Section 230 and the Curse of Politics
Gonzalez v. Google presents the Supreme Court’s first opportunity to weigh in on Section 230.

There's an old saying that goes, "How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips are moving." These days, one can ask, "How do you know when Section 230 is being misunderstood?" and answer, "A politician is talking about it."
Adopted in 1996, Section 230 was proposed as a way to counter efforts to censor internet speech. Its authors, then–Reps. Chris Cox and Ron Wyden, did this by walking a delicate line. Their legislative language promoted the development of parental controls and filtering as an alternative to government censorship, and encouraged online platforms to allow free communication by immunizing them from liability for hosting speech by third parties. Crucially, Section 230 also ensured online platforms' ability to regulate posts that violate their terms of service.
Later this month, the Supreme Court will consider how to interpret Section 230. Gonzalez v. Google involves family members of victims who died in the 2015 Islamic State terrorist attacks in Paris. They claim that YouTube (owned by Google) "aided and abetted" the crimes by allowing the Islamic State to use the video platform to recruit members and to communicate its messages. This contributed to terrorist acts, according to the complaint, because YouTube automatically recommends content to users based on their viewing habits.
Gonzalez v. Google has attracted widespread attention because it presents the Supreme Court's first opportunity to weigh in on the statute—and because Section 230 has been at the center of a larger political debate regarding internet regulation for years.
Section 230's Bipartisan Antagonism
Strong opinions about Section 230 are commonplace on both sides of the aisle. Just before losing the 2020 election, then–President Donald Trump put it bluntly on Twitter: "REPEAL SECTION 230!!!" He also issued an executive order that led to a Federal Communications Commission proceeding to "reinterpret" Section 230, and at the end of 2020, he vetoed the National Defense Authorization Act in part because it did not include repeal of the provision.
Such antipathy does little to distinguish Trump from President Joe Biden, who told the New York Times editorial board before the 2020 election that "Section 230 should be revoked immediately." Not much has changed since he's taken office. Biden used a White House "listening session" last fall to make a similar point, and in January, he published an op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal where he demanded, among other things, that "we must fundamentally reform Section 230."White House renews call to 'remove' Section 230 liability shield - POLITICO
But while progressives and conservatives are united in their antipathy for Section 230, they attack the law for different reasons—all of which are misguided. As a report in Bloomberg put it: "Democrats say too much hate, election meddling, and misinformation get through, while Republicans claim their ideas and candidates are censored." In other words, liberals generally attack the part of Section 230 that protects online companies from liability for the third-party content they host, while conservatives want to weaken the provision that ensures online platforms' ability to enforce their own terms of service.
What they have in common is that both sides want to increase the government's ability to control perhaps the most influential communications medium that has ever existed—a rare instance of bipartisan agreement. Progressives advocate modifying or repealing Section 230 to incentivize—that is, coerce—privately owned platforms into restricting content progressives believe is wrong or harmful. Conservatives, on the other hand, advocate modifying or repealing Section 230 to make the companies more vulnerable to claims the content that conservatives like is being "unfairly" moderated.
The monster under the bed, of course, is "Big Tech"—another convenient political label—and the framing of the issue fuels the various narratives for why Section 230 reform is purportedly needed.
One claim is that Section 230 is an antiquated law, adopted in the mid-1990s when the internet was just emerging, and that Congress must update it to keep up with technology and its then-unimagined uses. Another is that Section 230 is a perk Congress adopted to nurture emerging internet businesses that have become behemoths and no longer need such support. A more cynical version is that Section 230 is just another chit in the great Washington game of carrot-and-stick that lawmakers can manipulate to condition behavior, justified as compelling tech companies to "earn" their legal protections. The political reasoning is crude, but usually effective: If you know we can inflict pain, you will do what we want.
Few could have imagined in 1996 what the internet would become over the course of a generation. At that time, less than 15 percent of the U.S. population had even used the internet. Search engines were just becoming a thing. The term "social media" was still years away from common parlance; Facebook would not emerge until eight years later. Even the iPhone was more than a decade away from launching, and almost all the platforms that now keep people's noses glued to their screens were on the far side of the horizon.
We Need Section 230 Now More Than Ever
Rather than rendering Section 230 "antiquated," this dramatic evolution underscores the need for the immunities the law provides.
Even at the internet's nascent state of development in 1997, the first federal appellate court to consider the scope of Section 230 immunity explained in Zeran v. America Online, Inc. why it provides indispensable protection for online freedom of expression. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit observed that service providers' inability to screen each of the millions of postings they may host requires that they make "an on-the-spot editorial decision whether to risk liability by allowing [their] continued publication" or else yield to the "natural incentive simply to remove messages upon notification, whether the contents were [unlawful] or not."
Simple math dictates the outcome: If there is the slightest chance you might shoulder legal accountability for what you let people post on your platform, you are not going to risk it.
Time and technology have not altered this essential calculus—except to make it more compelling. Compared to the millions of postings envisioned by the court that first interpreted Section 230, online platforms must now assess their potential liability risks from untold billions. To take just one example, users upload more than 500 hours of third-party content to YouTube per minute. That works out to 30,000 hours of new content per hour, and 720,000 hours per day.
Sure, these giant platforms use sophisticated algorithms to help screen what gets posted, but that fact does not affect the underlying rationale of Section 230. The larger the platform, the greater the risk of liability—and the greater the need for protection.
Politicians can't abide by anything they see as outside their ability to control. The internet caught Congress unaware, and it has been trying to play catch-up ever since. The government's default position for exerting authority over any new medium is to find a way to censor it. Congress first adopted a measure to prohibit "indecent" communications online (oddly, as part of the same law that included Section 230), but the Supreme Court declared that provision unconstitutional in 1997. Congress dusted itself off and tried again the following year with the Child Online Protection Act but it, too, was met with invalidation as a violation of the First Amendment in 2008.
Section 230 was the exception to the legislative branch's reflexive response to any new communications medium, and it was based on an explicit policy of promoting freedom of expression by preserving what the law describes as "the vibrant and competitive free market that presently exists for the internet and other interactive computer services, unfettered by Federal or State regulation." It says something that the most successful federal policy for the internet to date has been the decision not to regulate it.
Given this background, it should send up more than a few red flags when you consider how many of the current proposals to regulate social media and to "reform" Section 230 are billed as measures to protect free speech on the internet.
The Future of Section 230
It's not that the internet doesn't have problems, or that some of the large tech companies haven't bungled their attempts to manage the flow of online traffic on their platforms. There is genuine reason for concern when platforms make moderation decisions about what speech is allowed on those fora.
Those decisions can be maddeningly opaque and arbitrary—and if you aren't Donald Trump, you probably don't have the option of galumphing off to start your own social media platform. But faced with the reality that someone must make those decisions, the question is how to do that in a system dedicated to preserving freedom of expression.
The free speech problem is not that the myriad platforms have different ways of explaining and enforcing their house rules. It is that governments at various levels are looking for ways to horn in on the business.
Last fall, Twitter head Elon Musk began releasing, via a network of journalists, what became known as the Twitter Files, detailing efforts by various federal authorities to nudge or pressure takedown decisions or speaker bans on such topics as the January 6 insurrection, Hunter Biden's laptop, COVID policy, and a range of other subjects. While it is fair to criticize Musk for the way he selectively made this information available to journalists sympathetic to his position, the problem is a serious one. If unexplained moderation decisions by private businesses are cause for concern, you should really begin to worry when the man behind the curtain is with the government.
The dozens of bills introduced to modify or repeal the law generally seek ways to make overt what has up to now been covert: handing control over the various rules for what gets posted online to the government. In some cases, legislators introduce bills mainly as a threat to large tech companies for not playing ball, just to show them who's boss. Either way, the goal is to assert governmental authority over the most powerful communications medium in history, either formally or informally.
Given partisan gridlock, the chance of enacting legislation is probably remote, which means the most likely prospect for immediate change in the scope of Section 230 immunity lies in the Supreme Court. When the Justices consider Gonzalez v. Google later this month, will they view the automatic recommendations that algorithms make as an extension of editorial choices for how information is presented and thereby protected under Section 230? Or will they view such recommendations as falling outside the law's immunity shield? If the Court decides Section 230 immunity should be narrowed, it will upend settled expectations formed by hundreds of lower court decisions and transform the way online platforms operate in making any recommendations.
However the Court construes Section 230 in Gonzalez v. Google, an even bigger challenge to online free speech will likely reach it next term in cases asking whether the First Amendment will allow Florida and Texas to regulate political speech on the internet.
The stakes could not be higher. These cases will test the limits of what the Supreme Court meant in Packingham v. North Carolina back in 2017, when it warned that courts must exercise "extreme caution" before ratifying attempts to regulate online speech. They also will test the underlying assumptions that motivated the adoption of Section 230 in the first place: that the internet flourished because it was unfettered by federal or state regulation.
The alternative will be to leave the future of freedom of speech in the hands of politicians. I shudder at the thought.
The author of this piece submitted an amicus brief supporting Google in Gonzales v. Google on behalf of the Chamber of Progress, as did Reason Foundation, the nonprofit that publishes Reason.
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ROBERT CORN-REVERE is a REAL libertarian, unlike (???) 90% of the FAKE libertarians who post here! I Revere Revere here for his OUTSTANDING and well-deserved praise for Section 230! Long live Section 230!
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I haven’t scrolled down to read the rest of the comments on this page, but I fully expect someone here to assert that Corn-Revere, the most prominent First Amendment lawyer in the country, doesn’t know what he is talking about.
On this topic, I must import an exchange which started with a MOST excellent post by Brandybuck a while ago:
https://reason.com/2022/12/07/in-defense-of-algorithms/?comments=true#comment-9824848
Brandybuck 2 months ago
My only criticism of social media algorithms is that it leads to bubbles. But that’s me, everyone else LIKES the bubbles. The complaints aren’t about bubbles, but that other bubbles exist. People don’t like that there isn’t a person in charge they can write to demanding their views be given priority. Conservatives are mad that progressives aren’t seeing their posts, and progressives are mad that conservatives aren’t being fed their lies.
Or you have conservatives angry that some progressive posts are making it through their bubble, but the algorithm sees that these folk like arguing back against the progressives. Or you have progressives angry that some conservative posts are making it through their bubble, but the algorithm sees that these folk like arguing back against the conservatives. But they are getting what they want. Stop responding to posts you don’t like. Stop forwarding their crap along. All that does is tell the algorithm that you like that stuff.
Revealed preferences. Angry people want stuff to be angry about, and the algorithm will accommodate them. They want to be validated that progressives are destroying the country, so they get fed validation. Ditto for those certain that conservatives are promoted fake news, they get fed the fake news that validates them.
The problem isn’t that there are algorithms designed to deliver personalized content, the problem is that people just haven’t learned to live with impartially personalized content. They spent their lives with curated content from people in news departments, or political leaders telling them how to think, or some other human being with a bias curating biased content just for them.
Note that I am NOT claiming that the algorithm is perfect. Not at all. I am merely claiming that it’s doing what it was ostensibly designed to do: deliver personalized content based on the user’s demonstrated preferences. I would tune it differently, but the idea that it was designed to be “progressive” or “conservative” is utter bullshit. The algorithm is agnostic.
SQRLSY One 2 months ago
EXCELLENT mini-essay there Brandybuck!!! People want contradictory things (incompatible with one another).
I for one, want to be the Catholic Pope, AND a famous porn star!
Bob Seger, He wants to live like a sailor at sea…
He wants his home and security
He wants to live like a sailor at sea
Beautiful loser, where you gonna fall?
You realize you just can’t have it all…
Dillinger 2 months ago
substitute prostitute for p0rn star and you can probably pull it off.
SQRLSY One 2 months ago
Whoa, why did I not think of that?!?! I’ll give it a try… Thanks! Excellent, VERY deductive, seductive, suggestive suggestion! Good for my digestion!
(I am a ho of the mo of the bro, and can rap my head around shit all around the hood, ass I should!)
Brandybuck 2 months ago
Having once hung out with the famous Starchild, being a prostitute is not all it’s made out to be. (Was not habbing secks with him, it was an LP thing). If all you want is sex all the time, just hang out in truckstops or be a bazillionaire like Trump or Weinstein grabbing all the pussies.
Ted AKA Teddy Salad, CIA/US Ballet Force 2 months ago
When you have enough money they come and grab your dick.
“an on-the-spot editorial decision whether to risk liability by allowing [their] continued publication” or else yield to the “natural incentive simply to remove messages upon notification, whether the contents were [unlawful] or not.”
The original situation with the law was that any moderation incurred liability, so the incentive was to not remove any messages. This made for open forums, but with questionable content which turned people away. Section 230’s intent was to allow light moderation against illegal and obscene content without incurring liability for what was left. What we have now is liability protection for heavy moderation, which turns the intent and incentives on their head. With any level of moderation not incurring liability, there is increased incentives to remove any content that the owners and staff of the platform do not like rather than maximize the freedom of the users to speak, which is the situation we find ourselves in now. Section 230, as currently applied, incentivizes suppression of unorthodox content. With the elite push to eliminate “misinformation’, that is, information that the intellectual/political establishments disapprove of (not necessarily untrue) is to be suppressed, Section 230 does not create a legal environment incentivizing freedom of thought and communication.
Exactly right
Disagree. This still, a bit, perpetrates the “immaculate fruit of a poisoned tree (in a poisoned orchard)” narrative.
The original situation with the law was that any moderation incurred liability, so the incentive was to not remove any messages. This made for open forums, but with questionable content which turned people away. Section 230’s intent was to allow light moderation against illegal and obscene content without incurring liability for what was left. What we have now is liability protection for heavy moderation, which turns the intent and incentives on their head.
This is generally, and the bold part specifically, incorrect. The forums on Compuserve’s servers weren’t unmoderated, it’s that Compuserve didn’t directly perform the moderation and, indirectly, wasn’t even really aware the moderation was being done or by whom. Cox and Wyden both found this unacceptable and in need of reversal.
At the same time, Prodigy’s servers weren’t just lightly moderated (e.g. no profane language) and the decision against prodigy wasn’t simply because they moderated. Prodigy had software written such that messages could immediately be elevated to the executive level for on-the-spot moderation outside any normal moderation policies or channels. The decision was made against Prodigy specifically because they had a heavier (and invisible) hand than what their policy indicated moderating content. Again, Cox and Wyden both found this unacceptable and in need of reversal.
Whether Cox and Wyden understood all this, per Corn-Revere’s first paragraph, is not known but, immaterial from a couple of perspectives. Namely, again per Corn-Revere’s first paragraph, the ’96 CDA passed with near unanimous support *and* was subsequently near-entirely dismantled because there is no “We didn’t know!” exception for Congress to the 1A.
He may have the rest of the paragraph right about how no greater freedom flows from Section 230. But, from the start and especially in the context of the rest of the CDA, section 230 was rather clearly written to reinforce top-down control and put Congress at the top. Section 230 only survived out of the religious(?) belief that if SCOTUS found fruit growing on a poisoned tree in poisoned soil, cut the fruit from the tree, and pulled the tree out to the roots, and left the fruit on the same ground, it somehow makes the fruit not poisonous.
Do you have any cites to back up your claim that “the incentive was to not remove any messages. This made for open forums…”.
I recall online forums such as Usenet being a free-for-all with little or no censorship. But Usenet was mostly run by universities and early tech companies, which had a free-for-all culture back then.
I recall sites such as AOL and Prodigy trying hard to convey a family-safe image and having lots of rules about content. But I’m not sure how valid my recall is about those platforms — I certainly wasn’t trying to do anything that would break rules there.
I just tried to search for some articles discussing how AOL-like services were back then, but I couldn’t find anything relevant. Do you have cites that back up your claim?
The following article is interesting. I'm still reading through it all:
https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs201/projects/nuremberg-files/censorship.html
Corn-Revere’s thesis is that the threat of taking on liability is a powerful incentive to avoid. The original legal environment was that liability is incurred on retained content if any moderation is done. Therefore, by the author’s own reasoning, the incentive was to not moderate.
Am I understanding you right that you are not recounting your personal experience of the pre-Section 230 Internet era (1983 – 1995) nor basing your claims on what you have read about that era — that you are, instead, trying to reason what it was like back then?
I have no idea how old you are, so I don’t know if you were around to experience the era we are discussing. I was.
While it is fair to criticize Musk for the way he selectively made this information available to journalists sympathetic to his position, the problem is a serious one
I need someone to break this one down for me. What’s the fair criticism of Musk’s release of the Twitter Files to journalists who wanted the information? Should he tried to also give access to the files to people who didn’t think there was a story there? She he have gone to seek his worst enemies and given them a chance to look through the Twitter Files before release?
Once the information is out there, people can do whatever they want with it. Plenty of people quickly dismissed it as old news, or not even newsworthy. Just good sense in Twitters part, right?
So any source who gives information to a particular journalist or news organization is fair to criticize? Deep Throat to Woodward and Bernstein? Bradley/Chelsea Manning to WikiLeaks?
What even is the criticism, though? Is it that they wanted someone to tell the story? Musk thought this was a big deal and gave the story to a journalist who also thought it was a big deal.
Unless it comes out that Taibbi had to sign a contract to prevent him ever saying bad things about Musk, I don’t see a controversy.
I think it can beg the question but, in and of itself though I see no problem.
I liked all OBLs Koch money post, not because I think the Koch bros are nefarious but they do have their own agenda and the reader should be reminded of it from time to time.
"What’s the fair criticism of Musk’s release of the Twitter Files to journalists who wanted the information?"
Good question, and below is your answer!
Just ONE of the MANY real problems here is that the Twitter files were SELECTIVELY AND PARTIALLY released by politically and otherwise biased Elonites!!! Who knows HOW much bullshit was pulled at Twitter-twatter-tweakers AT THE BEHEST OF JOSH HAWLEY ETC.!!! But THOSE kinds of things are NOT revealed to us!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files from there…
The installment releases have been criticized for alleged shortcomings, including exaggerating the contents’ significance, omissions of context, outright mendacity, partial reporting, conclusions reached in the reporting with counterclaims against, and described as “an egregious example of the very phenomenon it purports to condemn—that of social-media managers leveraging their platforms for partisan ends”.
SQRLSY comments: Note partial reporting… The INTERNAL EMAILS WERE NOT ALL RELEASED!!!! They were SELECTIVELY RELEASED!!!
Hence also from there “calls for the full release of all documents for the sake of transparency…”
Also FYI this (WHY were Elon and allies NOT trumpeting THIS one?)
https://gizmodo.com/donald-trump-chrissy-teigen-tweet-hunter-biden-hearing-1850089753
One of the most surprising revelations from the hearing didn’t involve Joe Biden or his prodigal son at all: in 2019, then-President Donald Trump demanded Twitter remove a post from model Chrissy Teigen in which the celebrity called Trump a “pussy ass bitch,” according to whistleblower and former Twitter safety policy team expert Anika Collier Navaroli. Twitter didn’t delete the tweet, but Teigen herself did.
Unless the demand is that he should have released the trove of internal communications, policies, programs and forums on the internet unfiltered this is just "how dare you reveal our shitty actions".
The criticism was that it would have been better for Musk to have done a complete dump, available to all journalists, of all raw email and communications he had, and let any of them comb through it. Instead, he made materials available to journalists he chose and they gave us seledcted glimpses of what they found.
So, in a sense, it's not true that "the information is out there". A selected, controlled view of the information is out there.
It was always going to be a controlled dump, though. There’s certain business records the business will not release, and perhaps plenty of things they contractually cannot release, due to privilege or user privacy or other issues.
One approach is to vet the material in advance yourself and release only the materials you’ve chosen. A second approach is to dump it all to a third party but set conditions in what they can make public, so they have to vet the information for you.
There was never going to be a Twitter Open House where they invite everyone to look through the servers that store every users’ log-on credentials. So while saying that not everything Twitter has is out in the open is a criticism, I don’t know if it’s a fair criticism.
Don't necessarily disagree with you.
I should make it clear this isn't my criticism of the Twitter Files. You were asking for someone to explain what the common criticism is.
Fair criticism: a billionaire basically hiring the reporters they want calls into question the validity of the reporters work. See the many OBL, Koch/Reason funding posts.
Uh, Libertarian Point-of-Order. When you say “basically hiring” do you mean hiring or not? That is OBL/Koch/Reason, I get the impression that if Chuckie K. walked into the Reason office, pointed at someone who said things he didn’t like, and said “You’re fired.”, said person would be expected to pack up their stuff post haste. Whereas, if Musk walked into Taibbi’s home and tried to fired him because he said something he didn’t like, Taibbi could/would update him on current events before making him GTFO.
My understanding is that Weiss and Taibbi, while granted special access, aren’t beholden to Musk beyond said access (i.e. a paycheck).
Yeah, this is bizarre reasoning. I guess in the case of Woodward and Bernstein, they were highly sympathetic to Nixon. So differences.
The attempts to modify section 230 will only strengthen the current social media companies. They are the only ones with the money and technology to adapt to new rules. It would make them true monopolies by preventing new competitors from ever getting started.
Disgree. Allowing users to sue for illegal contractual changes would force the companies to write clear and concise rules instead of lying about their rules. This is how far 230 protections have extended.
We can remove your content and ban you at any time for any reason
Those will be your clear and concise rules to agree to.
The attempts to modify section 230 will only strengthen the current social media companies.
All attempts to modify a law can only strengthen the law's regulatory power?
Fuck off, you retarded slaver!
This is a really good point. A lot of people don't think about how Section 230 applies to the little guys, too. It treats everything from a church website to Google the same.
Thought this article would summon Richard Gere’s squirrbil.
Adopted in 1996, Section 230 was proposed as a way to counter efforts to censor internet speech.
Someone give Reason a history lesson. The CDA was primarily and integrally a censorship law. Section 230 is a provision within the law that clarifies that responsibility for illegal speech to the speaker and that platforms are not responsible for it. The Good Samaritan provision within it likewise protects good faith attempts to moderate platforms without assigning liability for failure to do so. It doesn't make legal anything that was illegal. Gonzales v. Google is completely ridiculous because it's abundantly clear who actually posted all the Islamic State content on YouTube: The Islamic State. They are the correct targets for any wrongful death lawsuits, but the prosecution's contention ignores that because suing foreign terrorists is impossible and Google has a lot more money anyway. If SCOTUS does anything besides benchslap the fuck out of the petitioners they beclown the very concept of civil law and we will all suffer for it.
n00bdragon gets it! Good job!
IMHO, all that you say is true and aligned with common-sense understandings of justice. Punish the evil-doers, NOT the nearest bystander with deep pockets! However, I also do NOT see where ANYTHING you've said, conflicts with the article (by the Revered Reverend Revere) above. Hence, I don't see the need for a history lesson. On the other hand, additional facts and well-informed opinions should always be welcome, of course.
I’m a big fan and defender of Section 230, but I don't see where it extends any protection to recommendation algorithms, so I think Gonzales v Google is a valid and important case.
I don’t know all the applicable law that will be argued, but here’s how I hope the decision works out: I hope the Supreme Court essentially rules that people are responsible for their own life decisions. And, so, in this case that Google didn’t make anyone join the Islamic State — if you join up with a terrorist organization that should be on you.
but I don’t see where it extends any protection to recommendation algorithms
It doesn't have to, because recommendation algorithms have nothing to do with section 230 protections. If Google wrote an algorithm that deliberately pushed any terrorist content it could find to users, that wouldn't be protected, but that's not what Google's algorithms do (if they did, it would be simple to write an algorithm that didn't push terrorist content). The problem is that the algorithm basically just recommends videos that other people watched. When a bunch of people watch a new islamic state content, the algorithm notices them watching it and tells other people who typically view the same videos that a new video is out and they might like to watch it. Whether the video is about knitting or beheading gays the computer has no idea, and there's no way for it to tell.
Even accounting for that, while YouTube has a policy of removing any terrorist content that they find, that private policy is not a legal requirement. The 1st amendment protects the right to create, distribute, and view videos (or any media) glorifying islamic theocracy and terrorism, along with many other extremely objectionable ideologies. So, this lawsuit is double stupid. It's accusing Google of breaking a law that doesn't even apply to what it's doing and even if it did, the activity would be iron-clad protected by the 1st amendment.
"It doesn’t have to, because recommendation algorithms have nothing to do with section 230 protections."
Hmm, it's odd then that many expect the outcome of Gonzales v Google to affect on Section 230. I guess it's because there's a lot of talk about Section 230 these days, so pundits and politicians will make Gonzales v Google about Section 230, whether 230 has anything to do with the case or not.
Your description of how the Google recommendation algorithm works is probably spot on, but the lawsuit itself posits a much more personally targeted algorithm. Hopefully, the defense can explain this all so that the Justices, who may not be the most tech-savvy people in the world, get it.
(Of course, everything about YouTube is an algorithm. Even if Google only displayed videos in chronological order of upload, it would still be an algorithm.)
If the left gets their way platforms will be sued for what they don't censor, and if the right gets their way platforms will be sued for what they do censor. If they both get their way platforms will be like "Fuck this" and find a new line of work.
And-or, we'll need to pay $15 per word for our posts, to pay the armies of woke leftist social workers and conservatively-politically-correct lawyers, and who knows WHO all else, to vet our posts!
Weird both sides. Government censorship vs no censorship. Which one is libertarian.... and your characterization is incorrect. The right still wants to disallow illegal content. Just not politically censored content for platforms claiming there is no political censorship.
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
Who is being charged, the poster or the site, what are the specific charges, and who is bringing them?
The site (with deep pockets) is being charged, of course! ONLY if the poster has deep pockets also, will the poster be charged ass well!
Bottom-feeding lawyers are bringing the charges, because they want to get $$$$ RICH!!!!
Ministry of Truth charges are "peddling lies which are NOT approved of, by the political party currently holding Government Almighty power".
Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings charges, ass one would expect, are "Hurting the Precious Baby Feelings of Sensitive Souls".
I’d have to pull a Larry David during voir dire to get myself the hell out of there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94zkBGm1IoU
If they both get their way platforms will be like “Fuck this” and find a new line of work.
By "“Fuck this” and find a new line of work." you mean like refusing to push Russiagate long after the narrative is bunk, refusing to push CDC COVID narratives and silencing dissenting doctors, and publishing the details about Hunter Biden's laptop in a timely manner?
You mean to suggest they'll say "Fuck this" and quit doing all that?
I mean "If we post this content then we're getting sued by Democrats, and if we don't post it we're getting sued by Republicans. Fuck this." *click*
*click*
Click what? They'll shut it all down, bankrupt themselves and the investors, and kick *all* the employees to the curb (this time) at the flick of a switch? Dream on.
You probably think the ban on strip mining is why everybody stopped trying to mine for coal too, right?
I bet you think newspapers and magazines will keep their comments section after being sued by Democrats when readers post "misinformation," and sued by Republicans when they moderate it.
You mean the way Compuserve continued to support its forums after Cubby, Inc. filed suit in 1991? An action and decision that Sen. Wyden (D) specifically wrote S230 to 'correct'? Yes. Yes I do.
We’ll see.
There are a lot of people out there with nothing to gain who say getting rid of 230 will have a chilling effect on the internet, while the people who say otherwise tend to be partisans with an axe to grind.
At least that's what I've seen.
We’
llve seen.I know this is all really difficult for you to keep track of, but 1991 is in the past.
There are a lot of people out there with nothing to gain who say getting rid of 230 will have a chilling effect on the internet, while the people who say otherwise tend to be partisans with an axe to grind.
You know that if you grind an axe, you don't actually gain anything, right? That someone with "nothing to gain" may also just have an axe to grind.
The people I see who want to abolish 230 are partisans with an axe to grind, as in they are itching to initiate lawsuits against internet platforms for political reasons.
I can't tell if you're saying that the lawsuits won't happen, or that nobody will change their behavior if they do.
If you're saying lawsuits won't happen, then why eliminate immunity?
If you're saying nobody will change their behavior to avoid lawsuits, then you're thinking like leftists who refuse to even consider unintended consequences because that would mean intentions don't equal results.
If you’re saying lawsuits won’t happen, then why eliminate immunity?
"I don't actually care if officers beat more people to death or abuse their powers more often without QI. Just as long as they can be sued." - sarcasmic
Once again, when it comes to actual police wrongdoing you're obviously, even retardedly, a "shit that didn't happen" anti-police zealot but, pretty much anywhere else, you consistently demonstrate yourself to be the most shameless "Why not have more ineffective and disinformative laws on the books?", cop-sucking-gloryhole attendant. Almost like the anti-police zealotry is a facade.
You’re taking immunity to internet platforms from getting sued for what they do or don’t do with third party content, and equating it with immunity to government actors using force?
Really?
Edit: I was afraid to revisit this thread. Didn’t want to see how far you’d go to defend your position. But to attack me and my opposition to QI for the police, and equate that with immunity for guys who host servers that other people play on?
Again.
Really?
You’re taking immunity to internet platforms from getting sued for what they do or don’t do with third party content, and equating it with immunity to government actors using force?
Really?
I didn't equate anything. I analogized one form of government protection, civil immunity even, for another. Not even really that far of a stretch. If you don't care if people get hurt by one form of government protection or the other, why would you care about repealing either one? Would you feel better if cops shook down 10,000 people for $10 rather than 10 people for $10K or 1 for $100K and faced no consequences? If cops seized and shut down somebody's paypal, patreon, youtube, amazon, twitter, and facebook accounts at the wrong address and faced no consequences?
If you're uncomfortable with the analogy, maybe it's because you're uncomfortable admitting to yourself what you really do for cops and authoritarians when you think no one's looking.
Look, K street lobbyists have nothing to gain so you should totally listen to them.
They aren’t the ones posting it though…
There's an old saying that goes, "How do you know when a politician is lying? His lips are moving." These days, one can ask, "How do you know when Section 230 is being misunderstood?" and answer, "A politician is talking about it."
Note: For the purposes of this article's narrative this *entire* *first* paragraph's truth/truism will be selectively observed and ignored throughout the rest of the story (indeed, the immediately following paragraph conveniently ignores it). In traditional English writing, this would render the piece a work of fiction and/or the writer or narrator as unreliable.
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Who wants to bet that this guy's LLP has at least one social media company as a client and this is Reason doing PR for continuing censorship.
He's a lawyer from DC. AFAICT, even without a client in his LLP, his MO is to have no principles and interpret things wrongly in order to attract clients.
Like finding a lawyer in the CHAZ to lecture on housing, equity, individual rights, and communal sovereignty.
The author of this piece submitted an amicus brief supporting Google in Gonzales v. Google on behalf of the Chamber of Progress.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_of_Progress
So, for the 4-yr. Reason Magazine internal "Who would you vote for?" presidential poll, you're like 85% sure we can count on Corn-Revere to fall into the "Trump" category and even things out somewhat, right?
So essentially a minion of marxist social media companies. Thanks.
It's not that the internet doesn't have problems, or that some of the large tech companies haven't bungled their attempts to manage the flow of online traffic on their platforms
"Bungled". Sure, let's go with that. Like John Wilkes Booth bungled his attempt to converse with Abraham Lincoln. It's interesting that you admit it's their attempt to "manage the flow of online traffic" rather than to simply allow free speech. Why is anybody being censored on the internet? Because they're annoying, obnoxious, spamming, trolling, won't stay on topic, are rude, crude, foul-mouthed, lots of reasons a comment board might block somebody from posting. But social media exists specifically to allow everybody a voice as long as they're not committing criminal speech. It's not like the comment board at AutoTrader where commenters can be restricted to talking about autos or DCComicFans where commenters are expected to be discussing topics related to comics or RecipeRanch where you're limited to sharing recipes and cooking-related topics or WeLoveBarney where you can be booted off the site for posting purple dinosaur porn. Anybody and everybody should be allowed to express an opinion on Twitter or Facebook or YouTube or all the other imitation sites.
You have a cute notion of "how the Internet should be".
But if you want government to tell private companies how to run their businesses (beyond just following the law, like everyone else), the government should pay them fair compensation.
Summary: Republicans and Democrats want to cut off the Internet's nose to spite its face.
Once again, Reason's obliviousness of having an article titled "The Feds Are Buying Their Way Around the 4th Amendment" while, simultaneously, having this article defending The FedGov's use of corporate actors and S230 to skirt the 1A.
Whether you happen to luck into some Gel-Mann on behalf of your readership or are counting on it, it would strongly indicate that you either consider or even want to keep your readership stupid rather than anything to do with advocating freedom 4A, 1A, or other.
Since I was just talking about comparisons between the First Amendment and Section 230 yesterday, I gave this one a thorough read.
The comparison doesn't really work. As the author pointed out, attempts to amend Section 230 have actually butted against 1A protections. No matter what happens with Section 230, it still can't be rewritten to violate free speech or free press. So the idea that it's the bedrock of the internet isn't necessarily accurate since the internet will still have the first amendment to call upon.
So it really just comes down to the moderation of content. There's a "Good Faith" clause in there which is meant to serve as a liability shield. It wouldn't hurt to actually see a lawsuit proceed on the basis that moderation decisions aren't being made in good faith. In practice, however, it's become carte blanche to let people moderate in any method they like, even shutting down viewpoints that they don't like which are explicitly within their terms of service.
Good Faith is asking people in a discussion thread to stay reasonably on topic. I don't think anyone objects to good faith moderation. Your mother's knitting group isn't and shouldn't be forced to host kitten snuff videos. But when people are being banned for merely sharing their thoughts in an open venue like Twitter, that doesn't have subject matter restrictions, where is the good faith?
It would not hurt to actually hear a few 230 cases to establish what it means for content moderators to act "in good faith." And if that's not possible, then perhaps 230 actually does need some legislative attention.
So the idea that it’s the bedrock of the internet isn’t
necessarilyaccurate since the internet will still have the first amendment to call upon.You're being too kind to the knowingly disinformative, stupidity-inducing, ass-backwardsness, creeping-crypto-Marxist interpretation of the whole situation. Saying S230 is the bedrock of the internet is like saying the NTSB is the bedrock of commuter safety, the FAA is the bedrock of powered flight, or the DOE is the bedrock of public education. No, flatly wrong. People were driving cars, planning city traffic, and getting driver's licenses more or less safely decades before the NTSB even existed. Charles Lindbergh completed the first powered, solo transatlantic flight three decades before the FAA existed. The DOE doesn't runs schools, the States do, and they were doing it before the DOE existed. People were conversing, including buying and selling shit, on the internet, well before Section 230.
Acting “in good faith” is an ethical-moral-spiritual issue, not a legal issue. It is WAAAAY too loosey-goosey to lead to anything other than endless fights (and wasted time and money) among endless armies of lawyers, judges, and law-makers. It is like laws requiring "reasonable efforts" to accommodate the handicapped. The results there were cases of lawyers endlessly suing over safety rails 38.5 inches high and not 39 inches high., etc., burdening property owners over absurdly silly things, in order to enrich lawyers... After the regulators got ahold of this WAAAAAY too vaguely formulated law, and tried to enforce it.
Acting “in good faith” isn't specific enough... If loosey-goosey laws were effective, we would need just ONE such law... "Everyone will be require to make a good-faith, reasonable effort to love one another". There, we've just fell-swoop eliminated half of human suffering, excluding natural death and diseases, floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.!
Good faith is used in contracts all the time. And it works.
Abuse of vague laws is indisputable by those who are arguing "in good faith"!
https://medium.com/@Rep.ScottPeters/curbing-abuse-of-the-americans-with-disabilities-act-2be9a8661b95 (That's a random grab; there are BUTT-TONs of more sites out there that show specific severe cases of this.)
So then ALL of this abuse of this law could be made to go away by adding the phrase "in good faith" to that law, in there, somewhere?
This is an interesting article relevant to your comment:
https://www.techdirt.com/2021/03/29/appeals-court-actually-explores-good-faith-issue-section-230-case-spoiler-alert-it-still-protects-moderation-choices/
I’ll have to dig deeper through it later when I’m not on my phone, but even a quick scan through that gives me pause. They called content moderation and “editorial decision.” But that then changed the framing of what social media is: if they’re making editorial decisions, that would make them a publisher. And publishers have different liabilities than content hosts. It seems that making an editorial decision then bypasses their 230 protection.
If Twitter wants to be a news outlet, then it’s suddenly quite liable if it chooses not to squelch defamatory or slanderous speech.
"And publishers have different liabilities than content hosts."
And why is this a good thing? Is it EVER good to punish ONE person or business, for what some OTHER party has written? Why not add a "Section 230 for hardcopy rags"? If Joe Biden writes a guest editorial for the NY Times, and his words contain libel and-or slander, WHO should be sued, the NY Times, or Joe Biden? WHY is it NOT a good enough defense for the NY Times, to preface the Joe Biden editorial with "Joe Biden wrote this, we did not"? If Joe Biden wrote this, then what offense did the NY Times commit? If I report the TRUTH that "the bum under the bridge said that he wants to kill me", who, if anyone, should be punished, the bum, or me?
"And publishers have different liabilities than content hosts."
Section 230: "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
"If Twitter wants to be a news outlet"
Section 230 says nothing about an exemption from the above rule if you consider yourself a news outlet. What matters is who originated the piece of content. If the "news outlet" didn't originate the piece of content, then it is not treated as the speaker or publisher of the content.
"(2) Civil liability
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of—
(A) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or
(B) any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or others the technical means to restrict access to material described in paragraph (1)."
So, in other words, under this provision an ISP or platform cannot be sued in civil court for taking any action in good faith to restrict access to material that the provider subjectively considers to be "objectionable"--whether or not such material is constitutionally protected.
The courts have interpreted the "good faith" requirement, but it's such a limited tool that it's really not going to do what you want it to do. The main case was where Google tried to shut down a competitor using content moderation, and the court held that wasn't a good faith objection to content. E-Ventures Worldwide v. Google (2016).
Tech companies brought this on themselves.
The law was written under the belief that sites would have
clear and concise rules on what is not allowed,
enforce those rules in a neutral unbiased manner, and
cite the specific infraction when a comment or commentator is removed.
Instead social platforms wrote vague rules, enforced them arbitrarily, and refused to inform banned posters of the exact infraction.
"The law was written under the belief that sites would have
clear and concise rules on what is not allowed,
enforce those rules in a neutral unbiased manner, and
cite the specific infraction when a comment or commentator is removed."
Do you have any cites documenting that there was this expectation?
“A cite! A cite! My kingdom for a cite!”
- A gangly, squawking, yellow bird
Private property laws in the USA were written with the expectation that rich people would be generous to the poor.
The rich have NOT done their fair share! They've obviously brought redistribution, retribution, and Marxism down upon their rich, fat heads, and have NO ONE to blame, but themselves!
One thing all governments will not tolerate: the existence of something utilized by individuals which they cannot control.
Congress doesn't move unless it's funded to move and Zuck et al. are the Funding Fathers.
"How do you know when Section 230 is being misunderstood?"
Reason is writing about it.
Bingo!
https://reason.com/2023/02/16/section-230-and-the-curse-of-politics/?comments=true#comment-9928707
Diane/Paul, are you aware who “Reason” is in this particular case? Do you know who Bob Corn-Revere is?
I do indeed. He's a DC corporate lawyer that Reason invited to write for their magazine.
One bought and paid for by google,facebook and the rest. So stunning and brave.
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"The larger the platform, the greater the risk of liability—and the greater the need for protection."
The above is exactly wrong. And that premise is what is screwing up "the internet" today. "Protection" always means Government intervention of some sort, usually by nano-intellects in Congress.
What is needed, is less "protection" - not more. Let Internet use evolve in a world of legal parasites, parent groups, Government censorship attempts.
"Let Internet use evolve in a world of legal parasites, parent groups, Government censorship attempts."
To hell with the private property rights of web site owners? Bring on the Government Almighty parasites and Karens and micro-managers? And MORE Marxism? Did you know that Marxism has already been tried before, and led to the wasted (un-needed) deaths of (conservatively) 110 million people?
That's just it. "Protection", in this case, is basically just a euphemism for a grant of government privilege. There are longstanding rules for publisher liability for slander and libel. And for material protected by intellectual property law. What Section 230 did was basically said, "Yeah, we're going to keep that law in place. But, we like these guys. So, it doesn't apply to them."
And for some reason, that I can't fully grasp, a number of "libertarians" have somehow gotten it into their heads that standing behind grants of government privilege for large and powerful companies is a key point of libertarian thought. It's like if the government were to say "We're not going to get rid of product liability laws. But, GM and Ford? Yeah, you can't sue them anymore."
You’re part of the mob, aren’t you, gangster? For a small fee, you tell small businesses that you will “protect” them… From you and your mob! Refute the below, ye greedy authoritarian who wants to shit all over the concept of private property!
Look, I’ll make it pretty simple for simpletons. A prime argument of enemies of Section 230 is, since the government does such a HUGE favor for owners of web sites, by PROTECTING web site owners from being sued (in the courts of Government Almighty) as a “publisher”, then this is an unfair treatment of web site owners! Who SHOULD (lacking “unfair” section 230 provisions) be able to get SUED for the writings of OTHER PEOPLE! And punished by Government Almighty, for disobeying any and all decrees from Government Almighty’s courts, after getting sued!
In a nutshell: Government Almighty should be able to boss around your uses of your web site, because, after all, Government Almighty is “protecting” you… From Government Almighty!!!
Wow, just THINK of what we could do with this logic! Government Almighty is “protecting” you from getting sued in matters concerning who you chose to date or marry… In matters concerning what line of work you chose… What you eat and drink… What you read… What you think… Therefore, Government Almighty should be able to boss you around on ALL of these matters, and more! The only limits are the imaginations and power-lusts of politicians!
And here's SQRLSY insisting on grants of corporate privilege. But, he's the One True Libertarian (tm) donchaknow!
Since Bill Dalasio is "specially protected" from being sued in the courts of Government Almighty, concerning who Bill Dalasio will marry, or drink a beer with, or when Bill Dalasio will blow Bill Dalasio's nose, Bill Dalasio's choices in ALL of these matters is "fair game" for Government Almighty's micro-management, at the behest of 51% of the voters! Sounds like a libertarian stance to me!
Except, dumbass, laws around publishing libel and other people's intellectual property aren't unique to the tech giants. They proceeded them by centuries. If you want to make a case that neither should exist, you might have an argument there. Although I'm pretty sure the tech giants wouldn't be all too keen on getting rid of intellectual property. But, that's not what 230 does and you know it. You just want to evade that fact because, for some strange reason, you think giving grants of legal privilege to giant corporations is libertarian.
Giving grants of legal privilege to giant corporations is libertarian, yes indeed, when these are privileges that rightly belong to ALL of us! Such as free speech and property rights! We are NOT talking about "special privileges" such as murder or theft by deception here, and they are NOT "special privileges" doled out selectively to "special people", no matter HOW often these lies are told! NO ONE is named by name in Section 230, for being granted "special privileges"!!!
The TINY germ of truth here is that hardcopy rags have unjustly been punished for what OTHER people have written, in the past! This means (to people who have brains and understand an iota about "justice") that we need to add a "Section 230 for hardcopy rags". NOT to "fix" things by breaking the internet!
Sooo… Your “fix” to all of this is to punish “publishers” (web sites) for the content generated by OTHER people? Those who post?
SOME people here have argued that, since there has been at least one (several?) case(s) of hardcopy rags (newspapers) sued FOR THE WRITINGS OF OTHERS, namely letter-to-the-editor writers (it was all well and good to authoritarians that SOME people got punished for the writings of OTHER people), then the proper fix MUST be to perpetrate / perpetuate this obvious injustice right on over to the internet domain!
This is like arguing that the “fix” for a cop strangling to death, a black man (Eric Garner) on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies” is, not to STOP the injustice, but rather, to go and find some White and Hispanic and Asian men as well, and strangle them, as well, on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies”! THAT will make it all “fair”!
WHEN will authoritarians see and acknowledge their power-pig fascism?!?!
NY Times can be punished for what someone ELSE wrote in a letter-to-the-editor in their hardcopy rag! An injustice, to be “fixed” by punishing Facebook for the same kind of offenses!
In 1850, I imagine that perhaps some people in the USA were saying it isn’t fair that white folks hold black folks as slaves. Let’s “fix” it by having a bunch of black folks hold white slaves, too!
What kind of EVIL person fixes injustice by widening the spread of more injustice of the same kind? HOW does this “fix” ANYTHING?!?!
Eh, I’m reminded of the people who would love to sue gun companies out of business. Because nothing bad would happen if guns weren’t made. And they’d find judges and juries to help them do it.
When the court system is being used to take away our rights, I stop looking at the ability to sue anyone for everything in a state-run-and-paid-for court as “freedom!”
Again, like I say above, Section 230 doesn't protect some novel area of law, like products serving their intended purpose as intended. It specifically carves out an exception to established law for a few powerful players.
I don’t see how protecting gun manufacturers from lawsuits is less a protection for a few powerful players providing products as intended than protecting YouTube from lawsuits for hosting videos some people don’t like.
You have an established rule that has been part of the law for centuries (publishers share liability for what they publish). Not making an exception for a few companies is just the default. Equal protection under the law.
You forbid making up a new rule that has no basis anywhere in Western jurisprudence.
The two aren't a contradiction.
"Not making an exception for a few companies is just the default."
Can you name me just ONE company that is named in S-230 for a "special exception" to these new-ish (S-230) provisions? S-230 provisions apply to ALL web site owners in the USA, of which there must be many millions!
Also this...
And why is this (punishing "publishers" for what others have written) a good thing? Is it EVER good to punish ONE person or business, for what some OTHER party has written? Why not add a “Section 230 for hardcopy rags”? If Joe Biden writes a guest editorial for the NY Times, and his words contain libel and-or slander, WHO should be sued, the NY Times, or Joe Biden? WHY is it NOT a good enough defense for the NY Times, to preface the Joe Biden editorial with “Joe Biden wrote this, we did not”? If Joe Biden wrote this, then what offense did the NY Times commit
If I report the TRUTH that “the bum under the bridge said that he wants to kill me”, who, if anyone, should be punished, the bum, or me?
Pretty sure you're arguing with a troll. The duplicity in the equivocation between gun manufacturers and social media companies has been beaten to death.
Aside from your point(s)-
Firearms lawsuits: Intended use.
Social Media lawsuits: WTF is "intended use"?
Firearms lawsuits: Governors and State AGs can't sue, unless their personal gun is defective, per the 2A.
Social Media lawsuits: Governors, AGs, Sheriffs... all can still sue, just not users, completely backwards of the 1A (and 2A).
Firearms lawsuits: By law, manufacturer sells to dealer/distributor sells to customer, few deals are manufacturer direct and overwhelmingly the manufacturer has no idea who the customer/end user are (and threatening Governors and State AGs have promised to void the presumption of innocence up the chain).
Social Media lawsuits: Social media *is* the direct dealer/distributor.
etc.
etc.
etc.
Firearms lawsuits: The more that we sue the "deep pockets" instead of the REAL offenders, the more that you will pay for guns and ammo. You ready to pay $15 K for a gun, and $35 per round of ammo?
Social Media lawsuits: The more that we sue the "deep pockets" instead of the REAL offenders, the more that you will pay for posting. You ready to pay $25 per word?
Well, the two cases may seem superficially the same to you, but they are not actually the same. For example, when guns are used illegally, the gun manufacturer has no control over that use.
When Google publishes illegal or libelous material, they do have control over that use and they can stop publishing that material instantly, they just choose not to. We know that because they stop other material they don't like instantly.
In the past, the argument was that it was too burdensome to classify material, but that's obviously a lie now since they classify everything they publish based on target demographic, advertising placement, and conformance to their own preferences.
In the past, the argument was that it was too burdensome to classify material, but that’s obviously a lie now
It was a lie, or part of one, then.
Google, FB, Twitter, etc. (to regulators and users): We have no control over access to this material. We can't control who sees it.
Google, FB, Twitter, etc. (to investors and advertisers): We have unprecedentedly exclusive reach and control over this material. Advertising in the old days was haphazard hit or miss but today, we can control *exactly* who sees your ad!
Section 230 was passed in 1996, before targeted advertising, Google, Facebook, or Twitter.
That is probably because you're a marxist troll or you're stupid. The fact is the protections for gun manufacturers only reverts back to normal product liability given motivated ill-intentioned suits by the anti-gun lobby. Would you stand for Ford being sued for every drunk driver? Or perhaps your local grocery store sued to oblivion for fat people dying early.
"While it is fair to criticize Musk for the way he selectively made this information available to journalists sympathetic to his position"
FK that. He gave it to independent journalists. For example Matt Taibbi is a lefty. And the rest of the msm has ignored it. At least you mentioned it. But the bias here is dripping.
The tech companies that benefit from Section 230 need to operate as platforms. Like phone service, Internet service, energy utility service, etc. There should be no canceling, banning, censoring based on content except by narrow definition of law where that content is materially harmful or obscene. I get X-porn feeds on Facebook, but they banned people questioning the CDC on Covid data. Google filters its search returns to a left woke ideology. None of this meets the spirit and intent of Section 230. Either you are a publisher or a platform. There is no in-between.
Such a law would be a good thing, but Section 230 isn't such a law.
We do need a law that defines clearly what a hosting platform is, basically something that operates like a phone company or Internet provider, something that does not examine or filter content except under court order.
Discussion forums, etc. need to be legally separate entities that can operate on hosting platforms, but are then responsible for content they publish, the way any other publisher is.
Section 230 does nothing to prevent government regulation or control of social media platforms. Section 230 primarily prevents civil lawsuits against large Internet platforms.
And that kind of legal protection mainly serves the monopolistic interests of those large Internet platforms, since large Internet platforms are the primary targets of big lawsuits.
Yes, in the same way laws against theft mainly benefit people with property. So unfair.
Laws against theft benefit all property owners. Section 230 benefits a few gigantic near-monopolies.
That's only one of many problems with your analogy.
Correct. And that is why this legislation serves the monopolistic interests of large platforms. That's why they lobbied for it.
Without Section 230, large, monopolistic platforms would be replaced by tens of thousands of small alternatives: much harder to censor and much harder to sue.
And of course Reason is fully on board with this kind of cronyism and regulatory capture.
"the greater the need for protection" is essentially an argument in favor of tragedy of the commons *at scale*, a.k.a. TBTF and utterly retarded.
Like saying a large sewage plant upstream of a larger town should get more protection from liability from spills than a smaller plant in a smaller town because the larger one is way more likely to spill way more shit on way more people.
He's literally arguing in favor of using the law to create the biggest moral hazard possible.
It's a miracle that anything made it through federal government that is as fair and well thought out as 230.
Fuck off anarchists, I don't give a fuck about your "all government is bad" bullshit.
Back to the topic, we need 230 to have the internet as it exists today as a relatively open platform vs what China and Russia have, and even Europe (which is not nearly as bad as the previous two, but still bad). So I'm glad to see some respect for it here at reason. I have my fingers crossed that originalism will win out here on the Supreme Court but we'll see.
eh fuck off with that "all big corps are bad". Without 230 small companies will be sued incessantly for anything that they host. It's stupid as fuck to think it should be undone and that MAGAs get to sue everyone they don't like because they put up some article about Covid
In Canis Credimus, THANKS for serving as a voice of sanity in this wilderness of pain here! (You're not the only one, but, suffice it to say, sanity is all too rare around here. I just read some old comments from 2018 here at this site, and we have gone WAAAAAY the hell downhill from there! You can thank the Trump cultists!)
Yes, S-230 is an all-too-rare case where Government Almighty DID get something right, by limiting its own powers! I would utterly DREAD to read of it being replaced, because I KNOW that the replacement would be FAR worse, in today's politically-tribalistic environment!
"It’s a miracle that anything made it through federal government that is as fair and well thought out as 230."
Amen. Every once in a while government works well.
Temporarily. When ku-klux Democrats screeching "we wuz robbed" murdered six dozen Blacks in Louisiana, the Supremacy Court reinterpreted the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to say it was OK. Southern Democrat White Terror spread like wildfire and the Tilden's win was traded for the Cruikshank precedent that says slavery, genocide, girl-bullying and election-rigging are legal as sea salt under today's Kleptocracy, provided the libertarians get beaten.
Well, it was originally attached to a monstrosity which was gutted by the courts. Not so much of a plan but a lucky result.
Government frequently works well for billionaires and big corporations, including Google.
I have my fingers crossed that originalism will win out here on the Supreme Court but we’ll see.
Originalism would be: "Congress shall make no law [sic] abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people [sic] to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." and striking down a law, passed by Congress, titled, "Protection For 'Good Samaritan' Blocking and Screening of Offensive Material" for superficial and obvious conflict with the 1A... as the rest of the CDA was struck down.
Nonsense. S.230 limits civil liability, not any law made by Congress.
Did you read it?
BOTH halves of the looter Kleptocracy have vowed to impose the sort of control Josef Goebbels obtained with the help of Quandt, Krupp, von Finck and other Nazi corporate mobsters and fastened onto Germany. But now Germany's own Lootveeg fon Meeses brainwashees have Anschlussed us a smaller, harder, angrier girl-bullying anarco-fascist party instead of the free-speech laissez-faire LP that grew vote share 12% a year from 1972-76. What's a voter to do? Maybe it's time for a reset back to Libertarian Originalist planks.
Pre-Code movies undermined support for prohibition and other Christianofascist policies. Fearful Hollywood moguls adopted a self-censoring Code as a hedge against backlash. Germany's consul in Los Angeles promptly used the Code to pressure Hollywood to censor all movie content unfavorable to Hitler's Christian dictatorship. Only Warner Brothers had the guts to stand up to Nazi policies--until Germany declared war on the USA. By then all of Europe was awash in collectivist brainwashing. Read "Hitler in Los Angeles" for details.
“… did this by walking a delicate line. “
And that’s as far as I could stomach this nonsense. They gave tech a 100% get out of jail free card for behavior no other business was allowed, nor should have been. They placed no sunset on what was claimed to be an initiative to “protect a fledgling industry” – well, those are now the largest companies in the world! Time to yank the training wheels and repeal 230 in it’s entirety.
Your tinfoil hate-hat is BADLY in need of re-calibration!
SECTION 230 fascism HUMPTY DUMPTY FRUMPTY TRUMPTY AAAARRRRRRGGGHHH
I find it weird that the main people here who declare "no team" all use the exact same hyperbolic strawman strategy as sqrsly did in its first post. Jeff, sarc, mike, and now sqrsly. All the ones defending big government often while attacking those of us against big government. Strawman arguments as their opening in thread after thread.
As far as the article, 230 is a government enforced legal liability given to a specific industry. One whose terms have been stretched so far as to cover the company's bad behaviors. The companies require arbitration and courts in California, whose judges they fund. Lawsuit after lawsuit including contractual suits have been dismissed under 230 claims to always protect the company against bad and dishonest behavior towards customers. Megan Murphy removed not for violating a rule, but for having rules changed on her and then applied retroactively to remove her. She worked under the agreed to terms she signed up for. Then account removed. Judge declares 230 protections against suit.
Now we see government working hand in hand with these companies. Not only threatening regulation but paying these companies to do things government is not allowed to do. And the claims remain.. protection under 230.
We all knew that shit eater would be shit posting as soon as we saw the title.
"As far as the article, 230 is a government enforced legal liability given to a specific industry."
Moron doesn't even know how to write down what moron actually means!!! Moron MEANS to write, "...230 is a government enforced LACK OF legal liability..." (for what OTHER people have written!!!)
And to THAT argument, I say...
Hey EvilBahnFuhrer… No matter HOW many times you tell your “Big Lie”, it is NOT true! You’re part of the mob, aren’t you, gangster? For a small fee, you tell small businesses that you will “protect” them… From you and your mob! Refute the below, ye greedy authoritarian who wants to shit all over the concept of private property!
Look, I’ll make it pretty simple for simpletons. A prime argument of enemies of Section 230 is, since the government does such a HUGE favor for owners of web sites, by PROTECTING web site owners from being sued (in the courts of Government Almighty) as a “publisher”, then this is an unfair treatment of web site owners! Who SHOULD (lacking “unfair” section 230 provisions) be able to get SUED for the writings of OTHER PEOPLE! And punished by Government Almighty, for disobeying any and all decrees from Government Almighty’s courts, after getting sued!
In a nutshell: Government Almighty should be able to boss around your uses of your web site, because, after all, Government Almighty is “protecting” you… From Government Almighty!!!
Wow, just THINK of what we could do with this logic! Government Almighty is “protecting” you from getting sued in matters concerning who you chose to date or marry… In matters concerning what line of work you chose… What you eat and drink… What you read… What you think… Therefore, Government Almighty should be able to boss you around on ALL of these matters, and more! The only limits are the imaginations and power-lusts of politicians!
Refute it, moron! It can NOT be refuted honestly!
Folks can claim whatever tribe to which they belong. Their actual positions on issues is how I evaluate (in real life, it is what a person does that matters). If ML and RMac claim to be progressives, that is incongruent with their many stated positions on concepts, ideas and events.
I have ridiculed Pluggo with, “Pluggo criticizes both major political parties, except for the Democrats.”
Well thats because Open Societies is the one true party. Which he refuses to acknowledge is part of DNC leadership.
WHICH party is it today that is lusting for one-party rule? WHICH party's cultists are often claiming that only votes for THEIR party are valid?
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It really should immediately make us think of Krystallnacht. Hitler and the NAZIs set up for this by constantly blaming Jews for all things bad. Jew-haters will be Jew-haters, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Hitler was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It is fun asking questions to where they attempt to pivot to ambiguity. I think part of that is just the NPC sheep in them emotionally following their feelingz. I respect “second kind of cool” when folks acknowledge they are doing that.
Google is by and by paying $27485 to $29658 consistently for taking a shot at the web from home. I have joined this action 2 months back and I have earned $31547 in my first month from this action. I can say my life is improved completely! Take a gander at it what I do…..
For more detail visit the given link……….>>> http://Www.jobsrevenue.com
Odd that you don't even explain what §230 does: it exempts companies from liability for DEFAMATION which should not be a crime, as libertarians like Rothbard and Block have explained. Nor do you mention the parallel safe harbor in the DMCA for copyright infringement liability--copyright, another law that is unjust and should be abolished. Libertarians should oppose all forms of so-called intellectual property law: patent, copyright, defamation (libel and slander), trademark, trade secret law, all of it.
Like a drunk to Colt 45 or a simp to ENB tweets?
If you are promoting some statements & banning others, then you are acting as a publisher &, thus, you aren't really "hosting" at all. If we repeal 230, it would force them to choose between publishing and hosting - it would make the Web even more of a free for all (less govt. is always better). The problem is that a "private" company cannot possibly be private when Big Govt is around, so you need to prevent Big Govt from outsourcing censorship. 230 should go. If they want to promote/demote, they are publishers, pure & simple.
As soon as Reason.com takes down a kiddie-porn link-post, then Reason.com is a publisher, subjected to more Government Almighty micro-management? And this will make things better... How?!?!?
Just curious. Have you ever read Section 230? Here it is:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230
The problem with section 230 is that it takes the wrongheaded approach to internet corruption.
1. It fails to define the criteria to determine criminal speech. 2. It fails to recognize that the internet is a public place in which private individuals and companies interact. 3. It wrongly recognizes that some people are responsible for what other people say.
The only additional law that is required to addresses EVERY form of corruption on the internet is already set in precedent, criminalize lying.
Will you kill yourself so as to set an example for punishing lying? Your neo Nazi Holocaust denials, and propaganda would surely be a capital offense under your proposal.
Or just kill yourself anyway. Best thing for you, really. Your comments are going nowhere.
Watch out, parents and kiddies! Misek and his Jackboots are coming to get you and your fishing trips and surprise parties if you discuss them online!
And businesses: You'll have to deal with proprietary information via in-person meetings only! Encrypting it and sending it via the InnerToobz will have you targeted on suspicion of lying!
The safest course is having no proprietary information and just sharing it all, for "The Common Good Over The Individual Good!"
Right, Herr Misek?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Or like a drunk to a Trump article……
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
The simplest explanation is that Musk chose a journalist he thought would honestly report the information
In the context of the fact that the underlying story/information *couldn't* be accurately or credibly told by the MSM.
To borrow from Mickey Rat's example above, it's a bit like complaining that Deep Throat should've gone to the FBI (under Nixon) to blow the whistle rather than Woodward and Bernstein.
Tim's Magic Flute! Yay!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z72MvjF2jTY/T02xngIvlkI/AAAAAAAACOg/Ij4Gzbk9m50/s1600/0000212257.jpg
SQRLSY on the right with Tim and his flute.
Oh I see. Claim only one party is doing it while ignoring the other party doing it. Democrats, right up to the current White House, still insist that both 2000 and 2016 were “stolen” and that the democrats actually won. Then there is Abraham’s and her insistence that she has lost every election due to whatever form of rigging she proclaims today.
However, it is the democrats that openly argue for people who vote Republican to lose their jobs and rights and even explicitly argue they go to jail for not toeing the democrat party line.
So while both parties are proclaiming the other is stealing elections the Democrats are the ones pushing for punishment for voting the other way.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Find me a reliable citation where Hillary or Biden said ANY of these kinds of things, PLEASE!
Also please find for me, where Hillary or Biden lawyers blatantly LIED IN COURT under oath!
https://reason.com/2022/02/11/sidney-powell-disowns-her-kraken-saying-she-is-not-responsible-for-her-phony-story-of-a-stolen-election/ (Yet another Powell article)
https://reason.com/2021/03/23/sidney-powell-says-shes-not-guilty-of-defamation-because-no-reasonable-person-would-have-believed-her-outlandish-election-conspiracy-theory/
Sidney Powell Says She’s Not Guilty of Defamation Because ‘No Reasonable Person’ Would Have Believed Her ‘Outlandish’ Election Conspiracy Theory
Which particular lies are you wanting to hear and believe today, hyper-partisan Wonder Child?
“Under Der TrumpfenFuher, the “R” party will NOT rest until it is the ONLY party!”
Why is it?
If you need proof of what I say, read https://reason.com/2020/12/20/desperate-to-stop-biden-from-taking-office-trump-suggests-military-intervention-voting-machine-seizures-and-appointing-sidney-powell-to-investigate-her-own-fraud-claims/ Desperate To Stop Biden From Taking Office, Trump Suggests Military Intervention, Voting Machine Seizures, and Appointing Sidney Powell To Investigate Her Own Fraud Claims
Trump flunkies want to use martial law to hold new elections in swing states that didn’t vote Trump. Use the military to force a do-over where the people didn’t vote for Trump like they were supposed to. Give them a second bite at the apple.
And there will be endless do-overs till these wayward slobs do things the RIGHT way, and vote for Der TrumpfenFuhrer!
Those states who voted for Der TrumpfenFuhrer? Texas, for instance? And now that time has gone by, and millions of Texans have seen yet MORE of the “true stripes” of the Trumptatorshit… And they voted for Trump, but are SOOOO disgusted by now, they want to vote differently by now… Do THEY get a do-over?
Let’s selectively re-play this game till the Trumptatorshit lasts forever!
You obviously have strong feelings for me, no doubt inspired by your bigotry and inability to refute anything that I say.
Nobody is twisting your arm to read my comments Kol Nidre boy.
It’s nice to see the Pavlovian effect that witnessing the irrefutable truth has on your reptilian brain.
For the sake of your mental health you should recognize that how you choose to feel is your responsibility alone and subsequently has zero effect on anyone else.
Hahaha
Pretty sure he's not a lawyer. Here's a better link: https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/23/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-section-230-communications-decency-act/
(Chris should read the first section.)
Maybe they would survive in some form?
But smaller companies wouldn't have a chance.
The thought of being unable to lie is making you shit yourself in public.
Reality isn’t whatever you want it to be, it is what it is. If you don’t accept truth, reality you’re insane.
Knowing that you have never refuted anything that I have said, but still deny it must fill you with fear and doubt. I’ve showed you that you have put your faith in a lie and hatred is your response. You’re a bigot.
Does reality wear jackboots? It might seem that way to someone desperately trying to avoid it.
It sucks to be you. Fuck off Kol Nidre boy.
It’s good to know that the first amendment keeps you and those few others like you seething in defeat every day.
Hahahaha
Your medication regime is beyond recalibration.
What makes you believe that to be true?
Prove it. Hahaha
Thanks!