Where Does Big Tech End and Government Start?

Plus: It’s National School Choice Week.

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Where Does Big Tech End and Government Start?

In this week's The Reason Roundtable, editors Matt Welch, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Peter Suderman, and Nick Gillespie discuss the Facebook Files, which revealed the considerable influence the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) wielded in regard to what users were allowed to say on Meta platforms during the COVID-19 pandemic.

0:55: The CDC silenced COVID-19 dissent on Facebook.

27:25: Weekly Listener Question

36:53: National School Choice Week

55:09: This week's cultural recommendations

Mentioned in this podcast:

"How the CDC Became the Speech Police," by Robby Soave

"Inside the Facebook Files: Emails Reveal the CDC's Role in Silencing COVID-19 Dissent," by Robby Soave

"Emails Show CDC Policed COVID Speech on Facebook. Live with Robby Soave, Nick Gillespie, and Zach Weissmueller," by Zach Weissmueller and Nick Gillespie

"Inside the CDC's Campaign To Police COVID Speech," by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"The Biggest Education Innovation Is Growing Use of School Choice," by J.D. Tuccille

"Kentucky's Governor Wants School Choice for His Kids, But Not Yours," by J.D. Tuccille

"School Choice Is a Noble Cause," by John Stossel

"Does School Choice Help Students Learn? All Signs Point To Yes," by Nick Gillespie

"N.Y. Can't Teach Kids To Read on $30,000 a Year," by Nick Gillespie and Regan Taylor

"Watch Elizabeth Warren Lie About Her Son's Private School Education," by Nick Gillespie and John Osterhoudt

"It Can Happen Here," by Arnold Kling, David R. Henderson, and Maurice McTigue

Send your questions to [e-mail]. Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.

Today's sponsor:

• Self-reliance…planning ahead…using our heads. These are just a few of the things we believe in here at The Reason Roundtable. That's why we'd like to tell you about AirMedCare Network membership and how it can take a financial worry off your plate. AirMedCare Network is America's largest emergency air ambulance membership network. AirMedCare Network providers operate state-of-the-art helicopters. And their specially trained medical personnel provide the highest level of pre-hospital medical care in emergency situations. Even with insurance, these flights can be VERY expensive. But when you're an AirMedCare Network member, you won't see a bill for your flight when flown by one of their providers. This is a financial safety net you should have. Membership is amazingly affordable: only $99 per year and just $79 for seniors. And your entire household is covered. Right now, our listeners get up to an $80 Mastercard or Amazon electronic gift card when they join AMCN and use offer code: REASON. Simply visit AirMedCareNetwork.com/reason today.

Audio production by Ian Keyser
Assistant production by Hunt Beaty
Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve

What are we consuming this week?

Peter Suderman

• Brideshead Revisited

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• Sula: A Novel by Toni Morrison

Nick Gillespie

• Collabor(h)ate: How to build incredible collaborative relationships at work (even if you’d rather work alone)

Matt Welch

• The Met Cloisters

---

Comments

[Jerryskids]

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were questioning the Official Reason Narrative of muh private companies can do what they like. Not like there's some kind of weird amalgam of corporate/government interests working together for the good of society even if it goes against individual interests. I don't know what you'd even call such a system.

[sarcasmic]

Funny how they allow their minds to change as the available facts change. So weird.

[Nobartium]

Almost like they change when the agenda demands it.

[sarcasmic]

What agenda?

[Nobartium]

"Build you own XXX", "This isn't fascism", "I don't want to be mistaken for a republican".

Take your pick.

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[JesseAz]

Pushing narratives until facts too numerous to ignore. Then passively declaring things wrong but not too wrong and to meet in the middle.

[SQRLSY One]

JesseBahnFuhrer is no doubt DEEPLY worried about censorshit at Parler! Parler censors liberals techdirt https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/29/as-predicted-parler-is-banning-users-it-doesnt-like/

[Mother's Lament]

Again, Shillsy dishonestly pretends that the issue was with the companies censoring and not the government directing censorship.

You're a fascist fuck and a government shill. Never pretend you're a libertarian again.

[SQRLSY One]

The free market has spoken! Layoffs at Parler, https://sports.yahoo.com/parler-parent-company-laid-off-190200887.html#:~:text=As%20reported%20by%20the%20Verge,and%20Parler%20as%20of%20today.

QUICKLY now, Marxist Mammary-Necrophilia-ID-Thief-Fuhrer, enlist Government Almighty to FORCE people to patronize Parler, to SAVE this business! QUICK, like a bunny!

[Mother's Lament]

Parler sucks ass, and you're still trying to chaff and cover for the biggest first amendment violation operation in American history.

You're disgusting, Shillsy.

[Chumby]

When squirrel dons his Stormy Daniels costume and whores himself out, he gives the john a little extra if the rendezvous occurs at the local Best Western room 230.

[JesseAz]

Parler just got shut down by Amazon, Apple, and Google. Since they wouldn't bend the knee to them or government. Sqrsly supports that.

[JesseAz]

Even morally libertarians should be against censorship. But in terms of government not one fucking dollar spent in it.

Sqrsly is a fascist though.

[KristenAvila]

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[Don't look at me!]

Facts are facts. They don’t change.

[JesseAz]

Facts didn't change. You dismissed the evidence in pursuit of a narrative.

[Bill Dalasio]

The problem is the fact didn't change. As even the Reason staffers pointed out, the Twitter Files "didn't really tell us anything we didn't already know". They just refused to acknowledge them until it became impossible to ignore them. There haven't been any new COVID revelations that people weren't talking about for over a year already.

[SQRLSY One]

Vote for Trump! He'll FIX it all for us!

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/28/863932758/stung-by-twitter-trump-signs-executive-order-to-weaken-social-media-companies

Stung By Twitter, Trump Signs Executive Order To Weaken Social Media Companies

[Mother's Lament]

Look at this Nazi shit run cover for government censorship.

Why don't you tell everyone here what you were saying the other day? You know, how government censorship directives were actually the alphabet agencies "free speech" and legitimate.

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[Social Justice is neither]

If they had any principles beyond proggy defense they wouldn't be changing their story.

[DesigNate]

The facts were always there though. Psaki admitted on live tv that the Biden administration was flagging posts for “misinformation” all the way back in 2021.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Funny how they're changing their minds to align with their rabble-rouser commenters while not ever admitting that the rabble-rousers were right.

It's kind of like COVID. The narrative quietly changes without admitting that those Trumpy mcTrumpist "antivaxxers" were right all along.

Just delete a year's worth of tweets and move on.

[JesseAz]

Watching reason just ignore their past articles often dismissing the evidence of collusion is humorous.

[AnnEvans]

Google pay 200$ per hour my last pay check was $8500 working 1o hours a week online. My younger brother friend has been averaging 12000 for months now and he works about 22 hours a week. I cant believe how easy it was once I tried it outit.. ???? AND GOOD LUCK.:)
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[Inigo Montoya]

Ordinarily I’d say the name for an amalgam of corporate/government interests is fascism. But the WEF is exactly such an amalgam, but with the aim of nationalism that’s usually part of fascism. So in effect it’s international fascism.

[mad.casual]

Where Does Big Tech End and Government Start?

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^Right there.

[Don't look at me!]

No more mean tweets.

[Fats of Fury]

Where Does Big Tech End and Government Start?

Right under your nose.

[Nobartium]

What, no retarded listener question this week?

Guess they are getting tired of answering the peons.

[Mickey Rat]

May be the intern was sick this week.

[Don't look at me!]

No, I think I saw white Mike here.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

The listener questions are only submitted by the huge number of libertarians that breathlessly await the latest food truck expose but but can't find the comment button. ENB has patiently explained this but apparently you weren't paying attention. This was simply one of those rare weeks when everybody read the comments.

[Nobartium]

Dinner and sex?

ENB is a cheaper date then I thought.

[Chumby]

Big spoon

[SQRLSY One]

I'm still waiting to hear of ONE single case where USA Government Almighty used official USA Government Almighty powers to officially PUNISH a privately owned web site (owner or employee) for WRONG moderation of politics-news-opinions!!! And leave OUT conflating this shit with wars on hookers, drugs, whistle-blowers, and crackers of USA Government Almighty computer-files secrets! You lying CHEATERS always drag in ??? Eric Garner as KILLED for "wrong" web site moderation, etc.! Who next, was Jesus of Nazareth ALSO killed for "wrong" web site moderation? Get REAL here, people!

(And FUCK you enemies of Section 230 anyway!)

[I, Woodchipper]

just give up dude, you've lost

[SQRLSY One]

I’m still waiting to hear of ONE single case where USA Government Almighty used official USA Government Almighty powers to officially PUNISH a privately owned web site (owner or employee) for WRONG moderation of politics-news-opinions posts!!!

STILL WAITING!!!! Enemies of Section 230 have LOST, and are (still) LOSERS!

[Mother's Lament]

No matter how much you lie about him and try to discredit them, WikiLeaks and Julian Assange.

Now entertain us by copypasting 500 lines of CIA propaganda, and a couple of links you haven't actually read but have headlines that fit your narrative.

Dishonest, disgusting authoritarian fuck.

[SQRLSY One]

So what’s Your Perfect “fix”, then, Perfect Mammary-Fuhrer? IF ONLY Section 230 had been torn down, and Assange had NOT released his hacked secret files, himself, directly on Wikileaks, but had, instead, POSTED them (as comments) on Reason.com, we could have blamed Reason.com, instead, for “publishing” them, and now, Assange would be totally FREE of all this crap? THAT is the anti-Section-230 “fix”, right, right-wing wrong-nut?

[SQRLSY One]

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10291
“The indictment alleges that, in March 2010, Assange agreed to assist Manning in “cracking” a password stored on Department of Defense computers in order to access classified records. ”

NOTHING to do with Assange indulging in “wrong moderation” of the posts of others! NOTHING to do with PROVING the Great Mammary-Fuhrer’s case that the Sacred Perfect LAWS of Government Almighty would do such a MUCH better job of moderating the posts of PRIVATE WEB SITE OWNERS, than the owners of said web sites could do, on their own!
WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE ALLEGED FAULTS OF SECTION 230?
Further above (previously), You said that “He (Assange) didn’t even publish everything, instead releasing only that which showed the government deliberately breaking laws.”
Well, Great Genius, I leave it to You to decode the following: What happens if every Tom, Dick, and Harry gets to rifle through all of the USA’s secret files, and DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES what should be released, and what should NOT be released? Are You perhaps honest and intelligent enough to see that THERE WOULD BE NO SECRETS LEFT!!! Hello?! Nuke secrets, war plans, IDs of embedded agents, HELLO?!?! Are You cracking (or in favor of cracking) into computers in Russia, Iran, and North Korea, or ONLY into computers in the USA? WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON? WHO are You working for, and WHY do You Perfectly HATE the USA? Crack any passwords and intrude lately, or help others do so, Perfect ID-Thief?

[Mother's Lament]

You’re repeating the official CIA narrative that writers right here at Reason and many other places have already thoroughly discredited. They claimed that motive was cracking when there's no evidence for that and it's clearly revenge.

Some of those articles you actually commented on in the past. And now you’re going pretending that you never read them, because you’re trying to prop up your delusional narrative that your sacred gov gods would never prosecute a webmaster for political reasons.

Do you even listen to yourself?

[SQRLSY One]

Hey Mammary-Fuhrer… Maybe You really ARE Jesus come back to us all, to FIX it all, and let the “meek inherit the Earth” and bring peace among all of the nations! HERE is what You need to do to persuade the rest of us: Since the USA is SUCH a benighted, ugly nation, which punishes people for cracking (or helping to crack) secret national security files, you need to travel to an ADVANCED, benevolent nation like North Korea, and crack THEIR secret files, without advance permission, and DECIDE FOR YOURSELF which files should be released! And let the (North Korean) courts straighten it out later! If North Korea will Show Us the Way, as led by Perfect YOU, many-many of us will then really be convinced that You ARE indeed, Jesus come back to SAVE us all!

[I, Woodchipper]

he's a fed

[Chumby]

Fed? Well fed squirrels munch on nuts.

[TJJ2000]

“I’m still waiting to hear of ONE single case where USA Government Almighty used official USA Government Almighty powers to officially PUNISH a privately owned web site (owner or employee) for WRONG moderation of politics-news-opinions!!!”

They were PUNISHED by being refused moderation funding from Government… Did you not hear Twitter received $3M for government moderation or are you just being ignorant?

Censorship; One of the many blessings of National Sozialism(Nazism).

[SQRLSY One]

FBI reimbursed Twitter for doing its dirty work on usershttps://nypost.com › 2022/12/19 › fbi-reimbursed-twitt...
Dec 19, 2022 — The FBI paid Twitter nearly $3.5 million of taxpayer cash to ban accounts largely linked to conservative voices and target so-called ...

https://nypost.com/2022/12/19/fbi-reimbursed-twitter-for-doing-its-dirty-work-on-users/

I had NOT heard that! Thanks, TJJ, for bringing some actual FACTS to the table, which is often rare or missing in these poo-flinging, grade-school name-calling hissy fits around here! Now THIS item IS indicative of some VERY serious troubles in Government Almighty! Enforcing Section 230 doesn't help with THIS one! (But tearing down S-230 will only make things worse.)

[TJJ2000]

UR most certainly welcome. I apologize for assuming the worst.

And I agree; Repealing Section 230 is just throwing gasoline on the fire and a dumb idea. Thankfully; that’s not what the House Republicans are doing currently.

[Overt]

SQRLSY argues in bad faith.

I weep for the person who actually thinks SQRLSY cares about actual evidence of businesses being punished for their private speech (or allowing speech on their platforms). As we can see at the link below, people such as myself have explained repeatedly that his demand for “names of jailed people” is fallacious reasoning.

https://reason.com/2023/01/10/house-republicans-to-probe-white-house-pressure-on-social-media-companies/?comments=true#comment-9870269

But SQRLSY doesn’t care- he will repeat this time and again, and when people point out his faulty reasoning, he will then shift to some BOTH SIDES stuff, and finally he will insist that it really isn’t a big deal. It is like playing the same level in a terrible video game over and over again, and when you beat it, you start at the beginning of the same shitty level all over again.

Those assholes who complain about the Mean Girls are nothing but hypocrites. SQRLSY wails and gnashes his teeth about how those Trumpers are just RUINING the comments here. But shit posts are easy to skip past. Posting the same, tired, fallacious argument over and over again, without ever acknowledging the counter arguments is even worse. Because he is pretending to be interested in actual discussion when he is really just engaged in exactly the same toxic bullshit.

[Chumby]

We were given a mute button. Just sayin.

[DesigNate]

He belongs right next to Herr Misek.

[tracerv]

Exactly. He adds nothing to the conversation.

[EnriqueGragg]

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[SQRLSY One]

Overt-quote below:

1) The government can, and often does, get its way by THREATENING to fine, jail or otherwise disrupt entities.

SQRLSY here: And Government Almighty's bad actors FIRST threat is to take down Section 230, so that they CAN do this to begin with! And then the likes of Mammary-Fuhrer fall RIGHT in line with Government Almighty's bad actors and say... Yeah, ya GOT it! Take DOWN Section 230, so that I can MAKE THE LIBS CRY!!! Power pigs!!!!

[TJJ2000]

The Republican right-now are pushing to investigate and LIMIT Federal Government’s violations of 1A in Social Media. Which is exactly what they should be doing.

But I’m sure you will focus entirely and relentlessly on old news you can use to blame a [R] for what the [D]s ARE DOING. Because PROJECTION is your favorite game.

Ya know; EXACTLY like you've been running around blaming Parlor for having DEMOCRATS shut them down. Projection, Projection, Projection. Blame the Victim for what the Criminal did.

[SQRLSY One]

Both sides!

So your “fix” for this is to vote for Trump again? Or for Josh Hawley? https://reason.com/2019/03/01/josh-hawley-section-230-big-tech-cpac/ Sen. Josh Hawley Rails Against ‘Big Tech,’ Anti-Conservative Bias, and Section 230
https://reason.com/2019/06/25/the-moral-scolds-new-illiberal-right-internet-hawley-230/ The Moral Scolds of the New Illiberal Right Are Coming For Your Internet
From Sohrab Ahmari to Josh Hawley, what the new right really wants is to squelch free expression.
TRUST in us, just TRUST in us, they say!!!

[TJJ2000]

2019... UR 4-Years behind and cherry-picking positions at best.
While you continue to IGNORE what the Democrats have been up to.

[Overt]

Everybody note that, once again, SQRLSY has changed his argument without acknowledging his error in making it. Again, this is his bad-faith arguing on display.

Notice that nothing he said was responsive. He has abandoned insisting that censorship only happens when people are punished. Now he is distracting with a canard about 230. Point out that 230 has done nothing to prevent the censorship that is happening right now, and SQRLS will bring up some nonsense about Trump's executive orders 4 years ago. And then he will argue that this isn't really a big deal, and people should just boycott twitter.

Notice that the one thing he will not do is admit that the government is CURRENTLY engaged in a campaign of censorship by proxy- that the current administration and the FBI have institutional departments dedicated to an unconstitutional practice- identifying and requesting the removal of information the government doesn't like. SQRLSY will try to get us to talk about ANYTHING except that fact. Because confronting that fact makes him uncomfortable. If we aren't arguing about Trump and Deplorables, he is very uncomfortable.

Next week he will be back here posting exactly the same "Show me who was JAILED!!111!1One!" nonsense that he knows is fallacious reasoning. I advise everyone bail out on his mad tea-cups ride now, rather than indulging his shit further.

[I, Woodchipper]

banning trump from twitter was Good For Democracy and letting him back on to post juvenile mean tweets is fascism, doncha know

[TJJ2000]

+1000; Hit that one head-on.
The Course description for Leftardism 101.

*Real* fascism is Anti-fascism indoctrination. Think we have a whole GANG out there worshiping that idiocy (i.e. AntiFa).

[Gaear Grimsrud]

It is really pathetic to watch Reason desperately try to rehabilitate itself. Every single editor and intern told us for years that censorship by private companies was totally cool and probably a good thing. Even when the Biden administration announced from the White House press room who they were telling private companies to censor, Reason continued to support government censorship. When Elon Musk bought Twitter and announced that it would become a free speech zone, ENB went into total freakout and wrote an entire article promoting Mastodon. Reason has pissed away any credibility they might have had. Just stop.

[I, Woodchipper]

^ yep

[TJJ2000]

Way too much truth there… Yet; In this day and age Reason is still the only place that allows Non-Nazi comments to exist. You can’t say the word *Constitution* on most comment boards without having your account banned.

Which humorously fits quite well with the Obama Administrations FBI website specifically stating believers in the Constitution was a suspicion of terrorism. No joke; It was right there on the FBI website as things to watch for from 'terrorists'.

[mad.casual]

Even when the Biden administration announced from the White House press room who they were telling private companies to censor

Even before then. Every instance of government intrusion to say, "Things with the word 'milk' on them should actually contain *milk*." or "Bikini baristas should either be forced to wear boyshorts or have counters above both asscheek and an 8-yr.-old's eyeline height." or "Citizens shouldn't be able to dox crime victims before police have all the facts." was unequivocally 'chilling to free speech' even if it was straight up one citizen or a group of them vs. another. Private businesses with doors labeled "Ladies" and "Gentlemen" was an unacceptable form of private oppression and anybody who thought different was just engaging in a moral panic.

But multiple cases of a dozen or more businesses deplatforming people across a half dozen separate industries with all of the execs involved saying oblique things like, "It wasn't our decision to make." was just private decision-making. Reason was in full-on denial until the signed copies of Aktion T4 were published.

[Utkonos]

Big Tech/Big Government
Does anyone know of a good divorce attorney?
Sincerely,
Born & Raised In Santa Clara Valley /Stuck In Shiticon

[TJJ2000]

LOL... Excellent. What RU a homophobe? Everyone has to take it in the #%@ for the *special* relationships or it's not equality! /s

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[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

I'm trying to figure out if the libertarian standard-bearer asking this question could be considered progress, or an admission that it's worse than we thought.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

I can't help myself and wonder if it's appropriate to become all Jules from Pulp Fiction: Your ass ain't talkin' your way outta this shit.

[Utkonos]

Damn it, you just broke my concentration with that!

[Utkonos]

Shoot, man!

[RENATA the rational]

What is the besetting error of Libertarians? It is actually two-fold;
1) Stopping any time you hit a moral or ethical part of the causal chain.
2) Thinking that if you attack the cat you wound the lion.

Yesterday I saw the Netherlands was fighting farmers in the name of Climate Change but then I have to despise that after seeing this, which governments around the world have enabled:

"Amazon generated 465 million pounds of plastic packaging waste last year. This is comprised of the air pillows, bubble wrap, and other plastic packaging items added to the approximately 7 billion Amazon packages delivered in 2019, according to news accounts. The report found that Amazon’s estimated plastic packaging waste, in the form of air pillows alone, would circle the Earth more than 500 times."

You all will be fighting cow farts while the world writhes in death agony from Amazon.

[Childhood reader of SCOTUS opinions, really]

So to the best of my knowledge, you mocked Paul Pelosi conspiracy theories but in 100's of comments no mention of "Nancy Pelosi Had Priests Attempt Exorcism Of Her Home After Attack On Husband, Daughter Says"

Do you think she has an exorcism on a regular basis 🙂

[Jhona Gramm]

The line between big tech and government can be blurred and it is a complex and ongoing debate. Big tech companies like Amazon, Google, and Facebook have a significant impact on people's lives and have vast amounts of personal data, making them potential partners or targets for government agencies. On the other hand, governments have the power to regulate these tech companies and hold them accountable for their actions.

Some argue that the government should step in to regulate big tech companies to protect consumers' privacy and prevent the spread of misinformation, while others believe that such regulation could stifle innovation and limit the free market.

Ultimately, the relationship between big tech and the government will depend on the specific context and the balance between individual rights, economic interests, and national security. As technology continues to evolve, this issue will likely continue to be a source of debate and discussions for governments and society as a whole.