watch wanted the Archivist to reclassify the recordings as a presidential record, and the judge said that the court had no power to do that. That case is different than the case at hand.
So all of the documents at issue here, they were clearly classified as presidential documents when they were first created - let's be honest, a "document dated May 3, 2018, concerning White House intelligence briefing relating to various foreign countries" very likely does not fall under the PRA definition of a "personal record" - he didn't change the classification of the record, so it remained a presidential record, and it should have been returned to the government. This really isn't that difficult to understand.
You are the one who is uninformed. Have you read the actual indictment? Have you read the actual text of the PRA? Have you read the actual text of NARA v. JW? Or are you just relying on what your right-wing media masters are telling you about it? Is it just a really huge coincidence that your conclusions JUST SO HAPPEN to mirror Trump's arguments as to why he thinks he is totally innocent? Is that just a really strange and weird coincidence? Or is it because you are ignorant of the primary sources, and you get your information instead from Trump and his media sycophants and so all you do is parrot his propaganda?
Trump should be in jail for the library books he failed to return.
Right, Jeffie?
Trump should have acted like a decent human being and return the documents that weren't his when he had the opportunity to do so in a cooperative and respectful manner.
Oh, also note that Jesse never responded to my very well researched response to his post full of lies.
Biden’s documents were never from a situation, where he could declassify, thus were illegal, and had been for years.
Does a bank robber get off scott free , if he just gives back the money, because he cooperated?
HISTORICALLY, the Archives treated this situation more like an overdue library book, not like stolen money. Just return the book and all is forgiven. Ask yourself, why did everyone else, EVEN OTHER REPUBLICANS, get treated respectfully? It's because they cooperated. But not Trump. He jerked them around and played games with them.
That’s great except wasn’t he charged under the Espionage Act, which very much does not have a whoopsies clause?
It does not. But chem jeff ignorant sea lion will pretend there is an escape clause.
Boy, doesn't it suck for Trump that he let it get so out of hand. Every other president and vice-president was willing to play nice and cooperate with NARA and return the documents and come to an amicable agreement. But not Trump. Even the FUCKING ARCHIVIST is supposedly a part of the Deep State out to get him now.
Let’s take at face value that his slow walking the documents back to NARA should have prompted some legal action. The idea that it required PROSECUTION under the Espionage Act and not some civil suit is fucking delirious.
And obviously he’s NOT the only one who took longer than the Archivist thought he should or we wouldn’t have that Clinton decision to use in this discussion.
As for the non-president people who so quickly returned documents: they had no disputed authority to posses them so they should have all had the book thrown at them.
Let’s take at face value that his slow walking the documents back to NARA should have prompted some legal action. The idea that it required PROSECUTION under the Espionage Act and not some civil suit is fucking delirious.
If the records at issue were of some mundane bureaucratic matter I might agree with you. But they weren't, they were of classified military and intelligence matters. I cannot say that demanding prosecution under this specific statute is THE MOST appropriate remedy, but I can certainly understand demanding the urgent return of very sensitive and classified documents.
And obviously he’s NOT the only one who took longer than the Archivist thought he should or we wouldn’t have that Clinton decision to use in this discussion.
As for the non-president people who so quickly returned documents: they had no disputed authority to posses them so they should have all had the book thrown at them.
And this is where details and mens rea matters here. Clinton (Bill) and Pence and Biden and Obama and Bush and all the others cooperated and worked with the Archivist to return the documents that were at issue, or at least negotiated in good faith to come to some agreement. Sure, technically, as of the day after their terms ended, the government could have thrown the book at ALL of them for taking documents that they weren't supposed to have. But the government didn't because they chose to treat the matter more like an overdue library book rather than a theft of state secrets. Because the government gave the benefit of the doubt to Obama, Pence, Bush, Biden, etc., that they were acting in good faith. But Trump, BY HIS OWN ACTIONS, demonstrated that he did not DESERVE the assumption of the benefit of the doubt. He stonewalled them, he deliberately moved boxes around to hide them from the investigators, he tried to assert bullshit claims of privilege, he was very clearly acting in bad faith.
How much grace do you extend to someone who continues to treat you like shit? At what point do you say "fuck it, he's breaking the rules, let the authorities deal with his bullshit"?
No one on Jan6 was in any situation to be able to stop the peaceful transfer of power, nor were the vast majority charged with that.
In the “summer of love” thousands of acts of violence, against police were committed, and hardly anyone was charged, let alone tracked-down nationwide, with banks turning over financial data to determine if they were in the area.
Yes, one tribe being treated differently than the other is decidedly what makes this two tiered “justice” system poltical.
But you are the one treating the crimes as being committed by tribes and not by individuals.
"Hardly anyone" was charged, huh?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/investigations/george-floyd-protesters-arrests/
So, according to the Washington Post - whom you would probably think is undercounting the total - 2,652 people were charged with crimes relating to the George Floyd protests. Which is definitely more than the number of people charged with crimes associated with Jan. 6.
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/25/1165022885/1000-defendants-january-6-capitol-riot
As of Mar. 25, there have been 1,018 people charged with crimes associated with Jan. 6. 445 have been sentenced, and 58 have been sentenced to prison time.
So you were saying?
Which is definitely more than the number of people charged with crimes associated with Jan. 6.
This is extremely fucking dense of you. One crowd in DC during one day of rioting compared to multiple cities of riots across multiple days. Do you think there might be a disparity when it comes to percentages? To the number of Feds involved in the crowds and inciting them? To the severity of charges in comparison to the types and amount of damages?
To be fair jeff even thinks killing protestors at J6 was libertarian.
chemjeff radical individualist 2 years ago
Flag Comment Mute User
What is there to talk about?
From a libertarian perspective, Ashli Babbett was trespassing, and the officers were totally justified to shoot trespassers. Again from a libertarian perspective, the officers would have been justified in shooting every single trespasser. That would not have been wise or prudent, of course.
They were all trespassers trying to be where they weren’t supposed to be.
“the number of Feds involved in the crowds and inciting them”
Evidence there were any?
Yes. Evidence you've been given a couple dozen times. Story has a link to the court admittance of officers in the crowd. There is also video of cops encouraging activity.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/us/prosecutor-admits-dc-police-officers-acted-as-provocateurs-at-us-capitol-on-jan-6-5148808
I honestly don't believe you when you ask this question.
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2023/04/06/at-least-40-undercover-informants-were-doing-surveillance-on-jan-6-defense-lawyer-says-1347770/
Took me about three seconds to find an article.
"epoch times" lol
And it was over 50. Perhaps well over because there were a ton of Capitol Hill police undercover and their own informants, and there's suspected to be more Secret Service informants and UCs who haven't been disclosed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XApd_QWSRw
LOL, another 30-minute video.
Why do conspiracy theorists love video so much. Oh, yeah, I've talked about that. Makes it easier to obfuscate, harder for someone to refute the points vaguely made.
Got any written sources?
You were provided 2 articles white Mike. You always seem to choose ignorance. A common traits among you, jeff, and sarc.
I’ll tell you what. If you don’t have any written sources, please give me time stamps that require me to watch no more than 5 minutes of your video, and I promise I’ll watch that 5 minutes.
I’ll tell you what. If you don’t have any written sources, please give me time stamps that require me to watch no more than 5 minutes of your video, and I promise I’ll watch that 5 minutes.
Have you tried watching the first 30 seconds of the video? It’s on youtube, you can even play it at double speed. It’s just a lawyer going through a court filing.
But if you don’t want to watch that, how about this article?
https://www.dailywire.com/news/proud-boys-defense-attorney-claims-50-informants-revealed-in-january-6-case
And of course Mike continues to ignore 3 articles while he complained of the video which told him about the court filing in the first minute.
So, the Proud Boys defense lawyer is your source? There were FBI informants in the rioting crowd because he says there were?
Read the article you just asked me to read: the defense lawyer doesn’t even claim they were FBI agents.
Homeland Security probably did have some informants implanted among the Proud Boys. That doesn’t mean they were at the January 6th riots, or encouraged or led the rioting.
Each and every person who chose to riot at the Capitol that day has one person to blame for their criminal decision: themself.
Mike, this is why you are made fun of and disrespected about asking for citations. You are given then, you find ways to ignore them, then when finally backed into a corner find bullshit reasons to dismiss them. That filing is the state admitting to having officers. So you use equivocation and shit weasel actions about which department instead of just admitting you were wrong and ignorant.
This is extremely fucking dense of you.
Oh give me a fucking break. I'm responding to someone who claimed that "hardly anyone" was charged for crimes associated with George Floyd riots. And it's your team which constantly wants to compare the George Floyd riots with the Jan. 6 riots. Tell me, is the number 2,652 larger than the number 1,018? Yes or no?
Maybe compare one day of riots to one day of riots to get a better comparison?
Maybe, stop trying to move the goalposts.
retiredfire claimed "hardly anyone" was charged in relation to the George Floyd protests.
I showed that not only was that statement false, but that there were MORE people charged than those connected to the Jan. 6 riots.
And then you all decided "not a fair comparison!!!!" Well okay but that wasn't the original claim.
Are you going to admit that the original claim - that "hardly anyone" was charged in connection with the George Floyd riots - was false?
I didn’t move shit as it wasn’t my claim.
However; I will say that in relation to the number of people protesting in either scenario, one could definitely qualify those numbers as “hardly anyone”.
(Oh, and that’s a nice bit of collectivization there, Mr. Individualist.)
What evidence is there that Biden returned anything?
That Biden's DoJ isn't trying to indict Biden?
https://archive.is/HDAka
You make an attempt to be even-minded by saying Hillary should be prosecuted also, and that Trump should only be publicly flogged by not put in prison.
It must be hard to make that strong of attempt at reasoning yet still miss 99% of the obvious facts. Hillary was SOS, Biden and Pence were VPs, Comey was head of the FBI, but the guy that actually had the right to declassify documents and hold them even after leaving office is the only one that gets prosecuted. It takes a metric shit ton of stupid to get past that obvious bias.
Your statement also implies you have no problem with the current indictment which not only criminalizes free speech, and a legal right to pursue means to see that the vote was fair, but far, far, far worse has been done by dozens, hundreds, thousands? of pols prior to this. It is rank stupidity to suggest that anyone who believes that an election was not conducted openly and honestly and makes attempts to get clarity should be prosecuted.
Progtards are all in on destroying our country in order to save it from Trump, who in reflection was a pretty good President, and reduced the size and power of government which would be directly aligned with the Libertarian goal, and as anti-fascist as you can rule.
Most of the time I try to decided if some commenters on here, most mainstream reporters, and of course Dem pols are ignorant or stupid. But the only reasonable answer is porque no los dos? Anyone who says chemical castration for children is gender affirming care is a liar. Anyone who says that removing explicit sexual books from grade school is book burning is a liar. Anyone who continues to believe that Biden wasn't and isn't complicit with Hunter's shakedown racket is a liar, because if they really think otherwise they would be too stupid to breathe.
Therefore, the known suspects on here know quite clearly they are liars. Their affiliation with Team Blue by either payment, or tribal allegiance allows them to lie with impunity and only feel mildly like shit on a daily basis. It has been interesting to watch Bari, Sasha Stone, Taibbi, and even people like Joe Rogan, and Russell Brand to start realizing they have been lied to daily and restricted from ever seeing the truth. It gives me a small amount of hope.
Sure. If you blindly accept the government presentation of facts as unbridled truths. Your assertion requires a blind acceptance of what the truth actually is.
“Delusional,” eh?
– “Where’s Jackie?”
-“America is a nation that can be defined in a single word: Asufutimaehaehfutbw.” “….we ended cancer”
-“Cornpop was a bad dude.”
-"It's hard to tell really. But [Putin is] clearly losing the war in Iraq.
-“Put a pistol on a brace, and it ma- — turns into a gun. Makes them where you can have a higher-caliber weapon — a higher-caliber bullet coming out of that gun.”
-“Joey, they love each other.”
-“I went to law school on a full academic scholarship, the only one in my class who had a full academic scholarship,” Biden said. “The first year in law school, I decided I didn’t want to be in law school and ended up in the bottom two-thirds of my class. And then decided I wanted to stay, went back to law school and, in fact, ended up in the top half of my class.”
-“…graduated with three degrees from undergraduate school.”
-“I have six grandchildren.”
-"“You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”
"In short, Trump was either criminal in behavior, or self-delusional..."
He's guilty of being Donald Trump and you're guilty of a raging case of TDS, shit pile.
That is for voters to decide, not you.
And it is people like you who are delusional. While Biden is certainly the legitimate president of the US (i.e., legally, as the outcome of the legal system), the facts are clear: Democrats used unlawful means to manipulate the 2020 election, billionaire donors used unfair means to manipulate the 2020 election, and we got the legal outcome we have largely because there is no clear legal way of dealing with such issues in US elections and courts were therefore unwilling to act.
In other democracies, the 2020 election would simply have been redone within a few months. But under US law, that simply isn't available as a remedy. Instead, fools like you cling to the absurd belief that US elections are perfect.
Either he is lying, or he is delusional.
Either way, he shouldn't be re-elected.
Then don't vote for him, twit, instead of cheering on his political persecution.
But how would jeff warn all the other future candidates not to run who don't support the deep state apparatus?
Most secure election evah!
“Delusional,” eh?
– “Where’s Jackie?”
-“America is a nation that can be defined in a single word: Asufutimaehaehfutbw.” “….we ended cancer”
-“Cornpop was a bad dude.”
-“It’s hard to tell really. But [Putin is] clearly losing the war in Iraq.
-“Put a pistol on a brace, and it ma- — turns into a gun. Makes them where you can have a higher-caliber weapon — a higher-caliber bullet coming out of that gun.”
-“Joey, they love each other.”
-“I went to law school on a full academic scholarship, the only one in my class who had a full academic scholarship,” Biden said. “The first year in law school, I decided I didn’t want to be in law school and ended up in the bottom two-thirds of my class. And then decided I wanted to stay, went back to law school and, in fact, ended up in the top half of my class.”
-“…graduated with three degrees from undergraduate school.”
-“I have six grandchildren.”
-““You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”
That's for voters to decide, not delusional people like you.
because Trump did not seem to comprehend or digest what Raffensperger was saying as he patiently debunked one unsubstantiated fraud allegation after another.
Look, I agree with a lot of Raffensperger said in that now-infamous phone call, but just telling someone that a thing is untrue is not "debunking" their claims. It's just countering it. Trump wanted to look at some of their internal records, Raffensperger believed it was illegal and unconstitutional to share those records, so all Trump really had was Raffensperger and his attorney's assurances that the claims were false.
Some of those are things he should be willing to accept at face value, ie, "We looked at the State Farm video and it wasn't a suitcase or briefcase, it was a ballot container identical to all other containers of ballots," that sort of thing. But others, saying, "We looked and there weren't people out of state voting," those are naked assurances that he's giving to Trump. Trump probably should believe that but he's not forced to believe that, he can think Raffensperger is incorrect and lying to cover up his own incompetence or failures.
Raffensperger would hardly be the first politician to assure people everything was done properly just to cover his own ass-people accuse Trump of doing exactly that sort of thing. So simply hearing the words spoken by Raffensperger's team is not the same as Trump having those ideas debunked-he didn't produce an episode of mythbusters where he painstakingly tested every claim and provided evidence to prove his point.
The Biden regime would have us believe that if someone, who may have a self interest in persuading you, claims something is a fact you have no choice but to accept their assertion. This is pure nonsense. People tell me shit all of the time that I don't believe.
Government investigating itself has never lied to Americans. Never.
Ga never investigated the votes tied to PO Boxes or addresses that didn't exist. He refused to even look into it despite it being illegal per Ga election laws. It wasn't just the videos that were brought up on the call.
Ga never investigated the votes tied to PO Boxes or addresses that didn’t exist. He refused to even look into it despite it being illegal per Ga election laws.
Jesse here is referring to the data from Matt Braynard. That data is crap.
https://www.gpb.org/news/2020/12/10/at-georgia-house-hearing-republicans-baseless-claims-of-voting-fraud-persist
https://www.ajc.com/politics/5-georgia-election-fraud-claims-explained/HG7LECMRRZGBNH6VNLYI4H5R6A/
What is "crap" is the idea that these statements from officials amount to any kind of meaningful audit.
Don't get me wrong: under current US law, Biden is legitimately president of the US.
But that doesn't change the fact that US voting procedures are effectively unauditable and that fraud would be easy to perpetrate and undetectable. There is no reason to trust the vote counts coming out of the current system.
This right here. The whole case seems built on such instances like this one.
Believing something and then having someone tell you that you're wrong, with little to no elaboration =/= a "debunking."
Similarly, asking a dozen lawyers about your plan to stop vote certification and having them all give differing answers on the legal viability of the plan isn't illegal. In the legal profession, you are going to find the risk-averse and find those who will push the envelope. No legal theory is disproven until a judge strikes it down, and even then there are layers of appeals.
And that ensures that the ballots in it are legitimate... how?
And why should one believe Raffensberger? Raffensberger has every incentive to avoid finding illegitimate votes.
At the root of the problem is that chain of custody and auditability of US elections is laughably bad; there are no credible procedures for verifying election results. It all amounts to some official saying "trust us". That shouldn't be good enough in a reasonable democracy.
But that is no accident either. The shoddy use of ballot boxes and the poor chain of custody are deliberate, because the US political establishment does not want people to be able to mount real challenges to election outcomes. That's also why the law is so ill prepared to deal with actual outcome-altering fraud in national elections.
And that ensures that the ballots in it are legitimate… how?
The fact that it's a standard ballot container means it is literally no more suspicious than any other ballot container. And calling it a suitcase full of ballots is a mischaracterization, so it's good to correct that. It's always good to pursue the truth and not just grasp at straws.
I agree: the handling of this particular ballot container calls into question the handling (and hence validity) of all ballot containers at that location. That is because the handling of this ballot container demonstrates the lack of proper auditing, storage, and chain of custody of all ballot containers.
The truth is simple: US elections lack proper chain of custody and cannot be meaningfully audited; US elections are therefore inherently not trustworthy.
And at this point, we have to assume that it’s deliberate.
https://twitter.com/AuronMacintyre/status/1687541294594187265?t=F6_G8x68NpUSphKf2FODlw&s=19
Constitutions are not eternal guardians of the political will and states do not become objective and self-governing machines simply because rules get written down on a piece of paper
It is clearly a political prosecution.
Biden, Hillary, Obama, the FBI, the DOJ, the Deep State, and George Soros forced Donald Trump to take those classified documents home with him, forced him to lie about taking them, forced him to defy a subpoena, and forced him to order his lawyer to lie on a form attesting that he had returned them.
Biden, Hillary, Obama, the FBI, the DOJ, the Deep State, and George Sorors forced Donald Trump to fire competent lawyers and instead hire crackpot nutjobs like Giuliani, KrakenPowell, and Eastman, listen to their advice, and then concoct a scheme to try to stay in power even in defiance of the Electoral Count Act and the Constitution.
Biden, Hillary, Obama, the FBI, the DOJ, the Deep State, and George Soros forced Donald Trump to cheat on his wife, sleep with Stormy Daniels, pay her off with hush money payments, and then use a dodgy financing scheme to try to hide those payments from public scrutiny.
Biden, Hillary, Obama, the FBI, the DOJ, the Deep State, and George Soros forced Donald Trump to call Raffenspberger and demand that he "find the votes" that would deliver him victory in that state.
It is all a political prosecution. Donald Trump is completely blameless and innocent. He did nothing wrong. He is a victim. A victim of Biden, Hillary, Obama, the FBI, the DOJ, the Deep State, and George Soros. He is a moral, pure, upstanding man who was manipulated and forced to do these terrible things and it is just so terribly unfair that he is the poor, poor victim here.
lolnope.
otoh, there's probably a universe where Charlie Finley didn't move the A's to Oakland in 1968 and the Kansas City A's won the '72, '73 and '74 World Series ... and Reggie Jackson was my grandma's fave player
Of course not.
What makes this a "political prosecution" is that only Trump is being prosecuted for these crimes, while Biden, Obama, and Hillary were not.
I hope Republicans will learn their lesson and go after Democrats (foremost Biden) when they are back in power.
So, you think Biden, Obama and Hillary did all these things too? They stole and hid highly classified documents, and lied about having them?
They urged the Vice President to lie and violate the Constitution when it was time to validate the count of electors?
They hired crackpot attorneys to file flawed, inaccurate and ultimately discarded lawsuits alleging bogus election fraud?
Of course the media hid from us the three of them holding a huge rally in Washington and encouraging a mob of thugs to go and disrupt Congress while it was counting votes?
Hillary and Biden both “stole and hid highly classified documents”. That’s an established fact. Hillary, in addition, also obstructed justice by destroying the evidence; that’s also an established fact.
Obama was likely a co-conspirator in Biden’s corrupt dealings.
As for Trump’s January 6 indictments, they have no valid legal basis. Trump has a right to “urge” his VP, hire crackpot attorneys, and hold rallies as much as he wants to.
Furthermore, as I explained above, for the VP to refuse to count electoral college votes is not a constitutional violation per se. And even if Trump’s urging or Pence’s refusal to count the votes were a violation of the Constitution, the remedy is impeachment, not criminal prosecution after they are out of office. Violations of the Constitution are not per se criminal offenses.
To be clear: I think Pence made the right decision, but he made a political decision. The indictment and the kinds of arguments people like you are making about it are risible.
https://twitter.com/corsair21c/status/1687525289029701632?t=BvhBPbU67Ar7WMjf8fheqQ&s=19
Remember when naive America elected a deeply disturbed homosexual Kenyan who was raised in Indonesia and this was considered perfectly normal?
The best part is the supposed opposition party employed its own deeply disturbed whackjob, McCain, to just lay down in the 2008 election
[Link]
McCain was the curtain drawn back, fer sure.
So were the Bushes and Clintons, if you were half paying attention. So were LBJ, Tricky Dick, Ford, Carter, and even Saint Ronnie Ray-Gun himself, but it was less noticeable pre-internet.
McCain, Obama, Romney, McConnell, McCarthy, Pelosi, Schumer, Kinzinger, Biden, and company (too many to list) are the deranged naked senile emperor picking their noses and rubbing their flaccid dong around from the throne.
It's very easy, not to say simplistic, to avoid making any distinctions at all. Or. more accurately, just plain brainless.
https://twitter.com/NameRedacted247/status/1687358111235932161?t=4KsqBYWe-X7KubjkIN70tg&s=19
1. Why has Meta hired more than 160 individuals from the US Intelligence Community since 2018?
Is the Global Engagement Center (GEC) directly providing funding to Meta? Is this a modern-day version of Operation Mockingbird?
CIA-14
FBI-26
NSA-16
DHS-29
State Dept-32
DOD-49
This is an update to my previous thread from December 2022. The primary focus here is to provide a comprehensive list of the most notable individuals, currently working at Meta, with backgrounds in intelligence.
[Thread, link]
And where is the evidence for this?
https://twitter.com/WallStreetSilv/status/1687507732625072135?t=2Viix9vazCBS5sNEfzIB3w&s=19
Pfizer employees got a special version of the “vaccine”, not what was given to the general population.
Odds are it was just something harmless without mRNA because Pfizer would have legal liability forcing it on their own employees.
[Link]
Load of crap...just conspiracy bullshit.
Got any more TDS there, Sullum. You cite people who are not exactly credible when it comes to Trump. Bill Barr, Cocaine Mitch McConnell, and Michael Wolff, who apparently wrote a trilogy of books on Trump. However, Wolff has been known to stretch the truth in the past as well as fabricate quotes.
https://www.thewrap.com/michael-wolff-6-things-to-know-trump-white-house-fire-fury/
For decades, Michael Wolff was famous in journalistic circles for his provocative, acerbic critiques of the media and fly-on-the-wall tell-alls that suggest unlimited access. But thanks to his new book “Fire & Fury: Inside The Trump White House,” he isn’t just famous among fellow reporters. He’s everywhere.
While the late New York Times media reporter David Carr mostly praised Wolff’s “joyously nasty” 2008 biography of Rupert Murdoch, he also wrote, “One of the problems with Wolff’s omniscience is that while he may know all, he gets some of it wrong.”
Washington Post writer Paul Farhi said Wolff “has a penchant for stirring up an argument and pushing the facts as far as they’ll go.”
When even the NYT and WaPo say you have a penchant for lying, you've got a problem.
“Wolff is the quintessential New York creation, fixated on culture, style, buzz, and money, money, money. For Wolff, nothing is more erotic than a multibillionaire,” the author Michelle Cottle wrote.
It’s no surprise that some of the people at the center of the story would dispute some of Wolff’s claims. Donald Trump Jr. tweeted that the president really did know who John Boehner was — despite Wolff’s reporting that he didn’t — and Tony Blair called portions of the book [Fire and Fury] “a complete fabrication.”
Got any more TDS there, Sullum.
Yes, that will arrive in tomorrow's column about how Trump is really reals guilty for sure
Sullum has been completely destroyed by TDS. He is no longer a rational being. If Trump dropped dead tomorrow Jacob would spend at least another year writing tedious screeds about all of his evils. Not that anyone would read them.
I know so many people like this and it's honestly incredibly sad. I would never have guessed that one Bad Orange Man could cause such psychic destruction. I had no clue that people were this fragile.
Bill Barr is clown college.
Just let the voters decide. That is what should happen in a constitutional Republic. That is what happened in the US until this fascist pack of Democrats took over. The media are eager participants in this, that includes Sullum and Reason.
I am tired of it, just like most Americans.
People hate Trump. Those people think their hatred justifies a prison sentence for him. Our country is on the precipice of catastrophe, and I don't see how we don't crash into the abyss.
I don't hate Trump. I despise how the GOP abandoned it's principles and chose a leader with no observable principles, someone we all know to be a grifter and conman. Lindsey Graham even saw this.
This isn't an indictment of Trump, this is an indictment of the entire GOP worldview. You can't just accept election results when your candidate wins and call it fraudulent when he loses. Not just that, but folks act like any fraud was necessary. He was a terrible president that failed to demonstrate anything resembling leadership.
The only delusion about Trump is coming from those who accept that the man is precisely the amoral criminal he demonstrated himself to be before he was chosen as leader of modern conservatism.
Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has them and close examination requires reliable reflection or the help of a friend. Consider me that friend.
Lindsey Graham even saw this.
Consistently principled Lindsay Graham, right. He wouldn't lie to us.
How much did you donate to the Lincoln Project? Youre upset they abandoned their neocon principles? Lol.
Lindsey Graham even saw this.
Lindsey Graham is hardly an expert of principles and is well known as a major grifter and conman. He's probably the last asshole I'd cite regarding someone coming from without the establishment.
"no observable principles". Let's see. He appointed only conservatives to the Supreme Court. He stopped the net growth of new Federal regulations by ordering agencies to repeal two rules for every new one they issued. He didn't start any new wars and was pulling the US out of Afghanistan in an orderly fashion. You know, those looks like principles to me.
Those aren't neocon principles.
Well, then they're obviously not principles at all!
Do you have any evidence that Trump’s administrations actually followed through on tracking whether agencies were repealing two rules for every new one issued? Or, was the real situation that Trump grandstanded by signing the order, and as was typical of his leadership, his attention span wandered elsewhere and nobody followed up?
Similar question for withdrawal from Afghanistan. What makes you say it was orderly? I recall a President who became preoccupied with his own re-election and didn’t pay much attention to following up on Afghanistan withdrawal.
You’d think a libertarian publication that’s railed against onerous regulations for years would have followed that. Especially one headquartered near the seat of government.
The number of pages in the federal register dropped precipitously during Trump's first year in office. You can look it up yourself.
He was a terrible president
That’s the tell. Trump was actually a pretty good Prez - Abraham accords, kept illegal immigration down, no new wars, awesome economy, etc etc. But he is a vulgar, self-absorbed person, who calls out the swamp creatures. THAT is why they hate him. They have a cult of fake virtue and Trump upset it, exposing them all. Media hardest hit, hence the repeated hit pieces and flimsy legal cases.
The GOP used to be a party of corporatist war mongers, theocrats, and authoritarians. It was dominated by a--holes like McCain, Bush, Romney, and the like. I'm glad that the GOP is in the process of abandoning their "principles".
Why not? That's how the US election game is played. Democrats do it every election cycle.
And nobody really knows who actually wins elections because the way US elections are held cannot be meaningfully audited.
Maybe you are the kind of person who wants a Fuhrer; I don't.
What I want is lower taxes, fewer regulations, fewer wars, and more individual liberty, and Trump (surprisingly) delivered in those areas, unlike any other of the Republican or Democrat presidents over the last half century.
Trump was told not to talk to witnesses in 2020 election conspiracy case. That could be a challenge
That's because AMERICA is the witness.
a subpoena so ridiculous not even Jack Smith could write it ... or could he?
Is this not the same article you wrote 2 days ago?
https://reason.com/2023/08/02/did-trump-really-believe-the-election-was-stolen-here-is-why-it-matters/
Similar and reorganized. Jacob, you're getting lazy in your TDS spasms.
This is sort of interesting but in the end may not mean much.
Trump is being tried before an Obama-appointed judge who has been utterly vicious toward the Jan. 6 defendants, with a District of Columbia jury. Anything less than conviction on all counts would be shocking.
On appeal, the courts will consider matters of law, but much less will look at matters of fact, including the defendant's state of mind. Usually, facts are presumed to have been tried at the first level.
Asking an appellate court to review and possibly change the determination of facts is rare and frowned on.
This is true and frankly a huge problem in the federal court system. Biased idiots in district courts are finders of fact based on their biases and idiocy. But all of the Trump cases reach constitutional issues of separation of powers at the very least not to mention 1A, statutes of limitation, federalism and more. At every level the charges themselves are novel and based upon previously unknown legal theories. They will be ripe for appeal based upon law regardless of some podunk judge's finding of fact at least at the federal level.
Any conviction is certain to reach SCOTUS.
Barr has “come to believe” Trump is guilty after binge-watching CNN for 24 hours straight. As reported by CNN. (sarcasm)
I'm also curious as to why Reason is seemingly okay with the long and ongoing prosecutorial abuses of Jack Smith and his team. Shouldn't a Libertarian magazine take notice that Jack Smith has a history of novel crime construction that was rebuked unanimously by the USSC against McDonnell, and here he is creating novel construction of the laws yet again? Shouldn't a libertarian magazine take note Jake Smith and his team have multiple examples of Brady violations and breaking legal priveledge and been rebuked by courts multiple times and they are doing so again? Why is there no interest in this case of a defendants rights?
couldn't even get Bob Menendez convicted lol
Or John Edwards for paying his slide fling to go on campaign trips with him as his wife died of cancer.
These facts didn't show up in WAPO or NYT and David French seems unaware. Maybe you're just expecting too much. Reason writers have to meet deadlines if they're going to get to the cocktail parties on time. There are only so many hours in a day.
Given my experience with flaming narcissists, which I’m pretty sure Trump is, he absolutely believes in every fiber of his soul that the election was stolen from him, if that indeed matters.
And it’s also pretty clear to me that these are political prosecutions. Is Trump corrupt? No doubt, just as is Biden and the rest of the crooked lot. Obviously, they are throwing everything they have at him in order to avoid having to run against him again.
Biden v Trump Redux, god help us all. Just in time for the flare up with China our political system gives us *this*. We’re so effed.
"...Biden v Trump Redux, god help us all..."
We had the best POTUS in a century in Trump, we now have the most befuddled agent ever to hold the office.
But TDS makes shits like you comment like that and there seems to cure.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Pretty funny that Joe's campaign is essentially a real-life version of Weekend At Bernie's where they must convince America that their stiff is still conscious enough to run for office while Trump's "campaign" seeks to prove their own man is too dumb/insane to pass for mens rea (but still want you to vote for him because he's totes the best man for the job :^).
Reason will transition to the Biden is a moderate and reluctantly vote for him again next year.
Looks like we have another poster who has blind faith in government and corporate media.
Self-delusion is basically an insanity defense. Unless the defense asserts a Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity, the judge should bar any evidence of self-delusion.
Man. You'd even fail out of MSNBC law school.
There was a time when conservatives believed that national leaders should be held to a higher standard. Because children look up to national leaders as figures to be respected and emulated. That was the environment I was raised in, actually. And while I have long ago disposed of the notion that national leaders are figures worth emulating, I still find merit in the idea that they ought to be held to high standards, if for no other reason than they wield considerable amounts of power over us. If they are going to have that much power, shouldn't we have at least some assurance that the people with all that power have *some* degree of good character to go along with it? That they will use that power with some degree of good judgment?
But that evidently is the old and busted argument. What is the new argument? National leaders should be held to whatever standard the "other side" is held to? And in figuring this out, we are to ignore details of the various cases involved, and instead just focus on tribal tallies? So if Hillary and Biden get caught with classified documents, then Trump and Pence should be permitted to get caught with classified documents too - even if the details of all the cases are completely different. Is that the new standard?
If Hillary claims that the 2016 election was stolen, then Trump gets to claim that the 2020 election was stolen, even if their methods for doing so were completely different. Is that the new standard? Hillary gets to complain by going on TV and writing a book - Trump gets to complain by hiring crackpot lawyers and pressuring his VP to break the law and creating a fake electors scheme - and because the tally is One Team Blue, One Team Red, the score is settled and all is well. Is that the new standard?
>>National leaders should be held to whatever standard the “other side” is held to?
Alinsky rule #4.
>>If Hillary claims that the 2016 election was stolen
Katharine Harris on line 2 ...
Note jeff completely skips over Hillary having classified information, setting up an unclassified information to host it, destroyed evidence under subpoena including electronics, hid campaign payments for oppo research from a foreign agency using Russians in his analysis.
Jeff is not an honest person. He will cheer criminalizing trump with novel crimes but always defend not prosecuting Hillary. Never will he admit the DoJ is biased and selective. Yet claim to be a libertarian.
Neither Hillary Clinton nor Joe Bden as current of former Senator and Vice President have or had unilateral authority to declassify what they chose, while Trump did. That's a big diffeence, no? As for Pence, he's in the same boat as Biden - no authority at all, and the three who took classifed materials while NOT President of the United States should all be prosecuted and jailed. But not President Trump. And I am by no means a big fan of his, just of law.
I would prefer that none of them go to jail IF they actually cooperate and return the documents that they weren't supposed to have. Treating those documents as if they were overdue library books. Biden, Obama, Pence, Bush, that is what they did - they cooperated. Hillary is obviously a different case, I do think she should be charged for what she did. Trump, on the other hand, not only didn't cooperate, he outright refused, he played games, he defied a subpoena, he told his lawyers to lie on a form saying he had returned all the documents. Details matter.
You sound to me like you got your “facts” from the Lawfare website. Who told you that Joetard “cooperated” while having classified documents stashed at a half dozen locations, some for more than 10 years since he was a senator and had ZERO authority to personally possess classified documents? Same for Obama and Bush. Who told you that Trump “played games,” “defied a subpoena,” “told his lawyers to lie,” etc.? Where were these “facts” litigated such that you assert the supposed veracity of those statements? Where can I locate the subpoenas issued for classified documents possessed by Obama and Bush?
Hillary exposed highly classified documents to the Internet and then destroyed the evidence after being subpoenaed. That is a far worse crime than Trump or Biden storing it in a private bathroom.
There was a time when conservatives believed that national leaders should be held to a higher standard.
Sure, we'd like our leaders to be men of high character. I don't support prosecuting them, legally, for being bad people or people I don't like. My opinion that he's broken no laws has little to do with my belief about his fitness for high office.
What is the new argument? National leaders should be held to whatever standard the “other side” is held to?
Exercising some consistency in standards is actually useful to keep from weaponizing our justice system against people we don't like, yes. For the same reason I think police officers should be prosecuted if they do something that would get a civilian thrown in prison, I think we shouldn't exercise double-standards when it comes to people who are politically disfavored.
One could say blind and equal justice is a fundamental aspect of a fair society.
At least libertarians believe so. Jeff is not one though.
Well, Jesse, libertarians might think that details of individual cases matter. Justice is more than just tribal point-scoring. The details between Trump and Obama and Bush and Pence and Biden and Hillary when it comes to their classified documents are all different and they should be treated differently beyond "who is Team Red and who is Team Blue".
Jeff should eat a bullet, and save some patriot the cost some day.
“My opinion that he’s broken no laws has little to do with my belief about his fitness for high office.”
So much fucking this I can’t even express it properly.
And yes Jesse, equal application of the law is fundamental to a sane and functional justice system.
In the documents case, he defied a subpoena and he told his lawyer to lie about whether he returned all the documents. That is literal obstruction of justice. He literally bragged on tape that he had documents that HE KNEW that he wasn't supposed to have. How much more clear-cut can you get?
In the documents case, he defied a subpoena and he told his lawyer to lie about whether he returned all the documents.
We've gone over this. That's your characterization of a conversation he had and not what he actually said. It's troubling that when you encounter a calm, reasoned argument, you immediately fall to mendaciousness. Especially obvious mendaciousness where we've had previous conversations about what exactly he's supposed to have said to his lawyer, and why it should be considered a privileged conversation.
A more accurate statement is that Trump deceived his own lawyer when he directed Nauta to move boxes out of the storage area that was to be searched before his other lawyer, the one he deceived, signed the statement attesting that there were no more documents to be returned.
So no I am not referring to a privileged conversation here.
"There was a time when conservatives believed that national leaders should be held to a higher standard."
Progressives argued otherwise and won the argument. Congrats to them.
I mean, look at the CURRENT President. Is he held to a higher standard?
Well you have already made it clear that your ethical standards are determined by Hillary's sterling example.
Progs won that argument. Give them a hand for doing so.
“National leaders should be held to whatever standard the “other side” is held to?”
Which is, of course, a recipe for a downward spiral.
...as opposed to one side held to a higher standard and the other held to none whatsoever?
Yes, there are a lot of people playing that game. Especially among enthusiastic supporters of Team Blue or Team Red. We both agree that’s wrong, though, don’t we?
Personally, I think both those teams suck and I’d like to see everyone held to higher standards.
Well, whatever idiots held that belief, it came to a crashing halt with the Clintons, Obama, and Biden.
Little fascists like you think of US presidents as a "national Fuhrer" and want children to look up to them.
Normal people have nothing but contempt for politicians, including whoever is president at the time.
You know what could REALLY stymie the prosecution? If the defence could prove Trump wasn't actually deluded and that his claims weren't materially false.
None of the election lawsuits made it as far as ACTUAL discovery. One, if I recall, made it as far as a judge ordering the plaintiffs be given access to the relevant evidence, but the county election officials refused and appealed. It's called running out the clock. Once the election was certified, the judge said it was too late to do anything about it, there was no point proceeding.
If the claim is that someone made false statements with the knowledge that they were false, there are TWO avenues of defence:
1) prove he genuinely believed the statements were true (blurry)
2) prove the statements themselves were true (clear)
As for the "fraudulent electors" aspect, did Trump's electors forge the governor's seal on their certificates? No. An 1887 law requires the President of the Senate to count the certificate that bears the governor's seal unless congress decides otherwise, through a prescribed process. That law has never been constitutionally challenged, and is arguably unconstitutional in that it relegates the President of the Senate to a file clerk obeying instructions, when the constitution does not indicate this should be his role.
THAT law forbids fraudulent electors. But where's the fraud? Tendering a certificate that bears the seal of the state assembly, or no seal at all, is not fraudulent. It's not an attempt to trick anyone into thinking it's the real, governor approved certificate.
Conspiracy to obstruct the electoral count? By leveraging a legally authorized process of objection? Piffle.
Anyway, I hope Trump's team tries to run with defence 2. One would think that if they're 100% positive the claims he made were false, they'd be EAGER to prove it in court, no?
For one, it would put the question to rest. And if it was definitively demonstrated that he'd been completely wrongheaded about it this entire time, wouldn't that be the ONE thing that could disillusion and demoralize his base?
But if he asks to pursue defence 2 and they don't let him... well. Won't that just solidify and bolster his base? "You're lying about my guy, AGAIN, and you're blocking his ability to prove you're lying about him, AGAIN."
But hey. What do I know?
Well, hey, can’t a girl dream? It’s one I share.
None of the election lawsuits made it as far as ACTUAL discovery.
Not quite right. Over a dozen lawsuits proceeded and the courts determined elections officials acted illegally in 2020.
And now there is a case in either Wisconsin or Michigan, can’t recall at the moment, of Garland going after a group trying to investigate the 2020 elections under claims only government can investigate itself. Quite a catch 22.
But if he asks to pursue defence 2 and they don’t let him… well. Won’t that just solidify and bolster his base?
This is what the courts did in the Dominion v fox suits. They established facts before trial to basically take away and defense Fox had. 2 days later Fox settled.
Apropos to your comment,
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/elections/5-election-illegalities-2020-presidential-election-contradicting-trump
Five 2020 election irregularities, illegalities that collide with Jack Smith's Trump indictment
Two instances of election illegalities were confirmed by the Wisconsin Supreme Court.
Some Trump friendly attorneys are saying that the Biden regime didn't think this one through. At it's core it makes a claim that Joe Biden legitimately won the 2020 election and that Trump knew that as a fact. This opens the door for the defense to enter into evidence all of the many indicators that not only did Trump not "know" that the election was legitimate but there is ample evidence that it wasn't. Undoubtedly the regime's hand picked judge will deny the defense but there is no way this ends in a district court.
Trump wants the trial televised too.
I doubt the Jamaican activist diversity hire judge presiding will allow anything close to a fair trial.
Cool to see you here, Karen! Been off youtube a while so haven't seen your content in a while
I get being repelled by Trump, both personally and from a strict Libertarian viewpoint. I didn’t vote for him in 2016, or Hillary Clinton – Mme The Eternal Wannabe – either.
I did vote for him in 2020, because, prior to COVID, which he, being hamstrung at every turn within his own administration, had no preparation for, his policies were working for America, insofar as he was able to get them implemented. And because he was so beleagured as to make what Bill Clinton was put through (with far more factual bases) look like a senior prom. Because Denocrats have got out of control - and not only on spending, though that they've been taking steroids for - but in lawlessness which exceeds anything Donald Trump has done by orders of magnitude.
Reason is still one of my favorite sites, as they report some important stuff, and The Volokh Conspiracy is valuable, but it’s slipped on my chart. TDS has so thoroughly infected it that authors I loved once now fall stale and flat. And it’s not I that has changed.
Democrats are more lawless than republicans? Good grief. Count the people in jail, etc, there are WAY more republican politicians and operatives in jail.
On the other hand the Biden regime doesn't prosecute Democrats so that could skew the numbers.
The 2020 summer of love says otherwise jackass.
Fuck off, Richardson. You're the epitome of "lawless".
You're full of shit, Bill.
+1000
How will the defense counter the accusation that Trump was pedaling a narrative he knew was false. Relying solely on the "beyond a reasonable doubt" seems a bit risky. The defense will need to introduce doubt. Now if all the reliable staff are saying Trump lost, the defense is left going to the wackos with the Karken. We know because Sidney Powell admitted in a filing in federal court that she felt “no reasonable person would conclude that [her] statements were truly statements of fact." If Trump believed this, is he not an unreasonable person. I think that both sides have a very difficult task here. The prosecution needs to establish state of mind. The defense needs to show belief while not be out of his mind.
Such a moderate stance to assume the government is the arbiter of truth on what a person thinks. Stalin would be proud. Hint. Kerik memos.
Thus speaks the official arbitrator of what is moderation for this site?
I 'll keep moderation my way and you keep it your way and we can both be happy.
He is not claiming to be a moderate.
You, on the other hand, are.
That is why you get called out.
I am a moderate. I have never allowed people to define me, and I am not going to start with commenters to this board.
So...you're delusional.
You go, girl!
M4E
Thoughts arrive like butterflies
He don't know
So he chases them away
The only defense is INSANITY. Which is actually true. (Narcissistic personality disorder makes him think of NOTHING but himself.) Otherwise, he is guilty in several different ways.
And how do we know he is guilty? All the allegations/charges in the indictment must have strong evidence behind them, and that evidence is almost ALL the sworn testimony from his OWN HAND-PICKED RETRUMPLICAN advisors.
I had doubts about you argument until I saw RETRUMPLICAN, all caps. You are a master wordsmith. Carry on.
Act Blue doesn't send their best.
Toss yourself off the crest.
OBL would be proud.
Words speak louder than actions. People should be held responsible for their words, not their actions. \s
Lol. The fucking irony.
Secretary Antony Blinken<
.
@SecBlinken The United States strongly condemns Russia’s conviction of opposition leader Aleksey Navalny on politically motivated charges. The Kremlin cannot silence the truth. Navalny should be released.
That takes some fucking balls right there
Does it?
Why?
I mean, on one hand, one might think that this administration admonishing anyone for arresting the opposition candidate would take some cojones, but on the other hand, tweeting shit with no risk is about as beta-cuck as one can get.
Fair
Ah, you beat me to it.
They don't respect us because they don't fear us.
The regime is simply rubbing it in our faces.
How's that going to change?
That you think Jack Smith prosecuting Trump is no different than Putin prosecuting Navalny only shows how broken your moral compass is.
There is nary a difference.
But keep defending a banana republic.
The only plus is that the entire world looks at that pathetic drip of a "man" and rightly ignores him.
Must suck being the entire globe's bitch.
Self deceit and self delusion?..um...you mean common sense? Who really thinks Biden got 81million votes in just the right places? it's idiotic. Trump..love him or hate him...is a f-ing rock star...Biden campaigned from his basement....his "presidency" is gated and barred like Soviet Russia....his "handlers" have to direct his every move...it's bullshit.
The Secretaries of State of the 50 states, and equivalent officials in Federal districts and U.S. territories.
I thought quite a few of them filed a suit that SCOTUS refused to hear (even though they were obligated to do so) over the irregularities.
Claiming the other guy’s state got it wrong. So, an attempt by some states to interfere in other states’ elections.
We don't know that they really "think" that Biden got 81 million votes.
All we know is that they found it politically expedient not to ask any questions or rock the boat.
https://twitter.com/SecBlinken/status/1687496195885735946?t=HeIvvwloYpI2HitbaLT51w&s=19
The United States strongly condemns Russia’s conviction of opposition leader Aleksey Navalny on politically motivated charges. The Kremlin cannot silence the truth. Navalny should be released.
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Trump, always the jackass, seems to be trying to talk his way into pretrial detention. Shortly after expressly telling the judge that he understood that making untoward statements about witnesses, evidence, and other trial elements -- or speaking with witnesses -- would be unlawful and could lead to pretrial detention or sanctions, and that he would comply with his obligations as a defendant, the dumbass violated his terms of release.
Let's hope this judge soon conducts a special edition of Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes (featuring a washed-up reality television personality).
I believe it would be unwise to incarcerate former Pres. Trump in an American prison while he awaits trial.
Send him to Guantanamo.
Carry on, clingers!
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
Donald Trump is utterly clueless. It's mind-boggling to witness his staunch defenders blindly support his foolish actions. Honestly, it's disheartening to see the level of ignorance prevalent in our country.
It's rather amusing how his followers seem to be aware of their own lack of intelligence, yet they delude themselves into thinking they can overpower democracy. What a sad bunch of losers. Their consistent failures will persist, but the media will always make a fuss about it.
In conclusion, I have no respect for Trump or anyone who aligns themselves with him.
What retards.
Best regards, Happy Miser
Pure ad hominem BS --- all insult, zero facts.
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled pile of shit.
A friend who reads and comments at this site recommended it to me a while back, and since that time I have occasionally visited to read articles and even comment here a few times.
She has also mentioned to me that it seems as if this site has gone downhill since she originally recommended it. I don't have the prior knowledge to know whether or how much the site has gone downhill, but I can affirm that articles such as this one are almost too stupid and biased to merit the time it takes to read or respond to them.
There is no bigger waste of time than reading some moronic lawyer's criticism of someone who is NOT a lawyer and NOT pretending to be a lawyer behaving, amazingly, NOT like a lawyer.
Meanwhile, absent from this article criticizing Trump's position(s) as either being fraudulent or delusional, is any recognition that Trump has yet to be convicted of any crime despite the full lawfare apparatus of the US Government --- democrats + RINOs combined --- working day and night with the corrupt media for the last 7 years to put Trump in prison and fix elections on behalf of the worst gangsters known in US History, who currently control our federal government.
Speaking only for myself: I'll dump Reason and it's silly, effete writers before I'll dump Trump --- and that goes double if the DC gangsters and Bar Association(s) that mistakenly licensed so many corrupt lawyers manage to finally convict Trump in some kangaroo jurisdiction like NY, DC, or Fulton Co., Ga., or continue to write truly-moronic articles such as this one.
I am a longtime (35+ years) reader of Reason. I recall Virginia Postrel’s coming on as the new managing editor (1989) years after I received my first gift subscription from a young woman who had been my best friend for over 10 years, and still is.
Reason has indeed deteriorated. They’ve spread themselves a little thin, IMO, and that’s had an impact. But the worst effects derive entirely from Trump Derangement Syndrome, which has infected to one degree or another just about every writer. Nick Gillespie, former managing editor, used to be a lot of fun to read, but he just does audio and video now, almost exclusively – and he was not immune, either.
Unfortunately, even some of those at The Volokh Conspiracy have succumbed, too.
But I’m pretty sure Jacob Sullem is not now nor has ever been a lawyer, nor claimed to be.
I guess I mistakenly assumed that the IDIOT that wrote this trash was a lawyer because he offered so many legal assertions. But apparently I was wrong. He's not a lawyer --- he just plays one while posting ignorant garbage.
Honestly, he writes so little now - at least at Reason - I'm always surprised these days to see his byline. And yes - this is by far the least meritorious bit of writing I've ever seen from him. I don't think I'll be reading him, no matter the subject, in future.
Don't be too hasty. He might have very valuable information to offer when the subject matter involves being a preposterous clown pretending to know about things about which he knows NOTHING.
"...Speaking only for myself: I’ll dump Reason and it’s silly, effete writers before I’ll dump Trump..."
Don't like the man's personality, didn't vote for him (I'm in CA, so my vote doesn't matter anyhow), but was pleased (and amazed) when he put the hag on the bench, hoping only for a SCOTUS nominee who was not in the process of capsizing to port,
Well, we got that, and then he took the US out of the Paris circle jerk, appointed De Vos, knocked back a bunch of regs, at least tried on Kim, cut taxes, did not start a single new war, and , and, and...
By about 2019, it took a gaze back to Silent Cal to find a POTUS who at least had done no harm to our freedoms and actually achieved some small amount of fed reduction.
A TDS-addled shit posted here several months ago that Biden had reversed enough that it's almost as if he wasn't POTUS. Not true; see his POTUS nominees; the gift that keeps on giving to lefty shits! But even if the claim were true, that alone is better than can be said of most any POTUS *since* Silent Cal. Imagine if FDR left office with no damage at all from his attempt at 'president for life'!
We need a hundred Trumps in congress and Trump as POTUS again.
"...see his SCOTUS nominees;..."
"Blurry Line Between Deceit and Self-Delusion..."
There is a third possibility: He actually believes what he said. That belief seems to be pretty common as about half the country share it.
The only way to determine which of the three possibilities is accurate is to read the orange monster's mind. That is perilous. To peer into that high-iq labyrinth usually leads to life-long TDS.
Gee! Who knew? It's tough to prove a thought-crime.
Stuff you TDS up your ass Sullum.
He doesnt think anything will be proven. He is advancing a false dichotomy for rhetorixal purposes.
Which is beyond ironic, and by his own standard is worthy of prosecution.
Sullum is still suffering the delusion that Trump will get a real trial. A DC jury is absolutely going to vote to convict. Smith doesn't need to prove anything. He could read from the phone book at the trial and get a conviction.
And are you convinced that Trump cannot be guilty of anything he's accused of?
Are you dragging those strawmen all the way from home, or finding them on the way, oh, obnoxiously arrogant lying pile of shit?
BTW, you ignorant TDS-addled shit, Trump has been investigated by about every prosecutor with a recognizable name and congressional committees since March 2018. That's getting close to 5-1/2 years. A man who has been involved in NYC development for years.
What do they have? An unpaid parking ticket, so far. Not even a bribe to a development bureaucrat!
You ain't that clean and I'm not either. When are YOU with your raging case of TDS gonna admit the man is nothing other than the object of a witch hunt and a fishing expedition?
Oh, and make the world a better place: Fuck off and die, asshole.
Vernon Depner is right. It is not possible to find a jurisdiction more unsympathetic to DJT than the District of Columbia.
Even if that weren't the case, do you seriously think Trump is going to allow his defense counsel to argue that he's delusional? That's rich. No, there's going to be yet another attempt to prove that the election was indeed stolen from Trump. Consider the effect that tactic is likely to have on a jury pool that voted 92% for Biden.
"Between Deceit and Self-Delusion"
Worst Sting lyric ever.
Trumps trial will be in Washington DC which votes somewhere between 92-96 % Democratic. Trump will have a jury of Trump haters. Trump will have a liberal leaning Trump hating judge. Trump will have a poor defense as good lawyer won't take his case as so many of his previous lawyer are being accuse of crimes for representing Trump. We already know the government has lied, we know the government has withheld exculpatory evidence.
Blurry Line? LOL It is a witch hunt. Trump will be convicted and sentenced to prison to try to keep him from running.
Or maybe he was just POINTING OUT what everyone saw and because of that, the Media had to start pumping propaganda to de-stain him and what everyone saw.
One of the wonderful things about BS propaganda is it turns blatant LIES into TRUTH. So now tons of blind sheeple think everything wildly abnormal about the election is just deceit and delusions and all Trumps fault.
Please sheeple. Try to keep your brains somewhat functional.
Do you honestly think election integrity is about witch-hunting anyone who questions election integrity?
"Those charges hinge on the assumption that Trump's claims about the massive fraud that supposedly had deprived him of his rightful victory were "knowingly false.""
This is not the issue here and it is misleading on two different levels. The first and most obvious is that state of mind is only important if one has committed a crime and we're trying to decide if the infraction was inadvertent or the perpetrator intended to commit a crime. This particular charge seems to start with whether Trump was delusional or intended to steal back the election - a very iffy crime in the first place. I suppose it's not impossible that he intended to stay in the White House at all costs; that election fraud was just the convenient excuse he picked; and that he was so incompetent at staging a coup that he tried the least likely approach, ignoring a large number of tried and true methods from history around the world. In any event, which crime did he commit that we want to know if he intended to commit it? Fraud or obstruction of a government process seems like extremely thin substance to base a criminal charge upon. By that measure, losing a recount or appealing a verdict with a failed theory would both be fraud or obstruction!
More importantly, any law that fails to make clear what the criminal activity is also automatically fails at the mens rea level since it is virtually impossible for an honest person to even know that the law has been violated, never mind intent! Such laws should be struck down and, at the very least, clarified by Congress before partisan prosecutors weaponize them in the latest round the culture wars.
There has never been an American election in which the Democrats “did not” cheat. And they would steal your eyes if they weren’t screwed into your head. After all, they use government as their tool for the theft of money and property from their rightful owners. That they would commit electoral fraud to guarantee the continuance of their crimes makes perfect sense --- and as their actions speak louder than their words, they clearly agree with me. I am a libertarian. Trump is not. That said, the Democrats must be defeated and beaten into the ground. What they are doing to Trump they will cheerfully do to anyone else --- including libertarians.
More orange man bad. Is Reason ever going to cover the Biden scandals and the most corrupt administration in American history?
Reason is regime media.
Maybe "Reason" doesn't want to help the DNC find better excuses to help throw Biden under the bus. The next election isn't looking very good for them with Biden and his home health team as standard bearers, but so far all their alternatives look worse.
It's neither deceit nor self-delusion.
The election was fraudulent. That is no longer even a legitimate question. You may reasonably argue about the relative contributions of the refusal of States to follow their own election laws by diligently comparing signatures (and other violations) in conjunction with ballot harvesting, vs the inescapably vast conspiracy between our government agencies and media to engage in election interference, but no sane person can still say the 2020 election was on the up and up.
Multiple surveys have revealed that JUST the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop altered the outcome.
Trump is no angel. Legitimate criticism abounds. Yet what we are seeing from the rest of our government is a level of massive atrocities making 1933 Germany look like Boy Scout camp.
Don’t get tired. Get even. Help slash the swamp.
Trump is the most lied about, maligned and legally harassed President ever. Is he self deluded or paranoid because of that? I can't blame him for being paranoid after all the lies about him.
Are these self delusions?
Quid pro quo
Russian collusion
Russiagate
Pee tape
Melania will divorce Trump after election
Melania will divorce Trump after inauguration
Melania will divorce Trump as soon as he leaves office
First impeachment on fake intelligence they knew was fake at the time of the impeachment
Trump cheated on his taxes.
Trump did not rape E. Jean Caroll, but NY changed the law just so she could sue him and win, with no time or date of rape to provide and alibi
Trump got rich from being president
Bountygate
Trump said white supremacist are good people
Trump said "find the fraud"
Trump incited a riot
Trump incited insurrection
2nd impeachment
Skillfully edited tapes to change what appeared to have happened
failure to release the J6 tapes that showed Capitol policemen helping protesters enter the building
failure to release the J6 tapes that showed Ray Epps incited the riot
Failure of Pelosi to release the intelligence she said she had before the riot there would be a riot
Failure to provide adequate police and security on J6
Schiff tampered with evidence, change the actual text of text messages
Capitol policeman died from blow to the head by fire extinguisher because of Trump
Hunter Biden's laptop was a fake to help Trump
Hunters Biden's laptop was Russian disinformation to help Trump
Trump defrauded people in NY, but there are no victims of fraud!
He threatened to drain / clean-up the Nazi-Empire swamping in D.C. that everyone has grown so completely immuned too and actually try to save what's left of the USA.
Make America Great Again. The worst possible words on the planet for every Nazi fanboy. The Nazi-Empire has grown so much; how dare anyone threaten to bring back a USA.