Did Trump Really Believe the Election Was Stolen? Here Is Why It Matters.
The new federal charges against Trump depend on the assumption that his claims were "knowingly false."

The indictment that was unsealed yesterday in United States of America v. Donald J. Trump uses the phrase "knowingly false" 33 times, referring to the former president's claims about the massive fraud that supposedly denied him his rightful victory in the 2020 election. There is a very good reason why that characterization is sprinkled throughout the indictment: All of the charges—which include conspiring to defraud the United States, conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiring to deprive Americans of their voting rights—depend on the assumption that Trump did not really think he had won reelection.
Nearly three years after Trump began complaining about "a major fraud" that supposedly had delivered a phony victory to Joe Biden, however, it remains unclear whether he honestly believed the nonsense he was spouting. The indictment itself includes evidence pointing in both directions.
The question is not whether a reasonable person would have believed that some combination of illegal ballots and deliberately corrupted voting machines had changed the election outcome, because the defendant is not a reasonable person. He is a man who cannot stand to admit defeat and who has a long history of listening to advisers who tell him what he wants to hear. Given these traits, it is plausible that he would latch onto any claim, no matter how absurd or unsubstantiated, that helped him deny the reality that voters had rejected him.
The indictment details the many times that people who supported Trump's reelection, including campaign employees, top Justice Department officials, and state officials charged with overseeing the election or certifying its results, debunked specific fraud claims or candidly told him he had no choice but to acknowledge that he had lost. Yet Trump persisted in pushing the stolen-election narrative, seemingly impervious to any evidence contradicting it.
As Special Counsel Jack Smith sees it, Trump's stubbornness shows that he was "determined to remain in power" and therefore pressed claims he knew to be false, ultimately resorting to extralegal tactics. He and his allies filed a slew of uniformly unsuccessful lawsuits challenging the election results—which they had a right to do, as the indictment acknowledges. But they went too far, the government says, when they hatched a scheme to enlist "fake electors" in seven battleground states, aiming to create the impression that there was a genuine question about whether Joe Biden had won those states.
Trump et al. repeatedly urged the Justice Department to reinforce that impression by falsely telling state officials that it had "identified significant concerns that may have impacted the outcome of the election in multiple States." During a phone conversation, Trump reportedly told Acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen, "Just say that the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressmen." Trump's demands and his plan to appoint a more compliant replacement for Rosen nearly led to a mass resignation by senior department officials.
Meanwhile, Trump and Giuliani were urging legislative leaders in states such as Arizona, Georgia, and Michigan to recognize his electors instead of Biden's. In response, Arizona House Speaker Rusty Bowers, a Republican, explained that he could not do what Trump and Giuliani wanted: "The law does not authorize the Legislature to reverse the results of an election. As a conservative Republican, I don't like the results of the presidential election. I voted for President Trump and worked hard to reelect him. But I cannot and will not entertain a suggestion that we violate current law to change the outcome of a certified election."
Trump repeatedly pressured Vice President Mike Pence, publicly and privately, to intervene in the purported controversy while overseeing the congressional tally of electoral votes on January 6, 2021. Trump urged Pence to accept the Republican slates, reject Biden's, or send the competing slates back to the states, where legislators supposedly could choose between them. According to the indictment, he did that even though he knew Pence had no such authority and recognized that there was no factual basis for arguing that Biden did not win those states.
Frustrated by Pence's refusal to go along with this scheme, Trump turned his ire on his vice president, publicly criticizing him for lacking the "courage" to cooperate. He did that after angry Trump supporters attacked the Capitol on January 6, disrupting the congressional certification of Biden's victory and forcing Pence to flee along with the legislators. Trump had summoned those supporters to Washington for a "SAVE AMERICA RALLY," at which he warned them that the republic's fate was at stake and urged them to "peacefully" march on the Capitol in protest.
According to the indictment, Trump did all this as part of a criminal plot to remain in power. He knew his grievance was phony, and he knew the tactics he was using to overturn the election results were illegal.
That interpretation is plausible, but so is an alternative explanation that will be at the center of Trump's defense. Trump, who to this day insists the election was rigged, maintains that he was pursuing legitimate remedies for a grave injustice. He says he relied on advice from lawyers like Rudy Giuliani and John Eastman, both of whom the indictment describes as co-conspirators. Unlike the many skeptics in Trump's circle, those advisers reinforced his conviction that he had won and assured him that he had legal options to change the outcome even after the electors were certified.
To support its interpretation, the government cites evidence suggesting that Trump understood he had lost. During a meeting with Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley and other national security advisers on January 3, 2021, the indictment says, Trump "calmly" accepted a recommendation that the issue they were discussing should be left for the next administration, since Biden's inauguration was just 17 days away. "Yeah, you're right," Trump allegedly said. "It's too late for us. We're going to give that to the next guy."
Three days before the Capitol riot, that conversation suggests, Trump acknowledged the reality that he would be leaving the White House on January 20. But that does not necessarily mean he accepted the legitimacy of that result. On the day of the riot, the indictment notes, Trump declined to intervene, "instead repeatedly remarking that the people at the Capitol were angry because the election had been stolen." Late that afternoon, Trump "joined others in the outer Oval Office to watch the attack on the Capitol on television" and remarked, "See, this is what happens when they try to steal an election. These people are angry. These people are really angry about it. This is what happens." That sounds more like a true believer than a con man.
In favor of the latter reading, the indictment notes that Trump had previously expressed skepticism about a baroque conspiracy theory promoted by Sidney Powell, a lawyer whom the indictment describes as "Co-Conspirator 3." Two weeks after the election, Powell appeared at a press conference alongside Giuliani and Trump campaign lawyer Jenna Ellis, who described Powell as a member of the campaign's "elite strike force team." In that capacity, Powell outlined an elaborate international plot involving Dominion Voting Systems, tricky software, fake ballots, election officials across the country, George Soros, the Clinton Foundation, deceased Venezuelan strongman Hugo Chavez, and "communist money through Venezuela, Cuba, and likely China."
At a meeting with advisers that same month, the indictment says, Trump conceded that Powell's "claims regarding the voting machine company" were unsubstantiated and remarked that she sounded "crazy." Trump nevertheless publicly embraced the essence of Powell's story: that software supplied by Dominion had "switched" massive numbers of Trump votes to Biden votes. Did Trump cynically promote that claim, knowing it to be false, or did he decide, in his desperation to avoid conceding the election, that maybe it was not so crazy after all? With Trump, either motivation is possible.
The same goes for all the times Trump was told that there was no evidence to support specific claims involving illegal voting or fake ballots. In mid-November, for example, a senior campaign adviser "informed the Defendant that his claims of a large number of dead voters in Georgia were untrue."
In an email the following month, the same adviser complained about the repeatedly debunked claim that election workers at Atlanta's State Farm Arena had produced and counted thousands of fake ballots. "When our research and campaign legal team can't back up any of the claims made by our Elite Strike Force Legal Team," he wrote, "you can see why we're 0-32 on our cases. I'll obviously hustle to help on all fronts, but it's tough to own any of this when it's all just conspiracy shit beamed down from the mothership."
Again and again, Trump ignored such objections and continued to promote claims that his advisers said had no merit. He re-upped several of those claims during the notorious January 2, 2021, telephone conversation in which he urged Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to "find" the votes necessary to overturn Biden's victory in that state. Trump floated a litany of discredited rumors and conspiracy theories that Raffensperger and his office's general counsel, Ryan Germany, politely but firmly refuted. Trump was unswayed.
When you read the transcript of that conversation, it is hard to tell what Trump is thinking. Any rational person would have taken to heart what Raffensperger and Germany were saying and either changed his mind or at least taken a closer look at the fraud claims. But again, Trump is not a rational person.
Trump initially acknowledges that the rumors he describes "may not be true." But within a few sentences, he seems to have convinced himself that allegations of ballot shredding and equipment swaps are reliable enough to establish "a very sad situation."
Later Trump practically begs for confirmation of the claims. "Do you think it's possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County?" he says. "Because that's what the rumor is. And also that Dominion [Voting Systems] took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their, uh, machinery. Do you know anything about that? Because that's illegal, right?"
The ambiguity of that conversation reflects a broader problem that prosecutors will face in trying to convict Trump. Proving a conspiracy to defraud the United States requires showing that Trump was deceitful rather than delusional. The alleged conspiracy to "injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate" people in their exercise of voting rights (including the right to have their votes counted) likewise requires criminal intent. And the government has to prove that Trump "corruptly" sought to obstruct the electoral vote tally.
Even if independently illegal conduct is enough to establish that a defendant acted "corruptly," the government must prove that Trump knew his tactics were unlawful. The lawyers he favored were telling him otherwise.
There is a colorable argument, based on the precedent established by the 1960 dispute over Hawaii's electoral votes, that presenting "contingent" electors was a legitimate way to preserve the Trump campaign's options should it prevail in legal challenges to the election results. As the indictment notes, that is the rationale that Trump's lawyers offered when they persuaded Republican nominees for the Electoral College in the supposedly contested states to sign certificates identifying themselves as "duly elected and qualified": They would be counted only if Trump's pending election lawsuits were successful.
If the would-be electors accepted that theory, it is possible that Trump did too. By January 6, of course, it should have been clear there was no chance that Congress would accept the "contingent" electors, reject Biden's slates, or ask state legislatures to resolve the supposed conflicts. In trying to achieve one of those outcomes through Pence's intervention, Trump was asking him to do something that Pence rightly concluded was beyond his constitutional powers. But again, Eastman was advising Trump that the cockamamie plan was a viable option.
Before the indictment, Pence, who is now competing with Trump for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination, said "history will hold him to account for his actions that day." But Pence was skeptical of attempts to hold Trump criminally liable. "I hope it doesn't come to that," he said. "I'm not convinced that the president acting on bad advice of a group of crank lawyers that came into the White House in the days before January 6 is actually criminal."
Commenting on the indictment today, Pence again condemned Trump's conduct. "I really do believe that anyone who puts themselves over the Constitution should never be president of the United States," he told reporters. "And anyone who asks someone else to put themselves over the Constitution should never be president of the United States again." But Pence reiterated that "the president was surrounded by a group of crackpot lawyers." He noted that "it will be up to the government now to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this actually represented criminal activity."
Did Trump drink the Kool-Aid mixed up by Eastman, Giuliani, and the other advisers that Smith describes as his co-conspirators? Did he really believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that Biden stole the election? After covering Trump's election claims since November 2020, I'm still not sure. Fair-minded jurors are apt to have similar doubts.
[This post has been updated with additional comments from Pence.]
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Sullum,
This is your brain.
This is your brain on TDS (see article above).
It's always funny watching the defenders of the midnight ballot dumps, the COVID rules changes and the unverified ballots are all the same people that cheered for Hillary's coup with the alphabet agencies and defended the Biden corruption. Somehow we are supposed to take what they say seriously in any manner other than a threat.
Something like 60% of voters believe the election was a crock. Now, some of them are OK with that, but it's not exactly a fringe position that the 2020 election had massive irregularities.
Do you have a source for your 60% claim? I have not seen one shred of actual evidence that the election was "stolen". Guiliani has admitted in court documents that he knew the claims were false. Every court that has looked into it, mostly with Republican and Trump appointed judges, has found nothing.
I am of the opinion that Jan 6th was nothing but an over aggressive cosplay event that may have been driven over the top by the FBI, but I also think the evidence shows that Biden got more votes than Trump.
Giuliani admitted to ONE claim as being false. But you idiots stretch it to covet all claims. There are a dozen court cases that have been completed regarding illegal election changes.
An example.
https://wisconsinexaminer.com/2022/07/08/wisconsin-supreme-court-declares-absentee-ballot-drop-boxes-are-illegal/
It is amazing how little liberals know and how freely they repeat the liberal narratives.
The borg collective thinks for them.
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first of all.... not a liberal; refused to vote for Hillary or Joe.
Next, If a state has a legal dispute about the procedures of their election, that does not mean that the results were a fraud. Trump threatened an election official in Georgia to find him votes based on wild accusations and theories, none of which have ever been proven. He named Ms Moss and Ms Freeman, the women that Rudy has admitted lying about. If he also knew these accusations were lies then that is a crime.
For what its worth, I think most of the claims about Jan 6th are bogus and that Faucci should be indicted for lying to congress and that if or when we find out that Joe Biden was aware of and involved in his sons shenanigans, then they should go before a court as well. But none of that makes Trump innocent. He is a loudmouthed morally bankrupt, thin skinned, egotistical moron. I get that the "elite" have screwed over most of the country with the help of corporations and the MSM, but this bozo is an embarrassment, not the answer.
Trump threatened an election official in Georgia to find him votes based on wild accusations and theories, none of which have ever been proven.
You repeat the false liberal narrative yet again while claiming to not be a liberal, why?
For the 4th time. The transcript is public. It is a few minutes to read if you didnt want to come off as ignorant. First half of the call is about illegal votes to PO boxes, non existent addresses, and other issues that are illegal by ga election laws. Find the votes literally came after a long list of illegal votes.
If he also knew these accusations were lies then that is a crime.
See my first post and the documents in the link. He still believes there were illegal votes in 2020. But you persist. But not a liberal.
If a state has a legal dispute about the procedures of their election, that does not mean that the results were a fraud.
If an election official ignores election laws to help their preferred party it is in fact fraudulent. This was determined in over a dozen cases. Likewise making it easy to commit voter fraud leads to voter fraud, see the Times article admitting to it. There was even a case in election where a politician was indicted for filling out multiple ballots himself.
I know you have a narrative and it is easier to just repeat narratives blindly.
“You know, that’s a criminal offense. And you know, you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you.” .. Trump threatening Ratffensperger, a Republican BTW.
Also, you are correct, there are dozens of cases about election laws in several states, however the vast majority were dropped or dismissed or those bringing the case lost. 2 cases are ongoing and there was 1 win in Wisconsin about absentee ballots requiring ID. Not a slam dunk for fraud.
Do you know how indirect objects work?
Voting illegally is a criminal offense. You are cutting it out without the subject to change the meaning and application. But not a liberal.
By the way, weird how you skipped over your claims of manufacturing votes lol.
Trump won over a dozen cases. A dropped case does not mean an event didn't occur. There was no judicial determination. But not a liberal.
That’s not a threat, it’s a statement of fact.
The whole thing is sad. Our country is right now a joke. There is not a decent person actually running for office. The MSM is corrupt and social media only drives people farther apart. I am going to go have dinner.
The joke is the people who blindly trust governments to investigate themselves and support political prosecutions like you are literally doing right here.
Hilarious to see elements of the gullible MAGA crowd who literally accept everything Trump says as truth, lecturing about blind trust.
Do you have a citation for the class? Becaise the only people who have actually offered up facts and citations over narratives have been those you call MAGA. Weird.
Maddow cult loves narratives though.
Hilarious to see elements of the gullible MAGA crowd who literally accept everything Trump says as truth, lecturing about blind trust.
You actually believe this is about Trump? Out of curiosity, what excuse are you going to cower behind when you discover the perversion of justice doesn't end where your team begins?
"The whole thing is sad. Our country is right now a joke."
America has been the laughing stock of the entire world since the election of Ronald Alzheimers Reagan and his assertion that Bee poop was Russian Chemical Weapons.
And America has just gotten dumber and dumber since then.
Die.
Reagan was reelected, getting 49 States, and won the cold war without firing a shot.
It is amusing that every case of election fraud in the last election has been committed by A Republican.
It's hilarious.
there are videos out there of Lefties claiming stolen elections.
Get doxed
"first of all…. not a liberal; refused to vote for Hillary or Joe."
Liar.. Liar.. Pants on Fire...
That is not the slam dunk you think it is. The decision did NOT invalidate any election result, but only identified the process as not meeting the state constitution. Still no proof of fraud to the level of changing the result.
Making illegal changes to law to benefit a group is in fact fraudulent.
Yes, but the claim is not that there was some amount of fraud somewhere. In an election with 150 million ballots, of course there’s going to be some amount fraud.
The claim is that there was enough fraud to tip the result to Biden, when it should have been a win for Trump. Having all those cases get adjudicated, and having only one case in one state find irregularities, and even there not in sufficient numbers to overturn the result, is pretty much a 100% refutation of the claim that Trump really won the election.
It will be tempting to motte and bailey the issue, switching between “some fraud“ and “enough fraud to tip the election“ as seems most advantageous in the moment. Don’t.
There was, and if you claim otherwise you're either a liar or very stupid.
It didn’t have to be massive or widespread. If I remember correctly it was like half a million votes between five or six battleground counties.
"The whole thing is sad. Our country is right now a joke."
America has been the laughing stock of the entire world since the election of Ronald Alzheimers Reagan and his assertion that Bee poop was Russian Chemical Weapons.
And America has just gotten dumber and dumber since then.
Die.
No joke. Some people elected a senile, corrupt moron to be President right now.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2022/03/28/new_peer-reviewed_research_finds_evidence_of_2020_voter_fraud_147378.html#!
This poll showed about 50% think there was cheating. 35% of democrats polled thought there was cheating.
To be fair, I didn’t dig into the primary info, so I can’t say what anyone considered “cheating”. But the sentiment was definitely there.
His source is his Anus.
A lot of people also believe the moon landing was fake, the police are here to help you, and large government is a good thing.
Argumentum ad populum is never good.
100% of Republicans make up statistics and Lie with every breath.
I have never encountered a Republican or Libertarian who weren't congenital and perpetual liars....
Never.
You believe Jussie Smollett.
Hilarious made-up number. I didn't vote for my cousin (JB), nor Trump. But *many* of my business owning friends who voted for The Donald in Round One swore they wouldn't, ever again, do so. Republican ex-presidents said the same.
Many of the polls were showing that Biden, by dint of not being Trump, would likely win. Same way that Trump won, by dint of not being HRC.
Now, did Trump believe that he was screwed over? I don't believe so. I think the believed that a coup attempt would somehow help him.
It did not.
The "fringe position" is that the election was valid. Only sociopaths cling to that talking point.
Dude "midnight ballot dumps" never happened. All of these things have been litigated.
We warned you in 2016. Donald Trump has no principles. Lindsey Graham even recognized as much.
At this point, this has very little to do with Trump and everything to do with the GOP having conclusively demonstrated that it has no principles, no leaders, and no real platform. I don't know what's going to become of the GOP once it finishes self-immolating but I feel Edmund Burke was near--prescient when he described conservatism's best role as that of opposition party. The ironic thing is Burke's fear about bad faith actors using their resources to get elected just to use the power of their office to enrich themselves - something he viewed as a potential excess of liberal democracy - came true in this case.
You sound wholly untethered from reality, btw.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA! You cite Lindsey Graham on Trump and a lack of ethics? What kind of shill or sock are you?
sockiest shill this side of sockton?
That was a powerful refutation!
Mike hates it when his socks get mocked.
Dude “midnight ballot dumps” never happened. All of these things have been litigated.
False.
We warned you in 2016. Donald Trump has no principles. Lindsey Graham even recognized as much.
Non sequitur that has no legal bearing.
Other nonsense was emotional blathering as well.
They can litigate those claims now. If the charges claim Trump knew the election was fair, he can introduce any evidence that would make him believe otherwise as a defense. Of course I'm sure the liberal judge will deny him that right. But that will be grounds for appeal and even more evidence the entire thing is political persecution.
In the proud boys lawsuit trial in D.C. the judge prejudiced the facts before the trial declaring what was the truth. Expect that here.
Uh, Bush Republicans orchestrated the coup to install Pence as president.
You MAGAts live in an alternate reality.
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I think it's hysterical that his best (only?) defense will be "I am as gullible as my base". I can't really see Trump, with his stable genius very big brain and his very good genes, actually relying on his credulity, his inability to think critically and his inability to accept inconvenient information on the stand, although he really doesn't have a choice. He will have to pretend that he believed the Kraken Lady and TV-Rudy's Leaky Head over Don McGahn, Pat Cippolone, Chris Krebbs- his hand-picked leader of the Department of Homeland Security’s Cybersecurity & Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA), and other visibly sane advisors.
Of course he knew it was false. That was never really a question among anyone who looked at the election rationally. His *only* defense is his own stupidity. What a fitting end.
All of this shit will be thrown out.
After that happens you’ll just say no one ever believed it anyway.
“I think it’s hysterical that his best (only?) defense will be “I am as gullible as my base”…”
Not nearly as pathetic as: “I’m a TDS-addled steaming pile of lefty shit”, TDS-addled steaming pile of lefty shit
I don't know about that. Trump pleading stupidity is pretty damned pathetic.
Trump is clearly mentally ill, as are his MAGAt supporters.
He passed a mental acuity test. Could Biden?
Trump is clearly mentally ill, as are his MAGAt supporters.
How can anyone be certain the election was NOT stolen? There is plenty of anecdotal evidence as well as shenanigans about late-date procedural changes to make it impossible to BE certain. One can CLAIM certainty, but that is mere opinion. Just as the STOLEN claim is mere opinion.
Of COURSE he knew it was bullshit! How could that even be in dispute? He made the exact same claim about losing the popular vote in 2016. He made the same claim when he was beaten by Ted Cruz in the Iowa primary. The moment his campaign told him it was looking more and more likely that he could lose, he began telegraphing the fact that he would lose in 2020 ,and that he would blame it on fraud. Every expert in the White House told him the truth. He accidentally admitted it over and over and over, from sideways accidental mentions (always covered up immediately) of the obvious fact, to things like telling Pence that he was “too honest” for not going along. It’s just stupid to to even pretend that he actually believed Rudy’s Leaky Head and The Krakenlady and Steve Bannon over the professionals and experts on whom he relied for legitimate information every day in his administration.
Nevertheless…. It will be really funny to watch him actually have to claim that his “Very Large Brain” and Very Good Genes” were, in the end, no match for his stupidity. And that is his best shot at staying out of jail: to claim he was just as dumb as the hicks and rubes who are paying his legal fees- some of whom *actually believe* the bullshit, carnival-barker story about Ruby Freeman and others. He will have to argue that 60 lost court cases, Mike Pillow’s Cyber Waste of Internet Bandwidth, and the Cyber Ninjas fraudit showing that he lost Maricopa County by even MORE than the original tally were unable to convince him that he lost an election that people told him was likely going to lose. I just want to see him take the stand to proclaim his gullibility and idiocy. I’m sure there will be dumb-assed hicks and rubes fawning all over him to chant “One of Us! One of Us!” TDS is real, to be sure. It just means quite the opposite of what MAGAt’s think it means.
what a complete fucking idiot.
I have no doubt that a DC jury will find Trump guilty of all charges and will probably take very little time to reach their verdict. The problem is that they will then have to wait for the trial to begin and sit through the whole ordeal before they can finally render their verdict.
I have no problem believing that that the is goal of the DoJ under Garland knowing it will be overturned by the USSC in the future like what happened with Jack Smith going after McDonnell. That team is filled with prosecutors that have been admonished by courts for abuses. But they don't care if they get reprimanded later to get what they want now.
They'll wait for lunch to roll around on that given day then deliver the verdict
Trump was pursing investigations into elections as late as Jan 4th and after, urging states to look into voting irregularities and fraudulent votes. This is 2 days before Jan 6th. It is outlined in a memo that Jack Smith was given, but ignored. All concurrent evidence is that Trump still believed the election was corrupted with fraudulent votes. But Smiths indictments require Trump to knowingly make false statements.
Memo is here:
https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/all-things-trump/kerik-memos-prosecutors-show-trump-team-still-probing-election
Weird Sullum ignored this key evidence.
Jack Smith is going with a theory that the government is arbiter of the truth. Half the country still believe there was fraud in 2020. Which we know there was from indictments, just the amount remains unknown. We know the districts that kept the 2020 procedures into 2022 had similar results as 2020 while those areas that reverted to pre 2020 voting procedures tended to mimic closer to 2016.
I believe Jack Smith is actually using the FYTW theory here.
It's his MO as a prosecutor.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/justice/special-counsel-jack-smith-mixed-history-pursuing-politicians
During his years as chief, Smith’s unit garnered a successful conviction against former Gov. Bob McDonnell (R-VA), which was later unanimously overturned by the Supreme Court, and pursued a case against Democratic vice presidential candidate and former Sen. John Edwards (D-NC), which resulted in a hung jury and a mistrial. Smith's team also secured a conviction against Rep. Rick Renzi (R-AZ) before he was pardoned by Trump in 2021 and laid the groundwork for what would become the unsuccessful prosecution of Sen. Bob Menendez (D-NJ).
Not just Smith but half of his team. His deputy was rebuked by judges as well. Dream team of people rebuked by courts for misconduct.
Trump is clearly mentally ill, as are his MAGAt supporters.
Shouldn't there be a more serious penalty for repeated bad, politically motivated prosecutions? Conspiracy to overturn an election comes to mind for some of these.
FYTW shall be the whole of the law.
Jack Smith is going by the fact that the people Trump relied on day-to-day for genuine counsel were dismissed by him when it was more convenient to listen to Cowboy John and the Krakenlady. And now both of them are about to lose their law licenses for the same nonsense. KrakenLady Powell, herself, claimed in court when facing defamation, that no reasonable person would believe that her election fraud claims would be accepted as actual fact.
The bulk of the evidence provided in the indictment (you should really read it, or listen to it if it's too hard to get through) is from all kinds of people in Trump's close orbit- not some nebulous "Government"- who told him over and over and over that it was nonsense. Trump telling Pence, You're too honest" when presented with the same news from his VP is particularly damning. To use a common legal term, he is royally fucked.
He is going on the basis that he can determine trumps state of mind while ignoring evidence as linked above.
Man you guys are ignorant to the law and reality.
Short of Trump saying on tape "I know we lost, but let's keep pushing the envelope," this is a non-issue. One cannot know another's mind unless there are physical acts that can only support one version of what's in that person's mind.
The same people who brought us the bat soup theory.
Any actual proof on the election fraud? Second hand stories and coincidences and theories are not sufficient.. What indictments do you think prove anything? Trials are where things are actually proven.
Yes. Convictions occurred. Trials determined elections were done with illegal processes. Other issues were documented but not investigated by the states.
Is there any proof Hugo Chavez cheats elections? Iran? Iraq? Lol.
Basically you are arguing no fraud if a party controls the AG and means to an election if they refuse to investigate. Good system there.
Just because a state has a dispute about the process of election procedure, does not mean the results of that election are fraudulent. That is a logical fallacy.
It isnt a dispute Mr not a liberal. They are laws regarding an election.
Does a murderer just dispute who has a right to live? Lol.
That is a logical fallacy.
Yes, Chip, your refutation is a logical fallacy. Care to guess which one?
Ignorance isn’t technically a fallacy. Appeal to ignorance is one though.
I had reasoned the fallacy of axiomatic thinking--Chip is just making shit up.
If you think any of this is about what actions were made or not made, you're out of your mind.
It doesnt matter what he did, thought, or said. No matter what he was getting charged with something. If you dont understand that you are not gonna make it.
Of course it does. He broke federal law, therefore he deserves life in prison or worse.
Funny how the "rule of law" right is terrified that Trump may be punished for a crime that he committed.
Too good of a parody lol.
And it has to be, since I have the real one muted. I'll tell you, it was jarring as hell seeing that, though. 😀
Lol. I got scared the first time also. But I do umute to post his past statements.
Mush of this hinges on what Trump said to various people. He was under no obligation to listen to any of the advisors saying he lost - after all, these advisors were hardly dispensing reliable information during their time in the administration.
The government's case is well into criminalizing speech territory. Add in prosecutorial misconduct, such as the attempt to bribe Walt Nauta's attorney and the revelation earlier today that the Smith team admitted to the court that they had "accidentally" withheld evidence from the defense during their Brady disclosure, and you have a signature Jack Smith failure going on here.
Not just criminalizing speech but thought as their case relies on what Trump believed.
I did not post that comment. Someone is socking me.
You can tell that I did not post that comment because if you mute the above user, this comment will not also be muted.
Your argument may be true, but it doesn't take away at all from the fact that they will have an easy time proving mens rea. "They" (whoever you think "They" are) may have accused him of bullshit at some point, and "They" might have charged him with something even *if* they didn't have so much goddamned evidence. But they do.
Please cite the evidence.
There is an indictment alleging specific crimes. I don't know how it could be any more clear.
So the claim is made, therefore Trump is guilty?
Fuck off and die, asshole.
No, he is presumed innocent until proven guilty. That's how criminal trials work.
So you can cite the specific evidence, yet didnt.
There is an entire indictment available to read. If you can't or won't read it, you can listen to it. There are *numerous* specific allegations. It's not my job to Do Your Own Research for you.
I will say that one of the more damning allegations is a quote where, after VP Pence told him in person that he did not have Constitutional authority to throw out legitimate votes. Trump is alleged to have said to him, "You're too honest, Mike."
So still no specific evidence. Weird how you can't provide it.
Trumpie is going to prison.
So are his MAGAt friends.
An indictment is merely the accusation. It is neither proof or evidence.
Close. It is an accusation based on evidence that investigators have collected.
So cite the evidence. Why are you so hesitant?
The squeeling of Insane MAGAt pigs like JesseAz bring joy to God's heart.
“Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime.”
So no indictment has any value whatsoever?
Not in a corrupt system.
Show me Donald Drumpf and you will show me a repeat rapist.
Stupid Reason is basing the entire article on the premise that there was no widespread fraud and rigged voting machines, and that Trump was wrong about everything. That's the leftist narrative pushed by leftists in the leftist press to protect leftist fraudsters and leftist politicians.
The correct premise for the article is that Trump was correct about everything. From there it follows that he is innocent of all charges, that all the charges are political in nature, and that he should be in the White House right now.
So by going with the leftist narrative that Trump was wrong, you shall now feel the wrath of the commentariat.
Release the Kraken!
Cleanest election ever. Ignore the illegal voting procedure changes. Ignore every benchmark being violated against results. Trust in institutions blindly. - the one true libertarian.
Doesn't Jackass Smith have to prove that the election wasn't stolen, before he can make the claim that Trump knew it wasn't.
The defense should challenge him to.
I mean, if Trump's statements were criminal, that the election was stolen, if it wasn't fraudulent, (I know, it's not criminal, but bear with me) then it would seem that the prosecution would have to prove that those statements were not true, by proving that the election was as clean as a whistle.
Ol' Jackass may have put himself in a circular logic impossibility.
I hope discovery is a right royal bitch for Jack Smith that bites him hard in the ass.
One of two things is going to happen: they drag this out long enough that they run into next October and then spring the proverbial trap, when it’s too late for the Republicans to put someone else on the ballot, OR the judge pulls some hinky bullshit (which our erstwhile posters will lap up or completely ignore the significance of) that basically shoots the defenses dick off.
All the sane people here will talk about how fucked whichever one that happens is and all the “totally not partisan, but fuck if we only shit on one side” assholes will gleefully lap up whatever narrative gets spoon fed to them, while accusing anyone that disagrees of being a Trump cultist (completely ignoring the bevy of posters who talk about their dislike of Trump but still manage to reach the conclusion that this is some banana republic shit.)
He doesn't have to prove shit. A DC jury will rubber stamp whatever he alleges.
Whether the election was stolen has no bearing on the indictment. He has to prove trump believed the election was not stolen but persisted with the narrative anyways.
But Smith did admit to limited fraud in the indictment which is hilarious.
Very limited fraud can throw an election. Joe Kennedy gave the election to JFK by fixing the election in just a few precincts in Chicago and Charleston, WV.
I don't think anyone has ever alleged that there was no fraud whatsoever. As a matter of fact, the ultraconservative Heritage Foundation keeps a running tally of instances. They are up to 1438 cases total. In the 2020 election there were 469 incidents proven. It doesn't say how many illegal votes went to Biden and how many were for Trump. If we assume they ALL went Biden's way (and the reality is that vast majority were for Trump), it's a whopping 0.15% of Biden's margin of victory.
Cleanest. Election. Ever.
It’s so clean you can’t even question it.
Sure you can question it. As the indictment mentions (and you should really read it- or listen to it if you can't/ won't read it), This is not about Trump's right to free speech. He is welcome to any opinion. It his his right to voice his opinion. It's even his right to lie about it. But when lies are used specifically for the purpose on committing a crime or causing others to commit a crime it becomes illegal. Otherwise there would be no such thing as fraud. I realize it might be difficult to grasp the concept, but that what courts are for.
In this very chat thread you see people claiming there is no fraud, yet you make that assertion. Weird.
I mean just a few posts down.
Chip D 5 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Please stop using the beloved mascot of the Seattle NHL franchise in your reality absent rant. Not one court or proceeding has found proof of fraud in the 2020 election. Many of those judges were Republican and Trump appointed.
Weird. Do you lie about everything?
The Kraken is indisposed , as it is still trying to digest Trump's first lawyer, Roy Cohen.
Please stop using the beloved mascot of the Seattle NHL franchise in your reality absent rant. Not one court or proceeding has found proof of fraud in the 2020 election. Many of those judges were Republican and Trump appointed.
Do you get paid by the false assertion?
"Stupid Reason". That's gold all by itself.
I get that you want there to have been isgnificant fraud and rigged voting machines. But at a certain point (and that point was sometime around November 10th, 2021 for most thinking folks), there has to be evidence for it. Logically speaking, a negative cannot be proven. Just because I wasn't murdered in my sleep by a closet monster last night does not mean there is no closet monster planning to kill me tonight. But if I am going to behave as though there is a closet monster, I need to see *some* kind of evidence. Scat, hair, odor...something. People could not function if every remote possibility was treated as certain. You certainly wouldn't ever cross a busy street- even with a crosswalk and stoplights. Cars might not stop... A closet monster might be out for a drive looking for me. It gets absurd quickly. And the notion of a stolen election, despite Trump telegraphing his intent to allege fraud if he lost, got absurd very quickly. Lawsuits, recounts, recounts of recounts, audits, FRAUDits... the list goes on and on. Remarkable claims require remarkable evidence. And simply alleging something over and over and over is still not, and never will be evidence.
As long as there is never an investigation there is no crime since no evidence is gathered. Do you get your theories of crime and law from all the blue states that don’t report murders if a detective isn’t assigned?
Do you know who is legally allowed to find evidence? Hint Garland is going after a Michigan group who was trying to investigate the elections.
If you need to believe there was never an investigation, if you need to ignore that Cyber Ninjas audit actually showed Biden's margin to be *larger* than the official count showed, you are so steeped in bullshit that no one can help you.
Yeah, Biden is definitely the most popular president ever.
Points to one audit claims everywhere is an audit.
Talk about dishonesty. Lol.
Did you read the CN report? It stated many avenues for fraudulent votes. Maricopa also didn't give them full access to all the equipment or access to all officials. They basically did a glorified recount.
Odd you picked arizona though. Did you see the "signature matching" presented in the legislature then see Hobbs threatening to go after anyone who posts the signatures from a public meeting on social media? Good way to "prove" your point lol. Did you listen to to the signature matching expert and the fact that some of the verifiers had 100% matching with an average if under 4 seconds a match?
Special counsel Jack Smith’s team admitted to incorrectly claiming to have turned over evidence as required by law in the classified documents case against former President Donald Trump.
https://justthenews.com/government/courts-law/jack-smiths-team-admits-incorrect-claim-about-evidence-trump-classified
By his own rules Jack Smith is guilty of obstruction and perjury.
Prosectors fail to turn over documents while prosecuting Trump for failing to turn over documents. They are rubbing your nose in it.
Yeah. A fun bit of hypocrisy there.
Donald Drumpf is the most corrupt president in American history.
Soon he will be running for office from a prison cell.
The world is laughing at Clown Car American Republicans.
Trump has nothing on Biden.
I've actually never heard (or read) anything Trump said about election fraud. It was obvious to me when all the Democrats simultaneously announced they were changing the rules of the election two months before it happened. Before that I'd been wondering how, after the last four years and with the Democrats making the COVID-19 tyranny into a partisan issue, they though they could possibly win. As soon as they announced that they were changing the election rules, I thought, "Oh, that's how."
And of course we shouldn't forget that Time Magazine actually ran an article by a Democratic Party propagandist a few weeks after Biden was safely inaugurated bragging about how the election was rigged.
This one? It’s a sordid tale of how the 2020 election was taken. They essentially let the cat out of the bag and admit they stole the election.
https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/
There was a conspiracy unfolding behind the scenes, one that both curtailed the protests and coordinated the resistance from CEOs. Both surprises were the result of an informal alliance between left-wing activists and business titans. The pact was formalized in a terse, little-noticed joint statement of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and AFL-CIO published on Election Day.
Their work touched every aspect of the election. They got states to change voting systems and laws and helped secure hundreds of millions in public and private funding. They fended off voter-suppression lawsuits, recruited armies of poll workers and got millions of people to vote by mail for the first time.
Election night began with many Democrats despairing. Trump was running ahead of pre-election polling, winning Florida, Ohio and Texas easily and keeping Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania too close to call. But Podhorzer was unperturbed when I spoke to him that night: the returns were exactly in line with his modeling. He had been warning for weeks that Trump voters’ turnout was surging. As the numbers dribbled out, he could tell that as long as all the votes were counted, Trump would lose.
While he was talking, Fox News surprised everyone by calling Arizona for Biden. The public-awareness campaign had worked: TV anchors were bending over backward to counsel caution and frame the vote count accurately. The question then became what to do next.
The article self described as : "a well-funded cabal of powerful people, ranging across industries and ideologies, working together behind the scenes to influence perceptions, change rules and laws, steer media coverage and control the flow of information."
That one?
Something that Trump and his people saw unfolding, which led them to predict the theft of the election. A prediction that is being used by the thieves as proof that Trump's people were planning all along, to challenge the results.
it is just like Republicans closing voting poll stations all over a state to limit voting by democrats. Pretty shady.
Hey it is another liberal lie pushed by democrats for not a liberal. Number of polling stations is determined by local election officials, whom were democrats in the story you offer up. One would think not a liberal would be more questioning of liberal narratives.
States do not shut down election polling stations. The local election commissions run that.
Thoughtcrime.
That's the entirety of the case here. Thoughtcrime.
And Reason, the ostensibly libertarian rag, is happy to prosecute.
The new standard. Also used in the PB conviction over J6.
He's super guilty of the crime of Being Donald Trump, and by God, they're going to charge him with it!
More like actual crime. Read the indictment.
"show me the man and I'll show you the crime"
"for my friends, everything. For my enemies, the law"
Actual crime is selling a VP's influence and taking bribes from foreign entities like Joe and Hunter Biden have.
The indictment predicated on Trump knowingly making false statements regarding the election? Did you actually read it? Even sullum understood the basis.
Trump's defenders have not read the indictment. It is damning.
This is strange since you and the other act blue account seemingly missed the predicate that even Sullum picked up on.
The indictment is retarded.
Conspiracy, and an attempt, to obstruct a government function?
Conspiracy requires a criminal act, in furtherance of the scheme - or else it is just people exercising their right of free speech.
How can asking the crowd to "peacefully, and patriotically go to the Capitol and have their voices heard", (a definition of assembling to petition the government for a redress of grievances) be called a criminal attempt to obstruct the proceeding?
Unless they can show that something else was done, by Trump, or his co-conspirators, to get the crowd to enter the building, he did not commit either the crime or the underlying conspiracy.
There's at least one, debunked.
The rest follow on that one's round-heels.
You are correct on that 1 charge, but the others, especially contacting state election officials to pressure them to find him votes is a crime if he knew that his allegations of fraud were false. If he knew, he is a criminal, if he did not, then he is too stupid to be president. I am ok with either.
The Ga transcript is public and easy to find. Take a couple of minutes to read it for yourself and stop relying on MSNBC.
Contacting the official and telling him to find votes, if he knew his theories were not true is a crime. It is that simple. If he thought they were true, then he is just stupid.
So you can't be bothered to read the transcript and prefer repeating false assertions Mr not a liberal?
The Georgia phone call is Trump asking Brad R to find votes he contended were not previously counted. There were numerous people on the phone call and no one thought Trump was asking him to manufacture fake votes.
wrong. saying words is not a crime.
Get doxed
Regulate "hate speech". "Misgender" someone and you are a Nazi. Refuse to violate grammar rules of singular versus plural and you are a white nationalist. Open your mouth and say something "wrong", go to jail.
Seems antithetical to a free country, and to American traditions and legal history. Half the country is cheering it on. We are screwed. Our kids and grandkids are screwed worse.
"Did Trump really believe..."
That is the basis for a criminal charge and indictment? Half the country are "deplorable". We are gonna need a LOT more prison cells.
Or lots of Zyklon B.
Imagine if most of the Jews in Germany had guns.
Imagine if most Americans with guns had balls.
>>There is a very good reason why that characterization is sprinkled throughout the indictment:
because they're likely true.
The funny thing is Jack Smith had to admit there was election fraud in the indictment because if he didn't Trump's team would have only produced a single example to undo the charges.
rock and a hard place but he could also be golfing today instead of burning the law to the ground. his choice.
Fair-minded jurors are apt to have similar doubts.
But that's not who will be on the jury. The DC jury will vote to convict, no matter what evidence and reasoning is presented.
I have a single question for you -
Have you read the indictment?
Yes. And from your posts you have not. Weird attack there.
Fair-minded jurors in D.C.? That's rich. Half the country hates the man. In the District of Columbia that figure is closer to 98%.
Is there anyone who actually believes we had a fair and honest election in 2020?
I mean, I'm sure there's someone out there that does...
I mean, other than Sullum.
Most of Trumps advisors and staff in the WH. Bill Barr, Brad Raffensperger, Russell Bowers, and numerous others. Trump's family members. Plenty of people.
I doubt that.
Some of them are going to testify under oath.
Some of them are going to
testifycommit perjury under oath.FIFY.
It's only perjury if you get charged with it...and they all know how unlikely that will be.
We've seen from the Cater Page fiasco that the DOJ will compel you to commit perjury if they have too. Luckly it didn't work with Page.
So, God will force them to tell the truth about their private thoughts?
Pluggo, Jeffy, Tony, et.al.?
Well, I voted for Jorgensen. She probably got about as many votes as they said she did, those last minute rule changes probably didn’t hurt her a whole lot, and un-counting all the alleged midnight extra ballot boxes wouldn't have put her over the top.
So fair enough from my point of view. Supporters of other candidates might feel differently.
I mean, there's no evidence indicating widespread fraud or fraud sufficient to change the outcome of the election. The claim that 2020 was one of the most secure elections in history is unrelated to the outcome and his wholly based in the fact that we've been conducting elections in this country for 200+ years and at this point, we're aware of all the various points at which results-altering fraud is even possible.
I feel like you heard the "the election was corrupt!" narrative and accepted that without further question.
If you have specific allegations of widespread fraud, lay 'em out. Let's hear 'em.
Giuliani already admitted in early 2020 under oath before a judge that there wasn't any fraud.
Early 2020?
He was testifying about future events under oath?
Guiliani is a time traveling alien. Just as believable as all the other blueanon nonsense.
Lol. They’re not sending their best.
No he didn't. Youre misrepresenting his statement on one claim about Ga.
Lies are what your ilk live on.
I can believe I can fly but it doesn't make it true.
You also believe Giuliani can time travel so nobody gives a shit what you believe.
Congressman Byron Donalds
@RepDonaldsPress
The pattern of events surrounding our investigation into the Bidens can't be a coincidence:
3/17 - Hunter admits laptop is his
3/18 - Notice of 1st Trump indictment
6/8 - FBI doc on $5M Biden bribe drops
6/9 - Mar-A-Lago Indictment
7/31 - Archer testifies
8/1 - 1/6 Indictment
The Republican-led House Oversight Committee found no wrongdoing.
Are you saying they're wrong?
Cite?
What the hell are you trying to say here? No wrongdoing regarding what?
Act Blue sends their worst to this site.
That's because this site has almost no influence.
You are going to give Sullum a sad.
Can the defense claim that the former President actually believed that there was election fraud without implying he was delusional? Jurors may believe that the former President thought he had won but convict him because they think he is insane. They could declare him guilty by reason of mental defect.
Your unbiased moderate folks!
It has nothing to do with political persuasion and everything to do with having a coherent ethical framework and coherent worldview.
I wish modern GOP supporters understood how absolutely childish this sort of thinking is. And how absolutely disrespectful it is to our shared discourse and shared foundation to act like you're somehow taking a moral position by defending Trump's reckless, clumsy criminal scheme.
Cite, on the "criminal scheme"?
"Has nothing to do with political persuasion, let me rant about conservatives." LOL.
Funny how exactly zero of your posts have to do with legal construction and simply push the lefts narratives as the important "truths."
I agree..heeither knew better and wasn't insane, or he's insane and believed it. He can't just pick parts of either defense.
Is this the new Act Blue thing, to create usernames pretending to be from various states?
Gotta be. MD must stand for "Meridian Dipshit".
I bet it’s all AI
Of 19 bellwether counties, that have voted for the winning candidate for 20 years – Republican or Democrat – 18 went for Trump. Winning candidates -Republican and Democrat – have reliably taken Florida, Ohio and Idaho – Biden didn’t. Barack 0bama in his first, and most popular, election won 873 counties, with 69 million votes. Donald Trump, in 2020, won 2479 counties, with 74 million votes. And we’re expected to believe Joe Biden got 12 million more votes than 0bama, while winning only 477 counties? That, alone is enough to make one a disbeliever, and hardly proof of delusion. And there’s a LOT more.
You are putting up numbers that have no real meaning. Elections trends are changing, and the rules of the past do not determine the future. In 1984 President Ronald Reagan won 49 states, that is unlikely to happen today. That doesn't mean that something is wrong when a candidate does win that many states. Counties means nothing because what counts is the population. Trump won Trempealeau County, Wisconsin in 2020 but the county has a population less than one half of one percent of the Wisconsin population.
Yes. Democrats are pushing for unaccountable voting that makes it easier to cheat. Elections are definitely changing. They even sued Florida for required last 4 of a social or DL on ballot envelopes.
... why didn't the Democrats just rig those bellwether counties?
If we're going to assume the existence of a national, or perhaps global, conspiracy, it seems like they could have flipped Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan to Hillary.
Why'd they let Trump win the first place?
I doubt the defense will even go to that point. My bet is the defense will do more to show how intent wasn't proved by the prosecution rather than trying to affirmatively demonstrate that Trump believed the convoluted claims he was making.
And that's where the prosecution will have a difficult time, as proving Trump's intent on anything is a fairly Herculean task.
Moreover, it does appear that Trump was quite willing to believe things that he wanted to be true. I mean, no one has come out and said that Trump secretly didn't believe what he was asserting. Other than funneling donation money raised for court expenses to challenge the election results to pay off campaign debt, no one has really presented any information showing that Trump didn't actually believe what he was saying.
Trump has had 2 1/2 years to show us evidence of election fraud. So far, nothing. Why does he still maintain that he won the election in a massive landslide? And that there was massive voter fraud? Because he uses that lie to get people to send him MONEY. No delusion or insanity needed just recognize that Trump did all of this to grift a buck. I get 3 or 4 emails every day from the Trump campaign asking for $$$. Every fantasy possible is used to tug at my cold heart and credit card.
People have been convicted for 2020 election fraud yet you claim there was none. Weird. At least get your talking point correct about it being widespread fraud.
I'm certain that he really believed it, and the fact that he's so delusional as to believe it disqualifies him from holding further office.
except he was right, the election was totally rigged. if you can't see that then there is no hope for you.
The intellectual dishonesty required to sincerely state "After covering Trump's election claims since November 2020, I'm still not sure. " is absolutely staggering.
Jacob Sullum - how can anyone respect you and your ideas when you don't respect those things yourself? That's the thing I struggle with the most trying to understand the modern GOP. They hitched their wagons to a man that clearly has no principles and can't even pay lip service to the foundational principles of conservatism.
The power of ego is astounding, to say the least.
As late as 1938 people didn't believe what Mussolini and Hitler were really about.
As late as 1952 people didn't believe what Stalin was really about.
As late as 2023 the liberals were claiming socialist parties with socialist platforms from the 30s were really Republicans.
As late as Aug 2023, people still belive that Trump colluded with Russia and the Muller report proved it.
So, do you think this should also apply to her?
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/hillary-clinton-is-an-election-denier
"I know we’re all focused on the 2022 midterm elections, and they are incredibly important," she told supporters on Twitter this week. "But we also have to look ahead because, you know what, our opponents certainly are. Right-wing extremists already have a plan to literally steal the next presidential election, and they’re not making a secret of it."
What do you struggle with the most with the modern Democrat party? Or do you struggle with modern politics in general, but only because everyone won't agree with the left and that's so terrible and unfair?
Sullum isn’t a Republican and his not fully buying into your preferred narrative doesn’t make him one.
Goddamn, leftist are fucking retarded.
Unless they can find something where Trump tried to declare martial law to keep himself in power, the evidence so far is pretty flimsy.
If conspiring to interfere with voting is a thing, then I should report the local democrats who hand me pre-marked ballots outside the polls at every election.
A defendant's subjective belief does not override the jury's conclusion that he did know that he lost. Thus, even if Trump believed he won, a reasonable jury can conclude that he did know that he lost and he is simply lying.
If the defense wants to claim Trump had a good faith belief that he had won, it would have explain how he could have such a belief. Relying on people who he knew would say anything he wanted so that he could stay in office does not provide a defense of a good faith belief. In fact, he expressly told Mike Pence that he was "too honest" when Pence said he did not have the constitutional power to disregard the states' votes.
In order to Trump to have a good faith belief that he won, he would have to be delusional, which would require a defense of insanity. However, a defense of insanity does not override the actions which he took. One cannot rob a Wells Fargo bank and insist he did not have criminal state of mind since he owns Wells Fargo. In order for that belief to result in a not guilty verdict, the defendant has to assert an insanity defense that he was too mentally ill to know the difference between right and wrong. Trump will not assert that defense.
So thought crime.
John Hinckley was guilty of a thought crime?
And how does this play into the subject at hand, troll?
Jodie Foster's Army
suspecting election shenanigans is practically a national pasttime.
Many elections have been fraudulently decided.
Why is it suddenly some kind of major moral failing to have suspicions about the 2020 presidential election outcome?
Almost no elections in the US have been wrongfully decided. Ever.
Ever? You've never been to Chicago, have you?
He said wrongly decided. Not incorrectly decided. Ie of his team cheats and wins it is still the right decision.
Because "Too much of what is happening in our country today is not normal."
In every election, in this century, won by a Republican, it has been claimed to have been stolen, by the LieCheatSteal party.
EVERY ONE!
Here's 12 minutes of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX2Ejqjz6TA
I don't care about any of the charges related to January 6th or his free speech rights. Those charges are pretty weak. On the other hand, contacting state election officials and attempting to coerce them into "finding" or manufacturing votes is not acceptable. If he knew his claims were false, then it is a crime, if he actually believed the nonsense, then he is just engaging in intellectually bankrupt behavior. He is either stupid or a criminal...take your pick.
You know the Ga call transcript is public and easy to find right? He never talked about manufacturing votes. The first half of the call is discussing votes his team found that violated current Ga election laws and the find the votes was in reference to those illegal votes.
The call takes 2 minutes to read but you have no interest in being informed.
You would need evidence Trump said something to the effect of, “I’ll have this underage girl say you had sex with her if you don’t help me” or some such.
If the Fulton County D.A. is following a lead that Trump may have attempted bribery or extortion with respect to state election officials, this means that he is running a very tight ship. No media outlet is even suggesting that Trump is under investigation for those crimes, which have a clear definition.
Merely asking to find more votes is protected by the First Amendment.
How can Trump win Georgia without enfranchising the Kraken?
What do y’all think about this idea circulating that 18 USC 241 (Conspiracy Against Rights) carries the death penalty “if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse…”
Ashley Babbit could be counted – after all, Trump’s actions forced them shoot her. Or as a backup, that guy that borrowed the cop’s zip-ties could be evidence of attempt to kidnap. And finally, AOC has said she feared being raped, which sure sounds like attempted sexual abuse.
And there's all the people who died as a result of irrational government responses to COVID.
Thanks for reminding me. Huge number of unmasked people if that crowd, must have resulted in someone getting a fatal case of the rona.
Add up Babbit, Tie wraps, AOC trembling in fear, and let's just say a couple dozen Covid deaths. Sounds like they could get him like 30 death sentences.
Ashley Babbitt was walking next to a man in a suit and tie, and followed, one step behind, by two Capital Security police in Uniform. She definitely was NOT attacking the guy who shot her in the neck, as the video perfectly shows she was not wishing 20 feet of the murderous, trigger happy, cop. Murdered in cold blood.
Please link to this video you have.
Here’s one I have where she is right next to rioters breaking windows and is close to the police officer with the gun (and there is plenty of warning to all of them the gun is pointed at them, but they keep breaking the windows):
https://www.nbcnews.com/video/capitol-shooting-that-led-to-ashli-babbitt-s-death-captured-on-video-99180613572
There is a goddamn locked door between the shooter and Ashley Babbit. There is a man in a suit standing next to her. There are five or six armed Capital Police standing right behind her. They even draw their own assault weapons when fired upon. The man in the suit drops down to help Ashley.
The shooter was in no way in danger of anything. He just pissed his pants and started pulling the trigger.
Look at the damn video, moron! Look down the hallway behind the shooter. Two guys in suits casually walking around, seeming not to notice or care that the door glass was being broken. None of this makes any sense. Why didn’t this cop shoot the two assholes who were bashing the glass. Ashley wasn’t. Why did the capital police on the outside of the door stand there?
Why are you calling out that there is a locked door when we can clearly see her fellow rioters breaking windows? Of course the door is locked — that’s why they are resorting to breaking the windows.
So you’d be happier if the cops behind her shot her, instead of the one behind the windows that she and her fellow rioters are breaking?
You’d be happier if they shot one of the other rioters engaged in a criminal and traitorous act? No, you’d be complaining about the other rioter being an innocent victim.
Did you notice in the video that the gun is pointed at them for quite a long time, and they idiotically and criminally continue breaking the windows?
“So you’d be happier if the cops behind her shot her, instead of the one behind the windows that she and her fellow rioters are breaking?”
FYI Hosers2, this is typical dishonest bullshit from Mike Liarson, in case you were considering trying to have an honest discussion with him.
I agree, and it doesn’t matter. The argument would be similar to that for felony murder: You were involved in a felony, and someone got killed. Doesn’t matter if the murder was done by someone on the “their” side and the dead person was on "your" side.
By the way, her name is Ashli, not Ashley. And she’s not “walking”.
And it is spelled “Capitol”.
Of course she wasn’t attacking the police officer, per se. She was at the front of a rioting mob attempting to break into the Speaker’s Lobby with apparent intent to harm the Vice President, members of Congress, staff and guests. And those officers had no idea if those rioters were armed or not.
Cops should shoot first, then assess the threat.
— Mike Liarson, a true libertarian
"a group of crank lawyers"
Trump will have to testify himself to try to pull off that defense. And then he will be cross examined. And he will certainly commit perjury as he is incapable of telling the truth.
Sullen; Using the word “False” is the mantra of the liberal press. Used thousands upon thousands of times over the past six years. “Falsely claimed” is the regurgitated b.s. guys like you use to make yourself superior.
Of course Trump thinks the election was rigged. Half of the US population knows it was rigged. If liberal politicians were actually honest, even THEY would admit the election was dishonest.
We saw what we saw. Heard what we heard. Falsely claiming it wasn’t rigged is what YOU do.
You are the Trump defense team’s ideal juror!
This text doesn't even mention the elephant: the voting system was changed in a few critical states, right before the election, without legislature approval. Meaning: illegally.
The Universal mail in voting was forced on American society through the decisions of a few state secretaries – which could be achieved with corruption, at a very reasonable cost.
That system is indefensible in terms of election integrity.
Sending ballots to everyone, no matter if they asked, no matter if they intend to vote, no matter if we know their address, is the opposite of election integrity.
For that reason it does not exist in any free country.
Needless to say, I also have no doubt that the election was rigged.
Trump believed the election was stolen at the time.
Trump believed the election was stolen after the election.
Trump believes the election was stolen today
We don’t know, as there has never been a real investigation.
But this is not really about Trump, but about Democratic Governor Dictators
I don’t care what position, I don’t care if you ran unopposed,
I don’t care if you won as a write in, the election was illegal.
My states Constitution requires the legislatures approval to change any election laws. The executive (governor dictator) changed the laws without the legislatures approval, therefore the election was illegal by state Constitution and law and should not have been certified.
But either you believe in the rule or law, or you don’t, you believe executive officers in states are dictators.
I believe in the rule of law. It would seem Reason.com does not.
Exactly. It is flabbergasting how unanimous is the silence on that subject.
This article demonstrates how much the consensus hates looking in that direction. It mentions 'some combination of illegal ballots and deliberately corrupted voting machines' but not the big elephant.
Universal mail in voting is invisible!
It was 'temporary' but it'll stay.
I wonder, what history says about not leaving citizens with any peaceful option.
exactly right and this happened in several key states. trump is totally right that the election was rigged.
Man, we got a whole new raft of TDS-addled steaming piles of shit this afternoon!
is free speech dead? will they actually convict him for what he said? i truly don't recognize this country any more.
Doesn't matter whether he believed it or not. He's allowed to say it either way, just like the Democrats did when they were sniveling over Gore losing Florida to Bush.
Go check out Dershowitz's vivisection of this idiotic indictment, he just posted it on Rumble.
-jcr
^^^ THIS 1000%. speaking words is not a crime
The question is not whether a reasonable person would have believed that some combination of illegal ballots and deliberately corrupted voting machines had changed the election outcome, because the defendant is not reasonable. He is a man who cannot stand to admit defeat and who has a long history of listening to advisers who tell him what he wants to hear. Given these traits, it is plausible that he would latch onto any claim, no matter how absurd or unsubstantiated, that helped him deny the reality that voters had rejected him.
This 100%. It is why he is innocent of those charges. And why he should never be elected again.
I'm actually amazed that Smith brought such charges knowing that he will have to prove intent. For better or worse, Trump does have one great ability, and that's the ability for no one to know what the hell he actually thinks or believes.
I mean, it will be hard to prove the intent of a person who is completely incapable of forming consistent and truthful positions and who comes off as markedly deluded with almost every comment he makes.
I gave this example below.
Suppose someone is being tried for some crime. And there is a third person, who not only believes the suspect is guilty/innocent, but has actual firsthand knowledge of the suspect’s guilt/innocence.
This actual knowledge does not and can not legally justify or excuse this person engaging in bribery or witness tampering or jury tampering. “I know he’s guilty/innocent and can prove it” is no defense, not under our longstanding legal precedents.
"All of the charges—which include conspiring to defraud the United States, conspiring to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiring to deprive Americans of their voting rights—depend on the assumption that Trump did not really think he had won reelection."
This is false. The charge regarding the fake elector scheme in no way depends on such a state of mind.
You are wrong. If he actually believes his claims, and he does, EVERYTHING he is accused of doing is in SUPPORT of a fair election.
I'm speaking as an attorney. You're speaking as a?
To my observation, Trump's version of reality is transactional -- he says whatever he thinks will persuade others to do his bidding or accomplish his goals. He doesn't care about the the truth. That said, indifference to the truth is not the same as being incapable of knowing the truth. There's no insanity defense here.
and none of that is a crime
It's long past time to get mostly peaceful.
Nearly three years after Trump began complaining about "a major fraud" that supposedly had delivered a phony victory to Joe Biden, however, it remains unclear whether he honestly believed the nonsense he was spouting. The indictment itself includes evidence pointing in both directions.
Actually, it remains clear he STILL believes his claims. What remains unclear is it they are nonsense. The indictment contains ZERO evidence he doesn't believe his claims, because no such evidence exists. It is indisputable that he believed, and still believes his claims.
Everyone with an IQ above that of a small potted plant knows that it was stolen.
Many just won't admit it.
sadly too many people have an iq less than the potted plant. by definition the average iq is 100. that means that many have a 2 digit iq and i suspect that is where the leftist lie.
When did Reason get taken over by Trumpists? Sad.
The columnists are far from Trumpists.
When did people pretending to be libertarian start blindly accepting government narratives and cheer political prosecutions?
Get beheaded
I have criticized, on comments on other posts, this indictment as not alleging acts that actually constitute crimes.
Now here is something.
Suppose someone is being tried for some crime. And there is a third person, who not only believes the susopect is guilty/innocent, but has actual firsthand knowledge of the suspect’s guilt/innocence.
This actual knowledge does not and can not legally justify or excuse this person engaging in bribery or witness tampering or jury tampering. “I know he’s guilty/innocent and can prove it” is no defense, not under our longstanding legal precedents.
So, if Trump is alleged to have actually engaged in an overt act that clearly and plainly obstructs an official proceeding (which saying that the 2020 election was stolen clearly does not) , an honest belief that the election was stolen would not be a defense.
Now here is Glenn Greenwald.
https://rumble.com/v345ij1-system-update-123.html Indictment is discussed starting at 18:30.
Never go full Greenwald!
Why?
If you’ve read Jacob’s post thoroughly, and perhaps re-read it as well, you’ll have to acknowledge some things. First, Jacob notes that Trump is not a reasonable person. Second, Jacob notes that Trump is not a rational person. Third, Jacob notes that Trump’s defense may depend in part on demonstrating that he was/is delusional rather than deceitful. All true, yes? Then why are the DOJ and Trump’s current flock of lawyers having to jiggle and juggle things to take the 2024 election into account? Why is an unreasonable, irrational, deceitful/delusional man still, against all reason, an apparently viable presidential candidate?
Jacob, I have a lot of respect for you, your work, and the work of all your colleagues here a Reason.com. I do. But I would ask that you and all your colleagues jointly sign and post a message saying roughly the following: “Donald Trump may or may not be found guilty by juries of his peers of the state and federal crimes of which he stands accused, even though his mental state and faculties have been shown repeatedly to be disordered, unstable, and unreliable. So we feel now that we must recognize and state for the record our view that he is not and never was qualified to be the President.”
You all could tweak a statement like that to properly and accurately reflect folks’ opinions and writing styles. Would it really be impossible to take a stand and put your finished statement out there?
“Why is an unreasonable, irrational, deceitful/delusional man still an apparently viable presidential candidate?”
That is a question that should be asked of the 20% or so of American voters who are faithful Trump supporters. Why would Reason answer that question for them?
I guess you can ask for a written statement, but Reason staff clearly don’t consider Trump a fit candidate for President. They are rational people, after all.
https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1686720247208751104?t=gmveKnzJFcSYH5bF7S8ZbQ&s=19
“We’re looking at American history”
“Can you imagine our reading that James Madison or Thomas Jefferson tried to overthrow the government so they could stay in power?”
“This is narcissism with steroids”
-@TheRevAl on @Morning_Joe
[Video]
https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1686845291763519488?t=Hg0AB4MP02XSH6_xoQLMZA&s=19
Any rational person would look at these two graphs and at the very least be suspicious.
In graph 1, you see the historical voting trends for bellwether counties that, up until 2020, correctly voted for the next president.
In graph 2, you see that 143,379 ballots were dumped at 3:42AM in Wisconsin the day after the 2020 election, giving Biden the lead.
If you think this is at least somewhat suspicious, congratulations: You are now considered a threat to 'democracy' and a target of the Biden DOJ.
[Graphic]
Thank you
1. Factually, the election was stolen. The gaslighting horses have all left the barn, the evidence is indisputable. How MUCH of the theft was actual forged ballots vs the conspiracy between our government agencies and media is open for debate. However, anyone still trying to claim the 2020 election was "free and fair" belongs in an asylum for life - for the protection of themselves and others.
2. It matters not at all what Trump actually believed at the time - although he would have to have been the idiot Demunists pretend he is to believe it was fair. Legally, he is not only empowered to produce challenges to the election - but even moreso, he is OBLIGATED to challenge an election which has even the slightest appearance of impropriety. That duty comes from his Constitutional obligation to faithfully discharge the laws of this nation. The ONLY guarantee in our Constitution is that our Federal Government will provide us with "a Republican form of government." That means no cheating. The guarantee cannot be said to have been met any time Congress accepts any State election results for which they cannot and/or do not provide hard physical proof of legitimacy. The burden of proof lies on government, not on We the People.
It is a sad statement of humanity that almost every time a nation descends into totalitarianism it is through popular support. People are incurably stupid.
“The gaslighting horses have all left the barn”
What in the world does that mean?
It means it's not working, it won't ever work again, and continuing to try the tactic shows the dishonesty, insanity, and desperation of the left to pretend this is a legitimate government.
Sullum pretends as if this case is about a crime. He's just biding the time until he can once again vote for his boy Xiden in 2024.
According to the indictment, when Obama repeatedly stated that "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor" for the proposed Obamacare legislation, he defrauded the government. He had been repeatedly told that wasn't true so he knowingly made those false representations.
The 2020 election was botched. There was so much video and sworn witness testimony of illegal ballot handling that no rational person can be certain who really was chosen by the voters. It seemed that most of the problems involved heavily Democrat districts. The real winner is a matter of belief. Trump is entitled to his belief that he is the real voter's choice and thus justified in attempts to get an honest count. The prosecution has a steep uphill battle proving the 2020 election legitimate. The Biden DOJ has ironically given Trump his long denied day in court to challenge the 2020 count. Biden is the only possible loser in this case.
Botched? Hardly. The coup was successful. Not completely, because they will never succeed in convincing over half of Americans that it was legitimate - but sadly it doesn't matter because they remain in office (and vertical).
So many people are so easily distracted. Let's get back the main thread of reality and not allow ourselves tb be so easily sidetracked.
No, it is irrelevant what Trump truly believed. The first amendment says nothing about having to believe in what you're saying. If that was the case, most politicians and lawyers would be guilty. Guilty of what, I don't know. Just guilty of whatever the latest charges are against Trump.
Can Al Gore prove that he really believed that the 2000 election was stolen from him? Could he be found guilty if didn't believe it?
How about Hilary Clinton in 2016, who conceded the election, and has spent every moment since then claiming that Trump stole the election. Does she believe that? I doubt it. Arrest her.
How about hypocrite-in-chief Stacy Abrams?
How about Ohio democrats in 2004 who WOULD NOT SHUT UP about rigged VOTING MACHINES.
You can't make this stuff up, folks. Oh, wait! Yes, you can. You can make up any absurd fairy tale you want, and at least half of America will believe it. Donald Trump has done NOTHING that any number of democrats have done. If he's guilty, they're all guilty. Arrest them all, or STFU.
The first amendment says nothing about having to believe in what you’re saying.
There's a lot that the Constitution doesn't say about our rights or the powers of government. Since people have been criminally prosecuted for fraud and perjury and sued for defamation for saying things that they knew (or should have known) were false since the Founding, I think everyone in the country understood that false statements are not automatically included among protected speech when someone is harmed by the false statements.
NOBODY has proven that the fraud which took place during the 2020 election did not happen. They cannot, and will NEVER be able to because a) it did of course happen and b) the evidence needed to prove the State elections valid were never collected; evaluated improperly if at all; and / or not stored. All of these are required by law (in legitimate States). Furthermore, Article IV Section 4 – our Constitution’s only guarantee, makes it clear that the burden of proof does not lie with We the People to prove the States cheated, but with government to prove the elections were legitimate. This makes sense to any sane person, because the alternative is that we are all supposed to simply “take government’s word” that they did not cheat regarding the sole source of their own legitimacy. "We're legit, trust us!"
In point of fact, our Federal government has been in violation of this guarantee for decades because fully half the States (mostly blue) do not currently have election laws sufficient to prove the outcome even if their laws were followed – which they clearly do not. However, until 2020 there was at leas a sliver of confidence that the overall result was still correct – that charade is now over.
The Constitution’s only guarantee has been violated. This renders the Constitution and our Federal government null and void. All pretense of a legitimate Federal government are now stripped away.
Did Trump Really Believe the Election Was Stolen? Here Is Why It Matters.
As much as that would matter for the legal charges against him, I think something else that should matter is whether he really believed the plan on Jan. 6 was legally viable.
Pence unilaterally rejecting the Electoral Votes of states? State legislatures then convening to ‘investigate’ and ‘settle’ the disputes? All before the constitutionally mandated inauguration on Jan. 20?
Eastman’s idea was always baloney. Even if it was possible to pretzel the language of the constitution that far, no one with half a brain could argue that those that ratified the 12th Amendment or passed the Electoral Count Act of 1887 had that in mind as a possibility. Nor could anyone think it would be anything but a enormously stupid idea to make it so that a defeated VP could just say, “Nah, we didn’t really lose” and send the country into chaos.
Holding elections is so that the people choose their government. It is already difficult to get widespread acceptance of the legitimacy of results of elections when it is partisan elected officials that have to oversee and certify them. To allow those same or other partisan officials to overturn those certified results without having to follow rigid rules of evidence, standards of proof, or legal precedent would be making a would-be dictator’s job easy. Expecting the state legislatures to investigate allegations of fraud with honesty and open minds and then vote for anything but their party to prevail – more likely for a leopard to change its spots.
Another bitter leftist crying that nobody believes their story of a legitimate election. Like all leftists, you believe our Founders were as incompetent as yourselves.
Our Constitution contains exactly one guarantee. Article IV Section 4 guarantees us the right to "a Republican form of government." That means no cheating. The guarantee means that it is the DUTY of our Federal government to reject any suspicious results for which any State cannot or will not provide hard proof of legitimacy. Such proof is unavailable for every swing State from the 2020 election. It is also unavailable for about half of our States, mostly the blue ones, because their State laws - even if complied with, which we now know unquestionably they do not - are insufficient to collect, properly analyze, and store the necessary evidence.
The only alternative to the facts laid out above is to utterly suspend disbelief and imagine that - regarding the SOLE source of legitimacy of our government - we MUST "take government's word for it" that their elections were legitimate unless WE bear the burden of proof to detect and prove in a court of law that they cheated. How then can we "prove" cheating when the evidence to do so (either to prove cheating, or to prove legitimacy) simply do not exist through intentional malfeasance? Utter madness, and only a simpleton or pathological liar would claim to believe that's what our Founders intended.
Smith doesn't have to prove Trump didn't believe the bullshit he was peddling, but he made those points in the indictment because he has witnesses who will testify Trump knew he lost.
Only Demunists "know" things that aren't so, Cletus.
In literally thousands of ways the 2020 election was stolen / fraudulent / illegitimate. No amount of parroting talking points will ever change that, nor convince the intelligent that it was legitimate.
Ironically there’s no gathered evidence to it being “false” STILL.
If they’d spend even but 1/100th of the resources looking into election integrity as they did trying to “hang the witch” maybe the evidence would mature into fact.
The only thing maturing is the GUILT by it’s focus-offset standard to “hang the witch” who made publicly known any evidence that did come to light.
NOTHING has yet to explain why foreign IP access was gained or the logs were counterfeited. NOTHING has yet to explain the massive contrast between In-Person and Mail voting. NOTHING has yet to explain all the video footage in D'Souzas video.
NOPE. The only discovery going on is how to "hang the witches" making all this evidence by calling them names and constant media BS talk.