Big Daddy
The government should let parents regulate their children's entertainment.
When it comes to monitoring their children's media diets, some parents worry about sex, while others worry about violence. I worry more about inane sitcoms featuring smart-alecky kids and dumb adults, which is why I have blocked the Disney channel.
Different parents have different standards, and the same parents are likely to have different standards for different children, depending on their age, maturity, and personality. Because of this diversity, policies that aim to bolster parental authority by restricting minors' access to material the government deems inappropriate, such as the California video game law that the Supreme Court overturned this week, would be doomed to fail even if they did not violate the First Amendment.
California's law made selling or renting a "violent video game" to a minor a civil offense punishable by a $1,000 fine. It covered games "in which the range of options available to a player includes killing, maiming, dismembering, or sexually assaulting an image of a human being," depicted in a way that "a reasonable person, considering the game as a whole, would find appeals to a deviant or morbid interest of minors," that is "patently offensive to prevailing standards in the community as to what is suitable for minors," and that "causes the game, as a whole, to lack serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for minors."
The thing about reasonable people, of course, is that they may disagree, especially on such abstruse issues as whether a video game appeals to a minor's "deviant or morbid interest," whatever that might be. "Prevailing standards in the community," which determine what is "patently offensive," are likewise a matter of dispute. Pretending that everyone in California agrees about "what is suitable for minors," or sees eye to eye on the redeeming value of violent entertainment, does not make it so.
The one thing all parents probably do agree on is that teenagers should not be treated like toddlers. Yet that is what California's legislators decided to do, decreeing one (indeterminate) standard for everyone under 18. The industry's game ratings, by contrast, draw six distinctions based on age and use 30 "content descriptors" to indicate the nature of potentially objectionable material.
Since parents can use these ratings to regulate what their children play (and can even use system settings to block games with certain ratings), what was the motivation for California's law? "California cannot show that the Act's restrictions meet a substantial need of parents who wish to restrict their children's access to violent video games but cannot do so," the Supreme Court concluded.
"Not all of the children who are forbidden to purchase violent video games on their own have parents who care whether they purchase violent video games," Justice Antonin Scalia noted in the majority opinion, questioning the premise that "punishing third parties for conveying protected speech to children just in case their parents disapprove of that speech is a proper governmental means of aiding parental authority." He suggested that the main effect of the law was to enforce "what the State thinks parents ought to want"—the opposite of respecting parental authority.
On the same day the Court overturned California's video game law, it agreed to consider a First Amendment challenge to the federal ban on broadcast indecency, another policy that imposes government-determined standards of propriety in the name of helping parents protect their children. It features the same sort of constitutionally problematic vagueness and subjectivity yet applies to adults as well as minors, banning "patently offensive" material related to sex or excretion between 6 a.m. and 10 p.m.
Like California's law, which arbitrarily distinguished between video games and other forms of violent entertainment, the indecency ban is "wildly underinclusive," applying to broadcast TV and radio but not to programming carried by cable, satellite, or the Internet. In both cases the solution is not to expand the government's cultural regulations but to privatize them by letting people raise their own children.
Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason and a nationally syndicated columnist.
© Copyright 2011 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
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My first computer was a TI-99 and had one Treasure Island themed text. And I was glad to have it.
The content of the vast majority of games is no worse than what's on TV so let the kids play.
s/b text adventure game
When I was a kid the video games were lame. So me and my friends were outside having fun and generally making mischief and tearing stuff up like young men often do. If we had had access to the really kick ass video games like they have today, we would have caused a lot less trouble in the real world. I look at violent video games as a wonderful and safe outlet for young male aggression.
Especially now that all the physical outlets like dodgeball are banned in most schools.
Waxin' the carrot always works for me.
"Especially now that all the physical outlets like dodgeball are banned in most schools."
Citation needed.
Here ya go http://tinyurl.com/3em6v8d
Here and here and many others. Google is your friend.
MNG, do you live under a rock?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/h.....bans_x.htm
it was banned to protect the childrunz!!!1!1!one!!
Er, I hope I am the only one who does not see a pretty big different between these two assertions:
"Dodge ball has been out at some schools for years"
and
"all the physical outlets like dodgeball are banned in most schools"
Hint: Most > some
Yeah.
all the physical outlets like dodgeball are banned in most schools
"Most"? As in more than 50%? Where is your proof to support such a sweeping pronouncement?
And dodge ball is played only in schools? Who is preventing the kids from playing dodge ball on their own time and property (as if they are really clamoring for it)?
Tip: Public does not mean private.
Most schools are public, and if Johnny gets huwt pwaying dawgebwaw in a pubwic skwewel someone's gonna get sued.
Hence, no more dodgeball.
Hence, no more dodgeball.
Again, who or what is preventing The Children? from playing dodge ball on their own time and property? When you have an answer that hasn't been pulled out of your ass, get back to me.
Context. Ever heard of it?
I understand some places have banned dodge ball, but I have not seen it shown that most have.
All=most=some to Kareless Konservative Kommandoes.
Read the post I was responding to. Physical outlet for male aggression, not just a physical outlet. I will qualify it and say most because of football, wrestling, etc.
"All=most=some to Kareless Konservative Kommandoes."
In other words, you were wrong about dodgeball and decided pedantry would be better than admitting you were wrong.
Except you were wrong about that too.
Er, so you want to argue that most=some? Be my guest.
Some is a subset of most.
Venn diagram or it didn't happen!
Some is a subset of most
And not the other way around. Which proves MNG's point.
Forget it, he's too stupid to get that without it being acted out via puppets.
"Er, so you want to argue that most=some?"
Nope. Learn to read.
I was a Commodore 64 guy - though I wasted plenty of hours on PETs, Vic20s, TI99s and yes, even Atari's 1200XL.
When I go back via an emulator and replay some of those old games, I can only think "I spent all those hours playing THAT?!?!"
Thankfully when I hit 15, I got interested in girls, beer and muscle cars.
I remember many happy hours wasted playing M.U.L.E., Murder on the Zinderneuf, and the various AD&D titles on the C64
M.U.L.E. rocked.
I believe a revamp is in order.
Live protests at ?u??????? Square in Athens for anyone interested: http://www.dailymotion.com/vid.....yy-1y_news
... and the austerity measures just passed which means Europe can continue to extend and pretend for the short term.
Thanks for the link. Live video here too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13954989
Can you blame Arnie for banning violent video games for children? He knew he couldn't monitor his children's media in two households.
He was just being a good parent 🙁
I have blocked the Disney channel
nice
Are all the state's righters here outraged at the SCOTUS upending yet another state law, or is this yet another instance of: State's Rights, Great Idea, Except When it Isn't!
That whole 14th Amendment incorporation doctrine is just a bitch. I know you are trying to be a smart ass. But you really are not that stupid are you? You don't seriously think that the choices are "states rights" or "no incorporation doctrine" do you?
States should do what they want, provided they don't violate the Bill of Rights. What is so hard about that for you to understand?
"States should do what they want, provided they don't violate the Bill of Rights. What is so hard about that for you to understand?"
Oh, so State's should do what they want, except where they shouldn't.
And you were asking me if I understand?
"Oh, so State's should do what they want, except where they shouldn't.
And you were asking me if I understand?"
Yeah. It is called principles. We have a constitution, it restrains the acts of government. So, yes, governments should do what they want, except where the Constitution says they can't. It baffles me that you would find that concept so difficult.
Except that saying that the BoR, which covers a quite extensive area and was not historically meant to apply to the States, is meant to restrict the States as applied by federal courts is not only historically anathema to those who held themselves out as for State's Right's it's conceptually nonsense, essentially as I mocked it "State's Rights, Great Except Where it Isn't." EVERYONE would leave shit they could care little about to the States.
You are just an idiot MNG. And you are too bull headed to even realize how stupid you are. The issue is and always has been what parts of the BOR are applicable to the states under due process. Not even the most liberal think all of it is. And not even the most conservative think none of it is. No one but the voices inside your head speaks in such absolutes.
"Not even the most liberal think all of it is."
Lord, you are one of the most ignorant, careless debaters here. Justice Black was one of many liberals who was for "Total Incorporation" (google it) for example.
"And not even the most conservative think none of it is."
Wrong yet again. Franck and Berger for example have said this.
I remember from my American Government class last semester on how the BoR,initially applied to the federal gov but was then seen how idiotic it was for the BoR to only apply to the fed gov. Thus the supremacy clause was reinterpreted and BoR was imposed across all state lines. And MNG, no one is arguing that this is a states right issue, it's an issue that does violate free speech.
His point is that the federal constitution puts constraints on the federal government, and the tenth amendment means that the states are not bound by the preceding nine. Congress is, but the States are not.
Those amendments mean the federal government may not force states to, for example, ban guns, but any state may ban guns on its own (assuming the state's constitution does not protect the peoples' right to keep and bear arms).
Only after the War Between the States was the federal government able to tell the states what laws they may or may not pass.
Before the war the states were free to violate the federal constitution because those restrictions on power applied to Congress, not the States.
That was before the 14th Amendment. After the 14th Amendment some of the BOR applied to the states. What that means is the debate.
His argument is that if you support states' rights then you should oppose the 14th.
I think he's got a point.
I oppose the incorporation of the 14th. California's Declaration of Rights in its Constitution forbids this video game bill though. I can see that John is arguing from the current interpretation of incorporation doctrine and not necessarily his personal opinions (I think).
"Oh, so State's should do what they want, except where they shouldn't."
MNG, here's the states' rights doctrine:
The feds can't do anything except those things which are explicitly ascribed to them in the constitution, and they can't violate the bill of rights while doing those things.
States can do anything that doesn't violate the Bill of Rights or interfere with legitimate federal powers, so long as their own constitution allows it.
I suppose I don't have to add that states' rights advocates of idea "enumerated powers" doesn't recognize the commerce clause as a blank check, nor does it recognize general welfare as a "power", for this purpose.
"and they can't violate the bill of rights while doing those things"
This is your problem: traditionally conservative advocates of state's rights have pointed out that the 14th does NOT explicitly say this, they would NOT hold the state's bound by the BoR. I submit this is because they know that it pretty much reduces State's Rights to "great except when it isnt."
Gotta run, back in a few.
The feds can't do anything except those things which are explicitly ascribed to them in the constitution, and they can't violate the bill of rights while doing those things.
States can do anything that doesn't violate the Bill of Rights or interfere with legitimate federal powers, so long as their own constitution allows it.
I think this is correct. Asserting that the Bill of Rights applies equally to the states as it does to Congress is different than saying that federal law should always trump state law. The idea is that the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights comes from an even higher place than federal law and are therefore not federal law, they're natural law.
The Constitution. Have you read it?
It is nice to see conservatives finally sign on to incorporation though. But likely this is yet another case of movement conservatives not knowing WTF their movement has held for most of its existence...
"It is nice to see conservatives finally sign on to incorporation though"
Citation for a conservative post 1960 who doesn't sign on to incorporation?
How about the work of, well, pretty much every major conservative legal theorist of the last few decades (Ed Whelan, Robert Bork, Matthew Franck, Raoul Berger, Walter Berns).
Wow, you really don't know jack about your own movement, do you?
They objected to certain aspects of incorporation not the entire concept. Everyone agrees that the 14th Amendment incorporates some of the bill of rights. They just don't agree on what parts. And all of them would agree on the 1st Amendment being one of those parts.
I know plenty about the "movement". But the movement I know is the one that exists in the real world as opposed to in the voices inside my head.
"They objected to certain aspects of incorporation not the entire concept."
Citation needed. The one's I read thought that at a maximum perhaps the 14th preserved some area of "fundamental liberties." They thought the idea that the BoR applied through the 14th, especially through the Due Process clause, as laughable ("Justice Black's folly" one called it).
"And all of them would agree on the 1st Amendment being one of those parts."
That's flatly wrong, at least two on that list explicitly have opposed that idea.
"the voices inside my head."
I've long known you have voices inside your head John, I've seen you debate them at length before. But it is nice to see you admit it.
"They thought the idea that the BoR applied through the 14th, especially through the Due Process clause, as laughable ("Justice Black's folly" one called it)."
Citation needed. Again reality not the people who live in your head.
I cited you numerous prominent conservative legal scholars who rejected selective incorporation, much less total incorporation. Do try to keep up.
But let's recap on what you have been shown, by citation, in this debate to be flatly wrong about.
1. That many conservative legal scholars have poo-pooed incorporation.
2. That no liberal wanted total incorporation.
3. That no conservative wanted no incorporation.
You're racking them up again John.
MNG no one can win an argument with your imagination.
Haha, you're demonstrably wrong about most of your assertions, ignorant of your own professed movement's positions on things you argue about, and you admit you talk to the voices in your head.
"the movement I know is the one that exists in the real world as opposed to in the voices inside my head."-John @ 8:47
It's not so much that he's stupid, he just has no concept of what it means to have principles.
States Rights, Great Idea, except when they overstep the confines of the constitution.
That latter part is the part he simply cannot comprehend.
I understand, that is just veeeery far from being a supporter of State's Rights. Essentially you are saying "I support State's Rights, except for a slew of very important issues where I support federal standards over state ones"
It is called making distinctions you dimwit. Not every position must be absolutist.
If you want to make distinctions, make them, but don't call yourself a State's Righter when what you really support is a robust federal standard and policing of state policy making.
Just shut the fuck up. I mean seriously. You pick a term you don't like "states rights" and then define it to mean something completely absurd and extreme that no one actually believes in. And then tell everyone that they either have to abandon the term and say they agree with you or agree to your absurd definition of it. That is sorry even for you.
I'm using the term as it has historically been used. People who argued for State's Rights were and are horrified at the incorporation doctrine and its results. You just want a special definition that allows you to have your State's Right's cake and eat it too.
You've made no argument, pointed to no evidence that historically your position is one held by conservatives advocating state's rights, while I've pointed to numerous counter examples. You don't because you can't, you are ignorant of your own movement. Sheesh.
That's actually not it at all.
The concept of states' rights applies to the position that the federal government should not assume powers not granted to it in the Constitution and reserved to the states.
The concept of incorporation refers to the position that the states cannot violate the rights of US citizens enumerated in the Constitution.
Extending the enumerated rights of citizens down to the states really doesn't have anything to do with the issue of whether the federal government possesses powers not specifically enumerated in the Constitution or whether those powers belong to the states. They're completely separate issues.
The 14th Amendment was RATIFIED by the states, remember. The amendment process includes the states. The very act of incorporation was itself, therefore, undertaken by the states (in part) as one of the powers of the states under the Constitution.
These aren't contradictory, and really do not in any way mean that someone is randomly picking issues to support the states on and randomly picking issues to support the federal government on.
Some conservatives have argued that the ratification of the 14th was improperly done. But more to the point, the 14th did not say anything about applying the BoR to the States. It just said states had to apply due process of law, equal protection and P&I. Conservative legal theorists in the past and present who advocated state's rights have argued that those are much, much narrower than incorporation of most, some or any of the BoR.
Not every conservative denies substantive due process MNG. I don't know why you think they must.
Nice distinction Fluff.
There is a difference between the states overreaching their power in violation of restraints put upon government by the federal constitution, and the federal government imposing things upon the states through legislation and regulation.
Opposing those impositions in the name of "state's rights" does not mean one must also oppose restraining state governments in the name of "state's rights".
MNG is conflating the two.
There is a difference between the states overreaching their power in violation of restraints put upon the STATE governments by the federal constitution.
FTFY, and you should be able to see the problem there. Whether the arbogation of state decision making is done by federal statute or federal courts enforcing the federal Constitution it is conceptually difficult for one to say they are for state's rights and that at the same time. It's like saying "I'm againt big government but OK with the New Deal."
There is a difference between states being forced to do something by federal statute, and states being stopped from doing something by constitutional limitations.
One can oppose, say, NCLB on "states' rights" principle because it imposes something onto the states, while not opposing this court ruling in the name of "states' rights".
But this court's ruling imposes is a case of a federal court imposing a federal provision on a state's decision just as surely as NCLB is.
In fact, at least with NCLB you can say the state had representation in the federal body imposing its will on the state, here you can't even say that.
How does the state have representation?
The 17th Amendment stripped the state governments of any representation in Washington.
"The 17th Amendment stripped the state governments of any representation in Washington."
That's absurd. The 17th Amendment just made it so the state's reps in DC were selected by the actual people instead of by state pols. Given that the libertarian position is usually that the people know what's best for them better than pols that should be seen as a good thing.
"The 17th Amendment just made it so the state's reps in DC were selected by the actual people instead of by state pols."
That's what I said. It stripped the state governments i.e. legislatures of any representation in Washington.
The people have representation in Washington. It's called the House of Representatives. Heard of it?
The purpose of the Senate being chosen by the state governments instead of the people was to be a check on federal power.
Do you honestly believe that legislation like NCLB and Obamacare would have made it through a Senate that answered to the state governments tasked with implementing the legislation?
I don't.
Do you understand the difference between forbidding something (no you can't do this) and mandating something (yes you must do this)?
Your argument is that if one opposes the federal government mandating that the states do something like NCLB, that they must also oppose the federal government striking down a law on constitutional grounds.
It is a false equivalency.
"Do you understand the difference between forbidding something (no you can't do this) and mandating something (yes you must do this)?"
Yes. Do you understand that is not much relevant to the State's rights debate? State's Rights has never been about State's Rights to resist federal mandates alone, it has been about their right to make their own decisions despite federal mandates or restrictions. Also, imposing federal constitutional standards can involve mandates on state governments (see the recent 8th Amendment case regarding California's prisons, or Gideon v. Wainwright, etc) as well as restrictions.
"Do you understand that is not much relevant to the State's rights debate?"
Only if you insist on framing it that way so you can accuse those who support holding state governments to the confines of the Constitution but oppose the federal government giving orders to the states of not really supporting states rights.
MNG: But this court's ruling imposes is a case of a federal court imposing a federal provision on a state's decision just as surely as NCLB is.
So now the Constitution and BOR are now mere federal provisions just like laws like NCLB?
Wow was I wrong about how the law, federal government, and Constitution work.
The Constitution is federal law, it even refers to itself as the law of the land.
What a fucking moron. Sarcasmic and Fluffy fucked your shit up pretty well, so I'll just add a few things.
Ever heard of Article Four, Section 4, Clause 1? No? Well, here you go:
"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, . . ."
The federal government MAY NOT assume powers that are not expressly delegated to it by the Constitution, and states MAY NOT violate constitutional standards and rights
"Article Six establishes the Constitution, and the laws and treaties of the United States made according to it, to be the supreme law of the land, and that "the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the laws or constitutions of any state notwithstanding." It also validates national debt created under the Articles of Confederation and requires that all federal and state legislators, officers, and judges take oaths or affirmations to support the Constitution. This means that the states' constitutions and laws should not conflict with the laws of the federal constitution and that in case of a conflict, state judges are legally bound to honor the federal laws and constitution over those of any state."
"... the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the laws or constitutions of any state notwithstanding."
The legislatures, executives, and jurists of every state in this Union are prohibited from violating the United States Constitution.
"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
In fucking fact, MNG, they're required by supreme law to swear allegiance to the principles of the federal constitution.
What a disingenuous little shit you are.
Bravo, everyone! I quite enjoyed this argument and good points were made by those opposing MNG.
Yeah... when the federal government tramples our rights, we're mad. But when the states trample our rights, we're a-okay. And if the federal government tries to stop states from trampling our rights, we're mad.
What planet did you come from? They need to take you back.
It's just funny to see people trumpeting State's Rights in general, but on topic after topic celebrating federal standards and actions used to strike down state experimentation.
State's Rights, Great Idea, Except When it Isn't!
"but on topic after topic celebrating federal standards and actions used to strike down state experimentation."
Citation needed.
And didn't you lose a bet that required you to change your screen name? YES, actually, you did.
Double posting the ad hominen calling me a tard, double yummy. At least I can work the buttons here.
http://reason.com/archives/201.....nt_2365826
And didn't you lose a bet that required you to change your screen name? YES, actually, you did.
"but on topic after topic celebrating federal standards and actions used to strike down state experimentation."
Citation needed.
And didn't you lose a bet that required you to change your screen name? YES, actually, you did.
State's Rights, Great Idea, Except When it Isn't!
Yes, MNG. In big-people-words, we call it "Federalism". Now, drink your milk and go to bed.
State's should be able to make their own policy. Except on speech issues. And association. And Assembley. And religion. And guns. And criminal justice policy. And correctional policy. And...
Cake and eat it too.
"State's should be able to make their own policy. except where it violates the Constitution"
You've already proven you're not smart enough to understand this. Why beat a dead horse?
Yep, outside of a handful of issues that the states are forbidden to infringe upon, the states should be free to make their own policy.
Do you argue against concepts like "free speech" because they're not absolute?
For example, would you castigate a group for celebrating free speech victories because that same group doesn't support "free speech" like threatening the president, uttering 'fighting words' or leaking classified materials?
"outside of a handful of issues that the states are forbidden to infringe upon, the states should be free to make their own policy."
Yup, great except when it isn't. Got it.
Dumbass.
You didn't address the 2nd part of my post.
Do groups proclaiming to support free speech earn your scorn because they don't support "free speech" in the form of threats, fighting words, leaking national secrets, etc.?
http://reason.com/archives/201.....nt_2365826
Supposing I'm right that the SCOTUS ruled the law violated the First, then the states are outside the terms of their rights, right? Or are states allowed to make laws that violate the Constitution?
Fudge! Damn squirrels! The one above is for MNG.
See below @ 8:25 Knutty.
Incorporation was denounced by state's righters as an unprecedented violation of the rights of states. Under incorporation state's actions on a veritable slew of issues must now comport to a federal standard policed by federal courts. Anyone who says they are for incorporation and for state's rights is a total goofball, trying to have their cake and eat it to.
With yourconstant equivocation, are you just ignorant between the difference between federation and confederacy, or are you being willfully mendacious?
You can dress it up with whatever word you want. Essentially you are saying "States should make policy, except for a slew of areas I think are important."
See, the problem is, that's not the stance of a State's Righter. EVERYONE thinks that.
"You can dress it up with whatever word you want"
LOL, at least you admitted you didn't know what mendacious meant.
"States should make policy, except for a slew of areas I think are important."
That is the very definition of federalism. One way federalism differs from direct democracy is that federalism has mechanisms to protect the rights of the minority against majority opinion.
All kinds of mechanisms, some of them, such as equal representation in the Senate, certainly promote State's Rights, others, such as imposing the federal BoR to the State's can not be said to promote State's Rights, at least with a straight face.
http://reason.com/archives/201.....nt_2365826
Are you arguing that first amendment means that the federal government may not abridge freedom of the press, but the individual states can?
If so then what's the point?
I'm saying that is what an actual supporter of state's rights would say.
"I'm saying that is what an actual supporter of state's rights would say."
Hey everyone, I'm MNG, speaking for ALL supporters of state's rights everywhere, and insisting no one is capable of any nuance in their thinking. \stupidity
For State's Rights to have any meaning it has to have some sensible form, and "it's great except for a slew of important areas where it isn't" is not that form.
There have been many principled State's Righters in our history and they would have not recognized that "cake and eat it too" version of State's Rights.
What happens is recent converts to movement conservatism hear this phrase tossed around their circles and being Good Lil' Conservatives they toss the slogan around too, but of course they don't know what it historically and conceptually entails and don't believe in it (it's hard to). Ironically they have traditionally and conceptually liberal beliefs about the issue but still ignorantly toss the slogan around.
Yeah, you either have to be a liberal and think the constitution means nothing or you have to completely throw out substantive due process. That is ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing inconsistent about recognizing the federal system but also recognizing some form of substantive due process.
Good lord, if there is anything more hated by conservatives than incorporation it is substantive due process!
MNG:Good lord, if there is anything more hated by conservatives than incorporation it is substantive due process!
[citation needed]
MNG|6.29.11 @ 8:40AM|#
How about the work of, well, pretty much every major conservative legal theorist of the last few decades (Ed Whelan, Robert Bork, Matthew Franck, Raoul Berger, Walter Berns).
By the way, that post @ 12:27 can also be the citation for the claim that Brendan Perez is an idiot and a tool.
So not conservatives per se, but rather 'every' (?) major conservative legal theorist.
Theorists don't represent the view of every actual or claimed conservative or even necessarily a majority of them.
Supporting states rights isn't inconsistent with the Constitution. We, as a people, created a law of the land that gave certain powers/duties to the federal government and reserved certain rights for individuals. All powers that were granted to the federal government are reserved for the states, so long as executing those powers do not interfere with individual rights. Many state's rights supporters are simply resisting attempts by the federal government to usurp the powers reserved for the states. We aren't saying states should have absolute power over everything.
That should be "All powers that were not granted..."
MNG is arguing that if you oppose the federal government imposing things onto the states through laws and regulations, that you must also oppose federal restrictions on what state governments may do.
It is a false equivocation.
If I concede your point, then that law still oversteps the bounds put upon the government of California by the state's constitution, and should have been struck down by the state's supreme court.
Now that makes more sense.
But you provide no evidence or reasonable explanations to support that position.
Are you actually retarded? In several places I actually cited half a dozen scholars who hold this view and also explained the conceptual difficulty with saying one is for State's Rights but also incorporating the federal standards and policing of state decision making that incorporation involves.
Strawman much?
The 14th Amendment was ratified by the states.
Jesus, MNG, different people might have a different idea of what "states' rights" means. Can you really not accept that fact? There is no central committee which decides what the term means. Some people think it means that the 14th doesn't incorporate the BOR, and some people think it means that the states can do what they want as long as they don't violate the BOR. Personally, I think it is a stupid term which libertarians should not use. Governments don't have rights, they have power and authority over certain things.
I gather people can have different ideas, but I submit that a person who says he is for State's Right's but endorses the major constitutional episodes of undermining state decision making is akin to a libertarian saying they hate big government but love the New Deal.
I will go with the Frank Zappa line. I don't want someone else telling me how smart my kids are.
Threadjack - Here's another one in the only the cops can be trusted with guns file.
It's a limey newspaper -- they're SHOCKED SHOCKED HORROR SHOCKED at a fucking rifle? What a bunch of pussies
The Bill of Rights was meant to apply not to state governments, but the federal one (Congress shall make no law...). After the Civil War the nation saw some of the consequences of this and they decided to place federal restrictions on the States in areas which were unheard of beforehand. This was a major blow to State's Rights folks (and they recognized it as such at the time). But still State's Rights folks could argue that the federal restrictions under the 14th were narrow, explicitly referring only to due process, equal protection and P&I. Later the Warren Court, much demonized by the right, dealt State's Rights another blow (and again, the chief proponents of that view vocally recognized it as such) by further imposing federal standards and policing of state actions via incorporation of most of the BoR. A huge chunk of policy decisions that beforehand were the sole province of the state's would now be policed by the federal government. For a person to profess "State's Rights" but then endorse that move is like someone professing libertarianism but also being cool with the New Deal.
The Bill of Rights was meant to apply not to state governments, but the federal one (Congress shall make no law...).
I hope you realize that argument is as full as shit. The wording of 9th and 10th amendments prove as much.
The 9th: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
The 10th:The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Go and ask a native speaker of whatever moonspeak-babble you speak to translate so you can understand.
The 10th clearly indicates that portions of the constitution, of which the Bill of Rights is a part, restrict state powers. What is restricted is clearly still in question, but the restrictions must be there.
I'm not entirely sure that the original intent of all involved was for the BoR's to apply against the states, however, I do think that anyone that thinks they shouldn't, is reaching for more power than they should have.
I consider myself a federalist or states rights person, or whatever you'd call it, but I have never seen a consistent argument that made the BoR to be an intrusion on that view.
While I understand that there have been individuals, and maybe even at times a majority of states rights people that held the position MNG is talking about, I doubt very much that that is the case currently. Even were I in the minority in this, it wouldn't make me wrong.
"but I have never seen a consistent argument that made the BoR to be an intrusion on that view."
Er, it's because the BoR is a federal standard imposed by federal courts. Incorporation basically said "on all the many issues covered by the BoR which the State legislatures and courts had province over, the federal courts and their standards will now control." How the f*ck that comports with State's Rights is hard to understand.
I think many libertarians and conservatives just have heard this slogan tossed around in 'anti-government' circles and think it's neat to toss around while still loving the federal standards imposed on their states and localities by the liberal idea of incorporation. Having their cake and eating it too.
I get what your saying MNG, and I understand the issue with the federal court making the decisions relating the BoR to state law wrt state's rights. I just think your trying to make this entirely too black and white. There is nothing wrong with wanting the feds out of states business as far as regulations and laws, and still wanting state powers restricted by the constitution.
There are certainly issues in practice, especially with the amount of 'interpretation' that is being used in the supreme court. No matter what theory one espouses, there are real world hurdles to overcome.
Er, how does the 9th and 10th Amendments apply restrictions to the state governments? You're quite stupid you know.
How can it say "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States", without indicating that the constitution, in some place or manor restricts the powers of the states? Seems pretty silly to refer to limiting state powers, but never actually do it, doesn't it?
It limits state powers thus:
Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1:
"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."
Article 1, Section 10, Clause 2:
"No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress."
Article 1, Section 10, Clause 3:
"No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."
What Aelhues said.
By the way, MNG, perhaps to someone like Jacob M. Appel I may be "stupid"; however, your obtuse world-view, your fatuous reasoning and the limited scope your intellect compared to mine is such that you would be barely considered sentient compared to someone like me.
I think I get it.
We can't argue for 'states' rights' on some issues without dedicating ourselves to fighting all states' rights issues
So MNG, you must not be a fan of the ACLU because they only support some civil liberties. Since the ACLU has been historically weak on gun right issues and don't deal much at all in youth rights, they can't be considered to be civil liberties defenders, can they?
Why would someone call themselves for 'state's rights' while endorsing historical revolutions that restricted the powers of the states by imposing federal standards and policing on a host of issues? It boggles the mind...
Since, apparently, not supporting states rights in the absolute sense disqualifies us from calling our cause that of "states' rights", what should we call it?
Liberty
States rights is a bunch of bullcrap anyway. States don't have rights, they have powers. And those powers are limited by the constitution and always have been (even if the BOR didn't apply originally, the sates still couldn't make treaties with foreign countries or have a non-republic form of government, for example). Individuals have rights, not governments, so the concept of "States' rights" is contrary to the usual libertarian position on rights.
I see your point. It is much better to say that State's Rights is about State's Powers. But my point still stands: incorporation of the BoR was historically one of the most revolutionary transfers of State Powers to the Federal Government in our history (another being the adoption of the Reconstruction Amendments and the judicial interpretation of the New Deal court).
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the usual libertarian position on rights.
http://reason.com/archives/201.....nt_2365933
http://reason.com/archives/201.....nt_2365826
That's so you don't get lost, MNG.
Leaving aside the anencephalic troll (who spent the better part of a day debating shit on which Justice Scalia and the majority of the SCOTUS had already ruled), we know that politicians don't really care about kids. They care about getting re-elected, and keeping their chairs warm.
California pols made the stupid and unconstitutional law that they did because their mouth-breathing, nanny-statist constituents whine about what "busy moooooms" they are, and how the gub'mint should really do something to protect the pweshus chyldwun! Because saying "no" to impulse game, candy, toy, and fast-food purchases is soooo haaaaaard!
IOW, politicians don't come into private homes and get between parents and children without being invited. Getting the government out of the parenting business requires that parents stop whining to the government about how "haaaaaard" it is to be a parent, and stop willingly abdicating their responsibilities and what should be private, family choices to government.
Although I respect their right as a private company to do so, this is one of the customer services annoyances (which they took to a "complete moron" level) that helped Blockbuster close shop. Example: I'm 18. A few months ago (when there were more Blockbusters around) I went to one to rent a game. I went to the counter, gave it to the employee, and he said, "Are you old enough to rent this game?" Oh, did I forget to mention that my mother drove me? And that she was standing right behind me at the checkout? And paid with her credit card? And signed the receipt? That guy's I just said yes instead of carving the word stupid in his forehead.
*That guy's lucky
I dunno, they could refuse to rent to you based on a two-party sale.
I have failed at buying alcohol at Wal-Mart on multiple occasions, including having my infant daughter with me and having my underage brother with me. (Probably the best part was the clerk reflexively asking for ID for the infant, since their script goes "we need to see ID for all of you").
I am, once again, awed at MNG's ability to create libertarian straw men, soak them in gasoline, and then set them alight.
He starts with the axiom that anyone who supports "states' rights" does not believe incorporation.
He then proceeds to attack anyone who would incorporate the Bill of Rights against state legislation as a hypocrite or, at beast, delusional and inconsistent. In MNG's worldview, one must assert that states would have the right to assassinate their own citizens for having brown hair in order to be a true libertarian.
He does all of this despite the fact nobody here would support the Slaughter-House Cases and despite this magazine generally siding against the concept of "states' rights" insofar as those powers are exercised against liberty & the people.
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And most people in my parents, it seems, is the best teacher in children
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