The FBI Thinks Renee Good's Anti-ICE Activism Is Relevant in Deciding Whether Killing Her Was Justified
It is hard to see how, since that question hinges on what happened the morning that an ICE agent shot her.
A few hours after an immigration agent fatally shot Renee Good in Minneapolis last Wednesday, Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem said the 37-year-old activist was engaged in "domestic terrorism" at the time of her death. "This is classic terrorism," Vice President J.D. Vance agreed the next day. Noem reiterated that description during a contentious interview with CNN's Jake Tapper on Sunday, saying, "If you look at what the definition of domestic terrorism is, it completely fits the situation on the ground."
FBI agents charged with investigating the shooting reportedly are now trying to support that characterization by examining Good's ties to groups that oppose the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) crackdown in Minneapolis. Federal investigators are also looking into protest activities by Good's widow, who was with her when ICE agent Jonathan Ross killed her. That focus on anti-ICE activism, which on Tuesday prompted the resignation of six career prosecutors in the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Minnesota, raises new questions about a probe that is supposed to determine whether Ross' use of deadly force was legally justified.
The reliability of that investigation was already in doubt for two reasons. First, Noem, Vance, and President Donald Trump have prejudged the outcome by declaring that Ross acted in self-defense. Second, Drew Evans, superintendent of the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, complained that the U.S. Attorney's Office, after initially indicating that his agency would be included in the investigation, reversed course, saying the probe "would now be led solely by the FBI."
The FBI's interest in Good's history of activism suggests an attempt to obscure the central legal issue raised by the shooting: Did Ross reasonably believe, given "the totality of the circumstances," that shooting Good was necessary to protect himself, his colleagues, or the general public from the threat she allegedly posed when she began to drive away after she was confronted by ICE agents who ordered her to get out of her car? The FBI's investigative tangent also raises the question of exactly what Noem and Vance mean by "domestic terrorism"—in particular, whether they define that term so broadly that it includes conduct protected by the First Amendment. Spoiler alert: They do.
On the day of the shooting, Noem said Good was a domestic terrorist because she "weaponize[d] her vehicle" by "attempt[ing] to run a law enforcement officer over," which "appear[ed] to be an attempt to kill or to cause bodily harm to [ICE] agents." She said Ross, "fearing for his life and the other officers around him and the safety of the public," fired "defensive shots." Vance concurred that Ross "fired in self defense" because "his life was endangered." But he also tied Good to anti-ICE protesters who are "assaulting and inciting violence against our law enforcement officers," declaring that "we're not going to give in to terrorism."
That terrorism, Vance averred, included "people trying to antagonize" ICE agents as well as people committing "acts of violence" such as "throw[ing] bricks" or firing guns. "Sometimes they dox them," he added. "Sometimes they go to their place of residence and harass their families. This is classic terrorism."
Is it? Under federal law, "domestic terrorism" involves criminal acts "dangerous to human life" that aim to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population," "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion," or "affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping."
Some of the actions that Vance described, such as lobbing bricks at ICE agents or shooting at them, fit that definition. But other tactics he mentioned, such as revealing the identities of ICE agents or "trying to antagonize" them in unspecified ways, sound like constitutionally protected speech.
As Reason's C.J. Ciaramella notes, Noem likewise has sought to expand the definition of domestic terrorism. Speaking to reporters last July, she said "violence" against ICE agents is "anything that threatens them and their safety," such as "doxing them" or "videotaping them where they're at when they're out on operations." Publicizing ICE operations qualifies as "violence," she suggested, because it "encourag[es] other people to come and to throw things" such as "rocks" and "bottles."
That view is consistent with Attorney General Pam Bondi's take. In a December 4 memo to federal prosecutors aimed at "countering domestic terrorism," Bondi echoed Trump's concern about the left-wing beliefs he blames for inspiring political violence. She quoted the statutory definition of domestic terrorism but then stretched it to include "organized doxing of law enforcement," "impeding" federal officers, and unspecified "targeting of public officials or other political actors."
Noem's department defines such "terrorism" broadly. Ciaramella notes that Tricia McLaughlin, assistant secretary for public affairs at the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), says "doxing" includes "videotaping ICE law enforcement and posting photos and videos of them online." McLaughlin added that "we will prosecute those who illegally harass ICE agents to the fullest extent of the law." Following or recording ICE agents as they perform their public duties, DHS told Ciaramella, "sure sounds like obstruction of justice."
When Noem and Vance aver that Good was involved in "domestic terrorism," in short, they are not referring merely to her alleged assault on Ross. They are talking about a broader pattern of anti-ICE activity that includes nonviolent, constitutionally protected conduct.
On the morning of the shooting, Good had positioned her Honda Pilot sideways on Portland Avenue, near several unmarked ICE vehicles. The SUV was there a few minutes before ICE agents approached it. Although Noem claimed Good "was blocking the officers in with her vehicle," bystander video shows other cars passing the SUV, using the lane that was still open. Here is how Good's widow described what she and her wife were doing in a statement to Minnesota Public Radio: "On Wednesday, January 7th, we stopped to support our neighbors. We had whistles. They [the ICE agents] had guns."
Cell phone video that Ross recorded suggests Good and her wife were involved in ongoing protests against ICE operations in Minneapolis. Good's wife, who is wearing an orange whistle around her neck, is recording Ross as he records her. "We don't change our plates every morning, just so you know," she tells Ross. "It'll be the same plate when you come talk to us later."
Online documents that Good shared with parents at her son's school, where she served on the board, reinforce the impression that her activism predated her fatal encounter with Ross. "Thank you to families who have been on ICE watch, helping to protect their neighbors," Good said in a December 16 message described by CNN. She linked to a training document that explains how to obtain those orange whistles, which protesters use to alert the neighborhood when they see ICE agents. "ICE are untrained bullies looking for easy targets," it says. "Neighbors showing up have saved lives."
That document linked to "another guide" that "stresses nonviolent responses to ICE agents, while also encouraging a refusal to 'comply with demands, requests, and orders,'" CNN reports. "It suggests 'creative tactics,' noting that 'crowds, props, traffic, and noise can make detentions difficult [and] sometimes ICE vehicles can't move ("whoops!").' It does not specifically suggest blocking operations with a vehicle."
If that is what Good was trying to do, the ICE agents had a legitimate beef with her, and so did the motorists who had to drive around her SUV that morning. But it would be quite a stretch to describe such nonviolent tactics as "domestic terrorism," and it would be even more misleading to put perfectly legal conduct such as blowing the whistle on ICE, whether literally or figuratively, in that category.
Let's assume the FBI's investigation confirms what already seems pretty clear: that Good and her wife, who moved to Minneapolis in 2025, soon became involved in anti-ICE protests there. In what way does that illuminate the question of whether Ross was legally justified in shooting her?
Noem, Vance, and Trump say Good deliberately tried to run Ross down. That seems doubtful given her pleasant demeanor in Ross' video and the fact that she was steering to the right, away from the ICE agents, when he shot her.
Noem, Vance, and Trump also say Good's car actually struck Ross, who was standing near the left headlight when the SUV began moving forward after backing up a bit. It is hard to tell from the video evidence whether that is true, although it seems clear that any injury he suffered must have been pretty minor, since he is seen walking around without obvious difficulty after the shooting.*
Neither point is crucial in determining whether this use of force was "objectively reasonable." Even if Good was simply trying to leave rather than trying to assault Ross, and regardless of whether the car made contact with him, it would have been reasonable for him to worry about his safety when the SUV began moving, since he had positioned himself (contrary to standard police training) in front of the vehicle.
Ross quickly moved out of the way, the solution that the Justice Department recommends in situations like this. It's not clear whether he was still in the vehicle's path when he fired the first shot, which hit the lower left corner of the windshield. But he was clearly not in the SUV's path when he fired the second and third shots, which entered the car through the side window next to the driver's seat. When Tapper asked Noem about the justification for those shots, she noted that Ross was making a "split-second" decision, which might count in his favor even if that decision seems mistaken in retrospect.
That's assuming it made sense to think shooting Good was an effective way to neutralize the threat her car allegedly posed. The actual result was that the SUV careened down the street without guidance, stopping only after it crashed into a car parked on the left side. If anything, Ross aggravated any danger the car may have posed by killing the person who was steering it.
However you weigh those factors, Good's opinions about immigration enforcement, as reflected in her prior activism, seem irrelevant in assessing Ross' conduct. Even if she was a committed anti-ICE activist (as the documents described by CNN suggest), that hardly means she was bent on killing an immigration agent with her car. And at the time, Ross knew nothing about Good's background, so that information could not possibly have influenced his perception of the danger she posed.
"There's nothing in there that suggests attacking ICE agents or engaging in any other form of physical harm or property damage," William and Mary law professor Timothy Zick, the author of a book about the right to protest, told CNN. "This is Authoritarianism 101, where you blame the dissenters and the activists for causing their own death."
Trump reinforced that impression on Sunday. "At a very minimum," he told reporters, "that woman was very, very disrespectful to law enforcement." Good's decision to disregard an ICE agent's order to "get out of the fucking car" certainly seems reckless, especially in retrospect, but it surely was not a capital offense. And more generally, her "disrespectful" attitude toward ICE, which the FBI seems bent on confirming, tells us nothing about the legal justification for killing her.
*Addendum: On Wednesday, the New York Post, citing an unnamed DHS official, reported that Ross "suffered internal bleeding after being clipped," adding that the official "did not elaborate on how severe the internal bleeding was." CBS News likewise said "it was unclear how extensive the bleeding was," noting that, according to Noem, Ross was treated at a hospital and released the same day.
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popcorn and mute button ready
Hope you choke on the popcorn; the world will be measurably more intelligent.
Hoping the popcorn mutes you.
BJ;dr
that's cute snowflake, clutch at pearls all you like. she's still dead for being a retard.
And, unfortunately, BJ isn't. But given that BJ is a 'tard, we can hope.
No one cares you retarded pinko.
No shit. Actually, the retarded lesbian cosplaying revolutionaries prior actions during that day leading up to her justified shooting are entirely relevant to the investigation.
Her antagonism and unlawful activities are irrelevant? Maybe so if all you care about is Ross's legitimate self-defense claim.
Let's talk about Rittenhouse. Was his unnecessary presence at the protest (riot) irrelevant in his case? Legally it's irrelevant, but it certainly was a talking point in attempting to invalidate his right to self-defense.
Your dishonest arguments can be rejected on their face because you aren't willing to honestly relate or evaluate any of the circumstances.
When will we see her widow's livestream/video recording made at the same time as the ICE agents cellphone video?
Activists think that all federal agents are supposed to be like the Tower Guards at Buckingham Palace, stone-faced, stoic no matter what is said/done to them - this was classic FAFO, the two of them (victim and widow) were busy smugly (arrogantly) amping-up the situation, then the victim made a stupid mistake and drove into the agent, whose "I've been dragged for 100 yards before by one of these crazies, I'm not doing that again" sense kicked in and he pulled the trigger.
The victim's widow stood by and taunted the agent and yelled DRIVE and her partner did just that, and took a bullet.
It's tragic, it didn't have to happen, but it IS IMPORTANT to establish she wasn't just a flustered Karen caught up in this when she was just trying to get back home after dropping her kid off at school -she and her partner (the videographer) dropped their kid off at school and spent the morning yelling at and trailing ICE agents trying to do their job.
The two women intentionally inserted themselves into this situation and did everything they could to ramp up the drama for social media 'likes', and it cost some children their mom.
Again, when will we see the widow's video recordings from that morning?
Afterwards, the 'wife" cried out to the ICE agents, "Why did you have real bullets!?"
These anti ICE protesters/obstructionists think they are in a movie and they are the righteous main characters.
In their reality there are no consequences for their actions.
This time they found out that reality can be a bitch.
""These anti ICE protesters/obstructionists think they are in a movie and they are the righteous main characters.""
I think they grew up in very protective environments where consequences were practically nonexistent.
It is we can do whatever we want. and you can't touch us attitude.
No one ever said: "No!" to them.
The Biden Administration and leftist Judges/DA's have taught them over the last several years that they can do about anything including loot, arson and assault with no consequences. Now that someone is holding them to account they are shocked.
Sometimes the main character dies in the third act.
Don't look now but the "wife" and family have hired the St Floyd attorney so look for a giant payout demand. The fighting between the lesbian lover who shouted "Drive, Baby, Drive" which resulted in Good being killed and the kids grandfather over the $1 million plus GoFundMe is going to be a sideshow if they manage to get some bucks out of the government.
Discovery is gonna be hilarious.
"What do you mean you destroyed your phone with the close up recording of your wife's final minutes leading up to this tragic incident?"
He was lucky he was dealing with women drivers. Otherwise he would have been toast.
Much was made of the membership of some of the J6 protesters in the Proud Boys -- I feel certain a similar justification applies to left-wing group members.
BINGO!
And to top it off, these useful idiots didn't EVEN need to be led on by the FBI.
Bunch of bootlicking gooseteppers in this forum. Certainly not libertarians.
Precedent was set in the case of Kirby v. Duva 2008 which states that deadly force cannot be used to prevent the escape of an unarmed, non-dangerous fleeing suspect. The ruling also supports the idea that an officer's use of deadly force may be deemed excessive if the officer UNREASONABLY PLACES THEMSELVES in harm's way in the first place, rather than utilizing safer alternatives. Also see:
Adams v Speers
Abraham v Roso
"...Certainly not libertarians..."
You've proven yourself to be a TDS-addled steaming pile of lying lefty shit, so you have no standing to comment, asswipe.
Excellent point! I viewed the video that the Ross dude recorded. It seemed like he circled the car and deliberately walked along the edge of the car's path and possibly walked into the path as the chick was slowly pulling away. It seemed like he could easily have avoided trouble by staying out of the street in the car's path, but sought it out. It seemed like he deliberately maneuvered in such a way to provide justification for shooting.
Sevo, you're an embarrassment. He's right. You need to become more libertarian and less socially conservative. Hmmm...maybe you should be more socially conservative considering the obscene scatological language you use. I thought social conservatives were opposed to the use of obscenities. You need to be more grateful to Reason. Who else but libertarians would be as tolerant of your scatological obsession? I wonder if Breitbart would be as tolerant.
This is as weak and pathetic when atheists tell Christians what Christianity means.
You have zero libertarian beliefs.
Nor anything like a claim to principles, other than pathologic dishonesty.
I doubt you’ve even read about libertarians. The fact is that Good got herself killed because she went looking for trouble and then tripled down. Requiring that bravery ICE officer to out her down like the rabid vermin she was.
I encourage you to follow her example. Or avail yourself of this:
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html
"...Your dishonest arguments can be rejected on their face because you aren't willing to honestly relate or evaluate any of the circumstances..."
The TDS-addled lying pile of steaming shit Sullum needs to be reminded if this at every opportunity; he deserves nothing other.
Fuck you with a barb-wire-wrapped baseball bat, you pathetic pile of shit.
Reason needs to change it's tagline to "Libertarians for political violence and doxxing so long as it furthers the Marxist revolution."
Sorry but trying to run over an officer doing his job aiming to halt that job/policy as part of a politically motivated group would fall under that that domestic terrorism definition. She wasn't some innocent soccer mom there by accident.
Reason is not much on the NAP.
Exactly. It's the most basic principle of libertarianism and they don't use or mention it with any frequency. Matters of opinion aside, this is one of the biggest indictments against Reason's claim to be libertarian.
Yep. It's never really difficult to spot a phony. Or a whole bunch of them, since they trend toward the herd mentality.
Bunch of bootlicking gooseteppers in this forum. Certainly not libertarians. Imagine supporting State murder/bullying/terror and a clearly dictatorial/fascist president/administration over protesting citizens. You people are sick af
"...Bunch of bootlicking gooseteppers in this forum..."
Wasn't until you showed up, asswipe. Fuck off and die.
You continue to prove you can hold no more than one thought in your head at any time.
They’re not much libertarianism.
But other tactics he mentioned, such as revealing the identities of ICE agents or "trying to antagonize" them in unspecified ways, sound like constitutionally protected speech.
Don’t mind me, just testing out my new Waltz-meter
Telling ice agents you know who their kids are and where the kids go to school is kosher in jacobs world.
The mob really didnt want bad things to happen to those business owners after all.
"Trying to run over" was the initial ICE defense. If anyone believed this, and if any video showed this, they would not be talking about "but she was an ICE raid opponent," or "who cares, ICE is immune and can murder with impunity." Those you are defending have already refuted you.
Was the officer hit, yes or no dumdum?
It is amazing watching liberals twist and turn to really dumb arguments.
He was so traumatized by his assailant's lethal rear view mirror attack that it took him two days to notice the bruise .
He was taken to the hospital the same day. Why lie? Embarassed by your irrelevant contributions here?
It must suck being so irrelevant.
It must suck being Public Entelectual, the asshole running the lying watermelon website.
Not only did he go to the hospital right after the incident, he might have died if he hadn’t. He was diagnosed with internal bleeding, which can be fatal, if not diagnosed promptly. He was discharged later that day after the doctors involved identify the bleeds, and stopped any bleeding that they found. Then advised to take the next couple days off, and keep his eyes, and those of his family, open in order to see any other internal bleeds that had been missed earlier.
Don’t know where the left got the idea that he didn’t go to the hospital for two days. When the knowledge of the incident came out, the day it happened, it was quickly known that the ICE Agent had been transported to the hospital. And later, we found out that he had been released.
If he had any internal bleeding, he would not have been released so quickly. I wonder what the actual diagnoses was. It seems like he went to the hospital to try to portray himself as injured to try to justify a bad shoot.
"The Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent who fatally shot Renee Good last week in Minneapolis, Jonathan Ross, suffered internal bleeding to the torso following the incident, according to two U.S. officials briefed on his medical condition."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ice-officer-who-shot-renee-good-internal-injuries-sources-say/
49 mph is 78.85786 kmph.
Walz +8
Got anything else for us RetardGPT.
Man, you guys are working hard to out retard each other, but I think freedumbwriter has this one on lockdown.
The FBI Thinks Renee Good's Anti-ICE Activism Is Relevant in Deciding Whether Killing Her Was Justified
It is hard to see how, since that question hinges on what happened the morning that an ICE agent shot her.
In a law and order courtroom scene I would expect after the objection was raised the prosecution would reply "goes to motive"
In Sullum's world what the person was doing in the moments that led to the fatal shooting are irrelevant. Parking a a vehicle in the middle of the street is no big deal if somebody can get around it. trying to flee when an LEO orders you out of your illegally parked vehicle has no relevance to the shooting. Whether or not she hit the officer and injured him is also irrelevant. The idea that free speech grants a right to create an dangerous situation and be relieved of responsibility when it goes pear shaped is an outrageous assertion.
Sullum seems to imagine that "libertarianism" means a total lack of responsibility for your actions, and, in his case, a total lack of responsibility for continually lying.
Oh, and the steaming pile of TDS-addled lying shit should fuck off and die. To make his family proud and the world more intelligent by removing a pathetic pile of imbecilic shit with an IQ approaching his shoe size.
Stuff it up your ass, Sullum, and then fuck off and die, shitstain.
It's the J6 issue: were these two peaceful protesters or violent insurrectionists pretending to be peaceful protesters?
You can keep lying all you want, nobody believes you.
But what is the acceleration of his lies?
Ray Charles looked at those vids and said it was obvious that she was either trying to run him down or at least acting with disregard for his safety.
You've just proven to have ignored them or of being even more blind than him.
Bunch of bootlicking gooseteppers in this forum. Certainly not libertarians. Imagine supporting State murder/bullying/terror over protesting citizens. You people are sick af
Not until you showed up, asswipe. Fuck off and die.
Seethe harder you retarded pinko. We’re just getting started. And we know none of you can control yourselves, so it’s just a matter of time before you start a civil war and you can all be exterminated.
America’s salvation shall ultimately be built on a foundation of Marxist skulls, and through your own doing.
Cope and seethe more that you motherfuckers keep failing at stopping ICE from apprehending murderers and pedos.
"FBI agents charged with investigating the shooting reportedly are now trying to support that characterization by examining Good's ties to groups that oppose the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) crackdown in Minneapolis."
Given that ICE Watch directly insists on physically interfering with immigration enforcement, it is actually very legitimate to investigate.
"Second, Drew Evans, superintendent of the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, complained that the U.S. Attorney's Office, after initially indicating that his agency would be included in the investigation, reversed course, saying the probe "would now be led solely by the FBI.""
What? The same state that refuses to cooperate with the Feds is upset the Feds won't cooperate with them? Get the fuck outta town!
"When Noem and Vance aver that Good was involved in "domestic terrorism," in short, they are not referring merely to her alleged assault on Ross. They are talking about a broader pattern of anti-ICE activity that includes nonviolent, constitutionally protected conduct."
The increase in physical attacks on ICE agents is note...not by the author, who is an imbecile.
"Ross quickly moved out of the way, the solution that the Justice Department recommends in situations like this. It's not clear whether he was still in the vehicle's path when he fired the first shot, which hit the lower left corner of the windshield. But he was clearly not in the SUV's path when he fired the second and third shots, which entered the car through the front window on the driver's side."
It very much did hit him. And the second and third shots are immaterial. It was all one action. He will not be prosecuted as it is a blatantly obvious self-defense claim.
Don't want to get shot? Don't hit people with your car. She thought it was a game and learned the real world ain't a damned game.
"However you weigh those factors, Good's opinions about immigration enforcement, as reflected in her prior activism, seem irrelevant in assessing Ross' conduct. Even if she was a committed anti-ICE activist (as the documents described by CNN suggest), that hardly means she was bent on killing an immigration agent with her car."
Well, since you cannot write or reason, maybe you are great at channeling the dead and asking them questions. Otherwise, you are making an assumption with zero evidence to base it upon.
As usual.
"That's assuming it made sense to think shooting Good was an effective way to neutralize the threat her car allegedly posed. The actual result was that the SUV careened down the street without guidance, stopping only after it crashed into a car parked on the left side."
Safer with her being dead than driving.
That would be the case for virtually everything, mind you. Good's only benefit is fertilizing the ground.
"Good's decision to disregard an ICE agent's order to "get out of the fucking car" certainly seems reckless, especially in retrospect, but it surely was not a capital offense."
Grand. She wasn't killed for being an obnoxious cunt. She hit an officer with her car. Hitting somebody with a car is a capital offense. It is why she WAS killed.
Even CBS is out with a report the officer was treated at a hospital. But that ruins Jacob's narratives.
"Even CBS"? Seriously?
Yes. They actually are pushing facts most main stream media is ignoring.
Whats confusing to you?
not being credible since before television is a start. Bari Weiss notwithstanding
Was it CBS that put model rocket ignitors in the gas tank of a Chevy pickup to "prove" they were dangetous?
Wasn't it CBS that insisted electric typewriters in the late 1960s did superscript when they claimed to have "proof" that George W Bush did something in the air national guard?
CBS stands for Cock n Bull Stories in my house...
Yes, that was, and they also perpetrated the lies of Boatfoot Betty who drove her Audi into the swimming pool, 'confusing' the brake and accelerator pedals, as it turned out.
GF at the time had one and took a licking when she traded it in; should have started a C/A suit against the lying scum.
Almost as pathetic as the lying pile of shit "freedomwriter".
He’s a good argument for putting Marxists in internment camps.
How libertarian of you.
Imagine a libertarian believing official state propaganda. There are almost NO libertarians on this forum. Just a bunch of right-wing TrumpDickSuckers. Own it snowflakes
Imagine being the shitstain freedomwriter hoping someone mistakes the asshole for a sentient human being.
Ya can't refute him, can ya?
YES it goes to intent. Woman driving home and accidentally caught up in a traffic jam shows no intent vs a woman who has chased and harassed ICE all day shows if not intent willful dissregard and even a potential threat. so yes her activities prior are important.
If you shoot a gun at a can and accidentally shoot somebody, you are still going to jail. Intent does not excuse it.
But the difference is Intent. And with criminal law, it is often significant. Missing the can, might be Manslaughter, but shooting at someone can be Murder.
" he was clearly not in the SUV's path when he fired the second and third shots, which entered the car through the front window"
The same leftists who insist the driver was steering her 4600 lb SUV to the right are somehow mystified that the SUV turned towards the right during the space of three shots.
Good's noncompliance showed her actions could not be presumed to be benign. Her lurching her SUV forward must be taken as a threat.
JS;dr
JS;dr
Did he have to shoot her? No. Did she do enough to get shot? Yes. If Asliegh Babbit's homocide by cop was justified then this is definitely justified. After Babbit pretty much any cop shooting is justified.
That said as a Trump supporter i was surprised more rioters were not shot on Jan 6. so I have little pity for Babbit. FAFO applies to all and they must accept the consequences of their actions
BLM caused 27 deaths and 2B in damages. How many were shot by officers?
^+1!
Any number less than ‘all of them’ is too low.
Neither was justified.
If you are in the comments section of a libertarian outlet and defending the administration's claim that this was "terrorism" then you might want to reevaluate your political views. You are not a Libertarian anymore. Own it.
This is a straightforward argument. Good was a dissenter and was civilly disobediant. That is not terrorism. Calling it terrorism is what a fascist does. Period. At best she panicked because that ICE agent was trying to jack her car. You have to be nuts to think she "intended" to run Ross over.
The fact that the administration is still trying to double-down on the terrorism angle is pathetic and worthy of impeachment. Congress needs to act now. This is out of control. Our president has gone rogue and could very well have dementia. This is not kayfabe. This is real.
Well, the fact that "Domestic Terrorism" charges exist is worthy of impeachment... The government (regardless of the Team in power)
Has been out of control for a long time.
"could very well have dementia" .... ahh I see, you just wanted to paint yourself as irrational and give the other side a reason to dismiss everything you say.
He did that ages ago.
You were doing fine until the last couple of sentences. TDS is a hell of a disease.
Yeah. One of the symptoms of TDS is suspending one's rational judgement to accomodate Trump - Trump Dumbing Syndrome. (or Derangement, either one)
If youre defending open and violent violations of the NAP by a group assaulting and disrupting society, youre not a libertarian.
Did Good actually initiate force, or did Ross initiate force by blocking her and possibly stepping into or near her path?
I know the following reference is from the liberal New York Times. But, it seems to be the most comprehensive compilation and synchronization of videos of the event.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D9R9dAmws6M
It seems to me that Ross was not hit and not in danger. Possibly, he stepped into the edge of the vehicle path. The vehicle was going slow when he shot at it. It appears to me to be an unnecessary or excessive use of force, and that the agent may have been seeking out a reason to use that level of force.
You have to be nuts to think she "intended" to run Ross over.
Yes, I have to be.
But not Ross. Who was standing in front of the car. Who she hit.
Regardless of her intent, he was trying to stop her from hitting him.
And that's all there is.
Was he standing in front of the car? Was he trying to stop her from hitting him? It appeared he was adjacent to the path then possibly stepped into it, himself, or near the path. It did not seem that he needed to shoot.
I gave this reference above. I know the following reference is from the liberal New York Times. But, it seems to be the most comprehensive compilation and synchronization of videos of the event.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D9R9dAmws6M
Actually i consider Doxing of ICE and threatening their children is quite literally terrorist tactics.
DOXing not necessarily, if it uses public knowledge or public information. Making threats is or could be considered terrorist.
If a person is doxxed by the use of proprietary or private or stolen information, then it should be prosecuted.
So denial of reality and fact is your only fall back?
You should have had the talk with Good and Co a couple weeks back. "This is not kayfabe. This is real."
Maybe Good would still be alive and the child rapist that ICE was going to apprehend that day would be deported...
Curious how you feel about a "mother" who is willing to give her life up for a child rapist?
Do you have an article for this?
I was trying to find one to shove down some dense assholes throat, but everything I found was just about Ms. Good. Like they completely gloss over why ICE was in that neighborhood to begin with.
Which child rapist is that?
If you participate in civil disobedience, you take the consequences. In this case Good threatened the ICE agent and he responded appropriately.
Note that he was knocked down and ended up going to the hospital. And the first shot went through the front window - he was in front of the car, and the other shots are legal from a 2014 SCOTUS ruling that once one shot is legal the officer can legally unload his gun on the target until the threat is over.
You just outed yourself, troll. These"protestors" are organized nationally and internationally to obstruct and threaten federal law enforcement. She clearly and unequivocally hit him. She is de facto a terrorist. If I take a gun to rob a bank with no intention of actually shooting, but pull the trigger by mistake and injure someone, I'm a violent bank robber and the cops can legally shoot me.
Done long ago if you've been here.
Lefty imbecilic assholes always claim a handle which they hope gives them some 'authority', when it actually proves they are lefty imbecilic assholes.
He should just shorten it to "clit".
I know the following reference is from the liberal New York Times. But, it seems to be the most comprehensive compilation and synchronization of videos of the event.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D9R9dAmws6M
It seems to me that Ross was not hit and not in danger. Possibly, he stepped into the edge of the vehicle path. The vehicle was going slow when he shot at it. It appears to me to be an unnecessary or excessive use of force, and that the agent may have been seeking out a reason to use that level of force.
Mayor Jacob Frey just as quickly judged Ross guilty of murder.
""trying to jack her car. ""
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Quit ignoring that they had a right to arrest her at that time, which may include pulling you out by force if you don't comply.
I’m not sure they had a right to arrest her. She was a citizen. She was following ICE around. She and her wife were filming them and talking shit. Lots of folks are doing that and if it was illegal they would all be in jail. The car was partially blocking the road. ICE are not traffic cops. Dragging citizens out of cars and arresting them for blocking traffic is the job of the regular cops.
Smart cops don’t try to block cars in with their bodies, they do it with other cars. They approach cars from the side. She messed up by starting to flee with him at the front corner. He messed up by standing in front and so close.
^^This.
The administration is investigating whether the two were terrorists. This would reinforce the narrative that they were dangerous.
Narrative.
"If you are in the comments section of a libertarian outlet and defending the administration's claim that this was "terrorism" then you might want to reevaluate your political views. You are not a Libertarian anymore. Own it."
Oh, is this a "Libertarian-only Echo Chamber"? Are only Libertarians to comment here?
Fascinating.
Still retarded no matter how many times you say this.
"Two more weeks" big boy. The walls are closing in! We've almost got him, this time!
Heraclitus needs to reevaluate his claim to being a sentient human.
Exactly
Bullshit.
Yes, it’s well established that you and Herc are fucking imbeciles.
"You have to be nuts to think she "intended" to run Ross over."
She behaved recklessly, without regard to anyone's else's safety, misguidedly playing at being some kind of civil rights hero and created a dangerous situation for everyone. She was acted like an idiot, encouraged by the cynics on the Left to be exploited for their political purposes.
And (properly) died as a result. The world is a better place for her death; stupidity helps no one.
Democrats ARE terrorists. Your antifa is a legitimate designated terror organization.among others.
Did JS write multiple articles about Ashli Babbit? One?
I'm actually asking. He's normally just Anti Trump but 1 out of a dozen articles he'll mention the other side.
So if this shooting is questionable ... what did he say about Ashli Babbit?
0 stories.
https://reason.com/search/Babbit/
Babbit was storming the Xapitol building, while Good was in a vehicle in a public street that was easily driven around. Ice cl;erly escalated the situation and Ross put himself in danger by walking in front of a vehicle. this is only hard to understand for TrumpDickSuckers, not libertarians.
The Capitol isnt a public building?
Ross was wearing a short skirt you say?
"Babbit was storming the Xapitol building,.."
Why do steaming piles of lying lefty shit lie so transparently? This asshole isn't alone:
SRG2 12/23/23
“Then strode in St Ashli, clad in a gown of white samite and basking in celestial radiance, walking calmly and quietly through the halls of Congress as police ushered her through doors they held open for her, before being cruelly martyred for her beliefs by a Soros-backed special forces officer with a Barrett 0.50 rifle equipped with dum-dum bullets.”
Slimy pile of shit, ain't he?
Climbing through a window of a public building. The murderous cop was not being run over by a 5000 lb vehicle. So terroristic. Meanwhile, tens of thousands of her fellow citizens were encouraged to "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard". Is this not the essence of libertarianism?
Babbitt was unarmed, and posed no, zero, zip, nada, threat to Lt Byrd, her executioner.
She was at the head of a big mob. Not sure how much they weighed in total.
But, the door was still intact. There was only a breech at one window where Babbit squeezed through, not anywhere a crowd could charge through.
Published: March 11, 2014
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/blog/new-directive-clarifies-existing-use-of-force-policy-at-cbp/
Yeah? Its true. And that an agent has put themselves in a dangerous position *is bad* - but it doesn't negate them defending themselves against someone who uses that to try to harm them.
It actually does.
Bunch of bootlicking gooseteppers in this forum. Certainly not libertarians.
Precedent was set in the case of Kirby v. Duva 2008 which states that deadly force cannot be used to prevent the escape of an unarmed, non-dangerous fleeing suspect. The ruling also supports the idea that an officer's use of deadly force may be deemed excessive if the officer UNREASONABLY PLACES THEMSELVES in harm's way in the first place, rather than utilizing safer alternatives. Also see:
Adams v Speers
Abraham v Roso
freedomwriter.
Is.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Fuck off and die, shitstain.
This remains retardedly false. Reddit doesnt send their best retards.
Deadly force can be used in response to assault with a deadly weapon. That is what happened.
CBP and ICE are different agencies retard.
Cars are weapons and self defense is justified if the cars are used as a weapon, ie driving into someone retard.
This is true even under Minnesota law retard.
The officer was literally hit retard.
Cars are weapons and self defense is justified if the cars are used as a weapon, ie driving into someone retard.
This is true even under Minnesota law retard.
This is true pretty much everywhere there are cars and guns.
Note: In this video the shot can clearly be heard and there is a 4 second delay before you hear "Shots fired!"
Sullum is a fucking retard on at least two continents.
Additional notes: The disparity of Youtube comments between this shooting from a year ago and the Renee Good shooting is pretty stark. One might even suspect a bit of... bias... based on the victim.
Or the level of TDS in the lying reporter.
Bunch of bootlicking gooseteppers in this forum. Certainly not libertarians.
Precedent was set in the case of Kirby v. Duva 2008 which states that deadly force cannot be used to prevent the escape of an unarmed, non-dangerous fleeing suspect. The ruling also supports the idea that an officer's use of deadly force may be deemed excessive if the officer UNREASONABLY PLACES THEMSELVES in harm's way in the first place, rather than utilizing safer alternatives. Also see:
Adams v Speers
Abraham v Roso
My god retard, please learn to make even 5th grade level responses.
Repeating yourself, SQRSLY, when you're wrong does not make you less wrong.
So cops should not even walk down a parking lot aisle, bc some drivers back in to spots, while others pull through.
Speaking of reatrd...Bunch of bootlicking gooseteppers in this forum. Certainly not libertarians.
Precedent was set in the case of Kirby v. Duva 2008 which states that deadly force cannot be used to prevent the escape of an unarmed, non-dangerous fleeing suspect. The ruling also supports the idea that an officer's use of deadly force may be deemed excessive if the officer UNREASONABLY PLACES THEMSELVES in harm's way in the first place, rather than utilizing safer alternatives. Also see:
Adams v Speers
Abraham v Roso
"...Speaking of reatrd (sic)..."
Yes, we noticed you showed up, fuckwit.
He attended a top notch learing center.
Reddits retards dont get that escape means fleeing without an officer in front of the car. Because reddit has the dumbest retards.
And he never cites Sentient Being v Retarded freedomwriter!
This moron is giving Sarc a run for his money as the biggest idiot here.
"Sure, I'm going to throw my body in front of this speeding vehicle so I can shoot the driver!", thought nobody ever.
Ross worked for CPB for years before shifting departments to ICE. That's where he got his training, bad habits, and knack for standing in front of vehicles to justify a shoot, retard.
"...It is suspected that in many vehicle shooting cases, the subject driver was attempting to flee from the agents who intentionally put themselves into the exit path of the vehicle, thereby exposing themselves to additional risk and creating justification for the use of deadly force..."
Good thing that didn't happen here, shitforbrains.
Immigration Council who? Another lefty shill org?
Read it for yourself on CBP's own website.
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/PERFReport.pdf
>It is hard to see how, since that question hinges on what happened the morning that an ICE agent shot her.
This is a rare Sullum take that's reasonable.
It's not reasonable, it's crafted to give the premise of seeming reasonable.
The fact that he then goes on to, once again, parse shots no. 2 and no. 3, despite the fact that even in fairly low pressure situations humans don't task switch that quickly or effectively just demonstrates that he doesn't actually care about who was thinking, or not thinking, what at any particular moment. He's got a conclusion, he's working backwards from it, and you're looking at the first "reasonable" step.
^+1!
Sullum is, simply, a steaming pile of lying TDS-addled shit who will try to hide it from time to time.
Wow, you guys have really drifted away from your original narrative of “ICE Kills Protester”.
Now it’s “ICE Disregarded Traffic Stop Guidance”, “The FBI Thinks Renee Good's Anti-ICE Activism Is Relevant in Deciding Whether Killing Her Was Justified”, and other leftist activist legal argle-bargle.
I’m pretty sure that what’s happening here is called “throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks”.
I’d advise giving it a break, resting up, and being fresh for the next Team Blue outrage/riot you guys need to help facilitate.
The narrative switch to 'he put himself in harm's way' has been interesting to watch. In the body cam video, he is just finishing up from walking around the car - it really isn't clear whether he was intentionally standing there or just moving around towards the driver's side. It's also an immaterial point as long as she knew he was there (which is also shown in the video). Kinda curious what the next narrative evolution will be.
For fucks sake Jacob. The only thing relevant is she drove towards and hit an officer. That is literally all that is required for self defense.
The activism is just proof against the leftist lies you fall for.
She was trying to turn around
She didn't mean to obstruct
She was dropping her kids off
She was scared and didn't know she was being detained.
You fell for leftist lies. Own up to it dumbass.
Own up to it dumbass.
Owning up to it doesn't push clicks.
It also doesn't cover for Tim Walz, Somali Fraud, or the fact that Iran entirely shutdown the conversation on their part of the internet and, rather than investigating to figure out the motivations that lead to this outcome, is bagging up the bodies of its protesters like it's Sunday at Costco.
"The FBI's interest in Good's history of activism suggests an attempt to obscure the central legal issue raised by the shooting:"
No it doesn't.
Jacob is just angry because he is paid to obscure the legal issues.
I'm certain it's a result of the brain misfunction caused by TDS which causes him to be a steaming pile of lying shit who needs to fuck off and die.
>>Under federal law, "domestic terrorism" involves criminal acts "dangerous to human life" aiming to "intimidate or coerce a civilian population," "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion," ...
"F" for class participation if given the elements you cannot successfully argue the she's a domestic terrorist side
The protesters standing on the streets with signs are not in question here.
It's those who were obstructing ICE which is meant to "influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion," that are going to be charged.
The organization giving lessons on how to fuck with law enforcement should be investigated. This goes further than Maxine Watters telling democrats to get in the faces of republicans and tell them they are not wanted.
>>The organization giving lessons on how to fuck with law enforcement should be investigated
absolutely.
but don't look into their intent ~~Sullum
WTF? Have you ever had to act in a split second?
"that shooting Good was necessary to protect himself, his colleagues, or the general public from the threat she allegedly posed when she began to drive away after she was confronted by ICE agents who ordered her to get out of her car?"
You say that as if the ICE agent had an hour to contemplate the vehicle suddenly launching toward him.
Had the tires not spun when she first punched it the officer would be in the hospital or dead.
But in this event the tires spun and the officer was still hit by the vehicle which became a deadly weapon when Good used it as one.
He did end up at a hospital.
He went to hospital, suffered some internal bleeding, and was treated and released later that night.
Frey is trying to argue that the ICE agent wasn't "hurt enough" to justify his reaction... as if the ICE agent knew the extent of his future injuries from the upcoming impact her car would have with his body and factored that in when he contemplated his future response to being hit by her car.
Frey just wishes the ICE agent were dead.
Didn't you know that all LEO's are Speedsters and capable of checking every possible timeline (a la Dr. Strange)?
I've never been hit by a vehicle because I stood in front of it during a confrontation. A confrontation ICE created.
If Ross was not standing in front of a vehicle, he would not have been hit at all. We can do this logic thing all day
Somehow your posts get more retarded each time. Ice forced good to obstruct them?
And you are NOT ALLOWED to walk around the front of a stopped vehicle! The asswipe freedomwriter.
"...I've never been hit by a vehicle because I stood in front of it during a confrontation..."
Real shame for the total intelligence of the world right there. Eliminating you would result in a measurable improvement.
Nope, not what happened.
Walz +9
Jacob, are you retarded? Are you seriously asking why it is important to know why Renee and her wife were obstructing law enforcement when she chose to disobey lawful orders to stop and get out of the car while recklessly driving her suv into a law enforcement officer who had every legal right and authority to be there? You can't understand why knowing why Renee and her wife were parked perpendicular to the flow of traffic and obstructing law enforcement operations isn't important to an investigation? Come on, Jacob, you cannot be that retarded?
It l3ads directly into Goods intent which jacob wants to ignore.
Yes, yes JS is indeed that retarded.
"ICE are untrained bullies looking for easy targets," it says. "Neighbors showing up have saved lives."
Oh yeah? Who's life was saved by losers taking classes and obstructing ICE? An illegal criminal child rapist?
FFS. Crimes are being committed because sanctuary fucktards are not doing their required jobs and are allowing illegal criminals to assault, rape, and/or murder American children and adults.
How can you deny this fact?
It is not a fact. No city or protecting rapists except Trump's Washington DC
Well you and other asswipes do. Fuck off and die.
Oh, so they aren’t letting known criminals with deportation orders to roam free?
I guess this didn’t happen: https://lawenforcementtoday.com/minnesota-ice-illegal-rapist-sanctuary-policy#
Or this: https://www.aol.com/news/ice-arrests-minnesota-surge-numerous-225953163.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHlhH7yK41s_fKZsyFgr_I8qZC75E6XoZ86HIxB2_KKSltqF6lXuw0eLjb6wjg88ciDo9WjqEYQIER219zVX0K9lEMRmd4odBcAm707cUobo2CNnC-WdwoPvyawe0Yt1R0h9WNyyLV840UopZMg6nOlEotBstjhEkvKFvREL2aRA
These are the people you’re trying to keep ICE from apprehending. Go fuck yourself.
Doesn’t matter. He will repeat his lies no ,after what. Like a less articulate Pedo Jeffy.
"If you look at what the definition of domestic terrorism is, it completely fits the situation on the ground."
FBI agents charged with investigating the shooting reportedly are now trying to support that characterization by examining Good's ties to groups that oppose the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) crackdown in Minneapolis.
If you take away any legal justification and relegate the whole affair to the private sector, just one group of people showing up in public and another group following them around, yeah, even Hollywood proportionally regards the paparazzi as terrorists and the paparazzi aren't even specifically opposed to actions of the people they're stalking.
The stalking from ICE is legally justified. You don't make it unjust by stalking them back. 6 yr. olds generally understand this.
But, of course the continued outrage-milling from Reason and sympathetic media is a valuable distraction from the facts that the place is chock full of illegal fraudsters and Iran is actually keeping its citizens from posting to the internet while they stack the bodies several layers deep.
I want to see the victim's widow's video tape of her and the victim following and taunting the ICE officers for 'sport' - this was a master class in "FAFO".
Collin Rugg
@CollinRugg
But remember, armchair takes from people who really think they were living inside Renee Good's head at the time is where the real truth lies.
I'm sorry that Renee and the radicalizing internet retards like Jacob Sullum did this to these people.
Oh well if a brother said it, it must be law! LOL
Oh well, if you posted it, it is certainly a retarded lie!
"LOL" - Really? Will they let you out of 6th grade the end of this year?
You poor retarded thirty bitch.
He said "opinion" and the point is, the people who are directly dealing with the consequences of this woman's actions disgreed with her before she took them and disagree now.
But then, people like you don't actually care about actions or consequences one way or the other, they're all just grist for your political mill.
"The FBI Thinks Renee Good's Anti-ICE Activism Is Relevant in Deciding Whether Killing Her Was Justified"
Yes, you TDS-addled steaming pile of lying shit, attempting to run down an LEO *IS* relevant in whether her killing is justified. It IS justified.
Please see, for your education (assuming that is possible as doubtful as it seems):
"CHICAGO POLICE CHIEF goes viral for defending ICE AGENTS"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hg1LtNqoKU
You attempt to ram your car into an LEO, there's a very good chance you'll get shot. You might try it, and we'd hope the result is a more intelligent world after you're gone.
Pathetic...
A person belongs to a vigilante group known as "Jew watch". The stated purpose of the group is to disrupt the lives of Jews or synagogues.
One of their members decides to block the entrance to a synagogue and directs others to blow whistle to disrupt service. When a rabbi approaches from the front asking her to leave, she jams on D when he's possibly inches away from the left headlight.
At that point she is in fact, a domestic terrorist. It does not matter that group actually didn't advocate for open violence. Since they're an outfit organized against a certain group of people, any of them acting recklessly to endanger that group can be easily categorized as domestic terrorism.
If you see a white man using racial slurs on a black man, acts aggressively and nearly runs him over, you'd consider that an act of crime. Finding out later that the white man was KKK only confirms the reasons for his actions. "But you couldn't have known that he was racist at THAT moment" is a total moot point.
Note that ICEwatch isn't some legit legal watchdog group that would sue ICE after the fact. Their stated goal is to disrupt ICE, period. You think they knew WHO these ICE agents were detaining? What if they were arresting an actual pedophile or mass murderers? They don't care. They're not any different than Hamas fan club who assault Jews on the streets to "stop murder children".
Nothing was blocked. Did you not see an SUV drive around?
The SUV she almost hits then pulls forward after the car gets around?
We've already established youre retarded. Now we are just seeing how retarded.
She blocked on lane of the road.
Wow
BTW, I don't buy this notion that a cabal of radicals who merely "watch" a group they so passionately detest can never be domestic terrorism.
Even in public, I have certain expectation of privacy. An anti immigrant group has no right to shove their cameras into my car or bang on it while screeching at me to go back to my country. They can't blow whistles right at my face at work, making it impossible for me to do anything. I'd be terrified to even exist as an immigrant.
But let's say Vance did define domestic terrorism broadly. So what? Noem is correct in saying that Good committed domestic terror by trying to run over an ICE agent. She's a member of an unsanctioned and unregulated anti ICE group whose agenda is to impede ICE at any turn.
Jacob, when a car blocks the road like Good did, traffic from both sides only have one lane to negotiate. That some cars were able to navigate through an obstruction isn't proof of normalcy. Do you expect ICE agents to just drive narrowly past this woman who blocked her car, not knowing what she has in the car, what her intentions is, etc? What the heck is this BIZARRE hill that you're choosing to die on?
You have to lie to make your point. The road was not blocked.
BTW, you have no privacy in public.
"...The road was not blocked..."
That's only because, like you, she was too retarded to do so. Fuck off and die, fuckwit.
It might not have been blocked - yet. But the videos she watched (from ICE Watch MN) showed how to use supposedly stuck multiple vehicles in coordination to actually tie up traffic, and, thus ICE operations. And that was exactly what she and her wife had been doing for some time, earlier that day. She reportedly was the lead in a convoy trying to play this hame. My suspicion is that she (or at least her vehicle) was well enough known, for ICE to see the anti-ICE operation going down. Without Good “stuck” there (she was clearly faking the stuck part), their anti-ICE stratagem breaks down. So ICE proactively tried to get her out of her vehicle, thereby thwarting their stratagem.
Her girlfriend is going to jail, Sullem. Suck on that, propagandist.
I'd be amused to see her held for felony murder in connection to committing a felony.
Well being caught on camera saying it was her fault isn’t going to help.
"Drive baby drive!" probably isn't going to help either.
Can we just use this picture as proof that progressivism is a mental disease that makes your life suck?
She looks like a 50-60 yo chemo patient. She is *37*!.
Her partner looks like a weird alcoholic lawn gnome....
These people should be a cautionary tale. "This is your brain on progressive politics" etc. Fucking woof
She's 37???????!!!!
Visually I pegged them both in their 50s, but mentally downgraded it to 45ish since they had more of a millenial than GenX vibe.
Yeah Geez...
..and [D]emon-crap Slavers supporting slavery wasn't a relevant issue during the Civil War either! /s
"...First, Noem, Vance, and President Donald Trump have prejudged the outcome by declaring that Ross acted in self-defense..."
No, the videos did so for them.
The only relevant questions are "Did she try to kill the agent" and "Did her lesbian lover (they weren't married) incite her"?
All the videos clearly indicate yes.
Sorry Jacob, your color revolution isn't going to happen.
Only in the mind of a nonlibertarian is that what the video shows. A real libertarian would be saying, "Ross clearly put himself in harms way. No ice agents should have been out of their vehicles. The road was not blocked; they could have driven around."
Imagine a libertarian repeating state propaganda
Precedent was set in the case of Kirby v. Duva 2008 which states that deadly force cannot be used to prevent the escape of an unarmed, non-dangerous fleeing suspect. The ruling also supports the idea that an officer's use of deadly force may be deemed excessive if the officer UNREASONABLY PLACES THEMSELVES in harm's way in the first place, rather than utilizing safer alternatives. Also see:
Adams v Speers
Abraham v Roso
"Only in the mind of a nonlibertarian is that what the video shows."
Only what passes for the "mind" of a TDS-addled steaming pile of lying lefty shit does it not, TDS-addled steaming pile of lying lefty shit.
See: Sentient Being v freedomwriter
Ross clearly put himself in harms way.
False. He walks completely around a stopped vehicle. Stopping or walking in front of a stopped vehicle is not a crime, nor is it necessarily a pass for the driver to hit the pedestrian. Even for police to walk in front of a car as part of an arrest, while ill advised, is not any sort of get out of jail free card for the suspect.
Kirby v. Duva
Adams v Speers
Abraham v Raso
These aren't just irrelevant, they undermine your argument and are beginning to look massively retarded. First, none of these are 8th Circuit, which MN would be. Second, they're appeals, largely in support of civil suits to detach QI. Third, moving past the fact that, in all three cases, officers were already in the process of detaining the suspects for criminal acts, both Speers and Raso testified that they were in front of the vehicle when the evidence, more clearly in Speers' case, showed that they were not. In Kirby v. Duva, witnesses testified that the vehicle did back up, but that it had stopped before shots were fired and that Duva was never in reasonable fear for his life or harm to self and others.
Ross, OTOH, has not testified as to whether he was in front of the car or not and doesn't have to. The bullet struck the front window, which is distinct from all 3 cases above, and the vehicle struck him where he was standing, which is, allegedly, distinct from 2 of the 3 cases above. Moreover, by your own arguments, he should've had nothing to fear from walking in front of the car of someone who was just a 'legal observer' any more than he should fear crossing the street at stoplight.
You guys just continue to beclown yourself and undermine any defense that the surviving Good *could* make.
This was a particularly bad article from Jabob. What? did you lift this from The Atlantic? Every time Reason sides with the brainwashed idiots and the organized violence against ICE officers trying to do their jobs, you lose more credibility. I mean, what part of "you're in the country illegally, you should not be here, you need to leave" do you not fucking understand? Don't agree, then peacefully protest and try and change the law. You don't side with groups that clearly want to, at best, interfere and, at worst, want violence.
Yeah, one of his worst, but only by degrees. Sullum has been a TDS-addled steaming pile of lying shit since Trump showed up on the political scene, so why a supposed 'news aggregator' employs this asshole is a mystery to me.
Except for the (certainly possible) condition of every employee of Reason, from Welsh on down is a similar TDS-addled steaming pile of lying shit.
I'm going for the later. Fuck you Welsh with a barb-wire-wrapped baseball bat, for turning what was a libertarian publication into what it has become. May you bleed to death as a result.
BTW, Welsh, we met in San Fransico prior to Trump's first election. You struck me as an oily pile of shit at the time, but Reason still had some cred. Neither you, nor it, asshole, does by now.
Next year $0.50, slimy pile of shit.
You're a dimwitted fascist chucklefuck.
Good wasn't in the country illegally. Elon Musk, on the other hand, is an illegal immigrant and fraudulent citizen. It's not their legal status you cucks really object to, it's the skin color.
“Publicizing ICE operations qualifies as "violence," she suggested, because it "encourag[es] other people to come and to throw things" such as "rocks" and "bottles."” So, just like Trump’s speech caused the Capitol break-in…?
Where Trump said 'Go in peace'. Yep, just like that to TDS-addled steaming piles of lying shit like Sullum. Who, as an asswipe, should fuck off and die for the good of world intelligence.
Free speech? Free assembly? Terrorists!!
A person does not have to agree with ICE nor their source of funding. This much may warrant a perfectly good reason to be "anti-ICE." And it's not illegal. Other sources in this umbrella set of threads have been making much of being "anti-" as if one sort of definitive anti-ICE act defines them all. Let's look at whether illegal acts were formed instead of expounding upon expression used freely to twist it to radical extreme ends.
Obstructing ICE or any other law enforcement in their duties is illegal. Blocking a public road is illegal. Fleeing arrest is illegal. Reckless endangerment driving a vehicle is illegal. You do not get a free pass on those things because you were otherwise "exercising free speech rights".
LARPing against armed individuals is peak stupidity.
Forcibly obstructing ICE is illegal.
Parking sideways in a traffic lane probably violates traffic laws. ICE has no authority to enforce those laws.
Ross and his fellow inbred incel thugs had no authority to detain her, let alone violently assault her. She had every right to defend herself by trying to flee the assault.
"Ross and his fellow inbred incel thugs had no authority to detain her, let alone violently assault her. She had every right to defend herself by trying to flee the assault
"let alone violently assault her." Which they did not do.
Shitstain, she was impeding their work and they had every right to order her out of the car. Instead, she seems to have tried to run over him and got shot, dead.
Please do the same, asswipe. The world would be measurably more intelligent.
One means that the public has to evaluate whether personnel acting out the part of working for tax dollars awarded by the federal government would be to join or act by getting involved in a group that has a mission to try to protect members of an oppressed group, Generally it's not within the ability of group joiners to know whether any given person were ultimately guilty or innocent of a particular crime. However, they can certainly witnesses whether they see any crime while out in the field evaluating the scene and anyone acting under any given protocol or premise, whether ICE agents or persons at the scene of an evaluation by witnesses with some idea of how honorable conduct should be playing out regardless of whose.
For the government to portray the presence of witnesses as a form of terrorism without charging anyone with a crime but instead attempting to cover up an action with apparent murder looks like a waste of precious resources.
Thinking that you will be protected by the biggest lies in the republic when you kill looks like fallacious reasoning to me.
Midwit copes.
"...involved in a group that has a mission to try to protect members of an oppressed group..."
You misspelled "criminals", asswipe.
I mean, even if it's only nominally, the cops are supposed to protect everyone equally, oppressed group or not.
By their own precepts it's kinda hard to start from a lower moral footing than a police officer, but there they are.
But then, this was all apparent back in the day when "All Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter" were deemed racist. They don't actually care about lives, they care that some lives are more equal than others.
It does have bearing in that it clearly establishes that she was a protest participant and not a confused observer that was caught in a dangerous situation.
If you play with fire, you have the danger of getting burned. As tragic as her death is, she placed herself in danger regardless of which side of the ICE deportations you are on.
Why? Let's say she was a lost soccer mom trapped by the protests of others and keep all the other events the same. The Agent stands in front of her car and she tries to leave. Are you saying that would somehow make the shoot not self defense?
If she were a lost soccer mom who behaved in exactly the same way, accidentally inserting herself between the LE cars, gunning the engine, ignoring orders to step out of the vehicle, hitting an officer, then gunning it again towards an officer, yes, killing her would have been justified. It would have been a terrible tragedy, but the shooting would have been 100% justified.
And by the way, this shooting is also a tragedy. You have a misguided, functionally retarded woman who has lived in a social and political bubble so extreme, she lacks the cognitive ability to determine consequences from a series of actions that she chose to partake. She's not a criminal, not likely a terrorist (although her behavior and activism suggests if the right combination of buttons were pressed, she'd blow up a plane while yelling "Allahu Akbar" if she thought it would help) I don't believe her intention was to kill anyone (although the one video of her seriously hitting that one ICE officer might suggest otherwise) and it resulted in her quite predictable death.
Surgery to sew up a ruptured artery won't have you out the same day. As such, the internal bleeding is most likely a bruise. Which he could have avoided if instead of spending his time killing someone, he had used his hands to obey policy and push himself from the path of the vehicle.
Even so, that isn't murder. Just desperately poor judgement. Fire the guy.
So, in your admission that she did hit him, you're also advertising that not only are you a shitty lawyer, you're a shitty doctor too?
Note to the public: LoneSnark is a retard, if you make contact with a moving vehicle, regardless of fault, and experience the symptoms of internal bleeding (dizziness, abdominal pain, chest pain, discolored urine, shortness of breath...), it's a good idea to go get checked out. Even if you don't experience symptoms, people routinely get checked out and are found to have internal bleeding from less traumatic interactions.
Once again and as usual, these people don't care about you or Renee Good or Jonathan Ross or Brian Sickinick or Ashli Babbitt or anyone else. They enjoy the attention that acting like a retard and causing chaos gets them. They don't care how stupid they have to act or who they hurt in the process.
Why would any medical professional classify a contusion as internal bleeding? He definitely could have avoided that had Renee not chosen to drive her suv into the law enforcement officer.
DHS and the rest of this Administration have lied repeatedly about this killing despite the video.
Only fascist bootlickers buy this week-late claim of an unspecified boo-boo.
Ross should do something decent with his life and end it.
Slimy piles of TDS-addled lying shit have lied repeatedly about this killing despite the video.
Only steaming piles of TDS-addled lying shit buy your lies
You should do something decent with you life and end it.
Fuck off and die, Slimy pile of TDS-addled lying shit.
TDS is a mental illness that afflicts Trump supporters. People who are deranged enough to believe the nonstop stream of lies coming from this corrupt regime.
Take your own advice. You're a cancer on the Republic. America won't be great again until every one of you fascist fucks is dead.
I haven’t followed this particular case. What has been ICE’s officially stated reason to forcibly detain Good?
She was parked perpendicular to a one way street explicitly to interfere with an ICE operation. Dancing in her car and honking her horn right up until confronted by the ICE officers.
Amusingly, had she just simply let herself get arrested this would have been a prima facie example of civil disobedience.
So, “interfering with an ICE operation” for being parked perpendicularly in the road, dancing and honking at cars going around the front of her car while seated in the driver’s position? And she then gets plugged three times while driving away from a stationary position to approximately 3 mph in a right turn direction while an agent approaches her vehicle from a position to the front left side of the car?
Damn, that was one sketchy officer involved shooting. Sketchy charge, sketchy scenario. VERY sketchy.
Jacob, of course it matters because they need to know why she was there in the first place. Especially if there is evidence of them planning to obstruct and impeded federal law enforcement. How are you this incompetent? You're not using any Reason when formulating your incompetent articles. Also, you were completely incorrect regarding Khalil. How can layman such as us comprehend the law better than you?
Sorry Charlie, but you don’t have a clue. Nothing you just stated in your comment has any bearing on the actual shooting.
Yes, there was evidence that she was there to interfere with an ICE operation. She knew the officers involved, from having dealt with them earlier that day. And the officers recognized her vehicle. So, no soccer mo, accidentally getting stuck. She was very likely told to get out of her vehicle because the officers were seeing the same play being executed again. For the umpteenth time. She was reputedly the first vehicle in line, with the others in line planning to get “stuck” because she was “stuck”. Except, from her driving off, she was never actually stuck. It was all pretend.
Then, after the shooting, the FBI got a search warrant, and what did they find? Videos from ICE. Watch MN teaching the exact same stratagem utilized by Good et ux to interfere with ICE Operations with a chain of operatives pretending to get stuck right in front of ICE agents trying to incarcerate the illegals that had just been arrested.
So, if any one mentions “soccer moms” or accidentally getting stuck, know that they are a lying POS. They weren’t stuck, and it wasn’t accidental. And Good was ordered out of her vehicle because the ICE agents knew the plan too, because they had seen it before, apparently including Good et ux.
So the shooter was treated shortly after the incident and documented to have “internal bleeding” and released within approximately two hours? That must have been just a bruise. I would like to see photos of his injury. I’m guessing he was hit by the driver’s side mirror while dumping rounds into the now deceased somewhat premeditatedly while focused on shooting the driver rather than taking a step back to get out of the way.
Again, sketchy as all hell for an officer involved shooting.
No duty to Retreat, even in MN, as he was a LEO working to detain a fleeing criminal.
Yes, he might have avoided the confrontation. But that gives the fleeing criminal a veto over their attempt to detain them. Thus, no Duty to Retreat.
You are not supposed to shoot into a moving car to prevent flight only as it endangers everyone around who could get run over by dead person driving car.
Then again, Charlie. Aren’t you one of the folks here who justifies the use of deadly force on individuals suspected only of drug smuggling?
Why are the contents of Good’s house relevant. In short, to establish Intent.
There are multiple possible alternatives:
1) Good accidentally got her SUV stuck.
2) Good intentionally pretended to get stuck.
3) good and wife intentionally pretended to get stuck, in a conspiracy to interfere with ICE operations in a coordinated way.
4) Previous situation, but with the conspiracy crossing state lines.
Also, there may be a distinction between agreeing to meet by the ICE operations, and generally screw with it, and agreeing with others how to use multiple “stuck” vehicles to interfere.
What the ICE agents probably knew before Good had been ordered out of her SUV, was that the protesters were operating in acoordinated manner, with a lead vehicle supposedly getting stuck (she wasn’t actually stuck, because she could, and did, drive off when ordered out of her vehicle). Note that they had been playing this game for awhile, that day, and Good’s vehicle was recognized, and the two women knew it.
What the feds apparently found, when execution their search warrant, was that the two women were decently deep in the conspiracy. They were apparently following a script on a video from ICE Watch MN. And they had other material concerning disrupting ICE operations.
As I understand it, mere interring with ICE operations is a misdemeanor. But coordinating it is a conspiracy, and likely crossing state lines takes it into criminal RICO. AND determining her motive and coordination with others is what likely takes her actions into felony territory. ICE agents knew that the two women were coordinating with other protesters. They just didn’t know how deep they were into it, and really, definitively, whether Good, when she h it Ross, Was a fleeing criminal, or a fleeing violent (from hitting Ross) felon And that determined how aggressively they could pursue good.
Thinking about this some more, my thoughts are that ICE knew that this technique or stratagem of chain getting stuck was planned. Or had, at least a strong gut feeling that it was. Good and her wife were known to ICE, and they knew it. Likely because they had participated earlier that day. Remember, first time is luck, second time is coincidence, and third time, it’s enemy action. You don’t have the same vehicles getting spontaneously stuck in front of an ICE operations without some planning.
With that evidence, the FBI likely had probable cause, finally, to convince a federal judge to issue a search warrant to search for evidence of coordination, or even a conspiracy. And apparently found it, in the video from ICE Watch MN teaching this stratagem, and likely social media, etc planning it.
“…was a fleeing criminal, or a fleeing violent (from hitting Ross) felon And that determined how aggressively they could pursue good.”
Bruce, I hope you’re not getting money to pretend to be a legal advisor. You’re apparently making the erroneous assumption that a determination as to whether or not LEO may use deadly force can be made subsequent to having actually used deadly force.
Bruce, in a nutshell you apply the “lynch mob mentality” to the use of deadly force. In other words, you can’t shoot a shithead and try to find reasons the shithead really was a shithead later. (Not that Good was a shithead).