Donald Trump's Handling of Classified Material Looks Worse Than Hillary Clinton's
The former president thought his 2016 opponent should go to prison for recklessly endangering national security.

According to a search warrant inventory that was unsealed on Friday, the FBI found 11 sets of classified documents, ranging from "confidential" to "top secret," when it searched former President Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort in Palm Beach last Monday. The top-secret documents included some that were labeled "SCI," or "sensitive compartmented information," an especially restricted category derived from intelligence sources.
On the face of it, Trump's handling of these documents, which he took with him from the White House when he left office in January 2021, raises national security concerns at least as serious as those raised by Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server as secretary of state. Trump has long maintained that Clinton's mishandling of classified material when she ran the State Department was egregious enough to justify sending her to prison. But in his case, he says, the documents at Mar-a-Lago, despite their labeling, were not actually classified.
How so? According to a statement that Trump representative John Solomon read on Fox News after the search warrant and inventory were unsealed, Trump had a "standing order" as president that automatically declassified material he moved from the Oval Office to his residence at the White House. That explanation raises additional questions about Trump's seemingly cavalier treatment of sensitive information, which I'll get to later. But first let's compare what Clinton did to what Trump did.
"If I win," Trump told Clinton during a debate a month before the 2016 presidential election, "I'm going to instruct the attorney general to get a special prosecutor to look into your situation, because there's never been so many lies, so much deception. [There's] never been anything like it, and we're going to have a special prosecutor. When I speak, I go out and speak, the people of this country are furious. In my opinion, the people that have been long-term workers at the FBI are furious.…We're going to get a special prosecutor, because people have been, their lives have been destroyed for doing one-fifth of what you've done. And it's a disgrace and honestly, you ought to be ashamed."
Trump added that "you'd be in jail" if it were up to him. That theme was a staple of Trump's campaign rallies, where his supporters would chant "Lock her up!" at the mention of Clinton's name.
In July 2016, when then–FBI Director James Comey announced that the FBI had not found enough evidence to justify criminal charges against Clinton, he reported that 110 messages in 52 unsecured email chains had been "determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received." He said "eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification."
By comparison, the FBI's list of items seized at Mar-a-Lago includes five mentions of "various" or "miscellaneous" top-secret documents, three mentions of "miscellaneous secret documents," and three mentions of "confidential documents." We don't know how many documents were in each set or the precise nature of the information they discussed. But five sets of top-secret documents could easily contain more sensitive information than eight email chains that may have referred to top-secret material only briefly and/or in passing.
Comey said Clinton's treatment of "very sensitive, highly classified information" was "extremely careless." On its face, that judgment could support charges under 18 USC 793, which encompasses "gross negligence" in the handling of information "relating to the national defense"—a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. But Comey concluded that was not enough to justify prosecuting Clinton:
Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes regarding the handling of classified information, our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case….In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted involved some combination of: clearly intentional and willful mishandling of classified information; or vast quantities of materials exposed in such a way as to support an inference of intentional misconduct; or indications of disloyalty to the United States; or efforts to obstruct justice.
The Mar-a-Lago search warrant was based on U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart's determination that there was probable cause to believe the FBI would find "items illegally possessed" in violation of three statutes, including 18 USC 793. Although Trump has not been charged with any crime and may never face prosecution, his conduct arguably included some of the aggravating factors that Comey mentioned.
To start with, there is some evidence to support the inference that Trump's alleged mishandling of classified material was "intentional and willful." In January, after the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) raised concerns that Trump had improperly removed documents that were covered by the Presidential Records Act, Trump's representatives turned over 15 boxes. Noticing that some of the documents were marked as classified, NARA referred the matter to the Justice Department, which obtained additional documents from Mar-a-Lago under a grand jury subpoena in June. Around the same time, The New York Times reports, "a Trump lawyer" gave the Justice Department "a written declaration" saying "all the material marked classified in the boxes had been turned over."
Judging from what the FBI says it found last week, that was not true. The FBI presumably presented evidence to that effect, possibly based on a Trump insider's tip, in its search warrant affidavit (which, unlike the warrant itself and the inventory, remains sealed). That apparent misrepresentation may help explain why the search warrant cites not only 18 USC 793 but also 18 USC 1519, which makes it a felony, punishable by up to 20 years in prison, to knowingly conceal "any record, document, or tangible object" with "the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence" a federal investigation. Such concealment, if proven, would qualify as "efforts to obstruct justice," another aggravating factor that Comey mentioned.
Because the volume, contents, and exact location of the documents seized by the FBI are uncertain, it is not clear whether the records at Mar-a-Lago amounted to "vast quantities of materials exposed in such a way as to support an inference of intentional misconduct," another Comey criterion. The difficulty of assessing that question underlines how little information we have about the documents that were seized.
Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, one of the few Republican politicians who does not hesitate to criticize Trump, notes that "we still have a lot of unanswered questions" about the search. "Transparency was and is critically important," Hogan told ABC News on Sunday. Although unsealing the warrant and the inventory was "a step in the right direction," he said, we will continue to see "division and angry rhetoric from both sides" until we have a clearer idea of the FBI's justification for the search.
We do know that the Justice Department was concerned about the security of the documents months before the search. In a June email, according to the Times, Jay Bratt, chief of the Counterintelligence and Export Control Section of the department's National Security Division, asked Trump lawyer M. Evan Corcoran to replace the padlock on a room where boxes of government documents were stored at Mar-a-Lago with a more tamper-resistant model. "Mr. Trump's team complied," the Times says.
The Justice Department also "subpoenaed surveillance footage from Mar-a-Lago recorded over a 60-day period, including views from outside the storage room," the Times reports. According to "a person briefed on the matter," that footage "showed that, after one instance in which Justice Department officials were in contact with Mr. Trump's team, boxes were moved in and out of the room." The significance of that fact, like much about the search, remains unclear.
The third statute cited in the search warrant is 18 USC 2071, which applies to someone who "conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys" U.S. government records—a felony punishable by up to three years in prison. Like the obstruction statute, that provision does not hinge on whether a document is classified. It would apply, for example, to the "executive grant of clemency" for Roger Stone that the FBI found at Mar-a-Lago and might apply to various other unclassified items, such as the "leatherbound box of documents" and binders of photos that are also listed in the search inventory.
18 USC 793 likewise does not mention classification, referring only to information "relating to the national defense." But that phrase would be intolerably vague unless it was qualified in some way, and in practice prosecutions are limited to cases involving classified material.
Here is where Trump's defense comes in. "The very fact that these documents were present at Mar-a-Lago means they couldn't have been classified," his office says. "As we can all relate to, everyone ends up having to bring home their work from time to time. American presidents are no different. President Trump, in order to prepare for work the next day, often took documents including classified documents from the Oval Office to the residence." In light of that practice, the statement says, Trump "had a standing order that documents removed from the Oval Office and taken into the residence were deemed to be declassified." It notes that "the power to classify and declassify documents rests solely with the President of the United States."
Without denying that point, Trump's critics argue that such a policy would be highly irregular and careless. "Whatever POTUS' 'powers' might be to declassify docs," former FBI agent Asha Rangappa says on Twitter, "there are good policy and practical reasons…to follow a process, and for that process to be documented and reflected on the document markings themselves."
Rangappa says "accountability" requires that declassification of a given document be justified by a rationale dealing with the national security implications, which "allows for objections from others if the reasoning is based on an incorrect premise." She also cites the need to protect intelligence sources from "blowback." In addition to "being dangerous and bad for [national security]," she says, automatic declassification of any documents that the president happens to remove from the Oval Office would cause "confusion and inefficiency and distortions in our intelligence collection, foreign policy, and defense efforts."
If "Trump telepathically declassifies hundreds of docs on his way out," Rangappa adds, President Joe Biden "can telepathically reclassify them immediately, too. See how stupid this gets? Markings would mean nothing. No one would know how to store things."
Accepting Trump's argument that any documents at Mar-a-Lago were ipso facto declassified, notwithstanding markings to the contrary, that information would be legally available not just to him but also to the general public, assuming there was no other statutory justification for restricting access. Unless classification decisions are utterly arbitrary or were clearly wrong with regard to every document that Trump retained, that seems like a pretty reckless way to handle sensitive material. But it would be of a piece with Trump's behavior as president, which reportedly included tearing up and flushing documents that were supposed to be preserved under the Presidential Records Act.
The issues that critics like Rangappa raise go beyond the question of criminal liability. Let's say Trump's purported "standing order" means he is in the clear under 18 USC 793. Let's also stipulate that meeting the mens rea requirements for convicting him of obstruction or "willfully" concealing documents that belonged in the National Archives would be a tall order. Trump's behavior and excuses for it nevertheless provide further evidence, in case any was needed, that he is not the sort of person who can be trusted to hold any position of political power, let alone the presidency.
Back in 2016, when Trump was intent on making his opponent look bad, he claimed to be moved by the concerns of "long-term workers at the FBI," who he said were "furious" that Clinton got off with a wrist slap for recklessly endangering national security. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, Trump dismisses the FBI's avowed concerns as transparent excuses for the partisan "witch hunt" that supposedly has victimized him throughout his political career. One need not be a fan of the FBI to see that Trump's view of what qualifies as shameful and disgraceful is based on no principle beyond his petty personal interests.
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If "Trump telepathically declassifies hundreds of docs on his way out," Rangappa adds, President Joe Biden "can telepathically reclassify them immediately, too. See how stupid this gets? Markings would mean nothing. No one would know how to store things."
Well given that this person is being flippant about "telepathic" means of declassifying materials, I don't think she's seriously addressing the claim. I also don't think you can just declare something re-classified after it's been declassified because that sounds like a way to trap people for trying to publish almost anything.
She also breathlessly commented on Twitter about almost everything related to Jan. 6, so it's not like she's unbiased outsider who just came in to talk about this one issue. She really hates Trump, so she's not being especially objective when discussing this.
As for what's worse, Trump was in a position to declassify documents with basically no limits. And I'm in favor of declassification, I think it gets overused to hide records. It's an end-around for FOIA to just classify something the government doesn't feel like releasing yet.
Sssoooo what you're suggesting is that the sitting President doesn't have the ability to classify documents?
Because i think that's the direct implication of Trump's bullshit reasoning
You can't classify information that's already out there. You can't just decide that COVID-19 is classified two years into the pandemic and start prosecuting everyone who has documents on it. That would be pure nonsense.
Yea, ill give you that. But you do realize that the President doesnt have the authority to violate the presidential records act, right? That would take an act of congress.
You realize that act is a civil crime not a criminal crime right? And that these back and forth happen after every administration? For example. There were emails found on Hillary server for a non public email address for Obama the national records didn't know of and were never given. In fact much of his administration had hidden emails not turned over when he left.
"Sssoooo what you're suggesting is that the sitting President doesn't have the ability to classify documents?"
Previously declassified documents?
No. Of course not.
How the hell would that even work?
Nice Cathy Newman imitation, though, wasn't it?
Has the presidential records act ever been tested in court? It's not clear to me that congress can bind the president, who is supposedly co-equal.
(I mean, I'm not going to defend Trump here. But there are separation of powers issues.).
SCOTUS has opined that POTUS is the ultimate classification authority, PERIOD. Also, those who were his advisers, etc. have said there was a declaration that any document that required viewing in a screen room that he removed to the WH residence was declassified as long as it was in the residence. So, it is highly likely that the affidavit for the warrant is full of bovine scat. Violations of the PRA aren't a justification for an FBI raid.
Uh...NO. Executive Order 12958
Information may be reclassified after declassification and release to the public under proper authority only in accordance with the following conditions:
(1) the reclassification action is taken under the personal authority of the agency head or deputy agency head, who determines in writing that the reclassification of the information is necessary in the interest of the national security;
(2) the information may be reasonably recovered; and
(3) the reclassification action is reported promptly to the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office.
Uh...NO.
Better said 'Not exactly.' "Out there" kinda implies that the information cannot be reasonably recovered.
Not that "locked in a vault in the former President's private residence" or "stored in the National Archives" or whatever necessarily constitutes "out there"
Well we also don't know what the documents say. They could have "classified" stamps on them but the information they contain could all be public knowledge about the FISA warrants for Carter Page. Just being locked in Trump's safe doesn't mean they aren't public.
That's a good point. Many documents will be classified because a sentence or two are sensitive. Usually, the classification will appear at the top and bottom of each page of the document with "this page unclassified" added to the non-sensitive pages.
Other times you'll see classification by paragraph - same thing on top/bottom of page, and (U), (C), (S) or (TS) identifiers next to each paragraph.
#2 is going to be tough in almost all cases when it's been released to the public.
Was that executive order recently issued ?
To a large extent - no. No, he doesn't.
There are actually strict criteria for classification. It's not just 'I think this should be a secret'.
And once something is declassified *and in the public domain* even if it's reclassified it places no burden on people who have no duty to care for classified material.
And, finally, we've got multiple legal precedents where even classified material in the hands of private citizens can be released without legal liability.
Trump has no duty to protect classified material. The only thing he could be charged with is taking and possessing it.
But if he declassified it before he took it, even a subsequent reclassification imposes no duty on him as the material is already 'public'.
There are strict criteria, but nobody ever really gets in trouble for classifying information too conservatively.
Generally, nobody outside of the loop realizes that something has been unnecessarily classified because only people who are cleared and have a "need to know" are allowed access to it once it's classified.
Occasionally some organizations will notice things that don't need to be kept secret, or don't need to be kept any longer and will declassify a batch of stuff, but that pretty much always has to be initiated by someone who's cleared to see it in the first place.
Nope.
Yes. Once in the open, always open. Else it becomes an ex post facto trap.
If "Trump telepathically declassifies hundreds of docs on his way out," Rangappa adds, President Joe Biden "can telepathically reclassify them immediately, too. See how stupid this gets? Markings would mean nothing. No one would know how to store things."
An adult... a former FBI agent posted this on Twitter? I'm embarrassed for her. This sounds like an argument my tween would make fully knowing how stupid it is. "I know you have to be 18 to buy porn because it says, right there on the cover "Not for sale to minors" and I know you keep it stashed in your safe and I had to break in to access it but, you know, we're not telepaths! These rules are stupid!"
Jesus Fucking Christ there are no adults in the room.
Maybe there's reason that Rangappa is a former FBI agent.
The adults are back in charge!!! It's going great!
"buy porn"? Does your tween have any unsupervised access to the internet? What about your tween's friends? They don't have to buy anything. You lock porn in a safe while there is more free porn on the internet than anybody could ever watch. And then you finish
your post with an hysterical vulgarity. Some might say your behavior is embarrassing.
The thing is, it doesn't matter if those documents have been declassified by this standing order (which nobody seems to be able to find any documentation of). Knowingly concealing documents with intent to impede a federal investigation is a felony. And Trump's lawyers gave a written declaration that "all the material MARKED classified in the boxes had been turned over".
It doesn't matter if those documents are in fact magically declassified - they were still marked as classified, and thus were subject to have been turned over. And there is no way that Trump and his lawyers did not know that that statement was a lie.
It doesn't matter if those documents are in fact magically declassified - they were still marked as classified, and thus were subject to have been turned over.
If Trump has the documentation (and not just his say-so, obviously) that the classified docs in the boxes were declassified by him as the OCA before he left the White House, the markings on the docs in August 2022 aren't relevant at that point. It just means no one went through the boxes yet to cross out the classification markings on the docs.
Which is quite plausible, because there appears to have been substantial bureaucratic resistance to Trump's declassification efforts.
As there was swamp-critter resistance to Trump in general.
Illegal bureaucratic resistance.
No, that&s not the way classification marks work. It's not the mark that makes a document classified.
If that were the case, there are tons of publicly available documents on our nuclear program that have been declassified, put up by the government for public access, but no one got around to crossing out the classification mark.
Oh, and it would mean you could declassify just by crossing the mark out.
It wasn’t magic. He issued a memo, his last full day in office, the day before he left office, declassifying all of the Crossfire Hurricane documents.
I suppose the question then becomes what was "the boxes" was referring to. It obviously wasn't referring to every box in the world. Did some boxes with marked documents get found and moved into the storage room after the lawyers had gone through everything?
What I find curious is that he has documents labeled "sensitive compartmented information". I believe those are documents that must be signed in and out and viewed only in secure areas. How does Trump get those documents out of a secured area and to a closet in Florida, and how can the fact they weren't signed back in go unnoticed for 2 years? He's better than James Bond or the Mission Impossible Force!
SCI information is handled the same as any other classified information, there's just an extra degree of clearance and an additional background check to be cleared to access it; at least that's been the case for the SCI projects that I've been "read In" on . Because of how classification works, the President is cleared to access and considered to have a valid "need to know" for literally any piece of classified information.
What confuses me about the swirling on this is that it seems unlikely that there wasn't a properly secured SCIF established within the mansion at MaraLago when trump made the place his official residence. There's all kinds of reasons why a President might need to access sensitive information, or take a classified call (there'd definitely be a specially encrypted phone in such a facility to provide a line for secured calls), and if it's known that he'd be spending significant time at the site establishing a SCIF would seem to be just a standard part of it. I'd be amazed if there aren't also SCIF rooms set up on GWB's ranch and wherever it was that the Obamas called home while in office; the Clinton's house wouldn't have had one since they bought it when Bill was leaving office, but might have had one put in when HRC was SecState. A likely candidate for the SCIF at MaraLago would be the "45 Office" cited in the search warrant.
If all of the classified information found in the search was inside of the safe (reportedly biometric) and that safe was inside of a properly closed and locked SCIF, then there'd be no mishandling other than the lack of a current "need to know" by trump; however if he took possession of those docs while still President, the waters around that get murky and maybe the worst he may ultimately be charged with is not returning information which he no longer needed.
If the info was found outside of a SCIF, it doesn't much matter whether it was found at MarLago, the White House, FBI HQ or the NYC Port Authority Bus terminal. Storing classified info outside of a SCIF should be a slam-dunk for mishandling, although if it were in a safe in a building where Secret Service is controlling access to the premises 24/7, a creative defense lawyer might be able to make something from that.
Transmission of marked classified information (or removing the markings from it and sending it) via gmail, or storing any kind of marked data files (including emails on a server) on any computer which is connected to the outside internet is a handling violation regardless of where that computer is physically located.
As a holder of a current security clearance, I know for a fact that I would be potentially subject to prosecution, fines, and imprisonment if I had done what HRC did. Without knowing about the status of a SCIF at MaraLago, or whether the classified information seized in the raid of that site was stored inside of such a facility, I don't know for sure whether or not I'd get into trouble for doing what trump did.
He 100% definitely had a SCIF there during his presidency. There is even a picture of it on the Wikipedia article for SCIF. No idea whether or not it was decommissioned.
It should be noted that the search warrant was not for mishandling of classified information. 18 U.S.C. 793 (e) [if I remember correctly] triggers on gross negligence in handling any defense information (regardless of whether or not it is classified). I don't think that a safe with a lock suggested by the FBI in a locked room in a compound protected by the Secret Service can be considered to be gross negligence, even if it doesn't follow the rules of handling SCI information.
Personally, I think this whole thing is about 18 U.S.C. 793 (d), which criminalizes, among other things, not delivering national defense information on demand of a federal employee entitled to receive it. In other words, I don't think this has anything to do with classified data. I think this is still about the national archivists wanting official documents from Trump, and 793(d) happens to be a convenient way to turn what would normally be a civil dispute into a criminal matter.
Why anyone thought that was a good idea instead of just getting a replevin (which is functionally the same as a search warrant, but wouldn't cause the freak out this is getting), I have no idea.
They needed a search warrant because they expected to find (and clearly found) evidence of crimes that lead to the death penalty.
We know as a fact that Trump was paid by Russia while he was POTUS. The only hard part is ensuring he goes to the chair instead of wriggling out of it. This is just part of the evidence gathering process that ensures he faces justice.
Sarc I hope. Stupidity this bad is likely fatal.
What? None of the crimes being investigated with the warrant carry the death penalty.
Wouldn't these payments to Trump have been uncovered by Mueller? How incompetent do you think he was?
No, Sullum, you Stalinist clump of cancer.
Hmm. Ad hominem attack. Very nice. What exactly about his argument strikes you as "Stalinist"? (Bearing in mind that Stalinism is a discrete philosophy and theory of governance)
That's not what ad hominem is. An insult is not an ad hominem. For fucks sake. How does every retard leftist make this same mistake.
Smearing a person's character and attacking their motives rather than replying to their argument does, in fact, qualify. "You suck, almost as much as your mom; therefore, you're wrong," isn't the only species of ad hominem.
But Nardz didn't attack his motives, he just made an (accurate) observation on Sullum's character. So, no. It's not ad hominem.
What's with all the sarcasmic-tier newbies today?
Calling someone a "Stalinist clump of cancer" is, I'd say, impugning his character and implying his argument was made in bad faith.
It’s highly likely it was made in bad faith. More likely he’s ramping up his anti Trump rhetoric so he’s in consideration for Labor Day with the cool progs in the beltway, or some such bullshit. Plus, there’s a plethora of evidence form his crappy columns to support such an assertion. Even more so than there are a plethora of piñatas.
The reply button could not possibly be located in a worse place. Fuck!
Of course Nardz was impugning what little character Sullum possesses, but it's still not ad hominem.
impugning character is *always* ad hominem, it's simply not a fallacy when directed at *testimony*. But it's always a fallacy when directed at argument, even when the ad hominem is *true*, because an argument doesn't depend on the speaker's integrity.
You must be new here. All arguments are judged by the person, not the content.
Retards from all over the political spectrum make that mistake all the time.
I'm going to go ahead and indulge my compulsion for my own ad hominem attack : you might be a fucking idiot
You’re right. Sullum is just a cocksucker.
And yours is also not an ad hominem attack dumbass. Fuck.
Yes, it is. Replying to an argument with an insult counts as an ad hominem attack.
No it doesn't.
What the hell?
In the context of argumentation, an insult is an ad hominem. There is more than one kind. It's a fallacy of relevance.
Are any of you Trumpservatives acquainted with informal logic as a discipline, or did you just look up a list of fallacies and memorize the Latin words to make yourselves feel smart?
"In the context of argumentation, an insult is an ad hominem."
No.
It isn't, and never has been.
This isn't Huffpo. You can't waltz in here and start making up fallacious bullshit and not expect to get called out on it.
New shit same as the old shit.
We should end this argument and beating down this new failing faggot. He needs to learn his place.
Tell me you do not know what ad hominem means without saying you do not know what ad hominem means.
No.
Cancer clump?
Trump's behavior and excuses for it nevertheless provide further evidence, in case any was needed, that he is not the sort of person who can be trusted to hold any position of political power, let alone the presidency.
Yep
Conservaturds: "Trump is on My Team and Hillary-Bob isn't! Ergo, Trump can do NO wrong, and Hillary should be hung high for even THINKING about spitting on the sidewalk!"
Trump will commit mass murder in broad daylight, pubically, on TV viewed by millions, with Stormy Daniels by His Side, and NO conservaturds will EVER fault Him for it! They won't fault Him for SHIT!!!
https://www.cnn.com/2016/01/23/politics/donald-trump-shoot-somebody-support
Pretty much.
But God didn't anoint Hillary to save Western civilization from pedoliberals and communist China, so it's different, obviously.
This time it's different.
Not really, but then you’ve never bothered to actually understand any of their arguments.
Never-mind all those facts pointed out in this article. Like Trump was President - Hillary was NOT.. And just never-mind Hillary put that information out-to-pasture on the WWW while Trump had his locked up securely.
Whatever it takes for leftards to pull a whataboutism.....
Smoke and Mirrors and emotional garbage seems to be leftards only functions.
Mass murder? Let's tally up the number of weddings attacked by a drone strike and see which president comes out ahead; Trump or Obama?
Those who defended Hillary now have a problem that Trump.
that = with
OK. I'll admit we in #TheResistance have been predicting Drumpf would go to prison since late 2017. But this time we really, really mean it.
With Drumpf's removal from 2024 contention now assured, the clear frontrunner for the GOP nomination is Ron DeSantis. I trust Reason.com will follow MSNBC and NYT and WaPo and NPR and HuffPo and Slate and Salon and The Lincoln Project in immediately adopting an all-anti-DeSantis, all-the-time approach.
#LizCheney2024
Sorry OBL, White Mike and a couple of retards just showed up and are beating the ever living fuck out of Poe's Law.
You might need to bring out your 'A' game.
That's not really fair to OBL, LizCheney2024 is his 'A' game.
OBL....You are priceless. Please don't ever change. 🙂
Sullum's continued lying to advance leftist totalitarianism in the US looks a lot worse than Duranty's holodomor cover up.
More ad hominem attacks. Do you even have a coherent counterargument to the valid points presented in this article?
Is that you sullum?
He made an assertion, not an ad hominem attack. Stop using the words you have no idea the definition of.
who is this new retard that doesn't understand basic debate?
oh, they are a lefty. Big fucking surprise
Because everyone who thinks Donald Trump is an unprincipled, megalomaniacal shithead must be a leftist totalitarian lover of the deep state?
Well you certainly read like a leftist totalitarian lover of the deep state.
Also, go read up what constitutes ad hominem, for fuck's sake.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Right. Because I don't like Trump or his most devout followers. That's the criterion we're going with to determine who's a red-blooded, America-loving patriot and who's a Satan-worshiping communist, I guess.
Maybe you should read the article before you direct others to it. (Also, Stanford is the canonical standard for encyclopedia entries on philosophy, not Wikipedia, for future reference.) Maybe you should have read the first sentence of your article that states not all types of ad hominem are logically fallacious. Rhetorical ad hominem is far more common.
"Stanford is the canonical standard for encyclopedia entries on philosophy"
No, if anything Cambridge and Oxford would be. And are you seriously trying to pull a sourcing argument on Wiki in 2022?
Anyway, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy itself says you're full of shit:
"The ad hominem fallacy involves bringing negative aspects of an arguer, or their situation, to bear on the view they are advancing. There are three commonly recognized versions of the fallacy. The abusive ad hominem fallacy involves saying that someone’s view should not be accepted because they have some unfavorable property.
Another, more subtle version of the fallacy is the circumstantial ad hominem in which, given the circumstances in which the arguer finds him or herself, it is alleged that their position is supported by self-interest rather than by good evidence. Hence, the scientific studies produced by industrialists to show that the levels of pollution at their factories are within the law may be undeservedly rejected because they are thought to be self-serving. Yet it is possible that the studies are sound: just because what someone says is in their self-interest, does not mean it should be rejected.
The third version of the ad hominem fallacy is the tu quoque. It involves not accepting a view or a recommendation because the espouser him- or herself does not follow it. Thus, if our neighbor advises us to exercise regularly and we reject her advice on the basis that she does not exercise regularly, we commit the tu quoque fallacy: the value of advice is not wholly dependent on the integrity of the advisor.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fallacies/
You're not going to be able bluff and bullshit your way through arguments here, you know.
You can think that "Donald Trump is an unprincipled, megalomaniacal shithead" as much as you want to.
What does that have to do with falsely accusing Trump of "espionage" for political reasons?
I don't see any "valid points" presented in this article. See my responses below for how ridiculous Sullum's "analysis" is on multiple levels.
Do you think that any analogy that is unfavorable is an ad hominem?
That&s not an ad hominem. You really don't know what that means, do you?
Sullum gets a lot of things right but he is never Trumper cuck with all things Donald Trump. How can we possibly know how bad it was with Clinton since the fbi didn't raid her home? She was never really seriously investigated.
Sullum's ilk:
https://twitter.com/CBSMornings/status/1558555239170674688?t=Ou-O-QIqlNQFNWxVlMdmMQ&s=19
Today’s children are 30% less aerobically fit than their parents were at their age, a new study found.
The study points to climate change and rising temperatures adversely affecting childhood obesity, as children spend less time exercising outdoors.
[Link]
Ah yes, “climate change”. Never mind that it’s the schools themselves who delete recess and any other physical activity and then wonder why the boys are ADHD and all the kids are now fat. One would think that rising temperatures might provide for more time outside instead of less.
The schools also work hard at fagifying and emasculating the boys, so the net affect is less exercise. Otherwise things get too rough and someone might break a nail.
They're hoping to make boys fat enough to grow moobs. Then they won't need "top" surgery when they declare that they're girls.
Definitely not the two years that they kept them home and closed down pretty much all outdoor activities for a stretch of that.
Yeah, but there's been a childhood obesity epidemic long before now.
That's not the fault of climate change, of course, just lazy parents who let their kids eat crap and play on their electronic devices all day instead of getting real, actual exercise.
School policy on recess has changed as stated above. School lunches and the availability of junk food changed too. Granted, we didn't have the greatest food in my day, but soda was never a choice for a beverage and we rarely got chips.
JACOB SULLUM
Jacob Sullum continues the descent with mind numbing virus of Trump Derangement Syndrome.
The article reads like a series of whining without substance.
There can be no substance, until the affidavit is made public.
Until then any reporting with conclusions only reflects the raw bias of the reporter.
If anything, this looks like just another "We got him now" giddyfest.
We've all been through this a dozen times; with all the investigations Trump is beginning to look the like the cleanest politician in American history.
You're an idiot
Hmm. Ad hominem attack. Very nice.
Haha well damn, look at you. I see what you did there. But at least i don't try to pass it off as a valid point of debate
Why bother? You haven't done so yet.
Based on reading all of your comments and the comments of others you responded to AND using the facts of what was said by all parties in the discussion, reason and logic, you are a fool. This is NOT an ad hominem argument (by definition). You should be embarrassed, but fools often do not know they are fools so they do not get embarrassed. Please never come back as you have nothing of value to add. Oddly, the same also applies to Jacob Sullum.
Just an insult. Don't play the retards game.
Why? Cause I am right?
Idiot savant?
You have a tiny fraction if his intellect. What does that make you? Or are you too stupid to answer that question?
Sullum’s recap was pretty devoid of emotion, actually.
LOLZ
“raises national security concerns at least as serious as those raised by Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server as secretary of state. Trump has long maintained that Clinton's”
I love when my straight, non-emotional facts tell me how serious different things are. Or is “serious” a technical term I’m not familiar with?
How is having documents in boxes in a locked closet in a a locked house behind a security gate with security cameras "at least as serious" as having them on a server that can be accessed via the internet?
“That explanation raises additional questions about Trump's seemingly cavalier treatment of sensitive information”
I know, personally, when I’m doing my best not to be emotional, I refer to things as “seemingly cavalier”.
But hey, it’s early in the article and I’m just getting started. I’m sure it gets much more concrete.
“Although Trump has not been charged with any crime and may never face prosecution, his conduct arguably included some of the aggravating factors that Comey mentioned.”
Not been charged, may never face consequences, arguably included, aggravating factors…
Pretty clearly neutral, dispassionate language there Dee. So far I have no idea where Sullum stands on the topic. They should teach this in journalism school. (Unfortunately for Sullum, much “less” passionate reporting on the subject is also out there).
We've all been through this a dozen times; with all the investigations Trump is beginning to look the like the cleanest politician in American history.
There is, of course, the non-exclusive alternative that Trump's opposition is the largest, most powerful collection of mindless boobs the world has ever seen. I mean they have, out of both sides of the same mouth asserted that the guy is some sort of criminal mastermind and the dumbest, most mouth-breathing, bungling, incompetent President we've ever had. If you line up all the facts as asserted the facts point in the direction that Trump's opposition are, collectively, dumber than the dumbest President we've ever had.
"If no one is telepathic, Trump is guilty." - Shorter Asha Rangappa
The cultish Forever-Trumpers do a damn fine job keeping up with those Biden apologists in the mindless boobery department.
New ? Number two?
Just like that number 2 I dropped this morning.
Definitely less intelligent than a morning deuce.
That's because they have never had their power challenged to the core, and have always won simply because might makes right, and they literally don't know how to lose.
If you've always won, you don't know what it's like being in a real fight where the opposition is actually on par with your previously held insurmountable power.
They don't have those muscles, simply because they have never had to use them.
Part of their power was the hidden nature of what they would do. Trump forced them out of hiding, as they lost gambit after gambit against him, and showed the world what they do and how they do it. They are now dizzy with rage and frustration, with TDS messing with their perceptions of reality.
The result? Ham fisted, unsophisticated, reflexive, and now unsubtle, bufoonish plans and actions.
They have become more than wrong, they have become a mockery to be laughed at.
I remember when Bush was the stupidest, mouth-breathing idiot who couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time. And somehow at the same time was an evil genius who slyly tricked dozens of prominent Democrats in Congress to vote for his war.
"Bush was the stupidest, mouth-breathing idiot who couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time" and somehow, in a few short months engineered charges being planted in the twin towers, unbeknownst to anyone therein, to trick America into thinking Al Quaida attacked us on 9/11/01.
These brainless leftists are so dumb as to be beyond parody.
Given that no one knows what the documents seized from Trump are, The whole premise of this story is pure speculation.
How can you attempt to draw any comparison to what Hillary may have had, when she destroyed any docs she may have had?
Plus Trump, ya know, had security cameras and archives, and the documents are intact. So with Trump, someone can actually review what was there, and who actually went to where the documents were and potentially accessed them. Trump kept a chain of custody, it seems.
It says right in the blog post above that the surveillance footage shows boxes being moved in and out of the room, with no idea what was in the boxes.
Does Mar-a-Lago not have copying machines and scanners? Is there no FedEx store in Palm Beach? Once those SCI documents were taken out of secure viewing rooms who knows what happened with them.
""Once those SCI documents were taken out of secure viewing rooms who knows what happened with them.""
I'm sure the conjuncture will be put front and center as if it's known.
""It says right in the blog post above that the surveillance footage shows boxes being moved in and out of the room, with no idea what was in the boxes."'
Shredgate. I remember Hillary was sending boxes from her law firm to be shredded. The fact that she was sending things to be shredded was not actual proof she was shredding sought documents. But the anti-Hillary camp claimed it was.
And here they are again shredding documents incriminating to Democrats and planting evidence to frame Trump. Gee, looks like I can spout conspiracy nonsense with the best of veteran journalists.
Who had the key to the padlock?
Who didn’t?
Joe Biden did.
He lost it. That's why they had to break in.
Geometric logic proves the Mar-a-Lago mess boys had a duplicate key. They need to be investigated by the FBI. Maybe they'll turn up some missing strawberries too.
"...How can you attempt to draw any comparison to what Hillary may have had, when she destroyed any docs she may have had?"
TDS is rampant among Reason 'writers' and Sullum's case might well be fatal. I hope.
TDS,TDS. SQUAWK!
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled pile of shit.
Unless she was emailing herself with some kind of locally-hosted SMTP server or something, the feds know exactly what emails she had.
Or something
Ah, so that's why she destroyed 33,000 subpoenaed emails, smashed phones, crushed SIM cards and treated hard drive platters with acid. The government already had them.
To bad the government committee that subpoenaed them didn't realize it.
Mother's Lament: "treated hard drive platters with acid"
Donald Trump: "And then you acid wash them, or bleach them."
Reality: BleachBit is a piece of software, not actual bleach.
Me: *sigh*
*Sigh*
Hillary's team dipped drives in nitric acid and gave them to American Document Destruction Inc to be shredded.
https://freebeacon.com/politics/clinton-campaign-made-payments-hard-drive-document-destruction-company/
But yeah, the BleachBit thing happened too. She was a busy girl when it came to destroying storage.
Nothing in your link about acid.
"...Given that no one knows what the documents seized from Trump are, The whole premise of this story is pure speculation..."
You left out lies and bullshit claims by 'officials', but yeah, Sullum is simply parading his raging case of TDS for all to see.
TDS,TDS, SEVO want a cracker.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
The documents seized from Trump are those packed up by the GSA from his White House offices and moved to his new post-presidential offices, where they have been under 24/7 private security and secret service protection. And like all ex-presidents, Trump retains top level security clearance.
So, we do know what these documents are, and we do know that claims that he mishandled them or didn't have the right to access or keep them are ridiculous.
No, *we* do not. Maybe Trump does. Maybe the FBI and DOJ does *WE* do not.
But that doesn't stop Sullum speculating that Trump stole nuclear secrets11q!
How can you attempt to draw any comparison to what Hillary may have had, when she destroyed any docs she may have had?
There are no parallels. Trump was President, not Secretary of State. The documents, presumably are recovered/were recoverable. Trump wasn't under investigation and was cooperating with the National Archives. Clinton was obstructing the FBI's investigation of her. Trump's documents were in his possession at his residence. Clinton's email server was in the hands of a 3rd party.
"Clinton's email server was in the hands of a 3rd party."
And on the Internet. FBI says no hacks were found, but who knows, really.
Considering everything else the FBI did regarding HiLIARy's exposing secret documents to any half-assed hacker, I don't give their claim that they found no hacks, any credence.
WTF! The FBI did a thorough job - they even checked Hillary’s MySpace page.
And she had them on an Internet-accessible server versus in a secured closet, in a secured home...
https://twitter.com/TomFitton/status/1557779282566516738?t=wA8uJu4EdPLm0cYaZvIxvw&s=19
.@JudicialWatch sued DOJ/FBI last week for Crossfire Hurricane documents that should have been released under law. I wonder if the political raid on Trump has anything to do with the that other abuse of Trump.
[Link]
https://mises.org/wire/thomas-piketty-wants-bring-back-communism-guise-democratic-socialism
For the anarcho-paleocons at the Ludwig von Rothbard Institute, just about everyone to the left of Lew Rockwell is a degenerate communist.
I recognize this particular whine. Shrike said exactly the same thing, almost word for word, a month ago.
Congrats, it took me longer than usual to sniff you out, but you need some new material.
Well, Shrike fits his new sock well. He’s a new shitty sock.
I knew a Shrike on Newgrounds back in the day, but in this case I have no idea what you're talking about. Glad to know I'm not alone, though, in reaching the conclusion that Mises the man would be turning over in his grave if he knew his hard-right ancaps had adopted his name as their brand, a man who was vehemently anti-anarchist and pro-open immigration.
Yeah, but he probably wouldn't watch child porn like you do, you stupid hicklib.
Piketty is a commie as outlined in his book.
Lol. Keeping classified material on an unsecured server is much less of a risk than having it guarded by the SS. Inentionally using unsecured emails to avoid classification regulations much less worse.
Can't wait for Reason to hype the new dirty bomb narrative the FBI is pushing now.
Iikewise a president with actual classification authority choosing to declassify is much worse than a SoS without that authority removing markings to send over emails. Way worse.
Get bent Sullum. What idiocy.
Anyone else remember how Reason used to also discuss the over classification in government?
Lol.
Yes, we now need a government with more secrets.
a government with more secrets, and the ability to retroactively declare something 'secret' when they want to take down a detractor.
that surely leads to more freedom?
Hillary Clinton used a private server to conduct government business in order to avoid oversight. Then, she destroyed evidence. There are miles of daylight between the two.
Also, is it really reasonable to assume that whatever documents Trump had are legitimately a threat to national security? Since there's no inventory of what, specifically, they seized, we have no idea what the documents contained.
And given that they were seized by an agency that deliberately falsified a warrant application to the FISA secret court (which is an abomination in and of itself), and has a long history of deceitfulness, I'm pretty hesitant to just assume that they're being straight up this time. And given that Merrick Garland classified pissed off soccer moms as domestic terrorists, I'm not very inclined to take his word for it on "national security."
Not to mention the abuse of the classification process. I remember when Reason used to be against the government's overuse of classifications in order to conceal information from the public, and essentially operate in secret. But now they're just taking .gov's word for it that this is a super-serious national security issue. Kay.
"" an agency that deliberately falsified a warrant application to the FISA secret court""
You mean the same agency that manipulated DNS data to make it appear that Trump had a suspicious connection to Russia's Alpha bank. Then sold it to the law firm representing Hillary so she could paint him as a Russian asset during an election.
That agency?
You mean the agency that steered a bunch of rubes in MI to kidnap the governor and then charged them with conspiring to kidnap the governor of MI?
That agency?
Yes, that same agency. Also the agency that radicalized a mentally ill Muslim, bought him guns, and gave him a fake "car bomb" in order to bust him for terrorism.
https://theintercept.com/2015/03/16/howthefbicreatedaterrorist/
You mean the agency that encouraged and facilitated the riot on Jan 6th?
one thing you guys have to adjust in your talking points..... because her husband was also an ex-president, Hillary's shit is also under constant guard by the SS. so, the only real distinction between the two is electronic versus hard copy. (except, maybe, the exact nature of the material in question, which none of us are likely to ever know.)
None of Hillary’s docs were declassified.
neither were trump's. (go ahead... file a freedom of information request to get copies and prove me wrong.)
"Hillary's shit is also under constant guard by the SS. so, the only real distinction between the two is electronic versus hard copy"
Only if you ignore the word "server", which means "on the internet and therefore not under guard by the SS".
Nice try though.
You need to find a brain cell; there are a few here stupid enough to buy your 'arguments', but they, like you, are already brain-damaged from cases of TDS.
TDS,TDS, i can't make a reasoned argument, SQUAWK!!!
Except Maralago has been breached before....“I’m a law-abiding citizen,” Lu told the judge through a Mandarin interpreter at her sentencing hearing, according to the South Florida Sun Sentinel. “I’m an ordinary Chinese woman. I never thought I would end up in jail.”
In March of last year, another Chinese national, Yujing Zhang, passed an initial Secret Service checkpoint by passing herself off as a relative of a resort member.
Zhang, 33, was found guilty in U.S. district court of lying to a federal officer and trespassing and sentenced to eight months in prison.
That incident raised fears Zhang could have posed an intelligence threat, but U.S. experts told Reuters it was hard to believe she was a professional spy.
Maybe she wanted to rifle through Melania's unmentionables, too.
My first thought on that was the FBI was threatening Americans with a dirty bomb if we didn't stop doubting them and finding out they were behind all the plots they "thwart".
I love Sullum credulously repeating the claim that Trump was just constantly flushing documents down the toilet. Because he's a buffoon, you see, he wants to dispose of documents and that's how he does it.
Narrative as fact lives at reason now.
Did you miss that he qualified his sentence with “reportedly”? That’s a way of saying, “I’m not credulously repeating this claim. I’m flagging it as possibly not being credible.”
It may not be true but I’m going to include it anyway because it bolsters my point. Not really applause worthy. Why not bring up a lot of other stuff that might be true, like Biden exploiting every means he can to disqualify a potential 2024 opponent? That also might be true, but it’s oddly absent here.
It may not be true but I’m going to include it anyway because it bolsters my point.
It is called "informing the reader". Putting reported claims in a relevant article even if they may not be true, with the appropriate qualifiers like "reportedly" or "allegedly", so that the reader has fuller context.
Amazing how thinned-skinned and emotional some commenters are about any negative news about Trump.
All negative news about former, current, and future President Trump is fake news propaganda from the deep state because those traitors are afraid of how brilliant, incorruptible, and cosmically significant he is.
It is amazing, isn't it?
Not really. Just watch White Mike when someone criticizes ENB, Shrike if someone criticizes Soros, or you with the Democrats and Disney.
Of schoolteachers convincing their students that being uncomfortable in their body means they're trans, and if you're born with white skin you're racist.
No. That is not how anyone uses that technique.
This was an article about Joe Biden?
"That’s a way of saying, “I’m not credulously repeating this claim. I’m flagging it as possibly not being credible.”"
No, that’s a way of saying, “I know that the assertion is absolute bullshit but I want to say it anyway.”
So “Mile Laursen reportedly sucks off little boys.” is all good?
Sullum cited his source.
According to sources close to the matter Mike Laursen repotedly "Sucks off little boys"
Wow, look how shaken I am by this reporting.
Multiple sources now confirm........
No, he didn't.
No, that’s a way of saying “There’s no proof this happened but I’m going to repeat it anyway because I hate the motherfucker I’m writing about and this lets me cover my ass.”
It’s a rhetorical trick as old as time. Like saying allegedly before spouting off something that sounds completely ridiculous.
^ Exactly.
Mike and Jeff know this too, but well, they're not honest.
Reportedly, Biden has been swapped with a body double. Reportedly, Hillary Clinton eats babies after torturing them. Reportedly, Sandy Hook was a hoax. Reportedly, the Earth is flat. Reportedly, Brutus is an honorable man.
Adding "reportedly" is just lazy apophasis.
I said, "With all due respect!"
--Ricky Bobby
Flushing documents down the toilet is a good way to stop up the toilet.
How can someone who lives in a house with twentyfive fireplaces think the best way to get rid of documents is flushing them down the toilet.
The FBI wants to talk to all of us. You'll be receiving an email telling you when and where your interview is scheduled.
https://610wtvn.iheart.com/content/2022-08-13-teen-killed-after-getting-sucked-into-woodchipper/
They should subpoena literally every document belonging to the Mises Caucus.
And Angela McArdle can explain that she's a sovereign natural person not subject to USA, Inc. admiralty law.
Why?
Because of known libertarian associations with woodchippers, of course.
You don't get sucked into a woodchipper. It's not a giant vacuum cleaner.
You can get pulled in - if you ignore safety precautions and common sense and wear loose but tough clothing while working.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/08/radical-traditionalist-catholic-christian-rosary-weapon/671122/
How the Rosary Became an Extremist Symbol
The AR-15 is a sacred object among Christian nationalists. Now “radical-traditional” Catholics are bringing a sacrament of their own to the movement.
By Daniel Panneton
at this point I am getting to where I feel half of me is thinking "violence isnt the right answer, we talk, we debate things, and we come to a solution" and the other half of me is thinking "I mean the guy who just punched the hibernating bear 20 times might not DESERVE to get mauled, but damnit if we didnt tell him that was what was going to happen"
The problem with talk and debate is that you're trying to get psychotic totalitarians to not be psychotic totalitarians anymore. They are not rational, and pervasive media both allows and fuels a perception that is completely divorced from reality. You can't talk and debate an agitated schizophrenic who's got a knife to your throat- you either resign yourself to whatever he decides and hope for the best, or you use physical force to end the threat.
Leftists have crossed every line they can. They are literally cancer, they always lie, and their lives are forfeit.
Very well said. It's hard to get thru to the brainwashed masses that believe the main stream media.
People need to look outside the box and wake up. The covid virus is one of many examples of the lies that are told by the ruling class.
Perfect example of the kind of trolling for right wing nuts that never works here because the Reason commenters you hate so much are not right wing nuts. Fuck off and die.
"or you use physical force to end the threat."
There may come a day when people will need to stand up for their freedom. But talking about it on the internet right now does absolutely nothing to help, and everything to play into the establishment left's narrative about violent insurrectionists.
Beyond that, discussion isn't meant to sway people who are adamantly opposed to you, it's meant to sway the people who are out there and haven't made up their minds yet. Or at least people willing to be convinced of something even if they're initially opposed. To just declare that discussion has no purpose is to lose faith in the very principle of the first amendment, the free marketplace of ideas.
Maybe Nardz isn't a fan of that stuff, though.
No, I'm not a fan of psychotic totalitarians who shut down our businesses, locked us in our homes, took the rims off basketball hoops and filled skate parks with sand, arrested people for swimming in the ocean, made all of us, including toddlers, wear a mask everywhere in public to signal submission, then had the fucking gall to call us the bad guys.
No, I'm not a fan of psychotic totalitarians who organized months of political terrorism and called it "mostly peaceful protest" when poor neighborhoods were destroyed and dozens were killed, then declared that people aren't individuals but rather just units of an abstract identity collective defined by skin color.
No, I'm not a fan of psychotic totalitarians who do nothing but lie, rig elections, refuse to acknowledge the people have a voice and right to demand answers, and use government, media, corporate America, corrupt courts, and the education system to decide who will rule us and who will be allowed to speak.
No, I am not a fan of psychotic totalitarians who insist that we bow to their nonsense gender and racial delusions, who push for policies to starve us and make us poor, whose ideology insists we must become serfs, and who then have the fucking gall to call us intolerant and ignorant.
I'm not either, and I suspect you're right about how this is going to end up, but physical threats and violent public invective right now are pretty much the absolute worst thing we can do.
"Speak softly and carry a big stick", "keep your mouth shut and powder dry" if it ever comes down to having to stop the incipient fascism.
Yes. Jan 6 was a disgrace. We need to be as organized as the antifa jerks were when the time comes.
Shall we go on?
And you need to stop being scared of that.
Letting the regime silence debate doesn't slow the totalitarian regime down.
Nothing specific should be discussed, but the general topic of possible revolution? It's an idea that's too important to go unheard.
I'm not scared. I don't appreciate that inference.
There's nothing helpful or wise about suggesting violence and revolution on the internet right now. All it does is give the people who want to enslave us rhetorical ammunition and misplaced sympathy from the gullible.
In fact if an actual revolution ever becomes a real necessity, establishment media comments areas like this are the last place it should be mentioned.
There is some irony in that Daniel Panneton claims to be anti-fascist, but actually shares the same hatred and disdain for Catholicism as the Nazis.
Modern leftism is a combination of sovietism and nazism. It is the worst aspects of both. The similarities of recent/current left/globalist behavior to early-mid 1930s Germany are quite striking.
I'm going to again recommend a series, I think on Amazon prime but possibly Netflix, called "Hitler's Bodyguard". It's 10 episodes that are about an hour each. Though the focus is on the security apparatus, the rise, organization, and civil tactics of the nazi party are well covered.
Just trying to sell more rosaries...
https://twitter.com/tuxlemons/status/1558930715403698176?t=mWqKzbEpP4iUaWeRO9tSFQ&s=19
The leader of the free world is literally a senile, kid-sniffing crypt keeper with a soiled diaper who showers with his daughter, shakes hands with imaginary friends and says “End of quote. Repeat the line.”
Party media:
https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1558853485780766720?t=h7Os_z-rMyKLYTlhfObSXw&s=19
"Suddenly, images of Biden as a feeble septuagenarian atop a mismanaged White House have given way to those of an experienced leader, smiling behind aviator sunglasses," writes John Harwood | Analysis
[Link]
LOL! this is fucking hilarious cope
Never forget....Harwood was a moderator for a GOP debate in 2015. Weird how Dems never get hostile moderators...
He should change his name to HarHarwood.
Don't worry Nardz, it won't be too long until Putin is the leader of the "free" world (by his definition of "free", anyway). You should be happy!
LOL! Pure troll is actually a more attractive costume on you than your normal gaslighting shitweasel.
I'm pretty sure keeping an email server in your bathroom is a violation of some kind of security protocol, ergo, against the law. Whether that's better or worse than declaring everything you cart out of the office to be declassified is like trying to figure out whether one grisly murder is worse than another grisly murder with a different weapon. I don't really care if what Donald Trump did is "better", "worse", or "the same" as what Hillary Clinton did. It's absolutely and unquestionably wrong. Just because she did something that was also unquestionably wrong and got away with it is immaterial. They teach you in preschool that two wrongs don't make a right. Seriously. How hard is this?
Sullums whole argument rests on the assertion that Trump indiscriminately chose what documents to take to mar a Lago. There is no proof of this at all.
You are obviously not enrolled in one of the two political teams.
You certainly are.
Trump did nothing wrong.
How the fuck do you people still keep faith and trust in media/leftists/government?
"...Whether that's better or worse than declaring everything you cart out of the office to be declassified is like trying to figure out whether one grisly murder is worse than another grisly murder with a different weapon. I don't really care if what Donald Trump did is "better", "worse", or "the same" as what Hillary Clinton did. It's absolutely and unquestionably wrong..."
You make claims as if your opinion were worth something; they aren't, especially when you ignore pertinent facts:
De-classifying documents is a POTUS prerogative; not so with a SoS.
So, no, they are not the same, regardless of your simplistic analysis and resulting statement of false equivalence.
BTW, they also teach you early on to think before stating; you should try it.
Having them in boxes in a closet in a secure(ish) location is much different than having them Internet-accessible...
Do you really think that Trump packed up his documents one by one, the way you did when you moved out of your dorm room?
The GSA packed up Trump's documents from the WH and moved them to a secure storage area in his private offices at Mar-a-Lago. Trump was likely not involved in the process or selection of documents at all, nor is there anything untoward about the idea that an ex-president should have the documents he was working with as president available at his new office. His new, post-presidential office not only had/has excellent private security, it has 24/7 secret service protection.
Just because she did something that was also unquestionably wrong and got away with it is immaterial. They teach you in preschool that two wrongs don't make a right.
I’m not sure I buy this. The response to previous offenses seems like it is relevant. If two people do something wrong and you punish one and not the other, it’s fair to question whether the rules are legitimate. That’s what’s stunk to high heaven about the opposition to Trump in my book. They implement “novel” interpretations of the rules to “get” Trump with the implicit understanding that those interpretations will go away as soon as Trump is out of the picture.
Meanwhile, nobody has brought any charges against Trump yet. But he is a persecuted martyr already.
Clinton handled classified info on a unsecured server. All of the docs in Mar a Lago was stored in SCIF, secured by paid government staff. The DOJ took some docs back. For all intents and purposes they knew where they were. How is Trump's case worse? Two wrongs don't make a right, but one wrong got off scot free for no reason.
I might agree with you but for all the reasons others have laid out as well as the following: those documents have been there for over a year.
I’m sorry, it strains credulity that they decide to do this after the Jan 6 prime time special failed to garner the reaction they were looking for and we’re a few months away from November.
And if it was so serious, why did they wait to serve the warrant on Monday after securing it on Friday?
Could it be that they wanted to wait until Monday for the news cycle?
Nah...
it is very hard for those who don't actually care what right and wrong is.... all they care about is absolving those on their team while crucifying those on the other.
Even harder for TDDS-addled steaming piles of lefty shits who don't care what the law says.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
TDS,TDS, lefty, eat shit and die.
SQUAWK!
SEVO want a cracker.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
SQUAWK!!
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled pile of shit.
fuck off and die, TDS, TDS, SQUAWK!!!
What was unquestionably wrong? What were the super sensitive documents released to the world by being in a secure presidential residence as opposed to Hilkary leaving documents available on the internet.
Or are you one of those pro government secrecy libertarians, incapable of seeing government abuses of power?
'...raises national security concerns at least as serious as those raised by Hillary Clinton's use of a private email server as secretary of state..."
No, it doesn't. Trump had physical documents loked in a room; to compromise them, you'd have to enter a highly secure building to steal of copy them.
That hag had them on a commercial server in her home, and if every country from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe didn't hack her computer within hours of her going on-line, it's because the IT in that country is handled by the dictator's drunken cousin.
Not only were the room and the building secure, there was actually 24/7 US secret service protection on premises.
Odds are this will be a nothingburger. Its new Muller report, Steele Dossier, impeachment 4 now?
The more you go after him with manufactured charges, the more people are going to start to think you were just using manufactured charges.
The mask is slipping a bit too much nowadays
Is this really the case? The fact is that as time has progressed the former President's legal problems have mounted. Much of this is his own doing. The proper response to the document request was to return the documents and indicate that taking them was an unintentional error. Instead, the former President created an unnecessary fight over the documents. Trump's refusal to accept his lose in 2020 lead to additional investigation that could have been avoided. This is not a continuation but rather a cascade and as with all cascades they get larger as they progress. Even now people who like the former President are looking for alternative candidates saying that Trump, like Hillary Clinton, is carrying too much baggage.
He's theost investigated president in history. And never convicted of any crimes.
He's the cleanest president in history, lol
He was never convicted because he was never charged with a crime.
That's a distinction without a difference if I ever heard one.
And Al Capone's only crime was that he cheated on his taxes.
That's probably the only charge the feds could definitively prove. Burden of proof, how does it work?
Capone was a criminal kingpin, what's their excuse on Trump? They couldn't convict him because no living witness testified that he obstructed justice or conducted quid pro quo with Zelensky?
He was the head of the Executive branch, nominally including the FBI and CIA so criminal kingpin seems to fit. Not sure that's the association Biden and the DNC crime family want to push.
I.e., they couldn't even get enough evidence to charge him with a crime, let alone convict him.
Imagine thinking that the establishment wouldn't immediately try to charge Trump with a crime the second that they thought that they could.
Chemjeff believes!!!
And he was never charged with a crime, because there was never any evidence of a crime.
And when did Trump refuse to return any documents that were requested of him?
Trump's lawyers returned any and all requested documents.
Trump left the WH and his office in accordance with the law. That is all he is required to do. What he believes or says about the 2020 election is none of the FBI's or Congress' business.
But you are such a totalitarian that you want people investigated and locked up simply for holding beliefs and stating opinions that contradict the Democratic party line.
Most things can be avoided if you pre-emptively surrender.
+1000
"...In July 2016, when then–FBI Director James Comey announced that the FBI had not found enough evidence to justify criminal charges against Clinton,..."
That's a lie, Sullum; from the link to Reason's article on the matter:
"In July 2016, when then–FBI Director James Comey announced that the FBI had not found enough evidence to justify criminal charges against Clinton,"
"...Without denying that point, Trump's critics argue that such a policy would be highly irregular and careless. "Whatever POTUS' 'powers' might be to declassify docs," former FBI agent Asha Rangappa says on Twitter, "there are good policy and practical reasons…to follow a process, and for that process to be documented and reflected on the document markings themselves."..."
So what Trump did is legal, but the FBI doesn't like it? On a roll, there Sullum.
"...Rangappa says "accountability" requires that declassification of a given document be justified by a rationale dealing with the national security implications, which "allows for objections from others if the reasoning is based on an incorrect premise."..."
Nope. If it is within the POTUS powers to de-classify, some swamp critter doesn't get to come back later ans calim they were anot consulted.
Either it IS within the powers of the POTUS, or it is not.
"...If "Trump telepathically declassifies hundreds of docs on his way out," Rangappa adds, President Joe Biden "can telepathically reclassify them immediately, too. See how stupid this gets? Markings would mean nothing. No one would know how to store things."...
Total and complete bullshit. Trump didn't "telepathically" do anything; he issued a standing order. TDS rots brains and we're seeing it here.
"...Back in 2016, when Trump was intent on making his opponent look bad, he claimed to be moved by the concerns of "long-term workers at the FBI," who he said were "furious" that Clinton got off with a wrist slap for recklessly endangering national security"
Yeah, that was before we found the FBI complicit in aiding HRC's campaign with false documentation, then used by the FBI (knowing it to be such) to begin bogus 'investigations' into Trump'
s activities.
Yes, TDS rots brains, and we can all hope that, in Sullum's case it can well be fatal.
I would say that Hilary's situation is still worse. Classification is based on how much harm the information can cause if it gets out. I have heard of no indications that the information that Trump had got out. Therefore, it is a security violation, but the impact is non-existent. Hillary, on the other hand, actively sent classified information to uncleared people. By definition, the information got out and could cause the damage that classification is meant to prevent.
Can you cite where classified information was sent to uncleared people?
Wasn't it sent to Huma Abedin and/or her husband Anthony Weiner?
Everyone with access to her server.
Can you cite these fucking nuts? Trump declassified all this shit as he was THE FUCKING PRESIDENT. Hillary Clinton had no such power or any fucking business keeping a hidden server in a bathroom full of classified material. The fact that you idiots are debating this proves Trump broke fucking smooth brains.
Every email Clinton sent out went to an email address in Pakistan. Nobody knows who was receiving them. The address did not show up on the headers- it was hidden. This also means that anyone who hit "Reply all" sent the email to that same address.
This is, or was, well known, but it seems search engines aren't finding any references to it.
"This is, or was, well known, but it seems search engines aren't finding any references to it."
there was evidence, but the lizard people are hiding it. (and not one of us dedicated conspiracy nuts ever download a single copy of said evidence.)
Oh, the newest TDS-addled lefty asshole arrives to spread more bullshit!
TDS,TDS, SQUAWK!!
Eat shit and dies, asshole.
SQUAWK!!
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled pile of shit.
TDS, TDS.....
Whether it was sent to uncleared people isn't relevant. She had an unauthorized email server set up specifically to avoid FOIA, and her email account included classified documentation. Normally, shit like that would get someone thrown in prison, but Hillary knew there wouldn't be any consequences for flouting the rules so she did whatever the hell she felt like doing.
The degree to whether it's worse or not is really immaterial. The issue here is that there's one standard for those in the good graces of the Cathedral, and another for those who aren't.
I'd be fine locking Trump up and throwing away the key if they had done the same to Hillary, but even Trump didn't bother to go after her, because the swells don't get held accountable for this stuff.
"I'd be fine locking Trump up and throwing away the key if they had done the same to Hillary, but even Trump didn't bother to go after her, because the swells don't get held accountable for this stuff."
should we really create the standard that we can never punish wrongdoing if someone else got away with it? kind of like qualified immunity, but for politicians.
i get the frustration with the double standard, which is why i said from the beginning that the raid was not very smart, (the MAGA meltdown was obvious reaction) but do we really want to codify the ability of politicians to live under a different set of rules?
Eat shit and die, TDS-addled pile of shit.
SQUAWK!!!
Fuck off and die, asshole.
It doesn't have to be codified, it exists... for a certain subset of politicians.
i get that, but should we all really be OK with that? i mean, obviously, many on here are rightfully furious that Hillary was never held accountable...... but if you are using that as a justification to let Trump slide, you are kind of saying you are OK with the double standard, as long as the one it is being used for is on your team. (which means, you are OK with it.)
"i get that, but should we all really be OK with that?..."
Those of us who are not TDS-addled shit-piles seem just find with it.
TDS, TDS, SQUAWK!!!!
too dumb to understand you just said you are also OK with Hillary getting away with it......
should we really create the standard that we can never punish wrongdoing if someone else got away with it? kind of like qualified immunity, but for politicians.
Yes. That's what "no one is above the law" means.
If Hillary can get away with it, everyone should be able to get away with it.
"If Hillary can get away with it, everyone should be able to get away with it."
but that isn't what we are talking about. we are talking about letting one more privileged politician get away with it. any other grunt in the military takes home a box of classified documents, they go to jail. you are not arguing against double standards, you are arguing to extend them to your team's political figures. the FBI ain't letting any average Americans off the hook on this.
You're full of shit. Trump, as POTUS has the unlimited authority to de-classify documents.
TDS-addled assholes like you don't like it, but tough; those documents are no longer classified; he may do with them as he pleases.
authority is not proof he did.... the documents are still marked. there is no paper trail indicating any of them were declassified. they were not released. nobody without the proper clearance can see them. anyone submitting a FOIA request would not be able to get copies. (which is why nobody has any idea exactly what they were.)
sorry, bird brain, those documents are still classified. trump has no authority over classification NOW, and he has no proof he declassified any of it when he did. (because, he actually did not.)
AND.... REGARDLESS of classification, he was still required to turn those records over in accordance with the presidential records act. the classification question does not actually matter.
SQUAWK!!
Considering that analysis of Clinton's email server reveals that it was likely infiltrated by hackers, no, Trump's situation is not nearly as bad as what Clinton did.
Again, please cite where Hillary Clinton's server was hacked. Records show attempts, the same as most servers out there, however no actual success in breaching the server.
https://dailycaller.com/2018/08/27/china-hacked-clinton-server/
And spare me the bootlicking talking point that the FBI found no evidence of intrusion. No ody believes anything the FBI says at this point.
The 2 dozen dead CIA "assets" in China from 2014ish is pretty solid circumstantial evidence that Hillary's server was compromised years before the 2016 election.
Correction: 2010-2012, when she was Secretary of State
While the President has the authority to unclassify materials, that does not mean the processes necessary for materials to be unclassified does not go on. The process to remove the classification process must be documented or in the end there would be no way to tell what is and what is not classified. So, I would expect that some WH staffer had the task of recording what the President moved from the WH offices to the residence. That documentation, record or records moved, should be available to address the question of the Mar-a-log records current classifications.
Or he just made the whole standing order thing up off the cuff, this week.
The president isn't bound by those processes.
Oh, that's cute, you think that there is some consistent, central registry of classified materials. Sorry, there isn't.
Are you dumb enough to think that the president packed his own boxes, the way you do when you move from your studio apartment back to your parents' basement?
The boxes were packed by the GSA; if there were highly sensitive materials in those boxes, then the GSA packed them.
I've seen your idiocy long enough to realize you are too fucking stupid to understand what this means:
"...While the President has the authority to unclassify materials, that does not mean the processes necessary for materials to be unclassified does not go on...."
As a pile of lefty shit, it is totally understandable that your stupidity extends this far.
Either the POTUS has the authority to do so, or the POTUS doesn't. The whining of some swamp critter regarding Trump not consulting with here can be easily seen as the special-pleading of that swamp critter and you repeating it as ample evidence of your education ending at, oh, the 6th grade.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Sevo, I concur.
not too stupid... just dishonest
Not dishonest, just evil.
lefty shit, lefty shit, fuck off and die...
SQUAWK.
Eat shit and dies, asshole.
SQUAWK!!!!!!!!!!
Eat shit and die, asshole.
“Either the POTUS has the authority to do so, or the POTUS doesn't.”
Bingo. You nailed the crux of the matter. My guess would be that the courts would define POTUS’ declassification authority as plenary.
Whatever “process” exists after he does so would only apply to the bureaucrats, subordinates. We aren’t going to wait around for lady bureaucrat in the declassification center to rubber stamp his order after her smoke break for it to prevail.
Let's look at a real world example.
Trump ordered the Department of Justice to declassify documents pertaining to the Crossfire Hurricane operation that targeted Trump's campaign for surveillance during the 2016 election. There's an official memo showing that this happened. The DoJ hasn't released any of those documents and they're being sued for it.
Pop Quiz: At what point in time did the information become declassified?
A: When the duly elected President of the United States said he wanted it done.
B: When someone wrote the memo ordering the DoJ to do at the President said.
C: The information is still classified because the DoJ hasn't released it.
D: Some other time during the process.
Hint: If your answer is anything other than A, it means you believe the ultimate power to declassify rests in the hands of some unelected functionary rather than the President of hte United States.
You talk about this matter as if it is a matter of religious “belief”, and I’m sure it is an almost religious matter to the most Trump faithful.
None of us commenters are experts on the legalities of declassification, but there is an awful lot of armchair expertise around here.
You didn't answer.
Never mind, you answered below and the answer is you're too stupid to know the difference between information and documents.
You play loose with the difference between information and documents in your original comment:
https://reason.com/2022/08/14/donald-trumps-handling-of-classified-material-looks-worse-than-hillary-clintons/?comments=true#comment-9650546
No, I didn't. I referred to documents because Trump did in the order I cited. And I noted the DoJ is sitting on those documents, because they were given those documents by Trump when he issued the order.
But I very specifically asked when did the information in those documents become declassified. Sorry if that was too subtle a concept for you to grasp.
Pure casuistry, trying to play games with the “information” vs the “document”.
And you're trying to distract from the fact that you think unelected paper-shufflers have the actual power to declassify information. You were given an SCOTUS decision that refutes your claim and everything.
"The process to remove the classification process must be documented or in the end there would be no way to tell what is and what is not classified."
that is the whole purpose of the excuse. so he could have basically anything in those boxes and just pretend it was OK because he said so.
lefty shit, lefty shit, fuck off and die...
SQUAWK
k.....
Eat shit and die, asshole.
Sevo want a cracker. SQUAWK!!!
Eat shit and die, asshole.
SQUAWK!!!
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Seeing as the President is the ultimate and singular authority on what, when, and how information gets declassified, it's a valid argument. The prosecution would have to prove Trump didn't declassify the information, and good luck with that.
all available documentation shows the material is classified. they don't have to prove anything.
even if you want to believe the nonsense notion that Trump can declassify with a word, it is kind of a stupid thing to do..... it leaves you with boxes of documents listed as classified in your possession, and no evidence they are not. it is kind of the reason there is always a paper trail for declassification.
What Eva, who cars about the old news cycl anymore?
WE’RE SAVED!!!!! Michelle Obama will run in 2024!!!!
https://youtu.be/gU8DWptKc0I
Evs not eva
She's too lazy to run, they'll have to carry her.
"Looks Worse"
She doesn't even pull off a suit as well as he does.
I don't ever need to read someone discussing Hillary pulling off a suit.
Just lie back and think of Bill in a blue dress.
That makes it worse.
We've all seen Epstein's painting
Hillary didn't pull off her suit. That's what Huma Abedin was for.
She couldn't.
There were too many struts, binders, braces and scaffolding under that 'suit'.
Reminds me of the Borg Queen, whose upper torso snapped into the rest of the body.
18 USC 793
Ctrl+f "president" 2 results:
Ctrl+f: "vice" 0/0 results
Ctrl+f: "secretary" 0/0 results
"President, Secretary of State, what's the difference? Herpity derpity doo!" - Jacob Sullum
Great points!
^ How To Refute An Entire Jacob Sullum Article With This One Neat Trick.
She should have been President so it's the same! REEEEEEEEEEEE!
/The Resistance.
Trump had a bunch of boxes of old paper documents stored off-line in a locked and guarded room in his basement, surrounded 24/7 by secret service. Even IF that contained actually sensitive materials (rather than just love letters from Kim), it would be safe. Trump also has the authority to declassify at will. Furthermore, Trump isn't responsible for this, the GSA packed up his documents.
Hillary herself ran an insecure server in her bathroom, likely in order to avoid government record keeping requirements. Her server that was likely hacked by foreign adversaries, and contained real-time information about active policies and actions. On top of that, she deliberately destroyed evidence when people found out about it.
You have to be a total imbecile to think that Trump's handling of materials is worse than Hillary's.
And he is right.
Hillary herself ran an insecure server in her bathroom, likely in order to avoid government record keeping requirements. Her server that was likely hacked by foreign adversaries, and contained real-time information about active policies and actions.
I don't know the guys who were running Hillary's server, so I am reluctant to comment on whether the server was hacked or not. It is pretty factually known that even if the servers weren't actually stored in a bathroom closet, they were stored in the business's office, which was a residential apartment... that didn't belong to the Clintons.
A question on the scope of this law as applies to presidents in general. For the purpose of this statute, would it matter if a former president only had copies and not the originals?
Even if it applied to presidents, the statute applies to documents only in specific circumstances, not to arbitrary federal documents.
How partisan and/or dumb do you have to be to even give such a stupid argument a mention?
If you still don't get it: yes, Biden can reclassify documents, but that doesn't make Trump's actions retroactively illegal.
"...you still don't get it: yes, Biden can reclassify documents, but that doesn't make Trump's actions retroactively illegal..."
Further the claim that a POTUS-issued "standing order" somehow equates with 'telepathy'.
Sullum is an asshole with a raging (we can hope, fatal) case of TDS, but copy/pasting that idiot's comments uncritically would not have passed anyone acting as an editor rather than a TDS-addled asshole offering opinions.
And for my part, I'm skeptical of the existence of the standing order, to the extent that I'm going to want to see evidence of it. But that doesn't mean I think it would illegal for the President to do that, especially since he could privately review documents and then reclassify them the next day or the next week with no loss.
I'm skeptical of the existence of the standing order, to the extent that I'm going to want to see evidence of it.
I don't disagree, but given the last part of your statement, IDK how hard it should be bothered pulling on that thread. The President is the ultimate classification power, obviously him handing the docs over to a foreign adversary would be a problem but we're not talking about that here. This kinda begs the question if some pogue walks onto any one of the golf courses or shooting ranges that Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump, or Biden happens to be on and hands him classified documents that are later returned, did the President "steal" those documents?
Well, the reason I'd look into it is because it could completely exonerate Trump if it's true. But if Trump made it up on the spot and there's no evidence of this order, it's pretty fucking brazen of him to just do that, and that's also worth knowing. Especially since it would be a pointless lie since he doesn't have to vouch for every single document he touched, just the ones he had at Mar-a-Lago, and he doesn't need any kind of standing order in place to use to declassify.
Regardless, the story here isn't that the former President endangered national security because there's no evidence that happened. The story here is about the overreach of authority by the FBI to get an overly broad search warrant, executing it on a political adversary of the current administration, a man against whom the AG may have a specific grudge, to target him for political gain or to try to disqualify him for running. It's naked partisanship being used in the criminal justice system.
"Well, the reason I'd look into it is because it could completely exonerate Trump if it's true..."
Trump is a veteran of RE development in NYC; such blanket orders to subordinates are pretty much a given. Been a while since running even a ~20 subordinate organization, but a directive to issue a 'standing order' ("SOP", last time I was involved) meant the subordinate had better do so.
Regardless, the story here isn't that the former President endangered national security because there's no evidence that happened. The story here is about the overreach of authority by the FBI to get an overly broad search warrant, executing it on a political adversary of the current administration, a man against whom the AG may have a specific grudge, to target him for political gain or to try to disqualify him for running. It's naked partisanship being used in the criminal justice system.
Right. I don't think it was a brazen lie any more than 'wiretapping' was a brazen lie. Turn over enough rocks and somebody CIA, NSA, DOJ, FBI, NYPD... was eavesdropping. I don't think he just assumed he could take documents out of the WH and, if he did, he assumed it because Obama did it, VP Biden did it, SOS Clinton did it, Bush did it, Pres. Clinton did it... Maybe getting into an argument about how every President in history could carry secure documents wherever they wanted, except Trump, may be worth it. Just seems kinda nitty gritty to me, but IANAL.
Ex-presidents are generally considered to have the highest security clearance, and their offices are protected by the secret service. That's why the issue of "classification" really just doesn't matter.
The only reason we are talking about this is because Democrats have always considered Trump to be illegitimate and are determined to mistreat him as an ex-president.
Correct; he is not a legitimate 'former president'; the SOB beat the hag HRC!
'Nuff said; not a swamp critter and threatening to all swap critters.
Trump 2024!
Biden cannot reclassify unclassified documents.
It notes that "the power to classify and declassify documents rests solely with the President of the United States."
Without denying that point, Trump's critics argue that such a policy would be highly irregular and careless.
So his critics agree that he absolutely had full authority to declassify everything he allegedly had at Mar-a-lago. What it comes down to is that no honest person can claim Trump lacked the authority to declassify everything, even if it was unwise to do so. On that basis, what authority can the FBI possibly have to execute a warrant? They'd probably be required to go through less-intrusive steps to get contested documents, such as the issuance of a subpoena, which doesn't seem to have happened.
Plus there's the excessively broad FBI warrant allowing to claim all documents created between 2017 and 2021. Surely civil libertarians should have some issues with that, especially when done on a high-profile political opponent of the administration?
"So his critics agree that he absolutely had full authority to declassify everything he allegedly had at Mar-a-lago."
Don't agree at all. That's something to be settled in courts, not by a bunch of us armchair legal experts.
Without denying that point, Trump's critics argue that such a policy would be highly irregular and careless
Mike will continue to ignore that part.
I am a critic of Trump and I don’t agree.
Go read some analysis of whether the President simply has the power to declassify documents at whim. He does not.
The Constitution and a SCOTUS decision say you're wrong. The President has the authority to declassify any information he chooses, at any time he chooses, by any method he deems appropriate. Full stop.
Navy v Egan 1987 is the USSC case.
He actually does. Per the law as well as Obama EO on the matter.
We don't have a system of laws based on Mike's ignorance.
"So his critics agree that he absolutely had full authority to declassify everything he allegedly had at Mar-a-lago."
Graybox shitbag admits the paucity of the charges, but is too stupid to understand.
Gee, would you trust the Supreme Court on that? They've already ruled that POTUS has that powe, not every POTUS but Trump. Yes there have been cases on that,
Cite please.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/484/518/
Mike will now pretend he never had this cite.
From the opinion:
The President, after all, is the "Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States." U.S.Const., Art. II, § 2. His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security and to determine whether an individual is sufficiently trustworthy to occupy a position in the Executive Branch that will give that person access to such information flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant.
So, as others have asked, Biden can declare any of the documents at Mar-a-Lago classified by verbal order?
He can, but if that information is already known, you can't prosecute based on having knowledge of it while it wasn't classified.
Also, you seem to keep confusing 'documents' with 'information.' Classifying a document doesn't do shit if the same words are written in piecemeal in scattered other areas. Information is classified or not, and documents are altered based on the information they contain.
The Mar-a-Lago matter concerns the handling of _documents_.
Oh, good, then Trump can just write the same information and new documents and it's cool. Correct?
Perhaps. I don’t pretend to be an armchair expert.
He had the *authority* to do so, but did he actually exercise that authority while he had it?
Having the authority does not necessarily mean without following protocols.
I have a pop quiz question higher up in the comments for you to peruse and answer, please.
Here's a link to it.
https://reason.com/2022/08/14/donald-trumps-handling-of-classified-material-looks-worse-than-hillary-clintons/?comments=true#comment-9650546
Answer: The document is not declassified until it has been altered to indicate declassification.
Fail. The question wasn't about documents, it was about information.
So, why aren’t you talking about documents, since documents are what the Mar-a-Lago case revolves around.
Let Trump tell the world he made copies of the documents with the Classified markings removed and see what the answer is.
He didn’t do that.
I studied military archaeology in college. How that relates here is that we did a lot of battlefield archaeology. One of our primary source materials were recon and invasion maps made before the battles. Very often they were still marked "secret" or even "top secret".
Before the battle, they were critical military secrets. After the battle, they became souvenirs.
And it is not just invasion maps. Photographs, equipment manuals, lots of that stuff can be found with the original classification markings intact. When you receive copies from places like the National Archives, they are probably going to have notes about when they were declassified and on whose authority.
Failure to not the specifics of declassification on the document does not make it still classified.
The law has been posted for you. The Supreme Court ruling has been posted for you. And on Saturday I gave you Obama EO exempting the president from procedures. Bush had one as well.
Again. The law is not based on your ignorance.
"What it comes down to is that no honest person can claim Trump lacked the authority to declassify everything, even if it was unwise to do so."
this seems to be a key talking point, but there is one giant hole in it.... just because he had the authority, there is no evidence he did declassify anything. there is a process to declassify documents that includes a paper trail, yet no such paper trail seems to exist for anything they recovered. (it can't be done verbally.) 11 boxes is a lot of documents for nobody to have any record of any of them being declassified.
also, the presidential records act does not actually care if the documents were classified or not. so.... saying he declassified them meaning he knows what documents are in question..... means throwing the "didn't pack/ship/store personally" argument right out the window and admitting to knowingly breaking the law.
i do have issues with the way the FBI handled this. presidential records act or not, i don't think anyone actually expects an indictment out of this. they can't without very blatant and public hypocrisy since they let Hillary slide, and that does create a situation where prosecuting him does more damage than letting it go. i think they just wanted the documents back, and that could have been done without blowing the world up.
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/memorandum-declassification-certain-materials-related-fbis-crossfire-hurricane-investigation/
Here's the official memo where he said it. No confusion at all.
did you even read that?
".....a binder of materials related to the Federal Bureau of investigation’s Crossfire Hurricane investigation. "
how the fuck do you stupid fucks think "a binder of materials" (on ONE clearly defined subject, that is most definitely not SCI) covers 20-some fucking boxes of documents?
seriously..... what part of that memo covers "multiple boxes of unspecified documents that i will claim were declassified at some future point?"
You won't find these civil libertarian types among Reason writers, they're more likely to parrot Salon or Jokobin.
former FBI agent Asha Rangappa says on Twitter
This is
CNNReason:Is
Starbuck's new cupthe FBI's new claim bringingpeopleTrump to tears?No, but we'll find
twoone Tweetslike we do every year.Of course, it does (to you).
If you don't know, "Wow! This is really going to upset the 'libertarians' at Reason," is something of a sarcastic punchline on other sites, because we know full well, that there is no infringement of the civil liberties of Donald Trump or his associates that you won't defend.
A few obvious differences:
1. The President has the inherent power to declassify anything, so literally is incapable of illegally possessing classified material. The Secretary of State does not possess this power. I have heard it suggested he may not have followed the "proper" declassification procedures. The power is inherent in the Presidency, not contingent on filing the proper TPS reports. You might argue he was careless, but you can't get a search warrant for the careless, only the criminal.
2. I doubt Donald Trump packed his own boxes or even much supervised it. Do you think he was saying, "Don't forget the nuclear codes."
3. And perhaps most obviously, a paper in a box in a locked room at Donald Trump's house is infinitely more secure than an email passing through unsecured email servers. In fact, it is almost certain that Hillary Clinton's emails were compromised and seen by foreign enemies.
Perhaps if the FBI ever returns its attention to harassing suspected terrorists rather than Donald Trump and his associates, the "libertarians" here will rediscover their principles.
"The President has the inherent power to declassify anything, so literally is incapable of illegally possessing classified material."
Trump is not the President.
Does it magically reclassify when he leaves office? If he declassified it before Biden was sworn in, it's declassified.
Not gonna read the bullshit in the gray box; eat shit and die, asshole.
Trump issued a "standing order" to de-classify all documents moved to Mar-a-Lago, which, by all accounts is within the authority of a POTUS.
For the TDS addled lefty shits unfamiliar with the issue, a "standing order" is a directive from the person in charge that all documents/files/whatever being treated in this manner way are to be filed thus.
The swamp critter cited by the TDS-addled asshole Sullum claims: "Rangappa says "accountability" requires that declassification of a given document be justified by a rationale dealing with the national security implications, which "allows for objections from others if the reasoning is based on an incorrect premise."
Which presumes a condition not in evidence; either the POTUS has that authority, or s/he doesn't.
"The power is inherent in the Presidency, not contingent on filing the proper TPS reports."
You are familiar with all applicable law on this matter?
I'm familiar with the only law that matters on the subject, the Constitution, specifically the part that says, "The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America."
Classification and declassification are inherently executive functions, ergo, the power ultimately lies with the president.
So, armchair analysis. Got it.
Sorry I couldn't dumb it down enough for you, kid. I tried.
Lol. Mike has shown above to be arguing completely from ignorance and then pulls this quip.
The power is inherent in the Presidency, not contingent on filing the proper TPS reports.
Okay then. So all of that classified information that was on Hillary's server, wasn't really classified then because Obama too had a "standing order" that it was all declassified. I mean, why not? I'm sure if you ask Obama now he'd say that there was.
I’m willing to acknowledge that if you’re willing to acknowledge that deleting 33000 subpoenaed emails is a far cry from handing the documents over.
You're right! They are absolutely different situations.
Interesting theory. When a warrant is sworn out against Hillary Clinton, and her house is raided, I'll be happy to discuss it.
So, we can get a list somewhere of what documents were declassified to know they fall under the standing order then, right? A list of with whom the information was shared so that we can be sure that Obama, or whichever adult in the room in history, didn't just accidentally obliterate the Intelligence Security apparatus by granting blanket declassification power to every intern in the administration, right?
That was really the complaint about Clinton, that this is/was all done with a wink and a nod that any given desk pogue, including the ones like Snowden, Winner, and Manning, which they were actively seeking to prosecute wouldn't get. The law seems written such that the privilege extends only to the President and documents and his possession but, you know, if previous adults in the room have effectively tortured the bright red line into oblivion, it's interesting that, suddenly, there's a bright red line and a former President alone is on the other side.
A list of with whom the information was shared so that we can be sure that Obama, or whichever adult in the room in history, didn't just accidentally obliterate the Intelligence Security apparatus by granting blanket declassification power to every intern in the administration, right?
Why is such a list necessary? The president's powers are ABSOLUTE right? He can declassify whatever the fuck he wants for whatever reason he wants and he doesn't have to write anything down. It is enough that Obama finds someone willing to speak publicly on his behalf that there was a standing order when he was president to declassify anything he wanted as a standing order. All this tut-tutting about 'national security' is besides the point. The point is that
Trump'sObama's powers to decide whatever he wants as declassified remains unchallenged.That’s what several armchair experts here are saying, although I suspect they only believe in absolute Predidential power to declassify information when it’s President Trump doing it.
Well, you'd be continuing your impressive streak of being wrong.
Why is such a list necessary?
Uh, I laid that out and Rangappa even points out that reliance on telepathy is a stupid policy. Stupid people following stupid policies isn't exactly itself immoral. Now when telepathy exonerates Clinton serving her own interests and indicts Snowden serving the interests of everyone bound by The Constitution, then it crosses the line from being stupid to immoral or evil.
"...Perhaps if the FBI ever returns its attention to harassing suspected terrorists rather than Donald Trump and his associates, the "libertarians" here will rediscover their principles..."
We can hope, but it might well take the re-election of Trump; the swamp critters are testing their limits.
FD Wof....I've come to the conclusion that we have a new legal school of thought called: TrumpLaw.
It is crazy how much the 'Establishment' is actually doing to stop POTUS Trump from even running again. This kind of behavior has never happened before in our Republic. Not even during the Civil War period. It is really amazing to watch.
It just tells me that if they oppose this guy so much, that alone is reason enough to put him back in. If he does get back in, payback is gonna be a bitch.
Wait, when was Hillary president and had the power to declassify documents?
When she won the election in 2016. That was before the Russians suddenly hacked in and stole it from her.
No it doesn't.
SCOTLAND GOES WOKE
Jerry Sadowitz had his show cancelled at the Edinburgh fringe because its content was “extreme in its racism, sexism, homophobia and misogyny,” promoters have said.
The comedian, whose material has for decades been provocatively and unashamedly offensive, had what was meant to be the second of two shows pulled because of an unprecedented number of complaints, the Pleasance theatre in Edinburgh said.
The cancellation led to concerns being expressed by fellow comedians at the fringe, including Richard Herring who called it “a very worrying development”. Many people wanted more detail about the reasons for cancelling a show titled Jerry Sadowitz: Not for Anyone.
On Sunday the Pleasance said: “Due to numerous complaints, we became immediately aware of content that was considered, among other things, extreme in its racism, sexism, homophobia and misogyny. We will not associate with content which attacks people’s dignity, and the language used on stage was, in our view, completely unacceptable.
“A large number of people walked out of Jerry Sadowitz’s show as they felt uncomfortable and unsafe to remain in the venue. We have received an unprecedented number of complaints that could not be ignored and we had a duty to respond. The subsequent abuse directed to our teams is also equally unacceptable.”
The Pleasance said racism, homophobia, sexism and misogynistic language had no place in its venues.
“In a changing world, stories and language that were once accepted on stage, whether performed in character or not, need to be challenged. There is a line that we will not cross at the Pleasance, and it was our view that this line was crossed on this occasion,” it said.
https://share.newsbreak.com/1lcoy19y
It just about kilt me to read this
You can take our lives. But you can never take OUR WOKENESS!!!
No True Snowflake
Yeah.
Normies: We don't know what all the fuss is about.
Edinburgh Ambassador: The fuss is aboot our citizens! It's aboot not censoring our art. It's aboot... [the American delegation begins to crack up] It's aboot... [he scans the room] What's so goddamn funny?!
Normies: [recovering] N-nothing, nothing. Uh, could you tell us again what your argument is all *ab-OUT*?
Minister: This is not aboot diplomacy, this is aboot dignity... [the American delegates chuckle] This is aboot respect. This is about realizing that humor is... [the American delegation cracks up again]
Edinburgh Ambassador: You guys are dicks!
It sure seems like, more and more, Trump treated the presidency as if he were the CEO or company owner, rather than the President.
A CEO is accountable only to the board, which I would imagine Trump would analogize to "the people". The President however is accountable not just to the public but to the other coequal branches of government. He can't just change the rules on his own like a CEO can. He's got to follow the rules set by Congress, even if they are stupid and out-of-date, even if they were established by the other team.
So this whole document thing sure sounds to me like Trump was behaving like a CEO, not a president. He took documents home from work to read them. Why wouldn't he? That is what all executives do. He was extremely nonchalant about the rules surrounding those documents. After all CEOs are the ones who make the rules, right? And if anyone objects he can just wave his magic CEO wand and rearrange the rules after the fact to justify his actions.
If the legislative branch can impose rules on the executive branch how are they coequal?
Operative phrases: "which I would imagine", "It sure seems like", "sure sounds to me like"
And if those documents really are declassified, then yeah why not publish them all? Trump should publish all of them. I have no doubt he made copies. So go ahead and publish them. They're no longer state secrets, right? So let us all see them.
This argument seems suspicious. If it was illegal for Trump to declassify the documents for his own use post-term, it seems that the same rule would apply while he was in office. In that case, taking them Mar-A-Lago is what would be illegal. But, I’m highly skeptical Bush or Obama would never take classified material to their homes. The restriction would effectively bar time away from the White House.
There is a vast difference between the Secretary of State and the President as far as document classification is concerned.
Primarily, the President has plenary powers over the classification and declassification of documents. "Plenary" means unqualified and absolute. There is almost nothing else in US law that compares with that particular presidential power.
There are even specific prohibitions for congress of other parts of the government from attempting to usurp that power, by requiring any sort of application process or bureaucratic oversight of the process.
Once they become a Former President, they still have access to all the documents that pertain to the presidency during their term.
For those of us who have worked regularly with the classification system, this really looks like a show of power by the current administration. It is like they picked the one absolute in our law, and are saying "our reach and power exceeds that of even the constitution, we will do what we want, fear us"
There are even supposed experts who are arguing that Trump is the one person on earth who cannot legally posses any documents relating to his own term as President, even personal ones.
"..."Plenary" means unqualified and absolute. There is almost nothing else in US law that compares with that particular presidential power..."
Which makes this lefty shit whine irrelevant:
"Without denying that point, Trump's critics argue that such a policy would be highly irregular and careless. "Whatever POTUS' 'powers' might be to declassify docs," former FBI agent Asha Rangappa says on Twitter, "there are good policy and practical reasons…to follow a process, and for that process to be documented and reflected on the document markings themselves."..."
Ms. Rangappa should both read the Constitution which she is sworn to uphold, or, given her raging case of TDS, eat shit and die. I'd prefer the latter; the world would be a better place.
"...Around the same time, The New York Times reports, "a Trump lawyer" gave the Justice Department "a written declaration" saying "all the material marked classified in the boxes had been turned over."
Judging from what the FBI says it found last week, that was not true..."
Ruh, roh; got him! And the TDS-addled asshole Sullum is thrilled! The walls are closing in!
Yep, quite possibly some documents no longer "classified" (by the POTUS legal authority to de-classify them) may not have been turned over! He might not have turned over documents which were formerly "classified" and no longer were!
Most corrupt administration ever!
Sullum, stuff your TDS up your ass; your head wants company. And then fuck off and die, steaming pile of shit.
TDS, TDS, fuck off and die. SQUAWK.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
eat shit and die, eat shit and die, Sevo want a cracker.
seriously, i have met parrots with more range in what they say than you.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
SQUAWK...........
Eat shit and die, asshole.
eat shit and die, eat shit and die, SQUAWK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fuck off and die, steaming pile of shit.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/brother-marine-killed-botched-afghan-pullout-commits-suicide-1-year-memorial
https://www.theepochtimes.com/ray-epps-told-fbi-he-expected-a-bomb-attack-near-the-capitol-on-january-6-documents-show_4655405.html?utm_source=partner&utm_campaign=ZeroHedge
When James Ray Epps Sr. first called the FBI regarding his January 2021 activities in Washington D.C., he didn’t mention how he implored protesters in several locations to go inside the Capitol, but he later told an agent that he expected a bomb would detonate on a side street near the Capitol.
"In two interviews with the FBI in 2021, Epps explained his actions on Jan. 5 and Jan. 6. He admitted he was guilty of trespassing on restricted Capitol grounds and confessed to urging protesters to go to—and into—the Capitol on Jan. 6.
Despite the admissions, the FBI never arrested Epps and he was not charged by the U.S. Department of Justice with any Jan. 6 crimes. The non-action has fueled a crop of theories that he might have been working for the FBI or another agency."
"An agent asked for clarification: “Oh, you mean like a terrorist act?”
“Right, like a terrorist act,” Epps said.
The agents did not press Epps on what led him to believe there would be an explosion, nor did they ask about the two alleged pipe bombs found outside the Republican and Democrat party headquarters, each just blocks from the Capitol. The RNC pipe bomb was placed near the corner of the Capitol Hill Club facing a side street, similar to the description Epps offered.
The devices did not detonate and the FBI has not arrested anyone in those cases."
The bomb at DNC headquarters?
Think he knows the guy who planted it?
The main difference is that one is the Lord and Savior of the Greatest America that ever was and will be Great Again - and the other is an ugly corrupt progtard commie slut who has always hated an America that is Great Beautiful White and/or Yoodge.
No, the main difference is that TDS- addles asshole like you will continue to, assholic piles of shit as you are, that 'the walls are closing in'
Eat shit and die, steaming pile of lefty shit,
TDS, TDS, fuck off and die... SQUAWK!!
Fuck off and die, asshole.
fuck off and die, fuck off and die, TDS, TDS, SQUAWK!
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Iron law of the leftist: confession by projection
Another:
https://twitter.com/kait_tiffany/status/1558143724982501382?t=m13mpl3wfL9CYcpAMmt21A&s=19
i wrote about the right's embrace of Jane's Revenge, which can serve the same purpose as the notion of Antifa did in delegitimizing mass protest
[Link]
"the right... delegitimizing mass protest"
The fucking gall.
https://twitter.com/TimothyNerozzi/status/1558145319665369089?t=LBoJtmVOITeaYnY2eZLfhA&s=19
I just read this entire article and the thesis seems to be that yes, pregnancy centers are being set on fire and churches are being vandalized, but it's irresponsible for Republicans to complain about it.
Even assuming that everything that Trump is accused of in this article is true, Hillary is still worse. The appropriate authorities knew where the records were, when they were requested they were returned, they were always locked up securely, none of these records were downloadable in real time. Contrast Hillary who had records on an unsecured server that (at least according to some stories) the government didn't know about, that can and was hacked and was accessible in real time.
Really at least TRY to be credible.
Boxes of documents were taken in and out of the locked area at Mar-a-Lago. Mar-a-Lago has a copier, scanners, fax machines, a FedEx office somewhere near, smart phones with cameras.
What I find interesting is that the DOJ had to go to this magistrate, anti-Trumper Reinhart, because the magistrate on duty was unavailable on Friday afternoon. How convenient and what a coincidence! It was so important they couldn't wait for the on-duty magistrate to be available. Then, after getting the search warrant from the Magistrate of their choice, they waited three days to execute it. Some emergency!
"A lot worst.." You are talking about President's as if they are your regular office employee. "A lot worse than Hillary Clinton...". For what we know now, none of the Mar-a-lago documents were in digital format. All of Hillary's documents were digital, held on an unsecured device, open to hacking. She further used some of this information to launch a campaign to discredit a sitting President and she then destroyed all of the elements she had in her possession. All through this she continuously lied to all authorities conducting investigations.
Interestingly the author fails to recognize that the Secretary of State also has authority to declassify material, but not being President, Hillary Clinton should have used the proper protocol to declassify any of what was in her possession, but did not; therefore she did destroy over 30,000 documents to hide the trace that she was posing a National Risk by creating a lie concerning a sitting President.
Executive Order 13526—Classified
National Security Information Memorandum of December 29, 2009— Implementation of the Executive Order ‘‘Classified National Security Information’’
PART 1 - Original Classification
"Sec. 1.3. Classification Authority. (a) The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by:
(1) the President and the Vice President;
(2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and ..."
Donald Trump, like his predecessor, has the authority to declassify without using the Bureaucratic protocol. The idea that Donald Trump would change, modify or destroy the content of paper copies of what he held is ridiculous...they were copies of original documents still held by the ISOO.
The Big argument concerning SCI material was, last week, that the President had no authority to declassify such documents, which I found out is inexact as the President also has the final word on declassifying SCI material... USC 42 Se, 2163 c) Joint determination on atomic weapons; Presidential determination on disagreement: "...and if the Commission and the Department of Defense do not agree, the determination shall be made by the President."
You appear to desire that the Republic become a Parliamentary system where Nancy Pelosi is Both Queen and Head of State and where every time opposing views are in discord you call in the Judiciary and Law enforcement to get your way...This is called a "Police State". Ever since Donald Trump became President in 2016, Nancy's Congress rediscovered the "Police" powers of the Legislative Branch and has made it her obligation to bring the Police every time she doesn't get what she wants...
Yet you may have forgotten that since then even SCOTUS felt oblige to specify that some things are better left to Politics for a solution, than through the Courts, when the source of the conflict is purely Political and no other dimension implicating the Law is present. Obama brought 33 million files with him to Chicago and was never bothered by anyone, and yet he claimed that he reneged on his power to declassify, implying that all those documents were still classified.
Donald Trump is not an "Enemy of the State" as your breath pushed on us all through your presentation... He just has a very different view than you and your mêmes of what the Country is and should become... This is Legitimate and Politics.
I’m for small government and if that means letting me Trump rape my own mother I say live free I’d die amiright guys?
What useless neverbeens lol
Reason's insane TDS appears again.
First the Sec. of State is not the President. The President can declassify anything at any time. Alan Dershowitz went over this on NewsMax. The Sec. of State cannot. Also Trump has archives, like all Presidents take for their eventual Presidential library. Hillary had a secret hidden server with current classified and secret information. That in itself is illegal. Even the lowest service person is trained on this in boot camp in case they ever have to handle that kind of information and they can tell you Hillary should be in prison for what she did.
Trump was working with the government. Hillary wiped her server AFTER she was subpoenaed. A violation of the law, yet she was not hand cuffed and locked up in jail like Trump's advisors.
There are also many unanswered questions on Jan. 6th. Why did Pelosi turn down Trump's request for the National Guard that day? Why did Pelosi do nothing when given intelligence there would be a riot that day? Why has Pelsoi not released that intelligence and her communication on Jan. 6th? Because it does not point to Trump? Why was Ray Epps the man on hundreds of cell phone videos being the first person to incite the break in of the Capitol, the man on the FBi's most wanted list, let go instead of in jail with the rest of the Jan. 6th defendants? Why was the PA women, that had never been to the Capitol in her life, but had a bull horn and directed people where to go in the Capitol at home on house arrest instead of in Jail like the rest of the Jan. 6th defendants? How is it there where people ready and waiting on top of the Capitol with rappelling gear when the riot started? How did they get past Capitol security and on the roof BEFORE the riot?
TDS is a terrible disease, even worse for people who claim to be unbiased non-partisan, libertarian journalist. Reason writers should be ashamed of themselves. They don't have to be Trump supporters, but their Trump hate is neither objective or helpful.
Libertarians are the most submissive people on the planet.
Put down the keyboards and suck his little dick in person. Better yet, let him cheat you in person before betraying your trust and calling you a loser after he is done using you.
Meanwhile imbeciles like you clap like trained seals for a man so obviously mentally bereft that he's forgotten how to ride a bicycle and pretend the adults are back in charge again while inflation is at 40-year highs.
There are two and a half years difference in age between Biden and Trump. Both are mentally failing old geezers.
No no, Trump is a bumbling incompetent, yet diabolically clever criminal mastermind. Biden is a dignified erstwhile champion of the little guy, and as sharp as a tack, and anything to the contrary is treasonous slander.
Get your MSDNC talking points straight.
Gosh, it’s almost like I was expressing my own thoughts rather than a talking point.
Be sure everyone forgets about *intent* in all of this...
Since Trump was always pushing to "Make America Great Again" instead of putting America in harms way (as Hillary did) which is the general direction of the Nazi(National Socialist) leftard party. I'd assume on good faith that if Trump had any *intent* what-so-ever to use those classified documents it would be expose the treasonous Nazi-Party for what they are in order to save America instead of sending them to Hunter Biden in Ukrane to use in market espionage against the USA.
The writers entire rationale...."Trump is guilty because I don't like him".
He isn’t even arguing a rationale. He’s recapping news with a rhetorical question used to tie the whole thing together.
The reading comprehension around here… sigh…
So far all of the accusations against Trump have turned out to be garbage once the facts came out. Russia collusion was total BS, remember the call with Ukraine? Lot's of innuendo and then Trump released the entire transcript and nothing wrong at all.
The FBI and DOJ now have zero credibility. They need to prove they are not continuing to abuse power, ignore the constitution. Time for them to be assumed guilty until proven innocent as they have been doing with their abuse of power.
Educate yourself tapp. This is from Vo5 of the GOP majority Senate Intel Comm Report of Aug 2020. Much more at the link.
"The Committee found that Russian President Vladimir Putin directed the hack-andleak campaign targeting the DNC, DCCC, and the Clinton Campaign. Moscow's intent was to damage the Clinton Campaign and tarnish what it expected might be a Clinton presidential administration, help the Trump Campaign after Trump became the presumptive Republican nominee, and generally undermine the U.S. democratic process. The Committee's findings are based on a variety of information, including raw intelligence reporting. ...
,,,In addition to publishing the stolen documents, the Russian personas used social engineering to seed information with specific individuals associated with the Trump Campaign. The GRU also relied on U.S. social media platforms and media attention for its influence operations. -WikiLeaks actively sought, and played, a key role in the Russian campaign and knew it was assisting a Russian intelligence influence effort. The Committee found significant indications that Julian Assan e and WikiLeaks have benefited from Russian government support
While the GRU and WikiLeaks were releasing hacked documents, the Trump Campaign sought to maximize the impact of those materials to aid Trump's electoral prospects. To do so, the Trump Campaign took actions to obtain advance notice about WikiLeaks releases of Clinton emails; took steps to obtain inside information about the content of releases once WikiLeaks began to publish stolen information; created messaging strategies to promote and share the materials in anticipation of and following their release; and encouraged further theft of information and continued leaks. (U) Trump and senior Campaign officials sought to obtain advance information about WikiLeaks through Roger Stone. In spring 2016, prior to Assange's public announcements, Stone advised the Campaign that WikiLeaks would be releasing materials harmful to Clinton. Following the July 22 DNC release, Trump and the Campaign believed that Roger Stone had known of the release and had inside access to WikiLeaks, and repeatedly communicated with Stone about WikiLeaks throughout the summer and fall of 2016. Trump and other senior Campaign officials specifically directed Stone to obtain information about upcoming document releases relating to Clinton and report back. At their direction, Stone took action to gain inside knowledge for the Campaign and shared his purported knowledge directly with Trump and senior Campaign officials on multiple occasions. Trump and the Campaign believed that Stone had inside information and expressed satisfaction that Stone's information suggested more releases would be forthcoming.
Some of the individuals the GRU targeted for outreach with the Gucci fer 2.0 persona were closely associated with the Trump Campaign, such as long-time Trump advisor Roger Stone.1249 On August 5, 2016, Stone penned an opinion piece asserting that Guccifer 2.0, not the Russians, had hacked the DNC, and repeating the false claims made by the GRU on the Guccifer 2.0 website and Twitter account.12
In addition to disseminating hacked materials through its own personas, the GRU gave information to WikiLeaks as part of a joint effort to secure wider distribution of stolen DNC documents and John Podesta emails. WikiLeaks opted to release those materials, first on July 22 and later on an ongoing basis between October 7 and the election. WikiLeaks also actively solicited and then released the documents for maximum effect, despite mounting evidence that they had been stolen by Russian government hackers. Notably, this was not the first instance that WikiLeaks had taken actions for the purpose of harming U.S. interests. Nor is it the only instance of contact between the Russian government and WikiLeaks, which have a history of parallel and sometimes coordinated actions in attacking U.S. institutions.
The Russian government has pursued a relationship with Julian Assange and WikiLeaks that includes formal partnerships with state-owned media platforms, government assistance for WikiLeaks associates and sources, and information sharing. This relationship has existed since at least 2012 and reflects an alignment between the Russian government and WikiLeaks in seeking to undermine U.S. institutions and security. (U) RT (formerly Russia Today) has provided both beneficial coverage ofWikiLeaks and a formal, compensated media platform for Assange. RT first signed a contract with Assange
(U) While the GRU and WikiLeaks were coordinating the release of hacked pNC, DCCC, and Podesta documents, Trump and senior Campaign officials sought information relating to "missing" Hillary Clinton emails as part of the Campaign's opposition research and press strategies. Beginning in April or May 2016, Roger Stone repeatedly cc;mveyed to Trump and senior Campaign staff that WikiLeaks would be releasing information damaging to Clinton. After the July 22 WikiLeaks release, Trump and senior Campaign officials believed Stone had access to non-public information about WikiLeaks' s ability and intent to release emails harmful to Clinton. (U) Thereafter, Trump directed Campaign officials to stay in touch with Roger Stone about future WikiLeaks activities regarding Clinton-related emails. Manafort in tum tasked Stone to contact Julian Assange, and Stone endeavored to reach Assange through several intermediaries. Stone reported back to senior Campaign officials and· associates, and to Trump directly, and provided advance informatio~ about another expected release relating to John Podesta, which he said would be damaging to Clinton. After WikiLeaks published the Podesta emails on October 7, Trump and the Campaign believed Stone had again acquired accurate, nonpublic information. The Committee could not reliably trace the provision of non-public information from WikiLeaks to Stone, and as a result. could not evaluate the full scope of Stone's non-public knowledge of WikiLeaks's activities. (U) The Trump Campaign strategically monitored and promoted the WikiLeaks releases of John Podesta's emails from October 7 until the· election.• The Campaign tried to cast doubton the October 7 joint DHS/ODNT assessment formally attributing the activity to Russia, and was indifferent to the significance of acquiring, promoting, or disseminating materials from a Russian intelligence services hack-and-leak campaign.....
...At approximately 4:32 p.m. on October 7-approximately 32 minutes after the release of the Access Hollywood tape-WikiLeaks released 2,050 emails that the GRU had stolen from John Podesta, repeatedly announcing the leak on Twitter and linking to a searchable archive of the documents.1677
Corsi said that after the October 7 WikiLeaks release, he and Stone agreed that they deserve.d credit and that."Trump should reward us."1682 However, Corsi said that Stone was concerned about having advance information about the Podesta release, and that Stone recruited . Corsi to make sure no one knew Stone had advance knowledge of that information. After the October 7 release, Corsi claimed that Stone directed him to delete emails relating to the Podesta information.1683 As outlined in his indictment and presented at trial, in subsequent congressional testim~ny to the HPSCI, Stone hid his communications with Corsi about WikiLeaks, and instead identified Credico as his intermediary; he also concealed communications he made directing both Corsi and Credico to obtain advance information about future WikiLeaks releases; and he made misleading and false statements about his communications with the Trump Campaign and individuals associated with the Campaign.1684 Following this testimony, Corsi said that Stone directed him to "stick to the plan"; Stone also threatened Credico to prevent him from testifying · to HPSCI and contradicting Stone's story.....
Trump, in written responses to the SCO, stated: "I do not recall discussing WikiLeaks with [Stone], nor do I recall being aware of Mr. Stone having discussed WikiLeaks. with individuals associated with my campaign."1624 Trump further claimed that he had "no recollection of the specifics of any conversations I had with Mr. Stone between June 1, 2016 and November 8, 2016."1625 Despite Trump's recollection, the Committee ass~sses that Trump did, in fact, speak with Stone about WikiLeaks and with members of his Campaign about Stone's access to WikiLeaks on multiple occasions. ...
...Despite the contemporaneous statement by the U.S. Government warning of Russian responsibility for the hacking and leaking of the DNC, DCCC, and Clinton Campaign documents and emails, the Trump Campaign considered the release of these materials to be its "October surprise."1691 ....
...While the Campaign was using the WikiLeaks documents, Trump cast doubt on the assessment that Russian government hackers were responsible for the hack-and-leak campaign. ..."
There's much more.
https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/press/senate-intel-releases-volume-5-bipartisan-russia-report
Yeah the committee found the goods. That is why literally no one was ever prosecuted for anything except lying to obtain a warrant against Carter page.
That report report is two years old. Just do everyone and yourself a favor and just shut up. It is just embarrassing. Go post lies where someone might be dumb enough to believe you. Stop trolling a board where everyone just laughs at you.
And make your bed. Your mom shouldn't have to do that for you.
Translation: Yeahyeahyeahyeahyeahyeagh .... I can't hear you!......Yeahyeahyeahyeahyeahyeagh........
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
lol...
Hillary dropping open-ended security emails is a-okay...
Trumps campaign having access to that carelessness is horrible and criminal and blah, blah, blah....
And Trump having people like him in Russia enough to run advertisements is the end of the world.
I don't think you leftards even realize how much Nazi(National Socialist) Gov-God worshipping you actually do.
He's guilty cause he was against Nazi(National Socialists) continuation of conquering the USA.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Fuck off and die, Asshole.
You just gave two examples where there was found to be quite a bit of substance to the accusations.
Not defending Trump, but setting up a server to purposely thwart security is worse than what Trump engaged is. Time will tell about the legality of the Standing Declassification Order. If this stands up then there would be zero declassified documents regardless of their markings.
With Hillary Clinton she was purposely was receiving all correspondence classified or not through a rogue email server that was not secure.
Clearly a difference where at least with the present knowledge, Hillary Clinton's action was worse. Regardless Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump and Joe Biden are all despicable characters, although the hidden ruling elitist are even less trustworthy.
Time will tell about the legality of the Standing Declassification Order.
There is no reasonable legal case for the order not being valid. Dipshits like you can hope otherwise but it isn't going to happen.
There is no reasonable legal case for the order not being valid.
Except, for starters, that we don't even know if it exists.
"...Time will tell about the legality of the Standing Declassification Order..."
So you hope someone will, post hoc, change the law and make Trump guilty of something?
Stuff your TDS up your ass, shit pile.
The top priority should be future reforms so your grandchildren won’t inherit this flawed system. We have 2 justice systems instead of equal justice under law. Comparing elites treatment while ignoring the little people is not justice.
If Trump avoids criminal indictment, we should make people like CIA agent John Kiriakou, Reality Winner, Chelsea Manning, Thomas Drake, Edward Snowden, etc whole again in every way with a Biden presidential pardon and financial reimbursement.
People like Kiriakou, Winner, Manning, Drake, Snowden and more upheld their constitutional Oath of Office after the Bush Administration systematically dismantled internal and legal whistleblowing channels. The result an explosion of leaks that were legal before 2000 (before Bush disabled this system). Only the little guys get punished.
Anything less, indict and convict the elites that are never held accountable.
Trump was not under the same rules and laws as the others.
Yeah, he's got the precedence, conformance with the law, and general awareness of reality fucked up.
Manning and Snowden leaked/blew the whistle under Obama, not Bush. Snowden raised his Constitutional concerns within the chain of command, actually whistleblowing, before taking and releasing the documents. Manning only raised his gender issues with the COC. Additionally, Manning already has been pardoned. In addition to the point you made, the counter-proposal inherent in his argument, indict Trump, ignore Clinton, and continue to persecute Drake, Winner, Snowden, etc. doesn't resolve the "Some animals are more equal than others." issue. Really, if he were being honest or principled, the argument would be "If we pardoned Manning and/or *either* Trump or Clinton continues to go unindicted, we should pardon Drake, Winner, Snowden, etc."
"...Really, if he were being honest or principled,..."
We all know the chances of a TDS-addled asshole doing that!
Good point.
"...If Trump avoids criminal indictment..."
For WHAT, you pathetic piece of shit? Being Donald Trump?
Lock him up!
Keep trying. You are just making him more popular. It must be such a strange existence to be as stupid as someone like you. I can't imagine what life must be like being that stupid. It gives me the chills to even think about it.
https://morningconsult.com/2022/08/11/fbi-raid-increases-trumps-2024-primary-support/
Popular with the losers he attracts and represents so well - he's never won a vote and never will, but hey, that makes him perfect for you and your crowd.
Lock him up!
Fuck off and die, Asshole.
SQUAWK!!!!>..
Fuck off and die, Asshole.
SQUAWK!!!!!!!
Fuck off and die, asshole.
he's never won a vote
Gracious, that sounds like dangerous election results denial, which I hear is tantamount to treason these days.
I understand the sentiment, but the best practical move for the Democrats would be to press no charges, taking the wind out of the sails of their opponents making a martyr out of Trump.
Which would turn the FBI into the DNC's private smash-and-grab service. Well, even more than it already is. Brilliant strategy.
Lemme see if I get this: a peacefully executed search warrant was a “smash-and-grab”.
I love how Sulmn is now willing to admit Hillary should go to prison years after the fact when he and everyone else knows that is never going to happen. At the time when it mattered, Sullumn and indeed of reason said no such thing. Now that it can't ever happen and claiming it suits their purposes, Sullumn thinks well maybe Hillary should have gone to prison. Sullumn is all about being consistent like that.
As has been pointed out above, the President has the authority to declassify anything while the Sec State does not. So, if Trump say he says they were declassified, they were. At most you have a paperwork error. Moreover, the documents were stored in a safe in a home guarded by the secret service. This in contrast to Hillary who did not have the authority to declassify that Trump did and stored thousands of electronic documents on an unsecured, unencrypted home server. Hillary might as well have posted the documents to wikileaks.
I know Sullumn is not a smart man. That said, even he can't be this stupid. He has to know what a lie this column is. What a slime ball he must be. What is it like to get paid to do nothing but lie? Not lie in order to make the government prove the guilt of someone, which at least serves the purpose of due process. Lie in service of a corrupt and stupid elite. What a sad existence that must be.
https://reason.com/2016/07/06/hillary-clintons-extreme-carelessness-wi/
I mean, Sullum did call it a federal felony back at the time he was writing about Hillary not being prosecuted. So I'm not sure if he's being inconsistent here.
https://reason.com/2016/07/08/fbi-head-says-prosecuting-hillary-clinto/
Then again, he also wrote that, where he applauded Comey for saying he wouldn't prosecute for gross negligence because it's not a mens rea crime.
Yeah, she didn't mean any harm leaving the documents in an open box in the back of a pickup truck!
Sullum is a TDS-addled pile of shit.
As has been pointed out above, the President has the authority to declassify anything while the Sec State does not.
As pointed out above, I'm sure that if you asked Obama now whether there was a "standing order" when he was president to declassify any document he wanted, he would say that there was and that therefore all the documents in Hillary's possession were declassified. So, case closed!
You really are not that bright, jeffy. Spamming this ridiculous argument only highlights it.
He would not because the flood of FOIA requests that would result would bury DC in a sheaf of papers a mile deep.
Except that he couldn't do that retroactively and could not do it after he left office.
So, no Obama couldn't save Hillary. The stuff was classified when she put it on the server. Declassifying it later doesn't undo the crime. That you think it does just show how fucking stupid you are.
Moreover, regardless of classification, it was evidence in an investigation *of her* and she destroyed it.
"Donald Trump's Handling of Classified Material Looks Worse Than Hillary Clinton's"
Only if you take the FBI and DOJ's word for it. Or, rather, 'anonymous sources within . . .'
Got a couple good articles on, Sullum - and one bashing Trump on something he actually did!.
But now we're back with the TDS.
TDS just means "oh no, something said something bad about my daddy" to you lot.
Total disregard for the truth in all of it. Imagine being as pathetic as you all are defending this pile of excrement.
"truth in all of it"
Leftards try to Nazify(National Socialism) the USA.
Trumps administration tried to De-Nazify it....
There is nothing pathetic or pile of excrement to the USA as defined by the U.S. Constitution. If you feel that way; you should feel free to MOVE.
"But it would be of a piece with Trump's behavior as president, which reportedly included tearing up and flushing documents that were supposed to be preserved under the Presidential Records Act."
I choose to read the "tearing up" part to mean crying rather than as a synonym for ripping up and the mental imagery is hilarious.
"Looks"?
It most certainly is. Clinton could've easily went to prison (and probably should've, just like Colin Powell and everyone else who did the same damn thing.) And it would be even easier to argue that the entire Trump family should given they used cell phones for official business, etc. too.
But this is so far beyond the pale it's incredible. He deserves to be hung for all to see.
"There are probably two dozen people, or more, who should be convicted for the crimes Trump is guilty of, but fuck equality under the law, Trump's the one who should hang." - raspberrydinners
Pretty brazen. Brazenly stupid.
You: we should only send Democrats to prison, and I don't give a fuck what for.
You tell me what Donald Trump was doing with highly sensitive classified material related to nuclear weapons in his house as a private citizen. Light reading?
"...You tell me what Donald Trump was doing with highly sensitive classified material related to nuclear weapons in his house as a private citizen. Light reading?..."
What business is that of yours, and why would anyone waste time trying to explain anything to a fucking ignoramus like you?
Because as a member of the American polity, they belong to me.
No, they don't shitbag. You, unlike a POTUS have no right to even peer upon them.
Further:
"Trump has legal authority to declassify intelligence"
[...]
"President Trump tweeted Tuesday morning that he had the "absolute right" to share information about national security with Russian officials in the White House last week, after The Washington Post reported that the information was highly sensitive and classified.
[...]
Executive Order 13526
As president, Trump has the legal power to declassify information. He also has the authority to share information with whomever he wants, including foreign adversaries..."
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-legal-authority-declassify-intelligence/story?id=47436559
He is welcome to do with those as he pleases and you can kindly fuck offf and dies, TDS-addled pile of shit.
He doesn't have the right to declassify shit. He's not a president. And he certainly doesn't have the right to maintain possession of stolen government documents.
This is interesting, I hope we find out more about this.
The Justice Department also "subpoenaed surveillance footage from Mar-a-Lago recorded over a 60-day period, including views from outside the storage room," the Times reports. According to "a person briefed on the matter," that footage "showed that, after one instance in which Justice Department officials were in contact with Mr. Trump's team, boxes were moved in and out of the room." The significance of that fact, like much about the search, remains unclear.
So, DOJ asked the Trump people questions about the documents, and the Trump people went and examined the documents in order to answer the DOJ questions. After which, they returned them to secure storage.
Maybe. Maybe not. Nobody knows.
Yeah, this looks pretty two faced. Demands to arrest Hillary for using personal computer for official emails, but Donald is innocent for taking classified data home.
While I'm sure Team Red will explain the nuances in excruciating detail, it still sounds like the same broad category of minor malfeasance involving official communications. "It's bad when Democrats do it, it's fine when Republicans do it," seems to be the motto around the commentariat.
For the record neither person should go to jail (pending further investigation), I'm just commenting on the naked hypocrisy.
The hypocrisy is the FBI setting a precedent and then blatantly violating it for naked partisan purposes.
The DOJ decides whom to prosecute. The FBI does investigations.
"Yeah, this looks pretty two faced. Demands to arrest Hillary for using personal computer for official emails, but Donald is innocent for taking classified data home..."
TDS-addled asshole proves once more that TDS rots the brain.
You stupid shit, it's not classified; Trump declassified all materials going to Mar A Logo.
Stuff your TDS up your ass.
TDS,TDS, Sevo want a cracker...
Fuck off and die, asshole.
"Just because she did something that was also unquestionably wrong and got away with it is immaterial. They teach you in preschool that two wrongs don't make a right."
Sullum . . . smdh . . . that is not what that saying means.
The thing is, we actually KNOW what Hillary's handling was like. (Awful.) We only have allegations as to what Trump's was like.
Sure, Trump looks worse if you assume all the allegations are true. Why the hell would you? Because the feds have some kind of record of exemplary behavior where Trump is concerned?
If you turn it around, Trump is at liberty to destroy 30,000 documents that are part of an investigation against him. For which no reasonable prosecutor would bring charges.
Here's at least one major difference between Clinton and Trump's allegations.
Clinton kept her's on an unsecured server, meaning it was available to anyone all over the entire planet.
Trump's were physical records kept in a safe, available only to people who can gain access to that physical location.
Those are not the same thing at all.
Not to mention the scope of a POTUS control of, and access to classified material.
A SoS has no such authority nor access.
She created sensitive documents on that server. That server was proven to have been hacked by a adversary county. Hillary knew that she had the server, used it and that shows intent.
Trump did not pack those boxes, GSA staffers do for every President when the transition of office takes place. Presidents are busy, not packing boxes. Obama has over thirty million documents he took with him when he left office he promised to digitize, he has not digitized even one. No one has raided Obama's homes. Nothing shows Trump had any intent, except to work with the government to make sure the documents were in order.
Everything points to what Hillary did as worse. Hiding, and intent.
It is just another attempt to keep Trump from running.
This Fucking Rag is Bullshit.
I only have to read 3 Propaganda pieces in the first 2 days of my signing up, to see they are crap. If I want Crap, I can go to VOX or a 100 other shit sites. Buh, Bye.
Reason used to be on libertariannews.org. They were removed for their biased news reporting.
Awesome. Don’t let the door hit you.
Executive orders most recently issued in 2003 by George W. Bush and Barack Obama in 2009 specifically exempt the president and vice president from having to follow the stringent declassification procedures every other federal agency and official must follow.
So, I guess that would excuse Obama and his 30,000,000 pages of classified information, but not Hillary. Hmmmm
Obama did no such thing and the 30 million docs you refer to are under the control of the National Archives as the law requires. If you read a newspaper you would know that the National Archives specifically refuted that piece of bullshit from Trump on Friday.
Eat shit and die, lying Asshole.
No they are not, All presidents have documents for their presidential libraries. I just watch a NewsMax report on this fact. Minutes ago. Someone is lying to you.
What newspapers are you reading? The WaPO? The NY Times? The ones that retracted Russia collusion. The pee tape. Trump getting rich from being president. Find the fraud. Bountygate. The capitol policeman died from a blow to the head by a fire extingusher.
The ones that said the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian propaganda? The ones that refuse to report on the Durham investigation? The ones that refuse to report on the Ashely Biden diary?
The newspapers that say we are not in a recession? The news papers the cheer everything Biden does?
Yeah I believe everything these guys print. (sarc)
"But the National Archives and Records Administration, or NARA, which preserves and maintains records after a president leaves office, confirmed on Friday afternoon that Mr. Obama had turned over his documents — classified and unclassified — as required under the Presidential Records Act of 1978.
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Continue reading the main story
The National Archives “assumed exclusive legal and physical custody of Obama presidential records when President Barack Obama left office in 2017, in accordance with the Presidential Records Act,” the statement said. “NARA moved approximately 30 million pages of unclassified records to a NARA facility in the Chicago area, where they are maintained exclusively by NARA. Additionally, NARA maintains the classified Obama presidential records in a NARA facility in the Washington, D.C., area.”
“As required by the P.R.A.,” the statement added, referring to the Presidential Records Act, “former President Obama has no control over where and how NARA stores the presidential records of his administration.”
A spokesman for Mr. Trump did not immediately respond to a request for comment...."
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/12/us/politics/obama-national-archives.html
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Fuck off and die, Asshole.
“I just watch a NewsMax report on this fact.”
Parody, right?
A real stretch to say that documents inside a locked room in a building guarded by the Secret Service constitute more of a risk than confidential material retained on a totally unsecured server available to be hacked by anyone in the world.
Trump's docs include those of the highest security classification and he purposefully boxed them up and hauled them away from the White house. The very few found on Hillary's server were not and were even not clearly marked as classified at all. She did not box up and haul away any materials.
As to his declaring all classified materials taken to the WH private quarters no longer classified, that's bullshit and does not follow the specific rules for a president de-classifying materials. Additionally, Bolton - the National Security Advisor for over a year - said that never happened, he never heard of that, and he would know in his position.
You guys will defend anything this pig of a man does, so no surprise you're making fools of yourselves again over him.
I won't defend DJT for anything, but having boxes of files in your house (arguably not a good thing and should be dealt with) versus transmitting State Department material over an unsecured private email server (clearly was not dealt with) is okay then?
And FBI Director Comey himself said there were plenty of top secret, secret and confidential, documents in the Clinton emails...so....
Fuck off and die, lying Asshole.
It's FOX News that's lying to you. Just turn it off. You will actually get happier, even though the problems of the real world are in fact worse than the ones you are obsessed with.
You, parrot of every lying lefty propaganda sheet, accuse me of being influenced by a news program I don't watch?
You're really putting the STUPID bar down on the deck, asshole.
Uh...what does Fox News have to do with this? You sound almost as bitter as Matt Drudge (or whoever has been the petty person responsible for editing the Drudge Report since 2019).
When Drudge hasn't been publishing anti-Trump and pro-Biden/pro-DNC articles, he's been publishing articles about "transgender rights," scientific research that would help fight the prospect of aging and sex robots.
Reading between the lines, it seems that Matt Drudge (or whoever is running the site) is a "they/them" person who was offended by Trump ignoring "they/their" policy goals dealing with transgender rights. That person is also fearful of growing old while strangely obsessed with the idea of sex robots.
Drudge used to be a great libertarian. Somewhere along the line, I think that he surrendered his little "L" libertarian card to play the more hysteria-inducing of-the-moment "T" from the LGBTQxyz+ card. His "T" values outweighed his lower-case "L" values.
Don't recognize the handle, but Tony is the professional gay "victim", regardless of an active support of issues such as gay marriage here.
But more importantly, he's a fucking brain-dead lefty shit with (what we hope) is a fatal case of TDS.
Eat shit and die, shitbag Tony! Make the world a better place, your family proud and your dog happy.
Matt Drudge is a gay man who clearly felt there was a line in the sand he would not cross in service of propaganda for the Republican party, and it's one many tens of millions of people would not cross either because Donald Trump is such an obviously revolting criminal and the most spectacular treasoner in American history.
Is that you, Rachel? You sound just like Rachel Maddow amalgamated with one of those "but Trump is evil" woke students majoring in the humanities at a local community college.
"...because Donald Trump is such an obviously revolting criminal and the most spectacular treasoner in American history."
Notice Tony's total disconnect from reality: Trump has been investigated by about every prosecutor in the US continually for, what 5-1/2 years now, and what did they find?
Well, several people who know him and some who worked for him had some unpaid parking tickets, or some such.
And yet Tony spouts that bullshit as if we should accept it since it is his opinion and that of several other TDS-addled piles of shit.
It's widely suspected that Drudge sold the Drudge Report back in 2017, there were massive changes at the site that year. Whatever happened, the changes cratered the site's traffic, and whoever is running it seems not to care.
The cool thing about being president is that there is literally no higher authority on document classification.
The idea that anyone else would have the authority to control the process by imposing paperwork or reporting restrictions was actually addressed by the Supreme Court fairly early in the process.
They used the word Plenary, which means that no person or organization can impose conditions on his handling of such documents.
As long as the documents predate the end of his term, he is clear. Beyond that, if he wants to go back and review other documents from his term stored anywhere within government archives, he can do so. To do so after his term ends does require paperwork.
In the last part of his term, Trump declassified a bunch of records relating to Crossfire Hurricane and the Clinton campaign. Because he is naive, he passed those on to other agencies so that they could have sensitive or personal information redacted for release. What the agencies did instead, is delay the process until his term ran out.
It is reasonable to believe that the documents the FBI is after are copies of the documents Trump wanted released, and retained so that they would not just vanish. Plus, it gave them the opportunity to sort through all his personal files, including strategic legal communications. I bet the National Archives request was primarily a pretense. The Archives have issues with every president. In their view, every single photo and document from their term should be property of the archives.
Boy, that’s a boatload of assumptions.
So, it seems Trump was, once again, subject to a bogus 'investigation'. Not surprising.
Trump's docs include those of the highest security classification and he purposefully boxed them up and hauled them away from the White house.
No, the GSA did that, Joe Fuckface.
False. You're lying (or pretending) that "top secret" documents must be held inside of some vault inside of the White House. In reality, many such documents are moved around from office to office (and mobile office to mobile office).
As the Commander-in-Chief of the nation's military and executive branch, the President has more authority to declassify documents than the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon.
Let's be clear: This was an issue with the National Archives -- run by an ardent Democrat -- who whined excessively about it as if Trump were breaking the law. The DOJ never did anything about it because they probably realize that Trump, as a former Commander-in-Chief, was not guilty of breaking any laws.
It wasn't until the January 6th Commission realized that their witch hunt was collapsing under the weight of the failed vendettas and heavy egos that they appealed to the Biden Administration and Biden's AG, Merrick Garland. Garland, after all, is the former SCOTUS nominee that Trump and the Republicans ignored.
So, the Democrats weaponized the DOJ in the same way that they weaponized the impeachment process. Their aim? To attack former President Donald Trump.
As diabolical as the politicians and government employees of the Democratic Party have acted, I kind of hope that the Republicans return the favor. I hope that they impeach Biden THREE times. I also hope that the Democrats in charge of the witch hunt (and Liz Cheney) find their homes raided too.
It is weird to me that people on the right sometimes lament that the Republican Party is not effective at getting its message across. We have a perfect example right here about just how effective they have been.
As diabolical as the politicians and government employees of the Democratic Party have acted, I kind of hope that the Republicans return the favor. I hope that they impeach Biden THREE times. I also hope that the Democrats in charge of the witch hunt (and Liz Cheney) find their homes raided too.
For the last three decades, the GOP has done a great job of convincing its base that Democrats are not just wrong on policy, but corrupt, anti-American, and will destroy all that is right and good if allowed to have power. Thus, they should accept dirty tricks, conflicts of interest, lies, and even corruption from Republicans because at least they wouldn't be as bad as the Demoncrats!
That has been the core message of the Republican Party since at least 1994's Republican Revolution and the Contract with America. That establishment figures like John McCain and Mitt Romney couldn't beat Barrack Hussein Obama was just further proof to them that they needed to go even further. Anything resembling moderation or compromise wasn't going to win, they must have thought. Time to go all out and fuck integrity. Trump was just the man for that job.
I'm not a Trump or Clinton fan, but how is having a box of paper files of classified materials in your house the national security equivalent of sending/receiving classified materials over an unsecured email server that could be accessed by outside bad actors?
Outside bad actors are invited or just show up to Mar a Lago all the time.
You're full of shit.
Because TRUMP!!!!
Sullum, your TDS is reaching stage 5 man. Seek help.
Big difference in Trump storing them under lock and key at his residence and Hillary storing them on an unsecured server in a closet, which was hacked. Also, since Trump declassified them before leaving office, there is no issue. Sullum is nothing but a Trump-hater and likely gets paid to write anti-Trump articles, no matter how ridiculous they sound.
“Also, since Trump declassified them before leaving office, there is no issue.”
Except that is just something Trump said a few days ago. There is no record so far is him having done any such thing while he was President.
None at all, huh?
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/memorandum-declassification-certain-materials-related-fbis-crossfire-hurricane-investigation/
that is concerning a single binder of documents on a single subject that is not SCI..... does not say a goddamn thing about the 11 boxes collected, or the 17 they gave back earlier. your "evidence" only works until someone looks at what it actually says.
You really need to STFU or continue making as TDS-addled asshole of yourself:
"Trump has legal authority to declassify intelligence"
[...]
"President Trump tweeted Tuesday morning that he had the "absolute right" to share information about national security with Russian officials in the White House last week, after The Washington Post reported that the information was highly sensitive and classified.
[...]
Executive Order 13526
As president, Trump has the legal power to declassify information. He also has the authority to share information with whomever he wants, including foreign adversaries..."
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-legal-authority-declassify-intelligence/story?id=47436559
Personally, I'd prefer you STFU, and then fuck off and die, TDS-addled pile of lefty shit. But if you prefer to continue making an ass of yourself, who am I to deny someone his life's work?
do you know why i mock you? it is because you are completely incapable of saying anything other than "TDS,TDS, fuck off and die." you tried to wrap more words around it this time, but those words have nothing to do with what i said, any kind of rational argument, or even reality.
it does not matter what he had the legal right to do 2 years ago..... he didn't do it.... those documents are still classified NOW, and there is NOTHING indicating otherwise.
if someone broke into my house 2 years ago, and i hunt them down and kill them.... i will go to jail.... it does not matter if i had the right to shoot them when they broke into my house 2 years ago..... that is effectively the argument you are trying to make. that trump can't break the law now because 2 years ago he had a loophole he could have used. (that does not currently apply.)
And this is why "libertarian-ism" is a dead movement. If the DOJ and FBI can do this to a former president, they can do it to anyone. This is clearly a political action. Remember, Sandy Berger was caught smuggling classified material in his underwear! And the FBI/DOJ didn't raid his house. Old Sandy only paid a fine. If so called libertarians can't be bothered to defend even a person they find repugnant, then there is no hope for the movement. It's dead.
Well said.
Not only did Sandy Berger destroy a total of at least FOUR unknown classified documents (that likely dealt with Clinton Administration knowledge of Osama bin Laden prior to 9/11), but he did so with apparent INTENT.
"Intent" is important because of FBI Director Comey's emphasis on why "intent" was important in Hillary Clinton's case. He stated:
"Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes regarding the handling of classified information, our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case. Prosecutors necessarily weigh a number of factors before bringing charges. There are obvious considerations, like the strength of the evidence, especially regarding intent. Responsible decisions also consider the context of a person’s actions, and how similar situations have been handled in the past.
In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted involved some combination of: clearly intentional and willful mishandling of classified information; or vast quantities of materials exposed in such a way as to support an inference of intentional misconduct; or indications of disloyalty to the United States; or efforts to obstruct justice. We do not see those things here."
https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/press-releases/statement-by-fbi-director-james-b-comey-on-the-investigation-of-secretary-hillary-clinton2019s-use-of-a-personal-e-mail-system
Hillary Clinton escaped prosecution because Comey found no "intent" to maliciously break the law or use the information for malicious purposes. This is despite the fact that she worked tirelessly to erase email servers that might implicate her.
As for Berger: He paid a fine, was placed on two years of probation and was forced to complete 200 hours of community service. He was also banned for life from the National Archives. He also lost his law license too.
In Trump's case, the main difference is that:
1.) There is no discernable "intent" to do wrong.
2.) The documents were seemingly declassified by the president (who undoubtedly had the power to do so).
3.) There is no basis for retrieval of said documents prior to an FBI raid that was apparently partisan in nature.
4.) There was no recusal by AG Merrick Garland despite the fact that President Trump ignored his nomination to the Supreme Court.
5.) The partisan/personal nature of the January 6th committee was the underlying basis for this raid. It seems like a final "grasping of straws" by a group of politicians willing to abuse power and/or weaponize political procedures.
Putting aside the rest of the nonsense you posted, which has already been trashed here and elsewhere, Trump had no power to do anything about Garland's nomination by Obama. The next step was the Senate where the GOP majority failed their constitutional duty advise and consent by not holding a hearing (the advise part) and a vote (the consent part). The nomination was no longer in effect when Trump took office and he had zero responsibility or options on it, except to possibly renominate him. Of course he also could have nominated me and you, so we are in exactly the same position to Trump as Garland is.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
Joe Friday: I can't understand your gurgling.
My point is that Garland was passed over by Obama's much better predecessor. I was no fan of Trump. He wasn't my first choice. He wasn't my tenth choice. However, compared with the prospects of Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, Trump was the MUCH BETTER choice.
In fact, Trump surprised me. He was a much better president than the whiny liberals and their obliging and loyal friends in various mega-corporation media conglomerates pretended.
While I may not support Trump for the Republican nomination, I would GLADLY vote for him in 2024 if he was the eventual nominee. This nation cannot afford four more years of left-wing puppet rule.
Nobody at Reason has said what the FBI did is A-OK. Plenty of Reason staffers have said we don’t know all the facts yet.
And this is why "libertarian-ism" is a dead movement. If the DOJ and FBI can do this to a former president, they can do it to anyone.
Uh, yeah. But really, you have it backwards. If they can do "it" to anyone (which they do all the fucking time), then they can do it to a former president. And it should work that way, as no one is above the law.
By "it" I mean get a search warrant after submitting to a judge what they think is probable cause that crimes were committed and that evidence of those crimes would be at the location to be searched.
We haven't seen what they had that might have been probable cause, so we can't say for sure one way or another whether the search warrant was justified. But, given the explosiveness of going that far, I really doubt that Garland* would have authorized it without having everything nailed down. That means, in my view, that Trump was still afforded more due process than just about any other American would be. Ordinary Americans that are targets of the FBI and DoJ wouldn't have someone at that high a level scrutinizing the efforts of rank-and-file agents to get warrants to search their property.
*I'm sure a lot of those on the right just assume that Garland is just like every other Democrat, simply because Biden appointed him and Obama had nominated him to SCOTUS. But they may not know or remember that even Orin Hatch had spoken positively about Garland, saying that he would be a fine SCOTUS nominee. (This was at an earlier time, not after Scalia's death. Of course Hatch tried to walk back that statement when Obama actually nominated him to fill the seat vacated by Scalia's death.) Garland was generally known as a moderate and with little partisan leaning. Had Obama actually nominated a solid liberal (especially one younger than Garland), then McConnell might have even been justified in holding back on hearings, but Obama definitely picked Garland to make it harder for McConnell to justify blocking him.
“What if is a game for scholars. What if angels danced on pinheads?” The Lion in Winter.
18 USC 793 is too vague and a tool of repression.
Care to translate that to English?
Just keeping score here on who gets prosecuted for mishandling classified information in America.
Edward Snowden: Oh hell yeah if he hadn't run off.
Julian Assange: Soon as we can get him here.
David Petraeus: You betcha!
Hillary Clinton: No reasonable prosecutor would take that case.
James Comey: Heavens no!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF2ayWcJfxo
From the Senate Intel Comm Report on the 2016 election (GOP majority):
"The Russian government has pursued a relationship with Julian Assange and WikiLeaks that includes formal partnerships with state-owned media platforms, government assistance for WikiLeaks associates and sources, and information sharing. This relationship has existed since at least 2012 and reflects an alignment between the Russian government and WikiLeaks in seeking to undermine U.S. institutions and security. (U) RT (formerly Russia Today) has provided both beneficial coverage ofWikiLeaks and a formal, compensated media platform for Assange. RT first signed a contract with Assange:
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Fuck off and die, Asshole.
You left off: Nobody has prosecuted Trump for anything yet.
Why are all the right-wingers acting like he is a martyr already.
"Looks worse."
What does it matter how it "looks?" The issue is whether or not it was against the law. If Trump broke the law, then he is guilty of breaking the law. If Trump did NOT break the law, then he is NOT GUILITY of breaking the law.
Now, if Trump is being accused of holding classified documents, this will be difficult to prove as he could have declassified virtually ANYTHING while he was President of the United States. Moreover, the nature of these documents aren't clear. They don't seem to be some sort of documents vital to national security. Moreover, it doesn't appear that anyone else had access to them either.
So, this reeks of the very thing that Trump and Trump supporters say it is -- an ideological "witch hunt" or personal vendetta.
This raid adds proverbial fuel to the proverbial fire that certain politicians (namely Democrats) have weaponized everything from the impeachment process to the Department of Justice to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
The “raid” wouldn’t have been necessary if the documents had been returned in a timely manner. Seems like Trump wanted a confrontation.
Fuck off and die, TDS addled pile of shit.
TDS,TDS, fuck off and die, SQUAWK
Fuck off and die, TDS addled pile of shit.
So, even if you were correct (and you aren't), you would favor weaponizing the DOJ/FBI to "retrieve documents" from a former president so that they would be returned in a more "timely" manner? This sounds downright Bolshevikish.
The irony is that the radical anti-Trump brigade cannot come up with an answer as to why former President Trump would even want to keep documents that he was already previously privy to anyway.
The answer, of course, is that this is just a ruse. The politicos in the DNC and their minions simply want to weaponize the DOJ in the same way they tried to weaponize a procedure like impeachment.
As ridiculous as the Democrats have been with this vile behavior, I almost want Republicans to return the favor. Maybe its time to raid the offices of Joe Bide, Kamala Harris, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, Adam Schiff, AOC and Jerry "poopy pants" Nadler and "verify" Republican suspicions of these politicians.
the raid was wrong, but it was avoidable if Trump had just followed the law and returned the documents. the point being made is that it seems like Trump deliberately chose to break the law to force this confrontation....
Your assertions as to Trump breaking the law simply demonstrate the extent of your TDS.
TDS,TDS, Sevo want a cracker.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
"...So, this reeks of the very thing that Trump and Trump supporters say it is -- an ideological "witch hunt" or personal vendetta..."
Given the 6-year span, "fishing expedition" works too.
"What does it matter how it "looks?"..."
TDS makes that all-important; Trump's guilty of doing something that looks bad to TDS-addled assholes.
The classification of documents has a process like any created and held and restricted so they are not available to anyone but authorized persons First these documents when classified are stored according to how they could affect the nation's security. They are not available or even delivered to the President's Office until needed. Each person must validate the documents are complete, are intact and in order. We never see a guest from a foreign country reading the document. If security were my job, the actual documents were signed within a secure room and taken away to the archives. The other we see are for the media. This now becomes the question. Handling of documents for a president isn't done by emptying out the desk and putting them in a box. Looking at the quantity taken they had to have been taken and itemized for nothing more than having a record for the future presidential libraries. Because documents are de-classified by a president they may be re-classified as well. Having them in his possession would require notifications that they must be surrendered. If refused then justification to seize them is proper Until that point no laws are broken. Government can't make a law and prosecute for its violation. (Ex post facto laws) Should President have these documents then we have a grave breakdown in the security system. When we have a president that tried to increase security for this nation, why would he violate the principles on which he ran the administration? To further question the method of selecting the documents to be taken? Does a president set down and select them? With thousands to choose, when did he find the time? Because he believed he would win. He had no reason to select them. When the election was over his attentions were on how the numbers changed so quickly. So who made the selection? Did the president even know what is taken? Was the content chosen in advance knowing he was going to lose? What is clear to myself, is not just the effort and organization taken to insure his defeat, including the efforts to insure he wouldn't be able to run again in 2024. Too many events to be coincidental. Too many events that happen at precisely the right time. All with the same goals. President Trump did immeasurable damage to the Democrats. The left had to insure it wouldn't happen again. Even taking reckless steps requiring judges to violate our laws. The chances grow president Trump would be elected. The step I see them take is assassination. The only step that would insure results-------I, Grampa PS. I apologize, I am far from posting the content I should. My mind is far from what it should be. The subject was one I had to respond to. Please understand, Thanks Grampa.
Trump de-classified the documents; all the rest if irrelevant.
"But five sets of top-secret documents could easily contain more sensitive information than eight email chains that may have referred to top-secret material only briefly and/or in passing." Unsubstantiated conjecture to support the premise of your article. BTW, email servers can be hacked. Locked storage rooms... not so much.
There's plenty of justification for charging both Clinton (and it's not too late) and Trump with various violations. Whatever happens they should both be held to the same standard as both their conduct was willful and negligent.
Gonna charge Trump with being Donald Trump? Fine; he did nothing wrong here, AFAICS.
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The difference, of course, is that Trump is 100% in charge of classification and Hillary wasn't.
Sullum comes out today as anti-declassification.
Curious times when a libertarian is taking a position that seeks to keep government information secret.