After Supreme Court Ruling, States Grapple With How To Define an Excessive Fine
The Supreme Court's 2018 ruling in Timbs v. Indiana revived the Excessive Fines Clause. Now state courts have to come up with tests to determine what's excessive.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2018 that the Eighth Amendment's prohibition on excessive fines and fees applies to states under the incorporation doctrine. In the underlying case that triggered the ruling, Indiana police had seized a Land Rover from Tyson Timbs for a minor drug crime.
But while the Supreme Court ruled that states are bound by the Eighth Amendment, the Justices left it up to state courts to determine what constitutes an excessive fine. Wesley Hottot, an attorney for the Institute for Justice, a public interest law firm, says the Timbs ruling revived the largely moribund Excessive Fines clause, especially regarding civil asset forfeiture, which allows police to seize property suspected of being connected to criminal activity.
"We see courts being more careful about this than they would have been prior to Timbs," Hottot says. "We see people raising the [excessive fines] defense more frequently than they did prior to Timbs, and I think it's a matter of time until it goes back to SCOTUS to decide for Eighth Amendment purposes when forfeitures are excessive."
In the years since Timbs, state courts have been grappling with how to determine when a seizure or fine goes too far. For example, the Montana Supreme Court ruled in 2019 that the state's law mandating drug fines equal to 35 percent of the street value of the drug violated the Excessive Fines Clause. This September, the South Carolina Supreme Court upheld the state's forfeiture laws, reversing a lower court ruling striking down the state's forfeiture procedures on their face, despite well-documented evidence of abuse, and leaving any possible reforms to the state legislature.
However, not all states are taking such a thoughtful approach. Take the case of Gene Parnell Taylor, a Washington man driving across the country in an RV. Mississippi police pulled Taylor over in 2018 and seized $153,000 that they found in his RV. There is nothing illegal about traveling with large amounts of cash. Taylor's only crime was possessing a THC vape pen—a misdemeanor offense—but police determined, and prosecutors successfully argued, that Taylor's suspicious activity fit the pattern of a drug trafficker, which, under Mississippi's civil asset forfeiture laws, entitled police to keep all of his money.
In a criminal case, the burden of proof is on the state to prove its case, but civil asset forfeiture flips the presumption of innocence on its head. Under civil asset forfeiture laws, police can seize property suspected of being connected to criminal activity, and the owner bears the cost and burden of arguing in court that his or her property is innocent.
Groups like the American Civil Liberties Union and the Institute for Justice argue this process is unfairly tilted against property owners. Several states have reformed their forfeiture laws to require a criminal conviction before property can be forfeited. But not Mississippi, which operates an aggressive asset forfeiture regime.
In Taylor's appeal, his lawyer argued that the seizure of such a large amount of cash just for fitting the profile of a drug courier and misdemeanor possession of drug paraphernalia—which carries a maximum sentence of six months in jail and a $500 fine—was "wildly disproportional and excessive to Taylor's culpability, thus violating the Eighth Amendment's Excessive Fines Clause."
However, this September a Mississippi appeals court upheld the seizure, ruling that "Taylor presented no evidence that the money belonged to him except for his own testimony, which lacked credibility."
Those sorts of big-number cash seizures are certainly one way to look at excessiveness, but the size of the seizure is not the only measure. Many of the most abusive asset forfeiture cases involve police seizing low dollar amounts or cars from people while never charging them with a crime.
"I think a lot of people regarded the excessive fines clause as only applying to sort of rough justice, something north of half a million dollars, which is really perverse because we know that the excessiveness that's really happening on the streets is the low dollar amounts," Hottot says. "It's really when police are seizing a thousand dollars from someone who they really just allege is in the wrong neighborhood."
For example, public records obtained by the Mackinac Center in Michigan showed that police seized thousands of cars in 2017 under the auspices of marijuana enforcement. Of the more than 2,500 vehicles seized, 473 were not accompanied by a criminal conviction; in 438 of those cases, no one was even charged with a crime. In 10 cases, the cars were seized under suspicion of a drug violation even though the records say police didn't find any drugs.
After the Supreme Court ruling in Timbs, the Indiana Supreme Court created a three-prong test to determine excessiveness. That includes determining what effect forfeiting the property would have on the owner.
But it's a careful balancing act, and strict proportionality is not a requirement. For example, in September, a divided Ohio Supreme Court upheld the state's forfeiture law in a challenge from James O'Malley, whose 2014 Chevy Silverado was seized after his third DUI offense in a decade. The truck was worth $31,000 and his only real asset of any worth. The maximum fine for his offense was $850.
In a dissenting opinion, Ohio Supreme Court Justice Michael Donnelly wrote, "Surely, if the Excessive Fines Clause means anything, it means that the government cannot confiscate a defendant's entire net worth when the maximum fine set by the legislature is less than one-tenth of the value of the forfeited asset."
For now, state courts are still working their way through the implications of Timbs, but Hottot believes the issue will be back before the Supreme Court eventually.
"The law on when forfeitures are excessive is really just beginning to develop post-Timbs," says Hottot. "And I expect that over the course of the next generation, there will be a national standard, a reckoning at SCOTUS, if you will, particularly about these low-dollar forfeitures of a thousand dollars or less, and in what circumstances cash can be treated as though it is presumptively criminal and therefore presumptively forfeitable. It really rings of more of a police state than I think a lot of people would be comfortable with, that you can just be stripped of your property based on nothing but one officer's hunch."
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fines equal to 35 percent of the street value of the drug violated the Excessive Fines Clause
That seems reasonable to me. How is it not?
How is the "street value" of a drug determined? Are agents of the law going around straw purchasing a representative sample of various drugs to average the price? Do they have drug pushers on their payroll to cite the prices of? Neither of these seems like things the government should be doing.
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So you're of the opinion narcotics divisions of the police are ignorant of what various drugs tend to sell for? You've never heard of a sting?
They are ignorant. If you sell 1gram of cocaine for 80dollars...what is the street value of 1kilo of cocaine? Nobody is paying 80k for a kilo (at least in any major city in US).
Police derived figures break it down into the most expensive/smallest amount and extrapolate that times grams of the total weight seized/charged.
In reality, buying in bulk reduces the price per gram. Hence, why a kilo may cost 20-25k for 1000grams instead of 80k. This is an extreme example but more typically you will see someone with say half oz (14grams). Cops wants to say the street value is $1120 (14x80). In reality, they paid like 400dollars for it (or whatever). May seem petty when in smaller amounts, but it all adds up. And of course there is the incentive to lie about the price per gram to increase street values.
However, not all states are taking such a thoughtful approach.
Reason agrees, Montana has a thoughtful approach to it. I think its pretty good too, with the caveat Legalize It, man.
An excessive fine to me is any amount higher than what the average worker earns in a month (after taxes), currently around 3,600 dollars (54K/12 x 80%).
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I think it is quite easy to create a test that even a cop can use to determine 'excess fine'.
Cop: The fine is $100
Perp: Hey man I don't have that.
Cop: So what do you have?
Perp: I got $20 and a prepaid debit card with $30 on it.
Cop: That's perfect. The fine is $20 plus your debit card with pin number.
In much of the world you can pay the fine to the cop to get out of going to court.
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That's called a bribe.
In northern Europe, fines are not generally fixed dollar amounts but what are called 'day fines'. Namely, fines are expressed as a certain number of days income. Obviously not paid to the cop but to the court.
I'm sure there are problems but two positives are:
Fines have roughly equal deterrent effect on behavior rather than swinging from 'this is nothing at all so who gives a shit' v 'this is so big as to be meaningless to me so who gives a shit I just won't get caught.'
It eliminates most prison sentences - which are all a form of day-punishment (# of days/years in prison). When day-fines and day-punishments can be put on the same scale, it becomes possible to see how day-fines can replace some day-punishments.
Observed problem already occurring: Drug dealers with zero legal income would pay near zero fines while senior citizens on fixed incomes would pay disastrous amounts. Since fines rely on verifiable income (hence the reliance upon legal income) anything which occurs in the black market (ie criminal) is not counted.
However, not all states are taking such a thoughtful approach. Take the case of Gene Parnell Taylor, a Washington man driving across the country in an RV. Mississippi police pulled Taylor over in 2018 and seized $153,000 that they found in his RV. There is nothing illegal about traveling with large amounts of cash. Taylor's only crime was possessing a THC vape pen—a misdemeanor offense—but police determined, and prosecutors successfully argued, that Taylor's suspicious activity fit the pattern of a drug trafficker, which, under Mississippi's civil asset forfeiture laws, entitled police to keep all of his money.
This isn't really a fine, that civil forfeiture. I think of a fine as something that's defined in a statute under the penalties section.
I have to agree. This article is conflating two very different issues with two very different concerns.
With excessive fines, the question is the magnitude of penalties. What is excessive for one person is trivial for another. However, the rightness of a fine existing is not in question.
With forfeiture, we are not talking about what fraction of their criminal assets to take. Obviously, all of the drugs, stolen merchandise, and proceeds of their criminal enterprise will be confiscated. We are talking about burden of proof and due process.
Combining the issues doesn't seem to serve any purpose.
"Groups like the American Civil Liberties Union and the Institute for Justice argue this process is unfairly tilted against property owners."
So, the ACLU has at least one redeeming value, although it may be the only one.
Let's ask Alex Jones about excessive fines
Odd, they have no problem defining excessive profits!
A fine is excessive when it is grossly disproportionate to the gravity of the offense that it was designed to punish United States v. Bajakajain (1998). Courts must also defer to the legislature regarding the appropriate range of punishment for an offense."
Regards: Tecnocare Apk
Civil forfeiture is simply Government theft. The constitution clears bans it.
Just going to toss a radical concept out there: Limit civil asset forfeiture to the maximum fine that would be assessed had the parties gone to criminal court and been found guilty. I know that legislatures can be hopelessly out of step with society and that budgets must be funded, but somehow the knowledge that a law was debated by elected officials in non-emotional times and a number was agreed upon seems to give the appearance that said number was what elected officials agreed would curb the illegal activity and redress the harm done to society. Instead, we have civil servants saying "Take it all!" Just a thought.
A fine is excessive if i am fined that amount, it is an injustice, it is not excessive if you are fined that amount, then it is justice.
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NO, all you have to do is put muscle in the police dismissals due to not giving enough tickets. You know what cops will start doing. They will record threats about writing tickets, they will back the testimony of those fined, and they will go through police unions to muzzle the coercers.
This has its roots in inadequate funding. So let's get that out in the open.
A fine is excessive when it is grossly disproportionate to the gravity of the offense that it was designed to punish United States v. Bajakajain (1998). Courts must also defer to the legislature regarding the appropriate range of punishment for an offense.” According to United States v.
Regards: VN Video Editor Mod Apk
Legally, that just replaces 'excessive' with 'disproportionate' as a non-testable non-objective criterion.
Notice that none of those political entities expressed surprise that this happens as in 'There is a snake on your head" They know there's a snake. 🙂
Any word on the double jeopardy implications of civil asset forfeiture. In practice, anytime there is a criminal case and a forfeiture the forfeiture is technically a separate civil proceeding against the property itself (sometimes called in rem jurisdiction).
If the civil asset forfeiture is a 'fine' for purposes of 8th amendment (and fines are clearly a punishment for some bad act); and double jeopardy prevents multiple or successive "punishments" for the same offense (or act), can someone whose assets were successfully seized argue for the dismissal of the related criminal charges due to double jeopardy??? OR if they plead quickly to the underlying criminal charge can they then have the forfeiture dismissed as a successive punishment??
Get your big brains on. I think there is room to argue this.