These Emails Show How the Biden Administration's Crusade Against 'Misinformation' Imposes Censorship by Proxy
Social media companies are eager to appease the government by suppressing disfavored speech.

On July 16, 2021, the day that Joe Biden accused Facebook of "killing people" by failing to suppress misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines, a senior executive at the social media platform's parent company emailed Surgeon General Vivek Murthy in an effort to assuage the president's anger. "Reaching out after what has transpired over the past few days following the publication of the misinformation advisory, and culminating today in the President's remarks about us," the Meta executive wrote. "I know our teams met today to better understand the scope of what the White House expects from us on misinformation going forward."
Murthy had just published an advisory in which he urged a "whole-of-society" effort to combat the "urgent threat to public health" posed by "health misinformation," possibly including "appropriate legal and regulatory measures." Biden's homicide charge came the next day, and Meta was keen to address the president's concerns by cracking down on speech that offended him.
The email, which was recently disclosed during discovery in a federal lawsuit that Louisiana Attorney General Jeff Landry and Missouri Attorney General Eric Schmitt filed in May, vividly illustrates how the Biden administration engages in censorship by proxy, pressuring social media platforms to implement speech restrictions that would be flagrantly unconstitutional if the government tried to impose them directly. Landry and Schmitt, both Republicans, argue that such pressure violates the First Amendment.
"Having threatened and cajoled social-media platforms for years to censor viewpoints and speakers disfavored by the Left," the lawsuit says, "senior government officials in the Executive Branch have moved into a phase of open collusion with social-media companies to suppress disfavored speakers, viewpoints, and content on social media platforms under the Orwellian guise of halting so-called 'disinformation,' 'misinformation,' and 'malinformation.'…As a direct result of these actions, there has been an unprecedented rise in censorship and suppression of free speech—including core political speech—on social-media platforms."
Landry and Schmitt reiterate that point in a "joint statement of discovery disputes" they filed yesterday in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Louisiana. "Under the First Amendment, the federal Government should have no role in policing private speech or picking winners and losers in the marketplace of ideas," they say. "But that is what federal officials are doing, on a massive scale—a scale whose full scope and impact [are] yet to be determined."
So far, Schmitt reports, documents produced by the government in response to a court order have identified 45 federal officials who "communicate with social media platforms about 'misinformation' and censorship." Schmitt and Landry think many other officials are involved in "a vast 'Censorship Enterprise' across a multitude of federal agencies," and they are seeking additional documents to confirm that suspicion.
In response to inquiries, Landry and Schmitt say, "Facebook and Instagram identified 32 federal officials, including eight current and former White House officials," who have contacted them regarding "misinformation and censorship of social-media content." YouTube "identified 11 federal officials, including five current and former White House officials," while Twitter "identified nine federal officials, including at least one White House official."
Judging from the examples that Schmitt cites, the tenor of these communications has been cordial and collaborative. The social media companies are at pains to show that they share the government's goals, which is precisely the problem. Given the broad powers that the federal government has to make life difficult for these businesses through public criticism, litigation, regulation, and legislation, the Biden administration's "asks" for stricter moderation are tantamount to commands. The administration expects obsequious compliance, and that is what it gets.
Shortly after sending the July 16 email to Murthy, according to Landry and Schmitt's joint statement, the same Meta executive sent the surgeon general a text message. "It's not great to be accused of killing people," he said, adding that he was "keen to find a way to deescalate and work together collaboratively."
And so he did. "Thanks again for taking the time to meet earlier today," the Meta executive says in a July 23, 2021, email to an official at the Department of Health and Human Services.* "I wanted to make sure you saw the steps we took just this past week to adjust policies on what we are removing with respect to misinformation, as well as steps taken to further address the 'disinfo dozen.'" He brags that Meta has removed objectionable pages, groups, and Instagram accounts; taken steps to make several pages and profiles "more difficult to find on our platform"; and "expanded the group of false claims that we remove to keep up with recent trends."
Twitter also was eager to fall in line. "I'm looking forward to setting up regular chats," says an April 8, 2021, message from Twitter to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). "My team has asked for examples of problematic content so we can examine trends. All examples of misinformation are helpful, but in particular, if you have any examples of fraud—such as fraudulent covid cures, fraudulent vaccine cards, etc, that would be very helpful."
Twitter responded swiftly to the government's censorship suggestions. "Thanks so much for this," a Twitter official says in an April 16, 2021, email to the CDC. "We actioned (by labeling or removing) the Tweets in violation of our Rules." The message, which is headed "Request for problem accounts," is signed with "warmest" regards.
The government also got fast service from Instagram. In a July 20, 2021, email, Clarke Humphrey, digital director for the White House COVID-19 Response Team, requests the deletion of an Instagram parody of Anthony Fauci, Biden's top medical adviser. "Any way we can get this pulled down?" Humphrey asks. "It is not actually one of ours." Less than a minute later, he gets his answer: "Yep, on it!"
Twitter's desperation to please the Biden administration likewise went beyond deleting specific messages. Landry and Schmitt note "internal Twitter communications" indicating that senior White House officials "specifically pressured Twitter to deplatform" anti-vaccine writer Alex Berenson, "which Twitter did." In an April 16, 2021, email about a "Twitter VaccineMisinfo Briefing" on Zoom, Deputy Assistant to the President Rob Flaherty tells colleagues that Twitter will inform "White House staff" about "the tangible effects seen from recent policy changes, what interventions are currently being implemented in addition to previous policy changes, and ways the White House (and our COVID experts) can partner in product work."
Like Twitter, Facebook was thirsty for government guidance. In a July 28, 2021, email to the CDC headed "FB Misinformation Claims_Help Debunking," a Facebook official says, "I have been talking about in addition to our weekly meetings, doing a monthly disinfo/debunking meeting, with maybe claim topics communicated a few days prior so that you can bring in the matching experts and chat casually for 30 minutes or so. Is that something you'd be interested in?" The CDC's response is enthusiastic: "Yes, we would love to do that."
The communications uncovered so far mainly involved anti-vaccine messages, many of which are verifiably false. But Americans have a First Amendment right to express their opinions, no matter how misguided or ill-informed. That does not mean social media platforms are obligated to host those opinions. To the contrary, they have a First Amendment right to exercise editorial discretion. But that's not what is really happening when their decisions are shaped by implicit or explicit threats from the government. Notwithstanding all the friendly words, Facebook et al. have strong incentives to cooperate with a government that otherwise might punish them in various ways.
Ostensibly, the Biden administration is merely asking social media companies to enforce their own rules. But those rules are open to interpretation, and the government is encouraging the companies to read them more broadly than they otherwise might.
Maybe Twitter would have banished Alex Berenson even if White House officials had not intervened, but maybe not. Multiply that question across the myriad moderation decisions that social media platforms make every day, and you have a situation where it is increasingly difficult to tell whether they are exercising independent judgment or taking orders from the government.
"Although a 'private entity is not ordinarily constrained by the First Amendment,'" Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas noted in a 2021 concurrence, "it is if the government coerces or induces it to take action the government itself would not be permitted to do, such as censor expression of a lawful viewpoint….The government cannot accomplish through threats of adverse government action what the Constitution prohibits it from doing directly." That is the gist of the argument that Landry and Schmitt are making in their lawsuit.
The danger posed by the Biden administration's creepy crusade against "misinformation" is magnified by its broad definition of that concept, which encompasses speech that the government deems "misleading," even when it is arguably or demonstrably true. "Claims can be highly misleading and harmful even if the science on an issue isn't yet settled," Murthy says, and "what counts as misinformation can change over time with new evidence and scientific consensus."
In other words, the "scientific consensus," however Murthy defines it, can be wrong, as illustrated by the federal government's ever-evolving advice about the utility of face masks in preventing COVID-19 transmission. The CDC initially dismissed the value of general masking, then embraced it as "the most important, powerful public health tool we have." More recently, it has conceded that commonly used cloth masks do little, if anything, to stop coronavirus transmission.
"Twitter's 'COVID-19 misleading information policy,' as of December 2021, noted that Twitter will censor (label or remove) speech claiming that 'face masks…do not work to reduce transmission or to protect against COVID-19,'" Schmitt says. "Other platforms had similar policies. Both Senator Rand Paul and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis were censored by Youtube for questioning the efficacy of masks." Twitter even removed a mask-skeptical tweet by Scott Atlas, a member of the Trump administration's coronavirus task force. But "now," Schmitt says, "a growing body of science shows that masks, especially cloth masks, are ineffective at stopping the spread of COVID-19, and can impose negative impacts on children."
Landry and Schmitt's lawsuit also notes Twitter's blocking of the New York Post's story about Hunter Biden's laptop, which was deemed "disinformation" prior to the 2020 presidential election but turned out to be accurate. Social media companies have made similarly questionable decisions regarding discussion of the COVID-19 "lab leak" theory, which remains contested but has not been disproven.
Even acting on their own, social media platforms are bound to make bad calls. But when the government demands that they all hew to an officially recognized "consensus," the threat to free inquiry and open debate is far graver.
*CORRECTION: The name of the HHS official is blacked out in the email obtained by Landry and Schmitt, so it's not clear whether the recipient was Murthy.
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Some might say this is a threat to democracy.
Democrats are a threat to democracy.
As are Republicans. At least Trump Republicans.
explain how...cause the case for Ds being a menace to democracy is obvious and proven every day.
Explanation #1...
Orange-dick-suckers will NEVER stop sucking orange dick!
Der TrumpfenFuhrer ***IS*** responsible for agitating for democracy to be replaced by mobocracy!
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It really should immediately make us think of Krystallnacht. Hitler and the NAZIs set up for this by constantly blaming Jews for all things bad. Jew-haters will be Jew-haters, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Hitler was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
Remember that Trump started complaining about fraudulent voting in 2016 until, surprise surprise, he actually won!
Only through the perversity of our electoral college. SOME voters are more important (and equal) than OTHER voters!
(And note that Hillary-Bob did NOT endlessly deny the election results, or call for a revolt!)
Don’t fear the revolt!
(insurrection)!
All our times have come
Here, but now they’re gone
Seasons don’t fear the revolt
Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain
(We can be like they are)
Come on, baby
(Don’t fear the revolt)
Baby, take my hand
(Don’t fear the revolt)
We’ll be able to fly
Baby, I’m your man
La, la la, la la
La, la la, la la
Valentine is done
Here but now they’re gone
Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbs
Are together in eternity
(Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbitt)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel
Horst and Babbs both wanted to grab political power through violence, and got back, what they were dishing out. Karma is a bitch! Live by the sword, die by the sword!
Sqrlsybot appears every time things get awkward for our lefties so they need to derail.
White Mike was obviously caught with his pants down by Ersatz's question so Sqrlsy rushes in to derail everything with a series of shitposts.
You really should get some psychiatric help. Spending all day posting long rambling incoherent unhinged blather on a message board is a sure sign that you are mentally ill.
Explanation #2...
Trumpanzees blazed the path for Biden and Dems to go gun-grabbing! Using the EXACT same language as Trump (and Trumpanzees) use against Section 230!
https://reason.com/2020/12/18/the-bipartisan-push-to-gut-section-230-will-suppress-online-communication/#comment-8646584
From the article:
“Section 230, which is a liability shielding gift from the U.S. to ‘Big Tech’ (the only companies in America that have it—corporate welfare!), is a serious threat to our National Security & Election Integrity,” the president recently tweeted.
There’s your “logic” from Der TrumpfenFuhrer, and MANY conservaTurd commenters on these pages.
By the EXACT SAME logic, ANY laws shielding gun and ammo manufacturers and-or sellers (Remington for example) need to be held accountable for the shootings of crazy users of their products! Remington, exercise better editorial control of your bullets!
Hey conservaTurd assholes-commenters! Ye moochers off of a “liability shielding gift from the U.S. to ‘Big Guns and Ammo Tech'”…
You ready to pay $90,000 per gun and $15 per ammo-round, or pay out the ass for insurance, for your guns? No? Then you are hypocrites ass usual!
Explanation #3...
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump's Big Lie and Hitler's: Is this how America's slide into totalitarianism begins?
Butt then again... Ersatz has an ersatz brain, I bet, who will NOT consider the data at hand! Right, right-wing wrong-nut?
Democrats were most unhappy with Trump because he interfered with their grand social plan, founded on socialism, racism, and crony deals for their preferred donors, like tech billionaires and unions. The fact that Trump is also a narcissistic, vindictive asshole only made it harder on their feelings.
Remember that when Team Blue says "threat to democracy" they mean "threat to the Democratic agenda".
Not to mention that he is a total jackass who likes to posture and preen and doesn't give a damn about anything but bhis own self importance.
So?
He still got more libertarian things done than any president since Coolidge, and didn't start any wars.
Clinton, Double-U and Obama were all smart, fun, witty, personable guys who killed hundreds of thousands and fucked the United States up for probably centuries.
Give me Trump's slimey used-car-salesman persona and excellent achievements over all that, please.
But enough about Obama.
Insightful political analysis.
Curious, are they still paying $.50, or is it higher? Should we start calling you “buckers”
Joe Biden just declared war on a hundred million Americans today. It’s tie, for the democrats to go.
Unless everyone would prefer to wait until they’re rounded up.
Often times when White Mike is challenged on his bullshit, SQRLSY shows up to shit post, and White Mike never responds. In fact that happens a lot whenever White Mike is asked to justify his stance. Coincidence?
I never associated White Mike with Sqrlsy before, but you're right. There's a pattern.
In fact now that you mention it there was this post a while back:
Mike Laursen
September.18.2021 at 11:38 am
SQRLSY, can you cover for me today? In a typical day, I usually:
– post a comment or two pointing out logical flaws, contradictions and partisanship in Ken’s essays, which he regards as examples of flawless logical thinking
– post a comment or two pointing out that Ashli Babbitt was not a saint and the January 6th MAGA rioters were violent
– post one “Fuck Tulpa!” comment
– post a comment or two that actually seriously discuss a topic. Everyone once in a while I’m lucky and someone responds in serious conversation, but most of the time I just get met with a bunch of grayed-out insults from JesseAz and the other Trump Mean Girls.
Sqrlsy then proceeded to troll the fuck out of the thread.
Maybe you're right, Uilleam.
I remember that. Liarson is a huge piece of shit.
No response from Dee or the shiteater. True or not, a worthwhile avenue to pursue.
You have ZERO reasons to believe that I post under multiple names here, other than, you are fearful that (OMG!) there might be MORE THAN ONE person out there, who is capable of writing eloquently enough to persuade other intelligent and flexible-minded (open-minded) people that individual freedom is a REALLY good idea! So you engage in wish fulfillment fantasy, telling yourself that they (we) are all one and the same, so that you and your fellow authoritarians can out-number them (us) more easily. Good luck with that, mind-reader who failed!
You believe crap that is totally false, w/o evidence to back yourself up! Just like Rob Misek and the other fantasy-addicted authoritarians around here!
remember trump not nationalizing industries was fascism in white Mike's eyes
I like when Republicans are criticized for something Democrats also do and you make sure to point that out.
Haha, just kidding, we all know you only feel obligated to do this in defense of Democrats.
White mike is creaming his jeans in anticipation of Biden's 'Enemies of America Speech' tonight. Probably has his brown shirt on alrweady.
The Fuhrer makes his heart sing.
That big meanie Trump was enslaving everyone by reducing his own power by eliminating federal regulations. And the democrats plus non Trump republicans stopped him from cutting the budgets of his own cabinet.
Diabolical!
Where’s the dumbest sonofabitch commenting at Reason? Ah….there he is.
The media are continually redefining words, giving them new meanings more appropriate to the times we live in. Thus, democracy is now defined as rule by Democrats. It is clear that, with this new definition, that Republicans, Libertarians, even Green Party members are a threat to democracy.
See, Biden got it right again.
I'm curious how you think social media should be dealt with, specifically if you think it should be controlled by the government. Considering that everyone has bias and speech should be protected under the first amendment even if that speech is biased.
I'd believe that you domestic Conservatives are sincere in the whining about censorship, if you domestic Conservatives also advocated that your Religious Right Conservative competitors in ISIL/Daesh also be allowed to peddle their BS on college campuses/on social media without censorship - And if you Conservatives had, before he joined Reagan in Hell, demanded that Bernie, the Conservative Media of investing, Madoff be set free because he only gave people his "opinion" that would get their money back if they voted with their wallets to invest it with him.
Also, if Conservatives are allowed to spew their never ending lies in order to defraud voters into voting for Conservatives vile evil murderous pro-pollution ideology - I should be able to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater in order to get better seats or call in a bomb threat to the doctor's office if I'm running late for an appointment in order to hide the fact that I'm running late.
Lots of words.
No thought.
Must be a prog.
Anyone feel like refuting this guy, or should I take the honor?
Come on - his Thought Police Admiral's hat isn't that bad !
According to Reason only Republicans/conservatives can be a threat to democracy. Hillary Clinton, the DNC and the FBI using fake information to impeach the sitting president is not a threat to democracy. MSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox all spreading the same lies about a President is not a threat do democracy. The DOJ and FBI hiding the truth about a laptop filled with the corruption of a sitting presidents son is not a threat do democracy. Not arresting or prosecuting rioters attacking and burning federal buildings on the west coast was not a threat to democracy. Going onto nursing homes and homes for the mentally handicapped and voting for those incompetents is not a threat to democracy (proven in Wisconsin and Texas). Trump questioning an election is a threat to democracy, but Hillary Clinton of Stacey Abrams questioning an election is not.
In the end, you start to figure out, Reason is a threat to democracy with their partisanship and lies. .
I admit I'm liking the direction Reason is slowly lurching towards, even if it took them several years to get here.
With this article, and Matt Welch calling for the repeal of the Communications Decency act, I think we're finally going in the right direction.
Shorter, the wheels of mainline libertarianism turn slowly, but they do turn.
But is this like NYT Kruggman getting economics right where it is purely for partisan advantage and will be memory holed the instant it's not politically valuable even if it's still correct.
Or the Koch Foundation overseer has gone on vacation.
Two datapoints don’t make a trend. Especially when several other data points are still trucking in the other direction.
Works for climate science.
And the Fed.
I gotta think something happened to the cocktail party invites.
Hopefully Welch got the wu flu (my bad nih funded wu flu) and died, like he wished on others
Hard for me to give praise when Reason has not just had their head in the sand for 6 years, they've actively apologized for it repeatedly, like good little progressives. Even when POTUS Biden blatantly admitted he was sending FB content to moderate/censor, Reason still ran cover.
I'm going to need much more than 2 articles. A public apology by the entire staff admitting to their errors and a re-commitment to support Libertarian principles, instead of being progressive apologists, would be a good first step.
You are far too kid. Reason doesn't deserve your charity.
Far too kind.
Spoken like a true Lurch.
When will Thing get back to LA from Philadelphia?
One might say that the "deep state" actually does exist and it seems to have changed the course of the 2020 election, particularly with the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story. In fact the laptop should've led the article instead of being a footnote at the end. But, having the laptop story be the main part of this might be admitting that OrangeManBad wasn't so bad.
I really don't know why anyone believes the deep state doesn't exist, or what possible argument you'd proffer to suggest it doesn't.
The only question is, what role does it play and is it ideological.
Of course the deep state exists. It's just the permanent/unelected bureaucracy and IC and military that doesn't want their thing shaken up too much.
Amen. Watch "Yes, Minister" for a good description of government bureaucracy.
Wikipedia claims it's a discredited conspiracy theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state_in_the_United_States
Interestingly the more general page still acknowledges it as real, even in the section on the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state#United_States
How many conspiracies do people need to confirm before the claim “conspiracy theory” isn’t derogatory?
The only question is, what role does it play and is it ideological.
I don't even think the question of "self-preservation" is that much more incredulous and the question is "To what degree?"
When Biden says you'd need an F-15 to defend yourself from the government. What percentage of air traffic controllers, requisitions officers, etc., is sitting their thinking, "Yes, you would need an F-15 to defend yourself from us."
How does Hunter Biden's being a grifter take away from Trump's being a grifter?
Caw caw!
It's just a grey box to me, but I know it's asinine, government-worship non-sense from Liarson.
He's doing some heavy whataboutism. Strangely sarcasmic isn't calling him out on it. I can't imagine why.
Uh huh, uh huh, now tell me about your ongoing Trump/Russia fever dreams.
"...OrangeManBad wasn't so bad"?
Orange Man bad?!? He BAD, all right! He SOOO BAD, He be GOOD! He be GREAT! He Make America Great Again!
We KNOW He can Make America Great Again, because, as a bad-ass businessman, He Made Himself and His Family Great Again! He Pussy Grabber in Chief!
He pussy-grab His creditors in 6 bankruptcies, His illegal sub-human workers ripped off of pay on His building projects, and His “students” in His fake Get-Rich-like-Me realty schools, and so on. So, He has a GREAT record of ripping others off! So SURELY He can rip off other nations, other ethnic groups, etc., in trade wars and border wars, for the benefit of ALL of us!!!
All Hail to THE Pussy Grabber in Chief!!!
Most of all, HAIL the Chief, for having revoked karma! What comes around, will no longer go around!!! The Donald has figured out that all of the un-Americans are SOOO stupid, that we can pussy-grab them all day, every day, and they will NEVER think of pussy-grabbing us right back!
Orange Man Bad-Ass Pussy-Grabber all right!
We CAN grab all the pussy, all the time, and NONE will be smart enough to EVER grab our pussies right back!
These voters simply cannot or will not recognize the central illusion of politics… You can pussy-grab all of the people some of the time, and you can pussy-grab some of the people all of the time, but you cannot pussy-grab all of the people all of the time! Sooner or later, karma catches up, and the others will pussy-grab you right back!
https://reason.com/2019/12/11/trump-abused-his-power-but-a-hasty-impeachment-will-undermine-that-point/
“Orange Man Bad” as a summary from conservatives, of page after page after page, detail after detail, testimony upon testimony, of HOW and WHY Orange Man is a lying hypocritical narcissistic and corrupt, self-centered weasel, who is ruining the good reputation (for years if not decades) of the USA, internationally, shows the utter contempt that conservatives hold the rest of us in! “Here, dummy, I can summarize ALL of the encyclopedic knowledge that has been gathered concerning Der TrumpfenFuhrer, so that YOU (dumbshit) will NOT have to trouble your pretty little head, studying all that boring stuff! It just amounts to Orange Man Bad, end of story!”
Don’t study medicine or boring medical texts… I will summarize it for you! “The human body is made of icky pus and smegma, slimy blood and mucus, and icky poop!”
Law summary: “He or she who habeas the corpus, must take proper care of it.”
Computers? Stop studying, you fool! “Learn to code; garbage in, garbage out; just be logical!”
Electrical Hardware Engineering? “Don’t stick your diode in an anode! Sparks is as sparks does!”
And then conservatives and other Trumptatorshit worshippers and ignorance worshippers have the NERVE to say, “We need more SKILLED AND TALENTED immigrants and fewer ignorant ones coming into the USA!”!
Can someone please arrange a brain transplant for SQRLSY? Even a pig brain might be better.
All Hail the Kleinen Kocktenfuehrer!!!
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
He waved his white flag. Looks like the Squealsy shitposting spree is over for the day.
Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer is a one-trick phony-pony! "White flag" is all that She (in Her Perfection as-fat-assed Internet Cesspool Queen) needs to write... And ALL stubborn, unrelenting FACTS are thereby invalidated!!!
Hey Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer... A most excellent definition of "truth" is, that which REMAINS true, no matter HOW many times that (Perfect) You may care to deny it! (Sample: Trump is an evil, short-sighted, selfish narcissist!)
Almost done...
Vivek Murthy has more faces than Janus. The opinion he holds depends on the network he's being interviewed on.
But Janus had the good sense to steer clear of the Hat of Vivek
Alright, what have you done with Jacob Sullum you tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist? The idea that Big Social Media and the Democrats are colluding to suppress free speech is as nutty as the idea that CNN is a liberal network or that Brian Stelter has the brain of a potato. The Jacob Sullum I know would never suggest such a thing, he has too much respect for the Democrats.
Leave potatoes alone.
Not True. He also has a raging hardon for Liz Cheney (R) and Adam Kinzinger (R). And that Dreamy Meijer guy in Michigan that just got his ass kicked. Sullum is bipartisan.
"... and you have a situation where it is increasingly difficult to tell whether they are exercising independent judgment or taking orders from the government."
And that's not a trivial problem. IF they are exercising their independent judgment, complying with the White House voluntarily, because their politics align, THEN these companies are exercising their right of free speech and it would be wrong to compel them to carry speech they do not wish to carry.
As I said yesterday, I support Alex Berenson in suing _the Federal government_. If they are coercing social media companies, and he can prove it, more power to him.
It was wrong of him to sue Twitter because they were alledgedly complying with government coercion. If that were the case, they would be fellow victims, not the ones to be sued.
You’ve ignored the Berenson case the entire time and now are making comments out of ignorance about it.
"comments out of ignorance" is Liarson's middle name.
And the ignorance is deliberate, not accidental.
"It was wrong of him to sue Twitter because they were alledgedly complying with government coercion. If that were the case, they would be fellow victims, not the ones to be sued."
There are a couple of problems with Mike's point here.
1) Often times companies do something illegal, even though they think they are doing it for legal reasons. Twitter may THINK that colluding as a government proxy is within its rights, but that makes it a WILLING PARTY to a crime: censorship. There is nothing wrong with suing them for their part in this effort.
This, by the way, happens a lot in cases like environmental law, finance and construction. A company says "[I am going to do this to my customer|I am going to build in this way] because regulations require me to do so." And it is perfectly valid to sue that corporation and prove that a) they are wrong in their interpretation of the law and b) this is leading them to do something that is illegal. And being a proxy (whether willing or not) of government censorship is illegal.
2) Mike's entire theory would morally excuse a Fascist system. In a fascist system, Party members typically run the companies. So the companies are allowed to operate "autonomously" but the market has been so culled, that only government proxies are available to make the decision. The proxies in a fascist economy aren't victims: they are collaborators. If there were corporate "victims" here, they would be the companies or corporate officers that fascist systems exclude from the economy.
Now we aren't full on fascist yet, but in the spectrum of "Collaborator to Victim", I would put these tech companies far closer to the former. And so what if they are a willing collaborator of government censorship? The fact is, the government is literally giving them detailed orders of whose speech to squash, and which kinds of speech to squash. And they are doing so.
And further, it is worth noting that- much like fascism- the government is actively putting its thumb on the scales to influence which corporate officers are in charge. The Facebook executive who chose to limit the spread of the NY Post Hunter Biden story was a Democratic Party operative. It is likely that he was put into that position PRECISELY because Facebook wanted a liaison to the government that held sway with regulators. At a certain point, you cannot distinguish "corporations" as victims or collaborators, they are just a Government Sponsored Entity that runs on private funds, but exist completely at the sufferance of, and service of the government.
Mike excuses democrat racism every day.
‘Fascism’…….. fucking autocorrect.
You think he doesn't excuse both?
Good point.
And being a proxy (whether willing or not) of government censorship is illegal.
In order for this claim to be successful, one would have to prove that the company acted DIRECTLY BECAUSE of the government "requests". Now, that MAY be true in the Berenson case. But in a lot of the other cases that are perpetually discussed here, like deplatforming Alex Jones or Trump, it is pretty hard to argue that those decisions were made DIRECTLY BECAUSE of some government coercion.
the government is actively putting its thumb on the scales to influence which corporate officers are in charge. The Facebook executive who chose to limit the spread of the NY Post Hunter Biden story was a Democratic Party operative.
The Democratic Party told Facebook whom to hire in that position?
And, wasn't the government run by Trump at the time of the Hunter Biden story? How could the party *out of power* be using the government to put its thumb on the scale here? This doesn't even make sense.
It is likely that he was put into that position PRECISELY because Facebook wanted a liaison to the government that held sway with regulators.
Well, yes. It's called a lobbyist. It's an attempt by the company to influence the government's actions, which they have every right to do. Why would you think that Facebook's lobbyists would actually be lobbyists from the government?
"In order for this claim to be successful, one would have to prove that the company acted DIRECTLY BECAUSE of the government "requests"."
No we don't. Please read my post. If you are collaborating with a government to censor, then you are collaborating in censorship. If the government is sending your company take down orders and you are doing it, then you are collaborating in censorship.
Whether you "want" to do what the government wants is immaterial. We have multiple instances of people being available on these platforms for months or years, and making "objectionable" things for weeks or years, and the platform only bans them after they end up on a list sent from the government.
But you have this very simple test- a test that is conveniently constructed to be impossible to apply except in very rare circumstances. It's either or. Binary. For some reason I seem to recall you recently railing against people you (incorrectly) said were simplistically applying binary thinking.
The SCotUS has long understood that there is a spectrum here. You have to accept a spectrum, or your legal construct would literally permit fascism. After all, in a fascist system, the "Private Companies" censoring you are doing so willingly.
It was wrong of him to sue Twitter because they were alledgedly complying with government coercion. If that were the case, they would be fellow victims, not the ones to be sued.
Twitter admitted fault. The suit was 100% solid.
IF they are exercising their independent judgment, complying with the White House voluntarily, because their politics align, THEN these companies are exercising their right of free speech and it would be wrong to compel them to carry speech they do not wish to carry.
Agreed, but it is an easy call that the government should not be making "suggestions" to media companies at all which is what this lawsuit is seeking to achieve.
According to liarson's logic if a woman is threatened with sex or death and she lives then she wasn't raped because it was consensual.
Agreed, but it is an easy call that the government should not be making "suggestions" to media companies at all which is what this lawsuit is seeking to achieve.
Why shouldn't they make suggestions?
Not every suggestion is a threat, not every suggestion is prima facie evidence of intimidation. Sometimes, a suggestion really is just a suggestion.
Here, the government is making a "suggestion" on how to maintain good oral health.
https://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/basics/adult-oral-health/tips.html
Should this web page be viewed as a threat? Do we have to fear the toothbrush police to be knocking down our door any day now?
Maybe the issue is a little more complicated than "they shouldn't make suggestions to media companies".
Here, the government is making a "suggestion" on how to maintain good oral health.
Goddamn, this really is one of the dumbest comparisons your fat ass has ever done, and that's saying something.
Why am I not surprised that you’re here giving the government the benefit of the doubt? Again.
https://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/basics/adult-oral-health/tips.html
Should this web page be viewed as a threat?
Telling us about oral health is outside the role of government, but you're right: it doesn't seem to be a threat (government waste
and debt issues aside). It is also not seeking to control speech and is therefore irrelevant to this discussion.
When the whitehouse asks for a specific statement, person or idea to be removed, banned or altered it is controlling speech and a threat.
I dunno. Mere suggestions are in a gray area. If the lawsuits can show outright coercion or threats, that is, of course, not in a gray area.
The government has no right to "suggest" censorship. They cannot be involved in any form of media, at all.
"The email, which was recently disclosed during discovery in a federal lawsuit that Louisiana Attorney General Jeff Landry and Missouri Attorney General Eric Schmitt filed in May, vividly illustrates how the Biden administration engages in censorship by proxy, pressuring social media platforms to implement speech restrictions that would be flagrantly unconstitutional if the government tried to impose them directly."
Jacob and Reason Staff,
It's been clear to anybody with ANY FUCKING BRAINS AT ALL that this has been going on for years. YOU didn't care because it was happening against your political opponents. Real libertarians have been told by you far left progressives, that these are private companies and they can censor whomever they want.
Here's the deal Reason Editors, you cannot selectively choose when to support Liberty. It's all the time or fuck off slaver. You've clearly made your choice. Despite a couple articles recently, nothing short of a public apology signed by entire staff and some firings for egregious offenders, you have zero credibility with real life, authentic Libertarians.
So, fuck off slavers.
Hear, Hear.
It was obvious to everybody after the Trump permaban. Well maybe not, science writer Ron "I can't wait for the 91st booster" Bailey. I mean even Charlie Brown eventually figures out Lucy is going to pull the football.
Well said.
+1
>Joe Biden accused Facebook of "killing people"
Man, that Remy video fits in to SO many situations.
That does not mean social media platforms are obligated to host those opinions. To the contrary, they have a First Amendment right to exercise editorial discretion.
Here's where I think the issue needs to be better probed. Editorial discretion is what happens when you're a publication. But these are not publications.
So here's where I'd question the private property question. If I own a restaurant and someone starts putting up campaign signs on my property, I have the right to tell them to take them up and get lost. Because people might infer that any message on my property is there with my blessing, if not my endorsement, and I can choose to disassociate with it. It's much the same like a guest article in a newspaper, where the publication can just reject the story and has no obligation to publish. They can choose who they're not associating with.
But I don't know if any rational person thinks twitter explicitly endorses every message on their platform, or Facebook endorses every message. It's not compelled speech when it's not your speech, so I don't see how it's specifically a free speech issue. You don't see Dull Doris' tweets and assume she's an official Twitter Spokesperson carrying an official message, or that her opinions are officially endorse by Twitter, that's not something a sane person believes. She's just a person using their network to say her own thing. So it doesn't implicate the right of free speech because nobody confuses Twitter as an entity with the speaker, like they might if someone is trying to give away campaign pins at a local restaurant.
The right something like Twitter actually has is the right of free association. They shouldn't have to offer service to anyone they don't want to, no questions asked. But that's not how we treat businesses and corporations in the USA, we have several rules about how they're not allowed to discriminate. We even have laws regarding common carriers.
The other main right they have is product control. If certain users are trying to spam or misuse their service in order to make it miserable for other uses, they have actual rights to control their brand. They can simply remove them from the service for annoying all the other customers so they can make the overall process more enjoyable. They should have no obligation to put the n-word in line of sight of every person who clicks on their page because they want their product to be widely accessible and inoffensive to a broad userbase.
Those are the ways they need to proceed. I don't think these companies have very strong claims when it comes to free speech because their company is not producing speech, merely hosting speech that is clearly coming from others, and you wouldn't assume it's endorsed by Twitter-especially when they show constant ads so you KNOW what's actually Twitter endorsed.
The more appropriate analogy is that a bunch of hippy commies come into your restaurant and start talking loudly and trying to engage your customers in conversations that they don't want to engage in. As a restaurant owner, you can freely say "Get the fuck out. I don't like the atmosphere you are creating here."
Another example might be the pub that wants to serve its local clientele and who kicks out strangers who come in and bring a different vibe.
Likewise, the Glibertarians have their own message board with conversation about their style of libertarianism. And when people run afoul of their standards of conduct, they ban them. I pop over there quite often, and post every now and again. I find their standards to tend towards arbitrary and cliquish. But so what? It is their site run at their expense. Why do I care if they are arbitrary and cliquish?
In theory I have no problem with this system. As Sullum notes (and we have been pointing out for several years) this shit changes when it increasingly seems that the restaurant/newspaper/forum/socialmedia site are executing their policies to curry favor with or to avoid repercussions from the government.
"a bunch of hippy commies come into your restaurant and start talking loudly and trying to engage your customers in conversations that they don't want to engage in. As a restaurant owner, you can freely say "Get the fuck out. I don't like the atmosphere you are creating here."
Sure but what if they're black hippies or transgender hippies?
Game over.
Yup you have discovered that anti-discrimination laws are not libertarian.
The more appropriate analogy is that a bunch of hippy commies come into your restaurant and start talking loudly and trying to engage your customers in conversations that they don't want to engage in. As a restaurant owner, you can freely say "Get the fuck out. I don't like the atmosphere you are creating here."
Basically the same way I was looking at it, though expressed better. If someone is being a nuisance that disrupts your business, you don't have to let them hang around. But that's not a "Free speech" issue, so defending the "Free speech" rights of Twitter/Facebook is not persuasive to me, even though that's how Sullum describes it.
But yes, the big problem is the government coercing certain companies to punish the enemies of the government, in ways that the government is not allowed to do directly.
"the big problem is the government coercing certain companies to punish the enemies of the government
And it's not just a big problem but a catastrophic nation-destroying problem. Outside of genocide this is one of the worst things a government can do.
"But that's not a "Free speech" issue, so defending the "Free speech" rights of Twitter/Facebook is not persuasive to me, even though that's how Sullum describes it."
Sure it is. It is viewpoint discrimination. I don't want these people talking about their hemp and communes in my pub. And it is my right to kick them out because I don't like what they are saying.
If your concern is that they are bothering your customers, so what? A platform can make exactly the same argument. Let's say AmSoc shows up at Glibertarians and keeps trying to steer conversations towards critiques of capitalism, and debates over which socialist activity they think is best. That is also disrupting the customers, who are there to talk Glibertarian shit.
The whole point is that speech IS DISRUPTIVE. It is not benign. It takes time every day for me to post boilerplate appeals to shun SPB when he posts here. Twitter is full of the most petty, illogical quippy bitch fights imaginable because (the Acceptable) stupid people are permitted to post their sick burns with impunity. It is entirely up to Twitter to determine whether or not they accept that atmosphere.
The problem comes when you tolerate the hippies for a while, but then the health inspector starts making comments that you should really get rid of those hippies, so you do.
The problem is they use the ability to ban hippies bothering others to ban people in their own soundproof siderooms for what is heard by people barging in.
Wouldn’t the situation with Twitter and Facebook be more like you only kicking out the hippies while ignoring the biker gang saying pretty much the same thing and being just as obnoxious?
That is why I brought up the pub that wants to exclusively cater to locals. I have seen this time and again. Stranger comes in, and maybe one of the locals gets out of hand and arguments start, and the owner kicks out the stranger- even if maybe the local started it all. Because the owner wants a place for locals, not a place where every argument is moderated impartially. That's their right.
Again, what Sullum points out is very different, and it is fair to ask when government collusion makes your company into a GSE. I think these big tech companies have gotten there. But the fact that these guys are bad actors does not just automatically invalidate peoples' property rights and rights of free association. Letting bad actors work with government to do harm, then trying to fix it with more government is how we got Sarbanes-Oxley, ACA, No Child Left Behind, and Dodd-Frank, among other things.
It does depend on how the pub advertises itself.
A Holocaust education web site with a forum clearly advertises itself as a place to discuass Holocaust history, and there is no ethical conflict in excluding neo-Nazi or militant Islamist trolls.
A couple of questions for your mind to think about:
- Who pay the bills when someone posts a tweet on Twitter?
- How many Americans are active daily users of Twitter? (It's pretty low.) How then can there be a claim that Twitter is some kind of public square that Americans look to as a source of all their news?
- How many Americans are active daily users of Twitter? (It's pretty low.) How then can there be a claim that Twitter is some kind of public square that Americans look to as a source of all their news?
Not my argument. Not even close to what I've been trying to say. It's not that they're a public square, I just don't find their argument of "free speech" persuasive when it is not their speech, and would never be taken as speech of their company. When their whole user experience is built around letting other people say things, it's clearly not something they're publishing and curating.
Who pay the bills when someone posts a tweet on Twitter?
That's simple, it's advertisers. But the advertisers actually NEED people to post on Twitter because otherwise nobody would be looking at it, so the consumers themselves are creating the content that Twitter is selling. Or at least, Twitter is providing them a location, but the community is the product. In a sense, the users are the ones generating the revenue for Twitter. If it wasn't something people wanted to put eyeballs on, nobody would want to advertise on it, but people want eyeballs on it because users are posting on it.
"Not my argument. Not even close to what I've been trying to say."
Mike knows. He's deliberately redefining and changing your argument into something he can attack.
He learned this trick from chemjeff who does it in almost every post he makes.
OK, do you think the advertisers want to advertise on a platform that allows any old asshole to say anything they want to?
Ask Reason, there are plenty of advertisers here.
Wait What? (checks URL) So after at least 3 years of making the libertarian case for censorship Sullum sees the light? Fuck you Jacob.
No he does not see the light but he sees an opportunity to claim such like the ACLU of today resurrecting Skokie at every turn.
"Missouri Attorney General Eric Schmitt . . . "
Remember a month ago when our incoming Senator-to-be was bad news because "something something . . . Trump!"?
Or all the articles the past 6 + years saying, 'but muh private companies!' when more than half of the commentariat was able to correctly identify a consistent pattern of undue government influence in favor of one political party.
Mistakes were made... ignore the fact that 100% of the mistakes went in one direction, and one direction only.
Yeah, only been pointing this out for five years every time they run a 'but muh private company, section 230' story. And of course idiots like White Mike have for the last five years made excuses for them and appear to be continuing to, despite hard evidence. Waiting for LyingJeffy to show up and lecture us on how this isn't proof of censorship by the left and or the right is worse because they changed an 8th grade curriculum book from a comic book to another source. And 'don't say gay' bullshit.
Now that Reason has addressed the elephant in the room we can all go back to ignoring it. Nothing will happen to anyone in the government, this is now the new normal so get use to it. The overton window has offically shifted.
Watch White Mike and sarcasmic insist that now that the issue has finally been raised here that there's no point in discussing it ever again.
How can this article exist? It goes against the narrative of what leftist, Democrat Reason stands for!
Well, we finally had a successful lawsuit, with receipts so this one was a little tough to ignore as the ravings of Josh Hawley supporters.
Poor sarc thought he had a gotcha, but he’s so stupid he doesn’t realize what’s happened.
Drunk too. Don’t forget that.
Hey all of ye Reasonoid readers! Do NOT bother to read this article about Joe Biden (or his policies)! Do NOT bother to read (or read about) ANY links, facts, or logic contained in this article and-or video! Do NOT bother to trouble your pretty little heads about silly factual details gathered by useless Reason-writer eggheads!
Because I, the SMARTEST ONE, can “summarize” it ALL for you! Here it is, above article summarized: “Senile Mackerel Snapper Bad”!
(/Sarc, revenge for moronic “summaries” about “Orange Man Bad”)
Orange Man Bad Sqrlsy.
After three fucking years of egregious first amendment violations it finally gets noticed?
Wow, you're right sarcasmic and during those three years everyone else was wrong. It wasn't being ignored because now Reason finally mentioned it.
Take a lap, you hero. You've earned it. You're a true keeper of the faith.
How long have you and the other leftarians denied this existed again? Fuck off with your gaslighting.
You really don’t understand the arguments other people make, do you?
No, he doesn't. His tired shtick is all that's important anymore.
Half-educated, virus-flouting, antisocial, superstition-over-science-and-reason, obsolete right-wingers are among my favorite culture war casualties.
Quit whining, clingers, or your betters may stop being so gracious in victory.
Open wide, hicklib, you and yours are about to get progress shoved down your throat at 3500 fps.
What's funny about the Berenson case is that a lot of the reporting makes it look like it was about Berenson. Make no mistake, the government is and has been doing this very thing with the tech companies, everywhere, all the time and the tech companies are not only amenable to it, they're actually asking for it.
So it’s been proven in a court of law that the Brandon administration censures its political opponents by proxy. Which the FBI admits to their role in. The same FBI that is under the jurisdiction of the Executive.
When do impeachment proceedings begin?
Or does this not rise to the level of “obstruction of congress” they impeached Trump with?
Every Republican running for re-election (and 3rd party candidates as well) should campaign on this.
As well as non-incumbents. And why not Democrats who care about the future of this country as well.
Because the Republicans are cucks? Or, they're being stealthy about it?
The Democrats are being pretty blatant about it with a FYTW attitude, and the Republicans really are massive cucks... so yeah.
Far from proven. Read the discussion of the nuance in the comments on the page.
"I know our teams met today to better understand the scope of what the White House expects from us on misinformation going forward."
Fuck all the people involved with this sort of thing, and all the people who think this is OK if not a good idea.
How the fuck does anyone think they should do this, and think they will get away with it? And how the fuck will we not end up dividing the country, amicably or not?
Isn't this a better example of "semi-fascism"? Y'know, when the gov't and the private sector collude to forcibly suppress the opposition?
Seems pretty textbook to me, but what do I know? I'm just a lowly serf.
Excuse me while I metamorphose into a cockroach.
Yeah, but that's using the actual definition of fascism, not the way the word is used today. Much like literally now means its exactly opposite, figuratively.
Once we can get 'figuratively' to mean 'literally', the circle will be complete.
No it is not. “Fascism” has always meant a government that uses coercion to silence any resistance.
Yes, there are social media companies and media that ally with the Democrats. But there are also lots of opposing sources of information.
They're not trying to suppress the opposition, though they should (more on that later). They're trying to suppress lies, often supplied by hostile foreign actors. Are you defining the Republican party as the embodiment of lies? Well then, I suppose we agree after all.
They say they are suppressing lies. Problem being that many of those supposed lies have turned out to be truths.
Under a regime of freedom of speech, the government is the last institution to trust with determining what is truth and then give the ability to suppress what it decides are lies.
True, but here’s where it is bot black and white: there really is a LOT of misinformation and lies, with the truth you refer to mixed in.
Now, as a libertarian, I agree the government should not be suppressing any speech, even lies or misinformation. It used to be common wisdom (I thought) that lies and misinformation should be countered with truth and good information.
If the government is using coercion to force social media platforms to suppress certain speech, then the government is to blame and the social media companies are victims.
"As a libertarian"
I laughed hard at that comment.
"They're not trying to suppress the opposition, though they should (more on that later)."
Did we read the same article? I don't think we read the same article.
"They're trying to suppress lies, often supplied by hostile foreign actors."
The Gov't should certainly do that, with the appropriate constitutional tools they already possess. p.s. there has already been multiple debunking of the extent and efficacy of foreign propaganda in social media. Russian Bots are so 2018.
"Are you defining the Republican party as the embodiment of lies? Well then, I suppose we agree after all."
Where did I mention the Republican Party? I would say the same thing if the Republicans were in charge. Do you know what website you are on?
What? I sit here and watch people repeat the lies of Russian propagandists every day, all day, all over FOX News. I sit here and watch it happen. What studies? Do you think this country doesn't have a problem with millions of people believing lies because of propaganda?
Answer slowly: who won the 2020 presidential election?
I love how you have to engage in hyperbole and use lies to complain about people believing in lies.
Biggest problem in this country is people engaging in the exact behavior they condemn.
LOL you're like two years and six bombshell stories of blatant First Amendment violations late.
What should have happened...
On July 16, 2021, the day that Joe Biden accused Facebook of "killing people" by failing to suppress misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines, Facebook released a statement saying that it is a public forum owned and maintained by a private company and people are free to say what they want.
That would never happen, because most people in power at companies consider themselves good Democrats and want to do whatever is in the interest of the Democrat party.
And that's simply because right leaning people wouldn't get positions in those companies
And, unfortunately, that is companies exercising their right of free speech. They are CHOOSING to comply with Democrats.
The proper response for conservatives is to come up woth their own social media platforms.
And what happened when they did that?
They botched it. So far.
Ah, the pot calling the kettle red!
That actually did happen. Ambassador Dodd--fluent in German--returned from Nazi Germany and told large gatherings of Americans what was going on in Germany. Ambassador Bingham was no less candid. Nazi officials, affronted to the brink of tears, demanded our government silence these men. The official reply was to the effect that American private citizens could say whatever they pleased.
Beyond the cooperation is the problem that people go back and forth between working for the media/tech and political parties/government
Are companies really distinct from government when they are entirely run by people who have ties to the political party in power? This exists on the right as well, but pretty much only Fox News. A former Dem staffer can go work setting policy at a tech company and not just one of dozens of left wing media companies
A hard problem to deal with without tromping on people’s rights of free association and employment.
The classic libertarian answer, which isn’t perfect, is to keep government small and powerless so it cannot hand out huge favors to cronies.
Semi-hypothetical: suppose Trump won the 2020 election and then he or his people strongly suggested to FB and Twitter that they need to reduce misinformation - and what Trump meant by misinformation was anything suggesting any tie-ins between Trump and Russia, that Trump's response to Covid was less than stellar, that Trump's recommended treatments (bleach, hydroxychloroquine, etc.) were ineffective, and FB and Twitter duly complied with the strong suggestion.
I imagine that there would, quite rightly, be howls from the Democrats. It does no good arguing that in this scenario the difference is that Trump was trying to compel misinformation or disinformation. That may be an appropriate characterisation, but the deeper truth is you do not want government to compel the speech of private companies or their policies towards the speech of their clients.
Insread, expand the circumstances under which someone can be sued. You tell all your friends on FB to ingest bleach to cure Covid, and someone does, they can sue you. Toy post an unchecked rumour about some celeb, they can sue you if it's untrue. Perhaps cap damages. And let people take responsibility for what they post.
I do think that anonymity is a big culprit here in terms of enabling bad behavior online. One big reason why there are armies of moderators on Facebook in the first place is because of anonymous people behaving badly. It definitely ought to be easier for people online to be held accountable for their speech that goes too far. I am not sure I favor your solution but the idea deserves further exploration.
You tell all your friends on FB to ingest bleach to cure Covid, and someone does, they can sue you.
Considering no one, not even Trump, actually did this, your dumb hypothetical doesn't even apply here.
Obvious rhetorical exaggeration, so fuck off.
Obvious strawman, so fuck off yourself.
On Sept. 17, 2001, not long after 9/11, Bill Maher went on his HBO TV show Politically Incorrect and said that the 9/11 hijackers were not cowards, but it was cowardly for the US military to lob cruise missiles at foreign targets from far away.
Soon after the WH Press Secretary Ari Fleischer, denounced Maher and said, "people have to watch what they say and watch what they do."
His show was canceled not long after.
https://archive.ph/xaIN
Was the cancellation of his show the result of government censorship by proxy? That sounds pretty ominous for the WH to say "people have to watch what they say". Was HBO just taking marching orders from the White House?
The sensible answer is of course no. Maher said some outrageous things with very poor timing and it can be very plausibly argued that it was a sensible business decision at that time to cancel his show to protect HBO's brand. And Fleischer wasn't directing HBO what to do, he was reflecting what others were thinking, even though he shouldn't have used his position as the WH spokesperson to do so.
But of course that did not stop the usual suspects, such as the authors of the cited NY Times article above, to raise 'troubling concerns' about government squelching dissent in a moment of national crisis and patriotic fervor. That is of course because they were not neutral observers. They hated Bush and were motivated to frame his admin's actions in the most negative light possible, while maintaining a fig leaf of journalistic standards. So a company that makes a very understandable business decision, that just so happens to align with the government's priorities, is denounced as some fascist collaborator by the partisans motivated to frame it as such.
Now, this could all be entirely wrong, and perhaps there was some late-night phone call between the White House and some HBO Exec where they demanded Maher be fired "or else", and that phone call was the real motivation for firing him, direct government intimidation. But that seems entirely implausible.
It is much the same here with the claims of government censorship here. How do we separate completely defensible, legitimate business decisions, from indefensible, illegitimate government intimidation to silence dissent? Well, we cannot listen to the motivated partisans on either side, because they have every incentive to deceptively frame the narrative in the most favorable terms for their tribe. We have to use our own logic and reason.
So, suppose the government makes a "request" of a particular company. This "request" could be a sincere good-faith request, or it could be a veiled threat, depending on one's point of view. But nevertheless, it is not a direct command, and it is not some law or rule formally passed to compel behavior. It is a "request". What are some ways that a company might plausibly respond to this request?
1. The company might view the request as a threat, and respond by complying with the request out of fear of government reprisal. That's wrong, and that is what we libertarians ought to be most concerned about. But it is only one of many possible responses.
2. The company might take the request at face value as an actual request, not a threat, and decide to comply with it because they sincerely agree with the request. That is also possible. Their sincere agreement may be motivated by any number of factors: civic mindedness, alignment with business goals, trying to appease potential customers who might agree with the request, even ideological agreement. Those are all possible. And the business has every right to make this decision freely for themselves if they so choose. While we libertarians should be vigilant against government attempts to use businesses by proxy, if we are to be consistent defenders of liberty, we must also defend the business's property rights to decide how best to freely decide to use their own property.
3. The business might decide not to comply with the request, regardless of whether they view it as a veiled threat or not. That is also their perfectly legitimate call to make. We libertarian defenders of liberty should defend a business's decision to use their property even if it is unpopular.
Since we cannot read minds and we do not know what the actual motivation is of this business's leadership, our libertarian inclinations ought to lead us to a "hands off" approach. We're not going to try to tell the business how they "must" respond to a request of this nature - it is their property and they ought to decide how they wish to use it best.
But then how do we prevent the situation of #1 above, when the government makes a "request", which is really a threat, and companies comply with the request not out of sincere agreement but because of fear of reprisal? The libertarian solution here IMO is twofold:
1. Private property owners ought to seize their own private property rights and not give in so meekly. It would help if private property rights were stronger in this country. These "requests"/threats only carry weight, in part, because private property owners don't necessarily think that they have the legal authority on their side to refuse requests. Having stronger private property protections in this country would make it less likely for business owners to comply with "requests" that they might not agree with.
2. The power of the government to act on these types of "requests" should be curtailed. Again these "requests"/threats only carry weight because the government, particularly the executive branch and regulatory agencies, have unenumerated power beyond the formal lawmaking regulatory processes to act upon these "requests". Private property owners should know that these types of "requests" don't carry much weight because those in positions of authority don't have the power to act upon those requests outside of formal processes which would grant opportunities for due process of law.
This is boring standard libertarian analysis and it doesn't cast Democrats as demons so of course it will be rejected around here. But nonetheless I think this is the proper approach.
Lies that get people killed are not protected speech. There. Lots of speech is not protected under the first amendment. We're talking about lies sold by charlatans for profit that get people killed. Forget a whisper in the ear, there should be lawsuits bankrupting every single Ivermectin peddling fatface That's how it would indeed work in a free market.
Repeal 230.
Your lies get lots of people killed. What should we do about you and your fellow travelers?
"Lies that get people killed are not protected speech."
Yes, they are.
"Lots of speech is not protected under the first amendment"
Yes, it is. All of it. You obviously don't understand the concept of "prior restraint".
"there should be lawsuits bankrupting every single Ivermectin peddling fatface"
Anyone who feels they were damaged by advice concerning Ivermectin is free to file such lawsuits. That's how it works in a free market.
In an uncoerced market I would be able to buy invermectin and that other stuff. Mystical fascism tells me that LSD makes you leap out of tall buildings and that marijuana invariably makes users accelerate a car into a crowd of people and not remember the event. So, fearful of repeat customers, their thugs stand ready to stop me--with live ammo--from testing either hypothesis. This is how blind faith justifies coerced silence. Answers that cannot be questioned are the totalitarian way.
The difference between your or my or SQRLSY’s or sarc’s analysis and a lot of the right-wing commenters here is that they think they can read minds and can know things without any evidence.
Right-wing has since the 1930s meant Christian National Socialists and Caudillo de Dios fascists. By their collectivist lights, Jesus or Gott the Father whispers Truth into their ears or eager imaginings through the miracle of Faith. Evidence is but a blasphemous impostor to anyone inculcated in the worship of Faith. This is a falsifiable statement. Go ahead and explain to one of them that isotope decay rates prove the Turin shroud was never wrapped around Jesus, and wait for comprehension to dawn...
Hahahahahahahahahaha
What an absolute smug piece of shit you are.
I mean, how low is someone's self esteem whereby they literally have to post about how great they are on a comment board?!
I seem to remember libertarians supporting Maher and denouncing Fleischer/the government in this exchange.
Have positions changed?
But thur PRIVUT COMPNEES!
What the hell they are doiing
I would like to think that, having discovered this issue, Reason will stay on the social-media censorship beat, and retire the private-companies line.
So, you want them to abandon libertarianism?
BIDENS SPEECH,AND EVERYONE THOUGHT BERNE WAS THE COMMUNIST, LISTEN TO WHAT BIDEN HAD TO SAY, WHO IS ON THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PAYROLL AND HIS FAMILY, HAD TO SAY ABOUT AMERICANS WHO NEVER TOOK ANY MONEY FROM CHINA OR THEIR FAMILIES, WHERE DOES HIS LOYALTY TO AMERICA BEGIN AND END?
Look on your keyboard for a key called CAPS LOCK, and press it once.
Oh great! Another Silvershirt for Willkie from Central Casting.
There were voices in 1997 that pointed out that "Protection For 'Good Samaritan' Blocking and Screening of Offensive Material" is in no way consistent, prima facie, with "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Libertarians, and I'm fairly certain Reason, was one of them. Most of those writers from that era are gone. The writers from this era have said "S230 is the 1A of the internet." I don't think the issue is one that an apology can fix.
I hate to mention it because the attempts to redefine the definitions of words. Unfortunately many people believe that Nazism and Fascism are the same thing.
There are distinct differences between the two although Nazism is an offshoot of Fascism. Nazism resorted to race superiority and purity, while Fascism only promotes nationalism and limiting freedom.
Fascism believes in a class system and that the state is the means to advance their goal of nationalism. In economic terms the line between private and public enterprise becomes blurred where private enterprises become de facto enterprises of the state.
I'm not calling the Biden administration a bunch of Nazis or Fascists. Although with the current direction of the country and behaviors of Biden administration there are striking similarities with Fascism.
Not just with the Biden administration effectively dictating to social media to suppress speech. But also with unilateral executive orders and weaponizing government agencies against their opponents.
Biden pulled a reverse Emmanuel Goldstein last night. He planted his own dried-out, angered mug before the telescreen and gave us Two Minutes Hate.
The scene was dull and funereal. Two marines played the role of Praetorian muscle. But the message, soaked in totalitarian fabric, was clear enough. The rabid dog and his party are now going after the people.
This guy has gone nuts, and he’s starting to piss me off.
Everything you say is true, but you are leaving out of the picture that the people he condemned are his mirror image, full of hate and suppression themselves.
LOL that entirely depends on Biden's 1/6 narrative being true. There's a reason they won't release all the video.
Do tell…
It’s the dynamic between Blue and Red Team that is destroying the country. They enable each other.
The way out is for the majority of Americans, who are not loyal to either team, to reject the whole game.
Part of individual primacy is the right to sound ugly. Don’t soil your shorts over that. Concern yourself, rather, when the President as an executive function denigrates ( and worse) the peoples.
He says he’s laying claim to the soul of the country. Uh huh. Joe Biden: Messiah. Even the angels are chuckling.
And when you’re using a Faustian bargain of divide and conquer to obtain it, all you’re really doing is digging graves.
Sorry, but it is clearly both sides, and I’m not sure what to do to make partisans see that.
Libertariantranslator did a satire of the Two Minutes Hate with Big Biden and stOrange Trouper two years ago, before it was even fashionable--but long after Biden's prohibition policies helped the Reagan/Bush Bush party crash the economy. https://bit.ly/3wUONY1
These are the Fascists you're looking for.
I thought their private companies who can do as they please . Besides start you own social media company if your not happy . Except when someone does and their thwarted at every turn . It’s obvious the press and social media are working together with the Democrats. That’s the definition of fascism or at least an oligarchy . Then you wonder why Trump has such appeal.
Does not paying your hosting bills to the conservative-oriented hosting company that serves up your social media site count as “being thwarted at every turn.”
Does botching the rollout of your social media site count as “being thwarted at every turn”.
Unlike TRUTH Social, Facebook and Twitter and Google were never launched as political platforms. There are politics, but there are also pictures of the grand kiddies and the cat, and celebrity gossip, and sports talk, and mutual interest and support groups, and on and on.
Doesn’t “doing as you please” include thwarting who you want to?
Don’t private companies and government get to collude if they want to?
If my private or public company buys all the resources necessary for life, don’t I get to charge whatever I want for them? Letting those who can pay live and the rest die.
I’d say that’s “thwarting” the rest.
I for one cannot believe that the "pro democracy" and "pro rights" party would do such a thing 🙁
Sullum must be alive to the irony of Justice Thomas uttering "The government cannot accomplish through threats of adverse government action what the Constitution prohibits it from doing directly." Thomas just said to let the Deconstructed Texas government encourage and pay men with guns to chase down pregnant women to enslave into forced labor of involuntary reproduction as if the 13th Amendment had never existed. Thank goodness for the 19th amendment and Mencken's box of matches.
Pregnancy is the normal beginning of every persons life.
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Nobody has the rights to thwart anyone else’s.
Is Joe Biden Drunk
Glenn Greenwald Unravels Democrat-Sponsored ‘Regime Of Censorship’ In Damning Thread
Greenwald initially raised the alarm and left The Intercept — the outlet he cofounded — when he was asked to sanitize an article he was writing about then-candidate Joe Biden, his son Hunter, and their past dealings with both China and Ukraine. And in the months since, he has been vocal about coordinated attempts within corporate media to shield Biden and other Democrats from criticism.
“The regime of censorship being imposed on the internet – by a consortium of DC Dems, billionaire-funded ‘disinformation experts,’ the US Security State, and liberal employees of media corporations – is dangerously intensifying in ways I believe are not adequately understood,” Greenwald said on Tuesday to kick off his thread.
Censorship is the first tool of all dictators.
he is drunker
Consider this one question.
What is the point of venerating free speech if lying is permissible?
When every fact is countered by a lie, or many of them, people can’t make decisions in their interests based on fact.
Only you are the wise one to guide all the stupid and gullible, right?
Fuck off.
So me the Holocaust is a proven fact. You are a liar, and a Nazi. A lying Nazi. Therefore you should be put in prison.
Where’s the dumbest sonofabitch commenting at Reason? Ah….there he is.
He’s so wise he repeatedly argues with bots.
You demonstrate that before lying can be criminalized it is necessary to clarify exactly what constitutes real proof of truth.
It can’t be paid or coerced testimony, in fact any testimony itself could be a lie.
Scientists and philosophers are professionals at identifying reality aka truth. They use the principles of logic and science alone to do so. This is the model required to criminalize lying.
So what logic or science, that cannot be refuted, are you personally aware of demonstrates that Nazis killed six million Jews, mainly by cyanide gas during WW2?
Without such evidence, your claim of truth, is a lie.
Over the years here I have provided many examples of logic and science that absolutely refutes the holocaust story as told. Nobody has ever refuted anything that I’ve said.
Without the evidence of logic and science to refute what I say your claim that I’m lying is also a lie.
This demonstrates that I have no fear of prosecution when the criteria is logic and science, while you should be very worried about making unsupported claims.
Not with you on that one. If you give government the power to imprison people for lying, then degenerates like holocaust deniers become difficult to identify and shun.
-jcr
Surprise me and refute what I say.
Yikes! What does being unable to refute what I say make you?
Providing evidence that refutes the holocaust lie is neither advocating one or hating anyone.
I like feeding degenerate lying trolls logic and science they can neither prove nor refute to laugh at them every time you choke.
Hahaha.