Supreme Court Says Pretending to Detain People As Material Witnesses Is Constitutional
This week the Supreme Court unanimously rejected a lawsuit by Abdullah al-Kidd, a U.S. citizen who was detained for 16 days in 2003, ostensibly as a material witness, while the government tried unsuccessfully to build a terrorism case against him. Al-Kidd sued former Attorney General John Ashcroft, arguing that he had authorized his subordinates to use the material witness statute as a pretext for preventive detention. Justice Elena Kagan did not participate in the decision because she was involved in the case as solicitor general. But the other eight justices all agreed that Ashcroft was entitled to "qualified immunity" because the pattern of abuse alleged by Al-Kidd (who, like many other "material witnesses" nabbed after 9/11, was never called to testify) was not clearly illegal at the time it occurred.
Five justices—John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, and Anthony Kennedy—went further, saying Al-Kidd's Fourth Amendment rights were not violated even if the government was only pretending to hold him as a material witness, provided the statute's formal requirements were satisfied (and assuming the statute itself is constitutional; see below). In a concurring opinion, Kennedy said he's not sure the detention was in fact lawful under the statute. Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, and Sonia Sotomayor joined that part of Kennedy's opinion. Ginsburg wrote a separate concurring opinion, joined by Breyer and Sotomayor, that highlighted crucial misstatements and omissions in the statement on which Al-Kidd's arrest was based and the "brutal conditions" of his detention, which belied the pretense that he was being held as a material witness. Sotomayor also wrote a concurring opinion, joined by Ginsburg and Breyer, questioning the majority's position that pretextual detention does not violate the Fourth Amendment and arguing that it was in any case unnecessary to decide that question.
Making the best out of this defeat, ACLU attorney Lee Gelernt, who argued Al-Kidd's case, noted that "half of the justices who participated in today's decision expressed real questions about how the government used the material witness statute in al-Kidd's case." He said he hopes "those questions will lead to a serious examination moving forward of the use of the statute as a tool for preventive detention."
Another cause (pretext?) for hope: In its 2009 decision (PDF) allowing Al-Kidd's suit to proceed, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit noted that "the Supreme Court has never held that detention of innocent persons as material witnesses is permissible under the Fourth Amendment." It still has not. Because Al-Kidd challenged Ashcroft's abuse of the material witness statute, as opposed to the law itself, the Court did not address the broader question, holding only that "the objectively reasonable arrest and detention of a material witness pursuant to a validly obtained warrant cannot be challenged as unconstitutional on the basis of allegations that the arresting authority had an improper motive." The majority noted that Al-Kidd "does not assert that his arrest would have been unconstitutional absent the alleged pretext."
I discussed the oral arguments in Ashcroft v. Al-Kidd in March.
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Yet another abysmal court decision. Apparently, the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to people with funny names and facial hair.
Unfortunately, the precedent applies to people of all races, creeds, nationalities, and religions.
In theory. In reality, there are very few nubile college coeds with blond hair and blue eyes being detained for weeks as "material witnesses" in terrorism trials (well, that we know of, at any rate).
I hear you, but there's no legal bar on the state doing just that. To populate the harem of whichever president figures out that he has unlimited power, if he wants it.
Nothing limits this to terrorism either. Note the debate over extending the USA PATRIOT act - several senators made it clear that the provisions of the act were critical to the War On Drugs, particularly the SARs.
US to the camel's nose: Come for the terrorism, stay for the drug war!
Not long after the act was passed, the DOJ was doing siminars on how the act could be applied to law enforcement.
Simoniars? Simianars? Semenars?
The possible abuses of this term are endless.
Scimitars.
See?
Sermontars.
And, of course, for those of the gameroom generation: Sinistars.
"I hunger, coward!"
Those nubile coeds are getting felt up by the TSA goons, so it all evens out.
^^ Granted, I didn't take that into consideration : D
Shit. I have a funny name and facial hair.
Be safe. Shave.
"the objectively reasonable arrest and detention of a material witness pursuant to a validly obtained warrant cannot be challenged as unconstitutional on the basis of allegations that the arresting authority had an improper motive."
This is a Kafka-level insanity.
The Court in this sentence is directly stating that a magistrate doesn't need to actually believe you are a material witness to hold you as a material witness.
Nothing can be added to this comment. It's perfect.
I'm going to cut through the Gordian knot and say it is NOT "objectively reasonable" or even constitutional to hold an innocent person in custody as a "material witness" under any circumstances, since the Fifth Amendment forbids that on two different counts: "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".
First, if you are being held in custody without your consent, you have the right to argue that you will not testify if put up on the stand because of your right to not self-incriminate, and you refuse to answer how your testimony might self-incriminate you, because answering THAT question would itself be self-incriminating ...
and further, being held in custody when no one is alleging any criminal acts by you is being deprived of liberty without due process of law.
It's fucking astonishing how at least 8 SCOTUS justices, and almost certainly all 9, can't read the plain text of the constitution.
But Prole, there was due process. The gov't passed a law saying that all they need to do is fill out a form declaring someone a material witness, and then they can detain them. That is the due process involved in restraining a material witness. The only way due process was violated, is if the DoJ forgot to fill out that form. So you see, it's all on the up and up!
No, Jim, he did not get due process.
For due process to be satisfied, the authority under which one is being held against his will by the state must conform to FIRST PRINCIPLES, i.e., the spirit of 1776, the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the constitution. IOW, the state must be acting in pursuance of the former. If it is not, then there is no due process.
It was sarcasm, LM, relax. The SC has decided that due process has nothing to do with first principals, even though it should.
So if the broader question is answered, can he then sue Ashcroft?
The court loves upholding immunity from consequence for their fellow royals.
This.
The majority noted that Al-Kidd "does not assert that his arrest would have been unconstitutional absent the alleged pretext."
I wonder why not? There must have been a strategic reason for not attacking the Constitutionality of the statute, but I can't think of it off-hand.
If the ACLU lost that decision at SCOTUS, it would be the practical end of habeas corpus. Public Advocacy litigation has to consider both what it can win and what it can lose.
..because what you lose, you never get back.
So let that happen! Let just get this charade out of the way that this is a nation of laws and not men. That way, revolution could happen sooner...assuming the public ever get a spine.
Call me a bad man, but I agree.
Sounds like the NRA and their eternal refusal to bring a case under the 2A.
Jeebus, ACLU, if you bring a test case, bring a fucking test case. Challenge how the statute was applied, and whether it was Constitutional. If you lose, well, you haven't really lost anything much. There's not much difference between a Constitutional provision that has been overtly gutted and one that everyone knows they can just ignore.
This. I'm not sure what the logic is that, "If we lose, then the whole amendment will be thrown out". Problem is...the amendment is already being ignored, or the constitutional aspect wouldn't even be available for questioning. So you're basically already in the next-to-worst-case scenerio. Sometimes you've got to throw the dice.
I think they might be holding out for a more favorable court. You never know what another decade or so might bring.
The ACLU is being pussies. You should challenge the law and how it is being applied as being unconstitutional on every conceivable basis, force SCOTUS to rule on all of them, and then when they pull crap like this, loudly and publicly declare that the decision was an impeachable offense because it violated their oath of office to uphold the constitution.
But that would mean the Court can render rulings which do not uphold the Constitution, which is a notion wholly incompatible with the liberal position that the Constitution means whatever the Court says it means.
That's belied by the aftermath of Kelo when jurisdictions doubled down* on their eminent domain abuse.
* sorry card game pedants, that's the way I use the phrase. Deal.
Other jurisdictions used Kelo to pass laws limiting the ability to commit eminent domain abuse.
The problem is that no one in government is willing to openly defy a SCOTUS decision as unconstitutional and refuse to abide by it.
Uh.....
Other jurisdictions used Kelo to pass laws limiting the ability to commit eminent domain abuse.
Except those laws had blight exceptions by and large, which renders them toothles.
And, of course, far be it from the Court to actually take up the issue sua sponte.
Slow down there Hoss. This court decides about what, 80 cases a year? Imagine the havoc that would ensue if they doubled their case load?
Oh yeah, if they worked on cases, they wouldn't have time for those $50,000.00 a pop speaking engagements.
Really why the fuck should I listen to what these people have to say?
They wouldn't even be taking up a new case.
Just saying, well, here we have a valid case or controversy. Even though we think the plaintiff's case on subjective intent is a loser, it doesn't matter. The plaintiff wins anyway, because the statute he was held under is unconstitutional.
Seriously, you thought we were going to allow the DOJ to lock up people indefinitely without ever charging them with a crime? That's crazy talk!
They wouldn't even be taking up a new case.
Agreed. Every case has a limited number of issues, whether they are legal or procedural. I'd think that the Supreme have the authority and the power to review them at any time. Especially as the fucks seem to be getting lazier and lazier as far has the number of cases.
I mean fuck, if I had had only 80 cases to do a year with a small army of clerks, it would be a fucking cakewalk and I think every lawyer here would agree with me.
I've been rethinking the Censor a bit. I now wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea for the Censorial branch to live outside the four walls of the federal government. A sort of anti-government, if you will.
I'd originally envisioned it as being a fourth branch, with checks and balances against and with the other three branches, but I fear it would just go all pro-government, like the courts have.
For those new to this blog, the idea is to reconstitute (to some extent) the old Roman office of the censor, which would have some veto powers and very substantial powers to remove any federal official (in theory, this could be replicated at the state level).
waterboard ashcroft till he fesses up
"Supreme Court Says Pretending to Detain People As Material Witnesses Is Constitutional"
If they were just pretending to hold al-Kidd, I'd have agreed.
Overall, I think that it's pretty clear that this subverted the intent of the law, if not the exact letter. But I should think that there should be some requirement that government officials act in good faith. Intent should matter, to the extent that it can be determined.
It doesn't matter what the fucking intent of the law was, since the law itself is unconstitutional. Holding people you declare are not guilty of a crime because you want them to testify subverts the intent and actual wording of the Bill of Rights.
Kennedy said he's not sure the detention was in fact lawful under the statute.
It's not lawful under the constitution.
One more example of the Supreme court failing to do their duty. I wish I were surprised, but I'm not.
-jcr
The courts have really been working overtime lately pissing on the 4th Amendment. I wonder what's up?
Pissing on it? More like gang-raping its corpse.
""Pissing on it? More like gang-raping its corpse.""
Yeah, yet well see all sorts of support for the Constutition, freedom, and liberty come the 4th of July.
You ever notice how we don't celebrate and barely note Constitution Day (September 17)? Why is that? I'm not sure even Hit & Run makes note of it on a regular basis.
For the record, as wonderful as the Revolution and the Declaration of Independence were, the Constitution was and should remain a big deal. It's a paean to limited government.
Oddly, my university makes a huge deal of it. Gives out cider, apple pie and pocket Constitutions. And has guest speakers that read the amendments and provide non-libertarian offensive commentary. Every year, I expect to find some hippie seizing on the quad.
You know, it occurs to me that maybe you live on Bizarro Earth, and we're communicating through some interdimensional blogging warp.
I swears. I always take my student workers out to get pie and watch the clean-cut high school kids stumble through The Preamble.
I'm not saying that they don't mumble pass the 2nd and rather weakly explore the implications of the 9th and 10th, but by the end of it, those kids damn well know that the government can't make them let a solider move in with them.
""those kids damn well know that the government can't make them let a solider move in with them.""
Unless prescribed by law.
"No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."
Not at all in peacetime. The "nor" means that anything following it does not apply to what precedes the "nor".
""Not at all in peacetime""
When will that return?
Seriously. Ever since 1949 we haven't been at peace (Cold War). Now, thanks to the WoT, there can be no peace. Ever. Not as long as one single person on earth wishes harm to the United States. As long as a single such person exists, we are in a State of Emergency and War.
And afterward, we will be at war with the surviving cockroaches.
Nobody gives a crap about any holiday unless someone's getting the day off. If they have to go to work and their mail gets delivered then it didn't happen.
""the Constitution was and should remain a big deal.""
I would much rather government follow it, than throw a party for it.
For the record, as wonderful as the Revolution and the Declaration of Independence were, the Constitution was and should remain a big deal. It's a paean to limited government.
Ummm, no it's not. The Constitution was a power grab by the federal government, compared to the much more limited government of the Articles of Confederation. Libertarians should mourn its passage, not celebrate it.
This. I try to refer to it as the "con-shit-tution".
Yes and no. The Constitution created a much stronger federal government, but also limited it in ways the Articles didn't contemplate. The only freedom of speech mentioned in the Articles of Confederation is freedom to speak in Congress.
Prepping the way for the much-needed expansion of gov't power which will be used to hold the world together after the Mayan end-times next year. It's all for the good.
But the other eight justices all agreed that Ashcroft was entitled to "qualified immunity" because the pattern of abuse alleged by Al-Kidd was not clearly illegal at the time it occurred.
OK. I can understand this. It sound like an expo facto argument.
Five justices?John Roberts, Antonin Scalia, Clarence Thomas, Samuel Alito, and Anthony Kennedy?went further, saying Al-Kidd's Fourth Amendment rights were not violated even if the government was only pretending to hold him as a material witness, provided the statute's formal requirements were satisfied
So the statute trumps the Constitution?
Kennedy said he's not sure the detention was in fact lawful under the statute. Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, and Sonia Sotomayor joined that part of Kennedy's opinion.
But you'll let the government get away with it anyway? This is why I have no respect for the law. First of all, they dismiss the 4th amendment claim, then even having reservation about following the statute, they punt like the meek fucks that they are. And the idea that the State's motives are irrelevent are beyond reproach boggles the mind. The feds should have to justify their actions at every turn.
Sotomayor also wrote a concurring opinion, joined by Ginsburg and Breyer, questioning the majority's position that pretextual detention does not violate the Fourth Amendment and arguing that it was in any case unnecessary to decide that question. Really? Hiding behind procedural hair splitting? You people really are cowards to take on the executive, aren't you?
holding only that "the objectively reasonable arrest and detention of a material witness pursuant to a validly obtained warrant cannot be challenged as unconstitutional on the basis of allegations that the arresting authority had an improper motive."
First of all, that "objectively reasonable" shit doesn't make sense. Reasonableness is subjective. At best that phrase is an oxymoron, at worst, a contradiction. But this is what passes for "legal reasoning". Second, it isn't at all fucking reasonable in my play book that if someone is detained because the government is trying to fuck some on over, if the government is trying to intimidate someone, if the government cocksucker has a personal grudge. The rubber stamp that is the judiciary in signing off on warrant shouldn't shield the State from its malfeasance.
Not according to Tony yesterday.
I can see why holding material witnesses might in some cases be necessary. But holding them in prison? Seems to me that if you absolutely need to detain someone as a witness, you should detain them in as much comfort and kindness as reasonably possible. Prison is for punishment. Perhaps a nice hotel suite with room service and a few armed guards at the door?
But then the mafia will send an immigrant maid in to stick a needle into your epidydemis, draw some sperm out, and squirt it into her mouth.
OK, so a material case is an important witness that a party needs in order to prove its case? Well fuckers, if I am that important, and you treat my importance by putting me in the fucking slammer, I can just feel my memory fading, day by day. Did these people not get the you do not bite the hand that feeds you memo?
Travaux pour moi.
I can see why holding material witnesses might in some cases be necessary.
Nope. Not ever. It is never "necessary" to hold an innocent person against their will.
But holding them in prison? Seems to me that if you absolutely need to detain someone as a witness, you should detain them in as much comfort and kindness as reasonably possible.
It doesn't matter how fucking plush the accomodations are, or how nice the food is, or how good the maid service is. I don't care if it is a 5 star hotel. If you do not want to be there, and they have armed people who forbid you to leave, it is a prison.
I can see why holding material witnesses might in some cases be necessary.
Convenient, perhaps. But necessary? Necessary to what end that justifies locking people up?
Be careful, that's a damn slippery slope you're about to step on.
If you can't hold material witnesses you can pretty much forget about prosecuting mafia dons.
This only seems like a valid objection if you have not yet had the epiphany that the federal government is a mafia with better PR, and they are going after mafia dons to get rid of the competition and maintain their monopoly.
Shorter: "We had to lock up an innocent person and take them hostage, because otherwise we couldn't take on our competitors, who are evil, awful people who do bad things like take people hostage."
Would you rather be in the defendant's seat in a federal courtroom being tried by a federal judge, or in a warehouse with garden clippers around your thumb being questioned by a mafia enforcer?
Then in that case, you'd probably voluntarily enter protective custody. We're talking about forcing people who don't want to be witnesses to be detained against their will. You're conflating two entirely different items.
I'm thinking the more likely strategy would be to flee the jurisdiction. But in any case, I was addressing prole's statement that the difference between mafia and govt is just PR.
One of my favorite Godfather moments & quotes:
Kay: "Do you know how naive you sound, Michael? Presidents and senators don't have men killed"
Michael: "Oh. Who's being naive, Kay?"
"half of the justices who participated in today's decision expressed real questions about how the government used the material witness statute in al-Kidd's case."
Only half? Mon Dieu, if Congress wanted to get some political traction before 2012, they could start impeaching Supreme Court justices and ensure landslide victories for the incumbents.
If the arresting authority had an improper motive, how can the warrant be valid? They basically lied to obtain the warrant.
SOP
Though it was not considered, in this particular case there is no "basically" going on.
The affidavit has multiple factual errors.
Little things like state he had a one-way ticket when it was round trip. Like stating he was traveling first class, when he was in fact in cattle class.
Yes but none of these questions about the legality of the warrant were brought up in the lawsuit.
Don't worry, if the government really needs them as a witness, they won't throw them in prison. This will only be used as a last resort to imprison people when the government has no other legal pretext.
Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214 (1944)