Bernard Kerik: Anti-Police Rhetoric "Has the Potential to Rip America at its Seams"

"[New York City] Mayor de Blasio, [Al] Sharpton and others like them…have blood on their hands," former NYPD Commissioner Bernard Kerik told FOX News immediately following the execution-style murder of two cops on December 20th.

A couple days later at Time, Kerik wrote that war has been "waged on our homeland" by anti-cop forces that "has the potential to rip America at its seams and cause damage far worse than any attack on our country, including that on 9/11/2001."

As several Reason folks argued following this horrifying murder, blaming Mayor de Blasio, Al Sharpton, or the recent spate of protests in New York for the actions of a deranged cop killer is nonsensical, and ironically the sort of argument more typically heard from media critics on the left looking to attribute acts of violence to right-wing "hate speech." The person responsible for this senseless murder was the man who pulled the trigger.

Back in August, Kerik sat down with Nick Gillespie for a far more sober discussion of Eric Garner, police militarization, Ferguson, broken windows policing, and more. Click below to watch that interview.

Comments

[Fist of Etiquette]

A couple days later at Time, Kerik wrote that war has been "waged on our homeland" by anti-cop forces that "has the potential to rip America at its seams and cause damage far worse than any attack on our country, including that on 9/11/2001."

Kerik is too polite to say it, but it's not just anti-cop forces. Anyone who has never worn the badge is the enemy, and the upcoming war is going to be like 9/11 times a thousand!

[RussianPrimeMinister]

I know you're joking. . .but I'm afraid that you might actually be right.

[Hillary's Clitdong]

It will be 9/11 times 853.692184827185. Exactly.

[Warrren]

698.475423949515?

[C. S. P. Schofield]

Bullshit. The cops are badly disciplined, ineptly lead, and poor shots. IF, and I repeat IF, they are stupid enough to actually go the full Fascist on us, they will lose quickly.

[Res ipsa loquitur]

This. There are a lot of combat vets out there after a decade of war with the skills to pulverize a police force. The police, sadly, wouldn't stand a chance and wouldn't know how to react against a capable opponent and not someone weaker.

I saw how the police in Ferguson deployed on the tv and was aghast. When I saw a "sniper" and I use that term very loosely, sitting on the top of an armored car, legs in front I knew these guys had read too many "soldier of fortune" magazines and had zero actual tactical knowledge or experience.

A well trained fire team would roll through the police without breaking a sweat.

[C. S. P. Schofield]

Soldeir Of Fortune magazine is actually beter than that, though the losers who read it are not. SOF knows that if they get a single fact wrong they will get buried by all Right Thinking tm people.

Freed Reed , of fred on everything, wrote a hysterical magazine article aboit working for SOF, which (last time I checked) is on his site.

Highly recommended.

[ricbee]

True.

[wwhorton]

Kerik's right. It's not police that behave as a privileged class, abusing authority and treating their fellow citizens with all the scorn and contempt of defeated foes under occupation. It's pointing that out that's the problem.

[Ken Shultz]

Yeah, this all looks different to me.

What I'm seeing is people unifying against police brutality, against the Drug War, nationally, and in favor of dash cams and the cops wearing personal cameras. I'm seeing people starting to unify against everything from the militarization of the police, nationally, to people becoming disgusted with no-knock raids and indiscriminately shooting people's dogs. I'm seeing people start to unify in opposition to using the same prosecutors' offices that depend on police union endorsements to win elections to also indict bad cops...

But I guess if you're a former bureaucrat/stooge for the police unions, when you see the American people unifying against your program, it looks like America is being "ripped" apart.

[wareagle]

you are seeing rational people do the things you cite. But there are opportunists doing the things Kerik mentions. Unfortunately, he is ignoring the rational group and reinforcing his belief in bad tactics to deal with the rabble rousers.

[RussianPrimeMinister]

That would be because he is a lying, mendacious cunt.

[C. Anacreon]

How dare you say that about Professor Xavier? What did he ever do to you?
Perhaps he will sic Mystique from the next article on you.

[The Late P Brooks]

Bernie Kerik, imprisoned for accepting bribes? THAT Bernie Kerik?

Why the fuck should I give a shit what that worthless lying scumbag has to say?

[Notorious G.K.C.]

"The pigs railroaded me, man!"

[C. Anacreon]

"The bitch set me up!"

[bliss]

Bernie Kerik, imprisoned for accepting bribes? THAT Bernie Kerik?

Why the fuck should I give a shit what that worthless lying scumbag has to say?

Why should I be so suspicious of the criminal justice system? It worked in this case. A bad cop was brought to justice.

[Copernicus]

"has the potential to rip America at its seams"

Good. It's a long time coming.

And remind me again. How many cops have been ambushed in the entire nation? Is it 2? That many? Gosh... "war" seems like an understatement in that case.

/sarc

[Cynical in New York]

These cops and former cops whine like liberals do, its quite pathetic.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

The person responsible for this senseless murder was the man who pulled the trigger.

Both "victims" swore an oath to and gladly would have assaulted and kidnapped Brinsley for any number of harmless acts. Until cops stop enforcing victimless crimes, it's perfectly sensible.

[Brian D]

Preemptive self-defense is just as ridiculous an excuse for a non-cop as it is for a cop.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

So you'd change your tune if Brinsley had been walking by their car with a joint and waited until they tried arresting him?

What if, while leaving work, some lunatic threatened to shoot me for walking out the doors? I see a pile of coworkers' bodies outside. According to you I should either spend the night or wait until he pulls the trigger.

[Brian D]

Yes, self defense doesn't count until you're actually under attack.

[FUQ]

So if the guy next to me is shot I must wait for the bullet to hit head for me before I respond? BTW, I'm not justifying the previous posters thoughts that killing cops is self defense but waiting until I'm actually under attack in some cases is just as stupid.

[Brian D]

Pedantic troll is pedantic.

[Careless]

If that's what you're calling "pedantry," pedantry is a big deal and problem for your philosophy.

[Brian D]

Nope. Only someone without an ounce of common sense would consider themselves not to be under attack when someone standing next to them is shot. I expect the next pedantic horseshit "BUT WHAT IF?????" question to be "BUT WHAT IF SOMEONE SHOOTS AT YOU AND MISSES HUH???? THEN WHAT, SMART GUY?!?!?!?!?!?!????"

Yes, being under attack can mean not actually being injured in an attempted attack.

Dolt.

[FUQ]

You made the claim and now you're all butt hurt.

Sucks to be you

[Brian D]

My butt is just fine, thanks for your concern.

[Careless]

So now you're saying that an attack on someone near you is an attack on you and justifies a preemptive attack. And somehow, you still don't see how you're the one who's quibbling about definitions

[wareagle]

no, it's mostly the scare quotes around victims. The dead cops are that very thing. What they may have done is immaterial, nor does it justify their being killed. And if you want victimless crimes to go away, then talk to the political class since that is where those laws get passed.

[ricbee]

There are so many laws on the books that even the best intentioned cops cannot apply them as written.

[The Last American Hero]

While neither one deserved to be shot by a wacko vigilante, neither seems to have spoken up against stop and frisk, no knock raids or other constitutional violations that they and their colleagues engage in on a regular basis.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

x4rqcks3f v2.0,

you know Mary posted some of your shit on YouTube the other day. Her claim was that libertarians were calling for killing cops. In your case, I hate to admit, she was right.

These murders are by no means justified. There was no initiation of force and NO self defense. It was NOT "perfectly sensible" to kill someone sitting in their car. It was fucking murder.

If you want to push for reform of the laws and external forces enabling such actions, I'm with you. But I'm not, as a libertarian, going to sit here and let you condone murder on true libertarian's behalf.

So, shut the fuck up, you are doing nothing but giving the other side ammo. If you want to spew that bullshit, go somewhere else.

[FUQ]

This is why even PB must be responded to in some cases. Very well and rationally stated.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

The other side doesn't need any ammo. You don't fight back.

Every cop in this country has literally sworn to harm people for violating arbitrary laws that shouldn't exist. And almost every cop, except those fresh out of the academy, has done so. They no longer have rights.

You want to have a discussion about the practical aspects of fighting tyranny by killing cops? That'd be boring because I'd agree it's not practical. It's unfortunate that you're too scared to have a discussion about the ethics of killing cops though.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Practicality has nothing to fucking do with it. If you are claiming the cops initiate force because of the laws they enforce, fine, we can have the discussion on how to fix it.

That's not what you are doing. You are claiming that murdering cops is a legitimate "sensible" and measured response. That's like saying you should be able to shoot someone for throwing trash on your property. That makes you a crackpot nutjob and likely a sociopath.

So shut the fuck up. I don't want you being associated with me or my politics.

[RussianPrimeMinister]

You right, for the most part FdA, but there IS a caveat.

The thing is, eventually, either the police state will relent or the police state will double down and bury us.

If the latter happens, what are we supposed to do? At what point is open rebellion an allowable circumstance?

It's unfortunate, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and we can all see it coming. None of us know if it's the soft light of freedom or the harsh electric glow of cheap prison bulbs.

I think that protest is a good thing, especially when it's nationally televised. But protests have no teeth without a credible threat of violence. If our political leaders don't think that we'll push as hard as they will, they'll continue to ignore us forever.

So, my question is: At what point does the talk of open rebellion become acceptable?

[Francisco d'Anconia]

So, my question is: At what point does the talk of open rebellion become acceptable?

When you've exhausted all other methods.

The most effective "revolution" is a revolution of ideas. If you can peaceably convince the citizenry that your way is preferable. You will have a longer lasting revolution if people agree on it. And I think this is still possible. Our ranks are growing.

It escalates from there. Protests, legal action...

When all that fails...

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.- TJ

But I'm still qualifying my statements, as we are no where near that point.

[RussianPrimeMinister]

That's a well spoken response. I'll steal that, if'n you don't mind.

I just get frustrated sometimes. I'm very concerned that I won't see libertarian ideals become american policy within my lifetime.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Feel free.

I know. I'm almost 50 now. I'll at least be too old to enjoy it.

[GILMORE]

You're a fucking idiot.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

I never used the word measured. And I used the word "sensible" only in contrast to Epstein's "senseless". You don't have to advocate killing to believe it makes sense.

That's like saying you should be able to shoot someone for throwing trash on your property. That makes you a crackpot nutjob and likely a sociopath.

It's too bad that so many libertarians are such strong advocates of rights, but aren't willing to take the concept to its logical conclusion. I can ethically justify capital punishment for littering while simultaneously denouncing such punishment.

[Sevo]

"It's too bad that so many libertarians are such strong advocates of rights, but aren't willing to take the concept to its logical conclusion"

Yeah, real shame most of us have the ability to exercise judgement.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

take the concept to its logical conclusion

Logical conclusion? The only place killing people is the "logical conclusion" is inside your sociopathic brain.

There are countless ways to support liberty that don't involve killing people. And your idiocy is counter to all of them. Violence in support of rights is an ABSOLUTE last resort.

In case you haven't noticed, libertarian sentiment is growing. We don't need you shooting it in the foot by giving idiots like Mary Stack an ounce of legitimacy.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

Keep it going FdA.

/applause.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

Judgment would be refraining from a violent response even when one is justified. What too many are doing is overlooking the justification for fear of being judged.

[GILMORE]

You're a fucking idiot.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

The only place killing people is the "logical conclusion" is inside your sociopathic brain.

I was hoping for a rigorous argument.

There are countless ways to support liberty that don't involve killing people. And your idiocy is counter to all of them.

Indeed there are, all of which I advocate. But discussing the ethics of a response is never idiotic.

Violence in support of rights is an ABSOLUTE last resort.

In other words, you think killing is legitimate, counter to the impression you've given.

Mary Stack an ounce of legitimacy

If she could ever have an ounce of legitimacy then there is no hope and it hardly matters what I say.

[GILMORE]

No one cares because you're a fucking idiot.

[wwhorton]

I was hoping for a rigorous argument.

No you weren't, you pedantic little troll, you were dreading one.

[wwhorton]

You're not talking about the ethics of killing cops, you're talking about the ethics of cold-blooded murder.

The oath of office varies between localities, but generally it goes a.) defend and uphold the Constitution of the US, b.) defend and uphold the Constitution of the state, c.) follow lawful commands, d.) protect the rights, safety, and property of citizens, roughly in that order. Nowhere is there anything about killing people for disobeying. You cannot speak for all police any more than you can speak for all people in any walk of life, so you can't assume that every cop swears the oath above and crosses fingers during the "serve and protect" part.

If a cop swears that oath and then goes on to assault, kill, or otherwise fuck with someone believing that to be justified, that's a separate issue. That some police do bad things does not mean all police will do the worst things; general risk does not equal specific threat, and therefore does not justify a proactive "defense".

But to hell with the NAP and all that high-falutin shit. As a human being I cannot murder another person in cold blood. I know me. I can't do it. Can I kill someone in self-defense or to defend my family or friends, or a stranger for that matter? Yeah, not a problem. But I can't walk up behind someone I've never even seen before and murder them because they might turn bad some day.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

c.) follow lawful commands

=

assault, kill, or otherwise fuck with someone believing that to be justified

We'll never get anywhere until people realize that a cop arresting someone for smoking marijuana, carrying a gun, or video recording is exactly the same thing as their neighbor kidnapping them for wearing green shoes, eating carrots, or swimming.

[GILMORE]

"We'll never get anywhere"

Then fuck off and find some other people who think your idiotic false-equivalence bullshit is interesting.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

*Writes GILMORE's signature on the petition to outlaw green shoes, carrots, and pools.*

[GILMORE]

False-equivalence isn't less false via endless repetition.

[wwhorton]

Ok, cool. So I'm saying that if and when your neighbor tries to kidnap you or yours, feel free to shoot them right in the face. You're arguing that since Jeffrey Dahmer was someone's neighbor you should kill everyone who lives next to someone else, because neighbors kill people.

I'll leave the judgment of which approach is more in tune with the NAP and/or just generally not being a sociopath as an exercise for the reader.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

So I'm saying that if and when your neighbor tries to kidnap you or yours, feel free to shoot them right in the face.

Regardless of whether my neighbor is a cop?

You're arguing that since Jeffrey Dahmer was someone's neighbor you should kill everyone who lives next to someone else, because neighbors kill people.

Not sure where you got that. You might want to reread my post.

more in tune with the NAP and/or just generally not being a sociopath

Sociopathy and the NAP are not mutually exclusive.

[wwhorton]

I was using what's called an "analogy", you might want to look into that. I realize that you're not arguing in good faith, but for the edification of others who might be reading this while sniffing glue, I'll simplify.

The garden-variety collectivist believes that individual lives are worthless. He/she believes that worth and identity are derived solely through group membership. This is in part why collectivists worship the state, but it's also why they fear individual choice, for instance, and don't understand the concept of individual responsibility. They cannot fathom that humans act as individuals based on individual decisions, not at the behest of some group will. Hence your confusion.

You think "cop" is a species, not a job title. You assume that people are like machines; the idea that cops are people who make decisions and must be held accountable as individuals is as foreign to you as the idea that a toaster "chooses" to toast bread. I don't need to reread any of your posts because your perspective is, frankly, shit-simple. Although you have no problem assigning collective responsibility to police, you don't seem to feel the same compunction towards the politicians who have created the laws police enforce, or the judicial system that holds them to a lower standard. I also wonder whether you're familiar with the Oath Keepers, and whether you're as glib about murdering them.

And, since this is cutting into valuable drinking time, I'm out.

[darius404]

Beautiful, wwhorton. Thanks for spelling it out for the sociopath, though I don't think Son of Cytotoxic here will understand.

[RussianPrimeMinister]

I'm starting to think you're Mary.

[x4rqcks3f v2.0]

You think "cop" is a species, not a job title.

So I'm guilty of failing to qualify every post with "except for those 1 in 1000 cops who routinely violate oaths and disobey orders by refraining from unethical actions". Collectivism isn't always wrong. It's often useful shorthand.

I also wonder whether you're familiar with the Oath Keepers, and whether you're as glib about murdering them.

I'm aware of the Oath Keepers, though not the specifics of their cause. And their website is partially down, so I can't do much research. If they (among other things) refrain from enforcing victimless crimes then no, I wouldn't be glib about their murders. But if all they're doing is worshipping the first and second amendments then they might as well be the same "species" as all other cops.

[Ken Shultz]

"Kerik wrote that war has been "waged on our homeland" by anti-cop forces that "has the potential to rip America at its seams and cause damage far worse than any attack on our country, including that on 9/11/2001."

9/11 didn't "rip America" apart. 9/11 unified us in a way we weren't unified before. For a while, it seemed like every house and ever car in America was flying the American flag.

If anything about 9/11 "ripped America" apart, it was using 9/11 (Al Qaeda and anthrax) to justify invading Iraq. It was warrantless wiretapping, torture, holding American citizens without trial, assassinating American citizens abroad, the Patriot Act, the TSA: it was the inappropriate response of the authorities to 9/11--if anything--that ripped our new-found, post-9/11 unity apart.

[Adans smith]

911 became a way to scare people into giving up their rights and asses like this guy continue to do so. I still 911 should be treated like Hitler over reach.If you use the phrase you lose the debate

[Notorious G.K.C.]

You know who else talked about Hitler a lot?

[FUQ]

Almost everyone who makes an argument?

[Terc]

Heath and Deborah Campbell?

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Forgot about those two. Good one.

[Hillary's Clitdong]

Mr. Hilter?

[RussianPrimeMinister]

Wait wait. . .was it Hitler?

It was Hitler, wasn't it?

It's always Hitler.

[Adans smith]

911 became a way to scare people into giving up their rights and asses like this guy continue to do so. I still 911 should be treated like Hitler over reach.If you use the phrase you lose the debate

[Ken Shultz]

Fear is the mind-killer.

[RussianPrimeMinister]

Also spiders.

[Robert]

Yeah, I even saw an American flag with an American flag sticker on it.

Actually I just made that up.

[gaoxiaen]

Did it say "Made in America"?

[Adans smith]

and not a word about all the instances of abuse that are on the pages on hit and run.How many in the last week,month? Quite a few with video.How about the black NYC cops who complained about poor treatment when not in uniform,huh? Police abuse should be punished ,not excused as a very few.BTW,is a small par of the population that commits all crimes,and yet there's a war on crime.We need a war on police abuse also.

[Adans smith]

I should not have asked for a 'war',sorry people

[Adans smith]

Although,since they are government agents maybe a 'war' is needed,whoops,I'm on the list now.

[The Late P Brooks]

How about the black NYC cops who complained about poor treatment when not in uniform,huh?

I saw a Reuters article about that. I'm mildly surprised no black officers have been gunned down for carrying a pistol while off duty.

[adifferentken]

It has happened. This article doesn't mention race, but if you search for Omar J. Edwards, the officer, you can get further info.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05......html?_r=0

[The Late P Brooks]

Corruption and malfeasance by public officials should be capital crimes.

[mr lizard]

Your future reptilian overlords will soon teach you Stooopid mammals the true meaning of collective groupings...by flavor

[robc]

OT: this weeks econtalk is good. "I'm not trying to convince a Paul Krugman."

[Old Man With Candy]

If true, good. Our seams need some ripping. There's too much unification in the march down the serfdom road.

[The Late P Brooks]

Thank goodness! Sleazy cop-blowing cunt Heather MacDonald is on the case.

Since last summer, a lie has overtaken significant parts of the country, resulting in growing mass hysteria. That lie holds that the police pose a mortal threat to black Americans?indeed that the police are the greatest threat facing black Americans today.

Suck, Heather. Suck hard.

[wareagle]

the part you cited is a lie. The greatest threat facing certain black Americans today - the males between 18 and 35 - is other black males between 18 and 35.

That said, cops could go a long way toward gaining respect by remembering that "protect and serve" slogan on their cars. It's not code for harass and intimidate.

[Sam Haysom]

I love this. Correctly stating that a lie is a lie is considered cop-blowing. This has to be a symptom of blue balls.

[Zeb]

It may have just been a general observation about the author.

[RussianPrimeMinister]

Police pose a moral threat to EVERYBODY, not just black americans.

[wareagle]

it never dawns on cops that the reaction they are getting, be it reasoned or loony, stems from their own actions. PDs could go a long way toward gaining credibility by 1) taking active steps to police the shitbags within their ranks instead of justifying the worst of behavior, 2) saying "no, we really don't need armored personnel carriers", and 3) remembering that they are public servants, meaning they work for us and not the other way around. This "obey" fetish just pisses me off more than anything else short of innocent folks being killed and dogs getting shot.

[Sam Haysom]

It think it's a bit rich for libertarians to call for self introspection seeing as libertarianism is basically incapable of self-reflection. More to the point people support the police. Why on earth should they take advice from the least successful political movement possibly in our nations history? I mean the Anti-Masonic Party routinely elected officials to office.

If anything the risibly fast collapse of the "libertarian moment" might cause libertarians to you know ask themselves what they are doing wrong because what you guys are doing right now is in need of improvement.

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Thanks for your concern. As a libertarian, I'll get right on that.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

Thanks, Sam.

I think.

[Sevo]

And I'll bet Sam knows exactly what is to be done!
Spit it out, Sam; we all need a laugh now and then.

[C. Anacreon]

the least successful political movement possibly in our nations history

Funny, I see several politicians with libertarian philosophies in national office.

Oh, you mean the Libertarian Party? Please don't confuse libertarianism with that party or think it in any way represents libertarians.

[RussianPrimeMinister]

Oh, you mean the Libertarian Party? Please don't confuse libertarianism with that party or think it in any way represents libertarians.

This kills me, because it's true. And when you think about it, most republicans and democrats don't have an identity outside of their party afiliations. Might be why Sam gets so confused. The LP must be us, and we must be the LP, because that's how politics works, right?

[deepspeed]

Your Argumentum ad populum has destroyed my entire belief system. I have no choice but to prostrate myself before the state.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

rip.

America.

at.

its.

seams.

Scary stuff when the population refuses to live in tyranny. I have an idea:

1. Get rid of all laws punishing victimless crime.
2. Eliminate 90% of the pigs.
3. Get rid of immunity for law enforcement.
4. Eliminate all public service unions.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. -TJ

[Gene]

90%

Almost there, just another 9% to go.

[Suthenboy]

^This x 1000

[bliss]

2. Eliminate 90% of the pigs

...under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

I'm confused. One post you're condemning the shootings as murder and now your are calling for the "elimination" of 90% of the pigs accompanied by rhetorical justification. Make up your mind.

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Eliminate means fire them from their useless jobs. Eliminate the jobs. Thanks for playing, though.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Are you so ignorant that you believe the only way to throw off government is through violence?

I prefer to simply fire them.

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Well, Franky D'anky, I guess ignorance actually is "bliss".

*puts on sunglasses*
*Daltrey screams*

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Slow clap for you

[bliss]

Are you so ignorant that you believe the only way to throw off government is through violence?

Ugh! Are you part of the revolution or not? Can we count you in? Look, I know the first one is difficult but trust me, after the first it gets a whole lot easier.

[Old Man With Candy]

But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

...you say you want a revolution...come on altogether now!

[RussianPrimeMinister]

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[bliss]

What the fuck is wrong with you?

Me? Did you not see my screen name? There is nothing wrong with me. What about you? I know you suffering is greater than the others. Let me help you. Open your heart to me and you too will have bliss. Eternal bliss will come to all after Francisco d'Anconia's bloody revolution. I know you protest but there must be blood. Our feet must first wade in the blood of our foes, while the tongues of our dogs have their share before there is to be any real and lasting bliss.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

after Francisco d'Anconia's bloody revolution.

Are you retarded? English motherfucker, do you speak it?

Please cit where I've called for a bloody revolution? I've done EXACTLY, the opposite.

Claiming I have, doesn't make it so, but it does make you an idiot.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

cite

[bliss]

Please cit where I've called for a bloody revolution?

No, you have not directly stated it but it is clearly in the undertones of your post. We understand that you cannot be direct in such things, for now. I, however, am not as important to the movement and will serve as an interpreter for the masses to decipher the true meaning of your posts.

"Eliminate the pigs. Leave 10% to tell the story and harbingers of the coming revolution."

I will be your prophet.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Hello Mary.

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Mary Stack, does your husband know you are on the computer again? Take your meds and get out of his office and back to the living room.

[bliss]

Hello Mary

I know once accepted a member is given a name designated by you. I am very happy to have been accepted, and please understand that I am usually not one to complain, however, I really don't like this alias. If I am going to continue to be a part of the brotherhood I am going to have to insist on a better moniker.

[RussianPrimeMinister]

Holy freaking shit, is IS Mary.

Fuck, and I've been talking to it.

How do I get the stink out, guys? Is it like a skunk, and I just have to steel wool my skin?

[gaoxiaen]

Okay. Moniker Lewinsky.

[bliss]

It escalates from there. Protests, legal action...

When all that fails...

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.- TJ

Francisco d'Anconia I volunteer to be one of the "patriots". I am willing to swear allegiance and fidelity to the brotherhood and to its leader. Let us conduct the ceremony here and now:

(Raises right hand while simultaneously placing left hand on a copy of Atlas Shrugs)

RussianPrimeMinister: "You are prepared to cheat, to forge, to blackmail, to corrupt the minds of children, to distribute habit-forming drugs, to encourage prostitution, to disseminate venereal diseases ? to do anything which is likely to cause demoralization and weaken the power of the Party?"

bliss (aka Mary): "Yes."

RussianPrimeMinister: "If, for example, it would somehow serve our interests to throw sulphuric acid in a child's face ? are you prepared to do that?"

bliss (aka Mary): "Yes."

[RussianPrimeMinister]

Uh.

Um.

Er. . .

Huh.

I don't know how to respond to that. That's awful. What the fuck?

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I don't know how to respond to that.

Don't bother. It's Mary and it cannot be reasoned with. It has no legitimate argument against the NAP so she insists that libertarianism is something it's not.

She is batshit crazy and obsessed with this site and those who comment here. Quite literally, insane.

[bliss]

*Atlas Shrugged

I don't know how to respond to that. That's awful. What the fuck?

Been a while since you read 1984, huh?

[Sevo]

Batshit crazy.

[Alice Bowie]

Police Officers, Police Commissioners, and the families and friends and supporters that support Police Misconduct and Brutality are the ones that have the potential of Ripping America Apart.

Yes, there are many young black people that say "FUCK THE POLICE". They've been a victim of police for 100s of years.

However, must people that are critical of police misconduct and police brutality are not ANTI-POLICE, as the commissioner claims.

----

I support NY Attorney General on Governor Cuomo's promise to sign an EXECUTIVE ORDER that requires all Police misconduct to be investigated and prosecuted by special prosecutors under the State Attorney General and not the Local District Attorney.

Police claim that Eric Garner didn't die of suffocation (as claimed by NY Medical Examiner), but that he died due to being overweight and having Asthma. That it is not the Police Officer's fault.

That is like saying that It is not the Doctor's fault for amputating the left leg of a Diabetic requiring amputation of the right leg. That the doctor is not at fault since he has a stressful job. The real fault is the diabetic patient for having diabetes in the 1st place.

[wareagle]

Eric Garner died because NY's political class made a crime of selling cigarettes. And then, someone had to enforce that law. His death is senseless on any level one can imagine, from the "crime" itself, to the idea that 'stop resisting' becomes a good idea after a while, to officers being unable to cope with a citizen who was harming no one. But at the root, we have a moronic law that the political class put into place.

[Alice Bowie]

I agree with you.

I'm surprised NYC hasn't outlawed selling loose bottles of drinking water, as many homeless do on the streets and parks.

I'm a NYC person. I don't know why this is illegal.

I hate the Broken Window Policing Policy put in by Commissioner Bratton under Guiliani many years ago. This is the #1 thing that further destroyed the relationship between the poor communities and the police.

[wareagle]

I remember community policing initiatives from a past life in the news business. There were varying degrees of success, largely resting on the ability of the chief and his senior staff to grasp that their job was to serve the majority of law-abiding citizens who happened to be in high-crime areas.

The downside to this approach is that it is time- and labor-intensive, it requires actual effort and the instant gratification world where everything is politicized does not always have room for that.

[bliss]

Eric Garner died because NY's political class made a crime of selling cigarettes.

What if this was just an issue of zoning? I know there are alot of libertarians opposed to any zoning. I think it it quite conducive to a congenial community atmosphere to allow local citizens to democratically decide on regulations pertaining to marketplace transactions; specifically time and place.

With that being said, I believe his forceful removal, provided he did not voluntarily vacant, would have been justified for selling merchandise in a restricted zone.

[Sevo]

"I think it it quite conducive to a congenial community atmosphere to allow local citizens to democratically decide on regulations pertaining to marketplace transactions; specifically time and place."

Fuck off, slaver.

[bliss]

Fuck off, slaver.

Yeah, yeah , yeah, anarchy or else slavery. We already live under a constitution that is amended by a democratic process. It suddenly becomes slavery when it is applied at the local level? People are not completely rational. These arrangements are arrived at after thousands of years or trial and error. In the system I support you can have your "no rules" city. If your local anarchy town is successful then you will have imitators and it will snowball from there.

[Sevo]

Fuck off, slaver.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

DON'T RESIST (for selling loosies) YOU WILL NOT BE KILLED!

[bliss]

DON'T RESIST (for selling loosies) YOU WILL NOT BE KILLED!

Alright, so when all the prostitutes sell their wares outside of your home (public property exists in this scenario) because it is in a prime location or your neighbor decides to turn his property into a garbage dump I guess you just move. When the same thing happens at your next residence well, looks like you are moving again. Maybe you buy your neighbors property, right. Maybe your neighbor got such a good price that others in the neighborhood decide to follow suit. Maybe I'm just a dick and everywhere you go I will purchase the land next to you and make your residence unlivable, through sight, smell, or sound.

[Heroic Mulatto]

Alright, so when all the prostitutes sell their wares outside of your home (public property exists in this scenario) because it is in a prime location ... I guess you just move.

Who would give up such convenience?

[bliss]

Who would give up such convenience?

The whore store delivers so you still have the convenience.

[Heroic Mulatto]

The whore store

But I don't shop at Hot Topic.

[Sevo]

bliss|12.27.14 @ 2:04PM|#
"Alright, so when all the prostitutes sell their wares outside of your home (public property exists in this scenario) because it is in a prime location"

Ignorant shit, you left off ROADZZZZ!1!!1

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Because prostitutes would need to work the streets in a libertarian society, rather than set up a legitimate internet/phone based service.

The stupid burns.

[bliss]

Alright, so when all the prostitutes sell their wares outside of your home (public property exists in this scenario) because it is in a prime location

Instead of that how about a situation where streetwalkers solicit on the sidewalk in front of your brothel. What are the options of a shop owner?

[Rufus J. Firefly]

I doubt they'd come this far north in the suburbs.

[wwhorton]

...allow local citizens to democratically decide on regulations

And this, ladies and jelly spoons, is what in the business call a "tell".

[wwhorton]

Crap. Throw a "we" in there.

[EDG reppin' LBC]

There's been anti-police rhetoric since at least 1981, and the country seems to be doing just fine. Fuck these whimpering little pussy cops.

Black Flag: Police Story

And from across the pond The Clash: Guns of Brixton

[Andrew S.]

I'm stuck at my in laws house for another week. My father in law has gone on multiple rants about how everyone killed by police deserves it and a bunch of other slurs, and how great and awesome our police are. And there's no alcohol in this house either.

Maybe America needs to be ripped apart at its seams. It's broken and needs fixing. And assholes like Kerik are more proof than one could ever need as to how broken this system really is.

[Alice Bowie]

My neighbor yelled at me for my Facebook postings in which I support the Attorney Generals Push for an Executive order to have to take away the authority of Local DAs and the Police Internal Affairs from investigating police misconduct.

She says I make too much money and don't understand the hard work police do. This is her justification for giving the police a pass on criminal misconduct and negligence.

[FUQ]

"Honey, I'm sorry but we need to find a motel to stay at while we visit or I'm gonna kill your dad"

[wareagle]

you father in law's argument is no better informed than the opposite - that cops are always wrong, that every shoot is bad, and that they leave home each day looking for a scalp.

Cops are their own worst PR nightmare. When they refuse to weed out the criminals in their ranks, they tarnish the entire profession.

[Alice Bowie]

Once again, I agree with you.

But every time I tell people that I am not ANTI-COP and that we need to identify and address misconduct, people just bend the truth and weasel around what cops to do justify the misconduct.

I saw the Garner video, you can call it a choke hold or a take-down manuver, either way, the approach killed that guy.

And, Those Officers didn't witness or even get a call that Garner was selling loosies. The cops were there due to a fight that happened earlier and they just decided to start harassing Garner for something he was convicted in the past...simply because he had a pack of Newports.

That's like the police pulling me over once for speeding, and then harassing me every time when I'm not speeding.

[sarcasmic]

Once the police recognize you, they will harass you every time they see you. Without exception. They'll demand identification, run you for warrants, search you, and then if nothing comes up they will remind you that they're watching you and won't rest until you're in jail. If you argue or refuse any of their unlawful orders, they will gleefully arrest you. If you resist they will gleefully beat you senseless. If you continue to resist they will cheerfully kill you and then be the envy of the department. The only solution is to move out of their jurisdiction. That's just the way it is in the Land of the Free.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

God, Andrew.

Just. God.

Godspeed.

[Notorious G.K.C.]

On Car Talk, they have some car dealer with an accent - sounds like a thwarted vaudeville performer - with a long story and trying to find a home for a dog.

[Notorious G.K.C.]

I am somewhat suspicious about whether this guy is actually what he says.

[Sevo]

Maybe a riff on Cal Worthington?
" In these advertisements, he was usually joined by "his dog Spot," except that "Spot" was never a dog."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cal_Worthington

[EDG reppin' LBC]

Cal passed on to the great used car lot in the sky last year. A great American success story.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

His grandson does the commercials now. He sucks.

[Pl?ya Manhattan.]

Go see Cal

[Sevo]

Good ol' crazy Uncle Joe checks in:

"Biden: NY officers' deaths touched soul of nation"
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/.....srcref=rss

Joe, go get a drink and lie down on the couch. We'll wake you for the kickoff, I promise.

[The Late P Brooks]

you can call it a choke hold or a take-down manuver, either way, the approach killed that guy.

AND NONE OF THE OTHER COPS DID A FUCKING THING TO STOP IT.

Enemy combatants. In uniform.

[Whahappan?]

The worst part is the callous indifference of the cops as Garner lay dying.

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Time for your Saturday Catholic Church and Breasts story:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/v.....84?cmp=rss

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Safe and totally transparent!

http://www.lifenews.com/2014/1.....ign=buffer

[marry77479]

my friend's step-mother makes $73 every hour on the computer. She has been out of a job for 7 months but last month her pay was $7220 just working on the computer for a few hours. Read more on this web site

??????? w?w?w.p?a?y?f?l?a?m?e?.c?o?m?

[GILMORE]

"blaming Mayor de Blasio, Al Sharpton, or the recent spate of protests in New York for the actions of a deranged cop killer is nonsensical, and ironically the sort of argument more typically heard from media critics on the left..."

The other day I overheard some comment on Fox by someone to the tune of =

"This attitude is...helping to contribute...to an environment that enables... the context in which this sort of thing can occur"

...and i nearly puked.

People who boil down 'causation' to something so vague and ephemeral are simply trying to cast a rhetorical net that ensnares anyone who dared HAVE WRONG THOUGHTS. It spreads 'blame' everywhere. Anything that 'participated in the process' is now complicit. Its almost Soviet in its totalitarian presumptions that we can not allow a difference of opinion on this matter. It pretends that no matter how reasonable and civil their opponent may be that lurking beneath their words is the same germ of evil that drove some lunatic to murder.

Its fucking lame.

[Hillary's Clitdong]

People who boil down 'causation' to something so vague and ephemeral are simply trying to cast a rhetorical net that ensnares anyone who dared HAVE WRONG THOUGHTS.

Uh, yeah. On that note, I've always loved the "stochastic terrorism" meme that DailyKos and other lefty blogs were trying to peddle after Gabbie Giffords got her brains scambled. Same shit, but it appeals to people who need their totalitarian apologias to sound sciency.

[The Late P Brooks]

Its almost Soviet in its totalitarian presumptions that we can not allow a difference of opinion on this matter.

The head of the NYPD union said pretty much explicitly that free speech (AGAINST cops) should be banned, due to the plain causality of protests in the killing of the two cops in Brooklyn.

[EdWuncler]

I was at work the other day and some CPD officers came into the store and ordered food. Usually, they got discounts but no one was willing to do it because of the protests. Anyway, a coworker got angry that no one wanted to give them a discount but I countered by telling them that this is the exact problem. We put the cops on this ridiculous ass pedestal like they are to be reverenced when in reality they are doing what they are fucking paid to do. And then one can even argue if they are doing their jobs well. Anyway, I'm tired of cop hero worship when all they do now is perpetuate a system of injustice against the very people they are sworn to protect.

[Hyperion]

they are doing what they are fucking paid to do

We are paying them to beat down and murder the citizenry, shoot pets, and find 'legal' ways to steal peoples stuff?

[EdWuncler]

Sadly, we are.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

Yeah. Never got the 'free stuff' pass. They get paid well and have great pensions...paid for by taxpayers.

The 'I give them free coffee because I may need them when I'm in trouble' line makes no sense. As if a free coffee will prevent them from doing their, you know, JOB.

[Sevo]

Rufus J. Firefly|12.27.14 @ 1:46PM|#
"Yeah. Never got the 'free stuff' pass. They get paid well and have great pensions...paid for by taxpayers."

Pretty sure most places see it as a minor bribe. Some vig keeps the cops from busting you if, say, someone walks in to the deli with a dog.

[Ken Shultz]

"Yeah. Never got the 'free stuff' pass."

The reason doughnut shops (and others) used to give cops free coffee, etc. was to encourage them being seen a lot there--especially if it was a business that was open a lot at night.

When the crooks know the cops frequent a place, they tend to avoid robbing the place at gunpoint. If you're robbing a place with the understanding that you're going to be able to get away before the cops show up, you don't want to rob a place that the cops may already be on the way to for their free coffee.

Giving away free coffee to cops in a place that might get robbed is like buying the benefit of armed guards--for the cost of coffee.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

I get it.

But still.

I guess it IS a bribe of sorts.

[Heroic Mulatto]

It's either that or jus primae noctis, so the coffee is a good deal.

[Hyperion]

The fuzz don't need to worry, their 2 best friends, the GOP and the Democratic Party of Murika have their backs.

Team Blue will make sure this is all about racism so the focus is never on the real issue.

Team Red will frantically proclaim that our noble heroes in blue are under attack and that all good Murikans have to respect authoritah or else anarchy!

The thugs will grow more thuggish and their 2 protectors will carry on in the fashion described above to make sure nothing stops the thuggish behavior or even slows it down.

[Sam Haysom]

Yea it sucks being a tribalist for a shitty tribe doesn't. Thing is you picked the shitty little libertarian tribe.

[EdWuncler]

derp

[Old Man With Candy]

Yea it sucks being a tribalist for a shitty tribe doesn't.

It sucks even worse to be unable to write a coherent sentence.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

No one does tribalism better than the left.

NO ONE.

[wwhorton]

Oh, Sam. Sam sam sam. Go play with your Legos and let the adults talk in peace.

[Sevo]

Sam Haysom|12.27.14 @ 1:09PM|#
"Yea it sucks being a tribalist for a shitty tribe doesn't."

Sam, do you have 'anger issues'? Are you envious of those who choose to be moral agents instead of infantile lefties?
Did your mom cut you off breast-feeding before you were ready and now you gotta suck the public teat?
More simply, were you born an asshole, or did it take many years of practice to become one?

[RussianPrimeMinister]

HEY. Hey. Hey, now. Whoa whoa whoa.

I'm an asshole. Don't lump me in with him.

[SusanM]

Team Red will frantically proclaim that our noble heroes in blue are under attack and that all good Murikans have to respect authoritah or else anarchy!

And in the next breath (or the previous one) will tell you that they love limited government.

[Francisco d'Anconia]

"Limited" to the stuff they approve of.

[Ted S.]

And the media will suck up to them to gain access.

[sarcasmic]

Silly libertarians just don't understand that any criticism of anything the police do is not only anti-police, but anti-American. You're not allowed to criticize your betters. Just because policing doesn't make the top ten most dangerous jobs doesn't mean it's not the most dangerous job in the country. Stupid facts don't matter. They say it is dangerous so it must be dangerous. They're cops. They can't lie. They're incapable. They're like George Washington and the cherry tree. Everything that they do is justified because their job is so dangerous. Fucking libertarians. Questioning your betters. Who the fuck do you think you are?

[JeremyR]

Or they are just being stupid. Take your pick.

One of the central tents of libertarianism is property rights.

Who is going to protect property rights? The police.

Given a chance, a good portion of the people in this world will loot, steal, and kill.

There's plenty to criticize the police about - the war on drugs, shady traffic laws. But in most of these cases, it was cops responding to complaints from citizens. Which is exactly what their job should be.

[Sevo]

JeremyR|12.27.14 @ 6:06PM|#
..."One of the central tents of libertarianism is property rights.
Who is going to protect property rights? The police."

Therefore ROADZZZ!
Fuck off.

[The Late P Brooks]

One of the Brooklyn NYPD Holy Martyrs is getting his State Funeral, today. What do we suppose would happen if small peaceful groups of protesters along the way turned their backs to the procession as it passed?

[Ted S.]

Tell your cop-sucking friends that non-cop murder victims ought to get such extravagant funerals, too, and have fun watching the reaction.

[SusanM]

They might feel bad for giving them the idea

http://nypost.com/2014/12/27/c.....t-funeral/

As Mayor Bill de Blasio took the podium Saturday at the funeral of P.O. Rafael Ramos, thousands of police officers in the streets watching video of the service inside turned their backs, in unison, to the monitors.

[Rhywun]

Saw that. The Warrior Class is just going to double down on this, I guess. I wonder if this is going to quiet down, or get really ugly.

[RussianPrimeMinister]

It's NEW YORK. Ugly would be an improvement.

[Rhywun]

It's my home. I would really rather see this lead to reform rather than any of the disturbing outcomes I can imagine if the cops don't get off their pedestal.

[GILMORE]

In a battle between the shadow-government unions, and the shitty-union-crony De Blasio, I am going to root for the guy who'se getting paid to fly around the city with a banner saying, "FUCK ALL OF YOU"

"A coalition of retired NYPD cops took their anger to new heights Friday by hiring a pilot to fly across the cities skies for hours with the sign, "De Blasio, Our Backs Have Turned To You.""

I mean, at least its funny.

[Rhywun]

Enh, I'm struggling to find anything funny about the whole situation. At least there's Soviet-style black humor to look forward to in the coming police state.

[GILMORE]

"the coming police state."

With stop-and-frisk peaking in 2012, and Bloomberg getting a 10% reduction in the budget around the same time, I think the NYC police-state has already come and is possibly on the wane.

That is, unless crime spikes like it did in the 1980s and the Hipsters start deciding that Brooklyn isn't worth Gentrifying anymore.

[Rhywun]

I think the NYC police-state has already come and is possibly on the wane

I wish I could be that optimistic. Consider that we still have around 35,000 cops and a lot of them have little or nothing to do.

[GILMORE]

"Consider that we still have around 35,000 cops "

Consider that we had 55,000 only about 7-8 years ago. Bloomie managed to (barely) squeeze some concessions out of them. However, i think they've drawn the line. The whole stop/frisk bullshit was really just their 'justifying their existence'-program. They'll think up something new. God forbid they actually legalize weed though. That would freak them the fuck out. If anything the current fight w/ the mayor is actually 50% related to the eric garner protests etc., and the rest is them planting a flag and saying, "No More Concessions". They'll win, too.

[userve32]

Sounds like some crazy smack dude.

http://www.AnonWayz.tk

[Paul.]

"[New York City] Mayor de Blasio, [Al] Sharpton and others like them...have blood on their hands," former NYPD Commissioner Bernard Kerik told FOX News immediately following the execution-style murder of two cops on December 20th.

Sez the guy who literally has blood on his hands.

[Rhywun]

Well, one of them does literally have blood on his hands so Kerik is technically correct about Sharpton, at least.

[Winston]

Al Sharpton is "anti-Cop" in the same sense that Hitler was anti-Cop because he didn't like them stopping the Beer Hall Putsch or the SA.

[JeremyR]

Meanwhile in St. Louis, a "peace" activist has been charged with trying to set a QuikTrip on fire

http://www.stltoday.com/news/l.....dbbcb.html

[GILMORE]

Society did that! Institutional oppression! Also, he was just trying to stay warm on a cold winter night.

[Notorious G.K.C.]

He wanted to roast chestnuts on an open fire.

[GILMORE]

Maybe he was working on his boy scout merit badge.

[Winston]

Man, Bill de Blasio and Al Sharpton vs. the NYPD. Can they all lose?

[The artist known Dunphy]

Kerik rocks. I referenced his article right after it came out

here's a hint, since Journalists and anticop bigots are in the rarefied few that don't understand that suspension and admin leave are TOTALLY different

when on admin leave (at least in the three agencies i have worked), you are STILL (technically) working and getting paid. You are given work HOURS when you must have your dept cell phone available and answer it if dispatch or your supervisor calls. Usually, you keep the same furlough days, but they may change those, but either way you have a SCHEDULE

obviously, you can't drink during duty hours, or leave the jurisdiction

duh

ENTIRELY different from suspension. While on suspension, you are SEPERATED from the agency. you don't have to have your dept. cell phone at all. heck, they may TAKE IT while you are suspended, just like your gun, badge, ID card, etc.

you have no schedule. you aren't getting paid, thus you dont have to be sober at any time /available for work, answer the phone at all, etc.

[The artist known Dunphy]

it is a PUNISHMENT. admin leave is not

period. full stop

people are placed on admin leave for a metric assload of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with any sort of investigation whatsoever.

suspension also triggers due process rights, etc. admin leave does not. heck, suspension triggers PROPERTY rights (see: loudermill etc.) since courts have ruled we have a "property right" to our job.

they are entirely different

no cop has ever been suspended with pay -iow, he has no schedule and furlough, he is completely seperated from the agency for the period of suspension , he has no work schedule NOR no work RESPONSIBILITIES.

an officer on suspension can go to canada if he wants

unless an officer gets special permission they certainly cant jaunt up to canada during a work day during admin leave

again, DUH

legal dictionary gets it
scotusblog gets it
wikipedia gets

anticop bigots and some journalists - don't

want to understand why polling data routinely shows the american public places journalists near the lowest rung in terms of respect and perceived professionalism?

it's stuff like journalists either intentionally or unintentionally (often i suspect it's the former, but in cases of extreme stupidity it's the latter) saying an officer on admin leave is on "paid suspension"

it's utter shit n stuff man!

we are winning by the way

[The artist known Dunphy]

Feds often work with local cops on task forces

When I applied, since we had to work under fed supervisors and were considered as quasi SA's and given concurrent jurisdiction, we had to pass federal security screen

One of the questions

1) have you ever been placed on suspension and if so, why?

No, officers who had been placed on ADMIN LEAVE did not answer yes BECAUSE IT IS NOT A SUSPENSION

it is non disciplinary, often completely unrelated to any sort of conduct issue AND we retained duty hours, furlough days etc. SINCE WE WERE NOT SUSPENDED while on AL

SUSPENDED OFFICERS have no duty responsibilities ever...

AL OFFICERS must comply with various regs that apply only to those currently working and not SUSPENDED

HTH

[FUQ]

Posting this in every thread wont help your case. You have been brutally beaten up on this issue.

SMOOCHES

[FUQ]

this

[PRX]

we are winning by the way

what does losing look like?

[Notorious G.K.C.]

What, you don't want "exposed breasts nativity scene" on your search history?

[Terc]

Thanks for this blast from the past. Sadly, I was stuck in south Florida in the 80s and had to witness all this wonderful music from afar. Didn't know that bit about Dave Pirner.

[seguin]

I'm surprised South Florida didn't have a decent scene.

[Terc]

It was alright, but I think it was hard for bands with a national following to get down there. I lived 9 hours south of Atlanta. If a band was touring in an old van, I doubt it made much financial sense to drive all the way down to play a show, only to have to drive right back the way you came. By the mid 80s though, we began to get all the big acts (Circle Jerks, The Meatmen, etc) in Miami in an old movie theater. The Cameo? Richard Shelter was the name of the guy who organized the shows. I think.