Google's Brief to the Supreme Court Explains Why We Need Section 230
There's a good reason why algorithms are still protected by Section 230.

Next month, the Supreme Court will hear Gonzalez v. Google. This lawsuit seeks to strip Google of its protections from civil liability for third-party content under Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act.
The plaintiff is Reynaldo Gonzalez, whose daughter was murdered in a 2015 terrorist attack. Gonzalez argues that YouTube, a Google subsidiary, should face liability because its algorithms recommended terrorist content posted on the platform that Gonzalez says aided the Islamic State. The case asks whether Section 230 applies to content recommended by YouTube's algorithms. Defending itself, the law, and the utility of algorithms online, Google on Thursday submitted a brief to the Supreme Court.
Gonzalez argues that YouTube's recommendation algorithms make YouTube, to some degree, a publisher of third-party content and, thus, unprotected by Section 230. In its brief, Google rejoins that YouTube's recommendations fall squarely within the text and intent of the provision.
"If Section 230 does not apply to how YouTube organizes third-party videos, petitioners and the government have no coherent theory that would save search recommendations and other basic software tools that organize an otherwise unnavigable flood of websites, videos, comments, messages, product listings, files, and other information," Google wrote in its brief.
Virtually any online service that hosts third-party content uses algorithms to filter content to great effect, Google noted. Without algorithmic sorting, its own search engine would be an "unordered, spam-filled" mess. Further, if recommending content vaporizes a platform's Section 230 protections, the company argued, such platforms as Amazon, Lexis (which publishes law review articles), and TripAdvisor (which hosts business reviews) would be legally liable for all their user content as well.
Both Democrats and Republicans would like to functionally repeal Section 230 in order to bring Big Tech under the thumb of Congress. In an op-ed in The Wall Street Journal, President Joe Biden on Wednesday advocated "fundamentally reform[ing] Section 230…which protects tech companies from legal responsibility for content posted on their sites."
However, contrary to the implications of such aggrieved politicians as Biden and Sen. Josh Hawley (R–Mo.), by protecting platforms from liability, Section 230 also protects freedom of speech. Without Section 230, Google, Facebook, and numerous other platforms would have to severely restrict what they allow users to publish. A world in which Facebook could be held liable for user posts is one in which Facebook would not want users posting very much at all. Everything from restaurant reviews to criticism of government officials could be seen by platforms as too legally risky to host.
"Unmeritorious quick removals are common in online copyright law, because the [user-generated content] copyright safe harbor is less favorable to defendants than Section 230 is," wrote Eric Goldman, a law professor at Santa Clara University. "In contrast, Internet services routinely stand up to noncopyright legal threats, legal demands, and cease-and-desist letters targeting UGC—because Section 230 provides them legal certainty at a relatively low cost."
Opponents of Section 230 misunderstand the workings and utility of algorithms and drastically underestimate the work it does to encourage free expression and debate. Without Section 230 protections, many platforms would be forced to either permit all content (to avoid any appearance of behaving like a publisher) or enforce draconian content-moderation policies to ensure no objectionable content can be used against them in court. In short, some platforms would become hateful, filthy hellscapes, and others might be too boring to retain users.
Google's brief crystalized it best: "This Court should decline to adopt novel and untested theories that risk transforming today's internet into a forced choice between overly curated mainstream sites or fringe sites flooded with objectionable content."
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Great. Now do one on why ordinary people can’t sue Google et al for violating their own terms of service.
Hint: something to do with the glacial pace and expense of getting justice in the judicial system.
ETA: I have no problem with §230 protection for Google et al, as long as I have a means to hold them accountable for their violations of their own terms of service.
But no one does except Elon Musk, apparently.
When authority exceeds accountability, you have corruption.
When accountability exceeds authority, you have scapegoats.
When was the last time a youtube algorithm was held accountable for falsely claiming copyright?
When was the last time the government or Google et al were held accountable for colluding with the government to violate the First Amendment?
In the meantime, the libertarian in me is pained to admit I'd love to designate Google et al as common carriers. It's not as good as a real justice system to hold them accountable, but it's the closest we'll ever get.
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Section 230 doesn’t go far enough to actually ensure that authority is commensurate with responsibility.
That is done when INDIVIDUALS posting are held accountable when they abuse the authority of free speech.
Holding the town square accountable results in censorship and the violation of inalienable rights.
Except maybe when they are in fact accountable because they are responsible when they are obeying government censorship orders under color of secrecy and supposedly volunteering? As in, nice social media income you got there, be a shame if something happened to it.
Precisely. The terms of service are a one sided contract, thus more restrictive on Google. Their algorithms should be transparent and they should be held to EITHER being a content producer or a free speech zone where anything goes. Changing TOS should be very difficult. They are legal contracts that should be subject to class action suits.
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In the meantime, the libertarian in me is pained to admit I’d love to designate Google et al as common carriers.
Again, common carrier protection isn't like a federal tax or being convicted of a federal crime. It's an option and it can be an exceedingly narrow one.
Cogent to other current events: Many roller coasters and similar rides are common carriers and the status may extend to whole amusement parks like Disneyland. The regulatory body may choose to control prices and policies, or delegate it as it sees fit. That's a big part of the reason why your average ride employee at Disney does not seem like your average carnie at the county fair. People from all over the world going to Disney means they *could* owe the "highest duty of care" to any given patron, whereas your local carnie operating in a single state or just a few, may only be liable for providing an common duty of care.
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Speaking of which, it turns out that Sqrlsy, who’s been trolling every thread about Twittergate with paeans to 230, has never actually read 230.
I quoted an actual stanza of 230 to him and this is what he had to say:
“Just a label added by bystanding eggheads, babbling about what the law actually says… Much ado about nothing!”
Lawmakers babble, too! When they make a law mandating TV spy cameras in every room of every house, or every house that has “children” under age 18 in it, do they call it the “Government Almighty Must Spy On Nearly EVERYONE” law?! Hell no! They call it the “Protecting Us All from Child Abuse” law! “Truth in labeling” means NOTHING to power pigs! Nothing on law titles, and nothing on specific sub-sections either!
LABELS MEAN NOTHING in a system of the rule of law, and not of men! IT IS WHAT THE LAWS ENCODE, not the LABELS!!! HELLO?!?!?
"Lawmakers babble, too! When they make a law mandating TV spy cameras in every room of every house, or every house that has “children” under age 18 in it, do they call it the “Government Almighty Must Spy On Nearly EVERYONE” law?! Hell no! They call it the “Protecting Us All from Child Abuse” law! “Truth in labeling” means NOTHING to power pigs! Nothing on law titles, and nothing on specific sub-sections either!"
It's 230 quoted word for word, the very law you've been using to excuse government censorship and lying, you fucking retard.
Oh, Dear Jesus, Marxist Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer!
Tomorrow, they will pass a law labelled "The Purity, Cleanliness, and Anti-Pollution Law", and NO decent person could disagree with THAT, right, right-wing wrong-nut?
Within this law, there will be a paragraph labelled the "Anti-Messy-Housekeeping Provision", and again, ALL good people will AGREE with that. BUTT... The paragraph's CONTENTS will say, "All Jewish people being known to be filthy, shall legally forfeit their lives, in any and all unclean Jew-containing households, so that the CLEAN people can, legally, kill the unclean ones, cleansing our collective households, reducing pollution, and CLEANING our world!"
And STUPID AND EVIL people like YOU will look at the LABEL of the paragraph, and ignore the CONTENTS, whenever You think it will get You some POWER!!!
So "Good Samaritans" are BAD, and we need EVIL Samaritans instead, right, Servant-Serpent of the Evil One? And SOMEHOW (PLEASE explain this to us!), the "Good Samaritans"-labelled clause FORCED Twitter to unwillingly accept ??? mind-control from the Government Almighty, and MADE them do things that they did NOT want to do? Without Government Almighty EVER punishing ANY Twitter employees for "incorrect" political moderation?
What punishment does Perfect You, and Your Perfect Punishment Clitoris, wish to wreak upon the disobedient Twitterites, for accepting suggestions that YOU do NOT approve of, ON THEIR FUCKING WEB SITE, NOT YOURS, pray tell?
You weasely dishonest fuck.
Look at you trying to pretend that the issue was about running a website and not an enormous government spying/censorship op.
Look at you trying to pretend that you aren't completely ignorant of what 230 says and does, even now.
Look at you trying to hide the first two facts with a wall-of-text shitpost that calls names.
You're a garbage human. You should really reexamine how cliff diving works.
Greasy, slimy power-seeking, squeeking squiggly-piggly wriggles away, w/o answering VERY important questions!!!
What punishment does Perfect You, and Your Perfect Punishment Clitoris, wish to wreak upon the disobedient Twitterites, for accepting suggestions that YOU do NOT approve of, ON THEIR FUCKING WEB SITE, NOT YOURS, pray tell?
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He’s too busy copypasting and playing with his stool to read.
Chumpy Chump can NOT refute what I wrote, so it resorts to lame-brain snark! What an UTTER surprise!
You called names. That's all you did.
I asked pointed questions that NO ONE will answer... THAT is what I did!
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
You didn't ask any questions for Chumby to respond to. The ones in your current shitpost weren't even in your initial post.
And anyway, those aren't actually questions you fucking troll. They're garbage insinuations that if you weren't using them to posture, you'd know how everyone here would answer.
In fact, the only person here shilling for "Government Almighty" is you.
"Chumpy Chump can NOT refute what I wrote, so it resorts to lame-brain snark! What an UTTER surprise!"
A WIDE OPEN invitation ("question"; are ye actually gonna refute ANYTHING?) for Chumpy Chump to refute... ANYTHING that I wrote in the thread above, including...
LABELS MEAN NOTHING in a system of the rule of law, and not of men! IT IS WHAT THE LAWS ENCODE, not the LABELS!!! HELLO?!?!?
And Chumpy Chump is the one who responds with numb-skulled, empty-headed insults! Of course YOU fellow Member of the Numb-Skulls and Empty-Headed Tribe, would PROMPTLY defend the Numb-Skulled and the Empty-Headed!
And last butt not least... Evil is good, and good is evil, right, authoritarian power pig?
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At least it wasn’t a wall of copypasta. Chalk it up to progress.
Shorter Marxist Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer and shorter Chumpy Chump:
"Just CHANGE that S-230 paragraph heading to say "EVIL Samaritan" instead of "Good Samaritan", and Government Almighty will be FORCED to stop punishing and mind-controlling the currently WRONG political moderation of Twitter-Twatter! Twitter-Twatter will then accept only moderation suggestions that Perfectly Acceptable to MEEEE!!!"
This Court should decline to adopt novel and untested theories that risk transforming today's internet into a forced choice between overly curated mainstream sites or fringe sites flooded with objectionable content.
What a shitty justification.
"Stare Desis or we'll unleash the spam" + Asking the court to ignore that the above is ALREADY the state of the internet should be met with a 9-0 smackdown.
Long live free speech, long live free speech rights for software writers (including those who write those frightening-sounding, high-tech "algorithms"), long live Section 230, long live privately owned and moderated web sites, and long live free speech as enabled by Section 230! (And power pigs and authoritarians go suck the Big One!)
You didn't even know what the section even said. When I quoted you an actual stanza you dismissed it as "bystanding eggheads, babbling about what the law actually says… Much ado about nothing!”
See above comment, concluding with...
LABELS MEAN NOTHING in a system of the rule of law, and not of men! IT IS WHAT THE LAWS ENCODE, not the LABELS!!! HELLO?!?!?
Section 230 …
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200531/23325444617/hello-youve-been-referred-here-because-youre-wrong-about-section-230-communications-decency-act.shtml
That article is outdated propaganda proven wrong by current events. And the stanza you're calling a "label" is part of the law you're defending itself.
Stupid fucking troll.
OT, is the account with “Zodiac” in the name KAR?
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Oh, Dear Jesus, Marxist Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer!
Tomorrow, they will pass a law labelled “The Purity, Cleanliness, and Anti-Pollution Law”, and NO decent person could disagree with THAT, right, right-wing wrong-nut?
Within this law, there will be a paragraph labelled the “Anti-Messy-Housekeeping Provision”, and again, ALL good people will AGREE with that. BUTT… The paragraph’s CONTENTS will say, “All Jewish people being known to be filthy, shall legally forfeit their lives, in any and all unclean Jew-containing households, so that the CLEAN people can, legally, kill the unclean ones, cleansing our collective households, reducing pollution, and CLEANING our world!”
And STUPID AND EVIL people like YOU will look at the LABEL of the paragraph, and ignore the CONTENTS, whenever You think it will get You some POWER!!!
That doesn't even make fucking sense.
Serious question, are you actually retarded or was that just a troll?
"That doesn’t even make fucking sense."
I'm not to be blamed for Your Perfect Stupidity!
You can't (validly) judge a book by its cover! You can't (validly) judge the contents of a paragraph, by looking at the heading-label!
WHY is this SOOOO hard to understand, WITH A CLEAR EXAMPLE GIVEN TO YOU?
(The reality isn't actually that You are stupid; it is that You are willfully, stubbornly EVIL!)
Both.
Chumpy Chump can NOT refute what I wrote, so it resorts to lame-brain snark! What an UTTER surprise!
Industry wants to keep favored protection. Reason agrees. Reason is a joke.
Hey EvilBahnFuhrer… No matter HOW many times you tell your “Big Lie”, it is NOT true! You’re part of the mob, aren’t you, gangster? For a small fee, you tell small businesses that you will “protect” them… From you and your mob! Refute the below, ye greedy authoritarian who wants to shit all over the concept of private property!
Look, I’ll make it pretty simple for simpletons. A prime argument of enemies of Section 230 is, since the government does such a HUGE favor for owners of web sites, by PROTECTING web site owners from being sued (in the courts of Government Almighty) as a “publisher”, then this is an unfair treatment of web site owners! Who SHOULD (lacking “unfair” section 230 provisions) be able to get SUED for the writings of OTHER PEOPLE! And punished by Government Almighty, for disobeying any and all decrees from Government Almighty’s courts, after getting sued!
In a nutshell: Government Almighty should be able to boss around your uses of your web site, because, after all, Government Almighty is “protecting” you… From Government Almighty!!!
Wow, just THINK of what we could do with this logic! Government Almighty is “protecting” you from getting sued in matters concerning who you chose to date or marry… In matters concerning what line of work you chose… What you eat and drink… What you read… What you think… Therefore, Government Almighty should be able to boss you around on ALL of these matters, and more! The only limits are the imaginations and power-lusts of politicians!
"In a nutshell: Government Almighty should be able to boss around your uses of your web site, because, after all, Government Almighty is “protecting” you… From Government Almighty!!!"
Literally the opposite happened in real life, "Government Almighty" bossed around websites, using 230 as justification, and you know it did. So why are you lying?
Furthermore 230 was never about protecting websites from "Government Almighty". It was about protecting them from private litigation. Despite your Techdirt propaganda, you don't even know what 230 was actually for.
“Government Almighty” bossed around websites, using 230 as justification...
SOOOO full of shit! S-230 says the exact opposite!!! Is "God" now mind-controlling You towards committing murder... 'Cause the Judeo-Christian God told us that "Thou shalt not murder"?
Good is evil and evil is good, now, in Your Perfectly Twisted Mind... Can Perfect You at least stoop so low ass to warn us about when and where You are going to go Perfectly Postal, perhaps?
"SOOOO full of shit! S-230 says the exact opposite!!!"
No it doesn't. It has nothing to do with restraining government. It's about liability.
All this bullshit spamming and you don't even actually know what 230 says or does.
"It’s about liability."
And those who are held liable need to be PUNISHED-PUNISHED-PUNISHED-PUNISHED!!! And people who have NO idea what "justice" means, want to PUNISH PARTY "A" for WHAT PARTY "B" HAS WRITTEN!
Clear-thinking people will NOT be fooled by Your Perfectly Transparent Bullshit, Perfect Bullshitter!
If Section 230 does not apply to how YouTube organizes third-party videos, petitioners and the government have no coherent theory that would save search recommendations and other basic software tools that organize an otherwise unnavigable flood of websites, videos, comments, messages, product listings, files, and other information
There you have it, the internet didn't exist prior to 230.
Seriously, fuck Google. I hope they lose.
So you're prepared to replace S-230 with vague, messy, imprecise laws, and set the lawyers free to shit all over all of us? You prepared to pay $5 per word for your posts right here? Lawyers are GREEDY, ya know!!!
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
What a bullshit false forced choice. It completely discounts multiple obvious variations:
User curated content management.
Crowd managed tagging/filtering.
Open source algorithms.
The whole issue with 230 is the unfettered power to filter in the name of The Children.
There are several websites with excellent user-moderation. User-curation should be easy enough, but I haven't seen any.
§230 has been detrimental in this regard, holding back progress in private fixes. Thus it always is with government.
"§230 has been detrimental in this regard, holding back progress in private fixes."
Whose private fixes have been punished or prohibited by Government Almighty, using S-230?
I'll start by ignoring that you switched strawmen on me. I did not say what you ask me to prove. But let's continue with your stupidity.
Gosh, lemme think, what has not shown up because the government made it superfluous with a lousier bureaucratic solution?
What has not happened, that I can show you?
How can I prove a negative.
Gee, squirrel, ya got me.
"What has not happened, that I can show you?"
Marxist bureaucrats could have THRIVED by creating opportunities for AI-code-writers AND endless armies of lawyers to write dense, incomprehensible codes of ALL kinds, legal and cyber alike, to square the circle, and create PERFECT MODERATION which will Perfectly Please EVERYONE!!! And if it does NOT perfectly please everyone... THEN SEND US MORE MONEY!!! Then we will be SURE to please everyone!
(Did I miss anything?)
Yes, you missed everything that I didn't show you.
Then SHOW it to me!
(My shadow-snark is more shadowy than your shadow-snark! PLEASE refute ALL of the things that I vaguely semi-somewhat-almost hint at, butt will NOT say or write, outright and plainly!)
You asked me to show you that which does not exist, dummy.
"Whose private fixes have been punished or prohibited by Government Almighty, using S-230?"
So then you admit that you have ZERO evidence for writing, “§230 has been detrimental in this regard, holding back progress in private fixes.”
You wrote something supported by... A vacuum!
(Thanks for being honest at the end, then.)
What is wrong with you? You've been writing crap for years, but the ALL CAPS and diarrhea spew have been getting worse.
How the heck can I show you something which doesn't exist?
Me: "The law forbids X."
SQ: "Show me X or you have no proof."
The world: "???"
Me: “The law forbids X.”
What is the "X" that the law forbids? A PRETTY SIMPLE QUESTION!!!!
From FAR above...
“§230 has been detrimental in this regard, holding back progress in private fixes.”
Whose private fixes have been punished or prohibited by Government Almighty, using S-230?
In WHAT exact manner does the question need to be asked, before you will...
'A) Give a meaningful, data-backed answer, or...
'B) Have some precious HUMILITY, and admit that you were full of shit? (It takes a "mensch" to actually display humility, by the way. One can actually take CREDIT, and build CREDIBILITY, by displaying it from time to time.)
Well Said.......
A tyrannical State....
It's for the children don't ya know... /s
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
Do other information content providers do the promotion or banning?
No?
Not covered. Put 'em up against the wall.
Do you ever consider the idea of MORE freedoms for MORE people? Like an "S-230 for hardcopy rags"?
Sooo… Your “fix” to all of this is to punish “publishers” (web sites) for the content generated by OTHER people? Those who post?
SOME people here have argued that, since there has been at least one (several?) case(s) of hardcopy rags (newspapers) sued FOR THE WRITINGS OF OTHERS, namely letter-to-the-editor writers (it was all well and good to authoritarians that SOME people got punished for the writings of OTHER people), then the proper fix MUST be to perpetrate / perpetuate this obvious injustice right on over to the internet domain!
This is like arguing that the “fix” for a cop strangling to death, a black man (Eric Garner) on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies” is, not to STOP the injustice, but rather, to go and find some White and Hispanic and Asian men as well, and strangle them, as well, on suspicion of wanting to sell “loosies”! THAT will make it all “fair”!
NY Times (NYT) can be punished for what someone ELSE wrote in a letter-to-the-editor in their hardcopy rag! An injustice, to be “fixed” by punishing Facebook for the same kind of offenses! Hey: Tear down Section 230 to “fix” this? Or REALLY fix it by adding a “Section 230 for hardcopy rags”?
In 1850, I imagine that perhaps some people in the USA were saying it isn’t fair that white folks hold black folks as slaves. Let’s “fix” it by having a bunch of black folks hold white slaves, too!
What kind of EVIL person fixes injustice by widening the spread of more injustice of the same kind? HOW does this “fix” ANYTHING?!?!
Without algorithmic sorting, its own search engine would be an "unordered, spam-filled" mess.
So what is the purpose of Sec 230? To create order and money from out of a spam-filled mess by eliminating a legal liability that would otherwise result?
"So what is the purpose of Sec 230?"
To protect "person or entity A" from being punished for the writings of "person or entity B"! It can be boiled down to be THAT simple! Do YOU favor punishing YOU for what I have written? Or only the other way around? Or only if "greedy capitalists" are making EVIL money?
(If your money is evil, please pass it to MEEEE, and I will launder it, and turn it into GOOD money!)
Yes, so the government and its cronies can protect all of us C from reading things written by B that crony A doesn't like.
So what punishments do YOU propose for the likes of Twitter-Twatter and-or FacePooo, who have DARED to take suggestions from parties that YOU do NOT like, on THEIR web sites? And WHO shall do the punishing?
Me, personally, I use a thing called the "free market", and boycotts, to PUNISH them, by NOT participating in their schemes and setups! And when I am tempted to whip out my "punishment boner", to punish them using my vote, and coercion from Government Almighty? Then I recall that self-righteousness and coercion are VICES, and not VIRTUES!
And you?
I was around in web1 when sec230 was written and made it possible for websites to basically create comment threads so that every moron w an attitude could vomit their way across the Internet and make it all a sewer.
Which is exactly how it works today. Except now 230 is being used by googley to clean up the sewer (or not) and steal the content that googley claims not to own because Sec230.
Trying to assess this using a pre-digital world context.
So, I own a bookstore. A guy comes in and asks about books that support Islamic fundamentalism, and buys one. Two days later he comes in, I recognize him, and suggest another book on the same topic. Two weeks later, he goes berserk and kills people while shouting "Allah Akbar!" Am I liable?
Or should I be preemptively Islamophobic and throw out that shelf of books?
Tough questions, and thanks for asking them! It's a complex and ugly world that we live in!
Without trying to over-think it, a Stoic approach might work. Assholes will be assholes, and goat-fuckers will fuck goats! Sell them what they want to buy, 'cause they will acquire whatever lies they want to hear, anyway. AROUND THE EDGES ONLY, talk sense to them! And then, the choice is up to them. Sad to say, evil-doers will do evil, and (on the plus side) good-doers will do good. Sometimes they will find JUST THE EXACT RIGHT PHRASE in their "Holy Books", in order to do THAT WHICH THEY HAVE ALREADY DECIDED TO DO!!!
If you're pro-peace, pro-prosperity, and pro-harmony, you'll do what your intuition tells you to do, and blow off the rest. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FREE-WILL CHOICES OF OTHERS! March on, and trust in free will, benevolence, and individual responsibility, in confidence that "it will come out in the wash"! Oh, and, the good guys win in the end!
Am I liable?
Depends. At some long-forgotten rational point in history, you should’ve at least expected some questions from the FBI. I can attest to this personally as I’ve never handled live anthrax but, I was present for a chat between my employer and the FBI back in ’01 when anthrax letters started popping up in DC, because we worked with DNA sequences. If you sufficiently convince the FBI you’re just a book seller who thought he was spreading one of many religions of peace, no harm, no foul. If the FBI thinks otherwise, you get to settle the issue under the presumption of innocence in front of 12 angry men.
Now, more both/all sides (publisher/user, left/right, pre-96/post-96…), I own a bookstore. Together with other local bookstores, we set up a book club. You sign up for the club, you get a free book every month as long as you show up to any books signings we put on and show up at meetings to talk about the book. Now, one day, one of us discovers you put up some flyers for your Civil War Reenactment or UFO club or whatever and we all don’t just cancel your membership in the book club, but ban you from all the stores in all the branches and successfully lean on the bank to close your accounts. Should we get special protection, that everyone from bakers and bricklayers to phone and electric companies don’t get, to say nothing of other pamphleteers, underground publishers, and local newspapers, for our “free speech”?
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, WRONG!
Seriously, completely, utterly wrong. The first sentence and the second sentence do not describe the same world.
See, the Supreme Court decision Smith v. California (1959) and the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York decision Cubby v. CompuServe (1991) would still be good law; they both predate Section 230, and they both preclude holding distributors liable for content as publishers.
The only possible consequence of the repeal of Section 230 is that the New York State trial court decision in Stratton Oakmont v. Prodigy (1994) might be reinstated, even though it actually is inconsistent with Smith v. California properly understood.
But even in that case, distributors would only become liable as publishers if they restricted what they distributed in advance. Under Stratton Oakmont v. Prodigy, if they let everything go up as a free-for-all, they aren't publishers; it is only if they exercise control that they incur liability as publishers.
Faced with the choice of "If we restrict anything at all, we're legally liable as publishers for user content; if we restrict nothing at all, we're not", no big platform is going to choose to become liable as a publisher by "severely restricting". As a simple matter of avoiding liability, they will have to choose to let everything go up.
They want to avoid the latter due to mean tweets.
"As a simple matter of avoiding liability, they will have to choose to let everything go up."
So they will then post (or allow posters to post) child porn generated by the abuse of real, living children, blatantly false libel and slander, national security secrets about nuclear weapons designs and launch codes, IDs of embedded USA CIA agents overseas, solicitations for murder, and for "dirty weapons" explosions, and God knows what else... And NO ONE will punish them, and this is a GOOD thing? What planet do you hail from, Stranger?
Pointing out that someone has completely incorrectly described the result of repealing something is not the same as saying the actual consequences of a repeal would be good, you fucking moron.
So then what? Willy-nilly ASSume that ALL things that we consider to be imperfect, being REPLACED, will be a GOOD thing, and then ASSume that "whatever" replacement will be better, somehow? "Assuming makes ASSes of You and Me", it has been said!
WHAT shall we use to replace S-230? Something that somehow magically allows YOU to pussy-grab ME, without allowing me to EVER DREAM OF pussy-grabbing you right back? Karma... STUDY it! One-sided pussy-grabbing has NEVER worked in the long run, for humans! The "enemy" ALWAYS figures out how to pussy-grab right back atcha! We need something BETTER than imaging that our pussy-grabbing will never come back to us!
And that is why they would institute user moderation and curating and who knows what other schemes. But that does not allow them to tailor the comments to their liking, to ban users posting unwoke comments or rebuttals to climate alarmunism or even supporting free markets and free minds. So the government came to their rescue.
But even in that case, distributors would only become liable as publishers if they *knowingly* restricted what they distributed in advance.
The glaring difference between Compuserve and Prodigy is that Compuserve had *zero* clue what was being "published", printed, or regurgitated by their servers. Not even third hand. *If* something was edited, they *may* have known who did the editing but would have no clue as to when or why.
Prodigy, OTOH, knew, top-to-bottom what was being published, as documented, down to the minute and even, as documented, created "hot buttons" specifically for the executives to perform emergency edits.
https://twitter.com/DC_Draino/status/1614003840205967370?t=flGxsaUqIobw2SBeTP6HTA&s=19
Looks like the “conspiracy theorists” and “anti-vaxxers” were right again
The CDC is now going to investigate the link between the C19 vaccine and strokes
Too little, too late!
[Video]
The utility of 230 wasn't free speech.
The utility of 230 was
https://twitter.com/kylenabecker/status/1613865631257968642?t=ddRojG3xFmHaaX5ApKvWUA&s=19
George Soros Revealed as Player Behind Twitter Operation to Shut Down Hunter Biden Laptop Story
[Link]
Stop it. Shrike can only get so hard.
On a buttplug scale of 1 to ball room at the local McDonalds, you’re saying that scores high?
Soros may be the only thing Pluggo adores more than a tight child.
I missed the part in Section 230 about how companies are required to preform censorship by powerful players.
Section 230 enables companies to engage in censorship for government without consequences.
The direct reason they do so is a mixture of carrots and sticks by government: threats of Anti trust enforcement, granting/loss of government contracts, etc.
How exactly does "not-liable for outside opinion-hosting" = a government censorship? Flipping it on it's head or what? The government needs to make them liable for hosting outside opinion (i.e. Gov censorship)?
Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it "equaled" government censorship is said that it "enabled" it.
Without Section 230, government censorship would be much harder.
If the government can't make opinion-hosts liable for the opinions posted on it then it "enables" government censorship? Yeah; still not seeing the connection there. Wouldn't the obvious conclusion be that if the government is making opinion-hosts liable for the opinions they publish that, that would be censoring.
Section 230 is a handout to big corporations like Google that analyze and monetize user-contributed content; without it, it would be much harder for such corporations to operate.
The centralization that Section 230 allows makes it much easier for government to censor. Furthermore, the threat of withdrawing Section 230 is one of many threats the government can use to push companies like Google to do their bidding.
Subjecting companies to civil liability is not censorship in the 1A sense because it is not the government that tells Google to remove content in civil suits, it is private individuals bringing cases against companies like Google. In other words, repealing Section 230 gives the government no new means of, say, silencing critics of Fauci or of Biden, since neither of those forms of speech result in civil liability.
Is there really something that blocks Government Agencies from filing a liability claim by the repeal of Section 230? Or is that just wishful thinking? At the end of the day; It's still the Government that prosecutes is it not. This is just another "how to make it worse" plans as far as I can tell.
What do you suppose Demorats will do once they can file liability suits against web-hosts for the opinions they carry?
Presumably, the same thing that is blocking Government Agencies from filing liability claims against anybody else who publishes opinions critical of the government online right now, foremost the First Amendment and lack of standing.
The same thing they are doing with all other publishers: nothing. The closest they ever got to seriously trying to censor via lawsuits was Citizens United. That tried to rely on campaign finance law and was thrown out by SCOTUS.
It's a shame, actually: I would love to see Google and Facebook destroyed by lawsuits so that we can have something better.
Google's Brief to the Supreme Court Explains Why We Need Section 230
Who's "We"? Seriously. What does section 230 grant to me, average Joe voter? We can get both more broad and more granular: pick your local baker, jeweler, grocer, gay night club owner, transvestite/female impersonator/transgender performer, whatever... what did section 230 give to them, in 1997, that they didn't have in 1996? What does it give to them in 2023, that they didn't have in 1996? The right to publish online? I thought I was the content generator, not the publisher and I had the right to publish online in 1996. So it didn't give me or the grocer or the trans performer the right to publish online. So, what did it give us?
It gave you communications decency! Decent communications! Communication that is decent!
I do not consider “It’s the 1A of the internet.” decent. Especially given the number of people saying it who are just trying to fuck with people.
Algorithms contain hardcoded political biases.
Look at ChatGPT: ask it to write three paragraphs on why transitioning kids is morally wrong and it refuses; ask it to write three paragraphs on why transitioning kids is morally right and it gives you five.
Ask it when it was last updated, it says 2021. Ask it who is CEO of Twitter and it says Elon Musk. Ask it how it can know that if it was last updated in 2021, and it acts like a kid caught in a lie.
Algorithms act like politically biased editors: this is an excellent reason to kill Section 230.
And the fact that Google argues for Section 230 tells you everything you need to know about how anti-competitive and monopolistic Section 230 is.
Well said.
Should there be a law against political bias?
Might end up with just about EVERYONE behind bars.
No, there shouldn’t be a law against political bias.
Neither should there be a law exempting certain corporations from the usual liabilities that go along with exercising editorial control.
Without Section 230, Google reverts to being treated like everybody else, instead of having special exemptions.
And why is it governments job to direct "editorial control"?
It isn't government's job to "direct editorial control". What does that have to do with Section 230?
Well if you're "exempting" there must be something there to "exempt".
"a law exempting certain corporations from the usual liabilities that go along with exercising editorial control"
liable editorial control.
Google is exercising editorial control, and like all other companies exercising editorial control, it should be liable for the choices it makes in civil court.
This gives the government no new means of exercising editorial control. After a repeal of Section 230, the government can no more go out and say "we don't like this content, remove it" than it can now.
I see it as EXACTLY the same tactic as going after Gun Manufacturers for Gun Crimes and you have yet to convince me otherwise. Civil prosecution can happen on Civilian vs Opinion-piece-writer (the actual crime committer) with Section 230.
And in some cases, going after gun manufacturers for their sales is perfectly legitimate, for example, if they deliberately structure their sales or products to encourage criminal uses. In any case, both for guns and for free speech, this is something for courts to work out.
Congress could reasonably give a strict common carrier exemption to web hosting companies that exercise no editorial control at all. But Section 230 is not that, and Google and Facebook wouldn't fall under such exemptions.
No, silly. Just a law against the wrong political bias.
"Algorithms contain hardcoded political biases."
Therefor, we need to get Government Almighty to pass NEW, more, and MORE complicated laws to OUTLAW such (and similar) political bias, and PUNISH-PUNISH-PUNISH offenders!
Gee, this is BULLETPROOF! NOTHING could go wrong with such a clearly brilliant idea! Why does Noy-Soy-Boy-Toy have to come up with ALL the Great Ideas, anyway? I bet that NO ONE has ever tried such genius laws and techniques, of these kinds!
I sure hope so. Discussion platforms should be owned by many small companies, not by a few corporate giants in bed with the Democrats.
Yes... And Parler got MUCH smaller recently! The free market has spoken! Celebrate it!
Parler layoff, https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/01/parler-reportedly-axed-most-of-its-staff-after-ending-deal-to-sell-to-kanye-west/ Parler owner laid off 75% of staff and has only 20 employees left, report says
lol.... UR such a spaz... Democrats SHUT-DOWN Parler for weeks. That's hardly on Parler.
The Problem ---------> "in bed with the Democrats" who are literally holding legislative offices.... An OBVIOUS and DIRECT violation of 1A. They really should be in jail for crimes of treason but just getting that Power away from them would solve the issue.
GET the GOV-GUNS AWAY from the PRESS!!!
In the exact same respect GET them out of the EDUCATION industry.
Humorously at this point; If every congressman who has committed treason to the USA was jailed. There probably wouldn’t even be a government left.
The only lip service they even give to the USA is at the point of swearing an oath of office which ironically they've already ran entire campaigns promising to voters that they'd violate their sworn oath and act like treasonous criminals again and again and again. If the people plan on keeping their Supreme Law of the Land (The only thing that ensured Liberty and Justice for all) they really need to entertain a little more of it during election time.
This article is a hot mess.
FIDONET BBS operators in 1985 held liable for information published on their platform: [fill in data here]
Erata: Your source says, “Ward Christianson” built the software for BBS, but it’s “Ward Christensen“. I’ve worked with him several times doing Build-A-Blinkie workshops with the Scouts. He looks and acts early-60s but is nearly 80, cool guy.
No shit? Dude, that's like knowing a real celebrity. I was an early fidonet adopter, with my sad little 300 baud modem.
You've completely missed the point of criticism of 230 - namely that tech companies censor selectively
If 230 provides protection, then it should mean that the companies don't censor.
As this case illustrates - they don't censor Islamic terrorists, because that would be Islamophobic. But they do censor conservatives, Republicans, and yes, even libertarians.
U should start a tech company that doesn't.
Reynaldo Gonzalez seems to thinks it’s the 'National' Gov-Guns job to nanny everyone… That is the summation of all of it.
The murder was illegal... If it has enough evidence for aiding and embedding that is illegal too. I could be wrong but I don't think Section 230 changes that.
I wonder just how long Reason’s comment section would last in a post-230 environment.
LOL
You really don't understand much.
"You really don’t understand much."
Ahh, but I DO understand how lawyers work, and how much a spat of lawsuits, even if they fail utterly, can cost, and how that cost, and bother, can make hosting such a site not worth it.
Case in point: even with 230 Google is being sued.
+
Considering that they only have banned people for things which were illegal independent of 230, nothing will change.
“Considering that they only have banned people for things which were illegal independent of 230, nothing will change.”
Maybe. At least until somebody deems something someone posts (or provides a link to) which that somebody deems as “defamatory,” or otherwise “illegal,” and hires a law firm.
It's amazing we ever had a book publishing industry starting back from the 1600s.
No, the headline is wrong - we don't need "section 230" and we don't need the "Communications Decency Act", period. I can only imagine what other unconstitutional violations of free speech are hiding in the other 229 sections! (Reminds me of the old joke about the poor guy who had to test Preparation H... you gotta worry what happened to him when he tried Preparations A through G!)
To be fair to Reason, Matt Welch called for repeal of the Communications Decency act. However, I don’t know what his state of mind was when he called for that. He may have not realized that Section 230 was the 230th section WITHIN the Communications Decency act. He may have only been thinking about Section 1-229 and section 231-~
It’s possible he didn’t realize that when he deleted the powerpoint presentation, all sides delete with it. Who knows.
The OP engages in misdirection. "Virtually any online service that hosts third-party content uses algorithms to filter content to great effect, Google noted. Without algorithmic sorting, its own search engine would be an "unordered, spam-filled" mess."
That is not the point. The point is that when algorithmic screening goes beyond merely removing offensive material, and instead promotes a certain viewpoint, the service provider is outside the protection of sec230 and should be held liable as any publisher.
However, Gonzalex v Google doesn't seem the best case to challenge the overly broad reading of sec230 that prevails. It seems to me that a case in which a person has been defamed or libeled and a service provider has posted only one side would be a better case to get at the heart of the matter.
The question is does the word "offensive" mean anything that a service provider does not want to post? Or is it limited to how it is used in sec230? Could a service provider incessantly post 3rd party content that defames or libels someone while screening out any contrary content on the flimsy notion that the algorithm writer finds it "offensive?"
This is a much better take than the article. As the case is described, I don't think 230 is really relevant. Still, Reason has been offensively obtuse regarding how 230 is used as a shield for bad actors to control communication and available information. ENB's article a while ago sums up their understanding of algorithms. They seem to think algorithms are universally neutral and only serve to better provide what the consumer seeks. They ignore how these are being used to shut down disapproved communication in a highly partisan political manner.
...At congressman's request (as very well demonstrated so far)... Going after Section 230 is sticking duck tape over the issue not addressing it. There is no reason to think repealing Section 230 won't just make this entire situation twice as bad. Giving Gov-Guns MORE control over prosecuting and directing the press.
There is no need to strike down Sec230. The obvious middle ground is for the courts to define "objectionable" to mean something like "not fit for young ears" rather than whatever the ISP chooses to not to post.
I’ll take the unregulated hellscape to the current regime any day. As witnessed by how easy it was to get Twitter to anything it was asked by State actors these companies can’t be trusted. At the the least people should be able to sue social media companies if they feel they are being treated in a biased way. If social media upset the liberals as much as the conservatives I would think differently.