SCOTUS Weighs the Risk of Presidential Timidity Against the Risk of Presidential Impunity
Most of the justices seem skeptical of granting Donald Trump complete immunity from criminal prosecution for "official acts."

Without "absolute immunity" from criminal prosecution for their "official acts," Donald Trump's lawyer told the U.S. Supreme Court on Thursday, presidents will be afraid to do their jobs. "If a president can be charged, put on trial, and imprisoned for his most controversial decisions as soon as he leaves office, that looming threat will distort the president's decision making precisely when bold and fearless action is most needed," D. John Sauer warned the justices during oral arguments in Trump v. United States. "Prosecuting the president for his official acts is an innovation with no foothold in history or tradition," he said, and it is "incompatible with our constitutional structure."
To the contrary, Justice Department lawyer Michael Dreeben argued, "every president from the Framing through Watergate" understood that he could be prosecuted for abusing his powers. Sauer's "novel theory," he warned, "would immunize former presidents [from] criminal liability for bribery, treason, sedition, [and] murder" as well as "for conspiring to use fraud to overturn the results of an election and perpetuate himself in power," as alleged in this case. "Such presidential immunity has no foundation in the Constitution," Dreeben said. "The Framers knew too well the dangers of a king who could do no wrong. They therefore devised a system to check abuses of power, especially the use of official power for private gain."
Despite their diametrically opposed positions on the legitimacy of Special Counsel Jack Smith's election interference case against Trump, Sauer and Dreeben agreed on a few points. According to Sauer, former presidents can be prosecuted for "private acts," and they can be prosecuted even for "official acts" if they are first impeached and removed from office based on the same conduct. And according to Dreeben, former presidents cannot be prosecuted for decisions at the "core" of their constitutional authority, involving exclusive powers such as pardons, vetoes, appointments, and recognition of foreign governments.
Those concessions acknowledged competing concerns that the Court will have to weigh in deciding "whether and if so to what extent" a former president is immune from criminal prosecution for "conduct alleged to involve official acts during his tenure in office." While none of the justices dismissed Sauer's concern about politically motivated prosecutions, most of them seemed inclined to reject his maximalist solution to that problem.
Illustrating that discomfort, Justice Sonia Sotomayor raised a hypothetical that also came up when the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit considered Trump's immunity claim, which a three-judge panel unanimously rejected in January. "If the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person and he orders the military…to assassinate him," Sotomayor asked Sauer, "is that within his official acts…for which he can get immunity?" That "could well be an official act," Sauer said.*
Sotomayor questioned that assessment. "He's doing it for personal reasons," she said. "He's not doing it, like President Obama is alleged to have done it [when he ordered drone strikes that killed American citizens], to protect the country from a terrorist. He's doing it for personal gain. And isn't that the nature of the allegations here, that [Trump is] not doing these acts [aimed at overturning the results of the 2020 presidential election] in furtherance of an official responsibility; he's doing it for personal gain?…Immunity says, 'Even if you did it for personal gain, we won't hold you responsible.'…How could that be?"*
Suppose "a president orders the military to stage a coup," Justice Elena Kagan said. "That might well be an official act," Sauer said, meaning he "has to be impeached and convicted before he can be criminally prosecuted."
Chief Justice John Roberts also seemed skeptical of the notion that characterizing a decision as an "official act" is enough to trigger immunity. "Let's say the official act is appointing ambassadors, and the president appoints a particular individual to a country, but it's in exchange for a bribe," he said. "Somebody says, 'I'll give you a million dollars if I'm made the ambassador to whatever.'"
Based on the Court's 1972 ruling in United States v. Brewster, Sauer said, "the bribe and the agreement to accept the bribe are not official acts. That's private conduct." Although "accepting a bribe isn't an official act," Roberts noted, "appointing an ambassador is certainly within the official responsibilities of the president," and that power is an essential part of the crime. "Giving somebody money isn't bribery unless you get something in exchange," he said. "And if what you get in exchange is to become the ambassador to a particular country, that is official; the appointment [is] within the president's prerogatives. The unofficial part is I'm gonna get a million dollars for it."
In response to questions from Justice Amy Coney Barrett, Sauer conceded that several of the acts described in Smith's indictment of Trump, such as enlisting private attorneys to "spread knowingly false claims of election fraud," to file a verification that "contained false allegations," and to "implement a plan to submit fraudulent slates of presidential electors," would qualify as "private conduct." But Sauer argued that the government cannot combine that evidence with information about "official" acts, such as conferring with the Justice Department and state legislators, to prove that Trump conspired to defraud the government, deprive Americans of their voting rights, or obstruct an official proceeding.
Sauer's argument for presidential immunity hinges largely on his reading of the Impeachment Judgment Clause. When Congress impeaches and removes a federal official, that clause says, "the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law." According to Sauer, that means a former president cannot be prosecuted for officials acts unless he is impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate. Barrett noted two problems with that reading.
"There are many other people who are subject to impeachment, including the nine sitting on this bench," Barrett said, "and I don't think anyone has ever suggested that impeachment would have to be the gateway to criminal prosecution for any of the many other officers subject to impeachment. So why is the president different when the Impeachment Clause doesn't say so?" In 1973, Sauer replied, Solicitor General Robert Bork "reviewed historical materials" and concluded that "the sequence is mandatory only as to the president."
Barrett noted that requiring impeachment and removal prior to prosecution could leave serious crimes unpunished. "What if the criminal conduct isn't discovered until after the president is out of office," she wondered, "so there was no opportunity for impeachment?" The Framers "assumed the risk of under-enforcement," Sauer said, when they created "structural checks" against incursions on executive power.
Barrett also echoed a "pretty compelling" point raised by Smith: Although Sauer says a president can be prosecuted after impeachment and removal, "you also say that these criminal statutes, unless they explicitly mention the president, don't apply to him." Barrett noted that only "a few" criminal laws meet that test. Under that requirement, she said, a president who was impeached and removed after ordering a coup still could not be prosecuted without "a statute that expressly referenced the president and made it criminal for the president."
Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson questioned Sauer's position that the idea of prosecuting former presidents is historically unprecedented. "What was up with the pardon for President Nixon?" she wondered. "If everybody thought that presidents couldn't be prosecuted, then what was that about?" Sauer replied that Nixon "was under investigation for both private and public conduct at the time."
Several justices expressed concerns about the implications of completely rejecting presidential immunity. Justice Neil Gorsuch raised the possibility that a president could be prosecuted for corruptly obstructing an official proceeding if he "leads a mostly peaceful protest sit-in in front of Congress because he objects to a piece of legislation that's going through." He suggested that the threat of politically driven prosecutions might encourage presidents to pardon themselves just before leaving office, which would force the courts to address the issue of whether such pardons are legitimate.
"Like Justice Gorsuch, I'm not focused on the here and now of this case," said Justice Brett Kavanaugh. "I'm very concerned about the future." He said the case "has huge implications for the presidency, for the future of the presidency, for the future of the country." Kavanaugh suggested that the experience with vexatious presidential investigations by independent counsels illustrates the danger of "relax[ing] Article II a bit for the needs of the moment," adding, "I'm worried about [a] similar kind of situation applying here." He echoed Sauer's warning about tit-for-tat prosecutions, saying "when former presidents are subject to prosecution…it's going to cycle back and be used against the current president or the next president and the next president and the next president after that."
The D.C. Circuit thought "the risk that former Presidents will be unduly harassed by meritless federal criminal prosecutions appears slight." It noted that "prosecutors have ethical obligations not to initiate unfounded prosecutions" and that "there are additional safeguards in place to prevent baseless indictments, including the right to be charged by a grand jury upon a finding of probable cause." But as Justice Samuel Alito noted, prosecutors are not always ethical, and grand juries tend to give prosecutors what they want, as reflected in "the old saw about indicting a ham sandwich."
Alito worried about the consequences of inviting prosecutors to criminalize political differences. "If an incumbent who loses a very close, hotly contested election knows that a real possibility after leaving office is not that the president is going to be able to go off into a peaceful retirement but that the president may be criminally prosecuted by a bitter political opponent," he asked Dreeben, "will that not lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a democracy? We can look around the world and find countries where we have seen this process, where the loser gets thrown in jail."
At the same time, Alito seemed skeptical of Sauer's solution. "You believe that immunity from criminal prosecution is essential for the proper functioning of the presidency," he noted. But he wondered "whether the very robust form of immunity that you're advocating is really necessary in order to achieve that result."
Although "a president could say, 'I'm using an official power,'" Alito said, he might use it in "an absolutely outrageous manner." He suggested an alternative rule that would ask whether there was "no plausible justification" for a presidential act. For example, he said, "one might argue that it isn't plausibly legal" to order a military hit on a political opponent.
Sotomayor thought that standard would be tantamount to absolute immunity, because "anybody could argue plausibility." In the context of qualified immunity for government officials accused of violating constitutional rights, she noted, the standard is what a "reasonable" person would have believed was legal.
Jackson expressed skepticism about Sauer's argument that the possibility of criminal prosecution would have a paralyzing effect on presidential decisions. "Other people who have consequential jobs and who are required to follow the law make those determinations against the backdrop of that same kind of risk," she noted. "There are lots of people who have to make life-and-death kinds of decisions, and yet they still have to follow the law, and if they don't, they could be sent to prison."
Although "you seem to be worried about the president being chilled," Jackson added, "I think that we would have a really significant opposite problem if the president wasn't chilled." If "the potential for criminal liability is taken off the table" and "the most powerful person in the world…could go into office knowing that there would be no potential penalty for committing crimes," she wondered, "wouldn't there be a significant risk that future presidents would be emboldened to commit crimes with abandon while they're in office?"
[This post has been updated with additional comments from Kavanaugh and Jackson.]
*Correction: The original version of this post misattributed Sotomayor's assassination question to another justice.
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So now we hate “novel” theories?
Novelette theories are quicker to read.
Better than novel viruses.
"So now we hate “novel” theories?"
What part of "That's (D)ifferent" don't you get?
My favorite part was Kavanaugh asking the DoJ why Obama couldn't be convicted of murder for drone strikes. DOJ response was Obama met with the OLC, so it was legal. One of the actions Jack Smith charged Trump with is... meeting with lawyers.
"I have an orange. It is exactly like an apple," says JesseAZ.
"DOJ response was Obama met with the OLC, so it was legal. One of the actions Jack Smith charged Trump with is… meeting with lawyers."
Trump isn't being charged with meeting with OLC lawyers, is he?
The D.C. Circuit thought "the risk that former Presidents will be unduly harassed by meritless federal criminal prosecutions appears slight.
Seems to be more risk than assumed.
The question is whether former Presidents would be unduly harassed by meritless federal criminal prosecutions for things that they did while in office and that could reasonably be considered official acts. For things that they do before they are sworn in, things that they do that are not within their power to do while in office, and things that they do after they leave office, they should be treated like any other private person under the law.
^ This is the slimy pile of lefty shit who supports murder since the murdered might later do something the asshole doesn't like:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
^ This senile piece of shit is a giant coward who will be dead soon and the world will be a better place.
Go fuck yourself, DOL, you ban-evading, widow doxxing, piece of shit.
Fuck you lying sack of shit. I’m not DOL, I never doxxed a widow, and I’ve never been banned!
What evidence do you have of any of these accusations?
Fuck off you bigoted shitbag
^This slimy pile of lefty shit should be dead from an ass-reaming of a barbed-wire-wrapped broom stick.
The world would be better, its family would be rid of a bag of shit, and its dog would rejoice.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
I don’t care if you’re into that kind of shit, but leave me out of it.
Leave you out of it? Here the story goes you are one of the originators, fuck-face.
Babbit deserved it, and you deserve being a deadbeat keyboard warrior. Stay online faggot. Makes the real world easier for the rest of us.
Babbitt was in the process of committing a serious crime. I have no sympathy for people whom the cops kill while in the process of committing serious crimes.
The crime of getting shoved to the floor?
Babbitt is guilty of the crime of ordering one of her henchmen to bust out a window and then crawling through that smashed-out window in an attempt to invade a secured area while repeatedly refusing to obey law enforcement commands.
Imagine shooting a woman in the back and thinking you’ll get off.
Oh, I'm pretty sure he got off on it.
Stop the ste
The last words of Ashtray Babbitt that will inspire a new generation of patriots! Gee, I wonder what she meant by “ste”??? 😉
Massive electoral fraud?
Stuff a running rusty chainsaw up SB-F's ass.
Cool story, bra. Too bad it's fake. The autopsy shows Babbitt was shot in the shoulder.
"committing serious crimes."
Breaking a window?
Trespassing?
oVeRtHrOwinG (D)emocracy?
P(R)otesting.
"Babbitt was in the process of committing a serious crime..."
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
And that is no surprise to anyone who wastes time reading your constant stream of lies, slime pile of lefty shit.
You.
Are.
A.
Senile.
Coward.
Who.
Will.
Be.
Dead.
Soon.
You.
Are.
An
Assholic.
Pile.
Of.
Lefty.
Shit.
Who.
Should.
Be.
Dead.
Soon.
And I speak for your family and your dog.
Fuck off and die, shit-stain.
If you think you know what my dog thinks you must be suffering from dementia related psychotic.
Tell your wife to take you to a doctor ASAP, because that can be serious.
Why do you leftists come here? Your kind has no place among Americans. Get out and enjoy yourself. Since you people can’t learn to leave Americans alone, you probably don’t have much time left.
The cop shot here, then reported he was under fire to cover for the act he knew in the moment was illegal and unjustified. He was the only person to discharge a weapon. He knew he committed murder, then tried to endanger other people to cover his crime. He needs to be removed from his job and prosecuted for murder.
Ignoring the case at hand or the consequences of this particular paradigm shift, yes, it WAS slight.
It’s not that Presidents should have broad authority to act, but it’s that Presidents who represent the political will of the electorate need to be able to enact legal policies that are not universally popular. Because signing a bill that is supported by a massive 70% of the country but is completely hated by the other 30%, mostly major cities, doesn’t meant the President should be weighing his personal interest of avoiding prosecution against the role of justice.
What if the policy was a pardon of someone like Edward Snowden? And he knew he’d be accused of accepting a bribe in his post presidency? Or something that clearly advances the cause of liberty, like abolishing the ATF? Or refusing to enforce federal gun laws? Or withdrawing all troops on all foreign soil? We would want the President to be able to do those things without needing to weigh whether it’s in his personal interest to avoid post presidency malicious prosecutions.
No President other than John Tyler and Richard Nixon has ever even potentially faced a post-Presidency prosecution other than Donald Trump. In the case of Tyler, he clearly committed treason.
Maybe the problem isn't the current understanding of the law, it is the person whose lawyers are arguing to change it. Basically, Trump wants to be like an absolute monarch. Louis XIV all over again.
And supposed libertarians here are okay with that.
Louis iv all over again? You mean Marxists want to take a world power, kill everyone that made a functioning society, the run the civilization into ashes?
Good news if you like that you can move to south America they are running the same playbook
Poor Charlie
Basically, Trump wants to be like an absolute monarch.
Basically, Trump wants a bunch of fascists to stop trying to charge him with imaginary crimes in order to keep him from running.
No dumbass, Trump is a mortal threat to the people that already act like an all powerful oligarchy. You know, the people you blindly and stupidly worship.
Barack Obama assassinated a 16 year old American born and raised citizen, not only without due process, but ultimately without even an explanation as to why. The only reason he hasn't faced any repercussions for this is because the people who would normally do so are all on his side. "Principals not principles."
Every President in my lifetime has committed acts that would get me life in prison or lethal injection had I done them. Seems reasonable to establish just what is to be done about this dichotomy.
It's OK. BIden murdered a whole innocent family in Afghanistan. The folks involved investigated themselves and decided that it's not a big deal and no one would be punished.
Yeah, given that the left is very fond of lawfare it seems facially pretty obvious that every Republican that leaves office would immediately spend the rest of their life in court.
And it wouldn't be long before Republicans get it drilled into their thick skulls that those are the new rules, and then every President would spend the rest of their life in court once leaving office.
Which, I don't know, that seems appealing on one hand but on the other hand we all know that would just mean that the permanent bureaucracy would be the one's calling all the shots. We're not really all that far away from that already, but this would massively accelerate the process since it seems that other officials would still be shielded from lawsuits, just not the President.
AFAICT, the risk that former President Joe Biden will be unduly harassed by federal criminal prosecutions appears slight, with or without merit.
What are the standards for trying and punishing a criminal who has become non compos mentis, but was mentally competent when he committed the crime? How often has a federal prosecutor left a felon alone for serious crimes, solely because since he committed them he became senile?
"Seems to be more risk than assumed."
How many former Presidents have been "unduly harassed by meritless federal criminal prosecutions," for acts performed while in office, since the Constitution was ratified?
"You seem to be worried about the president being chilled," Jackson noted while questioning Sauer. "I think that we would have a really significant opposite problem if the president wasn't chilled."
This, exactly. If a President has to think about whether he actually has the authority to do something, I can only see that as a good thing.
How about a cop shooting an unarmed protester, bag of shit?
That happened over three years ago. I know you’re senile, but please try to keep up.
Go fuck yourself, Stolen Valor, you ban-evading, widow doxxing, piece of shit.
What the fuck does stolen valor mean?
Go watch one of your Dinesh D’Souza propaganda films you lying piece of garbage.
It means you're a lying pile of lefty shit, lying pile of lefty shit. Fuck off and die, asshole; make your family proud and the rest of the world who despises you happy.
Nice projection.
Anyone as old, senile, angry, cowardly, and pathetic as you has to be a burden on their family.
Nice projection.
Anyone of any age, imbecilic and worthless as you are undoubtedly a burden on those who have supported you until now, and worthless, further, in increasing the wealth of mankind.
Steaming piles of lefty shit are like that; fuck off and die. Soon.
Who let this pedophile back on the board? Seriously. This guy has posted literal cp and is still here ranting somehow.
If you are referring to Babbitt, she wasn't just a protester, she was leading an insurrection. There is a big difference.
You have to be a parody
Stop the ste!
Stop the ste!
Stop the ste!
Fuck off and die!
Fuck off and die!
Fuck off and die!
You will be dead soon!
You will be dead soon!
You will be dead soon!
You will be dead soon!
You will be dead soon!
You will be dead soon!
And likely destitute as a steaming pile of lefty shit, asshole.
Just an idiot.
"If you are referring to Babbitt, she wasn’t just a protester, she was leading an insurrection..."
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
She was protesting, and anyone outside of a fucking brain-dead pile of lefty shit knows that.
Only a retarded, pablum puking leftist (like you) would call J6 an insurrection.
You really are an insect among men.
Pablum puking?
Morton Downey Jr.?
Robert Downey jr. was puking up some nasty stuff in less than zero.
“You seem to be worried about the president being chilled,” Jackson noted while questioning Sauer. “I think that we would have a really significant opposite problem if the president wasn’t chilled.”
"This, exactly."
Yes, giving immunity for criminal acts, unless the person is first impeached, convicted, and removed from office, absolutely begs to have presidents do whatever they want in their final days in office. There's absolutely no risk for any federal crime they commit.
"Prosecutors have an ethical obligation to not bring unfounded prosecutions"
Ha ha ha ha.
Could someone explain that to Alvin Bragg, please?
The prosecution of Donald Trump is EXTREMELY well founded. A grand jury made indictments. The facts are EXTREMELY clear that Trump falsified business records multiple times, and each case is a separate crime under New York law. And Bragg is well known for his reluctance to prosecute anything.
And Bragg is well known for his reluctance to prosecute anything.
He said totally unaware of braggs campaign promises.
The statute of limitations expired.
Not for the felonies.
Which felonies would they be?
Trump falsified business records multiple times
Here’s why you’re a fascist.
1. Trump’s accountants did it. Trump doesn’t sit at the kitchen table with a calculator and a pencil filling in the boxes. Professionals far more qualified than a crooked Soros prosecutor are hired to figure out the taxes for billion dollar corporations.
2. They reported the income correctly. The IRS said it was correct. The auditing firm said it was correct. Only the crooked Soros-funded prosecutor said it was incorrect.
3. Trump actually paid more taxes the way they reported it. What kind of “fraudster” screws over the government by paying it more?
4. It’s an old cliche that the standard for getting a grand jury indictment is so low that prosecutors could successfully indict a ham sandwich.
Grand juries are the prosecutor’s babies. They decide who gets picked, what evidence gets presented, and what gets left out. There’s no judge, no defense attorney, and generally a defendant only testifies in rare circumstances — his story is so air tight that there’s no down side in putting him in. There’s no necessity for unanimity among the 23 or so jurors, and the standard of proof is so low — that probable cause exists to believe a crime has been committed — anyone, for the merest hint of an offense, can get indicted.
You’d have to be a retard of unbelievable stupidity to believe that getting a grand jury indictment.
I mean fuck, how many Reason articles have there been about the problems with grand juries over the years.
5. “And Bragg is well known for his reluctance to prosecute anything.”
Bragg campaigned explicitly on the promise that he would find a crime to charge Trump with if elected. The news stories and his campaign ads saying this are still all over the internet.
Now, I believe that you know all of the above. But the fact that you’re omitting mention of it a trying to fool people into thinking that the charges were even faintly legitimate; tells me that you want to see the an opposition candidate removed from contention through fraudulent means.
Charlie is a lying leftist cunt.
Here's why you're an idiot. You're cherry-picking pieces of the previous case and using those cherry-picks to somehow magically prove something on the current case. Two different cases, two different laws.
4. It’s an old cliche that the standard for getting a grand jury indictment is so low that prosecutors could successfully indict a ham sandwich.
Grand juries are the prosecutor’s babies. They decide who gets picked, what evidence gets presented, and what gets left out. There’s no judge, no defense attorney, and generally a defendant only testifies in rare circumstances — his story is so air tight that there’s no down side in putting him in. There’s no necessity for unanimity among the 23 or so jurors, and the standard of proof is so low — that probable cause exists to believe a crime has been committed — anyone, for the merest hint of an offense, can get indicted.
You’d have to be a retard of unbelievable stupidity to believe that getting a grand jury indictment.
I mean fuck, how many Reason articles have there been about the problems with grand juries over the years.
And, again, we'll get story after sob story about someone being sentenced to death by a separate jury and lamentations about the fact that, essentially 'American Rule' doesn't do dick in terms of disempowering aristocrats and/or the political elite.
"And Bragg is well known for his reluctance to prosecute anything."
Reluctance to prosecute real crimes with real victims.
It is not even clear that the underlying action Trump is accused of doing is a crime. The legal theory Bragg is prosecuting Trump under suggests that any action taken by a person running for office that influences the election can be made a criminal act.
Oh the irony. DOJ tried to state this very fact and the lawyer got mocked by Alito regarding indicting a ham sandwich and the DoJ lawyer conceded the point.
Alito and Thomas selectively apply both memes and laws.
For example, the DC Obstruction charge utilizes 18 U.S. Code § 1512(c)(2), taken out of context of the whole section. Here is the whole thing:
That’s the LawFare here. 18 U.S. Code § 1512(c)(2) was taken out of context with (c)(1). Under well accepted rules of statutory construction, notably here, ejusdem generis, it cannot be. (C)(1) is limited to someone who “alters, destroys, mutilates, or conceals a record, document, or other object”. That shouldn’t surprise anyone, because this statute is part of Sorbaines-Oxley, enacted in the aftermath of the Enron and Worldcom collapses. Ejusdem generis requires that that limitation be placed on (c)(2). Did Trump “alter[], destroy[], mutilate[], or conceal[] a record, document, or other object” in the acts Smith tries to criminalize? Of course not.
Don't give up your day job as a janitor at Walmart.
Yes, and the Supreme Court heard oral arguments on this statutory interpretation of 18 U.S. Code § 1512(c)(2), on 4/16/24 in the case of Fischer v. United States. From the oral arguments, my prediction is either 6-3 or 7-2 (with Jackson the swing vote there) for reversal, essentially rejecting the DOJ interpretation used in a number of J6 cases, and against Trump in Jack Smith’s DC case.
What was interesting in the oral arguments yesterday in the Trump v US case, is that statutory interpretation (likely of this statute) came up a time or two, and the Chief immediately squelched the discussion. The timing for Smith was probably unfortunate, because his attorney was trying to convince the Justices that former Presidents should be safe from political prosecution because of the professionalism of the DOJ, the prosecutors, and the grand jury system, 9 days after they heard the Fischer case, and probably had that case still fresh in their minds.
Pretty stupid insult. In any case, it’s another example of argument ad hominem, which is most often indicia that you have no real argument, or you would have made it.
"The prosecution of Donald Trump is EXTREMELY well founded. A grand jury made indictments. The facts are EXTREMELY clear that Trump falsified business records multiple times, and each case is a separate crime under New York law."
It's a separate misdemeanor, right? It only becomes a felony if it's in furtherance of another crime, right?
Hail Caesar?
Heil Drumpf!
I really like how the headline lines up with part of itself.
I was thinking the same thing.
"You seem to be worried about the president being chilled," Jackson noted while questioning Sauer. "I think that we would have a really significant opposite problem if the president wasn't chilled." If "the potential for criminal liability is taken off the table" and "the most powerful person in the world…could go into office knowing that there would be no potential penalty for committing crimes," she wondered, "wouldn't there be a significant risk that future presidents would be emboldened to commit crimes with abandon while they're in office?"
-----------------------------
This is the crux of everything. The more powerful the position, the more scrutiny & limitation must applied to that power or you're asking for tyranny.
If you weren’t worried about this when a Democrat was in office you don’t get to worry about it now. Also, you lost all credibility quoting the second dumbest person on the USSC bench without mentioned Trump's lawyer's response that turned her into a blubbering moron. Can you guess which one the dumbest one is?
Hate to break it to you but this Supreme Court decision will kiss pretty much every outstanding case against Trump good bye and a somutely no one cares about whats going on in the blatantly kangaroo "courts" in Manhattan.
See you in November, libby.
Courts in Manhattan are used to having cases of financial fraudsters like Trump. This one just adds some sex to the money. Trump is in big trouble, his lawyers know it, and he knows it. It will be hard to serve as President from a New York prison cell and he will not be able to pardon himself.
Of course Trump is in big trouble.
A crooked Democrat prosecutor who's campaign was funded by George Soros, and who's sole campaign promise was to "Get Trump", has charged him with an invented crime, for something that the IRS said was correct, and meant he paid more taxes than if he had done it "Braggs way".
He's literally been charged with overpaying taxes to the government. If that's not getting fucked I don't know what is.
Meanwhile, a partially retarded shill is trying to trick people in the Reason comments into thinking that this is somehow legitimate, with invective but zero examples.
"Courts in Manhattan are used to having cases of financial fraudsters like Trump..."
TDS-addled shit-piles like Charlie keep claiming Trump is 'a fraudster', and they have exactly zero cases to make that claim.
Stuff your head up your ass; your TDS is already there and is hoping for company, asshole.
Better we just get rid of the democrats. Your kind are too much trouble to remain here.
If you aren't worried about this with the Democrat currently in office and other Democrats who will be in office, you're dumber than you look. And that's pretty damn dumb.
Scrutiny doesn't include criminal charging retard. The checks and balances are the Senate and courts. Not a low level DA.
What is he being charged with? Most voters have lost track and really don’t want to live in a democrat run socialist shithole.
Whatever the claim is, he's, in reality, being charged with being Donald Trump.
Donald Trump has been running an organized criminal enterprise for his entire adult life, so yes, that is accurate. Everyone in NYC seems to know someone who has been stiffed by him. Nobody on Wall Street was willing to even underwrite an appeal bond in a civil case, he has stiffed people so many times. His credit rating and the lack of transparency in his finances would make it impossible for him to get a low level job for any defense contractor even if he did NOT openly side with enemies of the US in every major conflict right now.
Basically, he is exactly the kind of stooge Hitler and Stalin used to install in their puppet regimes in the countries they took over.
Exectives from Deutsch Bank testified under oath that they would loan Trump money again.
Which proves nothing. Because, you see, they refused to loan him the money for his appeal bond.
So they lied under oath?
"has been running an organized criminal enterprise for his entire adult life"
By doing what? This isn't Huffpo. If you want to shill here, you're going to have to give some examples to back up your wild accusations.
"Donald Trump has been running an organized criminal enterprise for his entire adult life..."
Do your brains leak out your ears once you decide to be a brain-dead lefty, or are they gone much earlier and you find a VOP which matches your empty skull.
Are you proud of repeating outright lies all day long, shit-stain?
Are you proud of being a senile coward who is a burden on your family?
You, as a brain-dead pile of shit, have no idea of what out heirs will receive, but given that you are a brain-dead piece of shit, that is no great surprise.
Fuck off and die, shit-stain.
Are you proud of being a subnormal leftist bigot that scut for the same cloth as followers of Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot?
Yeah, you are.
He's definitely guilty of that!
"Whatever the claim is, he’s, in reality, being charged with being Donald Trump."
So the obstruction charges in the Mar a Lago documents case are not valid? Why not?
How about if a president ordered the murder of a us citizen and his child without a trial, or is that okay because we just assume niggers are murderers?
For some reason I doubt you're referring to Nawar al-Awlaki...
So reverting presidential power back to the states means he wants to be a monarch? Put a round through your head
But film it, so we can watch over and over again.
A woman with balls that swims for Penn deserves more power in a presidential election than a Marine in California!
Walls! Closing! In!
I bought a harmonica and I'm mailing it to Trump for Christmas so he can play the jailhouse blues while serving his sentence in Guantanamo Bay.
But as Justice Samuel Alito noted, prosecutors are not always ethical, and grand juries tend to give prosecutors what they want, as reflected in "the old saw about indicting a ham sandwich."
Name one example, just one.
Bragg
Jack Smiths last rebuff at the USSC?
Doubt it. For one thing the decision for Fischer v US will probably drop about the same tie as this one (oral arguments were 9 days earlier).
But that’s mostly the DC J6 case. The FL classified documents case is different. It revolves around Trump’s possession of documents that Smith and Bratt claim are (re)classified and govt. property. Unfortunately, despite the WH ordering that Trump’s security clearances be revoked (presumably for building this case), they hadn’t gotten around to revoking his DOE Q clearance at the time of their MAL raid. After that, they had the (formerly) classified documents. He didn’t.
My view is that it’s falling apart, on its own, with the help of a Trump appointed trial judge (Cannon) who has called BS on their legal shenanigans. They pushed hard for a March trial date, while denying the defense access to much of their evidence, because it was supposedly classified. While they were slow walking the security clearances for his attorneys so that they could view it. She essentially said no trial until the defense has all of the Brady evidence due them (DC judges apparently routinely waived through Brady violations for J6 defendants). A couple days ago, she released a mostly unredacted document that showed that the case had originated with the WH working closely with the AG. It had previously been classified to hide just that fact. Most of a month ago, she proposed two jury instructions to the parties, that undercut most of the prosecution’s case. They were, of course, livid. But what can they do at this point? After all, she hasn’t really settled on the jury instruction that she will adapt. So, interlocutory appeal is probably out until she does. Meanwhile, the clock keeps ticking. At best, they may see trial in June. But probably August or September, in the heat of election season. Which likely means, at best December or January. Too bad. So sad.
Are war crimes considered official acts?
Only when committed by Trump. He's "special".
This is all very silly. There's no trade off between Presidential timidity and Presidential immunity, because the President has always had the power to immunise himself (for both official and private acts) under the pardon power. He can also immunise anyone else he might hire to assist him in his criminal acts.
So the trade off is between Presidential timidity and .... squat.
The USSC disagrees. The DoJ lawyer tried to bring up self pardons and the USSC said the question was not before the court and would be addressed later if needed.
Um..... Is there a criminal case against Trump that isn't a complete joke?
Yes, four cases.
I'd place bets those just a complete joke as well.
Yes, all of them. Trump is a criminal. He got caught. Now he has to pay the price for committing his crimes. Just like any other street thug.
Haha. You’re gonna be so disappointed…
"Um….. Is there a criminal case against Trump that isn’t a complete joke?"
Why do you consider the Mar a Lago documents case a "complete joke"? Particularly the obstruction of justice charges?
Unless you consider the Mar a Lago documents case a complete joke, including the obstruction of justice charges, there's your answer.
"would immunize former presidents [from] criminal liability for bribery, treason, sedition, [and] murder"
The slope's looking awfully slippery. Or just a flat out lie.
Then quit lying.
It does seem that Donald Trump lawyers have achieved the goal of further delaying his trials. I don't see the Justices giving Presidents blanket immunity but it is clear they will give Presidents some immunity, for official acts. This then will lead to further delays sorting out what is and what is not an official act which will again have to go through appeals. I do see a trial for Trump but it appears he can delay long after he is gone.
Jack Smith is a direct employee of AG Garland. He has no job protections, and no job the day that Trump (or another Republican) is sworn in as President.
I had a hard-boiled egg and plate of fruit for breakfast. Served up with a nice, cold glass of milk.
You say that, knowing that the same thing applies to every USA who has ever been appointed.
Not really. AUSAs have civil service job protections. That means just cause is usually required to fire them. Since Smith wasn’t hired into a defined position, he doesn’t have those protections. But, yes, the President can fire USAs at will. One refused to resign when requested, after Trump was elected (they have a 4 year term of office, if Senate confirmed, otherwise 120 days). He lost.
We are probably nearing the unfortunate day when every departing president will have to grant himself a pardon, unless this Supreme Court can come up with a comprehensive and persuasive rule regarding when the president is liable for official acts that also produce a beneficial personal interest.
Having had a highly controversial recent one-term president, and having experienced a flood of pretextual politicized cases to prevent a second term, we are currently experiencing a national anxiety disorder that improperly interferes with business-as-usual.
“If the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person and he orders the military…to assassinate him,” Kagan asked Sauer, “is that within his official acts…for which he can get immunity?” Let’s replace “military” with “DOJ/ State Prosecutors” and replace “assassinate” with ” prosecute” and we get exactly what is occurring now to Trump. Killary and Biden have both been given passes for top secret documents. If we are discussing election interference- how about the collusion of the Clinton Campaign and the FBI in 2016 with fake dossier. Illegal FISA warrants. Ah, but it's only the “orange man” that deserves prosecution.
Bananaman has an orange that he's trying to transmogrify into an apple.
Overly broad and nearly unlimited executive power is only okay when the President has a (D) after their name.
Seriously, can libertarians not see how dangerous this sort of thing is when not applied consistently regardless of who the President is? I'm all for throwing them all in jail, but saving punishment for Donald Trump and _only_ Donald Trump is far worse than not punishing any of them.
"Seriously, can libertarians not see how dangerous this sort of thing is when not applied consistently regardless of who the President is? I’m all for throwing them all in jail, but saving punishment for Donald Trump and _only_ Donald Trump is far worse than not punishing any of them."
If 46 men committed murder, and only one was prosecuted, would you say that's worse than if none of the 46 were prosecuted?
So when is that paywall to posting supposed to kick in ?
Remember that time when Obama decided he was entitled to blow a 14 year-old American citizen to bits in a drone strike, along with a bunch of bystanders, without so much as an indictment against him, let alone a conviction of a capital crime, just because he'd already done the same to the kid's father?
When's he getting prosecuted for that?
-jcr
Around the same time someone else gets prosecuted for killing Nawar al-Awlaki?
Except the DOJ did investigate those drone strikes and concluded they were legal. Regardless of whether that conclusion was right or wrong, there was a criminal investigation.
"When’s he getting prosecuted for that?"
Hopefully, soon. But even if that doesn't happen, that's no reason not to prosecute other former presidents for the crimes they committed.
For people who claim to love "textualism" and "originalism," there's a whole lot of you who think that presidents should be immune from criminal prosecution for official acts despite there being *zero* textual or historical evidence of such immunity. Sounds like some serious living constitutionalist bullshit advocating for the Constitution to be interpreted in a particular way because of modern policy concerns. But if those concerns are serious, then it should be up to Congress to pass a law balancing whether and how presidential immunity applies.
In addition, "official acts" immunity is completely antithetical to the idea of separation of powers/checks and balances. Congress is supposed to be able to check the president by passing laws and controlling the power of the purse. But that check is illusory if the president can disregard those laws and/or illegally spend federal funds without fear of prosecution.
Likewise, an immune president could feel free to illegally disregard any order from the Supreme Court. If immunity applies, Biden should forgive all student loans tomorrow without respect to any injunction. What are they gonna do, hold him in contempt? Nope, he's immune!
Finally, there is this idea that official acts immunity is necessary for a chief executive or head of state to operate effectively or is somehow necessary to protect normal democratic functions. That is simply false as a factual matter. At the state level, governors are analogous to presidents, and there have been numerous prosecutions of governors who corruptly abused their powers of office (e.g., Rod Blagojevich, Ray Blanton, Edwin Edwards, etc.). And at the international level, recent heads of state in modern democracies have also been subject to prosecution (e.g., Ivo Sanader of Croatia, Jacques Chirac of France, Nicolas Sarkozy of France, Christian Wulff of Germany, Moshe Katsav of Israel, Ehud Olmert of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, Silvio Berlusconi of Italy, Lee Myung-bak of South Korea, Jose Socrates of Portugal, etc.). And yet, somehow none of these states or countries have fallen into chaos, and subsequent governors and officials have still been able to do their jobs. The justices are just way too open to an argument that is, simply, delusional.
What’s funny here is that the very prosecutors claiming that Presidents don’t have immunity for official acts, have, themselves, qualified immunity for the same thing. The difference here is that immunity is far more important for official acts, for the President, than for any one of hundreds of thousands of prosecutors across the country. And, yes, their qualified immunity is judge created law.
So much wrong in your response.
1. Prosecutors don't have qualified immunity in any context. They have absolute immunity from civil liability for prosecutorial acts. But they do not have absolute immunity from criminal liability, not even for their official prosecutorial acts. So there is nothing inconsistent with prosecutors arguing that the president shouldn't have absolute immunity from criminal liability.
2. Qualified immunity only relates to civil liability. Cops on the street who break the law while carrying out their official duties are every bit as subject to criminal prosecution as anybody else (at least as a matter of law).
3. I'm very aware that the Supreme Court invented qualified immunity, and I wholeheartedly disagree with that decision and advocate for abolition of qualified immunity. That said, qualified immunity from civil suits is a matter of statutory law, meaning that Congress could do away with the doctrine if it so chose. But the absolute immunity from criminal liability that Trump is arguing for is a matter of constitutional law.
The fact is that Congress can impeach and prosecute, which has been and still is the remedy.
I suppose my question is how are you looking to change that, exactly? Should state AG be able to sue the President? Should I be able to sue the President? Should the permanent bureaucracy be able to sue their boss?
Genuinely wondering what the new standard is intended to be.
Also, given the creeping power of the executive branch what shall we determine ‘official acts’ to be, exactly? If we narrow the focus to the actual enumerated powers of the executive, every modern President since FDR could be taken to court by any citizen, correct?
Also, as Bruce notes above the President is not alone in this form of immunity. Everyone down to street level cops have the same, which may indeed be a problem but somehow I don’t see a lot of people who are willing to strip them of their immunity which is rather curious since these are the street level enforcers who are actually carrying out the orders. Why does that make them immune to prosecution for ‘just doing their jobs, man’.
The "new standard"? Do you actually believe this is a policy discussion? There may be good and bad reasons why a president ought to have or not have immunity, but none of that is relevant to an originalist interpretation of the Constitution. If the Constitution doesn't answer a vitally important question, the originalist take on that is that the Constitution should therefore be amended to resolve that vitally important issue. If the people don't agree to do that, then it isn't vitally important (at least, not in a Constitutional sense).
What this case will do is expose the fake originalists.
No, not the usual suspects who currently pollute the Reason comments section, but those who sit on the Supreme Court. There will be nowhere to hide after Trump v. U.S.A.
Both you and Bruce are conflating immunity from *civil* liability with immunity from *criminal* liability. They are not remotely the same. Cops do not have absolute criminal immunity for acts taken in their official capacity (e.g., Derek Chauvin currently in jail for a murder committed in his role as a cop). Judges do not have absolute criminal immunity for acts taken in their judicial capacity (e.g., Judge Robert Frederick Collins, who was convicted of accepting a bribe to influence his sentencing of a drug smuggler). Prosecutors do not have absolute criminal immunity for acts taken in their prosecutorial capacity (e.g., Ken Anderson, a Texas prosecutor who was jailed for prosecutorial misconduct that led to a wrongful conviction).
If SCOTUS holds that presidents have absolute immunity for their official acts, then presidents would be the only officials in the country to have such immunity.
Judges and prosecutors already have absolute immunity for official acts.
Bruce disagrees.
No. I was talking the sort of qualified immunity that those prosecuting Trump have. If given my druthers, I wouldn’t give judges absolute immunity, just like I wouldn’t do so for prosecutors or FBI agents. But it’s not my call.
Wrong. They have absolute immunity from *civil liability* for actions done in their judicial or prosecutorial capacities. But they definitely do not have absolute immunitSeey from *criminal liability* for such actions, which is what Trump is arguing for at the Supreme Court.
Robert Frederick Collins is a former federal judge who was convicted for accepting a bribe related to his sentencing of a drug smuggler. Michael Conahan was a judge in Pennsylvania who was convicted of fraud, money laundering, and racketeering in connection with his judicial service. Other American judges convicted of crimes committed in their judicial roles include Tracie Hunter, Rolf Larsen, Allen Loughry, Thomas J. Maloney, Joan Orie Melvin, Thomas J. Spargo.
With the exception of diplomatic immunity, nobody in the United States has ever been granted absolute immunity from criminal liability. Not judges. Not prosecutors. Not cops. And not the president - unless SCOTUS decides to invent such immunity out of thin air.
Michael says the same thing in every similar article.
Either he has never read any of the numerous other comments pointing out his error, or he lives in MAGAworld, where alternative facts rule the day. Which one do you think applies to Michael?
But their prosecutorial discretion is not that different fro immunity.
There is absolutely zero similarity between prosecutorial discretion and immunity.
"Prosecutorial discretion" refers to a prosecutor's discretion on whether to prosecute a crime and how, or choose not to prosecute at all.
"Immunity," in this context, refers to whether a prosecutor can be criminally charged for acts that they take as a prosecutor.
One has literally nothing to do with the other, unless you are arguing that prosecutor's are entitled to criminal immunity for choices they make while exercising their prosecutorial discretion. In which case you would be wrong. If prosecutors commits crimes in his prosecutorial capacity, they are subject to criminal prosecution.
Robert Frederick Collins is a former federal judge who was convicted for accepting a bribe related to his sentencing of a drug smuggler.
Accepting bribes is not an official act.
Sentencing a drug smuggler is, and it is that element that makes it criminal. Merely accepting money from somebody is not criminal. It is the agreement to use official power that makes it criminal.
Regardless, you will not be able to provide any authority for the proposition that judges have immunity from criminal prosecution for their official acts. No such authority exists -- a fact that was discussed at oral argument:
"JUSTICE BARRETT: Okay. So there are many other people who are subject to impeachment, *including the nine sitting on this bench,* and I don't think anyone has ever suggested that impeachment would have to be the gateway to criminal prosecution for any of the many other officers subject to impeachment. So why is the president different when the Impeachment Clause doesn't say so?"
Should have asked whether an ex-president could be prosecuted after they left office for having a bunch of Supreme Court justices assassinated during his presidency as an ‘official act’.
The duties of the Executive office are clear and simple. Foreign affairs. Chief of the military and ambassadors.
NOT domestic affairs.
NOT the economy.
Governing is the job of Congress.
But the people, both sides, want the president to have more power. Because they don't really understand democracy. Kings and dictators are easier to understand. We are surrounded by idiots.
I think that was the theory. The reality is an Executive Branch that employees millions. And the President is the head of the Executive Branch, is responsible for their actions, and is the Constitutional source of their power. So, while he may do far more than you or our founders envisioned, that is far better than the alternative, which is a permanent government bureaucracy that is not run by a President, who can, within limits, hire and fire. Such a bureaucracy controlled and run by Congress would be run by no one, and thus a power unto itself.
And the BS propaganda "understand democracy" and trying to explain how it sets 'duties' and assigns 'congress' to govern within those duties doesn't help them understand it at all.
It's the US Constitution that make that part "clear and simple."
The USA is a *Constitutional* Republic NOT 'a democracy'.