American Hunters Cry Fowl Over Canada Border Ban
Birds don't recognize borders.

Americans who hunt waterfowl in Canada were up in arms this month, caught off guard by a surprise U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) order that prohibited them from returning to the United States with their fresh kills. This week, though, facing strong criticism from hunters and outdoors advocates, the USDA reversed the ban. That was welcome news to hunters—especially those who'd traveled to Canada to hunt waterfowl when the season opened earlier this month.
The import ban was intended to help stem an enormous, ongoing outbreak of highly pathogenic bird flu in North America that's seen thousands of wild birds confirmed to be infected and millions of commercially raised chickens and turkeys culled after also becoming infected. To dent the outbreak, the USDA's Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) issued a mandate to waterfowl hunters in June. It banned them from bringing live birds and raw meat into the United States from specified "control zones" in Canada and required hunters to cook any meat they intended to bring back across the border.
"The importation ban only pertains to birds that fly through or are killed within the boundaries of specified control zones," Outdoor Life reported in July. "These are areas that have a high incidence of bird flu." The report also noted the mandate was confusing to hunters, who can't realistically "know if those birds [they've killed] flew through a control zone."
Earlier this month, Field & Stream reported that things got even more confusing when APHIS decided to ban hunters from bringing virtually any waterfowl they'd taken back into the United States. The ban's impact was immediate. Delta Waterfowl noted last week that the ban had "functionally shut down all import of birds from all Canadian provinces." The Meat Eater reported the ban "forc[ed] many American hunters to leave their meat north of the border."
Critics hit back at APHIS over not just the ban but the agency's opacity and seeming duplicity in adopting it. After all, the APHIS ban came just days after the agency had assured hunters it would not issue such a ban.
Ducks Unlimited, a leading waterfowl and wetland conservation group, blasted the timing of the APHIS announcement, issued late on a Friday that heralded the arrival of the Labor Day holiday weekend in the United States and the start of waterfowl hunting season in parts of Canada.
"This last-minute, after-hours, notice is a disturbing development," Ducks Unlimited said in a statement. "Waterfowl hunting seasons in a number of Canadian provinces opened on September 1, meaning American citizens currently hunting north of the border may be unaware the ducks and geese they are taking won't be allowed back in the U.S."
Outdoor Life also pointed out that other laws—including a Fish & Wildlife Service requirement that a bird's wings must be attached to any bird brought into the country—may conflict directly with the APHIS mandate.
Perhaps worst of all, though, is the fact the ban made little sense and left hunters, wildlife and outdoors advocates, and scientists alike "scratching their heads." That's large because, according to experts, around 4 billion waterfowl migrate voluntarily between Canada and the United States every fall.
Ergo, the birds which APHIS prohibited American hunters from bringing back to the United States "are the same ducks, geese and sandhill cranes, of course, that will soon be flying south from Canada to any number of destinations in the U.S.," Grand Forks Herald outdoors editor Brad Dokken wrote last week.
In short, bird flu neither knows nor cares how it transits a border. APHIS should know this.
Thankfully, logic appears to have prevailed. Without admitting the agency's ban made no sense or explaining why it was reversing course, APHIS announced this past Monday that it was lifting the ban, effective immediately, after "working with stakeholders and other federal agencies to provide options." The new APHIS requirements mean hunters who want to bring waterfowl they've killed back to the United States must clean the birds and place them in a sealed container in which they're chilled or frozen. Ducks Unlimited, Outdoor Life, and others hailed APHIS's course correction.
Billions of waterfowl and other birds migrate between the United States, Canada, and Mexico yearly—with no regard for regulations or borders. The problem of migratory birds spreading bird flu in the United States is about as likely to be impacted in any meaningful way by hunters carrying some of those same birds into the country—rather than merely letting them fly in—as it would be by an APHIS rule prohibiting sick birds from migrating into the United States.
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The import ban was intended to help stem an enormous, ongoing outbreak of highly pathogenic bird flu in North America
Yet the Southern Border is literally open for all to cross with nary a lice inspection.
FJB
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ITT, Lying Jeffy asserts that if I don’t respond to every post he wants me to I’m lying. I know it sounds crazy, and I didn’t believe that’s what he was doing at first, but he’s confirmed that’s his new standard for me.
Crazy motherfucker’s gonna have to start paying me to respond to every post.
Let get this out of the way.
Chemjeff is a pathologically dishonest piece-of-shit and an invariant liar. If he posts that the sky is blue it would be a good idea to double check.
He lies not because he's unaware of the truth, or been deceived or indoctrinated, but because 1. he's paid to, and 2. it's an aspect of what he is.
Arguing with him is useless because you can't convince him. He already knows the truth but rejects it because it is truth, and is antithetical to it.
The only thing to be done is to refute him. Anything else is a waste of time.
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Hi ML, when are you going to retract your statement about Senator Graham's abortion bill? You claimed that it protected a right to an abortion until 15 weeks, when it did no such thing. That was a bald-faced lie. When are you going to admit you were wrong?
"You claimed that it protected a right to an abortion until 15 weeks"
I said it was exactly like most of Europe, which it is; and legalizes abortion on the federal level, which it does.
You always do this, you always take a statement and twist it just enough to be able to misrepresent it for your own narrative.
What a colossal piece of garbage you are.
This is you:
https://reason.com/2022/09/15/marco-rubio-who-last-month-said-abortion-regulation-should-be-left-to-the-states-endorses-a-federal-ban/?comments=true#comment-9703108
That is a lie. Graham's bill would NOT legalize abortion nationally. It would ban abortion after 15 weeks AND would permit states to ban abortion even earlier than that if they chose. It would NOT be exactly like most of Europe where abortion really is protected nationwide up until a set time. You're lying, you will never admit you are lying, because as you say above, your mission here is to "refute" me. That means you have to keep digging to defend your lie because to do otherwise would be to validate my claims.
So now as you typically do you are going to try to change the subject while calling me names in an attempt to avoid admitting your lie.
So, let's go back in time:
https://reason.com/2022/09/03/food-trucks-from-colorado-to-alabama-are-still-struggling-with-red-tape-and-protectionism/?comments=true#comment-9684907
R Mac:
2. Personally, my driving factors are the NAP, and being honest (why I’m so vociferous in my criticism of dishonest and disingenuous people here).
This was your statement that you offered freely. It is also a lie. You are not "vociferous" in your criticism of "dishonest and disingenuous people here". You are very selective in your "vociferous-ness". You are ruthless in criticizing the people you don't like, over minor infractions. Such as the use of hyperbole or sarcasm. Such as the supposedly improper use of quotation marks. (Oh the "horror"!) But you have a gigantic blind spot for the "dishonest and disingenuous people here" who are your tribal allies. How many times does Jesse or ML have to post outright lies before you call them out on it? Evidently that number is approaching infinity.
There have been at least a half-dozen lies posted in this very discussion here by people on your tribe. Including a particularly vicious slander against me. And you have not said a damn thing about any of it. But, you took the time to get completely worked up about my use of slander against your ally Jesse! That was an absolutely unforgivable sin!
So, R Mac, you have to decide if you are going to live up to the standard that you profess to claim for yourself, or not.
Seek help Lying Jeffy.
Go fuck yourself, asshole
Best to just put him on mute and leave him there. The only people he impresses are his fellow teenage girls. That's it. Nobody with a half a brain believes their shit. Just ignore it.
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It is literally impossible to close the southern border to anyone who really wants to cross it, in the same way that it is literally impossible to close the northern border to any birds that feel like flying across it.
I am getting pretty sick of this idea that the fact that it is really hard to enforce a policy means that the policy does not exist. The fact that closed borders are hard to enforce doesn't mean the borders are open. That's like saying that murder is legal because it's hard to catch serial killers, or that theft is legal because it's hard to catch shoplifters.
Trump's border was much more closed than is Biden's border - try lying your way around that truth!!
an APHIS rule prohibiting sick birds from migrating into the United States.
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Four billion birds migrate from Canada to the US. About 30 million are killed by hunters. That's less than one percent. I guess the rest can wear masks, yes?
The the birds aren't fully masked and double boosted then they get what they deserver
I am pretty sure that is a racist attitude. Or speciest, or something-ist.
SCIENCE-IST!
Birds? Chicks? It’s clearly SEXIST!!!
Some comments from a MV Facebook chat.
https://twitter.com/DoctorTurtleboy/status/1570571488956395521
Yes, yes, eat each other.
My favorite exchange.
Person 1: they need shelter.
Person 2: can't we just give them some clothes instead.
I know, right?
Who gives a fuck about the migrants.
The important point here is to expose Team Blue hypocrisy.
I mean. That's the take on the Facebook group posts. Glad you are outraged by immigrants in blue enclaves. Thank God they shipped them away in under 48 hours right jeff? Can't have rich white liberals affected by this.
Of course you dont give about actual immigrants. Or you'd be outraged by liberal activist groups telling these migrants how to make false claims of asylum with promises of aid and work if they take dangerous journeys leading to the deaths of hundreds of years and high incidents of rape. You don't care about that. As long as they can be grouped in underpass in small border towns that don't have the infrastructure to take care of them. Fuck those small American border towns being economically destroyed by the tend of thousands of migrants coming under false pretenses pushed by the left.
Your only concern is team blue doesn't look like giant hypocrites.
Good work Jeff. You look as compassionate as Tony did last night.
By the way, did you see the MSNBC report with the reporter saying migrants were thanking DeSantis? Aware of the signed consent forms? No? You only care the leftist narrative used to rationalize shipping the illegal immigrants out of their communities. For 0.0005% of the problem created at the border.
Good work Jeff.
The true compassion of people like Jeff
Democrat Washington, D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser: "We're not a border town. We don't have an infrastructure to handle this type of and level of immigration to our city ... We're not Texas."
And shipping them off to the suburbs a la Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot, then declaring a disaster over them like Illinois Governor JB Pritzker (D-Commodius Maximus).
And amusingly, they've spilled a lot of ink over how Texas doesn't have the infrastructure either and they lambasted Texas over that more than a few times. They want to dictate how Texas handles it, then suddenly they're out of idea's when it's on their doorstep at a tiny fraction of what Texas deals with daily.
Could states like Texas handle things better? Maybe, but it would certainly be a greater expense too and guess who shoulder's most of that cost? Hint: It's not the FedGov and it's not D.C. either.
I've been told that since the federal government 'give Texas money to handle this' that it's ok to keep the all down there.
When you ask where this money is though - they don't know - 'law enforcement or something'
the ban "forc[ed] many American hunters to leave their meat north of the border.
Looks like Jeff just lost his meat, too.
Thanks, JessAZ
He only eats fried meat.
Hey Jesse, did you read the story about how those migrants were tricked and defrauded into signing those forms? About how the migrants didn't actually come from Florida at all?
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/republican-governor-florida-flies-migrants-marthas-vineyard-political-stunt-2022-09-15/
I read about the leftist narrative. Yes. Did you watch the CNN interviews with the actual migrants or the MSNBC reporter saying they thanked them.
I get you rely on false reports to push your narrative.
I also like you think migrants are too stupid to understand what they are signing.
Good work Jeff.
Let's take a look at your cite.
Martha's Vineyard identified himself as Luis, 27, and said he and nine relatives were promised a flight to Massachusetts, along with shelter, support for 90 days, help with work permits and English lessons
MV is in Massachusetts. So no lie there.
MV has declared itself a sanctuary city providing services. So they lied about that. You got me there.
Also do you have actual proof that this happened besides one migrant? Are you aware of what leftist groups are promising them and teaching them to claim asylum on promises of work visas?
Are the promises of these sanctuary cities promising free legal services and care lies?
Here is the MSNBC report.
https://twitter.com/RealMacReport/status/1570877407116263424
So on your counter you ignore false NGO claims encouraging migrants. You ignore migrants deaths and rapes foe the journey. You ignore the false promises of sanctuary cities. You ignore those cities shipping immigrants out in under 48 hours.
So your only outrage is blue enclaves being forced to help support 0.0005% of the problem.
Good work Jeff.
Yes Jesse we know, inconvenient facts = "leftist narrative".
Interviews with migrants who thank DeSantis for the plane trip are taken at face value.
Interviews with migrants who claim they were lied to are treated skeptically and more proof is demanded.
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/15/1123109768/migrants-sent-to-marthas-vineyard
Why is Florida paying to transport migrants from Texas to Massachusetts? Hmm?
Are you going to address the fact that these migrants were lied to? That their "consent" was obtained under false pretenses? You like to wave around their signed papers saying that it proves it was all consensual. Well, it looks like the entire thing was a fraud.
Oh. So don't trust the brown Telemundo reporters on MSNBC.
Odd you still haven't addressed MV and other blue sanctuary cities kicking them out in under 48 hours. Why Jeff? Goes against your narrative? Do the signed consent forms not exist? Or do you think migrants are too stupid to understand them? You keep reporting narratives without any actual interviews from the migrants? Why? You just accept the narrative at face value?
Good work Jeff.
YOU are the one who is questioning the interviews of migrants that say critical things of Team Red but accepting at face value the interviews of migrants that say positive things about Team Red.
Do the signed consent forms not exist?
Does consent retain the same meaning if it was obtained under false pretenses?
You keep reporting narratives without any actual interviews from the migrants?
That's you Jesse, not me.
Please cite where the forms are false pretenses. I will wait.
Again. I've given you the MSMBC interview of them thanking DeSantis. You ignored it. CNN also interviewed migrants getting on busses in Texas. They too said they were willing to go.
So far you've only given white liberal reporters accounts of what happened. Abbot and DeSantis have the forms. What they were actually told. Instead you posited a name telling them something else on a 2nd hand account.
What is more factual? A written form or a 2nd hand account referencing a random person?
I'll wait your answer jeff.
And while answering, again... w
Why is sending migrants to wealthy sanctuary cities immoral? You still haven't answered that question. Why was it moral for Biden to send them to red states instead?
Your entire argumentation is so infantile and contradictory as you rationalize gop bad, blue good.
It is laughable at this point.
So "Perla" lied to them and bribed them with food in exchange for having them sign a form. That is the fraud, Jesse.
What is more factual? A written form or a 2nd hand account referencing a random person?
I see. So you are going to go with "when liberals interview the migrants, the interviews are lies", but "when conservatives interview the migrants, the interviews are truthful". Is that it?
Why is sending migrants to wealthy sanctuary cities immoral?
Why is it moral AT ALL to be lying to migrants and tricking them to send them anywhere? Why is it moral to be using migrants as pawns in a political stunt? Why is it moral to be treating migrants as if they are cargo? Hmm?
Again. I've given you the MSMBC interview of them thanking DeSantis. You ignored it. CNN also interviewed migrants getting on busses in Texas. They too said they were willing to go.
And this is where you completely ignore the power imbalance between a state government and literally powerless penniless migrants.
“Do you want to go to Martha’s Vineyard?”
Illegal: “Where is that?”
“Near Boston, in Massachusetts.”
Illegal: ”OK”
Illegal 2 (in Spanish): “Where are we going?”
Illegal: “Boston”
How many illegals know Martha’s Vineyard? How many Americans west of NYC?
You assume facts not in evidence.
By the way jeff. If they wanted to go to Boston, why did Bidens administration send them to Florida?
Lol.
The migrants in question were never in Florida. Do you even understand this?
The state government of Florida paid to take migrants from San Antonio - which, last time I checked, is not in Florida - to Martha's Vineyard, which is not equipped to handle taking care of migrants.
And this is totally not a stunt, right?
The migrants sent from Florida to MV were never in Florida.
Got it.
If you are talking about abbot, watch the CNN interview of them actually interviewing the migrants retard.
The migrants sent from Florida to MV were never in Florida.
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/15/1123109768/migrants-sent-to-marthas-vineyard
"Why is Florida paying to transport migrants from Texas to Massachusetts? Hmm?"
Because DeSantis is too cheap to Uber them from Martha's Vineyard to Tucker Carlson's summer place in Maine.
By the way. Next time don't choose an article with the preferred leftist narrative in the fucking title.
Makes you look like the leftist retard you are.
But it is a political stunt. It's not a narrative. It's an undeniable fact.
The migrants weren't even in Florida. They were sent specifically to a place full of Team Red's tribal enemies. This was not some dispassionate rational calculation on how to help migrants. This was a stunt to make a point.
Sending migrants to self declared sanctuary cities is a stunt. Better to keep them on a tent under a Texas underpass. Got it.
Do you think it is easier to care for 100k migrants or 50 jeff? 2 million gave crossed so far. Most taken care of in red states. But 50 sent to a sanctuary city is a stunt.
Lol. Be more racist. Please.
Right. So the state government of Florida paying to send migrants who are not in Florida to a place that is not equipped to handle migrants, but who just so happen to be filled with smug opponents of Florida's governor, is totally not a stunt. You are not fooling anyone. Of course it was a stunt but you will never admit it because tribalism has so infected your brain.
Finally. We get to the base of Jeff's argument. Red states should bear the costs and only them. Florida is not a border state you fucking retard. Why would they have infrastructure to handle tens of thousands of migrants but cities like d.c. and Chicago can't? Do you understand how stupid your take is.
How can a border town of 50k residents take in tens of thousands of migrants a week?
You really are the dumbest of people.
THE MIGRANTS IN QUESTION WERE NEVER IN FLORIDA, YOU MORON
And let me just correct this, because I know one of you pedantic morons is going to point this out:
The plane transporting the migrants briefly touched down in Florida. But the migrants did not come FROM Florida. The migrants came from San Antonio.
You had an agent of the Florida state government trolling migrant shelters in San Antonio looking for migrants to board the plane by lying to them and bribing them with food.
And I am sure Troll Mac, Totally Committed To Honesty, will be along shortly to correct Jesse on his blatant lies.
Jesse didn't lie, Jeff. You did.
Going through your ramblings above, every time Jesse came up with a valid point you redirected or dissembled.
You really are a dishonest clown.
Jeff is such a clown lol.
Who is behind the stunt where the feds fly migrants all over the country without asking their permission? Hint: Drumpf is no longer President, unless you're one of those who thinks the election was rigged.
So, which flights are you referring to?
Are you referring to flights in which immigrant children requesting asylum are flown to family or sponsors in other parts of the country while their asylum claims are processed? Please tell me why you object to those flights. What should the government be doing instead to these children?
Argumentation from ignorance and false rationalization of why it isnt bad when Biden does it.
https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/biden-secretly-flying-underage-migrants-into-ny-in-dead-of-night/
lol now I start to get it.
The government is transporting unaccompanied minors requesting asylum, who have nowhere else to go, to willing sponsors and family members willing to take care of them while their asylum claims are being processed. They are doing this pursuant to longstanding policy, it was the same policy under Trump as it is now. They are doing it late at night so as not to disrupt ordinary commercial air traffic. And this entire effort is spun into a "clandestine" effort (because it's late at night) to "resettle" refugees (no shades of Great Replacement Theory here, right?) by partisan media that bases its entire business model on making its readers mad and outraged against Team Blue.
What should the government do with these children, Jesse? Send them back to the tender mercies of the coyotes who brought them here? Make them stay in a shelter in Texas even if there are people in New York willing to care for them?
Your article there is an example of pure demagoguery. Its entire point is to get you pissed off against those filthy migrants. Not surprised you fall for it.
And while you're at it, please tell us all why flying random migrants to Martha's Vineyard who have no necessary connection to the area due to family or sponsorship is totally the same thing as flying kids requesting asylum to their family or sponsors elsewhere in the country.
To think that you believe this is what is actually happening. Lol.
Wow.
You really do believe anything the administration tells you. Good boy.
Umm, that is what is happening. Even according to the story that YOU yourself cited.
Funny, if they didn't come from FL then how did they get on a plane from Florida?
Second question - how did they get into Florida in the first place?
The migrants in question did not come from Florida. The plane flew from San Antonio to Martha's Vineyard.
Of course you dont give about actual immigrants. Or you'd be outraged by liberal activist groups telling these migrants how to make false claims of asylum with promises of aid and work if they take dangerous journeys leading to the deaths of hundreds of years and high incidents of rape.
Who exactly is pro-coyote here? Anyone? This sounds like a complete strawman.
Most of us actual libertarians out here understand that coyotes only exist and profit because of the fucked up nature of US immigration law. They are the analogy of drug lords with the War on Drugs. Stop criminalizing drugs and the drug lords go away. Similarly stop criminalizing migration and the coyotes go away.
I believe migrants should be allowed to come here, after a quick background check and health check, to work and travel freely across the border. That way they won't need to bring their entire families here in order to stay together. That way they won't be a burden on local towns because they will be earning their way here via honest work.
What is your plan? Build a wall? Hire more guards? Make illegal immigration even more illegal? And after all that, the suffering immiserated poor are still suffering and immiserated. Then what? Do you give a shit? No. As long as they are not in YOUR town.
Yes the Martha's Vineyard progressives are a bunch of NIMBY hypocrites. You and your team are just as much of NIMBY assholes as they are. You are both cut from the same cloth - don't treat the migrants as people, only as abstract problems that must be "dealt with".
Huh. Jesse ignores this one. I wonder why.
It was addressed below? Sorry you can't be succinct in your attempts at rationalization on why sending migrants to sanctuary cities is bad.
No you didn't.
What is your plan? Build a wall? Hire more guards? Make illegal immigration even more illegal? And after all that, the suffering immiserated poor are still suffering and immiserated. Then what? Do you give a shit? No. As long as they are not in YOUR town.
How about it, Jesse? How are you going to make the War On Migration work this time? I mean, all the other times it has failed, but now finally it will work just as long as Your Top Men are put in charge, right?
How you cannot see the striking similarities between the failure of the War on Drugs, and the failure on the War on Migration, is baffling at this point. No I take that back, it is not baffling, it is deliberate ignorance.
Lol. My plan is not to let 2 million illegal immigrants a year you retarded fuck. The infrastructure for that doesn't exist in the country. Are you unaware of that?
And yes I advocated for work visas below you fucking illiterate retard. That's why I brought it up. God damn youre a clown.
My plan is not to let 2 million illegal immigrants a year
How? Build a bigger wall? Make illegal immigration even more illegal?
Where is your answer to this, Jesse?
You say you are in favor of work permits. You also say you don't want 2 million illegal immigrants a year. So what exactly do you want?
You are. You are fine with moving these people around the country and releasing them into unprepared communities when it's CBP doing it.
Your only concern is team blue doesn't look like giant hypocrites.
YOUR only concern is POINTING OUT that they are hypocrites, using human lives to make your point.
3 post reply. Made you mad exposing your hypocrisy did I?
You've expressed more outrage here than you have ever expressed for false promises and false pretense on asylum claims.
And yet your entire defense continues to be for only red states to bear the cost.
If this is truly your view you would be outraged by Chicago and MV kicking the migrants out. But that's not what you posted. Your post was outrage is migrants being sent to sanctuary cities. Self declared sanctuary cities.
Also left out in your rant is the fact that infrastructure doesn't exist to take in 2 million excess migrants. So your free migration includes expansion of welfare to others to pay for their migration.
In 2006 and 2007 the GOP put forth a compromise bill for migrant work visas. It was ultimately killed due to poison pill amendments added by Democrats, namely Obama. Weird you never mention that.
So your compassion only seems to extend to red states paying and bearing the cost for migrants. As soon as they cross into a blue city your expressed outrage stops.
Good work Jeff.
If this was truly your view you would be outraged at Chicago, MV, and other blue cities who express the similar view you posited here then retreat when confronted with the costs. But it was not. Your outrage was at the GOP. Showing your views to be false and used to virtue signal.
Good work Jeff.
Is this where I ask jeff why he didnt address this comment?
lol
Oh so you admit your assertion above was dumb.
Yes; he gave you 1:10, you gave him 1:16. He's a slacker alright.
Team Blue are absolutely acting like a bunch of NIMBY hypocrites here. I even said that:
Yes the Martha's Vineyard progressives are a bunch of NIMBY hypocrites.
Funny how you ignore that and launch directly in to some tribal attack.
In 2006 and 2007 the GOP put forth a compromise bill for migrant work visas. It was ultimately killed due to poison pill amendments added by Democrats, namely Obama.
Did you favor that compromise bill? Yes or no, Jesse?
My bet is that you never favored it in the first place and only bring up Obama's role because you hate him even more than you hate the GOP that proposed the compromise in the first place.
And now jeff realizes he has failed in this discussion and retreats finally to his "oh you got me, now ill have to pretend this was always my argument."
And now Jesse realizes he was wrong all along and so lies about me in order to avoid blame for his mistake.
Oh, and my concern is the actual costs put on border states and border towns. In the last 15 years I watched Arizona lose all of its trauma 1 care centers except 1 or 2 in Southern Arizona due to uncompensated costs of illegal migration. I watched schools get decimated with teaching ESL students with a cost of nearly 3 to 1 that taxpayers pay. Watching cities like Ajo lose all of their charity reserves being forced to take care of migrants while blue cities didnt pay a fucking dime.
If you dont understand the cost of tens of thousands of nonworming migrants over running small towns youre a bigger fucking idiot than I gave you credit for.
As long as you can avoid costs or turn a blind eye to it, you're fine. Truly a libertarian take. Put the burden on others then bitch like a baby when you or your leftist allies have to bare 0.0005% of the cost.
Truly a libertarian take. Ignore all costs. Birch at others bearing the cost.
Good work Jeff.
In the last 15 years I watched Arizona lose all of its trauma 1 care centers except 1 or 2 in Southern Arizona due to uncompensated costs of illegal migration.
Right. It couldn't have been due to the fucked up nature of health care regulations in this country. It had to be due to the filthy illegals.
I watched schools get decimated with teaching ESL students with a cost of nearly 3 to 1 that taxpayers pay.
Let's look at all the costs that schools have. Top-heavy administration, extravagant costs for high-profile sports teams like football and basketball, bloated salaries due to public-sector unions. Nope, you ignore all of those, and focus on ESL costs. Gee I wonder why. Again it's the filthy illegals who are the source of all the problems.
You are proving my point better than I could. The migrants are not real people to you. They are scapegoats for your problems, they are the trash that must be "dealt with".
Of course migration imposes some costs. So what is your preferred solution? Is it "let's try to find a way to privatize those costs while not violating people's rights", like what a libertarian might argue? No, your proposed solution is to spend even more taxpayer money building a stupid wall to use government force to keep them out. Because their rights don't matter to you. They are not people, they are problems.
And this is the most telling part:
Watching cities like Ajo lose all of their charity reserves being forced to take care of migrants while blue cities didnt pay a fucking dime.
So the REAL tragedy here, for you, is that Team Blue isn't bearing the costs that you think they ought to bear. Again making Team Blue suffer is more important than dealing humanely with migrants. That is your position. It is all tribal warfare 24/7 with you. Who gives a fuck about the people involved. The important thing is to destroy your hated enemies.
I stopped after your first response because it proves you are arguing literally from ignorance. I explicitly called out the costs of uncompensated care for migrants as the cause, which it was. And instead you make other excuses.
You truly are an ignorant piece of shit.
You are scapegoating migrants, full stop.
Facts are racist. This is well documented in both AZ Central and Tucson Weekly, both left leaning papers. But ignore things that are inconvenient.
But I thought Team Blue was a bunch of racists, Jesse? If the left-leaning (and therefore racist) AZ Central newspaper scapegoated migrants for the reason why hospitals are closing in Arizona, why are you going along with their racist analysis?
So you will agree with racist liberals scapegoating migrants when it suits you, but that does not make you a racist.
Nobody is surprised Lying Jeffy would jump into the hypocrisy with both feet.
He doesn't even understand how he is rationalizing attacking the gop as racist and not the blue sanctuary cities for denying their advertised status. Lol.
Oh, there's plenty of racism to go around, don't worry Jesse.
I will happily acknowledge that the Team Blue crowd in places like Martha's Vineyard are a bunch of NIMBY racists who don't view migrants as real people, only as abstract objects through which they can virtue signal cost free. I will also acknowledge that the Team Red crowd which supports these type of migrant transportation stunts are also a bunch of NIMBY racists who view migrants not as people, but as problems to be dealt with, and shipped off like cargo to faraway places.
But you can't do that, can you?
Except you didn't happily acknowledge it until your arguments and attacks on the gop failed. Lol.
This is you in retreat as usual.
https://reason.com/2022/09/16/if-ron-desantis-hates-communism-he-shouldnt-weaponize-victims-of-communism/?comments=true#comment-9705902
And many of the vocal Team Blue opponents of this stunt are themselves a bunch of flaming hypocrites who speak of tolerance and sanctuary only when they don't pay any cost, and of course also act like a bunch of bigoted trash when they compare these migrants to literal trash.
That was written 8 hours ago, dummy. Admit that you were wrong all along.
I will happily acknowledge that the Team Blue crowd
in places like Martha's Vineyardare a bunch of NIMBY racists who don't view migrants as real people, only as abstract objects through which they can virtue signal cost free.By the way, did you see the MSNBC report with the reporter saying migrants were thanking DeSantis? Aware of the signed consent forms?
I don't watch MSNBC, you watch way more of it than I do.
Funny how you recognize that "consent" between two parties in which there is a vast power imbalance - that is, between the government and, say, social media companies, when the government "requests" that a person be censored - is deeply problematic and possibly illegal. But you have no such concern for the vast power imbalance between homeless penniless powerless migrants "consenting" to traveling to Martha's Vineyard based on the empty promises of a vastly more powerful state government.
"When the government makes a 'request' it is really a threat and should be treated as such." -- Jesse when talking about social media companies
"When the government makes a 'request', those that agree to the request are making fully voluntary choices and how dare you suggest otherwise." -- Jesse when talking about migrants being treated like cargo
You can just say "no, I prefer only repeating the leftist narrative." Would have saved you far more time.
Why bother seeing actual real information when you can read a leftist reporters opinion article instead.
Good work Jeff.
No I get it. Government 'requests' to social media companies should be treated as worrisome implied coercion because those requests involve censoring speech that Team Red likes. But government 'requests' to migrants that they 'voluntarily' go to other places are to be taken at face value with no critical thought about the inherent power imbalance. Because THAT type of 'request' is something that Team Red favors. It is complete tribalism with you.
And here jeff defends fascism. Govenrment asking private companies to act on things they are disallowed to do is not an issue for jeff.
Mussolini would be proud.
And here Jesse tries to avoid the issue.
You absolutely recognize the problematic nature of 'consent' associated with vast power imbalance between the two parties trying to come to an agreement, when it works against your tribe. But when it works FOR your tribe, you pretend that power imbalance doesn't matter and signed consent forms, even if obtained fraudulently, are totally fine and without issue.
Power imbalance between parties reaching agreement only matters when it's your team being disadvantaged.
I didn't avoid the issue. I called you out explicitly on the issue. You are defending fascism.
lol here we go again. You are completely avoiding the issue of why you ignore power imbalances between two parties reaching 'consent' when that power imbalance favors your tribe, but fret about it when it doesn't favor your tribe. Instead you want to substitute it for an argument about fascism.
I understand why, because it exposes your complete hypocrisy. It is just another example of 'outcome-based ideology'. Present whatever neutral-sounding argument that is required in order to advance the cause of your tribe.
If your tribe suffers under a power imbalance, then make the claim that power imbalances between two parties delegitimizes the concept of 'consent'.
But if your tribe is helped by a power imbalance, then make the claim that individuals are free people to make free choices despite the power imbalance.
No consistent position, just whatever argument best advances the cause of your tribe.
So which is it, Jesse? Is power imbalance between two parties trying to reach agreement a problem, or isn't it?
Yes. Because Team Blue doesn't give a fuck.about the immigrants or the people who have to deal with them.
Now they have to deal with them - and they're freaking out.
Yes we know. The important point here is to make Team Blue look bad. Who gives a fuck about the migrants.
At what point do you say "hey, maybe the migrants don't deserve to be treated this way"?
It’s a vineyard, isn’t it? Couldn’t they have hired Those People to pick grapes for a few days?
2 months into his presidency Biden issued an EO for federal agency involvement in elections. Since then the agencies have refused to state what their involvement is, including refusing FOIA requests.
The Foundation for Government Accountability filed a Freedom of Information Act request for the Department of Justice’s strategic plan, and the Biden administration illegally ignored it. The FGA took the DOJ to federal court, and a judge ordered the department to release its plan. On the last possible day, the DOJ released a few emails — but no plan. Instead, the department claimed that all materials related to Biden’s secret voting plan are exempt from disclosure under FOIA’s internal government deliberations exemption. Government transparency advocates have rightly called this exemption the “withhold it because you want to" exemption.
.
From what little the Biden administration did release, we do know that top officials in the DOJ held a meeting on July 12, 2021, with a who’s who of far-left activists whose organizations, though nominally nonpartisan, are essentially unofficial appendages of the Democratic Party — for example, the American Civil Liberties Union, Black Lives Matter, and the Southern Poverty Law Center.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/release-bidens-secret-voter-plan
Fuck Canada and its ducks.
I don't blame you for not reading the article (because who bothers these days), but it's the USDA banning your dead duck entry.
To be sure, it’s a Daffy policy! (Some might dare call it DETHPICABLE!)
What next? No Hassenpfeffer from British Columbia? The idea Bugs me!
Shiskabugs
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8b5vfs
There’s no need for fowl language!
How about talking about the woman with her own aviary? She had the biggest parakeets I ever saw! 😉
Okay, okay! I'll duck out the back...
Hey now! I might like some Peking Duck via Montreal.
Reason Rundown
Fifth Circuit Rejects First Amendment Challenge to Texas Social Media Common Carrier Law
Full opinion here.
Judge Andrew Oldham's opinion, which is a majority on most points:
"A Texas statute named House Bill 20 generally prohibits large social media platforms from censoring speech based on the viewpoint of its speaker. The platforms urge us to hold that the statute is facially unconstitutional and hence cannot be applied to anyone at any time and under any circumstances.
In urging such sweeping relief, the platforms offer a rather odd inversion of the First Amendment. That Amendment, of course, protects every person's right to "the freedom of speech." But the platforms argue that buried somewhere in the person's enumerated right to free speech lies a corporation's unenumerated right to muzzle speech."
I don't really get what he's saying. Nowhere does the freedom of speech imply that a publication must publish this or that opinion and it seems this judge is stating that outlets must publish anything that anyone submits to them. It implies forum moderation would be unconstitutional, which is more than a bit absurd.
The original west district Judge stopped the law based on 1a claims for the companies. The fifth circuit in a long ruling basically says there is no 1a claims for the companies as it is the speech of users. Under 230 doctrine this speech is not the companies speech so the 1a claims for the social media companies is invalid. It goes into great detail. But that is the primary take away.
If the companies want 230 protections they can't claim the content of users is company speech. If it isn't the companies speech they don't have a 1a claim.
Dancheko, one of the primary sources of Steele with believed ties to Russian intelligence, was a paid FBI informant throughout most of Trumps presidency. Remember the FBI and DoJ often use claims of revealing confidential human informants to refuse FOIA requests and maintain documents under confidential TSI to avoid oversight.
Igor Danchenko, a U.S.-based Russian lawyer charged with five counts of making false statements to the bureau, was cashing a check from the FBI as a paid informant from March 2017 to October 2020, special counsel Durham claimed.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/justice/fbi-mislead-danchenko-after-paid-confidential-informant
Reason Rundown
China is now the model for the global ruling class.
UK Pressing Forward With Online Safety Bill
Reason Rundown
Which minorities you ask?
U.S. monkeypox cases drop, but minorities at greater risk
Monkey fuckers?
Reason Rundown
Biden accused of pressuring FBI to fabricate ‘extremist’ and ‘White supremacist’ cases
"Current and former FBI agents told The Washington Times that the perceived White supremacist threat is overblown by the administration. They said top bureau officials are pressuring FBI agents to create domestic terrorist cases and tag people as White supremacists to meet internal metrics."
Oh look. Another gossipy story that relies on anonymous unnamed sources repeating rumors.
Is this like where you repeated the right-wing lie that Senator Graham's abortion bill was about protecting abortion before 15 weeks, as opposed to what it really did, permitting states to ban abortion at any time?
Or like in the migrant story from yesterday, when none of you were even curious enough to look up where the migrants came from (not Florida) or how they were tricked and defrauded into getting on the plane in the first place? Because those relevant details weren't in the right-wing news stories that you read.
You're a gullible fool who falls for these lies.
Lol. Wow.
Lying Jeffy has gone full spaz. It’s beautiful.
Bidens failures have broken him. His entire leftist world view is crashing around him. Soon he will return to the no true Scotsman fallacy to defend their failed policies.
Oh look. Mr. Totally Committed To Honesty comes out in defense of gossipy stories relying on anonymous rumors and innuendo.
Can you tell us about trumps nuclear documents again?
You mean, the gossipy stories based on anonymous rumors that you rejected because they were critical of Team Red? And yet you accept at face value the gossipy stories based on anonymous rumors that are critical of Team Blue? You mean those stories?
What makes it "gossipy", you fucking piece of garbage?
Those are some serious accusations, but look at you try to handwave it away as "gossip".
Does anyone still doubt that this clown is a paid Democratic Party shill?
I've never doubted it.
Not paid. Paid Donkeys would have better ‘highly placed’ sources
The whole article is one giant rumor. It displays the exact same low journalistic standards that you decry in the NY Times when the rumors are against the people you don't like. It is garbage, but it is garbage that helps your tribe so you defend it and pretend it isn't garbage.
Calling out you going full spaz isn’t defending anything Lying Jeffy. Keep trying though, you’ll get me one of these times. Of course every time you have to lie to try to call me a liar is particularly funny.
So where is your criticism of citing gossipy stories based on anonymously-sourced rumors? Hmm? I thought you were totally committed to honesty. And yet when given the chance to actually call out dishonest behavior, you attack me instead. Because you are NOT committed to honesty. You are committed to attacking the people you don't like and defending the people you do like. You are a tribalist just like most of the other right-wing morons around here.
I’m required to respond to every post with anonymous sources or I’m dishonest? That’s a pretty ridiculous standard.
You are the one who took it upon himself to uphold a higher standard of a commitment to honesty. That was your choice. I am expecting you to be true to your own commitment.
I don’t recall making a commitment to responding to every post you think I should, Lying Jeffy. This obsession of yours is embarrassing.
In this case, ML approvingly cited a gossipy article that was entirely founded on rumors and innuendo cited by anonymous sources. It is dishonest journalism. You know that, I know that. And yet you say nothing, while not wasting an opportunity to call me names. Huh.
Unlike the WaPo's anonymous single sourcing these allegations have come from multiple agents.
Is it hard evidence? No.
But;
1. It warrants investigation and not bullshit tribalist attempts by a Democratic Party shill to handwave it away as gossip.
2. It's more than most of the stories you've pushed here have. I've copied your post. Keep in mind that the next time you post something anonymously single sourced I'll be reminding you about this.
LOL citing an article that repeats the same claims from the same Washington Times article means nothing.
And you think that just because some gossip claims Biden is doing something, that justifies an investigation? Then fine, let's investigate to see if Trump really did pee on hookers. I mean, why not? There is just as much evidence in favor of Trump peeing on hookers as there is in favor of Biden pressuring the FBI to exaggerate the threat from right-wing terrorism. Meaning, virtually nil. So if you think anonymously sourced rumors are enough to start investigating people, then I breathlessly await your demand that Trump be investigated for every single time some anonymous source leveled some accusation against him. OH WAIT, you don't want that? Gee what a surprise.
"your demand that Trump be investigated for every single time some anonymous source leveled some accusation against him"
He was.
You can't help but self-own, Jeffy.
Look at the Russia hoax and the resulting Mueller Investigation, look at two impeachments on evidence that explicitly exonerated him, look at the NY Prosecutor witchhunt, look at the J6 kangaroo court, ad nauseam.
All got their start with anonymous tipsters telling lies.
He was not, and those times for which he was investigated, you bitched and moaned about it the whole time, claiming it was so unfair.
You favor bullshit investigations when it helps your tribe, and you oppose honest investigations against your tribe by labeling them bullshit. Why are you even here? Don't you belong on some Qanon site?
Reason Rundown
Chemjeff smiles
Substitute Teacher Arrested For Paying Middle School Students $5 To Jump Their Classmate.
"“Aadrina Salean Smith, a 24-year-old substitute P.E. teacher, was arrested Monday after allegedly encouraging five children to beat up another student as she watched nearby."
Brave and stunning teacher. Stop attacking the most honorable of professions.
ML, Jesse, most of the Reason commentariat smiles:
https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/death-toll-migrant-shipwreck-off-tunisia-rises-11-2022-09-11/
TUNIS, Sept 11 (Reuters) - The death toll from a migrant shipwreck off Tunisia last week has risen to 11, most of them Tunisians, as they tried to cross the Mediterranean to Italy, TAP state news agency said on Sunday.
The rest are disappointed: "Why isn't the body count higher?"
Lesson learned. Brown people should stay where they are.
Literally what you, jeff, and Tony are telling brown people to do, stay in red states.
Ironic.
I bet Mike and Jeff are seriously relieved that those nasty brown migrants weren't headed for Chicago or Martha's Vinyard.
You had to go to tunisia to try to get a win?
How come you never advocate for other countries to improve? Just send them all to welfare states right?
It’s incomprehensible flailing at this point.
It made me chuckle, "Tunisia".
D minus for effort... seriously.
What are the odds Jeff thinks that Tunisia is in the Caribbean?
*Lying Jeffy furiously googles Tunisia as cookie spittle soaks his computer*
Why do you think anyone would smile about a boat sinking and people dying? What a sick fuck.
Just like he applauds mostly white rich liberal enclaves turning away small numbers of brown migrants. The racists are truly part of the left.
What if it was a boat with Chem Jeff, sarc, sqrls, Kar, Biden, kamala, and Pelosi?
Forgot to add spb
Eh, still wouldn’t smile. Maybe if just SPB because of all the children it would save.
Why don't you ask your pals whom you continually defend.
Defend what jeff. Can you provide a citation?
Why would I ask them? Unless you have some evidence of anyone smiling over people dying from a sinking boat.
Do you have any evidence of anyone smiling over people dying from a sunken boat? Or are you just lying? Again.
So lying.
He always is.
Stupid desperate people died due to desperation.
In other news, this is why Italy was turning them back.
Reason Rundown
Hope this radical new idea catches on.
MIT moves forward with ‘freedom of expression’ statement
President Reif (pictured) wrote in his September 1 message that “ideas like free expression and academic freedom may seem clear enough in theory” but “experience on our campus and across the country has shown that people of goodwill can have substantial disagreement about how to apply them in practice.”
Really not a mystery to people of goodwill but okay I guess.
5th circuit upholds Texas law pushing censorship of online content solely for political reasons.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/fifth-circuit-deals-huge-legal-blow-to-social-media-censorship-upholds-texas-law-banning-it
Reason Rundown
It wasn't a riot, it was a conspiracy to deny someone their civil rights
State troopers rescue Tomi Lahren after organized riot breaks out at UNM-Albuquerque.
Cops should have shot them all for trespassing. - jeff.
Jesse, Jan. 6: Banging on doors, disrupting official events, and property destruction are all "legitimate political speech".
Jesse, Summer 2020: Banging on doors, disrupting official events, and property destruction constitutes a violent riot that should be condemned.
A broken window = burning buildings
Jeffy
Uh oh. Receipts.
chemjeff radical individualist
February.9.2021 at 8:56 am
Flag Comment Mute User
What is there to talk about?
.
From a libertarian perspective, Ashli Babbett was trespassing, and the officers were totally justified to shoot trespassers. Again from a libertarian perspective, the officers would have been justified in shooting every single trespasser. That would not have been wise or prudent, of course.
.
They were all trespassers trying to be where they weren't supposed to be.
It's racists to use his own words against him
Also transphobic.
And fatphobic. Because he admitted he’s fat.
Cite of Jesse saying property destruction is legitimate political speech?
Hahaha, just kidding. I know you’re lying. Again. It’s what you do, Lying Jeffy.
He can't help it. Upcoming analogy about bears speaking in trunks in 3... 2...
Oh, NOW here comes Troll Mac demanding cites. You know, because he is such a stalwart defender of Total Honesty.
When is the last time you asked Jesse or ML for a cite about anything?
Why is it that your defense of "Honesty" actually turns into a defense of the Team Red tribalists around here?
So no cites.
Still waiting on the cite dishonest jeffrey. The answer isn't at the bottom of your ice cream bowl, so please provide it prior to eating that gallon of ice cream.
And Jeff. I put my cite above dummy.
“When is the last time you asked Jesse or ML for a cite about anything?”
Yesterday. And he responded by…giving me the cite I asked for.
Oops, that really blew up in your face Lying Jeffy. That’s what happens when you go full spaz.
Cite?
https://reason.com/2022/09/16/desantis-and-abbott-are-wrong-to-treat-migrants-as-a-punishment/?comments=true#comment-9704447
Suck it Lying Jeffy.
Well that exploded in chemleft's face.
So how about it Jeffy? I think you owe R Mac and Jesse an apology.
Won of the funnier owns here in awhile, IMO. Lying Jeffy will never bring himself to acknowledge it happened though.
Then a few months from now he’ll claim it never happened if I bring it up.
I don’t call him Lying Jeffy for nothing.
Now, back to your cite of Jesse saying property destruction is legitimate political speech?
Hey Troll Mac, Totally Committed To Honesty, where is your criticism of this dishonest statement?
https://reason.com/2022/09/17/american-hunters-cry-fowl-over-canada-border-ban/?comments=true#comment-9705956
Yet the Southern Border is literally open for all to cross with nary a lice inspection.
Can you cite where all illegal immigrants are checked for lice?
I mean, here is a post showing illegal immigrants at the border spreading lice.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/illegal-immigrant-kids-exposed-federal-agents-to-lice-scabies-tuberculosis-and-chicken-pox-report-says
Surely that wouldn't happen if they were checked before being taken in. Weird.
Is the Southern Border "literally open for all to cross"? Yes or no?
Can you cite where all illegal immigrants are checked for lice?
And this is more of your dishonesty.
The statement "not everyone is checked for lice" is not equivalent to the statement "no one is checked for lice".
I would expect someone who is Totally Committed To Honesty to note that key detail and point out the dishonesty. But instead, we have Troll Mac. And you.
2 million illegal immigrants crossing over says it is open.
Jeff, are you KJP? Be honest. It is the only explanation.
Again you tried changing a subject on a claim you called dishonest.
Or is your "open" only if a 100% of crossers get across without arrest? If a window is unlocked and slightly ajar is it open? Or does it require the window to be fully up with no screen in it?
You really are terrible at all argumentation. You argue like a child.
The statement "not everyone is checked for lice" is not equivalent to the statement "no one is checked for lice".
LOL!!!!! yet you'll change your claims on the definition of an "open border." Requiring 100% of people to cross without arrest.
God damn you are a fucking clown jeff.
2 million illegal immigrants crossing over says it is open.
Saying that the border is "literally open for all to cross" is a hyperbolic statement. Since the standard that R Mac uses against me is that hyperbole is equivalent to a lie, I am waiting for R Mac to apply that same standard to others. Of course he won't, because his whole schtick of being "totally committed to honesty" is itself a lie. But he won't admit that.
Or is your "open" only if a 100% of crossers get across without arrest? If a window is unlocked and slightly ajar is it open? Or does it require the window to be fully up with no screen in it?
Well, you tell me Jesse. Do you favor ending 100% of all immigration, both legal and illegal? Yes or no? If the answer is "no", then by your standard, you would be in favor of letting *some* individuals cross the border, meaning that the border is "open". Congratulations - you now support "open borders"!
Admit it Lying Jeffy, you thought you’d caught me in a lie when I said I asked Jesse for a cite just yesterday, but instead of admitting I was telling the truth after I proved it, you ignored it and went back to spazzing out because I’ve broken you.
Where it started: "is your "open" only if a 100% of crossers get across without arrest? If a window is unlocked and slightly ajar is it open? Or does it require the window to be fully up with no screen in it?"
Where Jeff took it: "Well, you tell me Jesse. Do you favor ending 100% of all immigration, both legal and illegal? Yes or no?"
But he called Jesse dishonest.
Jeffrey, may I call you fat jeffrey?, I have never called for 0 immigration. Weird transition to a comment nobody has ever made here.
You really do get pathetic when your argumentation starts getting dissected for being sophomoric.
Nor have I, but he pretended that's what I was claiming.
However, my brother and sister are recent American immigrants, so why would I?
I have never called for 0 immigration.
Right, so by your own standard, you are now in favor of "open borders". See how your stupid binary logic works?
Hey Troll Mac, Totally Committed To Honesty, where is your criticism of this entire dishonest post?
https://reason.com/2022/09/17/american-hunters-cry-fowl-over-canada-border-ban/?comments=true#comment-9706153
What is dishonest in it? Your claims of dishonesty doesn't make it so. Can you cite the dishonest part?
You twisted what Jesse said into what you wanted, yet again. Nothing dishonest on Jesse's part, nothing honest on yours. Par for the course.
Hey Troll Mac, Totally Committed To Honesty, where is your criticism of this dishonest post?
https://reason.com/2022/09/17/american-hunters-cry-fowl-over-canada-border-ban/?comments=true#comment-9706245
And here jeff defends fascism.
You are defending fascism. You're defending the execution of non governmental powers coerced by the government on a private company.
What do you think fascism is?
That statement was a part of your dishonest tactic to try to change the subject. Which you have never addressed, because it is inconvenient for you.
Why does power imbalance between two parties trying to reach an agreement only matter when the power imbalance hurts Team Red, such as with the government "asking" social media companies to censor content that favors right-wing narratives? But when the power imbalance helps Team Red, such as a state government "asking" powerless penniless migrants whether they "voluntarily" consent to going to Martha's Vineyard, then all discussion of power imbalances goes out the window and the signed consent form is all that matters.
Why is that, Jesse? Why do you want to change the subject?
No it wasn't Jeff. You tried criticizing and handwaiving away government coercion of private business to utilize powers they do not have. That is literally fascism Jeff.
I again ask, what do you think fascism actually is?
This is another tactic that you commonly use. You try to turn a difficult question posed to you into a fake stalemate.
Me: "So Jesse, why do you ignore power imbalances between the state government and penniless migrants, while you fret about power imbalances between social media companies and the government?"
You: "So, you are defending what social media companies are doing? That's fascism! Why do you defend fascism? Huh?"
Me: "I'm not going to let you get away with changing the subject. Why won't you answer my question?"
You: "No, you answer my question!"
Me: "You answer!"
You: "No, you answer!"
So when your effort to try to change the subject does not work, and to try to put me in the position of having to answer your difficult questions based on a fallacy, you try to turn it into a stalemate where nobody's questions are answered. This still benefits you of course because you still avoid answering the difficult question originally posed. It's a fake stalemate because your question was based on a fallacy in the first place. That's what is going on here.
But the most likely reason to have to engage in these types of tactics in the first place is because you are reticent to answer honestly the originally posed question. Why play these rhetorical games if just answering the question would be to your greater benefit?
By the use of your tactics, I can infer that you don't really care about the power imbalance between penniless migrants and state governments. That if a state government "requests" migrants to "voluntarily" agree to board a bus or a plane to DC or Martha's Vineyard or Chicago, that we ought to treat the migrant's consent to that request as completely legitimate and freely chosen, and not based on an implicit threat of punishment for failure to agree to the "request". So you don't really acknowledge that state governments are borderline exploiting these migrants by utilizing the power imbalance to their benefit - taking advantage of the fact that these migrants are very unlikely to say no even if they don't really want to go, because the implied threat is that if they say no, they will be deported.
You don't really want to acknowledge or see this, even though you acknowledge the *principle* that power imbalance is an issue when two parties reach "voluntary" agreement on an issue as evidenced by how you regard social media companies and their relationship to the government.
In other words, you know that there is exploitation going on, but you refuse to acknowledge it, and you play these rhetorical games in order to avoid it.
"Me: "So Jesse, why do you ignore power imbalances between the state government and penniless migrants, while you fret about power imbalances between social media companies and the government?"
You: "So, you are defending what social media companies are doing? That's fascism! Why do you defend fascism? Huh?"
Me: "I'm not going to let you get away with changing the subject. Why won't you answer my question?"
You: "No, you answer my question!"
Me: "You answer!"
You: "No, you answer!"
None of that happened. I just read the link. Who the hell do you think that your tricking?
lol at ML the attack poodle coming to Jesse's defense like the good little lapdog that he is
you are a sad sad person
Hey Troll Mac, Totally Committed to Honesty, where is your criticism of this dishonest post?
https://reason.com/2022/09/17/american-hunters-cry-fowl-over-canada-border-ban/?comments=true#comment-9706034
This post implies that I am in favor of teachers telling students to beat up other students. This is a lie. I expect you to try to correct the record, right?
I like how Jeff accuse you of never asking for cites, you provide the evidence, then goes on a tantrum of other asks.
It is amazing watching the child like argumentation of Jeff.
He’s fucking lost it. I think this is worse than when we broke sarc.
Jeff broke a month or two back when he was attacking the school board for choosing to not indoctrinate or groom kids.
Dude really is a pedophile defender at minimum.
So, Jesse not only lies about me, but outrageously slanders me. Not a problem, right Troll Mac?
R Mac's not a troll and it's no slander for anyone to call you a groomer based on the beyond creepy stuff you've vehemently stood for here.
Time to fuck off to where people are easier to trick, Jeff. Maybe ask your boss for a transfer to Huffpo.
yip yip yip goes ML the attack poodle, lapdog for the right-wing morons on this site
Hey Troll Mac, why don't you finally admit that you are NOT "Totally Committed To Honesty", instead you are totally committed to trying to embarrass the people you don't like and run cover for the people you do like?
Jesse and ML and the rest of the right-wing morons around here can spout whatever nonsense they want and it goes completely unchallenged by you. And when I make a hyperbolic statement about what Jesse supports, you jump down my throat about it.
You are an asshole and a hypocrite. No one should take you seriously on anything that you do.
Jeff, why did you try changing topics, and badly at that, when shown that he asks for cites from others as you accused him of never doing?
Isn't that being dishonest? LOL.
God damn you're a fucking idiot.
Just so we’re clear Lying Jeffy: You’re asserting that if I don’t respond to every post you think I should, I’m being dishonest?
I think you deliberately overlook blatant examples of dishonesty that are in your face, while seeking out opportunities to criticize me or other people you don't like over very minor infractions. Such as my use of hyperbole, or my alleged improper use of quotation marks. But Jesse or others can literally get away with a half-dozen logical fallacies in one post and you say nothing.
And this type of behavior is not surprising at all coming from partisan tribalists like Jesse. He makes no claims about being devoted to honesty. He is quite plain with his writings that he is a shill for Team Red and his purpose here is to advance a Team Red narrative. You on the other hand have taken it upon yourself to uphold a higher standard of "commitment to honesty". So far, you are sorely lacking in this commitment.
Note you couldn’t answer a simple question.
Lying Jeffy, above you claimed Jesse thinks property destruction is legitimate political speech.
Is that true, or is that a lie?
It was a hyperbolic statement. Congratulations you caught me using hyperbole against Jesse. It was your mission to find me committing a minor infraction and you found it. While at the same time ignoring the much larger infractions going on all around you. You are such a devoted disciple of honesty.
So yes, I’ve broken you like sarc. Only instead of saying you were being sarcastic when you’re caught lying, you’re going to claim hyperbole when caught lying.
So yes, I’ve broken you like sarc. Only instead of saying you were being sarcastic when you’re caught lying, you’re going to claim hyperbole when caught lying.
Or what's more likely is that you girls are too dishonest and stupid to recognize hyperbole and sarcasm, so you call it dishonesty. Which is especially funny since all you girls do is lie about people.
LOL. I literally did.
Here is the exchange.
https://reason.com/2022/09/16/desantis-and-abbott-are-wrong-to-treat-migrants-as-a-punishment/?comments=true#comment-9704447
Also Jeff, where is your citation for the original claim you made? The one you were originally asked for? Seems pretty dishonest to keep redirecting away from the first ask.
LOL. You are so fucking terrible at argumentation.
He's going to ghost you on that one.
Hmm... fat ghosts may finally be seen by Ghosthunters. I should give them a call.
Reason Rundown
NBC compares illegals to trash, accuses DeSantis of littering
Totally not racist.
Racists give themselves away; because the racist things they say, don't sound racist to themselves.
Rare documentary footage seen of Jesus preaching the gospel. Well, a certain kind of gospel, anyway.
https://twitter.com/mmpadellan/status/1570822428422705153
Funny.
And, yes, I know some of those same jokes could be made about a Libertarian Jesus, and government largess isn’t the same as private charity.
But it was still funny.
Further evidence of left can't meme.
Oh wow jeff, you're a fan of #Resistance Twitter celeb BrooklynDad Defiant too? I should have guessed! 🙂
Jeff is a living blue check mark Twitter account.
Ahh. The favorite tactic of the left. Hate Christianity but then tell Christians how they should act.
Good work Jeff.
Pretty humorous for a man who never existed. I just woke up. Is that Austin Bragg playing Jesus? 🙂
It's one of Jeff's lefty twitter gurus. But remember, don't call him a Democrat.
Think of all the poor gunless Venezuelans foraging for refugee Canadian Geese on the golf courses of Martha's Vineyard.
Someone needs to take out those bastards.
A government bureaucracy doing something stupid and pointless just to remind the peasantry of their place? I am shocked.
Today I learned there is a news source called "The Meat Eater".
There's another one called guns and gardens
Garden & Gun is a Southern Hipster Yuppie Scum magazine for the Doctor's office. The real deal for Self-Reliance, Survivalism, and Libertarian editorial stance is Backwoods Home Magazine.
http://www.backwoodshome.com
I subscribed years ago and enjoyed it and may buy their Whole Shebang of back issues.
Yikes... Thanks for keeping us posted on this.
Did anyone see the story that Reason of course decide to ignore that Denmark has recommended that nobody under 50 take the bulkshit mRNA COVID vaccine anymore?
The bullshit mRNA COVID vaccine that does basically nothing of any real value might be the biggest absolute disaster and colossal waste of money in scientific history.
Too local. Nothing to see.
And, Denmark is pretty much the radical right of the EU anyway. Probably fell for some misinformation from the Joe Rogan show.
Look at pelosies stock portfolio, the mrna vaccines did exactly what the pols wanted
might be the biggest absolute disaster and colossal waste of money in scientific history.
Global Warming sniffs at your pretensions.
Huh. So much for freedom of choice.
https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1570877632463667200
They are more interested in fighting culture wars than they are in sticking up for liberty.
Freedom of employment is bad? You think worker protections protecting bad workers is libertarian?
Lol. Let me laugh harder at you.
Every law that protects them should be repealed immediately.
How dare employers have freedom to fire bad workers!!!!! Jeff is outraged!!!!!!
Oh, look at dishonest Jesse intentionally ignoring the most unlibertarian part of that tweet:
Prosecuted for what precisely, Jesse? Hmm? If a school's leaders chooses to teach "queer theory" (however that is defined) in a school, what law is being broken? How does that violate the NAP?
Also note that this tweet makes no distinction between public and private schools. So they evidently think that even private schools that teach "queer theory" or "critical race theory" should be punished with state force. Why is that appropriate, Jesse? Hmm?
Oh, you're worried about prosecutions now? You haven't seem to care about the J6 protestors or the calls from Democrats to prosecute Abbot/DeSantis. Your selective prosecution calls are truly out of a third world dictatorship.
I don't know which crimes they are asking to prosecute, asking the LP. If teachers committed crimes, they should be prosecuted? No? Or do you believe they should be allowed to continue committing crimes?
What is your exact issue here? Are they calling for prosecution of non crimes?
Also your last assertion is an assertion entirely made of your own. LOL. Talk about dishonest argumentation.
You're failing hard today Jeff. But it is a Saturday, it is usually when you act the biggest clown.
lol so dishonest. Right, Mr. R Mac "Totally Committed To Honesty"?
Let's count the dishonest tactics:
- Deflecting from the issue of the Libertarian National Party advocating for using state force to prosecute teachers for teaching a curriculum they don't like, by bringing up an unrelated red herring about January 6th.
- Dishonestly implying that because I question whether teaching a curriculum that the LP doesn't like is a crime at all, it means that I am in favor of teachers not being prosecuted for any crime even legitimate ones.
Clearly dishonest tactics, right Troll Mac? You're going to step in any moment now to call out Jesse for his dishonesty, right?
What is your exact issue here? Are they calling for prosecution of non crimes?
That's the way it looks to me. What is, or ought to be, *illegal* about teaching "queer theory" in class?
If a school wants to fire a teacher for it, that is the school's prerogative. But why should the teacher be put in a cage over it? Hmm?
"Prosecuted for what precisely, Jesse? Hmm?"
Hate speech? Pedophilia?
Note they don't call for prosecution of non crimes, Jeff added that implication himself in order to try to own the LP. Then asks others to prove his bald assertion is a lie.
One of the avenues of his dishonesty.
What is the crime here?
Wait, so hate speech is a valid crime now? Being advocated for being prosecuted by supposed libertarians at the LP now? Really?
"Critical race theory" is pedophilia? Are you serious?
Jeffy: "So they evidently think that even private schools that teach "queer theory" or "critical race theory"
Also Jeffy: "Critical race theory" is pedophilia? Are you serious?"
You try to be so tricky...
Now queer theory doesn't have to be pedophiliac, if students are introduced to it in university, but in k-12 it invariably is.
Teaching religion.
Wow. Glad I disassociated myself from the LP before this right wing takeover happened.
LOL!
You were only part of the LP for cosplay.
You truly think it is a libertarian position to disallow companies to fire bad employees?
God you and Jeff are such clowns.
"Glad I disassociated myself from the LP before this right wing takeover happened."
White Mike disassociated himself from the LP on December 11, 1971, so that's technically true.
Now ask him what party he has associated with ever since. Hint: It rhymes with "Bemocratic Barty".
So you’re for teachers experimenting on children with queer theory?
And yet once again, you ignore Jesse's dishonest bad take and jump immediately to criticizing me. Because you are not about "honesty", you never were. You are in favor of criticizing the people you don't like and rushing to defend the people you do like.
What take did I have on schools today? Stop lying about what I've said Jeff. You're being completely dishonest. I haven't discussed schools this morning. Once again you lie about everything.
What take did I have on schools today?
So dishonest. This was your dishonest bad take.
https://reason.com/2022/09/17/american-hunters-cry-fowl-over-canada-border-ban/?comments=true#comment-9706323
You intentionally ignore the part of the LP tweet which calls for the state to *prosecute* school teachers who teach "critical race theory", even private schools. Because you are deflecting for your team and ignoring the part that makes your team look bad. And someone who is Totally Committed To Honesty would point that out, but not Troll Mac.
I was responding directly to your criticism of the tweet dumbfuck. Man, you’ve really lost your damn mind in a fit of rage, Lying Jeffy.
Oh I know. While ignoring all of the dishonest crap that your allies spew. That is my point. In your "total commitment to honesty", you overlook the dishonest crap from your allies and immediately rush to criticize me. So honest.
It’s your fucking thread Lying Jeffy. I don’t have to read and fact check every other response to it before responding directly to it myself.
You’re really embarrassing yourself with this nonsense.
No, you don't HAVE to do anything. You've simply declared yourself to be "vociferous" in your opposition to people who are dishonest. Why that "vociferous-ness" only seems to point towards the people you don't like, and never against the dishonest people of your own tribe, is a total and complete mystery.
I don’t like you because you lie all the time. This is not a mystery.
You don't like me because I oppose your tribe. Because I say mean things about the people you like.
No, it’s because you lie. I don’t call you Mean Jeffy, I call you Lying Jeffy.
Nobody has the freedom to teach what they want as government employees.
Should they be *prosecuted*?
I won't rule it out.
Lying Jeffy thinks teachers have special rights to discuss sexual topics with children against parent’s wishes without facing the consequences anyone else would face for it.
Or maybe he thinks anyone should be able to talk to children about sex against their parent’s wishes?
So what exactly is the "crime" here, from a libertarian perspective?
Pedophilia... and do you still think racist "Hate Speech" should be illegal?
Libertarians in favor of hate speech laws! LOL I love it.
Since when is teaching "queer theory" or "critical race theory" an example of pedophilia?
You are reaching.
Me: "do you still think racist "Hate Speech" should be illegal?"
Jeffy: "Libertarians in favor of hate speech laws! LOL I love it"
See how he twists everything just a little to make it work rhetorically for him, folks?
Jeff made a huge deal about how "hate" speech wasn't free speech a while ago. Now I ask him if he still stands by that and he pretends I introduced this out of nowhere.
"Since when is teaching "queer theory"... an example of pedophilia?"
By it's very nature teaching it to minors is pedophiliac. Showing Pornhub videos to adults isn't pedophiliac, but showing them to 12-year-olds is. It's the same with queer theory.
Leave the kids alone Jeff. They can learn about giving blowjobs and having ass-sex at 18.
Jeff made a huge deal about how "hate" speech wasn't free speech a while ago.
That's a lie. I never claimed that hate speech wasn't free speech.
And "queer theory" is not equivalent to showing pornography. Do you even know what "queer theory" is? The stuff that is taught to grade school kids isn't even "queer theory" anyway, it is simple tolerance of LGBTQ folks. You are such an authoritarian social conservative, wanting to criminalize ideas that you don't like. You and the Mises crowd belong together. There is nothing libertarian about any of it. It is straight up authoritarian nonsense.
Solicitation of minors for sex is criminal everywhere.
Memes lead to insurrection writes the atkantic.
https://www.theatlantic.com/books/archive/2022/09/january-6-insurrection-meme-wars/671397/
Reason covered this years ago, it's not news
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N4W4OQJKHtE
So not Trump?
That will disappoint the Donkeys.
Seems like an easy problem to solve. Just have the birds wear masks and ffs, get your vaccinations.
BE A HERO, WEAR A MASK <—A decal I saw 15 minutes ago on an AT&T truck here in the South Bay Area
I still see people wearing masks. I saw 2 black ladies walking down the street wearing masks today. I can kinda understand the scared logic of wearing one at the grocery store or Costco. But walking down the street, on the sidewalk with nobody around.
Spiked Podcast:
The madness of Mermaids
Tom Slater, Fraser Myers and Ella Whelan discuss the trans-kids charity Mermaids and its bonkers claims about sex and gender.
Mermaids (trans 'rights' group) has taken the LGB Alliance to court, attempting to strip it of its charitable organization status. Mermaids has scored a number of "own goals" during this court case and surrounding publicity.
A very good listen. Only about 7 minutes. Both terrifying and hilarious. But fascinating in how homophobic the trans lobby is.
"the trans-kids charity Mermaids and its bonkers claims about sex and gender."
*summons a chemjeff*
Always good for a siren call
Spiked is great. Unherd and Quillette as well.
How it started: Immigration Issue Stirs Heartfelt Response on Martha's Vineyard
How it started: Martha's Vineyard residents cheer as illegal immigrants are led to a bus to a military facility
Do we really want this 70s re-run? If MV shows Amity to every illegal who shows up, they’ll soon be in the Jaws of a dilemma! Alas, Farewell Ye Spanish Ladies!
Show me the way to go home. I'm tired and I wanna go to bed!
Congratulations. Your team lied to migrants, exploited them, manipulated them, and turned them into unwilling political props, in order to "pwn the libs". That must make you very proud.
I mean, does anyone *really* care what happens to the migrants?
None of what you said actually happened, Lying Jeffy.
Martha's Vinyard made a huge fucking deal about being a sanctuary for illegals. Turns out you guys fucking lied.
It's all right for you evil clowns to wave your virtue flags at small Texas towns inundated with fifty thousand illegals, but get asked to live up to your explicit promises with 0.1% of that and you're shipping them off to a military base and screaming bloody murder.
This is why everyone thinks you guys are evil, Jeff.
Yes, your team did lie to migrants and exploit them in order to "pwn the libs".
Do you even care what happens to the migrants? Answer: no. They are trash that is best disposed of in someone else's backyard.
Duh. It's called "virtue signaling", not "virtue delivery".
Huh. Is that so.
https://apnews.com/article/florida-immigration-ron-desantis-charlie-baker-massachusetts-7e97720aceae5d70f137ece06851f3fc?utm_source=Connatix&utm_medium=HomePage
What are they afraid of?
Could be any one of a half a trillion things really.
But why engage with rage filled monsters that hate you?
Could be any one of a half a trillion things really.
Could be any one of a half a trillion completely legal and sensible things really. But if you're chemjeff, the help pleading the 5th means they're guilty of something, you've just got to charge and prosecute innocent people until you get to the bottom of it.
I don’t know, why don’t you tell us Lying Jeffy.
NY officials have been shown to be Donkey partisans. Avoid those bigots.
In 1997, while I was living there, I went on a bird hunting trip in Argentina. We shot 5 perdiz (partridges). The only people who actually hit a bird were the American (me (4)) and my Argentinian friend who had been living in the States for 10+ years (1).
The native Argentinians couldn't hit crap. It was like the Falkland's war all over again.
Hey, icks-nay on the alklands-Fay! Too soon, man!
Which Falkland Islands? 🙂
Comedian Steve Rizzo--The Falkland Islands (John Boy and Billy)
https://youtu.be/rXnmPHAhTxA
lol
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-slams-biden-declining-gas-prices-election-raise-again-later-2022-9
Oh my!
Reducing oil prices is a good goal. But selling off the strategic reserve is moronic. It has little impact, but puts us at greater risk in confrontations with many terrible countries.
American Hunters Cry Fowl Over Canada Border Ban
Remember, when they say they want to ban guns, they don't mean the guns you hunt with. Those are obviously protected by the 2A.
DUCK SEASON!
WABBIT SEASON!
DUCK SEASON!
DUCK SEASON!
[blam]
I used to go to Canada every year to fish. I don't anymore and never will. It is all ply to extort more money from American tourist. You have to buy a license to buy a fishing license. If you have ever had a DUI they will extort more money out of you to cross the border. Every year they have a new list of what you cannot bring, which they make you dump out and buy the same thing in Canada. They tax you for their government heathcare on every item you buy, but if you get sick, you won't get treated until they have your credit card. They used to give you a form to get that tax money back but no more and it can be considerable with resorts rates.
No more extortion for me. I will be staying home.