Goodbye, Navalny

Plus: A listener asks if the editors have criteria for what constitutes a good law.

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Goodbye, Navalny

In this week's The Reason Roundtable, Katherine Mangu-Ward is in the driver's seat, alongside Nick Gillespie and special guests Zach Weissmueller and Eric Boehm. The editors react to the latest plot twists in Donald Trump's various legal proceedings and the death of Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny.

00:41—The trials of Donald Trump in Georgia and New York

25:04—Weekly Listener Question

33:23—Sora, a new AI video tool

43:55—The death of Alexei Navalny

49:58—This week's cultural recommendations

Mentioned in this podcast:

"How a New York Judge Arrived at a Staggering 'Disgorgement' Order Against Trump," by Jacob Sullum

"Prosecutor Fani Willis Touts the Value of Cash, but What About the Rest of Us?" by J.D. Tuccille

"Trump Ordered To Pay $364 Million for Inflating His Assets in Civil Fraud Trial," by Joe Lancaster

"Alvin Bragg Is Trying To Punish Trump for Something That Is Not a Crime," by Jacob Sullum

"Alexei Navalny's Death Is a Timely Reminder of How Much Russia Sucks," by Eric Boehm

"Why Is Nike Stomping on Independent Creators?" by Kevin P. Alexander

"Bury My Sneakers at Wounded Knee," by Nick Gillespie

"Creation Myth: Does innovation require intellectual property rights?" by Douglas Clement

"A Private Libertarian City in Honduras," by Zach Weissmueller

"The Real Reasons Africa Is Poor—and Why It Matters," by Nick Gillespie

Bono's Ukraine Speech

"Justice or persecution? The Trump dilemma"

Send your questions to [e-mail]. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.

Today's sponsor:

• ZBiotics. Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by Ph.D. scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works: When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day. ZBiotics produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make ZBiotics your first drink of the night and to drink responsibly, and you'll feel your best tomorrow. Go to zbiotics.com/roundtable to get 15 percent off your first order when you use code ROUNDTABLE at checkout. ZBiotics is backed with a 100 percent money-back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked.

Audio production by Ian Keyser; assistant production by Hunt Beaty.

Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve

• Producer: Hunt Beaty

What are we consuming this week?

Eric Boehm

• The Caribbean Series Final

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• A Day of Fallen Night by Samantha Shannon

Zach Weissmueller

• Navalny

Nick Gillespie

• The Charter Cities Atlas by The Adrianople Group and The Charter Cities Institute

---

Comments

[Diane Reynolds (Paul. they/them)]

better thread for this:

Navalny’s wife, likely a tailor-of-Panama type of figure, getting the princess treatment in the press today.

Yet this kind of flew under the radar.

Amnesty strips Alexei Navalny of ‘prisoner of conscience’ status

Amnesty International has stripped the Russian opposition politician Alexei Navalny of his “prisoner of conscience” status after it says it was “bombarded” with complaints highlighting xenophobic comments that he has made in the past and not renounced.

A spokesman for the human rights organisation in Moscow told the BBC that he believed the wave of requests to “de-list” Navalny was part of an “orchestrated campaign” to discredit Vladimir Putin’s most vocal critic and “impede” Amnesty’s calls for his release from custody.
But on review, Amnesty International concluded that comments made by Navalny some 15 years ago, including a video which appears to compare immigrants to cockroaches, amounted to “hate speech” which was incompatible with the label “prisoner of conscience”.

[SRG2]

Putin didn't murder Navalny for hate speech.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul. they/them)]

From Reuters:

Opinion polls put Navalny's support at less than 2 percent and many Russians, who still get much of their news from state TV, say they do not know who he is.

He is an invention of the west.

[Mother's Lament]

Yes, at 2% Navalny was like a racist version of Jill Stein. Whereas Trump is an actual contender.

Also, I want Jeff and SRG2 to explain how Navalny’s advertisement starting at 6:36 meshes with their narrative.

[SRG2]

I don't do "narrative", so stop with your cretinous bullshit.

Putin thought Navalny was a threat, had him poisoned (unsuccessfully) imprisoned him and finally had him killed. Whatever else Navalny may have been, he was surely not as bad as Putin and he was a prisoner of conscience. I don't expect western standards of tolerance from Russians whether pro- or anti-Putin.

But of course you can't condemn Putin. Your primary concern here is to try to Jeff and me because you're a fucked up clown who yearns for a Putin type - like the other fucked up clown JesseAz, whose response to Navalny's murder was "Zelensky did it too"

[R Mac]

“Your primary concern here is to try to Jeff and me because you’re a fucked up clown”

In an unexpected twist, gov’na shrike attempts to steal sarc’s title as drunkest leftist.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

I was told today that he was the leading opposition candidate in Russia. The polling I've seen says he had 9 percent favorable 37 percent unfavorable and the rest had never heard of him. But for some reason we need to give the Ukrainian comic another 60 billion like in his honor or something.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Do you want Joe Biden to starve?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

You mean, the opinion polls in Russia that are conducted by Putin-run state media? Those opinion polls "show" that Navalny had 2% support? Really? How shocking!

You all continue to amaze me. You will criticize NPR as "state-run media" that is basically government propaganda, yet you will happily accept REAL state-run propaganda produced by dictatorial regimes like Putin's Russia as the clear will of the people.

[damikesc]

Can you provide any polls showing him as a threat?

[R Mac]

I’m not convinced the CIA didn’t murder him.

I’m sure gov’na shrike will dismiss this idea out of hand because it contradicts the left wing narrative.

[SQRLSY One]

I’m not convinced twat the LIZARD PEOPLE didn’t murder him!

Now will ALL of ye grovelling morons PLEASE grovel to MEEEEE some moah, and PROVE that Navalny was SNOT murdered by the Lizard People?!? Ya can SNOT do twit, can ye? PROVES that I have my feces consolidated (AKA, shit together), and that the Lizard People DID do shit, and that R Mack Who Eats, Shits, Talks, and Snorts Smack, is UDDERLY full of shit!!!

(Shit SAYS that shit has muted me, which supposedly refutes ALL that I have to say!)

[Dillinger]

trust me, the Lizard People weren't in on it ... this time

[Mother's Lament]

^This.

The moment Biden used Navalny’s death for this:

Biden says Navalny’s reported death brings new urgency to the need for more US aid to Ukraine

I thought "Oh, the CIA did it".

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Yep.

[SQRLSY One]

Marxist Moose-Mammary-Farter-Fuhrer translated: "Ukraine must be cast to the wolves, 'cause their wolf-pack-Tribe did SNOT bark and howl, endlessly and faithfully, in Sacred Harmony, to Trumpism!!! And THAT Trumps ALL things!!!"

[R Mac]

Putin gained nothing by his death.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Odd, isn’t it?

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Jeffrey Epstein didn't commit suicide.

[SQRLSY One]

Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide ass a POWERFUL PROTEST against Trump's erections having been STOLEN, dammit!!!

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Did they poison him and imprison him, too?

[SQRLSY One]

"Putin didn’t murder Navalny for hate speech."

Beg to differ! Putin murdered Navalny for hating (or at least, speaking out against) power-piggery, anti-democracy, mobocracy, self-righteous thuggocracy, udderly STOOOOPID tribalism, and short-sighted might-makes-right!

(The good guys win in the end, so keep the Faith!)

[Bill Falcon]

who are the "good guys" in the middle east?

[SQRLSY One]

The ones who are keeping their heads down, trying to make an honest and peaceful living, praying for peace and better days ahead, loving their neighbors, and NOT making needless troubles for others! They're there (and everywhere that people are located); they just don't grab the headlines ass much ass the always-way-too-many assholes do).

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Reason finally found a nationalist they like; a dead one.

[JesseAz]

Still crickets on Lira. Wonder how much the Kochs have tied up in funding Ukraine.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

I don’t know if he has money there or not, He knows what his friends want though.

One hand washes the other.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Okay, be honest. Who would you rather have as your national leader: Putin, or Navalny?

Putin: is a dictator, murders his political opponents.
Navalny: is a bigot who doesn't like immigrants, but who favors democracy.

In an ideal world, I'll take the ideal person in charge of the ideal nation making ideal decisions. But in the real world, we are not afforded such luxuries.

[Rev Arthur L kuckland]

That is so wrong. Immigrants are not cockroaches. Cockroaches breed in lower numbers and cost less to society

[Public Entelectual]

What will be Tucker Carlson's next public diplomacy triumph?

[VULGAR MADMAN]

You certainly can’t blame the Secretary of State for such things.

[Public Entelectual]

It would be anachronistic – Putin awarded Tillerson the Order of Friendship before Trump appointed him Secretary.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

As a famous beardo once said: “At least in Russia I can take my despotism pure.”

[Diane Reynolds (Paul. they/them)]

Interviewing Joe Biden.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Any questions not related to ice cream will not be allowed.

[Bill Falcon]

Exposing AIPAC as a foreign enemy of America? We can all hope I suppose

[Dillinger]

daily reader question: does B wish he had the polonium in his fridge?

[Public Entelectual]

Why bother? - it pasteurizes itself 24/7.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul. they/them)]

Today's Trump & Biden articles from my local daily:

Trump:

Anti-Trump burnout: The resistance says it’s exhausted

Supreme Court rejects appeal from Trump-allied lawyers over 2020 election lawsuit in Michigan

Biden:

Patients see savings from Biden’s drug price push, as pharma lines up its lawyers 1 hour ago

[JesseAz]

Joe caused your insurance to cost more so he could save you pennies.

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-pulse/2022/10/12/bidens-health-care-inflation-problem-00061328

[Sandra (formerly OBL)]

"A listener asks if the editors have criteria for what constitutes a good law"

Of course they do: Will it make our sugar daddy richer?

😛

[JesseAz]

Pfft. Can it be used exclusively on Trump is the metric.

[SQRLSY One]

“A listener asks if the editors have criteria for what constitutes a good law”

ANYTHING that furthers the "narrative" (story, fib, lie) that TRUMP'S ERECTIONS WERE STOLEN!!!

HERE is a good law!!!

I told ya so!!!!

The Sad Saga of the Stolen Erections

And lo, it came to pass, that Tim the Enchanter blew upon His Magic Flute, and led me to a secret cave (the Cave of Caerbannog), whereupon mystic runes carved into the very living rock foretold of a day to come.

This sad, sad day has now manifested itself, just as foretold. The Promised One had been delivered to us, and was to fertilize His Queen, Spermy-Stormy Daniels, in an amazing scene; a glaze of Vaseline. Their offspring were to be called Strumpets… Which is a concatenation of Stormy and Trump. They were to number in the millions… About 332 million; enough for all residents of the USA to be issued one Strumpet per each resident, to sit on his or her right shoulder, and make sure that each resident stayed WAAAY Righteous. Each Strumpet was to progressively exert more and more Righteousness Control over each resident, by covering them in Strumpet Vines.

Sad to say, the Bad Bider-Grunch stole Trumpsmas AND Trump’s Erections! The stolen erections prevented the birth of the 332 million Strumpets, in the world’s WORST mass murder (genocide) so far! Even Saint Babbitt could NOT save the Strumpets!

This is the Sad Tale of the Demise of the USA!

[Sandra (formerly OBL)]

Fine. I'll embarrass you again.

For those who don't know, Squirrely resents me because I tricked him into admitting his entire anti-stolen-election-conspiracy routine is fraudulent.

Because if one sincerely objects to stolen election conspiracies, one would have to denounce the way Dems behaved after Hillary missed that 2016 layup, right? That's the bare minimum for consistency.

Moreover, if one is concerned that stolen election theories will lead to actual violence? Then one should still be traumatized by the left-wing domestic terrorist who was fed months of RUSSIA HACKED THE ELECTION messaging .......... then tried to massacre GOP Congressmen on a baseball field!

Squirrely, though? He was so unbothered by James Hodgkinson's rampage that he forgot all about it. In fact left-wing terrorism - even when fueled by stolen election conspiracies - has so little emotional impact on Squirrely, that he's convinced his side would never rise to the level of violent *threats*:

I don’t recall any “HillaryPanzees gone apeshit” and saying “kill him with his own gun”? Got any cites on that?

Is there a more devastating credibility-killer in the history of this comment section? I can't think of one.

[SQRLSY One]

Twatabout Hodgkinson’s diseased mind?!?!?

Butt, whatabout that them thar whatabouts? Whatabout Hillary? Whatabout OJ Simpson?

How many brain cells does it take to run a socio-political simulation on the following:

Judge and Jury: “Murderer, we find you guilty of murder! 20 years in the hoosegow for YOU! Now OFF with ye!”

Murderer: “But OJ Simpson got off for murder, why not me? We’re all equal, and need to be treated likewise-equal!”

Judge and Jury: “Oh, yes, sure, we forgot about that! You’re free to go! Have a good life, and try not to murder too many MORE people, please! Goodbye!”

Now WHERE does this line of thinking and acting lead to? Think REALLY-REALLY HARD now, please! What ABOUT OJ Simpson, now? Can we make progress towards peace & justice in this fashion?

(Ass for me, I think we should have PUT THE SQUEEZE on OJ!)

Sandranistas and twatabouts are part of the problem, NOT a part of the solution!

[Sandra (formerly OBL)]

"Sandranistas and twatabouts are part of the problem"

Nope. Unlike you, I ridicule stolen election conspiracy theorists whether they're whining about 2016 or 2020.

In the unlikely event Trump wins again, we both know Dems will dust off the 2017 WE WUZ ROBBED BY RUSSIA playbook. I'll mock them as mercilessly as I did in the OBL days. You, OTOH, will decide maybe conspiracy theories aren't so bad after all.

[SQRLSY One]

"In the unlikely event Trump wins again..."

I pray to Government Almighty that you're correct about that! I'm NOT fond of Biden or of the Demon-Craps, but I AM fond of democracy, the multi-party (ass opposed to one-party DICKtatorShit!) systems of Government Almighty, peaceful transfers of non-mobocracy powers, etc.! And Trump keeps on scaring the shit outta me!

[Mother's Lament]

Ha-ha, Sandra just kicked your retarded ass.

[SQRLSY One]

"In the unlikely event Trump wins again..." said Sandra. Is Marxist Mammary-Farter-Fuhrer capable of even CONCEIVING of Trumpy-Poooo NOT winning?

(Oh, yes, I know... The ONLY way that The Chosen One will lose, is if His Erections are Stolen AGAIN!!! DAMN those Lizard People!!!)

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Get a room, fellas.

[LIBertrans]

Hayes, Hoover, Nixon, Hillary and Twump all shrieked "we wuz robbed." That there's not a dime's worth of difference among Kleptocracy factions is proven by their struggles to destroy the LP rather than delete totalitarian platform planks,

[R Mac]

I like the Reason discussion on the death of Gonzalo Lira better.

[JesseAz]

0 of 0 search results returned.

[Rubbish!]

Have to go to Greenwald to hear that one.

[Beezard]

I was assured in the other navalny thread that the Lira case is completely different, because he tried to skip bail and flee the country after Ukrainian authorities ignored his double pneumonia for 8 months. Where as, Navalny came back to Russia (after being debriefed by his western handlers in Germany). So, totally different. No comparison.

[Rubbish!]

Best to avoid prisons altogether. Sorry that Navalny suffered this fate, but despite the incessant media and uniparty efforts, I'm still against sending $60 billion to Ukraine.

[Mother's Lament]

But they imprison dissidents and political opponents... oh, wait.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

They aren’t dissidents or political opponents if you don’t call them that!

[Public Entelectual]

Give Putin $60 billion, and he'll send 6o million Ukrainians to Siberia

[R Mac]

What a retarded comment. Who’s proposing giving Putin anything?

And there isn’t 60 million Ukrainians, there’s only about 30 million people in the whole country. Although if you disgusting ghouls have your way there won’t be a single Ukrainian left alive after your proxy war with Russia.

Do you cheer the deaths of all these people because of your hatred of Putin, your love of Hillary, or just a general psychopathy?

Sick fuck.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Although if you disgusting ghouls have your way there won’t be a single Ukrainian left alive after your proxy war with Russia.

Like you give a shit about any of them.

[Bill Falcon]

Slava Trotsky...let us be frank what this really was about.

[R Mac]

I think this is a good approach for you, Lying Jeffy, good job. Although calling me a Putin Puppet should be obligatory.

[Public Entelectual]

Have you been nominated for a Chinese Hugo yet?

[R Mac]

I always placed Lying Jeffy more of a soviet than a maoist, but I’m definitely open to reconsider the implications of his advocacy for child mutilation.

[Mother's Lament]

Like you or your evil paymasters give a shit about Ukrainians either. Zero effort to broker peace and near constant attempts to inflame tensions.

[R Mac]

Seriously though, I know you won’t engage in honest discussion, but for the lurkers, why do you think several libertarians here like Trump?

Can you not accept that some of us actually like Trump because he’s the only president in my adult life that hasn’t started a war?

I voted for gayjay in ‘16. Then Trump followed through on his attempts at peace (and lowered my taxes).

You think I support nonintervention because I support Trump. But I supported nonintervention while Trump was doing a TV show I wasn’t watching.

So question Jeffy, what do you think of us supporting wars? How important is this issue to you?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

several libertarians here like Trump?

A “libertarian who likes Trump” is like a “progressive who likes free markets”. It is a claim to be treated skeptically on whether that person really is who he/she claims to be.

I can accept that you are genuinely anti-war. Fine. Why are you anti-war? Is it because you’re a pacifist? I doubt it. “Libertarian pacifist” is more or less an oxymoron unless your name is Lysander Spooner. (And “Right-wing pacifist” is even more so.) It is because you care deeply and passionately about the victims of war? Again I doubt it, based on the preponderance of comments around here, I truly don’t think you give a shit about any of them. If all of the Ukrainians who died as a result of Putin’s aggression had died in some other way – plague, famine, natural disaster, etc. – I don’t think you would shed a single tear. Because you and your ilk really seem to be narcissistic assholes – “liberty for me and to hell with the rest of you”. I’d like to know why you claim to be anti-war as a matter of deeply held principle.

You think I support nonintervention because I support Trump.

I think you use nonintervention as a rationalization for why you think it is acceptable to support Trump.

what do you think of us supporting wars? How important is this issue to you?

I think being opposed to ALL war is foolish. There is such a thing as a ‘just war’. War in self-defense is, I think, self-evidently justifiable. I also think that those who claim to be strictly noninterventionist need to answer honestly and truthfully what they would have done in the 1930’s confronted with an aggressive totalitarian regime demanding more and more territory in Europe. Because I think the truthful answer is that the noninterventionist response of the Western powers in the 1930’s led directly to the Second World War and all of its horrors. If Hitler had been stopped when he was demanding the Rhineland or the Sudetenland, instead of giving in to him and only trying to stop him later when Germany was much stronger, how many lives would have been spared? I think that is what the knee-jerk noninterventionists need to account for. The analogies between 1930’s Hitler and 2020’s Putin are not that dissimilar.

[R Mac]

Sorry I confused you with the question mark, but I thought it was clear my comment was for lurkers. I’m not reading any of that Lying Jeffy.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Oh no worries. I never expected you to offer a serious response. I offered a serious answer only to expose you as a troll who doesn't give a shit really about anything. More of a nihilist really.

[R Mac]

How about a short summary?

[SQRLSY One]

Short summary: R Mack Who Talks and Snorts Smack is too lazy and-or stupid to read serious responses, and PROUD of shit! As serious people can clearly see! Listening to empty-headed R Mac is less informative than listening to a dog barking at nothing!

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

The "anti-war" angle is curious, considering how hard Trump tried to start one with Iran and how many drone strikes he personally authorized in Yemen. He did manage to effectively surrender to the Taliban and nearly "took their oil" in Syria (okay, maybe not), as well as kiss every single world dictator's ass (Putin, Il, Xi, bin Salman--was there anyone left?)

[Public Entelectual]

"there isn’t 60 million Ukrainians, "

There would be if Stalin hadn't shipped the Tatar half East of Samarkand. Their descendants are still trickling back to the Golden Chersonese.

[R Mac]

Damn that Stalin.

[SQRLSY One]

I’m surprised that you’d say that, since Precious Trumpy-Pooo ADORES Stalin!

(Ass He adores ALL DICKtatorShits and assholes!)

[Rev Arthur L kuckland]

Or Seth rich

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Gonzalo "I'm About to Cross The Border 1/3" Lira? I'm not sure Reason writing an article about him would raise his profile very much. Who tries to jump bail and flee a dangerous country after telling everyone on YouTube, Xitter and who knows where else (Telegram?) exactly what he plans to do?

Gonzalo Lira
@GonzaloLira1968
·
1 Aug 2023
Replying to
@GonzaloLira1968
I'm posting this thread just as I'm getting to the border checkpoint. I'm also posting videos on the two channels I have access to, The Roundtable and Gonzalo Lira—Again.

If you don't hear from me in the next 12 hours—whelp! I'm on my way to a labor camp!

Wish me luck.

25/25

[Beezard]

Good thing they let him die, then.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Of course not. But prison healthcare is appalling in many countries--unsurprisingly also in ones which have been fighting to survive an unprovoked invasion by a far stronger neighbor for two years.

I've said before, dying the way he did was a horrible way to go, but there is no evidence he was "murdered" or even tortured. He wasn't some kind of martyr, dying for the cause of journalism. His pro-Putin shtick was just his latest get rich quick scheme, one which turned out to be substantially more dangerous than his previous one coaching incels how to abuse women.

[Beezard]

The evidence is that his medical condition was ignored. For 8 months. It’s why he tried to flee. Even in the American prison context we put the blame on facilities who let prisoners in their custody die.

It’s why your arbitrary “difference between Navalny and Lira” makes no sense. If anything, Lira is an American citizen who dies in the custody of a regime we’re heavily subsidizing. It’s way more of a story than Navalny.

But I think you know that. Your job is to obfuscate.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

"The evidence is that his medical condition was ignored. For 8 months. It’s why he tried to flee."

What are you talking about? He was imprisoned after he tried to flee, not before. He died in the hospital, not on the run.

My job is in an entirely unrelated field!

[LIBertrans]

Xitter just about sums it up.

[rbike]

I was just listening to ABC news ( I am in a captive situation as my dad likes to watch it.) There will definitely be Russians lying to us. Soon. So we all need to be careful. Be especially careful of those with accents.

[Mother's Lament]

Everyone is Tail-Gunner Joe in 2024.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Ain’t it grand?

[Public Entelectual]

Be thankful only one of the candidates had the Tailgunner's lawyer on retainer.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

The left owns McCarthyism now.

[Bill Falcon]

I think the Israeli lobby and dual citizens are a bigger threat than Russia

[R Mac]

Random thing I stumbled upon. Might follow up, but felt like sharing:

https://www.lobbyists4good.org/

[chemjeff radical individualist]

https://www.lobbyists4good.org/sadnews

Lobbyists 4 Good has closed

Due to lack of funding, we have made the difficult decision to suspend our lobbying work at this time. Thank you to all of our amazing supporters who supported our work over the past five years.

Oh well, guess you have no choice but to support Trump now. Your hands are tied!

Well done.

[R Mac]

What a weird response.

[Rev Arthur L kuckland]

Did you read it? It's all bs progtards talking points. Those sub humans already have all the money they should ever need

[SRG2]

To the many defenders of Putin here, I suggest the following:
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/11/russia-to-build-migrant-village-for-conservative-american-expats-a81101

Apparently the project was halted but I'm sure that there are enough of you to justify restarting it. Perhaps you can elect Rucker Carlson mayor.

[Rev Arthur L kuckland]

Who here has defended put in?

[SRG2]

For example, everyone whose response to Navalny’s death, by deflecting from it, or who tries to make a moral equivalence between Russia/Putin and :Ukraine/Zelensky.

But it’s not really surprising. After all, Putin is a right-wing authoritarian, anti-gay, pro-“Christian family”, who Trump has praised and defended. How could the many right-wing authoritarians who infest this site not defend Putin? IF he is a murderous thug, well, regrettably Volodya isn’t perfect.

What do you think of Putin?

[Beezard]

I’m not defending Putin by equivocating. I’m defending American taxpayers and American rule of law. And in the case of Lira, an American citizen who died in Ukrainian custody.

[SRG2]

I don’t recall you in particular defending Putin.

And it’s quite possible to say Putin is a murderous thug and that his invasion of Ukraine was indefensible and monstrous while still holding to an isolationist view, for example. I don’t see much evidence from other posters who while arguing for the second are willing to say the first.

Condemning Putin should be an easy lift, no?

[Beezard]

Strictly on its own merits in a political vacuum, sure. He’s a thug. And he’s fully capable of killing Navalny. But the context here is that it’s being used to drag us into a war. And it’s being used when there are some fairly similar things being perpetrated in our own sphere.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Nobody's going to "go to war" over Putin killing more Russians.

Navalny (the "nobody" Putin poisoned because he was no threat) knew very well that returning to Russia was likely to result in his death. Or did he really think Putin wouldn't finish the job?

[Beezard]

Navalny’s death was directly invoked by the US president and many others as a reason to send another 60B to Ukraine, you gaslighting stooge.

And I think it highly unlikely an admitted corrupt politician, turned political opportunist (he pandered to ultra right AND communist parties), turned human rights grifter and western asset (via the world fellowship program) fits your bill as a self sacrificing hero.

He was released multiple times from prison. He only made it on Putins radar when he specifically got backing from the west

Backing Navalny no doubt thought would protect him somehow after he went to Germany.

But why are we even having this discussion when prisons are awful for health and people die there of natural causes all the time? As you have suggested in Lira’s case? Why do you doubt the prison doctors in Russia but not in Ukraine? Democracy?

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

You seem strangely attracted to me. Do I know you? Lol.

Nobody who has been paying any attention to Putin over the past 30 years could be surprised that Putin (allegedly) had Navalny killed. As a result, it would be an especially weak argument to suggest that THIS is the straw that broke the camel's back.

Navalny's death was entirely expected and had been predicted--even by himself.

I had certainly heard stories about how Navalny wasn't a pure as some in the West portrayed him, and I can believe that could be true. But I'm not especially interested in Russian politics and Navalny wasn't my hero. Nor have I doubted the prison doctors in Russia (what have they said?)

But he was almost certainly poisoned and imprisoned by Putin, and there must have been a reason for Putin to do that: He was perceived as a serious threat.

[LIBertrans]

See? Masked and anonymous Trumpanzees turn the Reason comments into a string of gloryhole booths where they snap at each other in between bouts of making the place malodorous to libertarians. Let them go barf on Elon's Twitter

[GraniteLiberty303]

Putin is a dictator and a thug. The question isn't whether or not Putin is a bad guy, there are lots of bad guys in the world some of whom are our allies and trading partners. The question is whether or not its in our national interest to defend Ukraine.

And given that our Congress can't put together a budget, and the Pentagon can't pass an audit, forgive people for being skeptical that this is a valid investment of our tax dollars. 34 trillion dollars in debt, can't defend our borders, can't reform our entitlement system, won't cut spending at all, yeah there is no reason for libertarians to jump on the send more money to Ukraine bandwagon.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

You didn't explain why it wasn't in the US national interest to prevent Russia from marching into neighboring European countries at will.

Presumably, you would have said the same thing in the 1930s?

[Beezard]

You haven’t explained why it’s in the US interest to provoke Russia in their own back yard. Using a defense treaty that was mostly obsolete after 1991. How many millions of Americans live in the Ukraine?

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

The "provoke Russia" line makes its first appearance...

[LIBertrans]

Is the treaty whereby Ukraine has NO nuclear weapons also mostly obsolete?

[GraniteLiberty303]

Not every situation is the same and your question is so lazy that it could be used to justify intervening in every crisis the world over. “This guy is Hitler! Quickly lets intervene!” Pretending that Russia is Nazi Germany is lazy at best and disingenuous at worst. Unless you’re lazy, or ignorant, enough to believe Russia wants to and has the capacity to conquer Europe.

What’s in our National Interest? For me its:

Protecting our homeland, protecting the Americas and the surrounding regions. Helping to defend Israel, Western Europe, Taiwan, Japan, and our other Asian Allies, through the sale of weapons, military bases, trade, etc. Things which will get harder to do if we continue to allow our economic power to erode.

Better questions to ask: Should Russia have stayed our permanent enemy after the fall of the Soviet Empire? Is there a limit to who should be in NATO? Should NATO include countries like Montenegro?

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

I submit it is in the US national interest to defend Europe (and not simply because I live there), and because the most significant threat to Europe right now is Putin, it follows that it is also in the US national interest to prevent Putin from threatening stability in Europe. Which he has already done, economically as well as militarily.

Stopping Putin in Ukraine, helping Ukrainians defend themselves, is a relatively cost-effective way for the US to do that. Moreover, the amount of money which is proposed to assist Ukraine is not going to even make a dent on the US' "economic power".

[LIBertrans]

Did someone mention Eurotrash? (https://bit.ly/48F4QKL)

[LIBertrans]

I especially liked "unjustly branded as a "foreign agent" by the Russian government..." Now look at girl-bullying MAGA Muskovites screeching and carpetbiting over TikTok not licking Trump's boots and tell me there's a difference.

[Jokibif0]

I really wish that the participants on this podcast, as well as the people at Reason who've written about Letitia James' prosecution of Trump, would more carefully distinguish between policy questions (should what Trump did be illegal?) and legal questions (was what Trump did actually illegal?). As I understand it (and this was referenced almost in passing in Sullum's recent article), the relevant law doesn't require that the prosecutor show that anyone's been harmed by this.

In the discussion on the policy question, I wish the participants would at least acknowledge that there are situations in which it is reasonable to sanction someone for behavior that didn't directly harm anyone (see the Volokh Conspiracy for examples, e.g. being arrested for driving drunk even when you haven't hit anyone), and argue that the Trump situation should not be regarded as an instance of that. Instead, we just have people saying over and over again "No one was harmed" as if that were a prima facie case for a law being bad policy. Of course, it's always *better* if sanctions against someone are a response to actual harm, but it's not always *required*.

Finally, is it really the case that it is common for real estate owners in NY to apply for loans in which they, e.g., value rent-controlled properties as if they were not rent-controlled, not to mention numerous other fairly egregious things that Trump did when applying for these loans? There's been a lot of focus on his claiming 3 times the floor space for one of his properties, but that was really the least of it.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

First time you've ever experienced propaganda, eh?

The people you're talking about know full well what they're doing. They know that the law Trump's been civilly prosecuted for violating doesn't require proof of harm. But they also know that most people are ignorant of the law, and if they keep pushing the same lie hard enough and often enough, some people will believe it. That is their only goal.

So stop pretending that there are just equal "participants" here, sincerely interacting in a mutual quest for understanding and truth. Wake the fuck up.

[Beezard]

You are propaganda.

[ObviouslyNotSpam]

Effective propaganda?

[LIBertrans]

Translation: WAAAAAAH!

[LIBertrans]

You had me at Katherine is in charge...