A Grand Jury Considers the Question of Whether Trump Sincerely Believed He Won Reelection
That issue is central to Special Counsel Jack Smith's investigation of the former president's response to Joe Biden's victory.

Ever since Donald Trump began claiming that he was the victim of "a major fraud" in the 2020 presidential election—which he started doing on Election Day, while votes were still being tallied—his sincerity has been open to debate. Did he really believe the nonsense he was spouting, or was it all part of a clever populist strategy? That question is of keen interest to political junkies and armchair psychologists. It is also central to Special Counsel Jack Smith's investigation of whether Trump committed federal crimes by trying to overturn Joe Biden's victory.
Based on information from "four people briefed on the matter," The New York Times reports that the Washington, D.C., grand jury convened as part of Smith's investigation recently heard testimony about whether Trump "privately acknowledged in the days after the 2020 election that he had lost." One of the witnesses was Trump's son-in-law Jared Kushner, who reportedly said "it was his impression that Mr. Trump truly believed the election was stolen."
That impression is consistent with a plausible account of why Trump embraced one wild charge after another while insisting that he actually won reelection (a position to which he still publicly clings): His inflated yet hypersensitive ego could not survive an admission of defeat, so he desperately latched onto any claim, no matter how implausible or unsubstantiated, that reinforced his self-image as a winner. The details did not matter; the main point was that he could not possibly have lost.
Nor did it matter that several of Trump's advisers, including his attorney general, viewed his claims of systematic election fraud, involving deliberately corrupted voting machines and massive dumps of phony ballots, as completely unfounded. Trump instead listened to advisers like Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, and John Eastman, who said what he wanted to hear: not just that Biden had stolen the election but also that the situation could be legally remedied through litigation, appeals to state officials, slates of "alternate" electors, objections by Republican legislators, and Vice President Mike Pence's intervention during the congressional tally of electoral votes on January 6.
The alternative explanation is that Trump cynically promoted the tall tale that Giuliani and Powell were telling, even though he knew he had lost the election, as a way of reinforcing the ardor of his most passionate supporters. According to that view, it did not matter whether there was any realistic hope of changing the 2020 outcome. The main point was maintaining Trump's domination of the Republican Party and setting him up for another run in 2024.
The difference between these dueling accounts is legally significant because it goes to Trump's state of mind when he pursued the tactics recommended by Giuliani et al. Was he honestly trying to correct what he mistakenly viewed as a grave injustice, or was he knowingly perpetrating a fraud?
The House select committee that investigated the January 6 Capitol riot by Trump's supporters recommended several criminal charges against the former president, all of which hinge on his intent. The committee, for example, thought Trump should be prosecuted for conspiring to "defraud the United States," a felony punishable by up to five years in prison. That charge is viable only if Trump recognized that his election claims were false.
The committee also thought there was enough evidence to charge Trump with obstructing an official proceeding (i.e., the congressional certification of Biden's victory), a felony punishable by up to 20 years in prison. To convict Trump of that charge, prosecutors would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he acted "corruptly," which may be difficult.
Trump maintains that he was pressing a grievance he believed was well-founded through means he thought were legitimate. That is consistent with the advice he received from Eastman, a law professor who conceded that enlisting Pence to delay or block congressional validation of the election results would violate the Electoral Count Act but argued that the statute was unconstitutional. The question is not whether Biden actually stole the election or whether Eastman was right but whether Trump honestly believed those things.
"You need to show that he knew what he was doing was wrongful and had no legal basis," Duke University law professor Samuel Buell, a former federal prosecutor, told the Times last year. While prosecutors would not have to show that Trump understood he was committing a specific crime, Buell said, they would need to make the case that he knew he had lost the election, recognized that he did not have a valid legal argument, and decided to proceed with "a known-to-be-false claim and a scheme that [had] no legal basis."
Trump's private statements to advisers such as Kushner could support or undermine that case. "The key is having contemporaneous evidence that he was saying that he knew the election was not stolen but tried to stay in power anyway," Daniel Zelenko, a white-collar defense lawyer and former federal prosecutor, told the Times. "The problem with Trump is that you have to try and get inside his mind, and he has such a history of lying and pushing falsehoods that it makes it difficult to determine what he really believes."
Another complication is that Trump's view of the election results may have shifted over time, perhaps more than once. While it seems clear from his angry, rambling, incoherent, and boastful Election Night speech that Trump's immediate instinct was to cry fraud, some insiders have said he later admitted he had lost.
Alyssa Farah Griffin, who was the White House communications director at the time, told the January 6 committee and federal prosecutors that Trump said something like this shortly after the election: "Can you believe I lost to Joe Biden?" Although that question is open to interpretation, Griffin saw it as an admission of defeat. "In that moment," she testified, "I think he knew he lost."
In a 2021 CNN interview, however, Griffin conceded that Trump may have subsequently changed his mind. "He told me shortly after that he knew he lost, but then, you know, folks got around him," she said. "They got information in front of him, and I think his mind genuinely might have been changed about that, and that's scary, because he did lose, and the facts are out there."
Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Mark Milley gave a similar account. During a meeting in late November or early December, he told the committee, Trump casually referred to Biden as "the next guy" and acknowledged that "we lost." But in subsequent meetings, Milley said, Trump began pushing the stolen-election narrative: "It wasn't there in the first session, but then all of a sudden it starts appearing."
By early December, a newly revealed text message shows, Trump's lawyers were acting on an "urgent POTUS request" for the "best examples of 'election fraud' that we've alleged." Trump lawyer Boris Epshteyn asked for "any sort of 'greatest hits' clearinghouse that anyone has for best examples," which he said did not "necessarily have to be proven" as long as they were "easy to understand."
The shift described by Griffin and Milley could be evidence that Trump deliberately misled his supporters, making claims he did not believe. Or it could be evidence that "folks got around him," as Griffin put it, and persuaded him that his initial reaction—that Biden could have won only thanks to "a major fraud"—was well-grounded.
Former Attorney General William Barr, who says he repeatedly told Trump his election fraud claims were "bullshit," told the January 6 committee that Trump never gave any "indication of interest in what the actual facts were." That account is consistent with willful deceit, but it is also consistent with an unshakable belief in an ego-salving fantasy.
There's a similar ambiguity in Trump's notorious January 2 phone conversation with Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, during which Trump pressed Raffensperger to "find" the votes that would be necessary to change the election outcome in his state. Trump flitted from one unsubstantiated fraud allegation to another, including one he admitted was just a "rumor," and was clearly frustrated by Raffensperger's patient refutation of each claim. Depending on which explanation of Trump's behavior you favor, he was either soliciting election fraud (a charge that Fulton County District Attorney Fani T. Willis is investigating) or asking Raffensperger to rectify a supposedly fraudulent result.
After following Trump's election claims for nearly three years, I am still not sure whether he drank his own Kool-Aid. But to avoid Trump's conviction on federal or state charges based on his refusal to accept the election results, his lawyers need only establish a reasonable doubt as to whether he was deceitful rather than deluded.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
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There is a mountain of circumstantial evidence that would lead one to believe it might have been stolen, and at least a third of the country thinks it was, so this defense seems open and shut.
A third of the country thinks the election was stolen, but that third are inbred yokels that think the earth is 6 thousand years old. They believe any halfbaked conspiracy theory they hear, except for wrestling being fake, they still think that's real.
Artie?
Tony. Or Buttplug
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I’ve never met anyone who thinks that. A majority of people I know think it was likely stolen, due to the outrageous shenanigans in Atlanta, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Philadelphia.
I believe there was some election fraud; that this would be the first election in history without fraud beggars the imagination. But I do not believe it was enough to steal the election, and even if it was, any election that close leaves half the country pissed, regardless of who wins.
I believe the election was stolen by collusion between the deep state and the media.
If you can change the rules on the fly to allow more low information voters to vote, or for the party that typically wins the low-information-voter vote to harvest ballots more easily, you don't have to steal the election. You just throw the envelopes away before the ballots are audited.
i'm not aware that "low information voters" should be deprived of the right of vote.
What about their right to sell their ballot and have somebody else vote for them?
That is a problem. The founding fathers never intended for the US to be a democracy.
And what of the people that have moved away but not removed from the voting rolls?
Copied directly from a headstone in a Chicago grave yard.
Yet they had to simultaneously stop the count across multiple swing states in a panic, then spend more than a week manufacturing enough ballots to nudge Biden past Trump anyway.
The fraud was brazen and obvious. Not to mention all the illegal 11th hour court decisions.
The democrats have to go. There is absolutely no way forward for this country as long as they exist.
Every election has fraud involved, but most of it is on the local level and is designed to elect a Democrat to the county commission. There's no way fraud could be coordinated in such a way as to affect the outcome of a national election. This would require a massive nationwide conspiracy and it would also require than none of the thousands of conspirators would have cracked and admitted their crimes.
I would *not* require any conspiracy at all, let alone national coordination.
All it takes is enough true believers who, when faced with a chance to tilt the scales, felt that the ends justified the means, and they went ahead and did it. Individuals making individual decisions, or at worst a few conspirators in localized shenanigans.
A postal employee who collected ballots from mailboxes, who decides to bin ballots from houses with the other teams' signs in the yard, for example. an election official charged with opening and verifying absentee ballots who scraps a few hundred ballots for the other team on flimsy causes, but bends over backwards to allow the good team's ballots, even those that bear clear evidence of fraud.
"It would not...", not “I would not...”. Too late to go back fix.
Citation needed, Sir
I often use this argument.
Over half of Democrats polled said that just one single instance (out of the many now known of) of election interference from our own government (the suppression of information about Hunter Biden’s laptop) would have changed their vote – either to not vote at all, or vote for Trump. Ignoring all other acts of election interference and fraud, that single act alone changed the outcome.
The election was stolen via hundreds, perhaps thousands of such “small cuts.” That also includes direct theft via submission of illegitimate ballots into un-monitored ballot boxes followed by intentional disregard for signature matching.
That is just ONE of the things they did. If you still think it wasn’t enough to change the outcome, you are living in looneyleftlalaland.
Citation needed
By a margin of 52% to 40%, voters believe that “cheating affected the outcome of the 2020 U.S. presidential election.” That’s per a Rasmussen Reports survey from this month. This stands in stark contrast to the countless news stories editorializing about “no evidence of voter fraud” and “the myth of voter fraud.”
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2022/03/28/new_peer-reviewed_research_finds_evidence_of_2020_voter_fraud_147378.html#!
No widespread corruption.
So, are you suggesting targeted corruption which changed the election outcome is just dandy?
The words "evidence" and "myth" relate to facts; polls reflect beliefs.
Facts.
Over half of Democrats polled said that just one single instance (out of the many now known of) of election interference from our own government (the suppression of information about Hunter Biden’s laptop) would have changed their vote – either to not vote at all, or vote for Trump. Ignoring all other acts of election interference and fraud, that single act alone changed the outcome.
The election was stolen via hundreds, perhaps thousands of such “small cuts.” That also includes direct theft via submission of illegitimate ballots into un-monitored ballot boxes followed by intentional disregard for signature matching.
Actively lying about the Hunter Bidden laptop is just ONE of the things they did. If you still think it wasn’t enough to change the outcome, you are living in looneyleftlalaland.
Nancy Pelosi believes that the 2016 election was stolen and rigged, too. But no one ever called her an election denier.
Apparently quite a few of those inbred yokels are democrats, cuz I know a few who think that it’s just fine that the election was stolen. There was, in fact no other choice. Democracy hanging in the balance and all that.
They’re ready to fortify even harder next year. And they might have to given the disaster that is Brandon/kammy.
Why even bother to vote?
I'm reminded of a WSJ article years ago. Wherein a man handed his wife his absentee ballot on his way out-of-town for business travel. The Mrs., knowing full well that her Mr. had voted Republican, and that she, a lifelong Democrat, could not in good conscience allow his vote to counteract her own, threw his ballot in the trash.
Some years later in their marriage, it came out what she did. Her husband was crushed by her deeds, and while they remained married, his trust and faith in his wife was sorely shaken.
This is sarcasm, right?
You mean the Earth is less than 6,000 years old? Gadzooks!
Is that you Hillary?
the irony, it burns...Hillary says 2020 election was rigged, too.
Clinton claimed she had sources tell her that Trump and his family thought they had Georgia and Arizona “totally set” in 2020.
“They had been, you know, working hand in hand with Republican governors and legislatures to limit the vote as much as they possibly could,” she continued. “And they certainly, you know, thought that Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania were, you know, potential opportunities for them.”
“So, he is angry because his … His game failed,” Clinton said. “His rigged game to steal the election.”
“I mean, you can always tell what Trump is really doing because he will accuse somebody else of doing it. It’s projection unlike anything I’ve seen in public life.”
Hillary never challenged the 2020 election. Why? Because she knew the only "evidence" they might uncover would be of Democrat cheating.
HRC accusing someone else of projection... I'm not sure what to say
You literally spent 7 years believing that Donald Trump colluded with Vladimir Putin to hack into voting machines and change the tally to steal the 2016 election from Hillary Clinton because he got peed on by Russian hookers in a Moscow hotel room, sarcasmic. Maybe you should go a little easy on accusations of being a credulous rube. Also if you're going to just use the same lame ass copypasta, there's no reason to start a new sock, just keep using your KillAllRednecks sock for your "Hurrr durrrr rednecks and also I'mma kill that Mormon cop who's fucking my ex-wife" shtick.
Why doesn't this forum have a "like" button?
I've been waiting for Reason to get ballsy enough to, unlike FB and YT, have buttons like
I agree!
I disagree!
I think that comment was false (or BS)....
and maybe a few that the censors might disapprove of...
But on a site like Reason, to not be able to offer even a brief response seems silly. Maybe with their new system... ?
I’m convicted he was no ever married. I also have a good faith belief that Sarc inhabits a garbage can in a piss soaked alley.
Just like Oscar the Grouch.
HRC accusing someone else of projection... I'm not sure what to say
A good portion of those "yokels" are Democrats who think it was a good thing to steal the election, to prevent Literally Hitler from winning re-election.
They installed a Literally Hitler in President Trump's place, and we've been battling censorship, the labeling of dissidents as domestic terrorists, and other Hitler-happy tactics, ever since.
Literally.
You misspelled "stupidly", asshole.
And I think the other are indoctrinated, lied to brainwashed idiots. They lied to you about Russian collusion.
They lied to you about the pee tape.
They lied to you about Bountygate.
They lied to you about white supremacist are good people
They lied to you about find the fraud.<
They lied to you about Trump getting rich from being president.
They lied to you about the Capitol Policeman’s cause of death.
They lied to you about covid origins.
They lied to you about Hunters laptop was a fraud.
They lied to you about Hunters laptop was Russian disinformation.
They lied to you about not censoring people.
All proven lies or retracted stories.
Yet you keep believing them. That is insanity!
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. – Albert Einstein
Oh, but despite the fact they stopped any and all investigation into what happened in the 2020 election, they are telling you the truth, because they would never lie to you. ROTFLMAO!
...and if you are still uncertain, they are lying to you about not being able to find the person that brought cocaine into the White House, who planted the pipe bomb and who leaked the Supreme Court decision!
Demunist Cult membership is incurable.
Only a third of the country believes the election was legitimate, Cletus. Another third believes it was legitimate (all knuckledraggers), and the remaining third know it was stolen and delight in lying about it.
Which of the latter two groups are you in?
I'm waiting for someone to allege once again that Trump lost the election by over seven million votes making it seem ridiculous that the election could have been stolen. This is a subtle falsehood - Trump lost the election by less than 100,000 votes - an average of less than 20,000 votes in each of five pivotal states - whose electoral votes would have flipped the Electoral College vote. This is a much less irrational number to claim that election fraud in a few key blue cities "stole" the election.
Five cities*
It is hard to believe that Joe Biden got more votes than any candidate in history including Barack Obama. I repeat, Joe Biden, someone who sniffs children and was a gaff machine before his brain became mush, got more votes than chocolate Jesus.
How hard?
Got more votes from black people than Barack Obama. That's the basically fucking impossible to believe part. Especially since the black unemployment rate was at its lowest ever under Trump.
It’s all democrat bullshit. Just like everything else they do.
While the number of votes that decided the election is smaller than the popular vote difference, the number is still quite high and well above the level that one could expect to commit fraud without being caught. If the state differences were a few hundreds you could make a case, but once the difference is over 1000 you have real problems making the case for fraud. The checks in the system make add or removing that many votes a real problem.
Georgia had more double voters than 1000. Weird.
Investigations have put that number now well below 1000 and that was for a primary not the general election.
No they haven't.
Your behind on your reading;
https://www.ajc.com/politics/investigation-finds-far-less-double-voting-in-georgia-than-alleged/WAOLVUT7B5HYFI7KX5E6OZW75A/
So you’re saying that it’s impossible to imagine fraud affecting nine thousand votes in Los Angeles (over 8 million people), nine thousand votes in New York City (over 8 million people), nine thousand votes in Houston (over 7 million people), nine thousand votes in Philadelphia (over 5 million people), etc etc etc etc …
Demunists still believe Presidential elections are decided on the popular vote of the people.
The polls that say only a third of the country think the election was stolen, they're a bunch of baloney. Half the country thinks so, including more than the 71 million that the "official count" (haha) says counted.
The bad guys bragged about the steal in Time Magazine, they couldn't help themselves. They had lawyers on standby to make sure they didn't say too much incriminating.
And Jeff Epstein didn't kill himself.
And Sirhan Sirhan didn't kill Robert F Kennedy, so says his son.
And James Earl Ray didn't kill Martin Luther King, his whole family says so.
When did it become a crime to say an election was stolen?
I'm a software engineer and I don't trust any vote results until the day they are HAND-counted again.
All conspiracy theories are a product of a CIA disinformation campaign.
/meta conspiracy
"I’m a software engineer and I don’t trust any vote results until the day they are HAND-counted again."
That explains why my apps are always crashing, anyway.
Every election has fraud involved, but most of it is on the local level and is designed to elect a Democrat to the county commission. There's no way fraud could be coordinated in such a way as to affect the outcome of a national election. This would require a massive nationwide conspiracy and it would also require than none of the thousands of conspirators would have cracked and admitted their crimes.
Zuckerberg spent $400 million on what?
No, it’s quite simple. It came down to five cities in five swing states.
One third acknowledge it was stolen.
One third are gleefully lying.
The remaining third are incurable idiots.
Circumstantial evidence is just not conclusive and if a person or group went back and looked at earlier elections is there any evidence that they would not find as much circumstantial evidence about those elections? The 2020 election was put under a high level of scrutiny and the same would be true of any election that got that level scrutiny.
As for the what the country believes, that is on their leaders. You should note that few Republicans will say there was election fraud, the majority use weasel words and talk about it like you do about “questions”. None will offer proof.
It’s all their audience demands.
The evidence is not merely "circumstantial."
Election meddling by our government happened - we have the email proof.
There is both statistical and video proof that batches of ballots were dumped in "drop boxes" and that "mail in ballots" were never signature matched - altering the outcome.
Facts.
Over half of Democrats polled said that just one single instance (out of the many now known of) of election interference from our own government (the suppression of information about Hunter Biden’s laptop) would have changed their vote – either to not vote at all, or vote for Trump. Ignoring all other acts of election interference and fraud, that single act alone changed the outcome.
The election was stolen via hundreds, perhaps thousands of such “small cuts.” That also includes direct theft via submission of illegitimate ballots into un-monitored ballot boxes followed by intentional disregard for signature matching.
Actively lying about the Hunter Bidden laptop is just ONE of the things they did. If you still think it wasn’t enough to change the outcome, you are living in looneyleftlalaland.
The commentor "But SkyNet is a Private Company" identified circumstantial evidence.
How about you address the hard evidence then. Not that it matters. You’re just a shill. Nothing you say has any worthy or validity.
You are not a credible, or trustworthy person. You’re also likely at least a borderline sociopath. Your party attracts those.
I understand the legal issue here for this particular case and charge. What confounds me is, the focus on actual voting fraud when we all KNOW now that Russiagate and hiding Hunter's laptop were fraud - if not criminal - actions that influenced the vote and possibly Trump's belief about the election results(?) I'm not a fan of Trump at all but principled Libertarians ought to be outraged at how he and we were tormented for years. I actually wonder if the whole mess wore people down to the extent that some formerly rational beings accepted the lockdowns just to get some peace. Sad.
The "evidence" is less than circumstantial, it's mostly fabricated. Nonetheless, I'm quite certain that Trump absolutely believed it. His ego wouldn't allow him to accept that more people voted against him than for him.
He gained 12 million votes over 2016. Then there's the phantom water main break in Georgia.
There is no evidence the election was stolen, and lots of evidence and real investigations that have shown it wasn't.
Trump is mentally ill, and his followers are mentally retarded.
"There is no evidence the election was stolen, and lots of evidence and real investigations that have shown it wasn’t."
There is a LOT of evidence of news 'management', hiding Biden's misconduct immediately prior to the election, but TDS-addled lying piles of lefty shit like you ignore that.
"Trump is mentally ill, and his followers are mentally retarded."
TDS-addled lying piles of lefty shit are mentally incompetent to pass judgement on others, TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit.
Trump, did, still does, and always will believe the election was stolen. Everything he has said and done points to that.
No matter how much they legally harass him. No matter how many times they charge him. No matter how many times they sue him. An those actions seems to point to the fact it is true. They certainly don’t want Trump back in office to investigate 2016.
Again, everything he has said and done points to that. So it is open and shut case, they will say Trump doesn’t believe it and go on with the prosecution and conviction!
GET TRUMP IN ACTION!
So many articles on why trump is bad and corrupt yet sullum just plain ignores the political motives and prosecutorial misconduct of Jack Smiths office. Why?
Tar and feathers would be too kind for Sullum
Sullum is the reason I cancelled my paid Reason subscription.
Probably because there has been no prosecutorial misconduct by Jack Smith.
Trump is going to prison for stealing top secret government documents.
That make me laugh, and it makes Trump's followers mentally retarded.
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit.
Reason writers totally ignore the corruption of Joe and Hunter Biden and the rest of the Biden family too. Even though there are bank transfer records, even though there are records of shell companies, even though their is evidence on Hunter’s laptop. Even though there are witnesses and whistleblowers.
But would be hard for Reason so busy telling us how bad Trump is to spend a few lines on the Biden family. TDS is a difficult mental illness to overcome. It seems to be an incurable, terminal condition.
Meanwhile Biden says "Fuck You" to the Scotus and constitution but impeachment is off the table.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12299325/Biden-forgives-39-BILLION-student-debt-804-000-Americans.html
But it’s only 39 billion of your dollars.
Stupid young people who paid off their loans, or who worked real jobs instead of lounging on campus!
I mean come on, it's a rounding error. Biden spent that much on his Ukraine++ MAX subscription last month.
It's only 39 billion of the tax dollars of Americans if Corporations pay no taxes.
That is what Libertarians want. 0 Corporate tax... 0 taxes on the wealthy.
Only people like you from the inferior class should be forced to pay taxes. Taxes keep you on the mouse wheel.
"It’s only 39 billion of the tax dollars of Americans if Corporations pay no taxes.
That is what Libertarians want. 0 Corporate tax… 0 taxes on the wealthy."
Is that strawman heavy, lefty pile of shit?
Some people have no understanding of investing or taxes, or even basic economic principles, but are fully indoctrinated in “hate the rich”, by the liberal media!
They also don’t understand the basic difference between an income tax, which we have, and a wealth tax, which we don’t have. Rich Democrat billionaires take advantage of this:
“Jeff Bezos made $81,840 last year”(CNN) and pays almost no taxes, because as CEO he has all his needs met under his “protection of safety and security” by the corporations.
Warren Buffett’s salary has been $100,000 a year for over 4 decades.(businessinsider) Berkshire Hathaway spends triple that amount on his security each year. You see it is not corporations ripping you off in taxes, but uber-rich Democratic billionaires.
Why are 19 of the top twenty billionaires all Democrats? (Alice Walton is the lone Republican) Because Democrat lie to you and give them the Billionaires the biggest breaks!
Corporations earnings are paid out in dividends. Those that invest in the corporations are paid out dividends or earn capital gains on increased value when they sell and pay taxes on those gains.
The more they are paid out dividend or make on sales, the more their capital gains taxes. Taxing the capital gains means less investors capital gains, so they pay less taxes. So taxes indeed are paid on corporations earning, by their investors! Pretty much a net zero game.
Corporations earnings are paid out in dividends to their investors Those that invest in the corporations are paid out dividends or earn capital gains on increased value when they sell and pay taxes on those gains.
The more they are paid out in dividend or make on stock value increases, the more their capital gains taxes. Taxing the corporations gains means less investors dividends and capital gains, so they pay less taxes. So taxes indeed are paid on corporations earning, by their investors! Pretty much a net zero game.
But you would be surprised, a few billion here for student loan cancellation, a few billion there for Ukraine, and a few billion here again for climate change, a few more billion here and there for this and that and before you know it, the total is about $8 trillion dollars!
My understanding, is that this loan forgiveness program is different than the one that he proposed at SCOTUS. This one is, allegedly, about correcting administrative errors about classifying certain loans as on an income-based repayment plan or not. If a loan is on that program, by law, after 20 years of payments, that loan is forgiven. So, allegedly, this loan forgiveness initiative is for borrowers who were mistakenly classified and *should have* had their loan forgiven but didn't.
Who knows if this is actually the case or if this is Team Blue just shifting the books around to try to get as much loan forgiveness out the door in a quasi-legal way that will get under the SCOTUS radar, I don't know. But the rationale anyway is different than the previous one.
Yeah, we know it’s different but thanks for jeffsplaining all that deep nuance, genius. Maybe it’s not just blatant pandering after all!
Lol.
So, the same sort of accounting tricks that allows another $6B of weapons to be handed off to Ukraine?
Or what this guy said.
You are right Libertarian Boy.
Russia should be permitted to take the Ukraine.
It will save you a few bucks.
. This one is, allegedly, about correcting administrative errors about classifying certain loans as on an income-based repayment plan or not.
Was there another novel, administrative and accounting theory that allows the Pentagon to keep sending arms and aid to Ukraine?
Scotus is corrupt and rotten to the core.
When Biden is re-elected he will expand the court to dilute away the Republican stench.
Everything Is So Terrible And Unfair.
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Considering he urged his followers to vote in person in order to guarantee more mail-in ballots would go in favor of his opponent, and then used that to convince his followers that he was robbed, I'd say he planned on disputing the election long before the results were in.
Learn this at MSNBC? Odd in that the run up to the 2020 election it was democrats making claims of a stolen election. But you do you. Blind faith in institutions.
Considering he urged his followers to vote in person in order to guarantee more mail-in ballots would go in favor of his opponent…
How would that be?
Math. His people who listen to the message do not mail in their ballots. They wait to vote in person. That means a larger percentage of the in-person vote will go to him, and a corresponding fewer number of mail-in votes will go to him. The end totals will be the same. It's just math.
Unconvinced
No worries. I'd never accuse you of being good at math.
You didnt present math. You presented an actual conspiracy as fact.
And easily debunked.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/12/politics/trump-mail-in-voting-north-carolina/index.html
This is where Jesse does not understand the difference between a generalization and a specific claim. It is actually a type of straw man fallacy.
sarcasmic wrote:
Considering he urged his followers to vote in person
This is a true statement generally speaking, because there are numerous upon numerous examples of Trump urging his followers to vote in-person. That Jesse is able to find one single example of Trump doing the opposite, in one specific context, does not refute the generality of sarcasmic's statement. Sarcasmic never claimed that Trump urged his followers to vote in-person 100% of the time without exception - if he had, that would be a false argument - and Jesse's attempt to change sarcasmic's actual argument into this specific claim that he never made, is what makes it a strawman fallacy.
Show the math.
1 != 0
Show some math next time.
Thanks for reminding me why I keep you on mute.
Can you point out your math?
Or is math another word you dont understand?
You always answer people you have on mute? What’s the point if you won’t POST THE LIST?
He sees the comments when he uses his socks.
Get help.
Learn math.
Coming from a self-confessed hopeless alcoholic and drug addict who his only off the streets because of section 8 housing and welfare, that's pretty devastating sarcasmic. Especially after you presented a logical fallacy that contained no mathematical calculations as a math problem. You should finish off your plastic jug of Walmart brand vodka and then post some SQRSLY copypasta from the wrong handle again, that'll really show him.
You’re done pussy. Crawl back under your rock.
Presuming a fixed number of votes ahead of the election to be divided up between mail-in and in-person ballots is not math, drunky. Maybe you should head on over to Glibertarians again and see if they can teach you logic the same way they had to teach you the basic HTML that you missed during your post-graduate work in computer science.
I appreciate you making the case that mail in ballots are fucking stupid.
Um, no. I said that he was very shrewd in telling his followers to vote in person, because he knew that would mean more mail-ins going to Biden, which he could then use to convince his followers who don't do math that there were shenanigans in the mail.
Except he didn't do that. Try looking up your "facts."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/12/politics/trump-mail-in-voting-north-carolina/index.html
https://apnews.com/19ade6dafb5b6f82f324e4be9b12a7a0
.. because he knew that would mean more mail-ins going to Bid….
Show the math.
I think he is confused by his own argument.
Well, he is a drunk idiot. And a cowardly oust that has run away from me for five months now.
So your theory here is that Trump knew ahead of time precisely how many ballots were going to be cast in person and by mail, and told his followers to cast their ballots in person, so that he could convince them that the ballots that were cast by mail and accepted for weeks after election day were illegitimate? Did the underpants gnome at the bottom of your plastic jug of Walmart vodka help you out with this "math" or what?
You're used to being the smartest guy in the room, right?
And you're the one who can't find the door, right?
But that also admits that the people that would vote for Biden are too fucking lazy to go vote in person, thus mail-in voting is fucking retarded.
Isn't it standard practice at this point to plan to contest election results if you lose? Biden openly spoke about having teams of lawyers at the ready to do just that had he lost.
Marc Elias has an entire career dedicated to it.
Of course it is. What is not standard practice is to urge your supporters to shun mail-in ballots. I'm saying that was a calculated move to create something to blame in case he lost. Granted it is impossible to prove that the mail-in and in-person results would have been much more equal had he not done that, but I believe they would have been.
It thought math was involved, not just your belief.
I can’t prove a counterfactual. However if any number of Trump supporters who would have voted by mail chose to vote in person based upon his urgings, then that would have created a discrepancy between mail-in and in-person counts that would have resolved in the totals. It is very reasonable to believe that that number was not only bigger than zero, but in fact significant.
Unless you’re going to claim that no Trump supporters changed their minds in how (mail/person) they voted, or that the number was so small as to be insignificant, then you must agree with my logic.
But you've now been provided multiple counterfactuals of your own claims. So you can provide a counterfactual as I did. In fact you could have cited one time Trump told followers to only vote on election day to butress your claims, but you didn't do that either.
I did find multiple CNN and MSNBC making the same claim without providing quotes as well though.
However if any number of Trump supporters who would have voted by mail chose to vote in person based upon his urgings, then that would have created a discrepancy between mail-in and in-person counts that would have resolved in the totals.
Total nonsense.
There's also the possibility that the mail-in ballots that arrived for more than a week after the election and went nearly 100% for Biden were manufactured after the in-person totals had been tabulated on election day, and that Trump had no actual way of knowing before the election what the vote totals would be and therefore wouldn't have had any reason to instruct his voters to only vote in person (which he didn't do, but let's just try to follow the underpants gnome at the bottom of your plastic jug of Walmart vodka here) in some Nth-dimensional chess gambit to convince them the election was stolen before a single vote had been cast.
“that the number was so small as to be insignificant,”
It was this one. Republicans on average vote in person more, unless your last name is Obama.
I don't know where you got that, except from the voices in your head, but Trump never told anyone not to use them.
He preferred in-person voting, but he was not dumb enough to close off any possible votes.
I know for a fact that he said that. I'm not going to google it. You can if you want, but you might not like what you see.
Present your facts then. I literally posted 2 counter examples above dumbass.
The "im not going to Google it" is a giveaway that you know you made a bald assertion.
Hey drunky, I just googled it and it turns out Trump never said what you "know for a fact he said." Care to weigh in and maybe provide any evidence to support your claim, or would you rather remain hoist on your own petard here?
Trump: Don't vote by mail because it doesn't work out for Republicans
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/08/trump-slams-mail-in-voting-says-it-doesnt-work-out-well-for-republicans.html
And Biden said he had the most extensive voter fraud organization in American history.
This seems an awful lot like you trying to change the subject...
Nah, it’s just that you people need to be straightened out. Although backhanding gets the attention of a democrat retard much more quickly.
Trump: “Mail-In Voting is already proving to be a catastrophic. The Dems talk of foreign influence in voting, but they know that Mail-In Voting is an easy way for foreign countries to enter the race.”
(you may recognize the citation here)
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/12/politics/trump-mail-in-voting-north-carolina/index.html
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/trumps-repeated-false-attacks-on-mail-in-ballots/
There's a whole lot of quotes in that link.
Here are some more quotes.
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/the-presidents-trumped-up-claims-of-voter-fraud/
Show the math.
Yes, he was critical of mailed-in voting, but you can't find him telling his supporters to not do it.
There are plenty of people, who have done absentee balloting, for years.
Trump would never tell those voters to not vote, unless they could do it on election day. That would be letting votes for him, to not be cast.
Only someone stupid would believe he would do that.
I'm confused Sarc, is Trump a moron or a calculating genius?
He's like that Bush character, who was too stupid to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, but somehow managed to con the stalwarts of Democrat leadership in both the House and Senate into voting for his war.
What he said was "we have the most extensive and diverse voter fraud team in American history".
He didn't say they had lawyers, or that they'd contest the election.
He said they had an extensive voter fraud team.
You don’t understand, he just misspoke!
He stutters!
Yea, that's the line even some of the more level headed types fall back on.
Too many people still live in denial of where we're at.
What do you think he meant?
Be honest.
(Lol)
If he read anything you've posted, he meant:
"Fuck off and die, asshole".
Considering that in most states, the mail-in ballots broke 5 percentage points more for Biden than the in-person ballots did, no one ever explained how in battleground state Pennsylvania, the mail-in ballot percentage looked more like California. Or how all the TV networks knew there were enough mail-in ballots stacked up in boxes to overcome a 400K vote deficit, when the math from every other state would have predicted otherwise.
And predicted a loss until the midnight counting which switched the counts from slightly Biden to almost exclusively Biden with some of the counts being 95-5 Biden batches. Batches so far outside of statistical sigma bounds.
And all of those outside of statistical bounds, miraculously showed up after the polls closed.
I wonder how all of those Biden voters knew how to make it so that their votes would get counted after everyone else's.
"I’d say he planned on disputing the election long before the results were in."
Bingo, and the evidence is simple and convincing.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
That isn't evidence, sarcasmic, it's a CNN opinion piece. Thanks for confirming what we all already knew and already accused you of: swallowing a narrative from a partisan political outlet. Although it is simple -- as it would have to be for you to gulp it down, being as you self-admittedly couldn't finish Economics In One Lesson, which is a 200 page economics primer for laymen written at an 8th grade reading level.
CNN then MADE UP quotes about what Der TrumpfenFuhrer said? And CNN did NOT get lynched or sued for it? What planet did you say you're from? Planet Paranoia perhaps? Or Planet Delusional?
They've made stuff up before like "it's illegal for the public to look at these, its different for the media."
He definitely started talking about fraud before election day. At a bare minimum, he wanted a fraud narrative revved up and handy before the election if it didn't go his way.
Nancy Pelosi was saying for weeks that Trump would initially win but "we'd eventually find the votes in mail in ballots to beat him".
Dozens of lawsuits were filed to stop the illegitimate procedural changes that would make fraud far easier, and the courts refused to deal with them.
Pedo Jeffy knows all of this. He always repeats the same lies ignoring the dozens of times he’s been slapped down for them before.
We’re far too kind to him here.
Considering that Democrats and the Media were warning of a "Red Mirage" so they could convince the voters afterwards that the election was perfectly fine, I'd say that the people who stole the election planned out how they were going to do it well before the initial results were in.
Did he really believe the nonsense he was spouting, or was it all part of a clever populist strategy?
To be fair, this could be asked about the utterances of any politician.
None of this matters. The ONLY question legally is whether Trump committed any crimes. Mens rea only comes into play concerning whether he INTENDED to commit crimes, not WHY he might have "acted the way he did!" Saying that the election was stolen from him is not - or at least should not be - a crime. Investigating Trump's beliefs is a frivolous waste of grand jury time and resources, and feeds the common perception of a politically motivated "witch hunt." If you have to decide intention before you can decide whether a crime was committed or not, you're already on very shaky legal ground.
Mens rea is an essential element of some crimes, so you can't just write it off.
Trump's sincere belief in nonsense may indeed make him innocent of certain crimes he's charged with.
However, Trump's sincere belief in nonsense probably should also disqualify him from ever holding public office again. (Obviously.)
Does it disqualify others?
Again, why would a grand jury investigate whether or not someone believes that there was election fraud?
Trump committed no crimes. Whereas Biden is obviously guilty of a whole hot of serious offenses. Possibly treason. It’s like most of the Biden family should be put in prison for life, some possibly executed for what they have done.
We know they can indict a ham sandwich. If this case is allowed to proceed it will move us that much closer to indicting and then convicting a ham sandwich in a show trial put on by the State.
I guess it depends on what the ham sandwich was really thinking.
And that depends on which "folks got around him"...
How about a grand jury to consider if what the Democrats did was illegal, and if the election results were fraudulent?
You have to show the grand jury evidence and that is what the election fraud people lack. As Guiliani said "we have theories but no evidence".
Well, we know that there were illegal ballots counted because courts would later rule that the election laws introduced during 2020 for at least Pennsylvania and Wisconsin (or was it Wyoming) were illegal.
While courts have allowed restriction for the future, those court rulings were not in place at the time of the election. Because they were not in place the voter cast their ballots in "good faith" and the court have ruled they must be accepted, hence they were not illegal. If you check the records you will see that the Wisconsin Supreme court voted 4 to 3 to accept the election result and later voted 4 to 3 to disallow the voting practices in the future. Justice Hagedorn was the swing vote in both these decisions.
Also, as you pointed out this was Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and would not apply to Georgia where the former President faces indictment.
They presented evidence but the state AG refused to pursue. I literally gave you the links to this already dumdum.
The state AG refused to pursue because the evidence does not exist. People can throw out all the theories they want, but officials are not obligated to follow every damn conspiracy.
Everything you say is a lie. Amazing to watch.
Everything?
You've lied right there.
The whole "Trump Conspired with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" propaganda campaign was a fraud.
And you had and have no problem with it!
You’re a shill.
And a lying pile of lefty shit.
Joe Biden has been a big fat liar all his political life, can we indict him for that? How about for breach of contract given all his campaign promises he never followed through on? Or is he safe on mens rea grounds given that he's a moron and therefore non compos mentis?
I believe that is true, which is why I never, ever wanted him to be President. He lied from at least his law school days, and on through his speech-plagiarizing days and probably beyond. (He seems to do it especially when under pressure.)
But, seriously, if we're going to compare him with Trump on their capacity for telling the truth, there is no comparison. Biden lies, sometimes. Trump doesn't even know whether he's lying or not.
You’re a lying piece of shit shill that just obfuscates legitimate discussion.
^+1
You have clearly identified our newest TDS-addled shit.
The question is not what Trump believed but what the people believe. There is no question that the election wasn't fair and there are many questions that need answers. Congress gave Russia gate 6 months and our election 2 hours, what are they trying to hide?
Mens rea. It's more than just the aftermath of a laxative.
How is mens rea relevant?
"Did Trump Really Believe..." or rather "was he knowingly committing fraud."
Mens rea being defined as "...the intention or knowledge of wrongdoing..."
I don't know if I can explain it more simply without a crayon.
What fraud did Trump allegedly commit?
Jesus H on a skateboard. RTFA. Fuck.
So you can not answer the question.
I am not surprised.
RTFA. I'm not going to scroll up and cut'n'paste because you're lazy.
There absolutely no probable cause that Trump defrauded the United States.
To say nothing of the fact that not all fraud charges even require mens rea, but drunky has absolutely no fucking clue whatsoever what "mens rea" actually means and misuses it constantly because he's incredibly stupid.
He didn't GET AWAY WITH destroying multi-party democracy, so it's all OK?
The Cunt®™, Adam Schiff, and Robert Mueller got away with it.
You have absolutely no problem with that.
Hey drunky, I read the article again. Here's what it says:
Since we don't know what charges are being considered by the grand jury and this is all speculation based on anonymous sources cited by the New York Times, what fraud Trump allegedly committed is left unsaid. The implication is that merely pleading his case that he was cheated out of the election constitutes fraud. But the charge is not stated. Because no charge has been filed and grand jury deliberations are *wink wink* secret. So, go ahead and answer the question now, you drunk piece of shit: What fraud did Trump allegedly commit?
What evidence would be sufficient to convince a paranoid, delusional, psychotic Perfect Person to change their so-called "mind"?
Maybe he meant “gaslight”, or “math”, because he’s not sure about the definition of that word either.
I will cite William Jacobson.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
If there is even a plausible case that what Trump had done could possibly constitute the crime of fraud against the United States, then what the Cunt®™, Adam Schiff, and Robert Mueller did was definitely the crime of fraud against the United States.
When will they get prosecuted?
When will Trump be prosecuted for supporting the MURDER of Mike Pence, for DISOBEYING ORDERS to vastly exceed Pence's Cunts-Tits-Tuitionally authorized powers?
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/25/trump-expressed-support-hanging-pence-capitol-riot-jan-6-00035117
Trump expressed support for hanging Pence during Capitol riot, Jan. 6 panel told
The select panel has heard that, after “hang Mike Pence” chants broke out, the then-president expressed support for the prospect of hanging his No. 2, three people told POLITICO.
Is it a crime to support the murder of someone? If so, then there are a lot of Democrats who need to be arrested, for supporting the murder of President Trump!
Sarcy/SQRSLY is unable to understand that.
Why didn't Trump prosecute them when he had four years to do it? Whining about it now seems a little pointless. Unless you just intend to use it as a distraction...
The Durham Report only came out this year.
I actually thought you made a sexism joke here.
True, it's also one of a litany of terms you don't understand and constantly misuse despite having them explained to you hundreds of times.
The whole "Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Election" was a fraud on the United States.
When will the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton) be prosecuted for her role in that fraud?
When will we discover green cheese on the moon?
But she didn't have any man's Reese's!
/sarcasmic
Hell, weren't Obama and Biden involved with that as well?
Yea, Hillary's not actually the most guilty party here.
Everybody in government, including both Obama and Biden, who conspired with her did much worse.
Any sane society would publicly execute them, and others, for their monumental crimes.
But Trump decided not to even prosecute them.
The Durham Report had not been finished yet.
there was not, at the time, the evidence to prosecute them.
Don't bother the newest lefty shit pile with facts.
When one considers the extent to which his enemies went to get him out of office, beginning even before he was sworn in.
How could he, and millions of us out here, not sincerely believe that they went as far as to steal the election, to accomplish what they had failed to do, on multiple occasions, for the last four years.
Very great point.
They even bragged about it in the papers.
They declared "By Any Means Necessary" over and over and over again during his presidency. Am I truly supposed to take that to mean "Any -- Other Than Election Fraud".
The article examined that very question. It appears that Trump was not quite as certain as his acolytes.
So what?
That is not a crime.
ObviouslyNotSpam's tiny hands are grasping at any straw he can; mis brain isn't any larger.
What are they supposed to do, hook up the mind-reading hardware?
Former President Obama said it best: “We had an election, and Joe Biden is now the President.” (Not that more people voted for him, or that he won fair and square.) Sure, a country that cared about election integrity would probably invite the United Nations in to investigate Pennsylvania and Georgia and Arizona, but we’re probably better off not giving the UN more power.
I like that the best defense people can put together are that Trump isn't guilty because he is completely delusional. He isn't committing fraud because he is so completely delusional that he drunk his own Kool-Aid.
People come up with all kinds of theories to explain what is going on in politics. "The Orange Man is Bad" continues to beat them all. It's insane that anyone continues to support him. During his entire time in office he achieved no major conservative goals that could not have been achieved by Jeb Bush, Rubio, or one of the other non-insane Republican candidates. His biggest conservative achievement, the appointment of the three Supreme Court Justices, used a list of candidates from a mainstream conservative organization that any other Republican president probably would have also consulted. Backing him over other Republicans has achieved nothing.
Trump us not guilty because what is alleged to have done is not wrong.
He cut taxes to businesses and had regulations jettisoned, at a pace, and extent, never seen before, that had the economy booming like it never had.
That, conservative action, alone was worth his re-election, and was the focus of sabotage through the deep state's reaction to a new virus.
A novel virus, that through such reaction, caused an untold number of unnecessary deaths.
The moral judgments of a pedophile who got his original Sarah Palin's Buttplug account banned for posting dark web links to hardcore child pornography don't mean anything to anyone besides you, shreek.
Ah, you're the Clicker-in-Chief, ain'tcha?
Figures.
From the leading TDS-addled shit.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
But he TRIGGERED THE LIBS!!!!!!!!
What fraud did he commit?
Seems to me you transposed delusion and deceit in your last sentence. No?
Just a few reasons why Trump (or anyone else) might think that the 2020 election was stolen.
- Trump got more votes for President than any candidate for President ever, except that Joe Biden a guy who ran his campaign from his basement, and when he did come out couldn't attract flies got more???
- NO POLLSTER predicted a record turnout, so where did it come from?
- Participation rates followed historical averages everywhere EXCEPT for a few high-population counties in battleground states where the elections are controlled by Democrats AND two battleground states: Minnesota and Wisconsin.
- In many of these areas the participation rate was so high as to be statistically impossible or highly improbable
- Over 2,000 affidavits of various types of election fraud submitted under penalty of purgery most of which were never investigated or simply had a recount, which of course would include recounting any fraudulent ballots that existed, as opposed to uncovering which were legal ballots and which were not.
Perhaps a penalty of buggery would have resulted in more credible affidavits?
Are you a liberal?
OK, so we've got Jack Smith, NYT and Reason all working from the premise that Trump is unquestionably wrong when he claims that the election was stolen. Would Jack Smith, NYT and Reason care to reference the research that they've done in order to turn that premise into verifiable fact?
No, they would not. Because there has been NO research into any of it. Instead, we are told to just take the democratic party's and Jack Smith and NYT and Reason's word for it. Sorry folks, that doesn't work for me. There's been seven straight years of mindless, disgusting persecution of Trump and his supporters. Let's just say that I detect a hint of bias. So, I'm afraid I'm going to have to see PROOF that there was nothing improper in the election. That won't happen, because there was all kinds of improper action in the election.
Perhaps the newbies out there aren't aware that, in every presidential election, both parties lawyer up, prepared to take anything and everything to court to push things in their own favor. And of course, every judge in those courts is either democrat or republican. The idea that the courts are impartial is a sick joke. Does anyone think that the members of SCOTUS are impartial? No? Then why would you think lower court judges are impartial?
There was a stench emanating from the 2020 election, right from the start. Established law was thrown out the window, with judges making rulings they had no right to make. UNSIGNED ballots were accepted, counted and then disappeared. Chain of custody, essential to any legitimate election, was ignored. There are HUNDREDDS OF THOUSANDS OF BALLOTS that no one can verify as to their legitimacy.
You've heard of 2000 Mules. Either you've seen it, and know what you saw, of you haven't seen it and perhaps believed it when the influencers peddled the lie that it didn't show what it showed; election fraud. Perhaps you have not even heard of Mollie Hemmingway's book, "Rigged" which gives names and dates of the multiple coordinated attacks on election legitimacy.
So, Reason, tells us again, why should we trust you? Your only response to all the evidence is, "Trust us when we tell you that Trump is wrong". That doesn't cut it for me.
p.s. Voting machines are computers. All computers can be hacked. The only way to make sure a computer isn't hacked is to keep unauthorized personnel away from it. Did that happen in 2020? Not even close. As they say, do the math...
You sound VERY convinced that YOU know it ALL!
Sidney Powell needs your help!
https://reason.com/2022/02/11/sidney-powell-disowns-her-kraken-saying-she-is-not-responsible-for-her-phony-story-of-a-stolen-election/ (Yet another Powell article)
https://reason.com/2021/03/23/sidney-powell-says-shes-not-guilty-of-defamation-because-no-reasonable-person-would-have-believed-her-outlandish-election-conspiracy-theory/
Sidney Powell Says She’s Not Guilty of Defamation Because ‘No Reasonable Person’ Would Have Believed Her ‘Outlandish’ Election Conspiracy Theory
Which particular lies are you wanting to hear and believe today, hyper-partisan Wonder Child?
WHY do you evil people love it SOOOOO much when lawyers LIE in court? Is it the lawyers that You love, the lies, or both?
Responding to someone asking for more evidence than the fact-free assertions of political pundits by linking to the very political pundits he rejected is just to uniquely you, sarcasmic. Keep it up, drunky, you're doing great!
Hi Tulpa!
“Dear Abby” is a personal friend of mine. She gets some VERY strange letters! For my amusement, she forwards some of them to me from time to time. Here is a relevant one:
Dear Abby, Dear Abby,
My life is a mess,
Even Bill Clinton won’t stain my dress,
I whinny seductively for the horses,
They tell me my picnic is short a few courses,
My real name is Mary Stack,
NO ONE wants my hairy crack!
On disability, I live all alone,
Spend desperate nights by the phone,
I found a man named Richard (Dick) Decker,
But he won’t give me his hairy pecker!
Dick Decker’s pecker is reserved for farm beasts,
I am beastly, yes! But my crack’s full of yeasts!
So Dear Abby, that’s just a poetic summary… You can read about the Love of my Life, Richard Decker, here:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/11/farmers-kept-refusing-let-him-have-sex-with-their-animals-so-he-sought-revenge-authorities-say/ and https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/sex-animals-bestiality-farm-cows-horses-richard-decker-new-jersey-a9152136.html
Farmers kept refusing to let him have sex with their animals. So he sought revenge, authorities say.
Decker the hairy pecker told me a summary of his story as below:
Decker: “Can I have sex with your horse?”
Farmer: “Lemme go ask the horse.”
Pause…
Farmer: “My horse says ‘neigh’!”
And THAT was straight from the horse’s mouth! I’m not horsin’ around, here, no mare!
So Richard Decker the hairy pecker told me that, apparently never even realizing just HOW DEEPLY it hurt me, that he was all interested in farm beasts, while totally ignoring MEEE!!
So I thought maybe I could at least liven up my lonely-heart social life, by refining my common interests that I share with Richard Decker… I, too, like to have sex with horses!
But Dear Abby, the horses ALL keep on saying “neigh” to my whinnying sexual advances!
Some tell me that my whinnying is too whiny… Abby, I don’t know how to fix it!
Dear Abby, please don’t tell me “get therapy”… I can’t afford it on my disability check!
Now, along with my crack full of yeasts… I am developing anorexia! Some are calling me a “quarter pounder with cheese”, but they are NOT interested at ALL, in eating me!!! They will NOT snack on my crack!
What will I DO, Dear Abby?!?!?
-Desperately Seeking Horses, Men, or ANYTHING, in Fort Worth,
Yours Truly,
R Mac / Mary Stack / Tulpa / Mary’s Period / “.” / Satan
In other words, you got nothing.
Slimy Armpits had nothing butt insults, so I replied in kind. Anyone who reports FACTS (about lying in court filings, for example) is a "pundit of the wrong Tribe", and so all of their FACTS are thereby refuted. I call that a "nothing" argument. What do YOU call it? If you were HONEST (impossible for EVIL power pigs, I know), your answer would be "it depends on whose Tribe we're talking about, about who is in the wrong, because MY Tribe is NEVER wrong!".
He's got a mouthful of shit, and that's something.
So he's either a fraud or a fool. Generally speaking, most Americans are not inclined to elect either type to high office. I use the word "generally" with due caution, of course, because it's not difficult to identify exceptions. However, the old adage (amended) still applies: Fool (or defraud) me once, shame on you. Fool (or defraud) me twice, shame on me. I myself didn't allow him to fool (or defraud) me the first time; I guess that would make him a failure in my case at least.
Good for you!
I didn't allow Pussy-Grabber-in-Chief to grab my gonads, either...
Wherein sarcasmic is so fucked up on his 4th handle of plastic jug Walmart vodka he accidentally admits he's a pussy. Good job, drunky, you're doing great!
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
Hey shreek, remember how you spent 7 years unironically believing that Vladimir Putin personally hacked into American voting machines and changed the vote totals to steal the election from Hillary Clinton because he had a blackmail video tape of Donald Trump getting peed on by hookers in a Moscow hotel room, and still continue to tell us that the Mueller report conclusively proved those claims even though it actually refuted them entirely and concluded there was no evidence that Donald Trump or anyone involved in his campaign colluded with any agent of Russia? Yeah, you'd have to get up pretty early in the morning to pull one over on the Oracle of Dog Dick.
He could be both, like Joe Biden.
“So he’s either a fraud or a fool.”
From a lying pile of shit or someone too stupid to know,
While people are entitled to their beliefs they are limited in their actions. The rational person may think he is right but realizes the situation allows no recourse. The coach may feel the referee's call is wrong, but at some point he has to accept the ruling and continue to play. If he persists in arguing with the refer, he is ejected from the game. Trump may feel he was cheated but he is also required to accept the election is over and he lost.
Why?
Because he relies on the same system to elect him. If that system is illegitimate, it cannot legitimately elect him, either.
Democrats spent seven years saying our elections were illegitimate.
#notmypresident
#resist
Everywhere, for the entire Trump presidency. Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton complaining that Trump stole the election, for years.
It’d sure be nice if Democrats could get over him winning in 2016, but you morons still believe that he colluded with Russia.
Very great point!
Numerous reports have concluded that the 2016 Trump campaign colluded with Russia. That is not the same as conspired with Russia which would be a crime. The fact is that numerus people associated with the campaign did communicate with Russians. Paul Manafort wrote about this in his 2020 book Political Prisoner.
Wait, people in Trump's campaign actually talked to people from Russia? From Russia? Where's my fainting couch?
He didn't "sincerely believe" ANYthing.
I would have thought the opposite.
Even so, it is not the business of a grand jury.
Other than the Democrat fraud he didn't need to believe anything you lying twat.
Stuff your TDS up your ass; your head is looking for company.
Clearly, Trump was trying to maintain his position as President, not just his "domination of the Republican Party". The plan to have the military seize voting machines certainly suggests strongly that he knew an honest count would show that he had lost. But I guess it doesn't prove it; conceivably, he could have believed that so many state election officials were in on the scheme to steal the election from him that an honest tally of the results stored in the machines would never have occurred under their auspices. But there were some reports that he had privately admitted to certain people that he had lost the election, and if those reports are confirmed by grand jury testimony, then we can expect that additional charges will be brought against him.
What kind of charges?
An utterly easy-peasy Google search will show you, Oh Great Sea Lying Lion! Do you need remedial "Googling" instructions?
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/09/1181340894/trump-indictment-classified-documents-charges#:~:text=The%20indictment%20lays%20out%2037,FBI%20and%20the%20National%20Archives.
These are the charges Trump was indicted on and what they mean
Please note that this indictment was brought by the very same Jack Smith who thinks it is proper for a grand jury to investigate whether or not a politician really believes his claims about election fraud.
This says enough about the indictment that you just posted about.
I don't know Jack Smith... And YOU don't know JACK! Period!
(When did you have your last period? Are you on the rag, that you are SOOOO angry... That "the system" is trying to give YOUR Precious Pet, Der TrumpfenFuhrer, the benefit of the doubt? Mens Rea, Guilty Mind, all that? Here, in case you can actually read... https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/mens_rea#:~:text=Mens%20rea%20refers%20to%20criminal,defendant%20of%20a%20particular%20crime. )
So if The Donald has no "guilty mind"... He just DIDN'T KNOW... They go easy on Him! (Also because they fear Trumpanzees gone apeshit going apeshit again, but never mind that.)
We peons hardly EVER get away with "well, I didn't know that that was against the law". "Well, tough titties, you SHOULD have known", our Lords and Masters typically reply, lately. Mens Rea for The Emperor, but not for the peons. And that is STILL not enough for the Emperor's Trumpanzees gone apeshit, ass YOU (asshole!) are showing us!
To see how the peons (and even the kinda-sorta peons) do NOT get the benefit of Mens Rea, lately, see this:
https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/morally-innocent-legally-guilty-the-case-for-mens-rea-reform
Morally Innocent, Legally Guilty: The Case for Mens Rea Reform
So whiners and crybabies, STOP crying about Der TrumpfenFuhrer possibly getting the benefit of the doubt! Vie Mens Rea!
I don't think I've ever admired Richard Nixon for much of anything, but I admire his actions after the 1960 election where, despite evidence of fraudulent counting in Illinois and Texas, he conceded to John Kennedy and didn't contest the election. He didn't want to tear the country apart. If only folks felt the same these days...
Nixon was a great president, reelected in a landslide.
*Laughs in the war on drugs*
If only the Dems would put up presidential candidates like John Kennedy these days.
great day
It's not clear that Trump has the mental competency to know and understand if he won, or if he lost. He seems to only see things one way, i.e., what he wants to be true, no matter what the evidence says. He further seems willing to believe any cock and bull story that supports what he wants, regardless of the truth.
And the American people elected him in 2016! See the movie "Idiocracy"... Parts of it have become true!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
Yup, people believe all kinds of crazy things, like that men can become women, battling racism requires discriminating by race, spending billions of dollars will reduce inflation, etc. Yup, people believe all kinds of bullshit.
Some of them also believe that one-party rule would fix our troubles, even though there has NEVER been a one-party state that has brought peace and prosperity for the longer term. And who, recently, in the USA, has clearly lusted for a 1-party state?
Der TrumpfenFuhrer ***IS*** responsible for agitating for democracy to be replaced by mobocracy!
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/trump-election-warnings-leaving-office/index.html
A list of the times Trump has said he won’t accept the election results or leave office if he loses.
Essential heart and core of the LIE by Trump: “ANY election results not confirming MEEE as Your Emperor, MUST be fraudulent!”
September 13 rally: “The Democrats are trying to rig this election because that’s the only way they’re going to win,” he said.
Trump’s constant re-telling and supporting the Big Lie (any election not electing Trump is “stolen”) set up the environment for this (insurrection riot) to happen. He shares the blame. Boys will be boys? Insurrectionists will be insurrectionists, trumpanzees gone apeshit will be trumpanzees gone apeshit, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Trump was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It really should immediately make us think of Krystallnacht. Hitler and the NAZIs set up for this by constantly blaming Jews for all things bad. Jew-haters will be Jew-haters, so let’s forgive and forget? Poor Hitler was misunderstood? Does that sound good and right and true?
It's not clear that Big Ed's Landing's raging case of TDS allows Big Ed's Landing the ability to tie his shoes, let alone make judgements regarding others' mental capabilities.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
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JACOB SULLUM is a senior TDS-addled shit at Reason.
Most people who label critics of Trump as having "TDS" have it themselves. They have a derangement that Trump isn't the lying inept piece of shit rational people know him to be. I also refer to it as "Trump dicksucking syndrome".
"Find me 11,780 votes."
Oh, he knew he lost. He's mad that, for once in his life, he wasn't able to cheat his way to a win.
The sick thing is how actually susceptible US election laws were to his style of grift. If this were a mature democracy, that fat orange pustule would be in a nicely appointed maximum-security cell already.
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Trump supporters:
This is a website for libertarian minded people, not big government statist Trump supporters. You shouldn't be commenting here. Also, Trump lost because he blew the response to the Covid-19 epidemic. He's such a loser that he lost an election to a senile buffoon, LOL!
In the whole run-up to the 2020 election, we kept hearing how that Trump was an existential threat to "our democracy" and how his reelection would be as bad as the appointment of Adolf Hitler as Reich Chancellor. That being the case, wouldn't the anti-Trumpsters have considered themselves morally obligated to steal votes if they thought that was what was necessary to ensure Trump's defeat?
To the point of the article, I think that Trump truly believes he was robbed.
I also think that Stockton Rush truly believed that the Titan was safe.
Similar outcomes will ensue.