Ending Section 230 Would Kill the Internet as We Know It
Don’t unleash censors; restrain them more!

Described as "the 26 words that created the internet," Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act catches a lot of flak for a piece of legislation that is largely responsible for online platforms' willingness to host discussion forums. In its absence, social media companies and message boards would likely return to the previous era of either allowing anybody to say anything, or else taking legal responsibility for every insult and slur posted on their platforms. That would probably mean the end of online discourse as we know it—which may be what happens if proposed bipartisan legislation "sunsets" Section 230.
You are reading The Rattler from J.D. Tuccille and Reason. Get more of J.D.'s commentary on government overreach and threats to everyday liberty.
Immunity From Consequences?
"The fact that Section 230 has operated as a near complete immunity shield for social media companies is due to decades of judicial opinions trying to parse its ambiguities and contradictions," Rep. Frank Pallone Jr. (D–N.J.) huffed this week at a hearing on the Section 230 Sunset Act which would abolish that law after December 31, 2025. After a litany of the alleged horribles available online, including "videos glorifying suicide and eating disorders" and promotion of "illegal opioid sales to people searching for addiction recovery gatherings," Pallone added: "I reject Big Tech's constant scare tactics about reforming Section 230. Reform will not 'break the internet' or hurt free speech."
In his certainty of the necessity for ditching Section 230, Pallone, ranking Democrat on the House Energy and Commerce Committee, is joined by committee chair Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R–Wash.). The two co-authored a Wall Street Journal op-ed this month insisting their legislation "would require Big Tech and others to work with Congress over 18 months to evaluate and enact a new legal framework that will allow for free speech and innovation while also encouraging these companies to be good stewards of their platforms."
But Section 230 doesn't do what they claim, and repealing it won't create the better world they envision.
…or Protection From Censorship?
"How do you know when Section 230 is being misunderstood?" Robert Corn-Revere, chief counsel at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) quipped last year. "A politician is talking about it."
As Corn-Revere points out, "adopted in 1996, Section 230 was proposed as a way to counter efforts to censor internet speech." Prior to its passage, online platforms were treated as publishers of material posted on their sites if they made any attempt at moderation. They were incentivized to allow free-for-alls, or else scrutinize all content for legal liability—or not allow third parties to post anything at all.
Included in the Communications Decency Act, Section 230's important provisions survived the voiding of most of that law on constitutional grounds. It reads, in part: "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." Those are the 26 words credited as creating the internet by Jeff Kosseff's 2019 book. They also take the blame for what so many politicians hate about the online world.
"Democrats say too much hate, election meddling, and misinformation get through, while Republicans claim their ideas and candidates are censored," Bloomberg's Todd Shields and Ben Brody noted in 2020 during an earlier spasm of bipartisan hate directed at Section 230. The left is angry that material they don't like can be posted online without platforms being compelled to suppress it, while the right is upset that those platforms exercise moderation by their own rules rather than those of posters. Both want to strip firms of the ability to exercise their own judgment over what appears on their services.
Section 230 Most Protects Small Fry, Not Big Tech
"For the biggest players, more carefully policing content would probably mean bolstering the ranks of thousands of hired moderators and facing down far more lawsuits," added Shields and Brody. "For smaller players, the tech industry argues, it could prove ruinous."
That is, online discussions could become more hobbled and expensive, or even largely disappear.
"The law is not a shield for Big Tech," point out the Electronic Frontier Foundation's (EFF) Aaron Mackey and Joe Mullin in defending Section 230. "Critically, the law benefits the millions of users who don't have the resources to build and host their own blogs, email services, or social media sites, and instead rely on services to host that speech."
Mackey and Mullin worry that lawmakers' efforts to "require Big Tech and others to work with Congress" to establish new liability rules for content moderation would ditch current neutral rules in favor of a new regime that favors politicians and big companies over everybody else.
"Online speech is frequently targeted with meritless lawsuits," they write. "Big Tech can afford to fight these lawsuits without Section 230. Everyday internet users, community forums, and small businesses cannot."
Don't Unleash Censors, Restrain Them
FIRE, for its part, thinks people complaining about online conduct may well have valid concerns, but that sunsetting Section 230 is the wrong way to go. The free speech group highlights polling which shows that "two-thirds of Americans don't trust the government to regulate content fairly — including majorities of Democrats, Republicans, and independents."
In place of eliminating Section 230, FIRE proposes legislation that would compel the government to report, within 72 hours, any content moderation demands made of internet services. The disclosure would have to include the identity of the agency involved, the service targeted, and a "description or a copy of the content published on a covered platform."
FIRE also recommends that online platforms voluntarily adopt transparent and unbiased moderation policies. Users "should be able to appeal moderation decisions that affect them."
Those proposals won't give us a perfect internet, because nothing will ever meet that impossible bar. They also are unlikely to satisfy the concerns of politicians who pretend that Section 230 grants "Big Tech" immunity even as they craft legislation that will most hurt small businesses and discussion forums—but disappointing government officials is a feature, not a bug.
"The First Amendment—not Section 230—is the basis for our free-speech protections in the U.S.," insist Pallone and Rodgers as they peddle a law that would extend their power over our conversations.
More protection from government meddling is better than less, and Section 230 functions as part of a shield for speech that needs strengthening, not sunsetting.
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No, it wouldn't.
We're just one country on this planet after all, and the internet has been out in the 'wild' for decades.
What would happen if South Africa, Brazil, or Hungary suddenly passed legislation that was similar to kneecapping Section 230? If you chose 'not a damned thing', do you see the point yet?
You mean we could all just switch to TikTok?
“In its absence, social media companies and message boards would likely return to the previous era of either
allowing anybody to say anything,
or else taking legal responsibility for every insult and slur posted on their platforms. “
The first alternative is free speech. It’s an inalienable right for a reason.
People will finally speak truth to power.
If they break a law doing so, everyone will speak about it resulting in one of the following:
The law is just, conforming with the constitution and the principles of right over wrong demonstrated by speaking correctly applied logic and science, ONLY the person breaking the law will be punished.
Or if the law is unjust, people will speak truth to power and the irrefutable evidence of correctly applied logic and science will demand the law be corrected, with any resisting lawmakers punished.
This is the reason FREE SPEECH IS 1A.
Case in point.
I’m trying to post proof of my statement here https://reason.com/2024/05/21/israel-raids-the-associated-press-and-seizes-equipment-over-war-coverage/
and REASON is blocking the link.
Lying isn’t protected speech and since it is coercion it should be criminalized. The proof that I’m telling the truth is in the link that reason is blocking.
Whatever THIS is. It’s not free speech.
The 1A doesn't *ENTITLE* you to post on other people's platform.
You're not addressing this as an inalienable right; you're addressing it as an *ENTITLEMENT*.
But section 230 does, though. They can't censor him and then claim that they're an open platform that isn't responsible for their content. I understand that some censorship is probably inevitable -- taking down child porn, for example, or open threats. But there should be no need to censor "disinformation," and if they're going to do that, they shouldn't be shielded by 230.
S230 doesn't say anywhere that breach-of-contract is void legislation. You're not addressing S230. You're making *excuses*.
Inalienable rights are “entitlements” for people in this country. Thats what the constitution guarantees.
When you invite the public to speak, in a nation where speech is free, you necessarily can’t censor them unless censorship is a legal punishment for a crime they have been found guilty of through due process.
Like felons can’t possess guns.
Abiding by the laws of the land Is the cost of doing business.
Entirely incorrect.
1A - "Congress shall make no law"....
Talk about taking a phrase out of context! Finish it why don’t you.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
A law against censorship doesn’t violate 1A, or do any of the above, it supports it.
Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.
It doesn’t get much more obvious than that.
FORCED speech is a violation of “freedom of speech” precisely because it’s is a LAW enforced by Gov-Guns. As-if “invoking the 5th Amendment” didn’t clarify that completely.
Never-mind we are way off subject. S230 just states the platform owner cannot be held legally liable for outside commentary. Such liability must be kept on those who actually break a law not prosecuting 3rd parties. (i.e. Just because you rent a house were a murder takes places doesn't make you guilty of murder.)
“Congress shall make no law … abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press.“
That was written when “the press” meant one way communication- to the masses.
Social media is two way communication which is completely different.
Yes, Congress shall make no law to violate anyone’s free speech.
"S230 just states the platform owner cannot be held legally liable for outside commentary."
Not quite. S230 states that they cannot be held legally liable IF they are an open platform which allows people to speak freely. The NY Times can be held liable for content that they publish in their paper. Twitter cannot be held liable for tweets that their users publish (still within certain bounds of legality). So you are ignoring the part about Twitter then editing commentary like the NY Times but still claiming S230 protection.
It does allow you to speak in the public square. Platforms are the equivalent of the public square. Censoring that public square makes the platform a publisher, who can then be sued for what they have allowed. Allowing free discourse was the way out of lawsuits. In short, there is no right to a publication protected from lawsuits for defamation etc. By definition, if you remove the content you don't approve of, it is reasonable to assume you endorse that which remains.
Lying is and should be protected free speech. Defamation is not. The reason being is that simple truth/untruth is difficult to unravel at at any time, especially in the present when censorship happens. Remember all the lies told by government during Covid?
I think your Jew hatred falls under the scope of speech that must be protected otherwise we don't have free speech. In short, I believe in free speech for people that believe in free speech. If they believe in censoring me or others, we should start with them.
Brazil right now has federal judges ordering Elon to ban Xitter users they don't like on pain of fines upon fines and/or shut-out. When Bolsonaro was Acting Trump Clone, SNL clips were banned from entering via Youtube.
I don't really care what happens in those countries. If the US were to do it, most public comments sections in the US would probably be shut down.
Reason's comments section is the perfect illustration of the only easy/cheap alternative (a free for all): it's a shithole where little to do with libertarianism is ever discussed, and hardly anyone visits (apart from a dozen different people operating two dozen socks). It's hard to see what Reason gets out of it.
"It’s hard to see what Reason gets out of it."
SOME of like to please our conscience, for the sake of pleasing our consciences and living by our principles! Such rare people should be treasured instead of questioned in a rebuking manner, if that is what you mean to do!
public comments sections
LOL. *Public* comments sections would shut down. The way the ability to sue any given shopkeeper for slipping on a puddle in their store or selling you a defective product or even a perfectly effective product that's just too hot for you to dump in your own lap would end fast food or retail or commerce as we know it.
Reason’s comments section is the perfect illustration of the only easy/cheap alternative (a free for all): it’s a shithole where little to do with libertarianism is ever discussed, and hardly anyone visits (apart from a dozen different people operating two dozen socks). It’s hard to see what Reason gets out of it.
Reason's readership numbers have fuck-all to do with the comments section.
Where did I mention readership numbers? Reason is published by the Reason Foundation, which is a non-profit charitable foundation ostensibly existing to spread the libertarian political message (as influenced by the Koch and Scaife foundations). Unlike a typical magazine, readership numbers are not the primary drivers of Reason's editorial policies.
So readership numbers are largely irrelevant; however, as a foundation dedicated to spreading libertarianism, the Reason comments section (as currently constituted, and excluding the VC) probably casts more shade and even darkness upon that purpose than the little flicker of light provided by hosting a sick, twisted free-for-all for homicidal right-wing degenerates.
The diversity in reasons comments section demonstrates both the strengths and weaknesses of libertarianism.
Not everyone yearns for a circle jerk.
They’re not libertarians. Why would Reason want to host them?
But hey, it’s their sandbox; if they don’t mind what its full of, who am I to tell them how they should respond?
If you chose ‘not a damned thing’, do you see the point yet?
Is it at the end of my elite, white, progressive, colonialist, imperialist, globalist, supremacist nose?
Otherwise, no.
"If you chose ‘not a damned thing’, do you see the point yet?"
If your point is that we should keep our dicks in our pants and our clits in our panties, and NOT appoint ourselves ass bosses of other nations, then yes, I see your point!
The headline reads like a "Without Net-neutrality the internet will die!" kind of hysteria.
Because it is. It is also a "how dare you take away our protections while censoring you" vibe to it. They just cannot understand that their doomsday scenario is already here for many of us so why be concerned.
just so!
Ken would have liked this.
Everyone except the writers at Reason understands that section 230 should not apply to these companies. For extremely obvious reasons. No, the internet will not die.
The proposal is to repeal section 230 entirely, not exempt large social media companies from its protection.
Ending Section 230 Would Kill the Internet as We Know It
Again?
I’m so old, I can remember when libertarians and even classical liberals, including writers this very magazine, used to say passing section 230 would kill the internet as we know it.
The article you linked to was about the CDA, which was subsequently declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court--apart from section 230, which survived. The article was not about section 230 at all.
OK, so, just to be clear; Your assertion is that a bipartisan group of lawmakers in Congress, got together to write an entire bill that otherwise broadly, and subsequently unconstitutionally, censored the internet. And despite the entire bill unconstitutionally abridging the first amendment forbidding Congress from regulating the freedom of speech, religion, press, and association one way or the other, the one section titled “Protection For ‘Good Samaritan’ Blocking and Screening of Offensive Material” is the one part that is clearly not Congress passing a law regulating free speech. And that particular section, of the same law, had nothing to do with the rest of the law.
I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just trying to get the facts straight because, as given facts about S230’s origin, I’m inclined to say that, were I present for the birth of Christ, his immaculate conception would seem more plausible.
I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing for or against. If you're trying to single out §230 from the CDA, great, but your link had nothing to do with §230 itself, just the entire CDA.
I personally think severability is unconstitutional, that no law should ever be divided into parts by any courts for any reason. It usurps Congress's role in passing legislation. Legislation is presumably a compromise hashed out in Congress by Congress critters, and the entire law should stand or fail as a single piece. If it's broken, Congress can try again. But courts should no put themselves in the position of cherry picking which parts continue; that is Congress's job.
If you’re trying to single out §230 from the CDA, great, but your link had nothing to do with §230 itself, just the entire CDA.
This is a rather explicitly backwards reading. I'm not trying to single out S230, specifically the opposite. Moreover, at the time, Reason didn't either. They didn't say "The CDA is unconstitutional except S230." they just said "The CDA is unconstitutional." The idea that even talking about the CDA is not talking about S230 and vice versa (especially in 1998) is retarded pettifogging or gish gallop.
Abbreviating:
As I said (strict legal severability aside) your (the) assertion is that the rest of the CDA that contained S230 was unconstitutional but the part specifically titled "Protection For ‘Good Samaritan’ Blocking and Screening of Offensive Material” abides the Constitution and/or the 1A, yes or no?
I understand not everybody believes in Jesus, I just want to be clear or for it to be understood that that's the line of reasoning or effectively what we're talking about here. That SCOTUS effectively fabricated something out of nothing but a pile of sin, it's divinity is incomprehensible to mortals, and it's being used to effectively cleave modern US history into Before S230 and Anno Domini.
It was actually the Supreme Court which decided the CDA was unconstitutional--except for section 230. I haven't read the case, and I don't know what their reasoning was based on, but at first glance I also don't see a potential constitutional violation in section 230. If you do, please identify the section in which such a violation might lie.
(In case you haven't read it, it's here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/230)
Sorry dude, I'm with Mad.Causal-relationship here.
Reason never, ever ever, ever ever once said "This CDA is a censorious, unconstitutional shit-show, it would be nice if we could find everything except the 230th slide in the powerpoint unconstitutional. When Matt Welch explicitly called for all "Federal Communications decency acts to be 'overturned'" he didn't suggest that before deleting the powerpoint, we highlight slide #230, hit-ctrl-c and then create a new powerpoint and hit ctrl-v and create a new law called "The First Amendment of the Internet, Just the Internet and Nothing But the Internet"
And once again, Tucille makes the exact same argument that ENB made, which was so bad, even SQRLSLY admitted it was a shit show: Without Section 230, there's be both too much speech and not enough speech! WHAT A WORLD! WHAT A WORLD!
Reason never, ever ever, ever ever once said “This CDA is a censorious, unconstitutional shit-show, it would be nice if we could find everything except the 230th slide in the powerpoint unconstitutional.
*Despite* it supposedly being the living, breathing heart of the internet and free speech today as we know it today. *And despite* the freakin' title.
Even the FF in The Constitution were like "Yeah, this slavery thing is a problem and we don't like it but, you know, 3/5ths is a decent compromise..."
Even in the larger audience, there wasn't really any of this "1A/26 words that created the internet" until circa 2014 in the HRC/Obama/NN era. In 2010, when Lieberman "made inquiries" at Amazon, Paypal, Visa, and Mastercard about the Assange/Wikileaks situation, nobody cried
Hypocrisy!Section 230! Because A) section 230 doesn't actually protect speech on the internet from government censorship and B) Amazon, Paypal, etc., etc. were just "MUH PRIVUT KORPORASHUNZ!"I mean, you *could* paint Glenn Greenwald as a pro-censorship, low-brow, Section-230-denying, right-wing nutjob when he criticized Joe Lieberman for acting like China, explicitly referencing the Great Firewall and freedom of speech. Or you *could* just acknowledge that outside SCOTUS, until the retcon sometime 2009-2017ish, S230 was conceptually regarded as a relatively meaningless leftover vestigial subsection of the unconstitutional CDA that didn't in any way protect free speech.
Yeah, but that whole Lieberman debacle, that was the example of too much speech that a non-section 230 world would negate.
I know there's a lot of double, triple and implied quadruple negatives in that statement, but it makes sense when you think about it.
Also, I’m not going to deny, that if one creates a law that says:
Abortion after the first trimester is illegal.
And then a court finds that law unconstitutional and blocks a collection of words and letters, leaving behind:
Abortion [……….] is […]legal.
That one could, at some point, look to the new court-revised law and say, “This law is the only thing standing between freedom and The HandMaid’s Tale.”
I might be willing to concede that as a valid viewpoint that we can agree to disagree on.
But… to make a more apt analogy, let’s say that in the constitution there was an amendment that read:
Congress shall make no law abridging the right of birthing people to terminate a pregnancy at any point of gestation.
And then 220 years later, a bunch of really smart people in Congress wrote a law– and I’ll just call it the Abortion Decency Act, which was very long, wordy, complex and contained multiple sections, and somewhere along the 230th section there was a collection of words and syllables which was titled “Aborting and terminating of offensive pregnancies” and in that 230th section it said something like,
“Provides immunity for operators of abortion clinics that remove or moderate unwanted materials and clumps of cells that the clinic deems “obscene, lewd, gross, wrong gender, too Trumpy or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such clump of cells is within 10 seconds of the magical trip down the birth canal”.
Then let’s say that a court finds all of that law unconstitutional, but leaves behind section 230.
Would you argue that without section 230, there would be both too much and too little abortion?
"OK, so, just to be clear; Your assertion is that..."
My only "assertion" was that you cited an article which didn't support your argument. You framed it as an article about Reason's opposition to "section 230", and it wasn't. Feel free to try again?
Feel free to try again?
Sure. OK, so, your assertion is that despite being contained in the CDA verbatim since the CDA's inception, even to the point of, then and now, being the sole crown jewel of the otherwise pile of shit that is the CDA, S230 has nothing to do with the CDA.
No. Stop being so intentionally obtuse.
I'm not being obtuse. I'm not SCOTUS, this isn't a court, severability isn't required. I need ObviouslyNotSpam to explain how S230 and the CDA are unrelated without discounting historical fact or plain English.
Otherwise, historical fact and plain English would dictate that, even in '96/'98 "Protection For 'Good Samaritan' Blocking and Screening of Offensive Material" should've been stricken down as part of the rest of the law for violating "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." and the notion that the CDA isn't material but S230 would kill or save the internet is what is really some obtuse Catholics and Mary vs. Protestants and Jesus, Unitarian vs. Trinitarian, free speech as handed down by the black-robed saints idiocy.
"Trying again" apparently doesn't help when you're so defensive it makes your eyes water. But, feel free to try again!
Don't be daft. That link is against the entire CDA, not just §230.
If I pointed at Reason's criticism of the ACA, Jonathan Gruber's deception, and the general terribleness of socialized medicine would you be saying "Don't be daft. That link is about the ACA, not just penaltaxing."?
If not to defend penaltaxing and/or the ACA, why would you do that? The unerring sanctity of SCOTUS?
He's not daft. He's doing it on purpose.
I was hoping that calling him daft might just provoke him into being sane long enough to tap out a short coherent reply. He's usually very coherent, even if contrary. I don't know what meds he took or did not take this morning.
S230 Idiots: "S230 has nothing to do with censorship. Never has. The CDA was unconstitutional censorship, not S230."
Me: Tell me again how "Blocking and screening of offensive material" has nothing to do with unconstitutional censorship. Be explicit.
I could go further to discuss how Greenwald, Taibbi, Weiss, etc... even people like Rogan and Tucker Carlson are tearing down their cathedral and that these morons quoting their own scripture to us in refutation only makes them look more stupid but, really, letting them preach is sufficient.
The 1st Amendment is a restriction on what Congress may do in relation to restricting free speech; it doesn't prevent anyone else from exercising their right to moderate the content allowed onto their own platform.
How is doing that "unconstitutional"? Be explicit.
How is doing that “unconstitutional”? Be explicit.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
-Is S230 a law passed by Congress?
Yes. No question. It was passed as part of the CDA.
-Does it “abridge free speech, or the press”?
Yes. Unless you consider ‘the press’ to be The Press and, even then, The New York Times and Amazon but not X or Compuserve in a very distinctly unequal fashion. And, even then, the 1A protects both speech and the press, not just The Press.
-Does it abridge the right to petition the Government for redress?
Yes, specifically.
If Bari Weiss and the New York Times are at legal odds with one another, a court may look as the claims and decide the case one way or the other or choose not to hear it, even with prejudice, but Congress cannot pass a law saying “The New York Times shall face no legal repercussions from any agreements to publish or not to publish with any reporters.” any more than it can say “The New York Times must hire Bari Weiss or any reporter.” It cannot pass a law that does it either way.
There might be some narrow conception where this could be critical, in a manner akin to gun manufacturers where you can’t just sue someone for printing words, but nobody’s doing that specifically and, arguably, the courts have means for dealing with this. Moreover, rather overtly, the presumed agents that would be exercising such a heckler’s veto or hyperlitigious trolling vexatious litigation or whatnot are subverting any such law in letter and/or spirit anyway and we interpret the 1A to be so broad that a Creationist teacher in some nowhere public school can and will be fired for teaching Creationism in under the guise of The State endorsing a form of speech and/or religion and violating non-association, despite there being no explicit Constitutional extrapolation from Congress to State and local education.
Even if I’ve misinterpreted or represented in text or in spirit what the law is or does, the fact that several administrations at various points and down to the level of local sheriffs and county prosecutors has done what it’s done demonstrates that the law isn’t in any way a check against tyranny or a backstop for free speech on the internet. Not the least of which being that the law itself cedes authority to criminal law.
As I’ve pointed out below; if the Nazis or Hamas or Gilead Republicans or The Libyans or The Soviets or Russian Hackers or whomever win elections and pass laws banning whatever speech they want to on the internet, Section 230 doesn’t in any way prevent them from doing so. It, in fact, shields the private actors abiding their wishes from private prosecution even if they knowingly and demonstrably violated their service agreements.
After reading:
social media companies and message boards would likely return to the previous era of either allowing anybody to say anything, or else taking legal responsibility for every insult and slur posted on their platforms.
I was beginning to wonder if maybe I needed to pull out every 5th letter to decode what Tuccille was trying to say without his captors knowing but then this little gem got included:
That would probably mean the end of online discourse as we know it
You mean the way entirely unregulated debate moderation rules kept killing debate for centuries and not the way that flaunting the rules and a culture of hyperpartisanship and bad faith dishonesty have, if not just killed it, then killed it, critically deconstructed and reconstructed it, and reanimated various pieces of the corpse in a [checks notes] Promethean Transformation?
I love 230. It lets a few companies collude with government to censor speech they don't like and prop up speech they do getting rid of those nasty people who criticize government and speak the truth.
It does? I mean, it doesn't prevent it but...
How would the removal of section 230 prevent this?
How would the removal of section 230 prevent this?
Fucking sealion retards.
"AFAIK casinos were invented after S230." - Quicktown Brix
Huh?
Why would anyone bother explaining anything about something that happened in 1996 to someone who thinks that casinos were uncommon until the 2000s (and can't grasp the relevance 3 days later)?
Better to either ignore that sea lion or club it to death and toss its corpse overboard before more climb on and it sinks the boat.
IOW, you're incredibly ignorant of history and even common book and movie tropes if you think casinos only became common in the 2000s, even only on the east coast.
Imagine just learning, in 2024, that former President Trump owned a casino *on the East Coast* *decades before the 00s*. If you weren’t 6, people would think you were mentally retarded or dishonest to the point of slandering actually mentally retarded people.
How many Casino's did Trump own in PA? How about NY? Florida? Maryland? Delaware? Anywhere besides Vegas or Atlantic city?
The discussion was about new laws for age of consent. So tell me, what was the legal age to gamble in a casino in PA in 1985? What was it in MA, VA, NY, DE, ME...?
OK. So I'm clearly taking a beating here. Help me out, what am I missing?
When I was a kid in Northeast PA, if you wanted to go to a casino, you went to Atlantic city or Vegas. Now you go 1h in any direction to find a casino. Casinos were not legal in any other areas.
As I pointed out:
Nevada was the first state to legalize casino operations in 1931, followed by New Jersey in 1976. South Dakota and Iowa were the next two states to legalize casinos in 1989. Another nine states legalized casinos between 1990 and 2007. Finally, six more states legalized casino operations since 2008
https://rockinst.org/issue-area/state-revenues-gambling-short-term-relief-long-term-disappointment/
Is it really so crazy to say casinos became common recently, just because they existed prior or because they were shown in movies?
Yes it is crazy. Common is an entirely relative term. Cheerios are very common in grocery stores, not so much in auto parts stores. Compared to Cheerios, casinos are not and never have been common. Compared to saber tooth tigers, casinos have been common since gambling was invented.
Your comparisons are pointless.
OK. Thanks for the feedback.
I was discussing laws for the minimum age you could gamble in casinos in that thread. I was making the case that most of these laws are new, because casinos became "common" relatively recently (meaning then existed in few jurisdictions previously, but now exist in many jurisdictions). I mean, maybe a poor choice of word to say common, but crazy?
1931 was when Herbert Hoover Republicans were using the communist income tax to loot anyone involved in felony beer. Casinos HAD to operate so folks could point to them to explain away profiting from trade and production. The Capone brothers claimed that what little they owned came from racetracks, where the lost even that pittance before filing tax forms. Sanctimonious looters ban commerce, traders circumvent the ban, men with guns are sent to rob the traders--all the way to Germany, even--and the economy collapses into a worldwide Great Depression. Surpriiiise!
Atlantic City only got casino's in 1976? I had thought they had been there for decades before that.
Yep. It seems, in the US, casinos only existed in Vegas before 1976, even though you'd have to be "incredibly ignorant of history" and "crazy" to say they weren't "common" throughout the 200 year history of the US up to that point.
But I'm not bitter.
That’s some funny shit right there.
I'm (hat tip to Vinni) not being too subtle about the parallels to anyone living in Maine who doesn't know what a Cuban Sandwich is am I?
How about this funny shit:
Here's [Bank of America Merrill Lynch] on the industry:
Any which way you slice it, the U.S. casino industry has seen dramatic growth over the last 20 years. Over that time, commercial gaming revenues have grown at a +10% CAGR, from only $10 billion in 1992 to a peak of $37 billion in 2007 (see Chart 18). This dramatic growth has been driven by ...the expansion of U.S. commercial gaming to new states and jurisdictions, primarily in the Midwest and Mid-Atlantic...
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-rise-of-the-native-american-casino-2013-3
2007 was Bush Junior's peak faith-based asset-forfeiture year before the economic collapse of 2008. Goons with guns confiscated mortgaged hemp grow houses for so much as a sprig in a pot. Suddenly, as forfeiture outpaced burglaries in dollar volume, the bottom fell out of mortgage-backed derivatives and left Baby Bush stammering about how "tha furee markit FAILED!" Elect a fanatical republican prohibitionist, economy collapses, blame freedom, rinse, repeat... Hoover, Nixon, Reagan, Bush1, Bush2--convergent series.
Libertarians be crazy
"...getting rid of those nasty people who criticize government..."
Where were their bodies dumped?
Sarc puppet incoming
I am really tired of such short-sighted repeatings of the establishment line. §230 only exists because the US judicial system is so expensive and slow that users cannot practically use it to hold Big Tech accountable for violating their own terms of service.
A proper judicial system would not need lawyers or years of scheduling delays. Even small claims courts are a joke as far as speed and simplicity.
But the last thing lawyers want is a populace able to solve problems without them, and the last thing government wants is people solving problems on their own. So they invented §230 as a sop to pretend there's some fairness in the system, and now it's morphed into this god-awful complicated lawyer-friendly system that no one understands.
Twat's so complicated by "web sites belong to their owners" and "those who wrote the words should be punished, if we REALLY must punish anyone, and NOT punish the web site owner"?
I hope shit doesn't happen, butt if shit takes YOU being punished for what I wrote, maybe THIS would help you to understand!
now it’s morphed into this god-awful complicated lawyer-friendly system that "no one understands".
Personally, akin to COVID, the psyops is the worst part. At every level since the beginning, if it's not overtly stated what's going on, then there are clues so obnoxious it makes Rian Johnson look subtle and, still, Reason et al. will say "The words clearly don't mean what they say and the historical facts that you were present for were too nuanced for you to understand. FYTW."
How is section 230 "lawyer friendly"? It literally prevents lawsuits!
Now, if you'd said it was "politician friendly", I would have had no argument with that at all. Just look at the Sunset Act! Fun for Dems and Repubs alike (and this is hardly the first time politicians have dined out on section 230).
Because, dipshit, it forces anyone who wants to hold Big Tech accountable to go the long expensive lawyer route. Any sane and practical legal system would hold a hearing almost immediately and be over in minutes or hours. Big Tech promises all sorts of advantages to using their system, explicitly and in marketing. Stay in touch with customers and family, they claim. Yet they can yank the rug out from under you with no notice and no obvious appeal. If that's not wrong, then it's only because the judicial system is written by lawyers for lawyers, and the last thing they want is common sense redress of grievances.
Because, dipshit, it forces anyone who wants to hold Big Tech accountable to go the long expensive lawyer route.
I don't entirely disagree with you here but, IMO, some significantly non-zero portion of the issue is tort reform and, again IMO, English v. American Rule.
Maybe a "Hey, you got S230 reform/repeal in my tort reform! You got tort reform in my S230 reform/repeal!" or "S230 reform/repeal tastes great but tort reform is less filling!" situation.
Yes, I am talking tort reform, and criminal reform too.
Loser pays ought to include everything spent, not just lawyer's fee. Wages lost, travel expenses, expert witnesses, everything which would not have been spent if it were not for the court case.
Let me make this clearer. If you block someone comments or delete an account just for fun, or simply without thinking, you should not be able to use that as an excuse for delaying a hearing while you pay some expensive lawyer to cook up some plausible but unlikely excuse.
Every action people take should be taken in light of good reasoning ahead of time, not excuses made up after the fact. If some flunky at Google deletes your account, the flunky better have known why before he did it. There is no excuse for needing to spend weeks and months paying expensive lawyers to argue about precedent from a century ago or the fine points of "is".
That is what is wrong with the US judicial system. It is written by lawyers for lawyer, interpreted by lawyers. It has nothing to do with justice, everything to do with expensive rituals.
"(c) Protection for “Good Samaritan” blocking and screening of offensive material
(1) Treatment of publisher or speaker
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.
(2) Civil liability
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be held liable on account of—
(A) any action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or
(B) any action taken to enable or make available to information content providers or others the technical means to restrict access to material described in paragraph (1)."
Section 230 prevents ALL lawsuits based on vicarious liability or for "good faith" efforts to restrict access to objectionable material. How many lawsuits has section 230 prevented? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Clearly, it is a lot.
Generally, when something makes lawsuits more likely, it is called "lawyer-friendly", and the opposite would also seem to be an appropriate description of the opposite effect.
Your objection appears to be that section 230 prevents certain types of lawsuits you think are beneficial, or perhaps makes them more expensive to prosecute. Fair enough, but that doesn't make section 230 "lawyer-friendly" in the normal sense.
ObviouslyNotSpam
"How is section 230 “lawyer friendly”? It literally prevents lawsuits!"
Team America, FUCK Yeah!!! ObviouslyNotSpam GETS this one!!!!
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
In recent years, Section 230 has been less a bulwark against censorship, than a shield to protect the censors and obscure what they do. It requires serious reform as it does not seem to be fit for purpose if open discourse is the goal.
How is Gov-Ran media not Gov-Ran media?
Reason is right. Gov needs MORE restraint not less.
Yes, good job, existing S-230 is one of those rare and precious gems where Government Almighty has willingly restrained their own powers.
We had Section 230 and we had all the major social media platforms be effectively government run.
What exactly did it do to restrain the government?
Well, yes, "Truth Social" is run by Government Almighty, if you consider Der TrumpfenFarter-Fuhrer to be the same as Sacred Government Almighty.
On the udder hand... MILK this one for all tit's worth... https://www.techdirt.com/2020/06/29/as-predicted-parler-is-banning-users-it-doesnt-like/ So is Parler perhaps a part of the cuntspiracy to SILENCE us all? ... I BLEEEEVE!!! No one can persuade me udderwise!!!!
Do you think the provisions of S-230 gave the Biden Administration and Demorat Congressmen permission to direct the media?
No. Actually the exact opposite happens. W/O S-230 the Administration can then start witch-hunting the press that didn’t fall-in-line with their demands.
This is exactly another one of Republicans DUMBEST moments ever. Opening the flood gates of governing for what they preach as 'good' things and getting kicked-in-the-*ss by their own stupidity when the Nazi's gain control again.
Section 230 has been less a bulwark against censorship
It was never a bulwark against *C*ensorship. In the section itself it explicitly grants priority to criminal law. If the Nazis or the Jews or the Palestinians or the Gilead Republicans get elected and start burning books, S230 is OK with it as long as they pass laws first.
It was *supposed* to be a bulwark against trolls and frivolous private litigation. Which, the latter, broad tort reform can conceptually/legally do, but the former, cannot effectively be accomplished without abrogating any/all due process, equal protection, free speech, petition, association, private contracts, etc. (even tort reform would touch on a few of these but it would fall under checks and balances, the government regulating itself, and less Congress regulating private industry *and* the judiciary). Congress (before checks and balances) would get to whimsically decide who is a troll and decide what they can or can't express in public and/or court.
burning books
Or seizing domains (Clicking the link might get you on a list.) or whatever the internet equivalent of Nazis burning piles of books is.
Ever asked yourself what Individual Liberty legislation / amendment isn't under constant attack?
If the [Na]tional So[zi]alist "New Deals" of Democrats was under attack as often and as constant as Liberties this nation just might stop going down like the Titanic.
Point & Case – Why is Section 230 being killed by a bipartisan attack instead of Democrats in Congress being indicted and impeached on OBVIOUS violations of the 1A. The media is showering the people with all the evidence they ever needed to prosecute these ‘calls’ to shut down the presses (abridge speech).
Lyin Ted to Democrat Judge: "So you took a six-foot-two serial rapist, serial child rapist with male genitalia, and he said, you know, I'd like to be in a women's prison. And your answer was, ‘That sounds great to me.’ God's Own Prohibitionists benefit from child-mutilator infiltration of Dems the way they benefit from pederast and anarco-communo-fascist infiltration of the LP these past 40 years. With competitors like anarco-tranny-kiddie-rapists, even book-burning girl-bulliers can muster votes by pointing and shrieking! THIS is the Invasion of the Booty-Snatchers
Are Booty-Snatchers related to Pussy Grabbers in any way?
Inquiring minds want to KNOW, dammit!!!
Section 230 Most Protects Small Fry, Not Big Tech
I guess Backpage.com is something Reason hasn't heard of.
https://autokeycard.com - ERR_CONNECTION_RESET
“The First Amendment—not Section 230—is the basis for our free-speech protections in the U.S.,” insist Pallone and Rodgers as they peddle a law that would extend their power over our conversations.
“Section 230 — not The First Amendment– is the basis for our free speech protections in the U.S.,” insists Reason as they peddle the Communications Decency Act and the Protection for Good Samaritan blocking and screening of offensive material law.
Imagine a world without Section 230... youtube would be flagging thousands of videos a day for copyright violations even sans any finding from any court that a copyright violation has even occurred, banning users for lab leak theories or shutting down videos because of inappropriate content for children due to FEC rules.
It’s good that America has a president who can feel the pulse of the nation when faced with these big issues. Now if anybody could actually feel the Presidents pulse…
Please unplug the Internet. It's like communism or a functioning Libertarian party. We tried it. It doesn't work.
You can leave; no one will care.
Ya know, we had a POTUS who supported 230, but then steaming piles of TDS-addled shit like Tuccille decided mean tweets were too high a price to pay, right shit-bag?