Trump's Supreme Court Brief Rebuts the Claim That He 'Engaged in Insurrection'
He is asking the justices to reject the Colorado Supreme Court's conclusion that he is disqualified from running for president.

In a brief filed on Thursday, Donald Trump's lawyers urge the U.S. Supreme Court to reject the claim that he is disqualified from running for president under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment because he "engaged in insurrection" by inciting the Capitol riot on January 6, 2021. Their arguments echo the points they made in their petition asking the justices to review the Colorado Supreme Court's December 19 decision to that effect. Among other things, the new brief fleshes out Trump's rebuttal of the premise that his conduct on January 6 can accurately be described as engaging in an "insurrection" against "the Constitution of the United States."
That section of the brief is highly misleading in some respects, minimizing the recklessness of Trump's pre-riot speech and his inexcusable dereliction of duty after the assault on the Capitol began. Those actions and inactions rightly led to Trump's impeachment by the House and should have resulted in his conviction by the Senate, which would have barred him from running for president again. But it does not necessarily follow that they amounted to engaging in an insurrection, and Trump's lawyers offer several cogent reasons to reject that assessment.
"No prosecutor has attempted to charge President Trump with insurrection" under 18 USC 2383 "in the three years since January 6, 2021, despite the relentless and ongoing investigations of President Trump," the brief notes. "And for good reason: President Trump's words that day called for peaceful and patriotic protest and respect for law and order. In his speech at the Ellipse, President Trump told the crowd to 'peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.' And he encouraged 'support [for] our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement.'…President Trump also sent tweets throughout the day instructing his supporters to 'remain peaceful' and '[s]tay peaceful,' and he released a video telling the crowd 'to go home now.'"
That description omits crucial context, including the two months that Trump had spent ginning up his supporters' outrage with phony claims of a stolen election, his messages encouraging them to attend a rally that he said would be "wild," and the apocalyptic rhetoric of his speech at the Ellipse, which warned that Congress was about to destroy democracy by anointing a pretender as president. "We're going to have somebody in there that should not be in there," he said, "and our country will be destroyed, and we're not going to stand for that." If his supporters did not "fight like hell," he warned, "you're not going to have a country anymore." In this context, it was completely foreseeable that at least some of Trump's followers would resort to violence when he directed them to march on the Capitol in protest against the imminent certification of Joe Biden's victory, notwithstanding his instruction that they should do so "peacefully and patriotically."
The brief also ignores the ways in which Trump continued to stir up his supporters even after the riot began, including his tweet condemning Vice President Mike Pence for lacking the "courage" to unilaterally obstruct the electoral vote tally. And it glides over the timing of Trump's supposedly pacifying messages. He asked his supporters to "stay peaceful" and to "support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement" at 2:38 p.m., nearly two hours after rioters overran the police perimeter around the Capitol and half an hour after they invaded the building itself. He told them to "remain peaceful" about 15 minutes later, and in both cases his phrasing obscured the fact that his supporters' behavior at that point was decidedly not peaceful. Trump "released a video telling the crowd 'to go home now'" at 4:17 p.m., nearly three and a half hours after the riot started. Even then, Trump continued to insist that "we had an election that was stolen from us," so "I know how you feel."
In the hours before Trump reluctantly recorded that video, he was watching the violence unfold on TV and resisting entreaties that he intervene. "This is what happens when they try to steal an election," he reportedly told a White House lawyer. He publicly offered the same take on Twitter around 6 p.m.: "These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!"
Trump's brief, in short, offers an expurgated account of his actions that would leave an uninformed reader puzzled about why his behavior was egregious enough to provoke bipartisan condemnation and trigger his second impeachment. His lawyers nevertheless raise several cogent points that cast doubt on the Colorado Supreme Court's conclusion that he "engaged in insurrection."
Trump "never told his supporters to enter the Capitol, and he did not lead, direct, or encourage any of the unlawful acts that occurred at the Capitol—either in his speech at the Ellipse or in any of his statements or communications before or during the events of January 6, 2021," the brief notes. Nor did Trump "engage in" any of the unlawful actions, such as fighting with police and forcibly entering the Capitol, that the Colorado Supreme Court cited as evidence that the riot qualified as an insurrection.
"Raising concerns about the integrity of the recent federal election and pointing to reports of fraud and irregularity is not an act of violence or a threat of force," Trump's lawyers say. "Giving a passionate political speech and telling supporters to metaphorically 'fight like hell' for their beliefs is not insurrection either." The voters who challenged Trump's inclusion in Colorado's presidential primary ballot "must show that President Trump's own conduct—and not the conduct of anyone at the Capitol on January 6th—qualifies as 'insurrection,'" the brief argues. "And this they cannot do."
Trump's lawyers note that the Colorado Supreme Court relied heavily on the testimony of Chapman University sociologist Peter Simi, who averred that Trump had a pattern of using "coded language" that hotheaded supporters would understand as a call to violence. "This Court should not allow a candidate's eligibility for the presidency to be determined or in any way affected by testimony from a sociology professor who claims an ability to decipher 'coded' messages," the brief says. "The fact remains President Trump did not commit or participate in the unlawful acts that occurred at the Capitol, and this Court cannot tolerate a regime that allows a candidate's eligibility for office to hinge on a trial court's assessment of dubious expert-witness testimony or claims that President Trump has powers of telepathy."
As the brief notes, the Colorado Supreme Court also "faulted President Trump for (in its view) failing to respond with alacrity when he learned that the Capitol had been breached." But "even if that were true (and it isn't)," Trump's lawyers say, "a mere failure to act would not constitute 'engagement' in insurrection, as even the Colorado Supreme Court recognized." That parenthetical "and it isn't" is blatantly at odds with the evidence, which shows beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump failed to "respond with alacrity" (a polite way of putting it). But his lawyers otherwise are on firm ground in arguing that such a failure is not enough to establish that Trump "engaged in" an insurrection.
The brief also plausibly argues that Trump's behavior did not meet the definition of proscribable incitement laid out in the 1969 Supreme Court case Brandenburg v. Ohio. In that decision, the Court said even advocacy of illegal conduct is protected by the First Amendment unless it is both "directed" at inciting "imminent lawless action" and "likely" to do so.
"The Brandenburg standard does not turn on whether violence actually occurs in response to a person's speech," the brief notes. "It only matters whether the speech itself was 'intended' and 'likely' to incite imminent violence, and the constitutional status of President Trump's statements would be no different if he had given the same speech and his supporters remained entirely peaceful as he urged. This Court would never tolerate criminal prosecution of a speaker who tells his audience to 'fight like hell' and 'take back our country,' as language and rhetoric of this sort is common in political discourse."
In a widely read 2023 law review article, University of Chicago law professor William Baude and University of St. Thomas law professor Michael Stokes Paulsen make an originalist case for a broad reading of Section 3 that they say clearly covers Trump's conduct. Even if that view ran afoul of First Amendment precedents, they argue, Section 3 would trump freedom of speech as the Supreme Court has defined it. Trump's lawyers, by contrast, argue that his speech at the Ellipse fails the Brandenburg test and therefore cannot qualify as insurrection under Section 3: "Because President Trump did not 'incite violence' under Brandenburg, it follows per se that he did not 'engage in insurrection' either."
If the Capitol riot qualified as an insurrection and if Trump's actions amounted to engaging in that insurrection, the implications could extend far beyond one especially odious demagogue. In 2020, his lawyers noted in their Supreme Court petition, "violent protesters" in Portland, Oregon, "targeted the federal courthouse…for over 50 days, repeatedly assaulted federal officers and set fire to the courthouse, all in support of a purported political agenda opposed to the authority of the United States." Those are all crimes, of course, but do they also amount to insurrection under 18 USC 2383? Could a politician who delivered fiery remarks at such a protest be barred from office under Section 3?
The claim that Trump's January 6 speech passes the Brandenburg test likewise opens a can of worms. The 2020 protests against police brutality inspired by George Floyd's death frequently turned violent. Does that mean protest leaders can be held civilly or criminally liable for that violence, even when they neither advocated nor participated in it? The question is not theoretical.
The Supreme Court need not engage these questions to reject the conclusion that Section 3 applies to Trump, since there are several other plausible grounds for deciding that it does not. But the attempt to characterize what Trump did as engaging in an insurrection or as incitement under the Brandenburg test, while understandable given the Senate's failure to hold him accountable for his reckless behavior on January 6, opens the door to applications of those concepts that his opponents may not like.
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So much for free speech.
Democrats support the Constitution.
Except for the dangerous First Amendment.
And the even more dangerous Second Amendment.
And the outdated Tenth Amendment.
And the un-democratic Electoral College.
And the un-democratic Senate.
And the inapplicable "due process" Section 1 of the 14th Amendment (though the third section "automatically disqualify the insurrectionists" part is fine)
Shouldn't it be "privileges and immunities"? Due process clause gets used all the time.
And the right to a speedy trial if you were anywhere near 1/6.
And even if you just vocalized support, but not even remotely near.
The Meeting of the Right Rightist Minds will now come to Odor!
Years ago by now, Our Dear Leader announced to us, that He may commit murder in broad daylight, and we shall still support Him! So He Has Commanded, and So Must Shit be Done!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/24/donald-trump-says-he-could-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters
And now, oh ye Faithful of the Republican Church, Shit Has Become Known Unto us, that Shit is also in His Power and Privilege Ass Well, to murder the USA Constitution in broad daylight. Thus He Has Spoken, and Thus Must Shit Be Done! Thou shalt Render Unto Trump, and simply REND the USA Constitution, and wipe thine wise asses with shit! Do NOT render unto some moldering old scrap of bathroom tissue! Lest we be called fools, or worse!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Proud Boys, STAND with TRUMP, and stand by! And if ye don’t agree 110%, then we don’t need you polluting our world, because all who disagree with us in ANY way are LEFTISTS!!!
There, I think that’s a wrap! I’ve covered shit ALL! You can take the rest of the day off now.
(You’re welcome!)
Not even remotely your best material, NaziSqrlsy. F-.
Get a life, mor on.
After not logging in for a year-and-a-half, GFY, jackass. Or are you a commie? It's socialism, all the way down.
Hey David KKK...
Twat is YOUR excuse for the authoritarianism, totalitarianism, and TOTAL lack of respect for democratic norms, of The TrumptatorShit?
The Fourth Amendment has entered the chat.
Whiny and stupid. It's asinine to follow the rules and laws that were set up by a few dozen slaveholders nearly 300 years ago. Times change, progress is made, but apparently not for CE.
Sock, or sent here from some progressive org?
No, simply a steaming pile of ignorant lefty shit. Fuck off and die, et; make your family proud and the world a more intelligent place.
Are online degree courses such as (BA, BCOM, BBA, BCA, BSc IT, BSc CS, MA, MCOM, MBA, MCA, MSc IT & MSc CS) eligible for One Year Online Degree Course https://onlinedegreecourses.co/
It’s the supreme law of the US. If you don’t like it, use the amendment process to change. Or get the fuck out.
Really, it’s best you just leave now. Your kind aren’t compatible with the rule of law in a constitutional republic.
Wanna bet? We have guns too.
Wanna bet? We have guns too.
Sanity. Ethics. Accountability.
Biden says we'll need F15s and nukes.
Going with precedent, bother Biden enough and he will just give you the weaponry when he withdraws in humiliation.
This is a valid point. Any situation where christianofascists and anarcocommies get to initiate deadly force against each other is a win-win for both altruist gangs, but also for the gene pool and non-altruist outside parties. Such a thing was explained in All Quiet on the Western Front... the book... the rectangular thing with the flippy pages, translated.
Oh, so it's okay for your kind, but nobody else? The truth comes out.
Worth noting that CE's point is that Democrats don't respect the Constitution.
And here you are agreeing 100%.
The US Constitution is the shortest in the New World. There is a negative correlation between constitutional wordiness and per-capita GNP. Interestingly, Argentina has the second-tersest constitution, but LACKED a libertarian party at the time I read the platforms and made the chart. The hasty implantation of a cross-dressing anarco-fascist party of mystical girl-bulliers hardly qualifies. (https://bit.ly/3U8CeEF)
What do you think the odds are that ed here thinks that the 3/5ths compromise is evidence of old colonial white men not considering slaves to be full actual people?
I'm guessing it's north of 90%.
Principles are timeless, lefty moron.
Is it free if it does damage?
Hey, dumbass, ever hear the old playground chant, "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"? Same thing here, idiot.
Leftists' insane ideology has damaged me. When are they going to jail?
D-
They’re not sending their best.
Is it free if it does damage?
More on the theme of how much you don't like the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?
Logic. Reason. Terms none of you whiney fools want to embrace. Back to your solitary life in front of your computers, raging at how liberalism has ruined everything! Talk about snowflakes.
Logic. Reason. Terms none of you whiney fools want to embrace.
Show me where on this page you have presented a logical argument.
I wager you wouldn't know a syllogism if it mugged you.
Neither is welcome in the tiny mind of Square=Circle
"Logic. Reason..."
I'm sure you've heard and read those words, but the meanings seem a complete mystery to you, asshole.
Another Grey Box...
Do you support the prosecution of ANYBODY who claimed Michael Brown said "Hands Up, Don't Shoot"? That was a lie and caused massive damage, right?
It isn't free if it initiates coercion. Freedom is the absence of exactly that. Force is mass x acceleration, as in bullets by guncotton gases, which do Work on meat. Work has the same units as energy. Power is the time derivative of the capacity to do work in physics. But in ethics and politics power is the time derivative of the capacity for deadly force. The more powerful the political thing, the more people it can kill per unit of time. Every law is a demand that goons with guns kill the disobedient. For this reason libertarians seek to repeal existing laws rather than enact additional ones. Is any of this hard to follow or difficult to grasp?
"So much for free speech."
You mean like our RIGHT to LIE in court?
Sidney Powell...
https://reason.com/2022/02/11/sidney-powell-disowns-her-kraken-saying-she-is-not-responsible-for-her-phony-story-of-a-stolen-election/ (Yet another Powell article)
https://reason.com/2021/03/23/sidney-powell-says-shes-not-guilty-of-defamation-because-no-reasonable-person-would-have-believed-her-outlandish-election-conspiracy-theory/
Sidney Powell Says She’s Not Guilty of Defamation Because ‘No Reasonable Person’ Would Have Believed Her ‘Outlandish’ Election Conspiracy Theory
Which particular lies are you wanting to hear and believe today, hyper-partisan Wonder Child?
WHY do you evil people love it SOOOOO much when lawyers LIE in court? Is it the lawyers that You love, the lies, or both?
Conspiracy theories or cunt-spermacy theories; which appeal to ye the MOISTEST?!?!? And twat does Spermy Daniels say about tit all? Are Ye Perfectly titillated yet?
Spermy Daniels for Der TrumpfenFarter-Fuhrer’s new VEEP!!! Government Almighty KNOWS that The TrumptatorShit will need MANY-MANY (affordable) criminal defense lawyers, and Spermy Daniels can attract MANY “Pro Boner” lawyers!!!
Enlightened Ones, such ass Light-Bearer Mammary-Farter-Fuhrer and buddy-olas, says (in contravention of THOUSANDS of years of traditional practice) says that LYING IN COURT (AKA perjury) should be CELEBRATED instead of punished!
https://reason.com/2023/10/20/how-sidney-powells-plea-deal-could-hurt-trump-in-the-georgia-racketeering-case/
ALL HAIL Sidney and LIES IN COURT!!!!
This travesty of an op-ed by Sullum is not about free speech - it's about due process. He gives a lengthy list of all the things he doesn't like about Trump and what the rest of the government SHOULD have done while drawing all the wrong conclusions from all the egregiously spun factoids listed. America lost any semblance of due process - either on the individual level with prosecutorial abuse; or in the aggregate with virtual immunity for government officials, the deep state and overwhelmingly entrenched bureaucratic rule - and now weaponized and even fraudulent "justice" departments. I don't care how nasty you think Trump is personally or how bad he performed as President of the United States (for the record I would agree with that assessment) but due process DEMANDS that the laws should not be unconstitutionally broad or vague, that the prosecutors bring charges with equal protection under the law, and that search and arrest warrants be applied for only with factual evidence of probable cause. None of those factors can be found here and we may safely assume that Trump has been a target of political abuse of the legal machinery.
The Colorado ruling addresses due process and the "vagueness" of the law. It's a good read.
It "addresses due process" by removing someone's liberty to run for office, based on one person's opinion of his guilt, for a crime he was never even indicted for, let alone convicted?
Yeah, I remember when libertarians at least paid lip service to the concept.
It would be great to read a blog that provides libertarian perspectives. Can you recommend one?
Two ackshully: https://libertrans.blogspot.com/ is mainly financial and legal explanations of how looter prohibitionism causes all Panics, Crashes, Depressions and Wars
https://libertariantranslator.wordpress.com/ covers some of this but uses math and graphs to show how wasting a vote on looters destroys freedom but voting for a genuine Libertarian candidate like Oliver LEVERAGES the law-changing clout of every LP vote, starting with our original 1972 platform. We win every election we spoil.
Inb4 Sarc
Haven’t seen him. Maybe his passed out in an alley behind a bar lying in a puddle of his own vomit. Also having pissed himself.
Probably changed identity since a lot of folks grey boxed him.
Doesn't matter. I've mooted over a hundred girl-bullying MAGAt infiltrators and cheap narcs. So long as creeps use the same email they can morph from DONSRENTBOY to GRRLHATR and stay banned--and unmissed. Zerosledge is a likelier place for clinic-shooters and geezer-hammering night-crawlers to exchange ordure and snigger at each others' insinuations. There may be vaporous jerk-circles of MAGAt and Trumpanzee infiltrators visible only to each other--appalling, perhaps, to the occasional innocent visitor.
Trump clone and Reason/Cato heart throb Milei visits Davos, ostensibly to talk some sense into them, but in reality to begin the assimilation process…
https://nypost.com/2024/01/18/opinion/argentinian-prez-javier-milei-scolds-davos-elites-with-common-sense/
So Milei’s speech this week was something like a call back to the organization’s supposed roots. On Wednesday, he warned the WEF that “The Western world is in danger.” And while the other gods of Davos have spent years saying the same thing, they have come to very different diagnoses. While the gods of Davos have spent recent years warning against climate change and “populism,” Milei has a different prognosis. He declared that the West is in danger “because those who are supposed to have to defend the values of the West are co-opted by a vision of the world that inexorably leads to socialism, and thereby to poverty.” The world should instead embrace “free enterprise capitalism” to bring an end to world poverty.
...and this really bothers you. C'mon, Klaus, we know it's you.
No, it was a good speech.
I just wonder why Reason is all onboard with Milei, but repulsed by Trump.
One could not tell that from the way your post began.
“…..to bring an end to world poverty.”
Not possible. Don’t care. Shouldn’t even be in the “wishful thinking” category, much less some kind of policy goal.
I wouldn't go as far as not caring, but such is better taken care of privately.
Trump was the President on Jan 6 was he insurrecting against himself? The riot itself was obviously a setup with plenty of video showing unidentified men taking down signs and barricades and the cops firing rubber bullets and flash bangs into the crowd. I won't even go into Ray Epps being slapped on the wrist.
The riot was a setup? By whom? Pelosi? Shifty Schiff? Biden? SMH
"Setup" may be a strong word, but if the Democrats were actively hoping for some sort of incident that they could characterize as an insurrection, it's hard to imagine what they would have done differently.
Forgot your meds today.
We know you did.
Forgot your meds today.
Thank you for your insights, suddenly-present-commenter-no-one’s-ever-seen-before-who’s-here-to-call-everyone-Trumpists.
Jesus that was dumb. And whiny. Snoflakey even.
Hey Pedo Jeffy.
Look in the mirror.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of lefty shit.
Sevo's favorite go-to. Not that I'm opposed.
Jesus that was dumb. And whiny. Snoflakey even.
Sanity. Ethics. Accountability.
Childish. Insecure. Small.
The paranoid in me wonders how much was set up.
Normally not a conspiracy guy, but they used "insurrection" right from the get go, everywhere, when it was a riot or a protest out of hand or whatever. And the things they're throwing against Trump for "insurrection" specifically use that word.
It's like they had chosen the term with possible strategies in mind.
Don't get me wrong, politicians are great opportunists and the Democrats in congress during Trump's term used every organic (as well as non-organic) development to try and destroy the Republicans, but they've stopped hiding the fact that they feed talking points to the press and multiple media outlets repeat them verbatim. The brazenness of politics the last decade really makes you cynical.
Not how the pro terrorist protestors at the White House calling for the death of Israel aren't being called rioters or insurectionists even though they are being nastier than the Jan 6th protestors. Seems as long as you don't support Trump you can burn cities, declare autonomous zones, beat old men with bike locks, and scream for the death of Jews.
I wonder how many American Jews will figure out that a vote for democrats is a vote for Holocaust 2.0?
I've always wondered how the Democrats have held the Jews and the Catholics for so long. You'd think the fact that one of those groups votes Democrat would inspire the other to vote Republican out of spite.
Both Catholics and Jews have social beliefs that are more congruent with old school democrat positions (not the anti-Christian, pro-abort stuff, but the social responsibility stuff).
The right is currently undergoing a war over the social responsibility bit. Looks a bit different than the left vision has over the years, but the necessity for some variety of it is finding it’s way into the business/economics/stock holder value only R party.
politicians are great opportunists
^^^^
This I believe much more readily than I believe that these people can all get on the same page and organize such a thing with anything like the competence that would be required.
The most conspiratorial thing that seems at all likely to me is that there was word that there might be some kind of restless/potentially violent gathering and they deliberately skimped on security and maybe even had some folks engage in active instigation in the hopes that somebody in the crowd would do something stupid. That the media would march in lockstep with whatever the Party-messaging-of-the-moment would be could be taken for granted.
It’s not in the Democrats' playbook to “destroy the Republicans.” Ostensibly what they really want to achieve in Congress is what they have achieved in deeply blue states and cities: i.e. an unassailable “lock” on the government apparatus. A two-party system NEEDs a “loyal opposition” to blame for your own failures. While I would not go so far as to say that it’s all a conspiracy in which the D’s and R’s meet for drinks at the country club after bludgeoning each other verbally and procedurally in Committee to arrange the next day’s mock battles, the effect is virtually identical to what it would be if it were all a show.
The feds planted the pipe bombs
Should be noted that Kamala was at the DNC around the time the pipe bombs were found.
And she has not once commented on how she "nearly died".
Seems....odd.
You think Democrats setup the 1/6 riot? Please tell me you are kidding.
It's fucking obvious.
Well, since the FBI had so many operatives in the crowd they lost count...
Probably all of the above. Pelosi surely we invoked. She refused national guard troops offered by Trump, and requests for more security from the Capitol Chief of Police.
Yes, Pelosi denyed trumps request for mor security, hired her daughter to bring a film crew, and had her staff lie under oath
She's on that video, by her daughter, saying she was "waiting for them to trespass on Capitol grounds", the exact charge they are throwing as most of the imprisoned political prisoners.
This was done by the deep state of banana America.
Let’s ask the capital police releasing and fist bumping one of the instigators?
I find it funny that people who ascribe all manner of coded dog whistles and secret wink wink messaging to Trump and his supporters think that the Democrats and the Establishmnet Republicans are above board and play perfectly fair with no lines of secret communications. For them, when Trump makes a hand gesture it secretly means entire paragraphs of instructions while they insist on seeing pages of forms filed in triplicate to even suspect the opposition of something crooked.
Come up with a standard and try sticking to it.
Which one? Trumpboy catamite Jair Bolsonaro made it to Caudillo de Deus on Orange Hitler's coattails. The guy enabled girl-bulliers and illiterate prohibitionists to the detriment of the economy. One term of superstitious ignorance convinced the voters, same as US voters, to ditch the dummy. His butthurt baboons aped the Trumpanzees by rioting, looting and smashing property at the nation's capital. Look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q4xt_HwXrg
NOW I remember why I blocked you. Blocked.
You forgot the FBI.
This is the argument that really needs to be made for this and for the criminal charges relating to Jan 6. The charges that Trump engaged in insurrection or incited anything are ridiculous. Creating a general atmosphere of doubt about the election isn't incitement. It's free speech. People are responsible for their own behavior. I've seen nothing to indicate that Trump planned or encouraged any violence. In fact he explicitly said to be peaceful.
Trumpanzee not see, Trumpanzee not dooo...
Did Hank Phillips transition?
Hey Hank, are you wearing a dress? Should probably update your pic on your website.
What are Hank's preferred pronouns?
I'm guessing "high/retarded"?
If you think I'm any kind of Trump enthusiast, you aren't paying much attention.
Hank, like many others, fell into the collectivist well when Trump got elected. Anything that doesn’t acknowledge Trump as the worst (sorry Nikki) and toe the lion that he caused the riots makes you a Trump cultist, Trumpanzee, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
If that's the best reply you can manage you get the grey box treatment. Adios.
Apparently the Colorado Supreme Court didn't think the charges were ridiculous. Is violence even necessary for actions to qualify as an insurrection? The important point, and the Colorado ruling made this clear, was that the goal of the rally was to stop the official proceeding taking place in Congress. The protesters succeeded, didn't they? Could this have happened without Trump calling them to come to DC? I think the Trump defenders are on very shaky ground.
So, petitioning your government for redress of grievances is now illegal? Maybe without the appropriate forms and approval by that same government, right? Your argument is hollow and pathetic. Madison and Jefferson would be long-forgotten by now had they listened to you.
Anything done by a non democrat that the democrats don’t like is now illegal.
Redress of grievances includes violence? Destruction of property? Interrupting Congress? Threatening public officials? Attacking police officers? I think not. Our form of government is such that grievances can be addressed without resorting to violence.
Trump neither destroyed property nor interrupted Congress nor threatened public officials nor attacked police officers. He perhaps encouraged his supporters to interrupt Congress. It's not the first time a political group has interrupted Congress during an official proceeding, but it is the first time the protestors were rounded up, held without bail for a year, and then faced trial.
Christian Nationalist Prohibitionists in Brazil like apes attacked Congress, broke windows and furniture, stole what they could, defaced paintings and smashed artwork, and even defecated (made a doo doo) on Supreme Court furniture after Jair Bolsonaro got tossed out on his ass by voters just like his hero Donnie. Bolsonaro took the precaution of being outside national borders when his mystical minions struck. Fatass Donnie was on the scene, pretending--like Hitler--the violence was "forced on" his fat ass. Sad.
Hank, please translate that from Retard to English.
He’s just a dirty hippie suffering from dementia. Like a more arcane Hihn.
There are protests whose intent is to stop official proceedings of congress all the time. They succeeded in delaying it for a few hours.
Sure, Trump encouraged the situation. But encouraging people to come protest is absolutely protected by the first amendment. Helping to create a situation where bad things could happen is not incitement.
Apparently the Colorado Supreme Court didn’t think the charges were ridiculous.
And when the US Supreme Court overrules them, you're going to accept that, right? And not dismiss the SCOTUS as politically partisan?
The protesters succeeded, didn’t they?
Clearly, as evidenced by the fact that Trump is still president.
It's going to be really funny when the decision comes back 9-0 and the left pretends it was because the court was stacked.
Unfortunately everything indicates that the left judges will use no standard outside of their political allegiances here as per usual.
^This^
Although Roberts might negociate surrender on some other issue important to progressives in order to get unanimity on an issue that is already would otherwise be prob a 6-3 decision. This way we get the same result on this issue BUT the left still gets a bone thrown their way.
There's one "wise" Justice who will undoubtedly see through this racist attempt to keep Trump on the ballot and vote for Colorado.
Sure I will accept what the SCOTUS decides. They have the final word. I don't think they are, as a group, partisan. As for the success of the crowd, and the point of the Stop the Steal initiative, yes, they succeeded in stopping the process. But Congress regrouped and finished it up in the early morning hours. A failed coup attempt. Most things Trump tried were failures so no surprise there.
I don’t think they are, as a group, partisan.
Care to list the one's who you don't think are partisan and the one's you think are partisan? I can only assume this is what you meant, since otherwise the 'as a group' disclaimer would appear to be utterly extraneous.
A coup attempt, seriously? With no weapons? No high ranking military officers involved? Not troops under Trump's command surrounding the Capitol?
Is violence even necessary for actions to qualify as an insurrection?
So confirming your question here...
Pushint a false russia collusion narrative, working with Comey and unelected officials to push a special prosecutor... multiple false impeachments... calling a general to demand they ignore the president to warn china... massive media campaigns if lies... censorship of the truth...
Man that is a lot of dem insurrection based on your question.
Very great point!
??? Trump said the false Russian collusion charge was the political crime of the century. Durham was going to expose all of it. What happened there? Nothing. Mueller found some shit and it's in his report. Another good read.
The goal if the protesters that set the Portland courthouse on fire, or burned down the Minneapolis 3rd pct police station, or who constantly interrupted the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings all had the goal to stop official proceedings. So any Democrat that encouraged them should be barred from office for insurrection?
That’s (D)ifferent.
Slickrick is not very bright.
It votes democrat, so definitely not bright.
Maybe not but bright enough to stick to the subject at hand. Trump defenders are the masters of deflection and BS.
"I like double standards when they go my way".
Don't forget the protestors in Seattle who literally declared independence from the US and said they would murder any police or government officials who tried to enter the area.
If that's not insurrection, I'm not sure I understand our working definition of what is.
A good point since that is quite literally the definition of insurrection. One wonders how many of those 'protestors' are now in federal prison.
They set fire to a FEDERAL court house in Portland. It was basically Fort Sumter all over again. And then occupied and declared "autonomous zones" in Portland and Seattle, declaring them outside the authority of the states or the nation, and going so far as to block government safety personnel from entering to rescue injured people or arrest criminals, leading to at least one death. All of that is basically the definition of insurrection.
Protesting on public property for election integrity, and a delay in the finalization of the vote clearly is not.
So you can't see politics as usual when they are right in front of your face? You seem to have an absolute trust of Democrats in power. Why is that?
Letters-turning (and eyes-turning) Vanna White had the POWER to select the WINNERS of "Wheel of Fortune"! Like a WUSS, she never exercised Her Rights!!! She'll go down in infamy with VEEP Pence!
“Hang Mike Pence”, Trump agrees! https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/28/jan-6-hearing-trump-thought-pence-deserved-chants-to-hang-him-aide-says.html
Trump chief of staff said the president thought Pence ‘deserves’ chants of ‘hang Mike Pence’ on Jan. 6, ex-aide testifies
SQRLSY says conservatives will label all of this as “hearsay”… We need to believe Sidney Powell instead!
Is violence even necessary for actions to qualify as an insurrection?
Hear hear, oh so true!! Given that, running for office as a Democrat should be considered an act of insurrection, given that Democrats oppose pretty much everything the Founding Fathers enshrined in the Constitution. And since the 14th Amendment is self enforcing, it would automatically disqualify anyone running for office as a Democrat, but also any current Democrat in office who won an election as a Democrat to get there.
Surely you must agree that all we have to do is declare any action an act of insurrection, right?
You're a complete idiot.
What if the election count really was rigged though? And supporters of the candidate who lost were protesting on public land to demand an accurate count and audit before the results were finalized? And then that candidate was barred from running for office the next time, based on the say-so of one state official, with no trial. Wouldn't this strike you as something Russia or China or North Korea would try, and not a free country?
“The important point, and the Colorado ruling made this clear, was that the goal of the rally was to stop the official proceeding taking place in Congress. The protesters succeeded, didn’t they?”
No, they did not. The action in Congress was delayed, not stopped. Furthermore, that the Colorado SC has the authority to make a determination of criminal guilt on a federal crime is dubious at best.
He operates like a mafia Don. Suggestions, behind the scenes, off the record threats, promises and deals. Doesn't make him less guilty, just harder to prosecute. He is guilty of doing NOTHING about it, which in itself lends credibility to the charges. If, as acting President at the time, he felt there was nothing wrong with armed and violent trespassers taking over the government then he was derelict and guilty by inaction. It was his job to act and he did not.
Lmao. You’re a funny motherfucker.
True. Although rues also a stupid piece of shit. I’ll bet his act is just the tits over at WaPo.
Thanks. I'll be here all week.
Good, then we can ridicule your ass and hopefully you'll be gone at the end of that week.
Not as thin skinned as the likes of you. Also, you have to respect someone to care about what they say.
What was he supposed to have done? Run half a mile down the Mall and barricade the doors?
I'm pretty sure that it was the capitol police's job, not the President's to protect the capitol against rioters, and they failed. The problem was poor security and planning as much as anything.
I really hope you are never on a jury. You'd be ready to declare a guy guilty before the trial starts and stuck to the guilty verdict even if someone other than the defendant stood up in court and confessed to the crime and handed over video footage of himself committing the crime.
ActBlue is not sending their best here.
I don't know - have you ever seen better?
Michael Ejected-it's-Brains refutes ALL things by dripping slimy vague insults!!!
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
I never like assuming the morons defending the opposition are paid by some organization. It's too easy to accuse and impossible to disprove. I have been told on other sites that I am on the payrolls of everyone from AIPAC to... hmmm... some group starting with Z... um... fuck it. You get the point.
It's an oversimplified dismissal no matter where it is tossed and odds are not true. Now on Facebook or X I'd believe it more. Here? Not worth the money.
he felt there was nothing wrong with armed and violent trespassers taking over the government
Wait - when did armed and violent trespassers take over the government? Are they still in charge?
Hitler did NOT manage to subjugate the entire world... Therefor, he should be forgiven! No harm, no foul! He meant well, after all!
Hitler did NOT manage to subjugate the entire world
But he did commit clear crimes that resulted in the deaths of millions.
Are you really making this comparison?
Germans let Hitler do it. In the USA, most of Trump's "jokes" (actually trial balloons) got shot down. That's the difference, right there. USA's democracy has deeper roots, is all.
Here is an honest comparison of the roots in common:
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump's Big Lie and Hitler's: Is this how America's slide into totalitarianism begins?
The above is mostly strictly factual, with very little editorializing. When I post it, the FACTS never get refuted… I only get called names. But what do you expect from morally, ethically, spiritually, and intellectually bankrupt Trumpturds?
Totalitarians want to turn GOP into GOD (Grand Old Dicktatorshit).
There’s a saying that stupid should hurt. It’s quite obvious that your current level of pain is unbearable.
You resent the hell out of the fact that many other people are flat-out, better, more honest people than you are, right? More “live and let live”, and WAAAY less authoritarian?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-love-and-war/201706/why-some-people-resent-do-gooders
From the conclusion to the above…
“These findings suggest that we don’t need to downplay personal triumphs to avoid negative social consequences, as long as we make it clear that we don’t look down on others as a result.”
SQRLSY back here now… So, I do NOT want you to feel BAD about YOU being an authoritarian asshole, and me NOT being one! PLEASE feel GOOD about you being an evil, lying asshole! You do NOT need to push me (or other REAL lovers of personal liberty) down, so that you can feel better about being an asshole! EVERYONE ADORES you for being that asshole that you are, because, well, because you are YOU! FEEL that self-esteem, now!
Not knowing who you're responding to --- good money says SQRSLY but Rev Kirkland would also fit --- it is nice to remember that the Left went from "Let's punch Nazis" to "The Holocaust really was not THAT bad" in just a few years.
Good point. I don't recall who did the skit but have you seen the skit where the leftist and the skinhead are agreeing on just about everything? Very funny.
I believe you're thinking of the Ryan Long skit where the woke guy and his racist boyfriend agree on everything.
https://youtu.be/Ev373c7wSRg?si=H5FUwVWeKaBPzLig
Hadn't seen that, and wow that's hilarious.
Yes! That's it. My son showed it to me and I about died laughing.
The remedy for all of those things is to vote the ass out of office. He is out of office. Get over it!
One question that I have repeatedly asked about these condemnations of Trump questioning the election is this.
If Lex Luthor won the election and the next day bragged that we were all fools and he completely cheated, would your proposed restrictions allow us to remove him?
Most of the time, not only would their proposals not allow anyone to stop Luthor, but would criminalize even publicizing that it was a fraud.
Lex Luthor is a fictional charachter. Like me. He is a fixture in comics with that big blue boy scout. Like me.
What restrictions? The ones that say that Lex Luthor cannot be charged with the crime of violating a law that no one can legally define; without any factual evidence that Lex violated that law; while ignoring the same behavior by another elected official claimed by a different political party, or whose skin was a darker shade, or who was born with two X chromosomes instead of an X and a Y? Or the ones that allow you to vote Lex back out of office or that allow Congress to impeach and remove Lex from the White House?
Imagine thinking youre a libertarian after writing this:
That section of the brief is highly misleading in some respects, minimizing the recklessness of Trump's pre-riot speech and his inexcusable dereliction of duty after the assault on the Capitol began.
March peacefully. Reckless. No agency to protestors. No instigation by Capitol officers. Ignore the now reported 200 assets from government in the crowd, many on film yelling to into the Capitol.
Don’t forget this gem: “his phrasing obscured the fact that his supporters’ behavior at that point was decidedly not peaceful”. Is that all (likely 100,000) supporters? Or just a couple of hundred, with a few instigators to stir the pot? TDS is alive and well at Reason.
It’s looking more and more that FBI had dozens of agents and CI’s on the ground at the Capitol when this went down.
See the Rep. Clay Higgins interview with Tucker Carlson. Higgins says there were as many as 200 feds there.
And it also appears from video that the so called pipe-bombs, which are suspiciously identical to FBI training pipe bombs, were planted by either Secret Service or Capitol police. When the FBI said they were discovered by a "passer-by", they failed to mention it was a Capitol Police officer. After the "discovery", the police waited several minutes before investigating or even cordoning off the area. They were so unconcerned they allowed a group of children to walk within yards of the "bombs" without any restrictions.
The FBI has video of the "suspect" at the scene using his cell phone. But while they can track down everyone else who was in DC that day by using cell-phone data, they can't discover the identify of this one person.
Also, when Capitol Police were asked how many firearms they confiscated on January 6th at the Capitol, they responded "zero". This was not an "insurrection". It was a protest that turned into a riot, mainly due to the couple of hundred undercover cops instigating violence. It was literally a "made for TV" drama which was directed partly by Nancy Pelosi's daughter.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/epochtv/the-real-story-of-jan-6-documentary-4596670?ea_src=frontpage&ea_med=premium-documentary-3
He's showing a lot of trust in big government and support for politics as usual to be any kind of anti authoritarian.
I haven't imagined that Sullum is a libertarian in a very long time.
As much as I detest Trump personally and his performance (literally) as President of the United States, he has been the ONLY personality to successfully shake up the entrenched political establishment in a way that we desperately needed to occur. I relish the chaos he has sown amongst the enemies of liberty – in both parties and the monolithic bureaucracy with its deep state festering within it – as the only possible path available to unraveling their lock on official power. “By any means necessary” seems to have taken an unforeseen and ironic twist in coming back to haunt the socialists!
He told them to go peacefully, and he also told them to fight like hell. Which message did he mean? Which message did the protesters hear? We know the answer from their actions. The protesters fought the police to get past the outer barricades, broke windows to get access, and fought police inside the Capitol. They heard the fight like hell message. Trump watch their actions on TV and let it continue for over three hours before he sent them home. Their actions were exactly what he intended.
One notable fact is that should an actual insurrection occur, there will no question or quibbling over definitions.
One such example that you could point to is CHAZ, but of course that was the far, far left that did that and it wasn't Washington D.C. so it's glossed over by the usual vocal fools.
The irony, to me, is that the left is obsessed with painting the right as a bunch of gun toting extremists just waiting to blow away the government and I'm honestly not sure how they can reconcile that with the fact that none of the J6 rioters were even armed.
This is cognitive dissonance on full unapologetic display.
In every case of Insurection in the history of the world the people insurrecting... the insurectioners? Insurectionists... that sounds right. The insurectionists were armed. Typically heavily. Sometimes only with pitchforks and torches. But still. ARMED.
Like the Army of Northern Virginia when it clashed with the Union Army. They didn't bring placards and silly masks. They brought cannons and rifles. They used military grade weapons against the legal forces of the United States. Lots of people DIED.
If the protestors took his message of fight they sure didn't show up ready for a fight. They showed up to demonstrate their frustration. Peacefully.
If Trump hadn't ginned up his supporters by constant false claims of fraud, he wouldn't be in this position in the first place.
Still, the attitude of some of the Trumpsuckers here seems to be that there was no insurrection and it was justified.
There was a demonstration/protest, like myriad others that occur in this country.
Trump didnt "gin up" anything . Did you read the text of his remarks that day? If you weren't told it was Trump you'd think it was a typical speech from a typical politician. There's nothing remotely "insurrectiony" or "inciting" about it. Only in the eyes of the true TDS victims.
But he’d been arguing for two months that the election was stolen!!!1!1!1!1!
Others have argued that police hunt down and gun down unarmed Black men.
But Woodchipper Guy doesn't remember those...
lol. "questioning election results" == "insurrection"? Is that really where you land?
Questioning election results is practically a national pasttime. .. for both parties.
Because they’re only relevant if you think the people who rioted have no fucking agency and were driven to violence because he wouldn’t stop bloviating about “Dey terk mah jerb”.
Of course they have agency, but I note that both conspiracy and incitement are crimes, and I also note that people can be susceptible to lies and propaganda, e.g., like believing that the 2020 election was stolen.
How about being susceptible to seeing, with our own eyes, THAT THE FUCKING ELECTION WAS STOLEN?
The list of evidence is long, and growing.
Way to our yourself as an authoritarian shrike. Even in 2019 Hillary was calling 2016 illegitimate. Democrats still claim 2000 and 2004 were stolen. During the BLM riots not only did democrats support the rioters but even advertised bail fund charities for them.
Essentially, all of the arguments boil down to this.
Trump promoted Badthink®™, and because siome people rioted on the basis of Badthink®™, that was an insurrection and Trump incited it.
Some may argue this applies to Patrice Cullors, Nikole Hannah-Jones, Charles M. Blow, and many others. After all, they chanted, "Hands Up, Don't Shoot". They claimed that the police habitually hunt down and gun down unarmed Black men. And some people rioted on this basis.
It would apply if this principle was enforced in an even-handed manner. But the same side that says that Trump was promoting Badthink®™ also believe that Cullors, Jones, and Blow were promoting Goodthink®™, and those who riioted based on this Goodthink®™ were not ewngaging in insurrection, but fighting White Supremacy®™
Essentially, all of the arguments boil down to this.
Nope. The argument boils down to Trump's eligibility under 14.3 not what others did in other contexts and who were not running for president before or since.
Clearly, your desire to deflect from the truth of it is due to your inability to address the substantive legal point.
If Trump hadn’t ginned up his supporters by constant false claims of fraud, he wouldn’t be in this position in the first place.
This was what you claimed.
That his claims of a stolen election somehow caused people to riot.
What does running for president have to do with 14.3? A ton of positions are listed there, but not the president. So you have complete ignorance of that clause.
Trump cannot be subject to the, Congressionally removed, disabilities outlined in Section 3 of the 14th amendment, for engaging in an insurrection.
Because THERE WAS NO INSURRECTION.
Anyone claiming there was, is in "the lowest order in a classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25."
Still not shrike, you lying POS. This has nothing to do with authoritarianism - thought given your authoritarian (deferential) personality wrt Trump, I wonder that you use it as an insult.
Hillary wasn't claiming fraud from the mountain tops and mounting lawsuit after unsuccessful lawsuit after the election and tweeting all hours of day and night and rallying supporters to her cause.
Hillary wasn’t claiming fraud from the mountain tops and mounting lawsuit after unsuccessful lawsuit after the election and tweeting all hours of day and night and rallying supporters to her cause.
Yes, she was.
https://reason.com/2023/05/16/for-6-5-million-durham-report-finds-fbi-didnt-have-solid-dirt-on-trump-and-russia/
That doesn't contradict what I said, despite your lie to the contrary.
Commissioning the Durham report is not the same thing as "claiming fraud from the mountain tops and mounting lawsuit after unsuccessful lawsuit after the election and tweeting all hours of day and night and rallying supporters to her cause."
Why do you even bother to lie when the lie is so transparent?
Ok, you've been asking for this for a long time. Grey Box time for you.
She simply had her friends in government seek to overturn the election through special elections and cheering on The Resistance to refuse to do Trump's orders. Also still not an insurrection which is what the article is about shrike.
Your initial claim was his discussion of false claims of fraud led to an insurrection. Democrats rioted off those same claims. Was that an insurrection?
You are pretty dumb shrike.
Yes, Shrike is pretty dumb.
He also fucks children.
Still not shrike, you Confederate-loving POS.
What made the insurrection is what the rioters were intending to do.
But as you approve, you don't call it an insurrection.
Whatever you say, shrike.
She was still claiming he was illegitimate and that she won in fucking October 2020, liar.
" claiming fraud from the mountain tops and mounting lawsuit after unsuccessful lawsuit after the election and tweeting all hours of day and night and rallying supporters to her cause." is not the same thing as a single whining voice, no lawsuits, no riling up her bases, etc.
Learn the fucking difference.
Why are all you pro-Confederates so incapable of appreciating the distinctions? You're like someone who argues that because A and B commi felonies they're the same, even if A's felony is mass murder and B's felony is technical stock fraud.
Both felonies take away your second amendment rights and your right to vote in 2/3 of the states.
Lol, you aren’t nearly so stupid to believe that the 4 years of her and the entire MSM (all the way up through Election Day) cries of “But Russia stole the election from me/her.” wasn’t about keeping the Democrat base well and truly frothing at the mouth and riled up.
“Why are all you pro-Confederates…”
There it is. Thanks for playing.
"Still not shrike, you lying POS..."
You should be honored to be mistaken for someone of more honesty and integrity, asshole.
Exactly. As I read the article I thought the chances of there being 1 or 2 intelligent responses was slim. The supply of morons defending Trump can't be overstated.
Thank you for your insights, suddenly-present-commenter-no-one's-ever-seen-before-who's-here-to-call-everyone-Trumpists.
He is one of the monthly act blue accounts that visit Sullum trump threads. Only time I see him. Might be Sullum in fact.
So another reason to ignore Sullum articles altogether.
I rarely post because the average commenter to Reason articles is a basement dwelling douchebag.
Orange-dick-suckers will NEVER stop sucking orange dick!
Der TrumpfenFuhrer ***IS*** responsible for agitating for democracy to be replaced by mobocracy!
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It really should immediately make us think of Krystallnacht. Hitler and the NAZIs set up for this by constantly blaming Jews for all things bad. Jew-haters will be Jew-haters, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Hitler was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump's Big Lie and Hitler's: Is this how America's slide into totalitarianism begins?
The above is mostly strictly factual, with very little editorializing. When I post it, the FACTS never get refuted… I only get called names. But what do you expect from morally, ethically, spiritually, and intellectually bankrupt Trumpturds?
Totalitarians want to turn GOP into GOD (Grand Old Dicktatorshit).
Congratulations on your 100th bloviation about how Trump is evil and his followers are stupid... or was it Trump is stupid and his followers are evil? Hard to tell the difference.
You have won a grey box! Yeah!
"If Trump hadn’t ginned up his supporters by constant false claims of fraud, he wouldn’t be in this position in the first place."
This is the crux of the matter isn't it? It's ultimately unprovable, at least as long as the systems of election/voting are run by those sorts sympathetic to the left's emotions.
I would assume it is provable to some degree. Of course there are several methods that can and seemingly were implemented where the evidence is destroyed or access was denied. It's certainly an uphill battle to even lean on individuals known to have been players in different voting schemes because the power structure is aligned with them. Even in the instances where the fraud is found and highlighted, the media denies it or refuses to report (as Sullum continues to do.) It creates a hell of an uphill battle where numerous pieces of evidence are produced but the public is lied to and the system protects its own fascistic power.
Surprising no one, gov’na shrike takes the authoritarian position.
There was no insurrection and it was justified. Suck on that.
They never did what you saw them do. That's the Republican Party's story and they're sticking to it. Any who doubt it are urinating on the Historical Jesus, scoffing at Jesus' resurrection of Lazarus--recorded in the 1927 movie both Ayn Rand and her betrothed appeared in--and treacherously betraying everything Dry Hope Herbert Hoover struggled to build as of his 1929 Inaugural Speech: "We are steadily building a new race..."
“We are steadily building a new race…”
The New Soviet Man will be TRUMPED by the Newly Re-engineered Trumpanzees!!!
(Sidney Powell is showing us The Way and The Truth!)
Yeah I ate acid in the 70s too. But seriously dude you're damaged. Get some help.
If Trump hadn’t ginned up his supporters by constant false claims of fraud, he wouldn’t be in this position in the first place.
Now do Russia-gate.
I mean every major leftist riot including the summer of love.
Now do OJ Simpson!
Butt, whatabout that them thar whatabouts? Whatabout Hillary? Whatabout OJ Simpson?
How many brain cells does it take to run a socio-political simulation on the following:
Judge and Jury: “Murderer, we find you guilty of murder! 20 years in the hoosegow for YOU! Now OFF with ye!”
Murderer: “But OJ Simpson got off for murder, why not me? We’re all equal, and need to be treated likewise-equal!”
Judge and Jury: “Oh, yes, sure, we forgot about that! You’re free to go! Have a good life, and try not to murder too many MORE people, please! Goodbye!”
Now WHERE does this line of thinking and acting lead to? Think REALLY-REALLY HARD now, please! What ABOUT OJ Simpson, now? Can we make progress towards peace & justice in this fashion?
(Ass for me, I think we should have PUT THE SQUEEZE on OJ!)
Now do OJ Simpson!
When did OJ lose an election and then blame fraud?
I'm just trying to get a handle on when that's a crime and when it's not.
I have briefly donned my tin-foil mind-reading hate-hat, and tuned in to the WHATABOUTISM channel, and, sad to say, this, below, is the best that I could RX, ass best ass I could parse shit...
I told ya so!!!!
The Sad Saga of the Stolen Erections
And lo, it came to pass, that Tim the Enchanter blew upon His Magic Flute, and led me to a secret cave (the Cave of Caerbannog), whereupon mystic runes carved into the very living rock foretold of a day to come.
This sad, sad day has now manifested itself, just as foretold. The Promised One had been delivered to us, and was to fertilize His Queen, Spermy-Stormy Daniels, in an amazing scene; a glaze of Vaseline. Their offspring were to be called Strumpets… Which is a concatenation of Stormy and Trump. They were to number in the millions… About 332 million; enough for all residents of the USA to be issued one Strumpet per each resident, to sit on his or her right shoulder, and make sure that each resident stayed WAAAY Righteous. Each Strumpet was to progressively exert more and more Righteousness Control over each resident, by covering them in Strumpet Vines.
Sad to say, the Bad Bider-Grunch stole Trumpsmas AND Trump’s Erections! The stolen erections prevented the birth of the 332 million Strumpets, in the world’s WORST mass murder (genocide) so far! Even Saint Babbitt could NOT save the Strumpets!
This is the Sad Tale of the Demise of the USA!
Setting aside the fact that your incoherent copy-pasta doesn’t respond in any way to what I said:
I think the distinction you are missing is that “whataboutism” is “hey, sure, my guy committed a crime, but look over there – that guy committed a crime, too, so my guy is okay.”
The question I’m asking is what the standards are by which Trump saying his loss is fraudulent is a crime when you don’t seem to think that HRC calling her loss fraudulent is a crime.
If it’s not a crime, it’s not a crime. If it is a crime, it is crime.
Can you clarify what the difference is that makes Trump clearly a criminal and HRC clearly not?
Trumpanzees went apeshit, and so "Trumpanzee" is a word. "Hillarypanzee" is NOT a word! Trumpanzee, About 32,300 results (0.26 seconds) . . Says The Google, Who Knows All Things!!! Hillarypanzee, About 5,970 results (0.46 seconds) with a space... Hillary panzee... The wisdom of the crowds HAS SPOKEN!!!
Twat do YOU have to put up against THIS, below?
READ the below and hang your tiny brainless, power-lusting shit-head in SHAME for always taking the side of Trumpanzees, power-luster-pig!
https://www.jpost.com/international/kill-him-with-his-own-gun-dc-cop-talks-about-the-riot-655709 also https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/28/michael-fanone-trump-gop-riots/
‘Kill him with his own gun’ – DC cop talks about Capitol riot
DC Police officer Michael Fanone: I had a choice to make: Use deadly force, which would likely result with the mob ending his life, or trying something else.
“Pro-law-and-order” Trumpturds take the side of trumpanzees going apeshit, making cops beg for their lives! For trying to defend democracy against mobocracy! Can you slime-wads sink ANY lower?!?!
Well, rather punish the lawbreakers, instead of having them grab your gun, so that they can "kill you with your own gun"!
What happened to the "back the blue" and "lawn odor" wings of "Team R" anyway?
PS, mob violence and mob property destruction are both always wrong... Except when MY Tribe does it! Think Boston Tea Party!
Me? Given my druthers, I'd rather have the thugs steal my TV and my expensive sneakers, than steal my democracy! My TV can be easily replaced! Democracy? Not so sure about THAT one!
Trumpanzees went apeshit, and so “Trumpanzee” is a word. “Hillarypanzee” is NOT a word!
Well, who could ever counter an airtight argument like that?
READ the below and hang your tiny brainless, power-lusting shit-head in SHAME for always taking the side of Trumpanzees, power-luster-pig!
lol. I can't stand Trump. I think he's a jackass. If I had a nickel for every time I've been accused of having TDS I'd be a very wealthy man.
That said, I don't find your links very interesting.
What, there is no such thing as the "wisdom of the masses"? Shall we throw out democracy, then? And replace it with what?
"The 2020 election was stolen" is Badthink®™.
"The 2016 election was stolen by Trump and the Russians®™" is Goodthink®™
Don’t fear the revolt!
(insurrection)!
All our times have come
Here, but now they’re gone
Seasons don’t fear the revolt
Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain
(We can be like they are)
Come on, baby
(Don’t fear the revolt)
Baby, take my hand
(Don’t fear the revolt)
We’ll be able to fly
Baby, I’m your man
La, la la, la la
La, la la, la la
Valentine is done
Here but now they’re gone
Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbs
Are together in eternity
(Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbitt)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel
Horst and Babbs both wanted to grab political power through violence, and got back, what they were dishing out. Karma is a bitch! Live by the sword, die by the sword!
Refute it, bitch!
Yawn. F- copypasta, NaziSqrlsy. Try harder next time.
What was justified? The non-insurrection?
The rioting and breaking of stuff absolutely was not justified. The protesting, which is all most people were doing, certainly was within their rights and as such needs no justification when we are talking about the law.
False claims of fraud.
You sound pretty certain of that. You don't have any little bit of concern that our elections can be swayed by some crooked operators?
If Trump hadn’t ginned up his supporters by constant false claims of fraud, he wouldn’t be in this position in the first place.
Please elaborate.
How did constant claims of fraud cause this?
Was it because it promoted Badthink®™ which caused people to riot.
It's all part of their self-delusion, that Trump supporters just don't have the brains to have seen what happened, before our very eyes, and only think the election was stolen, because he told us so.
When it is they that are sure the election was free, and fair, because the ones, who stole it, are telling them so, and they will defend that position to the point of imprisoning, or killing, anyone, who disagrees.
They sure as hell haven't seen any evidence of it being on the up-and-up, because every request for that has been denied.
What about all the true claims? Just because you spout parroted discredited bullshit denials doesn’t mean that massive election fraud and manipulation didn’t happen.
Here's this steaming pile of shit's take on the murder of an un-armed protester:
SRG2 12/23/23
“Then strode in St Ashli, clad in a gown of white samite and basking in celestial radiance, walking calmly and quietly through the halls of Congress as police ushered her through doors they held open for her, before being cruelly martyred for her beliefs by a Soros-backed special forces officer with a Barrett 0.50 rifle equipped with dum-dum bullets.”
Why not just load her in a gas chamber you slimy pile of Nazi shit?
While I cannot speak for the Trumpsuckers to whom you refer, I can point out that 1) it wasn’t an insurrection; and 2) it wasn’t justified. Was a protest at the Capitol justified? Only the protestors can answer that. Did a mostly peaceful protest turn into a riot? Yes. Was the riot triggered by: 1) something Donald Trump said; 2) professional government or partisan agitators, either Democrat or Republican, who infiltrated the crowd; or 3) all of the above? Maybe. Will we ever have justice impartially served by enforcing clearly defined reasonable laws? Nope … not ever … not even close.
Orange Hilter did exactly the same as his Christian National Socialist predecessor in Germany. After Herbert Hoover's 1931 Moratorium on Brains and Dope Limitation Convention, Hitler became the voice of patriotic Christian moderation. Even after the Blitzkreig, the War had been "forced on" Germany--innocent bystander and victim. The Surrender had been fake, the prohibitionist Versailles Treaty extorted, and Christian Germany's homes, jobs and families endangered. See Riefenstahl's 1933 "Triumph of Faith" Hitler movie. Besides, the 14th Amendment is pro-choice, hence ipso-facto treasonous by Revelation of God!
You forgot your meds today.
He forgets them every day.
It’s kinda sad really.
He’s pretty deranged, on top of his underlying retardation, at this point.
All of those who disagree with MEEEE are… Mentally ILL!!! YES, this! Good authoritarians KNOW this already!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union
All of the GOOD totalitarians KNOW that those who oppose totalitarianism are mentally ill, for sure!!!
There are some things meds can't compensate for.
This looks like one of them.
You capitalize like a German.
Multiple Trumps insisted the USA is NOT nor will ever be a [Na]tional So[zi]alist country. Oh wait; you know who is touting [Na]tional So[zi]alism for the USA????
- 100% Leftard self-projection.
You know what is just like when Hitler claimed ultimate power. The lefts witch-hunting Gestapo police tactics (censorship, prosecuting descent) and grasping to hold power over the Reichstag's fire (hut hum J6)
- another 100% Leftard self-projection.
That section of the brief is highly misleading in some respects, minimizing the recklessness of Trump's pre-riot speech and his inexcusable dereliction of duty after the assault on the Capitol began.
Fucking hell, I don't have the energy for this.
You mean, you don't have an intelligent rebuttal. You're welcome.
Another act blue account. You all have the same script even.
No we have the same message. Sanity. Ethics. Accountability. You fellate your cousins child and come here to talk about pedophelia in the government.
You fellate your cousins child and come here to talk about pedophelia in the government.
Sanity. Ethics. Accountability.
et doesn't have any and probably doesn't have a clue as to what those words mean.
He IS a steaming pile of imbecilic lefty shit,
Sorry the truth hurts you.
You may have lost your act blue job by admitting to it.
You’re welcome.
What is it you believe you have given?
You’re too stupid to grasp an intelligent rebuttal. You also sound like you might be Pedo Jeffy sock.
Are you a Pedo Jeffy sock? Doesn’t matter. Either way, you’re a subnormal, stunted p, soulless sack of rotting offal.
I find it funny that dereliction includes asking for more security but not to rejecting that request and instead hiring a film crew and committing sedition with one of the joint chiefs.
Since when is "recklessness" in one's speech pertinent to a legal brief that attempts to rebut being charged with violating a law that is unconstitutionally broad and vague? Since when is "dereliction of duty" the legal basis that needs rebutting in a Supreme Course brief over a charge that does not include "dereliction of duty" by the President of the United States? In short, how is a legal brief "misleading" by leaving out of the brief things that are not at issue in the Supreme Court appeal? It's embarrassing how ineffectively Sullum has to struggle in order to "gin up" even a hint of outrage at Trump's behavior. A Supreme Court brief is a summary of the arguments that the legal counsel thinks the Justices will find pertinent to the issues to be decided, not a wish list addressing everything you find offensive about a politician you despise.
The Kleptocracy and its laws forbid us from betting money that Long Dong, Palito, Mutterkreus Mom, Gorbasuch and KKKavanaugh will gleefully save Donnie's ass and scoop him into the Executive mansion like their bought predecessors did to install Rutherford Hayes. They quashed indictments on the Colfax Massacre and grinned as Tilden's win in both the popular and electoral vote was trashed on party lines by armed Comstockist thugs. Otherwise I'd lay odds and bet folding money on this outcome.
Lucidity isn't that hard Hank. Give it a try.
You forgot how "W" was "selected, not elected".
But, of course, you commies never claim elections were stolen, do you?
"A fool and his money soon part ways."
No more bozos for President. I think we can all agree. Mature, level headed adults need only apply.
OK, that means we need to vote out Biden this time around as he's a Bozo, and not in any way a mature, level-headed adult.
Fine with me. I'm not a democrat. Have no allegiance to that or any other party. There isn't any capable candidate currently running.
Strangely your demonstrated hatred of the US Constitution would definitely go with the treasonous Democrat.
I’m not a democrat. Have no allegiance to that or any other party.
Oh please. Your very first comment on this page is defending Democrats against a comment that they don't respect the Constitution, a comment in which you go on to assert that the Constitution shouldn't be respected.
Shit-bag is a *lying* D.
No, that's your narrow minded opinion of what I said. Once again, you're wrong and you'll always be wrong except when you're surrounded by troglodytes like TJJ2000 and Sevo.
Mature, level headed adults need only apply.
Do you have anyone in mind, specifically?
Jesus, Mahatma Gandhi, or Martin Luther King Jr.? Oh, wait, we (humans collectively) already KILLED them for being BETTER people than we are!!!
I for one can’t STAND the idea that a casual reader here of a libertarian news and commenting site would read the vapid and vile comments, and conclude, “Oh, so THAT’s what libertarians are all about!” No, it’s just that libertarians (and VERY few others) still believe in free speech, so the troglodytes come HERE, where their vile lies & vapid insults will NOT be taken down!
The intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent members of tribes have ALWAYS been feared and resented by those who are made to look relatively worse (often FAR worse), as compared to the advanced ones. Especially when the advanced ones denigrate tribalism. The advanced ones DARE to openly mock “MY Tribe’s lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD! Your tribe’s lies leading to violence against MY Tribe BAD! VERY bad!” And then that’s when the Jesus-killers, Mahatma Gandhi-killers, Martin Luther King Jr.-killers, etc., unsheath their long knives!
“Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
Then they crucified Jesus, 'cause Jesus made them look bad! ALSO because Jesus made them look bad FOR THEIR STUPID, HIDE-BOUND TRIBALISM! "The parable of the Good Samaritan" was VERY pointed, because the Samaritans were of the WRONG tribe, in the eyes of "Good Jews" of the day.
That was actually a question for Ed. I’ve heard your bit before, in fact.
Basically, NaziSqrlsy, anyone but you. Thanks for playing, and there is no consolation prize.
So then you agree that the democrat party must be dismantled?
Hey Punk Boogers!
Oh Great "Make Democrats Extinct" asshole, THANK YOU so very, VERY much, for advocating for a 1-party "R" state!
(I am old enough and wise enough by now to know that, sad to say, the Libertarian Party will never get more than a tiny slice of votes, 'cause libertarians aren't power-pigs or self-righteous enough, in a left-, right, up, or down, or even sideways, way, strongly enough, to appeal to the power-pigs and self-righteous ones that make up most of our society. Sad but true.)
So de facto, you and your fellow power pigs are advocating for a 1-party, "R"-party state... As you proudly display in your posting-name. You also want to make REAL libertarians extinct as well, don't you, power pig?
I'd thank you MUCH more sincerely, instead of sarcastically... If you could ONLY name me ONE single case of a 1-party state, where the 1-party nature of the state (party monopoly on politics) brought long-term peace and prosperity? You can NOT do that, can you, ignorant and evil power-luster?
Nobody reads your BS because you don't listen to anyone but yourself. I've told you time and time again the USA *IS* a one US Constitution based nation. Get the F'over it or move your *ss somewhere else.
Have you noticed that there are MORE than ONE political parties in the USA?
Have you noticed the USA is being torn apart because the US Constitution is being shredded by partisan politics? Or maybe you think the middle east has it all figured out ... after all they have competing ideologies too.
Der TrumpfenFarter-Fuhrer has already announced His support for the US Constitution being shredded!
Years ago by now, Our Dear Leader announced to us, that He may commit murder in broad daylight, and we shall still support Him! So He Has Commanded, and So Must Shit be Done!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/24/donald-trump-says-he-could-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters
And now, oh ye Faithful of the Republican Church, Shit Has Become Known Unto us, that Shit is also in His Power and Privilege Ass Well, to murder the USA Constitution in broad daylight. Thus He Has Spoken, and Thus Must Shit Be Done! Thou shalt Render Unto Trump, and simply REND the USA Constitution, and wipe thine wise asses with shit! Do NOT render unto some moldering old scrap of bathroom tissue! Lest we be called fools, or worse!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
CNN’s full-on BS … Proclaiming election fraud = Throwing away the Constitution.
The leftard narrative right there in action … “Democracy” (cheated or not) is the King and questioning the King is throwing away the Constitution. /s
The level of creative manipulation you leftards practice is impressive.
Humorously (but not funny at all) the more the left carries on with their ignorant bigotry about how so profoundly perfect and unquestionable their win claim in the 2020 election was the more guilt they award themselves. What kind of biased idiot thinks prosecuting skepticism and witch-hunting is due process?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-claims-he-did-not-swear-an-oath-to-support-the-constitution-as-president/vi-BB1gY2zq
Trump claims he did not swear an oath to ‘support’ the constitution as President
Trump Disloyal To America: Leading GOP Candidate Refuses To Sign Loyalty Oath For The Government He Would Be Sworn To Protect
Trump's campaign refused to sign a pledge in Illinois not to overthrow the government when registering for the primary ballot. The pledge requires candidates to promise not to advocate overthrowing the US or state governments by force. Trump signed in 2016 and 2020, and his campaign gave no reason for not signing now. A Biden campaign spokesman said Trump can't sign because he tried to overthrow the government on Jan 6. At Iowa rallies, Trump bizarrely claimed the Civil War could have been negotiated and praised China.
He's not wrong. The wording is to "preserve, defend and protect the Constitution". The fact MSN has to turn this into headline news says far more about them and their witch-hunting tactics than it does Trump.
Obviously you're nothing but a parrot of CNN and MSN. Maybe you should pick a new "someone else's" brain to parrot for a while.
DickTatorBot TJ2666 cunt-stantly WORSHITS the USA cunts-tits-tuition... Until it turns out that Trump DESPISES said USA cunts-tits-tuition... TWAT an UDDER surprise!!! Who'd a-thunk it?!?!
Principles, schminciples!!! Who needs 'em?!?!?
lol.. RU a bigotry-malfunctioning DNC A.I. bot?
You sure do sound like one. Call your technician.
DickTatorBot TJ2666 says...
Principles, schminciples!!!
Shit is cunt-firmed!!! TRUMP uber alles!!! WHO needs the USA cunts-tits-tuition anyway?!?!?
Your posts are the best. Classic line. "...libertarians aren't power-pigs..." LOL perfect.
Thanks Slickrick !!!
You are most welcome. Keep the posts coming please.
Lol. “MORE SQRLSY!!!!!” said no one, ever.
Until slick came along. What a retard.
The "should have been impeached" things you write at the start are debatable and I personally disagree based upon a few of the same reasons I think SCOTUS will overturn this. It's an opinion though. Did I like some of the things he said, Nope. Impeachable, also nope.
Later you hit on the specific case at hand quite well I think. You're correct on the "can of worms" and it wasn't this situation that introduced us to the term "mostly peaceful protest". I was talking to a friend who was there at the rally and the majority was a bit shocked by what the minority did. Meating Brandenburg standards would be very difficult here for those of us who have read Brandenburg and looked at subsequent rulings. It's a very high bar. I also think they fact that no prosecutor has tried to get him on insurrection is telling and there are reasons why that is the case. It seems unlikely to me that the section in question was written to take something out of the hands of voters in which no charge even exists.
Depending on the SCOTUS ruling, all of the J6 martyrs could go free. And then the lawsuits begin.
He asked for Capital Police and was shut down on January 6th. I think that enough said to stop the whole argument.
What I find particularly funny is how according to these dem defenders claim Trump and his supporters communicate in a secret language of hand gestures, coded dog whistles and winks/nods while they demand the production of forms filed in triplicate by Democrats to prove they did anything untoward. Don't have a copy of the documents showing the Capitol Police were ordered to work with the FBI to set up the protestors? Well it didn't happen. Clearly.
The case should be rejected as it is not ripe. The 14th Amendment does not apply to running for office; only to holding office. If elected, Congress can vote to allow him to serve. Thus, the issue whether Trump can hold the office again is not ripe for decision.
It is also not ripe to decide if the courts may play any role under the 14 Amendment. If Trump is elected, the sole decider could be Congress. If 2/3 of each house votes that he can serve, then he can serve. If less than 2/3rd vote that he can serve, then he cannot serve. The way the 14th Amendment is worded, Congress and not the courts decide whether he engaged in insurrection and they do that by voting whether he can serve, if elected.
If Nancy Pelosi had not sabotaged both impeachment trials in the Senate, Trump would not have been eligible to run, but the DEMs are too stupid to realize how Pelosi myopically screwed them to benefit her own career.
I don’t think Pelosi cares about anything but her own career. She would probably see everyone in her party burn to death if it served her ambitions.
Sorry, Rick, you must have read this in the discredited and lying pocket edition of the Constitution that Cato Institute has been handing out to Trumptards, deplorables, MAGAnates, and others who have no access whatsoever to what the real Constitution says: "FYTW."
Man. The democrats even have a true hidden version of the constitution. Do you have a link to your version?
Fuck you kid. I bought a copy of the Declaration of Independance, The Constitution and The Bill of Rights at Colonial Williamsburg before you were almost a trickle down your mother's chin. I've no idea what you think is the correct one.
He had me in the first part, but the big red fire truck was the final line “what the real Constitution says: “FYTW.””
I think it would be 2/3 needed to prevent Trump from serving. Not your version.
2/3 of Congress did act, six years after this ludicrous attempt to bring retribution against past secessionists, which included section 5, which stated that "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
It was in the Amnesty Act of 1872:
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each house concurring therein), that all political disabilities imposed by the third section of the fourteenth article of amendments of the Constitution of the United States are hereby removed from all persons whomsoever, except Senators and Representatives of the thirty-sixth and thirty-seventh Congresses, officers in the judicial, military, and naval service of the United States, heads of departments, and foreign ministers of the United States.
Is your argument that Congress, in passing the Amnesty Act of 1872 by a 2/3 majority, categorically nullified Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, based on the power granted to Congress in Section 5 of the 14th Amendment?
Interesting.
Your first point was addressed in the Colorado ruling. Your 2nd paragraph is reading things into the 14th that are not there. There is no mention of who decides who is an insurrectionist. It seems to me that if States are authorized to conduct elections as they see fit then that includes who is qualified to be on the ballot hence they decide.
With someone so obviously unfit to be president that exaggerating him made Hillary resort to the Hitler analogy and defending democracy by sending half the population to reeducation camps (there we could learn a lot from the Chinese), one question keeps nagging me.
Might it not be a bit easier to simply come up with a candidate that advocates something close to reasonable and does not ooze with signs of inability to handle the job? The Dems may have to compromise a bit on dismissing the border security issue and calling defining sex by chromosomes hate speech. But once playing moderate for a while, they can get back to it.
I have my qualms about that too. Just less so than the thought of Trump toying with big red nuclear buttons and considering calling half the world shithole countries effective diplomacy. Yet I suspect writing this will incur epithets like leftist totalitarian and deplorable Trumpists only curable through concentration camps or heavy antipsychotics, depending on where I post it. My only hope is a site outright calling itself reason.com. I scheduled electroshock therapy sessions as a backup.
Concern noted.
Land Ho, Landjo!!!
After a LOOOONG commercial break, sponsored by the re-erect Trump committee... Sanity will return to us VERY soon now... Der TrumpfenFarter-Fuhrer will soon, now, FINALLY do the right thing, and deliver a concession speech!!!
STOP THE PRESSES!!! INSERT HOTTEST NEWS FLASH!!! BREAKING NEWS!!!
Trump finally (Sort of) concedes the erections!!!!
My most-senior inside contact at the Shadow White House has surreptitiously slipped me an advance copy of the ex-lame-duck POTUS’s concession speech. Without further ado, here it is:
Friends, non-foreigner-type True Americans, and all who Make America Great Again, lend me your ears! I come to bury Biden, not to praise him. Biden and his minions stole the erections, and we must dishonor that! To Make America Great Again, we must invent the most fantastic, fabulous, YUUUGEST BIGNESS EVAH SEEN, in the ways of truly factually fictitious, but Spiritually and Metaphorically True, NEW Republican ballots! Because I have directed My Generals and My Scientists to research the current and past performance, efficacy, and patriotism of one-party states, versus multi-party states. As I have directed them to, My impartial, unbiased, data-driven council of My Generals and My Scientists have determined that yea verily, one-party states work better! Therefore, we must all strive for the Glorious Day, when America becomes a one-party state, under the One True Party, the Republican Party!
But for now, the courts have sided with Biden and his camel-toe, and Antifa, BLM, and all the Marxist terrorists. We must let the courts have it their way, with mayo on the side. I mean, with Mao Tse Tung on the side, but without the Proud Boys standing back and standing by. Thank you, Proud Boys, for having stood by me. Also, thank you, Steve Bannon, Vladimir Putin, Kim Ill Dung, and Pepe the Stolen-Intellectual-Property Frog. Pepe, watch out for Miss Piggy, she and her “pre-nuptial contracts” will clean your clock, just like Melania is set to clean mine soon! But I digest.
So we can’t disrepute what the nasty courts have said, or there might be civil war. Sad! The courts aren’t very American these days! And if you don’t like what I just said? Well, I’m sorry that you feel that way!
So congratulations to Biden for having stolen the erections! This is America, so we must properly honor the decisions of the courts, in a dishonorable way! Biden can come and live with us in the White House, per the wishes of the courts. He can pour our covfefe for us, for Steve Bannon, Pepe the Frog, and I, and Jill can make sandwiches for us. We promise to call him POTUS, and her, First Lady! POTUS of covfefe, and First Lady of sandwiches, that is! Hey Biden! Get yer butt over here! Pepe needs some covfefe!
That setup will get us by for a little while! Meanwhile, we can schedule the NEW run-off erections, this time without any fraudulent so-called “Democratic” votes being allowed, and we can do this RIGHT the next time!
Meanwhile, congratulations to Joe Stalin-Biden, on being erected POTUS of pouring covfefe for Pepe!
Fuck off and die, spastic asshole.
Show us how it's done, hypocrite!
"With someone so obviously unfit to be president that exaggerating him made Hillary resort to the Hitler analogy and defending democracy by sending half the population to reeducation camps (there we could learn a lot from the Chinese), one question keeps nagging me..."
One nags me too; how is it that an abysmally stupid pile of shit like you can find his way to a keyboard.
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled pile of shit.
It appears you've already had a lobotomy so I doubt electroshock therapy would be effective.
Odd how few new wars popped up between 1/17 and 1/21 as opposed to the deluge of them since then.
DIPLOMACY WORKS~!
Yet another poorly reasoned editorial by Sullum. He faults Trump not for engaging in insurrection or for failing to call for peaceful protest but for not doing it SOON enough for his tastes. What a blowhard.
Hi Clipton,
I am QUITE sure that YOU could do MUCH better! Your talents are a GOLDMINE and ye are just SITTING in it!!! Get off'n yer ass!!!
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
Can we just agree to euthanize SQRLSY? As an abomination against nature, it certainly has no right to exist.
You know what? We should all agree to meet somewhere in an open field and hash it out there.
You know what? We should all agree to meet somewhere in an open field and hash it out there.
Sanity. Ethics. Accountability.
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of lefty shit. Make your dog happy.
"Can we just agree to euthanize SQRLSY? As an abomination against nature, it certainly has no right to exist."
Hey Punk Boogers! HERE is your "fix"! Try shit, you might LIKE shit!!!
https://rentahitman.com/ ... If'n ye check 'em out & buy their service, ye will be... A Shitman hiring a hitman!!!
"Trump's Supreme Court Brief Rebuts the Claim That He 'Engaged in Insurrection'"
Since there was no "insurrection", it's pretty easy to see he wasn't engaged in one.
I'm not sure the left can see *reality* anymore.
The party of blinded sheep.
If you're going to define "insurrection" as only including successful insurrections, there is no point in prohibiting insurrections in the Constitution.
If you're going to define protesting the government for a redress of grievances and questioning election integrity "insurrection" then there is no point in having a Constitution at all or elections.
>Trump's Supreme Court Brief Rebuts the Claim That He 'Engaged in >Insurrection'
>He is asking the justices to reject the Colorado Supreme Court's >conclusion that he is disqualified from running for president.
I mean, well, *duh*.
1. He didn't engage in 'insurrection' - no one did.
2. If you're going to say they did - what about the pro-Hamas protestors that broke into Congress?
3. Even if he did do a crime - you're not going to admit that in court.
1. That depends on what the Supreme Court decides the phrase, "shall have engaged in insurrection", means.
2. What about them? That they should also be barred from holding office?
3. Did you really need a "3"?
>He is asking the justices to reject the Colorado Supreme Court's >conclusion that he is disqualified from running for president.
Or is he saying the COSC doesn't have the authority to make that determination just because of their feelz?
>spent ginning up his supporters' outrage with phony claims of a stolen election,
What about the years spent ginning up supporter's outrage over the election stolen by Bush and by Trump himself? Clinton *still* tells people it was 'Russian interference' that cost her the election.
>"We're going to have somebody in there that should not be in there," he said, "and our country will be destroyed, and we're not going to stand for that."
You want Biden arrested too? Because he's said the same thing.
I'm personally cool with Biden being arrested and imprisoned for selling influence as VP.
>nearly two hours after rioters overran the police perimeter around the Capitol and half an hour after they invaded the building itself. He told them to "remain peaceful" about 15 minutes later, and in both cases his phrasing obscured the fact that his supporters' behavior at that point was decidedly not peaceful.
Wow. You write this without having seen the released video of that day.
1. The protesters were peaceful.
2. The police opened the building up to them. There was no 'invasion'. Its right there on video.
The majority if the violence didn't occur until Capitol Police began using munitions and gas against the protestors.
And here's turd on the matter:
Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2
April.20.2021 at 10:47 pm
“Ashli Babbitt attacked the USA much like the 9/11 hijackers did.”
The rioters brought bear spray and began using it early – before they had overpowered police at the bike rack barricades.
The police didn't fire their guns until the rioters had overcome the first line of police and broke a window and were crawling through. They fired one "munition".
Except that they didn't do this.
Wow not a single word in that post is correct
Bear Spray? Are you sure you didn't read your talking points wrong. I suspect there was a lot of BEER spray flying around because why not make your protest into a tailgating kegger?
Yes, these people walk among us...
>This Court would never tolerate criminal prosecution of a speaker who tells his audience to 'fight like hell' and 'take back our country,' as language and rhetoric of this sort is common in political discourse."
Biden literally gave a speech, at night, backlit in red, where he said this.
Immediately flanked by military personnel.
Even if you're colorblind or your choice of color palette is a little off...
Remember that time Mike Teevee grabbed the controller from Wonka and ran in front of the giant camera, after having been told everything a television-obsessed kid like Mike ever wanted to hear BY Wonka thus bringing his excitement to an absolute fever pitch, and then when Mike was clearly in the act of doing something very, VERY stupid, Wonka's effort to stop him was a half-hearted flat-toned, "No stop don't."
Don't know why I just thought of that. But I'm pretty sure that by the end of the story, nobody was accusing Wonka of riling up a bunch of jerkasses who went nutso bananas in his chocolate factory resulting in very bad results for them.
J6 was the result of MAGA. Plain and simple. They were either there looking for trouble, or they were so stupid and easily led by the nose that they were "tricked" into it by guys in khaki pants and polo shirts and hats that said Definitely Not FBI with a wink emoji.
You can't hang that on Trump. You can't blame him just because his knuckle-dragging posse of mouth-breathing retards worship him as their godking. It's like blaming Taylor Swift if the swifties break into Kelce's house armed with engagement rings begging for him to pop the question.
I don't like him, I don't support him, but I'll absolutely defend him against this nonsense "insurrection" narrative. Because the problem wasn't Trump on J6. The problem was MAGA.
Leave him on the ballot. America clearly hasn't learn its lesson about mindless tribalism and civic duty yet, so give them what they want. Good and hard. Until they have nothing left if that's what it takes. School of Hard Knocks is a vicious taskmaster, but heck if we don't learn our lessons from it.
My only comment on your post is that the vast majority of people there didn’t engage in any violence more than yelling their anger/frustration.
Something about bad apples and barrels. And being known by the company you keep.
This is kind of the problem with MAGA in general (and, for that matter, their same-but-different counterpart on the left). They're so hellbent on "winning" (whatever that means) that they don't discriminate among their allies. Even when they should.
Let's go back to 2016 when Ted Cruz let Glenn Beck hitch his wagon to the train. Wince. Because now Cruz owns the wacko dumping his face into a bowl of cheetos. If you think that didn't hurt him, you're wrong.
The same goes for J6 MAGAs letting the Proud Bois and the Derpkeepers and any other cosplay revolutionary who - don't deny it, are fringe nutjobs out trying to instigate trouble - into their ranks. My favorite still, to this day, is their "we were there to lend aid and assist the police." Like anyone's going to believe their mayhem was simply "unsolicited help."
There's some gay dude that's always here who's constantly insisting that "real" homosexuals and the LGBT are two different things. Well hey yea, maybe that's true - but it ain't like the gays doing much to distance themselves from the furries and polys and pedos/groomers.
The J6 narrative would have been much different had it really been just smiling 'ol grandma wandering aimlessly through the halls. But it wasn't. It was guys in jackboots smashing windows, it was a buffalo conquering Botox Nance's office, it was clowns in red hats scaling the walls and charging the barriers.
The "vast majority" isn't what anyone saw or what anyone remembers. They remember the worst parts of MAGA, that should have never welcomed the fringe into their fold. Because now MAGA IS the fringe as a result. Known by the company they keep.
Problem with you simplistic view is I wouldn't call determined US patriots nutjobs.
The fact is the left has been trying to re-define the US Constitution for years and are very Aggressive about it. As-if the very prosecution of Trump didn't demonstrate that. They pitch "New Deals" that violate it, they pitch wealth distribution that violates it, they pitch unlawful dictation that violates it, they join foreign [Na]tional So[zi]alists US-unlawful agenda's. They've been wildly successful at hiding proof of election fraud (Mr. Pillows IP logs) without a peep about countering evidence while growing the means to invite more fraud.
There is a difference between Defending the nation (defined by the US Constitution) and Aggressively trying to destroy it. We all hope the USA won't enter another civil war but the left is making that UN-avoidable.
Consider this – what did Trump do that made so many hate him so much? He initiated a De-Regulation committee, He withdrew from the UN-Constitutional Paris Accord, He de-funded the UN-Constitutional EPA, he cut taxes, he secured the border (a Constitutional duty of the federal government), he setup more ‘fair’ trade deals, he had a goal to strengthen the USD.
Now what part of that is ‘insurrection-al’ to the USA? The obviousness is the left has their own definition of the USA. That of being a Democratic [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire. Problem is; That’s *NOT* what the USA is and as such the insurrection happening is being carried out by the left.
And as it is with everything else they do; they self-project to get away with it. Blame everyone else for EXACTLY what they themselves are doing.
What did Trump do that made so many hate him so much?
That's easy.
He halted the leftward movement, that was 0bama's fundamental transformation, and he did so, openly and effectively.
The anti-Trump cadre is nothing but closet, or out-and-proud, socialists/communists, who don't want the America, that led the world through two world wars, and on to domination.
That don't want to make America great, again but have wanted what the Soviet Union was unable to make work, in this country, only "done right".
They may not admit it, but their actions speak louder than words.
Well said. Deserves a repeat...
"They don’t want to make America great, again but have wanted what the Soviet Union was unable to make work, in this country, only 'done right'. They may not admit it, but their actions speak louder than words."
I wholly agree.
He halted the leftward movement
Did he though? Did he really? Look back at the last eight years and ask yourself whether that's really true. Because I don't think it is.
The anti-Trump cadre is nothing but closet, or out-and-proud, socialists/communists
I'm not a socialist/communist. I want the America that led the world to global supremacy. But I don't for a second think that Trump has any intention of delivering that. Not even a little bit. And I've got four years of his laughably ineffective and unaccomplished presidency to back me up on the subject.
He's got what... 10 more months to earn my vote? I mean, I'm open to him genuinely trying - but I also know a snake when I see one. And I'm not going to vote for a snake. Not one in a donkey costume, not one in an elephant costume. If that's what you want, go for it - but don't call me a communist, or even a leftist, just because I vote actual principle over moral cowardice.
The snake did indeed halt it more than any other in the last century. Care to make a substantiated correction to that statement?
It's almost like your asking for perfection and if perfection is UN-attainable you'll vote for the demon-rat. Sounds like just a pathetic excuse of feelings over logic to keep supporting a [Na]tional So[zi]alist take-over of the USA. But hey; I'm not Trump-Only. If you think Rand Paul, Thomas Masse or prob Ted Cruz can 'halt' the Nazi movement and restore the USA more perfectly that's fine too.
The snake did indeed halt it more than any other in the last century.
BS. That's a total steaming pile. And you know it.
At best, he put his finger in the dike. But he took ZERO long-term corrective measures after that. FFS, he didn't even try to take long-term corrective measures; seeming to rely instead exclusively on EO's and filling as many judicial seats with friendly's as possible. Then, once he was gone, Obama's Fundamental Transformation resumed again right where it left off. Seriously - I defy you to point to ONE SINGLE DOMESTIC POLICY GOAL that he didn't leave teed up behind him for the Democrats to hammer into the nosebleed section.
Debt? He made it worse.
Spending? Signed EVERY single bill.
Media? Unaffected, more obnoxious.
Big Tech Creep? Unaffected, and now even worse.
Immigration? Half a wall that was never going to work in the first place.
Education? *LOL*
LGBT and their Pedo Groomer pals? His bestie best besties.
China, Russia, Iran, Mexico? Still eating our lunch.
War? He literally created a legitimate Terrorist State, and left it unresolved for Biden to make even worse.
And that's not even bringing up his gross mismanagement of the scamdemic. I could do an entire diatribe on that one alone.
Oh, but you know what he was REALLY good at? Fomenting partisan hatred, leftist "ends justify means" thinking, and drumming out some of the most stalwart, reliable, and trusted Conservative voices in politics today. Gee, kinda like he was a lifelong liberal (whose entire family had to be reminded to change parties last minute) working with the Democrats the whole time.
Are you sure YOU'RE not voting for the "demon-rat" when you hand your vote to him?
It’s almost like your asking for perfection and if perfection is UN-attainable you’ll vote for the demon-rat.
Why would I vote for a Democrat? I didn't in 2020, or 2016. And I won't in 2024.
And I'm not asking for perfection either. You may think that the enemy of Good is Perfect - but what you're forgetting when you say that is that the enemy of Good is also (and still) Bad. Plain and simple. And just because you put Worse on the table, doesn't mean Bad suddenly gets points in his column. In fact, all it does is slowly condition you to accepting Bad, until you finally get to Worse and don't mind it. (See: Leftism.)
I vote for what I want. Not against what I don't want. The latter is a yoke that the aristocrats in power have kept you down with for FAR too long. And yes, that includes Mr. Trump who is and always has been just as much a fetid swamp rat as the rest of them.
Do better. Be a better citizen.
If it got resumed it got resumed from what state? halted.
You've got nothing but emotional reactions to Trump.
It got resumed because all the policy and rhetoric in the world won't amount to much if you can't govern.
And that's simply what Trump is flat out incapable of doing. He can't work with ANYONE. He couldn't work with Congress. He couldn't work with the GOP. He couldn't work with his Cabinet. FFS, even his own handpicked WH Staff was a revolving door.
Only ones he could work with, turns out, were Tony Fauci and Kim Jong Il. Weird, right?
He was no different than Barack Obama. Rule by fiat; sneer and degrade anyone who doesn't agree 100% of the time. And, unsurprisingly, he had the exact same effect on this nation - a legacy of hatred, destruction, and ruin.
You do realize most of what you said isn't true and also personality centered not accomplished centered.
Half the time TDS will say Trump is the leader of a cult yet here you are saying Trump didn't have anyone who supported/worked with him. Then you say Trump ruled by executive fiat. That is just laughable. The only executive fiat he used was to executive fiat (Cancel) Obama's executive fiat orders. This is wildly known. He didn't initiate EO COVID handling (like Biden), or EO welfare (like Biden), or thwart Congressional law (like Obama/DACA). He did re-distribute the budget for a border wall which is questionable and both are 100% guilty of setting Tarrifs by EO. But if you can't see how Trump didn't EO everything as much as most your being unfairly biased. Many times Trump lobbied that States should handle it or Congress. Something the left preaches only when a Republican is President and then carries on the EO dictation like never before when they win the Presidency.
You seem to have a complaint that Trump isn't [Na]tional So[zi]alist enough for D.C. --- You got that right 100% and it's the biggest reason I support him.
Half the time TDS will say Trump is the leader of a cult yet here you are saying Trump didn’t have anyone who supported/worked with him.
Another conflation. You're equating the MAGA rubes with those he actually had to deal with as President on a daily basis.
It's easy to get the rubes on board by telling them what they want to hear and saying what they're afraid to say. But the rubes aren't your co-workers. They're not the people from who he needs direct support and cooperation when it comes to actually getting the job done. When you actually GET the job - you've got to be able to DO it.
Trump was not able to. Hence, very few legislative accomplishments (outside of spending bills, which aren't exactly an accomplishment), very few foreign policy wins that directly affect/benefit America, and no improvement (if not irreparable damage) to America's social/cultural cohesion. For the most part, he just fed chum to people who liked him, went out of his way to piss off anyone who didn't, and trolled the media because he's an attention whore. Again, just like Barack (though Zero basked in media fawning as an attention whore instead).
And, for the record, I never said that Trump is the leader of a cult. I said that MAGA, like left-wing tribes, openly displays and evidences cult methodology. Which, btw, you literally did just now - exactly the way I explained it.
The only executive fiat he used was to executive fiat (Cancel) Obama’s executive fiat orders.
Which Biden then did to him. Rather than seeking actual solutions to Obama's screw ups, he just erased them, called it a win, and then never sought legislative action (or agency dismantling) to prevent them from coming right back as soon as he was punted out of office.
It's like taking a few aspirin for a headache, which is really a brain tumor, and calling it a day - never bothering to address the tumor because, hey, the immediate headache is gone.
Many times Trump lobbied that States should handle it or Congress.
And this is what I mean by "governance."
A President typically has an agenda, and he spends his term(s) convincing the people, and by extension the governors and legislatures, of its merits. Trump, on the other hand, would basically toss it in their court and demand their acquiescence/ obedience - and then make sure he gets the credit.
And he never even really tried. Not even with minds he might have a shot at changing. I mean, forget the types like AOC or Pelosi. If Trump had the cure for AIDS, they'd start explaining why AIDS is important for Americans to have.
But how about a Ben Sasse, or a Tom Rice? They're pretty stalwart conservatives, and spent their tenure advancing conservative goals. Not the biggest Trump fans, but that doesn't mean they were reflexively against him no matter what. Trump could have reached guys like that, and swung them over to his agenda. But, instead, they pissed Trump off once, and Trump's defining characterstic is that if you ever disagree with him - however slightly - you're dead to him after that. (Which the MAGA cult immediately turned into gospel and doctrine.)
At which point Trump spent more time making sure they got drummed out of Congress than he did trying to send Democrats packing.
Think about that. Really think about it. He took a LOT of conservative scalps. How many leftist scalps did he claim?
You seem to have a complaint that Trump isn’t [Na]tional So[zi]alist enough for D.C.
Straw man. I've actually said the exact opposite of that. That he's TOO much in that direction, not unlike Barack or Biden. You simply refuse to see it because he wielded it in a way that was beneficial to you.
The term for that, btw, is "benevolent dictator."
Same way Barack was for his bloc. (Joe less so, because he's a drooling moron.)
You have yet to make a single case about how Trump persisted [Na]tional So[zi]alism like Obama or Biden. The only thing you did is say his halting Nazi agenda wasn't legislated. (i.e. Not Perfect enough).
I did. Again:
Debt? He made it worse.
Spending? Signed EVERY single bill.
Media? Unaffected, more obnoxious.
Big Tech Creep? Unaffected, and now even worse.
Immigration? Half a wall that was never going to work in the first place.
Education? *LOL*
LGBT and their Pedo Groomer pals? His bestie best besties.
China, Russia, Iran, Mexico? Still eating our lunch.
War? He literally created a legitimate Terrorist State, and left it unresolved for Biden to make even worse.
Donald Trump was Barack's Third Term. I mean, seriously ask yourself by the end of Trump's term, after looking at the state of things both domestic and foreign, how it would have ended up any different had Barack been at the helm. Crushed by debt, rampant unchecked spending rubber stamped by the president, culture wars still raging on having been further inflamed, domestic issues completely unattended to in any meaningful way, unchecked Russia/China growing, an empowered Islamic state, zero effect on the border, far more political divisiveness, and so on and so on.
Your problem is that you want to champion Trump by pointing at a tree and saying, "See! See that tree! That proves he's the messiah!"
Never mind the forest.
Problem with you simplistic view is I wouldn’t call determined US patriots nutjobs.
When they go out to the streets (or the steps of the capitol) or gather in large warehouses to stand around self-affirming themselves like hooting like baboons hoping that counter-protesters will show up so they can bicker with them and/or high-five each other for driving them off - how is that not a group of nutjobs? We say it about the perverts having their en mass pride parades and drag shows, don't we? We say it about the climate idiots who engage in these obnoxious displays?
When people start reshaping their identity to the point that their support for Trump starts to manifest in everything they say and do - how is that not a group of nutjobs? We say that about any other leftist that's living their identity politics as their outward persona. Have you ever met a PETA fanatic? Same goes with the Trans and Drags. Literally everything they say and do is framed around their membership to that tribe.
The problem is that what you call "patriotism" quickly morphs into fanaticism. And while they may well be patriotic in their fanaticism - it's the fanaticism that ultimately defines them, not the patriotism.
Normal people just don't do this kind of thing, TJ. We have our social/political/cultural views to be sure, and we're decisive at the ballot box - but we don't obsess about it to the point where follow the movement around like some kind of groupie, making sure to show up for the pride gatherings, pick fights with the opposition tribes, or honestly spend more than a few minutes a day even thinking about it unless we're reading the news.
Determined US patriots will support their candidate and vote accordingly. They might even donate or go out and help campaign for said candidate. Maybe they even show up when he's in town because hey that's kinda neat. But when their lives become the cause and they've reshaped their identity and lifestyle to reflect that and little else and everything they think and do and say is filtered through it?
Yea, nutjob.
Consider this – what did Trump do that made so many hate him so much?
We're not talking about Trump. I don't really care why people love/hate him.
We're talking about J6, and how it's wrong to lay that at Trump's feet. Especially in some nonsense "insurrection" context.
Now what part of that is ‘insurrection-al’ to the USA?
Going bananas on the steps of and as you make your way into the Capitol and engaging in all manner of mayhem because you're upset about the fact that your candidate lost his re-election, and because you're especially upset and would like to prevent that the outgoing Veep is about to certify the results per his lawful and Constitutional obligation.
Now, that said - even in its worst framing, I don't accept that as "insurrection-al". More a riot of unhinged manic nutjobs who - like leftists - think if they have a big enough tantrum that they'll get their way.
But notice also what you're doing - trying to paint MAGA's horrific behavior and devolution into something indistinguishable from the left, by pretending it has anything to do with anything except the actions and behavior of MAGA on J6.
That's apologist nonsense. What MAGA did on J6 was inexcusable. Same way it was inexcusable for BLM, OWS, or any other pack of rabid, unhinged nutters who think they're righteous in their indiscriminate mayhem.
And if you think J6MAGA should get a pass just because BLM/OWS/Etc. did - then yea, you've crossed over into nutjob fanaticism.
(That, incidentally, is what pissed Liz Cheney off so much. The American right, who's supposed to be better than that, acting just like the unhinged American left. And, in case you're wondering, it's the same reason I never supported him in 2016/2020. Because I saw what he was doing in the name of "winning," and I am NOT ok with that.)
By your definition the very founding of the USA was by nutjobs.
In some ways, yeah. But then I'm a nut job too.
Why would you think that?
One-Phrase "Boston Tea Party" ... Look it up.
US patriotism is a record of defeating unjust politics.
So wait - which is it? MAGA J6 were actually engaged in insurrectionist activity, tantamount to that of the Boston Tea Party? That J6 was an intentionally and pre-meditated violent act of rebellious vandalism and destruction by dissidents who aimed to undermine the local stability and order?
I thought they were all just peaceful patriots there for self-guided tours of the Capitol getting played as chumps by poorly disguised FBI agents. Make up your mind.
(ps. the difference between the Founders and the MAGA nutjobs is that the Founders had a clear, planned, noble goal which they exercised with planning and precision. Unlike the fanatical, indiscriminate, and disorganized mayhem that is MAGA. MAGA ultimately just wants to impotently scream their perceived - and sometimes inaccurate - grievances at anyone who will listen, and maybe pick a few fights and vandalize some stuff along the way. Just like leftists.)
They were there to protest a fraudulent election. That's it.
So, then not like the Boston Tea Party.
According to you … not nutjob enough to be considered US patriotism.
You really are a — “If it’s not just perfect it’s rotten” type.
Which is obviously nothing but personal prejudice/biases at work.
Like I said when this whole conversation got started. Those who hate him don’t have any legitimate excuse for it.
Which is it TJ?
Were the J6'ers patriots like the Boston Tea Party, just too dumb not to get caught red-handed in their flagrant acts of violence and vandalism that were intended to send a message of dissidence to the State? (I mean, the BTP had the sense to dress up as Injuns and do it under cover of darkness. Is MAGA just too much a bunch of drooling inbred retards for that?)
Or was it mostly peaceful grandma on a self-guided tour that starts by crawling through broken windows?
You can't have it both ways. If you want to claim they're patriots, you MUST admit that they're like BLM or OWS - ie. retarded patriots who did, in fact, get up to some pretty insurrectionist acts. If you want to claim they were just peaceful attendees that had no insurrectionist purpose, you can't claim that what they were doing that day was patriotism akin to that of the Founders.
Which is it going to be?
Then you're the sort of people who burns down whole cities, aren't you? 'Known by the company you keep'.
Depends on the city and its company.
If I could Thanos-snap it right now, Iran would cease to exist. Wouldn't you do the same?
"...The problem was MAGA..."
Nope.
The 'problem' is TDS-addled shit-piles like you who assume some magical phrase like MAGA was anything like real.
You realize that in your pathetic attempt to emulate leftists, that - like their use of "racism" or "homophobia" - your use of "TDS" no longer has any meaning given that you just immediately hurl it like a bowl full of spaghetti at anyone who is even slightly critical (even if deserved) of your godking, right?
Nobody with a brain plays your silly little game of tribal "othering" anymore. And, cliche as the term may be, it's why MAGA - like many identical left-wing tribes - are accurately compared to a cult. Because that's the exact methodology of any cult.
"I don't have to defend my leader and friends, YOU have to defend to me why YOU'RE such a bad person for NOT defending us and whatever it is about you that makes you reject our programming!"
Eye. Roll.
See my last comment above. TDS has plenty of defended meaning because those who hate on Trump don't have any legitimate reasoning for it. They are but throwing spaghetti at the wall.
Course visiting a few leftard-rags comment sections pretty much wraps up that case. For the self-proclaimed intellectuals; they don't have much intellectual things to say.
I have plenty of legitimate reasoning for it. Something tells me you'd dismiss it out of hand completely.
Which, btw, is a trait of the zealous and fanatical. Just saying.
Probably. But since you don't even find any need to justify it maybe you're just throwing spaghetti at the wall.
You didn't ask me to at the time. I just did.
Cult is exactly the correct term.
And what happens when their cult leader goes off the deep end? History teaches us that his followers simply drink the Kool-Aid (actually, grape "Flavor Aid", but that's not important right now).
From "Revolutionary Airports" to now confusing his own UN Ambassador for the Democrat Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, Donald Trump has finally done it. His weird emphasis on his "mental stability" should have been a clue that he was fearful of his disability long ago. It will only get worse.
Just don't expect his MAGAlomaniacs to take the escape ramp.
They will. Just like they jumped off the Bush wagon after Jr. Bushes F’Ups unlike say how Democrats won’t get off of Obama and Biden and FDR and etc, etc, etc… That is where the ‘cult’ lies.
but of course the 'cult' practices self-project like nobodies business. As-if the literally hundreds of Trumpanize, MAGAlomaniacs, etc, etc, etc wasn't a dead give-away.
You're not wrong. Tribalism on both sides is a huge problem. We don't have a lot of people in this country who genuinely think for themselves. Most people are joiners. They want to be known by their associations be they political, social or religious. It's easier to join a group and parrot what the leaders say. But that's not a problem of the last 20 years. It's a problem that is as old as the apes we came from. Joining a tribe keeps you alive. Going along with the leader is survival 101. Everyone has to be on the same page or you die.
The only reason I lean toward the MAGA tribe is the major media outlets are members of the burn the MAGA tribe. I don't trust the media tribe, never have. So when they declare war on a tribe I tend to swing towards whomever they hate. Trump pisses off the tribes I can't stand. So I want him to win. I don't care what tribes follow him.
For me; Part of the MAGA (Make America Great Again) slogan is the tribe of USA patriotism or believers in the US Constitution which clearly is all about Individual Liberty and Justice for all.
One of the unique things about that is the USA isn't founded on a "leader" or tribe but instead is founded on a Supreme Law (document) and Individualism. Calling such a 'tribal' instinct is just more leftard projection.
I won't deny that there are some on the right that seem to carry a lot of tribal specific instinct but I also don't think the right is going to let Trump own MAGA or patriotism once he starts violating the very principles of the US Constitution like the left has done.
It's really no big secret that the left is more 'tribed' than the right. In fact it's pretty darn obvious.
Or just summarized sarcastically …. Boaf Sidezzzz??? /s
I've got no affection for trump, but after the official DNC talking points have included calling nearly every GOP win since 2020 an invalid result, claiming that similar rhetoric in Dec 2020-Jan 2021 uniquely amounts to "sedition" worthy of disqualification is possibly the 5th most flagrant example of leftist doublethink in the Covid/Post-covid era.
If I'd read this level of resoning in WaPo, or NYT, or The Nation, or Atlantic, I'd get that the author and editor had pre-decided the conclusion before constructing the "analysis". I get that Reason has an anti-trump stance, and I can respect that as there's plenty of reasons to see the man as unfit for office and unsuitable for a position of power. This particular example is still disappointing, though.
If election denial equals sedition, and sedition equals non-eligibility, then there are scores of incumbents running in 2024 who should also be removed from their respective ballots. On the upside, it would mean that neither trump nor Biden would be eligible to seek the Presidency next November and we wouldn't have to confront the consequences of one of those two managing to win the election.
"I’ve got no affection for trump..."
No one here requires a vow of being a TDS-addled shit, but we're happy you did make such a claim so we can ignore your imbecility
I get that Reason has an anti-trump stance, and I can respect that as there’s plenty of reasons to see the man as unfit for office and unsuitable for a position of power.
That's the thing, this still isn't a particularly pragmatic or libertarian stance. Still a very "The right TOP MAN is out there, I just have to find him and vote for him." mentality. We can all pretty much agree that somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Kaczynski or Charles Manson probably shouldn't hold public office. Other than that, if you're reasonably in the realm of being a pragmatic libertarian, Trump is really no more unfit for any given position of power than pretty much any other CEO from Elon Musk to Mark Cuban to Peter Thiel to Steve Jobs (were he still alive) to Bill Gates to George Lucas to Bob Iger and personal dislike, while fine for your vote, isn't a reason to disqualify someone from running or incessantly impeaching them. There's certainly shady cases for questioning all of their leadership, even as CEOs, but should the fact that Lucas and Iger put Lucas' wife in charge of the Star Wars/MCU disaster make them manifestly unfit for CEO or POTUS? Not really. It likely makes Kennedy a very bad choice but, still, not manifestly wrong or off, people should be able to hear if she's changed her terrible ideas, come up with new terrible ideas, or outsourced her thinking to someone else less terrible behind the scenes.
The thing is; while these TDS addled lefty shits make the claim that he is unfit, because of what he did 15 days before he left office, the fact is that the same ones have said the same thing, constantly, since he announced his bid for the presidency.
It would be much more convincing, if some of them had changed their position, due to the events of Jan6, but, when it has been the constant drum-beat for going on 9 years, it is just more of the same.
No prosecutor has attempted to charge President Trump with insurrection
A judicial trial is not included as a requirement because of what happened back then. Lincoln proposed lenient terms of pardon for readmission - meaning representation in Congress and certifying Prez elections and consenting for federal office. Congress disagreed with Lincoln's vision for reconstruction and passed legislation - Wade-Davis Bill - which Lincoln vetoed. But his assassination cut that short.
Johnson pardoned 12,600 in his first year. That precludes a judicial trial for insurrection - and also prevents all Congressional action re 'removing said disability'. When southern states started sending unrepentant rebs back to Congress in late 1865, it became clear the authority could not be judicial trial. It could not be executive pardon, It could not be legislation. Hence the constitutional amendment - with the power explicitly in Congress.
That means - for federal offices at least - that it is basically a political decision to taint officeholders-elect with the stain of insurrection and to remove that stain. Congress DID charge Trump with incitement to insurrection. Assuming someone there has a memory, they will bring that up on Jan6 or so 2025 when they certify the count and or the Prez-elect disability for office.
Should be a real partisan shit-show but I don't see how the math can possibly work for Trump. It is very possible a majority of both houses will see him as guilty of insurrection (like the impeachment). It is not at all possible that Congress will 'remove that taint' by a 2/3 vote. This version of insurrection is partisan insurrection and/or separation of powers insurrection not secessionary insurrection. Parties and factions finally have created a constitutional crisis.
The SC has no basis whatsoever to get involved unless they just invent some living history and make shit up. The only thing they can do is prevent states from taking that authority away from Congress. So if he gets nommed by the R's, he's on the general election ballot.
Congress DID charge Trump with incitement to insurrection.
Yes, and the Senate acquitted him, so that doesn't really help your case.
You are right that a charge isn't required, but then there has to be SOME standard, otherwise every destructive protest is going to be labelled an "insurrection" now. That's why SCOTUS needs to get involved. The 14A wasn't terribly clear on this because the US Civil War was such a major destructive event that calling it an insurrection seemed obvious. To me it seems obvious that Jan 6 was nothing at all like the US Civil War, and so the insurrection clause shouldn't apply. But since not everyone has common sense, the courts need to be involved.
The Senate didn’t acquit him. A majority found him guilty. That just happens to be short of the super-majority requirement for removal from office which is obviously in a separate part of the Constitution. But understand what this means for say a form of insurrection caused by factionalism along the lines of some issue that cause a union to break apart. Assuming the factional issue then was slavery one can easily see the problem here.
If an officeholding insurrectionist or inciter of same cannot be removed from office for partisan/factional reasons – and insurrectionists can be shielded from a judicial trial via executive pardon and thus put them into office (esp in an acting capacity without consent of Congress) – then how can partisan/factional insurrection be stopped? How can they be kept from just taking over federal offices? Again? Answer – put it in the Constitution (so equal to pardon power and impeachment) and into the power of Congress.
The FIRST attempt at impeaching Prez Johnson in late 1866 (passed the House but didn’t go to Senate – while the 14th was being ratified) – included one article: Improperly, wickedly, and corruptly using and abusing the Constitutional power of pardons for offenses against the US in order to bring traitors and rebels into places of honor, trust and profit under the Government of the US, and to screen whole classes of criminals from their crimes against the laws thereof
The proximate cause for the 14th was Congress overriding a veto by Johnson (that hadn’t happened for over 30 years). Yet another super-majority requirement that in the view of Congress gravely restricted their ability to legislate a conclusion to the civil war.
The proximate cause for Sec3 was the South sending traitors and insurrectionists to Congress in late 1865 for the purpose of restarting all the factionalism that had created problems for decades. IOW - old insurrectionists looking to create a new one.
The only legitimate way for the SC to intervene is around the edges. Maybe – can the 14ASec3 be self-executing for state office v federal office? Is a primary election a legitimate government function or is it merely a way to support factionalism? They could, I suppose, use the bully pulpit of their opinion to point out that the 14ASec3 is to deal with serious consequences of factionalism and not merely factionalism for the purpose of being at the center of attention or participating in a street fight or watching a car crash.
The Senate didn’t acquit him. A majority found him guilty. That just happens to be short of the super-majority requirement for removal from office which is obviously in a separate part of the Constitution.
So, not guilty then. Glad you've admitted that you're wrong in your attempt to split hairs.
When did you start supporting the overthrow of the Constitution? You clearly either didn't read my comment or didn't understand it or both.
I read up the point when you admitted that they didn’t reach the number required to find him guilty. Anything past that is obviously moot.
If a President is guilty of insurrection and then isn't removed from office, I'm afraid to say that heads are firmly up asses on the implication.
The only legitimate way for the SC to intervene is around the edges.
'The edges' in this case being that the Colorado Supreme Court doesn't get to decide this issue by any reading of any relevant statute.
What are you talking about? The Constitution says 2/3 is the requirement for conviction at a Senate trial. Therefore, there can be no "guilt" established at a Senate trial if only a majority (and not a 2/3 majority) of those present vote to convict.
Impeachment is not Sec3. Impeachment is about removal of an existing incumbent from office. THAT is why a super-majority is required.
No such thing is required for enabling someone to assume office. For Prez/Veep, that is covered under the contingent election clauses and 12th amendment and Electoral Count Act - and specifically in what became Sec3 - the 22nd Joint Rule of the 1865 Congress. A majority of both Houses is what is required to certify electoral counts. In the case of appointments, obviously just a majority of Senate.
Sec3 is just about that Congressional process. The same process that happened on Jan6. The intent of Sec3 was to eliminate 'creeping' insurrection or coup d'etat by exerting total congressional control over the electoral count. That is what Congress was accusing Johnson of trying to do with their different 'visions of Reconstruction'. And thus put the 14th in place - all of which was exactly what Johnson was undermining and opposing.
That second impeachment trial is not about a conviction. It is about whether a majority of both houses has a reasonable enough basis for them to vote against said person in the electoral count. And with a charge of insurrection to require a super-majority to clear Trump. iow - Trump just shot himself in the foot by doing what he did to get that second impeachment trial going.
Thanks for not clearing that up.
"That means – for federal offices at least – that it is basically a political decision to taint officeholders-elect with the stain of insurrection and to remove that stain. Congress DID charge Trump with incitement to insurrection."
And failed to convict, which means the law cannot treat those charges as anything other than the equivalent of an indictment that failed to result in a successful conviction. In other words, a moot point.
Sec 3 is not about some court of law. It is about Congress - which means politics.
And imo Jan 6 is a damn near irrelevant event in isolation. Trump broke his oath of office by toying with options to declare martial law a few days after Flynn went on Newsmax to talk about declaring martial law, etc. So a large enough portion of the Jan6 crowd understood exactly what the purpose might be. Not for them to succeed. But for them to do enough to get martial law invoked.
That threat was serious enough for all ten living SecyDefs to pen a letter on Jan3 2020 warning that the military has no role in election disputes. That any attempt to try to involve the military would take the country into dangerous, unlawful, and unconstitutional territory. That the oath of office that they take is to the Constitution and the country not to party or an individual. And yet that is precisely what Trump incited a couple days later with his bullshit about deploying the National Guard for that riot.
And even a few days later, when all eight joint chiefs penned a letter to everyone in the military – which should have come from the CinC – saying that the transition of power to a new Prez was going to be peaceful etc.
Trump obviously doesn’t give a rat’s shit about an oath of office or any restraints on that office. Nor do many of the scum here. Some people DID take their oath of office seriously.
“…The SC has no basis whatsoever to get involved unless they just invent some living history and make shit up…”
This is a matter being decided within the courts, and our special idjit chicken little somehow thinks the highest court in the land should not be involved. But then JFucked is a special level of idiocy, ain’t he?
Well, JFuck's outrunning me this evening.
"Trump obviously doesn’t give a rat’s shit about an oath of office or any restraints on that office. Nor do many of the scum here. Some people DID take their oath of office seriously."
Got a cite for that claim, shit bag? Or is it just one more "I hate Trump and will lie to support my idiocy" asshole?
Not even leftard rags will support that BS and there isn't much BS they don't support.
https://www.politifact.com/article/2021/jan/11/fact-checking-claims-about-insurrection-act-martia/
"Many social media posts pushing unproven claims about Trump invoking the Insurrection Act or declaring martial law contain information that’s misleading or inaccurate."
To be fair, this article is about Trump's recent filing. And that filing included exactly six words, "in response to the 2020 election", about the events which took place before January 6, 2021.
"The Court should also reverse because nothing that
President Trump did in response to the 2020 election or
on January 6, 2021, even remotely qualifies as “insurrection.”"
Nowhere in Trump's brief does he substantively address anything he is accused of doing before January 6. He clearly doesn't want the focus to be on those events. Care to guess why?
And most of you just took the bait...
Wrong place.
Wrong Century.
Sullum is a waste of carbon. His TDS is so intense he has become completely unglued.
KWM please get rid of him, he is an embarrassment.
^+1
(Please, please cancel him!)
The headline is misleading. Trump's brief doesn't "rebut" the claims. It merely makes counter-claims. Trump doesn't come anywhere near actually rebutting the arguments that he should be removed from the ballot, which are persuasive and compelling.
No, arguments that Trump should be removed from the ballot are unfounded, and complete bullshit.
But thanks for showing your TDS addled idiocy.
Pot meet kettle. You're the one exhibiting addled idiocy. SMH
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of lefty shit.
Yes, it is almost as if what is required is for the accuser to prove his claims beyond a reasonable doubt, and all the accused has to do is establish a reasonable doubt, not fully rebut the accusation..
That's not really how it works. None of the accusations against him have to be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" (that is the criminal standard of proof, and this is not a criminal proceeding).
Here, Trump is accused of engaging in insurrection, but his legal brief exclusively focuses on the events of January 6, 2021--ignoring all aspects of the alleged insurrection which took place in the run-up to that day. It is an attempt to misdirect attention from the less refutable events to the more arguable events.
If the events which took place prior to J6 are sufficient to prove (by a preponderance of the evidence) that Trump engaged in "insurrection" (and the 14th Amendment can be used against Trump, of course) then any "reasonable doubt" established about the events of J6 would simply be irrelevant.
"If the events which took place prior to J6 are sufficient to prove (by a preponderance of the evidence) that Trump engaged in “insurrection”,,,"
And what legal process has taken place where Trump was convicted of insurrection?
You are assuming a step which has not happened.
Why do you keep saying, "convicted of insurrection"?
Do you not understand that this is not a criminal proceeding? And accordingly, that there is no requirement for a criminal conviction?
You are assuming a step which does not exist.
It's more accurate to say Trump engaged in sedition instead of insurrection. Sedition is inciting others to engage in insurrection, which Trump is clearly guilty of.
This part of Trump's sedition on that fateful day is especially hilarious: "sacred landslide election victory". It was Joe Biden that won a sacred landslide, although not the landslidiest in history.
If Trump is indeed guilty of sedition, then so too are half of Congress and the Senate at the very least not to mention every Democrat that's lost an election since Gore. Hillary is certainly guilty of it if that's our measure.
Trump is a terrible guy, but that's not illegal. The attempts to disqualify for him for even running for office themselves are far more dangerous than the man himself.
Thinking people should be able to recognize that.
Your comment is not indicative of a thinking person. It is indicative of someone in cognitive dissonance. You don't support sedition but you support Trump. Therefore, everyone else is guilty of sedition and Trump is now just a victim.
Trump still says he won all 50 states. Still. That pathological inability to publicly recognize a reality where he isn't the center of the universe is what led him to sedition.
Biden said, “We have put together I think the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.”
Wow... Pre-Election Fact checkers say this was just a slip of the tongue for Biden who anticipated a legal fight from Trump over the outcome (pre-election) and not to worry since 'experts' say fraud is rare where only 1-in-4 in 2016 voted by mystery ballot.
Post-2020 Election shows 7-in-10 voted by mystery ballot in 2020. While the ?fact checkers? go on to explain what Biden probably meant contrary to what was said while admitting no word from Biden on the subject was ever addressed. Needless to say Biden continued on to pride the "voter fraud" organization for giving Obama a second term.
So there you have it. Admission of Guilt. No defense. Voting Numbers and a 'pre-planned' defense team to boot (like the outcome was set in stone before it ever started).
You've just conclusively proved JFree's point.
How's that?
And Hillary Clinton still says she only lost the election because of the Russians, which is kind of amusing since she got all her 'dirt' on Trump from...the Russians.
Both of them are garbage candidates, but I think it's pretty clear by now that Trump is a massive middle finger to the political caste and little else.
You should try being less of a partisan. It's easy to see this shit from outside the duopoly of American politics.
Difference being Republicans didn't find a need to jump all over Hillary with BS prosecutions like a pack of starving wolves with no satisfaction-end in sight.
The election was fishy enough with just off-the-charts statistical voting violations, a good portion of evidence and investigative ignorance. But holy-cow; the POST reaction of it really cements-in the proof. Prosecuting every person who has the nerve to question that election. The left really went off the deep-end once the fish started to smell.
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
And guilty of being a steaming pile of ignorant lefty shit.
The law in question is 18 USC 2383 (not 28 USC 2383). The link takes you to the tight place.
The 1948 law in question. There were earlier versions of this federal law criminalizing insurrection--even before the 14th Amendment supposedly empowered Congress to make them!
Good writing. You really have me thinking that Trump could be guilty if in fact he was guilty, if not for Brandenburg and the protests of George Ffloyd's murder that turned violent if 'Brandenburg' fails to get Trump guilty!!
Just looking at the five arguments of Trump’s brief, I think it’s easy where the SC comes down:
A. The President is not an officer of the United States.
Frivolous
B. President Trump did not ‘engage in insurrection’.
Irrelevant for this court (or the judiciary) to decide or opine on. The 14ASec3 puts this in Congress’ hands – and Congress is the one that can remove any consequences. Next.
C. Section 3 should be enforced only through Congress’s chosen methods of enforcement
Only for federal office. For state office, there is no reason to believe it is not dual self-executing like the rest of the 14th. IOW – states can enforce for state office but if they refuse to enforce then congress can override and force it to enforce. But it would be ridiculous to argue that absent Congress micromanaging every govt official in every state, then nothing can be enforced.
D. Section 3 cannot be used to deny President Trump access to the ballot .
True dat – for the GENERAL election ballot. Primary elections are not elections for either state or federal office. They serve only to subsidize organized factions, channel corruption into those party organizations, and eliminate electoral competition. They are not the SC business.
E. The Colorado Supreme Court violated the Electors Clause and the Colorado Election Code
They did not violate the Electors Clause. A primary election does not elect electors. If this argument is merely an attempt to prohibit ballot initiatives (generally a modern R goal), I suppose it is possible the SC will go along with that since ballot initiatives didn’t exist in 1789. The SC will not intervene in interpreting state law in the absence of a constitutional/federal issue.
Except how are these first two items not core to the argument? After all, the central question is if he engaged in insurrection, and his argument is that he did not.
You are assuming you conclusion by dodging the question. And your other comments are literally just making stuff up.
That's JFucked, noted TDS-addled chicken little who supported Fauci's lies during the lock downs, and now is supporting any lie the asshole can find in the hopes that Trump will not be allowed to be elected.
The President is an officer of the US. That will be the easiest 9-0 I've ever seen
The authority to decide on the issue of insurrection disability is Congress' not the SC. If the SC were to decide he is untainted, that would directly usurp Congress' explicit authority to remove any taint. If they were to decide he is tainted, then they are playing whose got a bigger majority (is 5-4 ok for that because the Senate had a bigger majority than that in the impeachment) and essentially nullifying/vetoing the impeachment and forcing Congress to override that SC veto with a super-majority. Opining on this authoritatively would be way beyond any legal interpretation of the Constitution. It would be direct interference with constitutional legislative authority. And in both cases, direct interference in electioneering.
Which would create an odd state whereby Congress would need to clear every candidate of being free of the charge of insurrection since presuming innocence of such a charge would usurp Congressional authority on any such determination.
That would be that logical result of the legal theory you propose.
There is no odd legal theory here. You may want the SC to substitute judicial activism over Congress' explicit and/or already-invoked authority on this issue. But it won't happen
What Congressional authority? The Senate failed to convict. An impeachment is the equivalent of a grand jury indictment, so you are suggesting to strip rights away on the basis of what amounts to a failed indictment.
But if the term "insurrection or rebellion" appears in the Constitution, under current Supreme Court jurisprudence the Supreme Court may decide what that term means.
I would agree except that Congress already raised this issue in the impeachment. Roberts chose not to preside over that trial because Trump was already out of office and hence couldn't be removed from office. But it's not plausible that he'll now come back in and say this is the SC authority.
The impeachment trial was a completely different situation. In addition, it's hardly up to Roberts alone.
It's funny how State-Rights you leftards get when it serves your agenda. Sorry to bust your bubble but what's this here, "but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations"
May does not mean shall and it does not mean must.
Why are you pretending the US Constitution granted complete election legislative ability to the State when that is clearly false?
Just because Trump is on a ballot does not make something a federal election. In the case of a primary election, it’s not even a real election. It 'requires' that state’s delegation at the GOP convention to vote a particular way at that convention on the first ballot. It doesn’t select any of those delegates. It doesn’t even have any teeth for the first ballot if the delegation decides to do whatever they want when they get to the convention. It has NO consequence. Like all party primaries, it is a state subsidy to political parties that functions as a beauty contest.
WTF do you think is the constitutional/federal issue here?
You make a good point.
A point that also makes any CO Court ruling entirely invalid on the matter.
>The 14ASec3 puts this in Congress’ hands
Section 3 says no such thing, only that Congress can vote to "remove such disability."
Next!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IqOkWttc6A
Trump has not been convicted of insurrection in a court of law. Happily, neither 'reason' nor the NY Slimes is a court of law. If a mere accusation is sufficient to disqualify someone, then I hereby declare that Jacob Sullum is guilty of insurrection.
And if Jacob Sullum tries to hold a prohibited office, I'm sure you will challenge it in court.
"That description omits crucial context, including the two months that Trump had spent ginning up his supporters' outrage with phony claims of a stolen election, his messages encouraging them to attend a rally that he said would be "wild," and the apocalyptic rhetoric of his speech at the Ellipse, which warned that Congress was about to destroy democracy by anointing a pretender as president."
Can it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump knew his accusations of election fraud were not only wrong but made in bad faith in a proper venue for due process in a criminal matter.
"Those actions and inactions rightly led to Trump's impeachment by the House and should have resulted in his conviction by the Senate,"
Except the Senate did not pass a guilty verdict, and we cannot treat the matter as if it did no matter how much Sullum would will that reality into being if he could.
"Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the criminal standard of guilt; this is a civil case, where the standard is "by a preponderance of the evidence".
Care to try again, or will you just ignore this inconvenient fact, too?
The preponderance of evidence clearly is that Trump believed that he had been cheated, especially at the beginning. By January, there may have been doubt in his mind, but I can find no evidence that he believed that he had lost and was fighting to overturn an election.
The standard of proof in a civil proceeding is, as mentioned above preponderance of the evidence (generally speaking, more than 50-50). The question to be proven is, did Trump engage in insurrection, within the meaning of the Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.
Trump's beliefs at the time could be relevant, but remember, the question to be determined is whether he engaged in insurrection, not his state of mind at the time. Even assuming he had 100% belief that the election had been stolen, that would not necessarily prevent him from being disqualified from holding office under the 14th Amendment if his response to it is considered "engaging in an insurrection" within the meaning of Section 3 thereof.
I thought some recent comments by former AG Barr were helpful. To remove someone's ability to hold office, you need some kind of formal adjudication in an adversarial legal setting to remove that right. That legal process has not occurred when it comes to POTUS Trump.
The political process did occur. The House tried POTUS Trump for incitement to insurrection, and impeached the POTUS as a result of that trial. The House found POTUS Trump guilty (he was impeached). The Senate's sole role in impeachment is the penalty; to remove from office, or not. Guilt was already determined by the House. The Senate declined to remove POTUS Trump.
I don't think this can be settled by SCOTUS, no matter what decision they make. The only way this gets settled is at the ballot box (or POTUS Trump is dead, in which case it is moot). The People themselves need to decide POTUS Trump's fate in November at the ballot box; the lawyers and politicians cannot.
You wrote:
That legal process has not occurred when it comes to [former] POTUS Trump.
However,
After permitting President Trump and the Colorado Republican State Central Committee (“CRSCC”; collectively, “Intervenors”) to intervene in the action below, the district court conducted a five-day trial. The court found by clear and convincing evidence that President Trump engaged in insurrection as those terms are used in Section Three. Anderson v. Griswold (Dist. Ct., City & Cnty. of Denver, Nov. 17, 2023). But, the district court concluded,
Section Three does not apply to the President. Therefore, the court
denied the petition to keep President Trump off the presidential primary ballot. [citations omitted]
This is from the Colorado Supreme Court ruling on the Trump question. There's the "some kind of formal adjudication in an adversarial legal setting" you were saying needed to happen.
There was plenty of coverage of the Colorado district court proceedings and its ruling. There is really not much excuse for saying that there wasn't an opportunity for due process in that state, at least.
The People themselves need to decide POTUS Trump’s fate in November at the ballot box; the lawyers and politicians cannot.
The people decided Trump's fate in Nov. 2020, but neither he nor his core of followers accepted that result. I don't expect this time around to be any different should Trump be the GOP nominee.
I happen to, agree = ...people decided Trump’s fate in Nov. 2020...and...I don’t expect this time around to be any different should Trump be the GOP nominee.
1. Barr is probably not quite as thrilled, since you have clearly misunderstood him. The legal process with respect to the 14th Amendment is ongoing, but has already involved at least three formal legal hearings at which Trump was represented by counsel. And it is not over, with the Supreme Court likely to weigh in at some point. Sure, the legal process has not yet finished, but it certainly will include due process.
2. No, the House didn't try Trump for anything. The House's function in impeachment is akin to a grand jury handing down an indictment. They investigated, held hearings, and voted to impeach Trump. That does not involve a finding of "guilt" any more than it constitutes a conviction.
As directed by the Constitution, the impeachment trial was held in the Senate, at which Trump was acquitted (because fewer than 2/3 of the Senators present voted to convict). Trump has never been found "guilty" of anything he was charged with during his two impeachments. He was acquitted both times, by the Senate.
The Senate, as it happens, didn't really hold a trial (as seemingly required by the Constitution), but they did go through the motions and vote at the end, so I guess it qualifies.
3. Your preferences will surely by noted by the Supreme Court, assuming they agree to decide the Trump insurrection issue at all. But the only controlling law here is the 14th Amendment. If the Supreme Court holds that Trump is covered by the disqualification under Section 3, and agrees that he is disqualified from holding the office of President (either affirmatively or passively), that's the end of the discussion (unless the Constitution is amended).
It's irritating that a long dissertation and hundreds of comments overlook the fact that Trump DOES NOT need to be convicted of "engaging in insurrection" to be disqualified as a candidate.
Section 3 doesn't end at the word "insurrection"; it is followed by "OR given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof [the Constitution]". Trump didn't literally "engage" in an insurrection, but he certainly gave "aid and comfort" to those who wanted to achieve an insurrection (terminating a legal procedure by force).
No one is overlooking that, it's been mentioned several times. Also, no one is claiming that he must be convicted of the crime of insurrection.
However, it's still significant evidence in his favor. If Jan 6 was so obviously an insurrection (as Ilya Somin claims), then it's really strange that not only not Trump, but NO ONE involved in Jan 6 was charged with insurrection, not even rioters who were actively attacking police.
And let's not forget the double standard. If January 6th counts as an insurrection, so do numerous other incidents. If you have such a low bar as "attempting to terminate a legal procedure", then I can name a dozen incidents by the opposition during Trump's reign, and it might even include that congressman that pulled a fire alarm.
I don't think people are overlooking it, but you're right that the heavy lifting is occurring around the "insurrection" bit.
However, don't we need to know what "insurrection" means (for purposes of the 14th Amendment) before we can ascertain whether Trump has given "aid or comfort" to others who were engaged in it?
Sullum himself is pretty misleading here. The riot started well before the end of Trump's speech, so it's hard to say that anything that happened that day was directly related to it. Calling it a "pre-riot" speech is nonsense. The riot happened a mile away, and few if any of the instigators heard anything he said that day.
And however idiotic and heated his rhetoric was during the previous two months, there's no excuse for legal remedies against it. It's free speech, and it's irritating to have to remind libertarians of that. Sullum would call any attempt to punish someone legally for saying, "Hey we're going to a protest and it's gonna be WILD" as pure fascism. And he'd be right. Sullum is the fascist here for even suggesting this is a legitimate angle of argument. It's not.
Challenging, and not a slam-dunk either way. Storming the seat of government by force is on the list of archetypes for a rebellion/insurrection, I think it's fair to say. But Trump's speech that day was clearly lawyer-vetted to pass the Brandenberg test. But that's not the test for the 14th amendment, for which no test is defined, unfortunately.
As you note, the key act was the long campaign to convince his supporters the election was stolen. If you believed an election was stolen, and you confirmed that with proper due diligence (an important thing no rioter did) it would be your patriotic duty to engage in insurrection. So this is a new class of offence, falsely and willfully creating a situation where loyal, patriotic citizens would feel compelled to attack their government by force -- exploiting their lack of due diligence. I think the claim that this is engaging in insurrection is a reasonable one, and the high court should define the terms of this if it wants to send this back down to the Colorado court. That court might work harder to study evidence of Trump's own mindset (many witnesses say he was repeatedly informed the election fraud claims were false.) It might be difficult or possible to gather evidence on his state of mind. One could also study the state of mind of rioters, can you prove they rioted because Trump told them an election was being stolen. It might be reasonably easy to do that.
Good points. At least four rioters were convicted of "seditious conspiracy", which is akin to attempted (it doesn't have to succeed) insurrection. Of course, those charges were a small part of the bundle of charges that prompted those rioters to "make a deal" with the prosecutors and plead guilty.
I think there's plenty of evidence that Trump "aided and abetted" the actions of those who wanted to prevent a lawful transfer of power by force, which is also akin to insurrection.
Certainly, Trump controlled the speakers at the preceding rally. Giuliani and several others were explicit about their hope of stopping the count of electoral votes.
Although Trump never literally "engaged" in the riot, it was clear that he *wanted to*, but prevented by his Secret Service agents.
I think there's some reason to believe those seditious conspiracy charges were specifically brought against people who'd likely plead guilty, just so that the "Insurrection!" crowd could point to them.