Did Cassidy Hutchinson's Testimony Clinch the Incitement Case Against Trump?
The former president's recklessness is beyond dispute, but that is not enough to convict him while respecting the First Amendment.

There is no question that Donald Trump's rhetoric and inaction before and during the 2021 Capitol riot were reckless—so reckless that they easily justified his second impeachment. But as I have argued before, that does not mean he is guilty of incitement, a criminal charge that requires proof of intent. Does yesterday's congressional testimony by Cassidy Hutchinson, a top aide to then–White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, make that charge more plausible?
Columbia law professor Daniel C. Richman is skeptical. "This is a dramatic last piece that enriches the story," he told The New York Times. "But it's not clear that it changes the fundamental question of criminal liability."
By contrast, The Dispatch's David French, a conservative lawyer and former president of what is now the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, thinks "the case for prosecuting Trump is stronger than it's ever been before" in light of Hutchinson's testimony before the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol. Given French's long record as a defender of the First Amendment, his take cannot be readily dismissed. But I still think the evidence falls well short of what would be required to convict Trump of incitement while respecting freedom of speech.
French focuses on Hutchinson's report that Trump knew some of the supporters who showed up for the pre-riot rally at the Ellipse were armed but nevertheless told the Secret Service to stop screening them with metal detectors. Hutchinson said she heard Trump say something like this: "You know, I don't effing care that they have weapons. They're not here to hurt me. Take the effing mags [magnetometers] away. Let my people in. They can march to the Capitol from here. Let the people in. Take the effing mags away."
Some Trump supporters were carrying flagpoles that would later be weaponized against police. Rep. Liz Cheney (R–Wyo.), vice chair of the January 6 committee, yesterday noted that some protesters also had "pepper spray, knives, brass knuckles, tasers, body armor, gas masks, batons, [and] blunt weapons." She added that the committee "has obtained police radio transmissions identifying individuals with firearms, including AR-15s, near the Ellipse on the morning of January 6th."
Hutchinson says Deputy Chief of Staff Tony Ornato told Meadows about the weapons that morning. The committee yesterday played a video of Hutchinson's private testimony to that effect. "I remember Tony mentioning knives, guns in the form of pistols and rifles, bear spray, body armor, spears, and flagpoles," she said. "Tony had related to me something to the effect of 'These effing people are fastening spears onto the ends of flagpoles.'" When they shared this information with Meadows, Hutchinson said, he asked Ornato if the president was aware of it, and Ornato said he was.
Trump's lack of concern about the weapons, which he viewed as unimportant because they would never be used against him, is further evidence of his reckless self-absorption. But it does not necessarily indicate that he expected or wanted his followers to breach the Capitol, vandalize the building, or attack police officers.
Trump's main concern at that point seems to have been maximizing the audience for the incendiary speech in which he reiterated his fantasy of a stolen election, warned that American democracy and the republic itself would be destroyed if Joe Biden was allowed to take office, and urged his supporters to "fight like hell." He did not want the Secret Service to turn away people who were carrying weapons because that would have made the crowd smaller.
The absurd vanity of Trump's obsession with the crowd's size—which harked back to the "alternative facts" he offered regarding the turnout at his inauguration—was obvious in the opening lines of his January 6 speech. "The media will not show the magnitude of this crowd," he said. "Even I, when I turned on [the TV] today, I looked, and I saw thousands of people here, but you don't see hundreds of thousands of people behind you because they don't want to show that. We have hundreds of thousands of people here, and I just want them to be recognized by the fake news media. Turn your cameras, please, and show what's really happening out here, because these people are not going to take it any longer. They're not going to take it any longer. Go ahead. Turn your cameras, please. Would you show?"
French also notes Hutchinson's testimony that Trump initially intended to join his supporters at the Capitol, which is about two miles from the Ellipse. That much also was apparent from the speech. "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard," Trump said. "We're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue…and we're going to the Capitol."
Hutchinson testified that the danger posed by that plan was clear to Meadows four days before the riot. On January 2, she said, Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, who would also speak at the rally, told her about the planned march, and she described that conversation to Meadows. "I remember leaning against the doorway and saying, 'I just had an interesting conversation with Rudy, Mark,'" she said. "'It sounds like we're going to go to the Capitol.' He didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of 'There's a lot going on, Cass, but I don't know. Things might get real, real bad on January 6th.'"
On the morning of January 6, Hutchinson said, White House Counsel Pat Cipollone was determined to stop Trump from going to the Capitol because he was worried about potential criminal liability. "Mr. Cipollone said something to the effect of 'Please make sure we don't go up to the Capitol, Cassidy,'" she testified. "'Keep in touch with me. We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen.'"
Hutchinson also testified that Trump was enraged when the Secret Service told him, after his speech, that they were returning to the White House rather than driving to the Capitol. The Secret Service has disputed her secondhand account that Trump tried to grab the steering wheel of the SUV in which he was traveling and "lunge[d] towards" Secret Service agent Bobby Engel, "motion[ing] towards his clavicles [sic]." Citing "Secret Service officials who requested anonymity," The New York Times reports that both Engel, the head of Trump's protective detail, and the driver "were prepared to state under oath that neither man was assaulted by the former president and that he did not reach for the wheel." But the Times adds that "the two men would not dispute the allegation that Mr. Trump wanted to go to the Capitol."
In fact, Engel's previous, private testimony confirms that Trump was frustrated by the Secret Service's insistence that he return to the White House. "Engel told Jan. 6 select committee investigators that the two men discussed Trump's desire to go to the Capitol and took different views on the topic," Politico reported earlier this month, citing "a person familiar with the agent's congressional testimony."
Trump's desire to join his supporters at the Capitol underlines the point that he was heedless of the risks posed by moving the protest to the grounds of the building where Congress was about to certify Biden's victory. Given the circumstances, violence was predictable. But that does not necessarily mean Trump anticipated it, let alone that he intended to incite it. Obviously, Trump should have anticipated violence. But if he did not, it would be consistent with his long record of failing to act as a decent, sensible, reasonably prudent person would.
Trump's appalling irresponsibility was on display again after the riot started. Rather than try to stop the violence, he egged on his supporters, tweeting that Vice President Mike Pence, by refusing to unilaterally and illegally reject electoral votes for Biden, showed that he "didn't have the courage to do what was necessary." As French notes, video shows that the crowd outside the Capitol "surged" in response to that tweet. When Cipollone told Meadows that the protesters were "literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung," Hutchinson testified, Meadows "responded something to the effect of 'You heard him, Pat. He thinks Mike deserves it.'"
It has long been clear that Trump was, as French puts it, "morally and politically responsible" for the riot, which is why he was impeached. "There's no credible argument that a mob would have stormed the Capitol if he had the basic decency to concede a race he clearly lost," French notes.
For months, Trump ceaselessly promoted the "Stop the Steal" narrative, demanding that his supporters live in an alternative universe where he won reelection. He urged them to attend the "Save America" rally, which he predicted would be "wild" and portrayed as a last-ditch effort to stop the installation of an illegitimate president. His speech at the rally aimed to rile up fans who shared his fantasy, which he hoped would exert pressure on "weak" Republican legislators who did not. His behavior after the protest predictably turned violent was inexcusable.
But none of that necessarily means Trump was criminally responsible for the riot, a question that hinges on his intent. Under federal law, "to incite a riot" means "to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot." The crime, which is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison, "includes, but is not limited to, urging or instigating other persons to riot, but shall not be deemed to mean the mere oral or written (1) advocacy of ideas or (2) expression of belief, not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts."
Even advocacy of illegal behavior, the Supreme Court ruled in the 1969 case Brandenburg v. Ohio, is constitutionally protected speech unless it is both "likely" to incite "imminent lawless action" and "directed" at that outcome. In Trump's case, it surely was likely that at least some of his supporters would do more than "peacefully and patriotically make [their] voices heard." But the fact remains that Trump—unlike the Ku Klux Klan leader charged with advocating violence in Brandenburg, whose conviction was nevertheless overturned—did not urge his supporters to break the law. Nor is it clear that he wanted them to do so, even if he was strikingly unconcerned when they did.
As French sees it, Hutchinson's testimony reinforces the argument that "the attack on the Capitol was unfolding as he intended." But that testimony is also consistent with what we knew about Trump long before the riot: He is a vain, reckless, petty, impulsive man who elevates his own interests above everything else. It is perfectly plausible that Trump either did not consider or did not care about the danger of violence that day. But the Brandenburg standard, which aims to protect freedom of speech by making it difficult to hold people criminally liable for the actions of listeners inspired by their words, requires more than that.
"The First Amendment is broadly protective even of political speech that outright advocates violence," French notes. "There is (rightly) a very high constitutional barrier to criminally prosecuting any person for allegedly inciting violence. After all, the primary responsibility for a riot rests with the rioters—in the absence of direct command authority (like a general commands his troops), nobody can make a person riot."
That principle barred the prosecution of an odious bigot in Brandenburg. It should not be sacrificed for the satisfaction of seeing a delusional demagogue get his comeuppance.
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Sure Jacob, "If you don't fight like hell..." spoken to armed rioters was just college boola boola talk and organizing House members (147), Senators (6), and trying to force Pence into a stalemate at the Congress was just kidding around. This loser spent all of his time between Nov 3 and Jan 20 trying to stay in power- we have the tapes.
He didn't say "fight like hell" to armed rioters. (Those guys were down at the Capitol.) He said it to a peaceful crowd gathered at the Ellipse.
We do know what Speaker Pelosi tweeted to armed rioters at the Mark O. Hatfield courthouse in Portland.
http://twitter.com/speakerpelosi/status/1284294427654197248
"Unidentified stormtroopers. Unmarked cars. Kidnapping protesters and causing severe injuries in response to graffiti. These are not the actions of a democratic republic.
@DHSgov’s actions in Portland undermine its mission.
Trump & his stormtroopers must be stopped."
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You need to listen to the hearings Seamus. He was made aware of armed attendees up at the ellipse and asked that they be allowed closer to the podium.
Which was pretty far from the rioting, I believe.
A mile or so.
Easily walked by everyone but Donnie Fatso and they did.
Amazingly fast too since the riots started a few minutes before the speech ended. Time travel is possible.
Keep in mind that Joe Asshole is full of shit.
Joe and Jacob think Trump has magical powers. He's an evil god, a demiurge.
Not even in Orwell's 1984 did Party members embrace three incompatible theories
Here, on January 6, 2021, Cruz, et al, were going to object to five states' electoral votes, as Jan 6 Committee Chair Bennie Thompson had voted to reject Ohio's EVs 16 years previously.
But at the same time, VP Pence was supposed to follow the Eastman plan, and ignore the Electoral Count Act.
While the moiling mob burst into the Capitol just at the time Congress reached the first state of interest: Arizona.
Stop trying to reason with this person. Understanding, justice and truth is not their modus operandi, and definitely not the reason they are posting here.
Yes, according to someone whose testimony has already largely turned out to be false.
No, it hasn't, but of course we look forward to Meadows and others tesifying.
Yes it is. We already know key details from her are false. Trump wasn't in The Beast. She didn't write the note. Tony O didn't yell her shit. Nobody else did either.
Then there is this beauty today about why it fell apart so quickly:
The Jan. 6 committee didn’t reach out to the Secret Service in the days before it aired explosive testimony about an alleged physical altercation between Donald Trump and his security detail on the day of the riot, according to an agency spokesperson.
[…]
Anthony Guglielmi, the service’s chief of communications, told POLITICO that select committee investigators did not ask Secret Service personnel to reappear or answer questions in writing in the 10 days before asking Hutchinson about the matter at the hearing.
“[W]e were not asked to reappear before the Committee in response to yesterday’s new information and we plan on formally responding on the record,” he wrote in an email. “We have and will continue to make any member of the Secret Service available.”
There's no way in hell they wouldn't have called them to testify, if they'd thought they would confirm the story. Pretty much confirms that they knew it was BS.
Good god, you're gullible. And the royal "we" is a nice touch.
Was he aware that they were armed, or did he decline to search people for weapons? Because every time I looked for proof of him being aware people were armed, all I could find was someone asking if he should search everyone at his rally and him declining. That isn't the same thing.
And the fact that if these rioters were armed with rifles, pistols, even sharp objects, we'd have heard about it long before today.
They had knives? Did anyone stab anyone at all on that day? It undermines the inherent violence of the crowd if you're telling me they had weapons they didn't use (especially weapons that have yet to be shown).
Most of the time I have a knife. It's folding, about 3" long.
If saying "fight like hell" for a cause is instigating violence, why aren't Waters, Schumer, Schiff, and others who've said worse been prosecuted? Instead, they haven't even been criticized by the liberal MSM or Democrats.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that Sullum's hatred of Trump has clouded his mind and judgement. E.G., Sullum writes "The former president's recklessness is beyond dispute". But he doesn't back it up with anything meaningful, and is a denier that there were enough irregularities in the election that it's even worth investigating.
Sullum failed to put himself in Trump's shoes, and see how the Democracy was lost with Democrats cheating in the election, at least that's how it looks to me. Consider when I went to bed the gamblers gave Trump a 90% chance to win the election. Then all of a sudden vote counting centers were shut down in swing states in counties run by Democrats. Then when reopened we saw huge ballot drops without chain of custody documentation, that were almost all for Biden. Looks like they determined they needed to print up more Biden votes, so shut down to give them time to do so.
spoken to armed rioters
How about we shove this argument aside like so much Nancy Pelosi and a small brown child.
"There is no question" - begins the libtard author.
Amazing!.....
Joe Friday's Guide to Violent Incitement
Not incitement:
"there will be blood in the streets” - Loretta Lynch
“Who says protests have to be peaceful“ - Cuomo
“There needs to be unrest in the streets” - Ayanna Pressley
“Protesters should not give up” - Kamala Harris
“I just don’t know why they aren’t uprising all over this country“ - Nancy Pelosi
“You get out and create a crowd and you push back on them, tell them they are not welcome“ - Maxine Waters
“I want to tell you, Gorsuch, I want to tell you, Kavanaugh: You have released the whirlwind, and you will pay the price! You won’t know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions!” - Chuck Schumer
"(the Supreme Court is) Illegitimate! Illegitimate! Into the streets! Into the streets! - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Deadly incitement:
“Go home with love and peace, remember this day forever“ - Donald J Trump
Oooh, that's so scary. especially “Protesters should not give up”.
So you'll just ignore the ones mentioning blood in the streets and people "paying the price" to point out the more innocuous one? A lot people around here seem to think you're a disingenuous troll. Shocking.
That was all he had.
When you're shilling for vicious old harpies with loose tongues you have to get really good at pretending they didn't say things.
Dude, the what-abouts don't rise to the level of an actual attack on the capitol promoted by the president of the US who also aligned his stooges in the GOP to break-up the EC vote and who clearly was doing everything he possibly could to stay in power and fuck the US.
Your judgement is "super scary".
What promotions?
Keep in mind that Joe Asshole is full of shit.
I'm not fond of some of Sevo's critiques of people...but he's balls-on accurate about Joey.
Also, Sullum, do you ever get tired about being wrong about Trump?
The ones in Joe's head. He has to lie to himself or acknowledge he was a gullible idiot, and the latter's unacceptable.
Zero evidence.
He asked them to exercise powers he believed they had. They declined. End of story.
I'm still waiting for evidence of "incitement", "conspiracy", or "insurrection". Any. Evidence.
Demanding evidence of the criminality of a racist like Trump is racist.
How is that any different from "fight like hell"?
“Zeb said : How is that any different from "fight like hell"? “
It wasn’t said by Democrat/progressive.
https://reason.com/2022/06/29/did-cassidy-hutchinsons-testimony-clinch-the-incitement-case-against-trump/?comments=true#comment-9573188
Is your claim blm didn't cause 2 billion in damages?
He is the poster child for why we have to get rid of the democrats.
OMG!!!!!!! Eliminationist language! Ted is literally calling for genocide against Democrats! Reason is not a safe space! Reason has blood on its hands!
Uh huh. You should read more of my comments. I favor a plan involving mass expatriation of committed leftists. So it’s more like I would have a bunch of place amd boat tickets on my hands.
So you seem to be saying that because the goofballs at the capital did a thing, whatever Trump said must have been a signal to do that thing.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
"there will be blood in the streets” - Loretta Lynch
The funny part is, if you try to do a Google search on this quote, to try to find the original statement in context, it is difficult to find. Instead what you find is ML's same meme over and over and over again.
The video is here. And it is not incitement to violence, any more than Trump's was.
https://newspunch.com/loretta-lynch-blood-death-trump/
Huh. So she doesn't actually say "there will be blood in the streets". That is a pure invention. Unless it is from some other video.
Correct, as near as I can tell.
But I'm sure you discovered, just as I did, that if you try to search for that phrase to try to find the whole context of that statement, you are instead inundated with the exact same right-wing meme that ML posted above, repeated thousands of times.
So kind of like what the left did with Trump?
It's not legally an incitement to violence since she didn't name specific targets, dates, and times. But she is calling for protests at which there will be blood and deaths.
Try finding anything like that in Trump's speech.
Not even in Orwell's 1984 did Party members embrace three incompatible theories
Here, on January 6, 2021, Cruz, et al, were going to object to five states' electoral votes, as Jan 6 Committee Chair Bennie Thompson had voted to reject Ohio's EVs 16 years previously.
But at the same time, VP Pence was supposed to follow the Eastman plan, and ignore the Electoral Count Act.
While the moiling mob burst into the Capitol just at the time Congress reached the first state of interest: Arizona.
For the first two, it does seem like a layers-of-defense where you argue from multiple angles at once in case one argument isn't convincing.
For the final one, the one thing that I do believe from these hearings was that none of the Republicans wanted the riot, as it undermined everything they were trying to do. They wanted a bog-standard protest.
Given French's long record as an assclown who completely loses his mind at the mere mention of Donald Trump, I certainly can.
*it* certainly can
Given French's long record as a "conservative" who earns his bread almost exclusively by providing quotes attacking conservatives, I certainly can too.
French is a "stalwart conservative" who hates conservatism and everything to do with it.
As a Libertarian without a dog in that fight Mother, I'm sure that's of academic interest only to you.
1. You're not a libertarian. At best you're an authoritarian corporatist. At worst an outright fascist.
2. Sullum quoted French as a conservative representative. Did you even read the article you're running cover for?
I don;t claim to be a libertarian, you do, but are clearly MAGA, the dumbest and nastiest political movement in America in at least 100 years. Your leader says it all.
I'm not an American so he's not my leader, the right honorable Jussie Trudeau claims that spot.
And if you're not a libertarian why are you here? Just to troll and fifty-cent DNC talking-points poorly?
You surely mean Justin Castro. There is no dispute among researchers now. Trudeau's mom was a party girl, and they cruised -on the record- to an unnamed 'island' 9 months before little Justin Castro was debut'ed.
Well, Mother’s is Canadian, so he is something much more pathetic than a MAGA: he’s a wannabe MAGA.
Better wannabe MAGA than a genuine authoritarian simp and Biden booster like you, White Mike.
You literally just said you _were_ a libertarian two posts above. Now you say you never claimed to be one? ROFL!!!!! I know Democrats are pathetically stupid, low IQ, and extremely gullible, but wow......
You've admitted to being a Democrat so many times here. Why gaslight now?
More lies from Joe Asshole.
You are about as much of a Libertarian as Hulk Hogan is a 12 year old girl.
Never claimed to be NOYB. I'm not that simple minded or ideologically rigid.
Joe Asshole is full of shit.
but you did a couple posts up, stupid.
It was awkwardly worded, but Friday was calling Mother's "a Libertarian without a dog in the fight". Friday wasn't referring to himself.
French is a principled conservative who doesn't bend the knee at the Orange Grifter, like most other Republicans have. So of course you trash him for being not conservative. Because to you, conservative = Trump
"French is a principled conservative"
...who has decided that virtually every stance he took prior to 2016 is now wrong.
Somehow I don't think that's terribly accurate.
I love how you leftists only call conservatives principled when they attack other conservatives.
French stopped being a principled conservative long before Trump.
What is your basis for this claim?
That you're a fat sack of lefty-defending shit.
Are you serious? David “I still support the war in Iraq” French?
And before you say anything, I would personally say anyone who calls themselves a “compassionate conservative” is just a progressive.
So you are saying that he is a traditional Republican: a war mongering, corrupt, self-dealing, self-aggrandizing, crony capitalist, anti-gay, anti-free market globalist and neocon.
It is no surprise that you admire him, because that's not very different from progressives.
The fact that Sullum put this article out even after her entire testimony started to collapsed is stunning to me. Sullum is that far gone still with his anti-trump bias and is performing the same never trump acts as George conway and French.
So many pieces of her testimony are knowingly wrong, such as Trump being in The Beast. Her writing the note used in evidence.
The second tell is the J6 committee using hearsay evidence even though they've already depositioned the SS agents and drivers. This is a huge tell of the seriousness of this committee.
"The fact that Sullum put this article out even after her entire testimony started to collapsed is stunning to me."
There's no way Sullum didn't know by this point that the testimony collapsed unless he did zero further research.
Either he's being deliberately decietful or he's incompetent. Either one should trigger an employee review.
Did you see her lawyer is a 20 year doj lawyer?
What happened here?
The fact is for the Trump loyalist her testimony collapsed before she gave it. For the rest of the people, it is holding up well.
Lol. Still great parody.
I mean even the J6 committee had to rush out to correct her statements regarding the beast. Likewise admit contradictions with who wrote the note. Then have now switched to the attack on SS wasn't the important part after the SS and driver yelled bullshit.
Right? When SS agents Ornato and Engel present their testimony under oath we can disregard Ms. Hutchinson's testimony. Until then it stands in the record.
They already did. They were already deposed. Are you not aware? The committee chose to go with hearsay instead.
Do we know in fact that these two specific individuals were deposed?
If so, do we know that they were asked specifically about the "lunging" incident in question?
Yes jeff. We do. This was discussed easier.
Your incessant need to argue from ignorance is also telling.
Earlier*
I do not see where Ornato gave testimony to the committee.
Because you choose not to look doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He has released a statement as well that he did not talk to Hutchinson.
I'm curious. Did you even watch her testimony and note the proliferate use of "along the lines of?"
giving a statement =/= testifying to committee
Once again, you believe a guy "giving a statement" over sworn testimony under oath, because that is what helps Team Red.
giving a statement =/= testifying to committee
Which doesn't mean shit as to the actual truth of the statement, you fat sack of shit.
My understanding is that they were surprised and dismayed that she would make such a claim.
The thing is Hutchinson has given testimony to the committee at least four times, and most of what she claimed was second or third hand information.
If your bombshell revelation is that Trump attacked the SS agent, and you have an opportunity to question that agent, why on earth would you not ask him about it? Same for the guy she claimed told her the story.
Anyone who has seen a few episodes of Law and Order would know that. Cheney went to law school.
Ms. Hutchinson reported what she was told by Mr.Ornato. Mr. Ornato needs to testify that either he did not tell her about the ride back to the WH, that what he told here was a BS story he made up or that the story he told her is correct. Simple as that.
It is amazing watching leftists and parodies here fully but pure hearsay even when pieces of that hearsay have already been shown a lie. No actual supportive evidence needed. Every primary witness can deny. And you continue to push others to disprove the original assertion instead.
A true study of cognitive bias.
The comparison to the Ford testimony against Kavanaugh is apt, but even that wasn't full-out hearsay, and at times double-hearsay, and there are not intervening decades where people would forget.
Someone giving hearsay evidence that is directly contradicted by people who were present and at least one point is physically impossible. Yet people are still demanding criminal charges based on the hearsay. Furthermore, Congress, which has one of the largest collection of lawyers in the country, can't arrange for an orderly and deliberate presentation of non-contradictory testimony when there is no defense and no cross examination. This is on the level of a second year law student.
I have to agree with statements by the Babylon Bee that much of what has happened over the past two years is so egregious that parody has become impossible. This wouldn't have featured on a Monty Python sketch for being too absurd.
Yes, you'll believe any testimony that supports your bizarre conspiracy theories.!
I will believe testimony that is given under oath. That includes testimony to contradict Ms. Hutchinson, when it is given under oath.
You believe 3rd party hearsay over primary party statements?
I believe it is second party. Mr. Ornato was in the vehicle with the President.
She says in her statements she was told that someone told Tony O.
Transcript has her saying that Mr. Ornato told her the story and that Mr. Engel was in the room and did not deny Mr. Ornato's story. So that is second hand.
The fact that the committee put up someone presenting hearsay and broadcasting it on TV instead of subpoenaing the primary sources tells you everything you need to know about the credibility of her testimony and what a sham all of this is.
Mod, that's what hearsay is.
She said that she heard.
There is a reason that hearsay is not admissible in any court on this planet. It is at best unreliable and is here prejudicial. Even if there is testimony under oath that it never happened, the lie has gone around the world.
Ornato has already testified and did not mention and was not asked about this incident. Either it never happened or they deliberately constructed this single-party ordeal with twists and turns for dramatic effect. Given that Ornato has publicly stated that it is a lie, I will have to go with both.
Finally, we can safely say that Hutchinson will not pay any penalty for deliberate falsehoods and slander (look at Clinton's lawyer, who was found not-guilty on lying to the FBI when he was in writing saying that he was representing himself yet billed Clinton for the meeting), so even that oath is worthless.
Her testimony is mostly hearsay, and she knows that nothing will happen to her if she lies. She is trying to rehabilitate herself after working for Trump.
What makes you think that Democrats or Cheney/Kinzinger are going to call other witnesses? They could have called the secret service agents and lawyer involved on the same day; they didn't even bother to contact them to verify the testimony. That alone tells you that this is a sham.
Note that pretty much all of Hutchinson's crap was preceded by "He said something to the effect of...", even the stuff that wasn't hearsay.
"For the rest of the people, it is holding up well."
Provided one ignores that nothing she said has stood up.
So many pieces of her testimony are knowingly wrong, such as Trump being in The Beast. Her writing the note used in evidence.
You're right, that was an error on her part. All things considered, it's a pretty minor error though.
Her writing the note used in evidence.
Do we know for a fact that she did not write the note, and Herschmann wrote the note? How do you know?
Herschmann said he did and she has zero evidence and a terrible track record to dispute it.
Nor HAS she disputed it, mind you.
She also claimed Trump almost assaulted Secret Service agents who have said that such an event never happened.
She testified under oath that she did. I would imagine a fairly straightforward handwriting analysis could determine who is telling the truth, in a more objective manner. Has this been done?
Jeff. It is amazing watching you to parse every sml minute story to keep this hilarious false testimony alive and yet in the roundup thread you made assertive claims that trump lost all election lawsuits and went silent when provided examples of you being incorrect.
You truly are a partisan piece of shit.
Keep the hope alive buddy.
Well he didn't lose all of them. He won one or two of them, right? The point is that the constitutionality of a state's electoral processes are determined by the state and the state's courts. Trump pursued his options and (overwhelmingly) lost. That's that.
Your claim is he won none. And no it wasn't one or two. It is over 2 dozen suits now won by plantiffs for illegal election changes.
He did not overwhelmingly loses. He won the majority of cases that courts allowed to be pursued.
Again, you argue from ignorance. Seems to be your modus operandi.
Why the f*ck didn't they interview the agents and Herschmann? They didn't even bother to contact them.
Instead they put hearsay on national TV.
And gullible fools like you actually believe this preposterous charade. Do you still believe in Peegate too?
Why the f*ck didn't they interview the agents and Herschmann? They didn't even bother to contact them.
They did interview Engel (see below). They did interview Herschmann, here is a link.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-white-house-attorney-disputes-cassidy-hutchinsons-testimony/story?id=85898838
So you are saying that Herschel contradicted her testimony, but they chose to make only her testimony public. So much for the committee.
And yet you claim that her testimony has not been contradicted. So much for your claim.
And yet you claim that her testimony has not been contradicted. So much for your claim.
I never claimed that. I have said all along that we don't actually know who wrote that note.
And Engel, according to the article, just confirmed Trump's statement: the Secret Service told him he couldn't go, and he didn't go. They didn't interview the other agents that Hutchinson claimed Trump attacked, but that have now come forward and said none of that happened.
The bigger question is: how is any of that relevant in the first place? Even if everything Hutchinson says, it has nothing to do with either a conspiracy or insurrection, nor with Capitol security.
Let's hope that Republicans will convene a Capitol security committee after the midterms and drag Pelosi in front of it to answer some tough questions, because that's what actually matters.
I agree with you that focusing on things like lunging for steering wheels is salacious, but ultimately not that important.
If Republicans want to have an honest investigation into Capitol security procedures, then that's fine. Of course it would be more than just Pelosi being asked questions. It would be a whole bunch of people.
Jeff. If you include one thing that is headline-grabbing and yet not only false but physically impossible, it brings everything else into question.
It's not that one bad apple spoils the bunch, but it highlights that either her testimony is a complete fabrication or she is so unfamiliar with what happened that it's completely unreliable.
"She testified under oath that she did. I would imagine a fairly straightforward handwriting analysis could determine who is telling the truth, in a more objective manner. Has this been done?"
Why won't the kangaroo court request testimony from him to find out?
And when you have literal intelligence agencies at your command, handwriting analysis is useless. The FBI and CIA could easily write a suicide note that would fool your own mother, much less a rapid scrawl from someone whom they had millions of writing samples from
The second tell is the J6 committee using hearsay evidence even though they've already depositioned the SS agents and drivers.
Do we know what was in those depositions? Were they asked about the "lunging" incident?
They offered to come back and testify under oath about it.
Committee was not interested.
Any idea why? You'd think first person witnesses to an event would be quite interesting to hear from, no?
They offered to come back and testify under oath about it.
Yes, they did. I hope they do testify.
Committee was not interested.
Considering that the SS agents offered to testify *today*, I think it's a little bit premature to declare that the "committee was not interested".
Lol. This is getting pathetic on your part. It is no longer about proving her story is true. Just like the committee didn't bother to verify her testimony per politico. You don't care about proving assertions true. You are now demanding others prove assertions false. As long as they agree with your biases. Hilarious.
It is no longer about proving her story is true. Just like the committee didn't bother to verify her testimony per politico.
Really? How do you know this?
Because if they had, they would have put the agents on the stand, not someone who gave testimony to hearsay!
I agree that her testimony had a lot of hearsay. That doesn't mean it is incorrect necessarily, that just means that it isn't as strong of a case as it could have been if the testimony had been from first-hand witnesses.
And I agree that they are not conducting a "proper" investigation in the sense of trying to be neutral impartial fact-finders. They are definitely trying to tell a story.
I do want Jan. 6 investigated, because I don't want such a horrible event to happen again. Unfortunately the Republicans turned down a proposal for a bipartisan commission that would have been much fairer, so this is all that we have.
I wish they would stop making the focus so much about Trump. He was just one part of the entire event. A big part, yes, but just one part. I would like more focus on what Eastman was doing, what the fake electors were up to, things like that. Also some ideas on how to fix things so it doesn't happen again.
As flawed as it is, this is what we have, and it is better than not investigating it at all.
This is such fucking bullshit. You want it to continue because you believe it harms the right.
Youre such a fucking obvious liar.
I am, and continue to be, genuinely disgusted by the events of Jan. 6. Not just the riot, but all of the other crap leading up to it as well.
You want to IGNORE it because it harms Team Red.
Nancy Pelosi turned that down when she refused to seat the Republican representatives.
Oh, please, such events happen several times a year in DC: violent protests, politicians challenging election outcomes, etc.
Pelosi is responsible for Capitol security. Hopefully, Republicans will force her to answer some tough questions when they are back in charge. And hopefully, they will get her to humiliate herself when they do because she really is an awful human being.
Nancy Pelosi turned that down when she refused to seat the Republican representatives.
No, the offer on the table BEFORE this entire committee, was a bipartisan commission that would have been a lot fairer than this committee.
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/28/1000524897/senate-republicans-block-plan-for-independent-commission-on-jan-6-capitol-riot
But Republicans turned it down. Instead we have this.
Pelosi is responsible for Capitol security.
No, the Capitol Police Board is responsible for Capitol security.
https://www.uscp.gov/the-department/oversight/capitol-police-board
Are you just going to repeat every myth emanating from right-wing narratives?
That was the Senate. And your own link explains to you why.
Nancy Pelosi had the ability and the knowledge to request security for the proceedings. She chose not to. The Capitol Police Board is responsible for the Capitol Police, which is only one institution providing security.
Yes, because the right wing narratives actually make sense, while your narratives are risible.
Oh, so am I.
It seems to have galvanized Team Red as far as I can tell. It certainly has angered independents like me, against the Democrats and their blatant abuse of power and their failure to govern.
It has cause assholes like Cheney, Kinzinger, and Amash to show their true colors.
And it certainly makes Democrats look like a mix between fools and fascists.
I thought you didn’t begrudge Trump going through purely legal channels to dispute the election?
That was the Senate.
Yes. Republicans in the Senate. They turned it down.
Republicans had a chance for a much fairer bipartisan commission. They turned it down. They have no room to complain now about the committee which is decidedly less fair to them.
Nancy Pelosi had the ability and the knowledge to request security for the proceedings.
So did lots of people in Congress, both Democrats and Republicans. They are free to request anything they like. Ultimately though it's the Capitol Police Board that is responsible for dealing with those requests.
This is just perpetuating a right-wing meme that "it's Nancy Pelosi's fault", treating her as the convenient tribal bogeyman.
It certainly has angered independents like me
lol, you're an authoritarian Republican
You have provided zero evidence any of her story is true.
You have been provided her lies about The Beast, the note, and denials from primary witnesses.
Yet you believe the assertion and continue to demand others disprove it.
Youre an idiot jeff.
An honest mistake is not the same as a lie.
If she was confused about which car Trump was riding in, particularly since he evidently did use two different cars that day, that is completely understandable and not necessarily a lie.
We don't actually know with any certainty who wrote that note. Of course you believe the Team Red version of events without question.
We don't actually know the substance of what the Secret Service agents are going to say or what precisely they object to about her testimony. Let's wait and see what they actually say!
And let's just be clear here, we are not actually arguing between the two positions of "She is telling the truth" vs. "She is a liar". That is how you would LIKE to frame the discussion, but that is not what is going on. The actual dispute here, is between your position of "She is a LIAR!" and my position of "She *may be* telling the truth, we need more information to come to a determination". But you want to present any position that does not automatically accept the Team Red narrative as being "left-wing". It is not. But, that is what you do.
We know with certainty that several of her statements were wrong.
We know with certainty that the committee is failing to present all evidence, and instead is presenting a narrative. In fact, they are choosing to prefer hearsay over direct evidence.
Hutchinson's testimony is irrelevant to any legitimate purpose a congressional committee could possibly serve. So, the "narrative" doesn't matter.
What matters is that the selective broadcasting of Hutchinson's testimony just demonstrates what a partisan, corrupt, and pointless exercise this committee is.
The only statement we know for certain is wrong is that she was confused about which car Trump was in on that morning. That seems much more like an honest mistake rather than a deliberate lie.
I agree that this investigation could have gone a lot better. I wish we would have had the bipartisan commission instead, that Republicans unfortunately turned down. So if we want Jan. 6 to be investigated, this is all that we are going to get. The alternative is to sweep it under the rug, and that is not healthy at all.
It was the committee's duty to contact them first, before a public hearing with a witness talking about hearsay.
You do know that the committee interviewed her well before Tuesday's spectacle, right?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mark-meadows-january-6-violence-warning/
Funny how you won't see the usual right-wing apologists bring this up. Probably because it wasn't on The Federalist.
And they did interview Engel on June 7.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/07/jan-6-committee-interviews-head-of-trumps-secret-service-detail-on-day-of-capitol-attack-00037748
So it certainly *looks like* they are asking the first-hand Secret Service witnesses questions related to her testimony from April.
So I don't really know why the committee should have some duty to interview the Secret Service agents *again* before Tuesday's hearing.
Amazingly you were told this im the earlier thread before you even began defending Hutchinson, asking for proof. You were provided this evidence that you now use to try to prove you were not ignorant at the start of your defense.
Despite both claiming they will dispute her claims, you now use their prior testimony dates to defend her.
It is amazing cognitive bias.
You failed to mention somehow that Hutchinson had been interviewed by the committee well before Tuesday.
That’s a really lame attempt at a gotcha, Jeff. They’ve all been interviewed prior to the show trial being produced right now. Everyone knows this.
And yet despite having prior interviews with her testimony, they had her present hearsay with several points that were either knowingly or recklessly false. They either did not verify this story with the people who were present despite also interviewing them or presented the evidence despite their contradictions.
That's what irritates me. This wasn't some surprise testimony. They planned for this.
Congress is filled with lawyers with trial experience. They almost certainly got the go-ahead from the VP, a formal attorney general. Yet they decided to continue with presenting laughably false hearsay testimony to the public instead of ensuring that the data was correct or having the first-hand witnesses say it. The only possible explanation is that they wanted the salacious headlines despite knowing that the testimony was unreliable and full of falsehoods.
So you are saying that they got her testimony, then they got contradictory testimony from Herschmann and the secret service agents, and then they chose to put her on the stand on national TV testifying to hearsay, rather than having the original sources testify.
And this makes the process legitimate... how?
I don't know what the precise timeline was. But they didn't just take her testimony alone.
I will agree with you that the hearsay-level evidence doesn't necessarily help their case. I can only imagine it was because they thought it would increase visibility for their work if they went with the more salacious stories rather than dull boring ones. I wish they would stop with the stories about lunging for steering wheels or throwing catsup against the wall. Get to the real problem here, which was the illegal attempt to stop the peaceful transition of power.
They don't have a case. This congressional committee serves no legitimate purpose; it is not legitimately constituted; and it is abusing its subpoena power.
There was no illegal attempt to stop the peaceful transition of power. If that wasn't clear before the committee hearings, the testimony has made it abundantly clear.
This congressional committee serves no legitimate purpose; it is not legitimately constituted; and it is abusing its subpoena power.
None of these three statements are correct.
There was no illegal attempt to stop the peaceful transition of power.
This statement isn't correct either.
You seem to have this habit of simply declaring opinions, or even straight-up falsehoods, as if they were known facts that shouldn't be questioned.
There are multiple secret service agents.
I was talking about the ones that she alleges Trump got physical with. Those secret service agents were not contacted by the committee; they have also publicly contradicted her testimony.
I was talking about the ones that she alleges Trump got physical with.
Engel was interviewed. He was the driver that day.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/07/jan-6-committee-interviews-head-of-trumps-secret-service-detail-on-day-of-capitol-attack-00037748
Again it looks like the committee is actually interviewing the people they are supposed to be interviewing.
And the same Robert Engel goes to the media and denies this.
And WTF does any of this have to do with a legitimate congressional purpose?
It’s a show trial, they shouldn’t be interviewing anyone.
It's a Select Committee. They investigate matters of public interest. It is not some new thing. They have been around literally since the very first Congress.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select_or_special_committee_(United_States_Congress)
They already deposed these people weeks or even months ago. What you are seeing on tv is made for tv bullshit. It is the very essence of a show trial.
The Committee would have zero problems saying yes. If they wanted.
Buit they do not.
I'm remembering that I went a period of several months last year without reading a Sullum piece at all. He managed to stop talking about Trump and was slightly better, but when it comes to Trump, he makes repeated and nonstop bad faith arguments.
Given that Hutchison's "testimony before the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol" has turned out to be fabricated bullshit, which the Dems intend to repeat often enough that TDS retards like French and Sullum and dear Robby will repeat even when it's blatantly untrue, I'd say it CAN be dismissed. Very readily.
"But it does not necessarily indicate that he expected or wanted his followers to breach the Capitol, vandalize the building, or attack police officers."
Because, hey, lots of people put spear blades on the end of flagpoles for PURELY PEACEFUL PURPOSES. I do it all the time!
Trump clearly wanted his followers to use their weapons at the very least for intimidation at a minimum--to terrify the Vice President, the House, and the Senate to at the very least refuse to certify Biden's election, creating a constitutional crisis that he could somehow exploit to maintain himself in power--a recreation of the glory days of the rule of the mob during the French Revolution. The best case scenario, of course, would be for Pence to declare him the victor, and have his reelection certified by Congress. If your desperate parsing could clear him of the charge of incitement, a charge of sedition would certainly be valid, for that is clearly what he sought to accomplish. "Reason" continues to cower before the wrath of the Trump bros, who constitute a good third of the libertarian "movement".
Every time someone talks about the "deadly capitol hill" attack, I look at the list of bodies.
Exactly nobody placed a spear point on their flag that the day, but if they keep on repeating the lie...
Not just *the* lie. Lies, all of them. Pipe bombs, trucks full of weapons, beating people to death with fire extinguishers, drowning people in vats of bear spray, impromptu phalanxes of spear-bearing warriors, cavalry brigades of rebels riding orbaks bringing down star destroyers... they've utterly fucked the plot across too many narrators and executive directors even by Disney standards.
Power-lusting Trumptards slobber over the prospect of getting MOAH POWAH for themselves, at ANY costs! Ethics, principles, people, law and order, a decent future for most people… ALL can and WILL be sacrificed for MOAH POWAH for Trumpturds!
READ the below and hang your tiny brainless, power-lusting shit-head in SHAME for always taking the side of Trumpanzees, power-luster-pig!
https://www.jpost.com/international/kill-him-with-his-own-gun-dc-cop-talks-about-the-riot-655709
‘Kill him with his own gun’ – DC cop talks about Capitol riot
DC Police officer Michael Fanone: I had a choice to make: Use deadly force, which would likely result with the mob ending his life, or trying something else.
“Pro-law-and-order” Trumpturds take the side of trumpanzees going apeshit, making cops beg for their lives! For trying to defend democracy against mobocracy! Can you slime-wads sink ANY lower?!?!
So you admit nobody brought a gun?
So you admit that nobody should object if I beat them to death, with my fists, 'cause I had no weapon?
(WHERE did You say that You went to Stupid School, Oh Perfect One?)
"nobody should object if I beat them to death, with my fists"
SQRLSY One, internet tough guy.
Marxist Mammary-Necrophilia-Bitch, Expert Christian Theologian who engages in Christian identity theft and suicide-pushing, and who has ZERO intellectual, moral, or ethical credibility!
What gets me is how unnecessary it is. The Democrats already had the moral victory, given how it had happened and even hardcore republicans were upset that it had happened. Trump may have been legal in his actions, but this was too far even for his supporters.
However, the Democrats are going full Reichstag-Fire with this, trying to use it as a ploy to exclude people from the ballot. I would not be surprised in the least if they don't try and declare that voting for Trump at any time was treasonous or even tried to outlaw the Republican Party.
Well, I think they are going to add one more to the "kill count" of Jan 6th - https://nypost.com/2022/06/28/former-senate-sergeant-at-arms-michael-stenger-dies/
His crime was saying Ray Epps and FBI involvement in the riot should be investigated, so they Seth Rich-ed him
And your evidence that he knew that they even had weapons?
They didn't have weapons. Some dudes had guns in their car trunks and that was it.
Did you miss the Capital Police radio transmissions identfying the people who were carrying both long arms and handguns?
Did you miss the thousands of pictures and dozens of hours of video?
Did you miss the fact that nobody was arrested for, or even photographed with, any weapons let alone guns at the capitol.
If someone had a gun it would have been Exhibit A everywhere.
Well, also Saint Babbitt was unarmed, they say... To this I say...
What utter bullshit! A lion, tiger, or bear charges you, having NO weapons other than their body parts... Just as "un-armed" as Saint Babbitt... Are you, or are you NOT gonna shoot said predator, if you have a gun? If I beat the shit out of you, with my fists, shall I be forgiven, 'cause I was... unarmed?
My GAWD you (Saint Babbitt Worshitters) fascists are illogical!!!
(PS, when I served in the Armed Forces, I was taught MANY ways to kill... Without recognizable "weapons"!)
"when I served in the Armed Forces, I was taught MANY ways to kill..."
But that was way back in the early 1940's and your Ortsgruppenleiter made you.
Sure, we'll believe that instead of our own lying eyes. Pathetic.
I believe police think they saw guns. They see guns everywhere.
Well, if there were no weapons then there was no need to remove the magnetometers. People could just come into the speech.
Were the magnotometers ever removed?
Is there any evidence that they were even asked to be removed?
Hearsay is not evidence, mind you.
Transcripts have Ms. Hutchinson reporting she heard the President demanding that magnetometers be removed. No hearsay here.
Assuming that it happened, the president believing that his supporters won't harm him and don't need to be checked for weapons amounts to an insurrection... how?
Were they removed? Yes or no? Was she in charge of them? If not why is her overhearing the statements used instead of using depositions from those trump was talking to?
You and Jeff are so fucking desperate.
Literally hearsay, actually. She's saying she heard something someone else said. Definitionally, textbook, hearsay.
"I heard him say-"
"Objection, hearsay."
And the simple answer is that he wanted to speed things up so that he could give his speech. Metal detectors slow down lines considerably. Do you have any evidence that he had any reason other than the obvious one?
And ThinkingMind, this is one situation in which it's not hearsay. She is saying he gave an order and she heard him give the order. That's direct evidence, just like if he was talking to her.
Hearsay would be if someone told her that Trump had given an order.
"Transcripts have Ms. Hutchinson reporting she heard the President demanding that magnetometers be removed. No hearsay here."
Her testimony is the hearsay.
Well, yes, that is why Hutchinson's story makes no sense.
Because he was told that they were armed. Prior to going on-stage.
Cite? Difficulty. Don't use hearsay.
By who?
So supposedly this went done something like this?
Secret Service: "Hey, Mr. President, we spotted some people with AR-15's out in the crowd."
President: "Oh, they won't harm me, remove the magnetometers."
Secret Service: "We can't do that. But just go out and speak anyway, it will be fine!"
President: "OK"
That makes no sense on so many levels.
Right?!
Now do BLM riots all spring and summer into the fall, with local politicians egging them on, even handing over control of wide areas, yanking the police out.
Now do the recent calls by lefties to burn down the Supreme Court.
Then get back to me about Trump a year and a half ago; if this is the best evidence you could get, after a year and a half, with the entire power of the government, then you ain't got jack shit.
You've never seen flagpoles? They have spear points like, a lot.
SOME OF THOSE FLAGPOLES WEIGHED UPWARDS OF TWENTY OUNCES! THE PROTESTERS MIGHT HAVE SHARPENED THE ENDS! THEY MAKE KNIVES OUT OF ALUMINUM YOU KNOW! - t. White Mike
What would they have done if he was armed with a banana?
Suppose I'm attacked by a man with a banana and I haven't got a gun?
You release the tiger. Duh.
They would have had to appeal to his humanity to survive.
If MAGA finally does decide on violence, you won't be around to talk about it afterwards
Laughing!
Right, there might be a few of the more stupid ones who would hold under fire but the majority of them are cowards who would be stampeding at the first shots fired. There sure as hell weren't a bunch of them trying to bull rush the Chambers after securty popped Babbitt.
Yep. Because they WEREN'T ARMED!
What's your address?
Satan J. Trump
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW.
Washington, D.C. 20500
(Maybe He left a forwarding address. It’s the best I can do, sorry!)
"stampeding at the first shots fired"
Legitimate protesters often do that when they're unarmed. Less so when they aren't.
Don’t fear the revolt!
(insurrection)!
All our times have come
Here, but now they’re gone
Seasons don’t fear the revolt
Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain
(We can be like they are)
Come on, baby
(Don’t fear the revolt)
Baby, take my hand
(Don’t fear the revolt)
We’ll be able to fly
Baby, I’m your man
La, la la, la la
La, la la, la la
Valentine is done
Here but now they’re gone
Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbs
Are together in eternity
(Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbitt)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel
Horst Wessel and Bryan Sicknick
Are together in eternity
(Horst Wessel and Bryan Sicknick )
Who lay in state in the rotunda, had a state funeral and was buried in Arlington as a martyr of Jan 6, ᛋᛋqrlsy?
There's your Horst Wessel, you slimey Nazi fuck.
See, right there, the entire "armed insurrection narrative" falls apart.
Those of us with a will and sense of purpose didn't go give up our bodily rights to fight (read: die) for globalist special interests in Ukraine. Nor did we "Insurrect" anything. If anything worth fighting for comes out of this dumpster fire of a broken Constitutional Republic, you'll be the last to notice. It doesn't look like Black-Mask wearing incels getting their biceps blown apart. It doesn't even look like leftists setting fire to courthouses. It is something you clearly don't understand.
Trying to NOT have your nation enslaved by power-lusting, nationalistic-tribalistic oligarchs is now just serving "globalist special interests"? Are you moving to utopian Ukraine soon, I hope?
I was well aware of the history of Ukraine prior to it being injected into your consciousness like the next mind experiment to a batch of lab rats. I knew Victoria Nuland and other Westerners took control of Ukraine in a Coup in 2014. I knew that they used -THE EXACT SAME- techniques to divide and conquer the populace as they do in tribal areas and here. The new 'Sunni Vs. Shia' manufactured debacle in Ukraine resulted in Zelensky using ARTILLERY ON ETHIC RUSSIANS IN THE DONBASS for 8 long years while none of you noticed. Furthermore, I know the reasons Russia felt significantly provoked to defend itself from this escalating aggression at its border. In short, I know more than you, so all you're being is smugnorant.
Because, hey, lots of people put spear blades on the end of flagpoles for PURELY PEACEFUL PURPOSES.
Note how believing the Dem media leads to a failure to understand reality.
Look at inflation and gas prices.
Do you wish that they had succeeded?
No.
Losing the process of a peaceful transfer of power is far more costly than $5/gal gas.
What would you describe using the IC to attack a political rival? Shits and/or giggles?
Hey Damiksec, damiskec, and damikesc, and ALL of your other socks…
How is your totalitarian scheme to FORCE people to buy Reason magazines coming along?
Free speech (freedom from “Cancel Culture”) comes from Facebook, Twitter, Tik-Tok, and Google, right? THAT is why we need to pass laws to prohibit these DANGEROUS companies (which, ugh!, the BASTARDS, put profits above people!)!!! We must pass new laws to retract “Section 230” and FORCE the evil corporations to provide us all (EXCEPT for my political enemies, of course!) with a “UBIFS”, a Universal Basic Income of Free Speech!
So leftist “false flag” commenters will inundate Reason-dot-com with shitloads of PROTECTED racist comments, and then pissed-off readers and advertisers and buyers (of Reason magazine) will all BOYCOTT Reason! And right-wing idiots like Damikesc will then FORCE people to support Reason, so as to nullify the attempts at boycotts! THAT is your ultimate authoritarian “fix” here!!!
“Now, to “protect” Reason from this meddling here, are we going to REQUIRE readers and advertisers to support Reason, to protect Reason from boycotts?”
Yup. Basically. Sounds rough. (Quote damikesc)
(Etc.)
See https://reason.com/2020/06/24/the-new-censors/
And Jeff claims he isnt retarded.
Ideas! Reason, logic, and facts, JesseBahnFuhrer-style, in emulation of the "wisdom" of JesseBahnFuhrer's One True Hero!
“I use emotion for the many and reserve reason for the few.” Quote Adolf Hitler, https://byrslf.co/50-quotes-by-adolf-hitler-that-will-inspire-you-to-achieve-your-goals-in-life-62b43c5c9f2c
As we are discovering, and paying for, every day.
Many flagpoles come with decorative spear blades, dipshit.
"Yes, but soft, hollow plastic bits on the end can still take out an officer armed with a gun. The stress gives them strokes" - t. mike
Considering the Dems present were terrified, traumatized and driven to hysterical sobbing* by largely unarmed people a half-mile away in another building, I'd say intimidation by even a single "blade on a flagpole" is pretty plausible.
Not rational, but plausible.
*-Rep Kinzinger has sobbed every time he is forced to remember that fateful day, when nothing happened and he was in no danger. I think his constituents would be cruel to expect him to carry on working in the very place he nearly, errr...conceivably could have...uh...where imagined himself to have a statistical long shot of a remote possibility of being slightly injured. The trauma is clearly to much for him.
Is AV a Joe Asshole sock? Sure looks that way.
Well, yes, they do. They are called "flag pole toppers".
I mean, are you effing serious? You think Trump was at the head of a grand conspiracy to topple the future US government, instructing his minions to use nothing but flag pole toppers?
That's even more stupid than peegate.
"...That's even more stupid than peegate."
It's Vanneman; "stupid" is just the beginning; add TDS-addled shit-pile at least.
Flagpoles generally have an ornamental tip, unless they are homemade. They tend to have an eagle, an orb, or a spear tip.
They are usually made of plastic these days.
The buffalo hat guy carried a pole with a tip that looked sort of like a native spear, to match his cosplay, I suppose. He never tried to poke anyone with it, though.
This is really getting silly.
I get the desire to imagine that Trump and the buffalo hat guy had a comprehensive plan to take over the government by walking around in the capitol building taking selfies for an hour or two.
It was recently pointed out to me that if Trump had wanted in insurrection, he could have actually called for one. If he had, it is reasonable to assume that lots of angry people would have showed up, and they would would have come armed.
Instead, he asked people to "peacefully and patriotically" make their voices heard.
What I saw was the result of poor crowd control. Pretending that it was worse than 9/11 or Pearl Harbor makes it hard to take any of it seriously. It took a day or two to repair the windows and clean the carpets.
When leftists actually bombed the Senate, or brought guns into the gallery and shot a bunch of congressmen, democratic presidents commuted their sentences and freed them from jail.
Will Sollum's TDS never end?
So many Reason articles have complained about rigged trials, forged evidence, excluding black jurors, and a zillion other travesties of our judicial system. Yet here the Dems are using Hollywood producers for a fantastic (in every meaning of the word) show trial, excluding contrary witnesses, excluding right to confront witnesses, and all Reason has done is quote from it favorably.
The show trial even justifies (1.5 years later) Trump's second impeachment.
What a joke!
And hearsay is now "bombshell evidence".
^So much this^
Donald Trump killed regime libertarianism. Well, strictly, not so much Donald Trump, but regime libertarianism's reaction to Donald Trump. The travesties you talk about that regime libertarianism deigned to ignore were the sort of things I'd come to believe were the bedrock of libertarianism. I mean, different people with different metaphysics can arrive at different conclusions about abortion. Or immigration. Or same sex state marriage. But, due process? The presumption of innocence? Not locking up your opponents? These are things I'd always took as, if you don't believe in that, you don't believe in libertarianism. And the regime libertarians walked away from these principles as if they were minor details. There's really no coming back together after that. Or at least none that I can see. Being down with pot, Mexicans and ass sex when you're willing to dismiss those things sounds like little more than bread and circuses for people who happen to like pot, Mexicans and ass sex. And if regime libertarians want to bring up due process for an inner city gangbanger after dispensing with it for Trump and his supporters, what honest conclusion is one to draw than that regime libertarians just happen to have a softer spot in their heart for inner city gangbangers than Trump and his supporters.
Bill batting 1000.
Regime libertarians are to Libertarians, what neocons are to fiscal conservatives. Phonies, Are use bread and circuses to appease the peons and peasants, while controlling regulating and taxing everything else. (If there were any non-authoritative liberals left, I would say the same to them Compared to the Progresses but……)
What the heck is "regime libertarianism"? Were libertarians installed in the halls of power at some point and nobody noticed?
But, due process? The presumption of innocence? Not locking up your opponents?
Who here is arguing to throw Trump in jail without a trial or due process? Anyone? Maybe Tony or Joe Friday are, but none of the libertarians are, "regime" or otherwise.
Like "free speech", "due process" has two meanings. The first is a strict narrow definition that the law and the Constitution require. The second is a broader definition that speaks more to a cultural value of "fairness".
And yes, I think that to be a libertarian must mean that one must agree with due process at least from a strict, narrow perspective. That due process is absolutely something that the government must afford those formally accused of crimes. If one does not believe that, then one really is some flavor of authoritarian.
But when it comes to using the term "due process" as a stand-in for a cultural value of "fairness", that is very much in the eye of the beholder. Sure, it would be nice for everyone to be fair to everyone else. But there is no mandate to do so. And especially when it comes to politicians (not formally accused of crimes), they quite often don't deserve "fairness" or the "benefit of the doubt". IMO there is no libertarian imperative to be "fair" for fairness' sake. FFS, if the Libertarian Party can now make the argument that bigots are welcome in the party, what exactly is so objectionable again when it comes to people who are unfair?
Do you think investigating a man and searching for a crime instead of investigating crimes is due process?
investigating a man and searching for a crime
You mean, like how every single politician ever has been treated?
Answer the question jeff. Do you think it is justice to search a man to find a crime instead of searching a crime to find a man?
Answer. The. Fucking. Question.
You claim to have principles.
No. But that is how every president is treated. Every opposition party tries their best to find whatever scandal they can about the president no matter how weak it is. So don't try to pretend that Trump is some special snowflake in this regard.
Fortunately, the political process associated with dredging up scandals against politicians, is not equivalent to the formal legal process in which all are guaranteed due process.
"Finding a scandal" is not the same as what the Democrats have done: abused the impeachment process twice, fabricated evidence, lied to FISA courts, and now holding a partisan congressional inquiry.
All of those aren't just attempts to "find scandals", they are abusing subpoena and other legal powers to go on a fishing expedition.
It is on par with virtually every presidential scandal for the past 40 years.
With Clinton, Republicans dragged out the Whitewater investigation until they could find something to pin on Clinton.
Do you remember Reagan and Iran-Contra? Democrats used that as an excuse to stop everything and investigate absolutely everything.
Remember Bush Sr. and the so-called "October Surprise"? Conveniently trotted out in October of 1988.
Remember Bush Jr. and the last-minute "Bush DUI arrest"? Remember TANG-gate and the fake memos?
What happened to Trump is on par with all of these. It's his extreme narcissism that leads him to believe that he was treated especially unfair.
These “regime libertarians” sound like code for libertarians who won’t turn a blind eye to Trump’s evils.
"Will Sollum's TDS never end?..."
Nope.
It's become the shit-pile's reason for living.
When they take him into a padded cell, pump him full of antipsychotics, and have scantily dressed nurses sing lullabies to him.
I heard from other people it didn't. So no.
I heard it through the grapevine. And the coconut telegraph.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/bullsht-claim-trump-lunged-steering-wheel-jan-6-discredited-secret-service
Jfc Sullum. How fast did you bang this out that you couldn't even wait for confirmation - like the J6 committee.
And here we are, just hours later and her 'testimony' (it was hearsay) is already debunked.
Your TDS is pathetic man. You've done real work in the past and this is what you've lowered yourself to.
Her testimony was debunked 12+ hours ago.
Soave and Sullum are going full Goebbels.
No, it is holding up well.
Lol.
It's holding up as well as Peegate!
Like, Reason let this article go live *hours* after that testimony was debunked.
Where is this "debunking"?
Dear Jeff, She wasn’t actually on scene by, her own admittance - She claims her testimony a secondhand, the people who were Actually with Trump (Secret service and driver) deny that what she claimed. She claimed Trump was riding in the wrong vehicle.
Literally hearsay, that Is contradicted by first-hand information. That’s fairly debunked, For anyone not suffering from TDS.
Jeff is a true believer. He has gone full leftist retard in the last week. Doesn't even pretend he isnt anymore.
You on the other hand are totally not a shill for Team Red. Oh no no no.
You still don't get it, do you? Half of Republicans and independents didn't like Trump. We didn't vote for him. We don't agree with many of his political positions. We'd prefer some other Republican would take over his prominent role.
But the utterly reprehensible abuse of power by Democrats has pretty much unified us. Nothing Trump ever comes even close to the attack on our democracy, the rule of law, and just basic common decency we have seen from the Democrats, Hillary, Pelosi, Schumer, etc. And Trump's competency and presidency was a golden age compared to the shitshow we are getting from Biden. I mean, Trump has even turned out to have been more honest and less corrupt than Biden, and that is something.
"They made me do it!"
Sorry, you are responsible for your own affirmative choices. I do not buy the entire "Democrat made me do it" baloney.
Nothing Trump ever comes even close to the attack on our democracy, the rule of law, and just basic common decency we have seen from the Democrats, Hillary, Pelosi, Schumer, etc.
If you only read right-wing news sources, I can see how you might believe that.
This is what the partisan media strategy looks like:
Step 1: Tell you not to read media outside of their ideological bubble. They can't be trusted. They are "fake news". They are "corporate media".
Step 2: Now that they have your captive attention, they lie to you - most frequently, lying by omission. They tell you facts, but they leave out context, or even other relevant facts, to lead you to a misleading conclusion.
Step 3: Create a sense of solidarity, so that when others from outside of the ideological bubble try to point out the obvious propagandizing that is going on, the partisan media spins it into an attack on you, the loyal supporter. "They attack us because they HATE YOU! We present facts but because we don't support their agenda, they launch baseless attacks against YOU! We fight for a worthy cause and only by standing together against the forces of evil can we hope to win!"
By this point, the reader is so heavily emotionally and ideologically invested, that the partisan media outlets can feed almost anything to you and they will have loyal footsoldiers willing to spread their message far and wide as preachers preaching the gospel.
That isn't just right-wing partisan media, but left-wing partisan media too. It's just that right-wing partisan media is what we here at Reason happen to be inflicted with the most.
So yes, Democrats are not just wrong ideologically, they are a most grave threat to the health of the Republic itself. You so believe this and have so internalized this through reading thousands of articles from right-wing media that delivers this message to you day in and day out nonstop that is an unquestioned article of faith.
And Jeff continues to defend government abuses against his enemies.
"Made me do" what?
No, I came to this conclusion about a decade ago, when my media consumption consisted entirely of NYT, CNN, and NPR. I still follow those outlets, but you are right: I also read "right-wing media" now, because left wing media have become pure propaganda outlets, staffed by batshit crazy 20-something woke writers.
I experienced socialism, authoritarianism, and propaganda first hand; I can identify it quite well, thank you very much.
"I had no choice but to vote for Republicans, since Democrats are so evil!" That's what you said, right? Democrat conduct was SO TERRIBLE that you were left with no other option.
I also read "right-wing media" now, because left wing media have become pure propaganda outlets
Do you think there is any propagandizing going on with "right-wing media"?
No jeff, he didn't say anything about voting for Republicans.
NOYB2 didn’t say anything about Democrats making him do anything.
Come on man.
I've criticized the right multiple times in the last week. Lol. What the fuck jeff? Why do you even try.
Uh huh sure.
She wasn’t actually on scene by, her own admittance
That is true. Which is a reason to be a bit skeptical.
She claims her testimony a secondhand, the people who were Actually with Trump (Secret service and driver) deny that what she claimed.
That is true, but we don't know the precise details of their objection. Let's hear what they have to say, shall we?
She claimed Trump was riding in the wrong vehicle.
Actually, so did Engel, *the actual driver*, when he was giving testimony to the committee.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/07/jan-6-committee-interviews-head-of-trumps-secret-service-detail-on-day-of-capitol-attack-00037748
Robert Engel was the special agent in charge on Jan. 6, 2021, meaning he was responsible for protecting the president from “socks on to socks off” — the whole work day. In that role, he rode from the White House to that day’s “Stop the Steal” rally with Trump in the presidential armored car called “The Beast.”
Maybe, "The Beast" does not refer to a specific armored car, but could refer to one of many different armored cars that the president might use.
The trip under discussion was not one the one from the White House to the rally, but the return trip.
So he rode in two different cars? Well then. It would be understandable for there to be a source of confusion about which car he was in.
It was the committee's duty to get all the testimony before putting this witness in front of the American public.
This is a show trial, nothing more.
Wow. He got dumber.
If you keep grasping at straws, your strawman are going to come unstuffed. You already admitted the girl has no validity or importance wasn’t there, and was reciting or creating a rumor.
As far as rumor goes, the scuttlebutt is is that she did not get a job promotion she wanted from Trump and was Offered book deals From progressives.
Guess which rumor sounds more likely:
-A: An opportunistic, greedy woman With an ax to grind, Spreads nasty rumors about her old boss
VS.
-B: An 70+ year old man overpowering over his security, jumping a car seat, to Carjack his own car. (This is trump, NOT Chuck Norris)
No, her account matches that of others. The people in the vehicle with the President. She was told by one of those people in the vehicle what happened, and she was told in the presence of a second person also in the vehicle. So, Mr. Ornato and Mr. Engle need to testify if the conversation with Ms Hutchinson happened and if it was different than she said it was.
She’s as credible a witness as Blaise-Ford.
He's still trying to get a job with the New York Times. He figures if he spouts their fiction enough they might give him one.
Hey, give him a break. He can't type that fast with only one hand.
I heard Sullum tried to molest a little girls dance team
Must be true then.
Sure seems like something Sullum would do.
By today's standards, that's enough to convict.
Is that like a dance team comprised of little people? And what exactly do you mean by "girls", bigot?
Given French's long record as a defender of the First Amendment, his take cannot be readily dismissed.
That's like saying, "Given the ACLU's long record as a defender of the First Amendment, their editorial on Amber Heard cannot be readily dismissed."
French works for The Dispatch, an explicitly anti-Trump organ, he is not a disinterested party. It is possible he may be correct, but his pronouncements have to be taken with a grain of salt.
French has no record as a defender of the 1st amendment.
Only TeenReason would hold up a ferocious neocon as a principled defender.
Reason seems inordinately fond of neocons.
Jeff says those guys are “principled conservatives”.
I would regard a Republican who does not change his definition of conservatism to match whatever garbage spews out of Trump's mouth should earn some consideration for principle. We may not agree with their principles, but they ought to earn marks for sticking to them.
Weird how you think conservatives become "principled" whenever they ape and parrot Democrat talking points, but not when they stick to conservative ones.
No, I think conservatives are principled if, when confronted with the choice between conservatism and Trump, choose conservatism.
By the way, you know what else used to be "Democrat talking points"?
- Protectionism
- Protecting Social Security and Medicare
- Not judging a politician by his boorish and immoral personal behavior
But when Trump adopted all of these, suddenly, they became Team Red canon. Funny that.
Lol. Begs the question to pile onto the bullshit.
Beat me to it.
Protectionism is a traditional Republican position. Read Robert A. Taft on the subject.
Hutchison's testimony died so young, the teacher's union didn't even have time to groom it.
Didn't even have time to get to the abortion clinic.
Sweet.
The pee tape, the Russian collusion, the Ukraine call, this latest testimony . . . I'm sure that if we just keep throwing shit up against the wall, *something* will eventually stick.
https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1542199551167045635?t=8SOOUT-1IQ07tpSnbhcBtg&s=19
Children march in protest of #RoeVWade being overturned chanting “bring Roe back.” They appear to be part of a camp and are being led by staff.
[Video]
Not the first time proggies have used children as shields.
Gotta train up the coming SS
They appear to be part of a camp and are being led by staff.
Led by staff to what... a gas chamber?
These ones are being trained up as soldiers.
This is about their mothers' right to have aborted them. So what kind of soldiers... Kamikaze pilots for Roe?
I mean, Jesus, imagine a mother sticking a sign into her kid's hand which reads, "My mother could have chosen differently, protect that choice!" and sent him into a protest march.
No worries. When these kids grow up they'll be sending their parents to the gulag for wrongthink.
"We must respect and obey the Comrade Children."—Pol Pot
Children march in protest of #RoeVWade being overturned
Thirtieth trimester fetuses doing anything to dodge a postpartum abortion.
Planned Parenthood has been running indoctrination programs for literally decades. In SW Florida the local PP kids outfit is called The Source and was ostensibly a teen theatre troupe, but they did weekend retreats and all sorts of "encounter group" type stuff. Now they do full multimedia, but the goal is the same - indoctrination.
Hitler Youth
Given French's long record as a defender of the First Amendment, his take cannot be readily dismissed.
Given his long record of prioritizing his Trump hatred over the law his take cannot be considered an exercise in reasonable judgment.
In reality Trump made a statement against violence in three hours. By comparison it took Joe Biden six days to make a tepid statement (by twitter) about far worse and more consistent violence. Naturally the very people who want to condemn Trump held Biden's anti-violence statement up as proof of his principled reaction rather than a fig-leaf ass covering.
If you want to be convincing you need to show the standard you're applying hasn't been invented just to attack Trump. Unfortunately you can't show that because it was.
And this is different from the other side promoting the "Russians®™ Stole the 2016 Election" because...
It's reality
Sullum is an evil piece of shit who committed treason in covering up an illegitimate election.
His life is forfeit.
"And this is different from the other side promoting the "Russians®™ Stole the 2016 Election" because..."
Because he spend millions of dollars of tax payer money to form a committee to write a report to prove it happened and got multiple people arrested for crimes not pertaining to the "crime" in question. Oh wait, that was the other guys...
Here's the quo for NATO's quid.
Notably, Turkey uses the Russian S400 AA system, which is why the US refused to sell them American fighters.
https://www.newsmax.com/world/globaltalk/f-16-jets-turkey-biden-administration/2022/06/29/id/1076588/
She added that the committee "has obtained police radio transmissions identifying individuals with firearms, including AR-15s, near the Ellipse on the morning of January 6th."....."Tony had related to me something to the effect of 'These effing people are fastening spears onto the ends of flagpoles.'"
It is so bizarre that even though we know with absolute certainty this is fog of war / paranoid bullshit people desiring to get Trump insist we treat it as if it were true.
These ridiculous people will say anything no matter how absurd to maintain their political fantasy.
Yup, precisely.
No. Any other ridiculous questions?
Anyone care to set a money line on whether the committee will call the two USSS agents who seem to be willing to testify and refute her testimony regarding the "incident" in the SUV?
SUV? What SUV? No one saw an SUV!
Those little old ladies committed suicide.
(and another not so little old lady will join them soon)
I don't think I've ever seen a better example of Betteridge's law in the wild.
https://thepostmillennial.com/ilhan-omar-calls-for-impeachment-investigation-into-conservative-scotus-justices
they are so fucking predictable
AOC was yelling about that last week. Omar needs to keep up!
busy on vacation with her brother I mean husband
Just for the record:
https://thefederalist.com/2022/06/29/new-j6-narrative-about-trump-and-secret-service-collapses-hours-after-tuesday-hearing/
Reason has developed all of the respect for reality that the flat earth society has.
Hours and hours after that script of hearsay was read to Pelosi's Personally Picked Posse, Reason still believes.
RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA!
This posted AFTER we knew she was perjuring herself. AFTER! And there's not one word about everybody present saying she's full of it.
This is beyond standard TDS, I honestly don't believe you don't know this is total BS.
At this point you're simply outright committing libel. This is despicable.
And to think I had a subscription to this rag for years, way back when.
Why are the claims in the Federalist article correct, but Hutchinson's claims incorrect?
You expect us all to believe that someone disagrees with Hutchinson's testimony, that that alone constitutes a "debunking"?
Hutchinson said Trump "lunged" for the steering wheel. Engle said he didn't. Which one should we believe?
Hutchinson said that she wrote that handwritten note. Herschmann said that he wrote it. Which one should we believe?
And again jeff doesn't seek evidence to support an assertion, but demands others find evidence to dismiss it. And he goes far to dismiss any direct evidence showing her testimony is false.
If Hutchison, by her own admission, wasn’t there, then sorry, she shouldn’t be getting the benefit of the doubt.
There seems to be a consistent theme…
She testified under oath, which says something.
When it comes to "the note", she absolutely was present.
Yeah, she testified that "Somebody said something to the effect of...". Over and over "to the effect of".
Even if she weren't just a propaganda prop, with vague statements like that, she can embellish all she wants and still escape perjury charges.
Her testimony is worthless.
I don’t understand why her being under oath is so important to you. She wasn’t in the suv, so her sworn testimony should carry the same weight as yours.
Being under oath means that she is willing to face punishment for an incorrect statement, unlike simply repeating rumors or gossip when not under oath.
Being under oath in front of congress means exactly jack and shit. If lying under oath to congress actually meant anything, Clapper and Brennan would have been arrested for lying about literally violating every American's 4th amendment rights.
More over, at least some of her statements were absolutely hearsay which means she could never perjure herself because there's no way to prove she didn't hear someone say something. So even if Congress actually did something about people lying to them, she's served her purpose of putting these statements out there for the lemmings to lap up like so much pee on a Russian hooker in a hotel room.
Hit submit too soon.
I will also note, we here in the comments routinely scoff at courts using eye witness accounts in all manner of no-knock raids and whatever poor soul has been shot by a cop that actually makes the headlines.
Hutchinson said Ornato told her that he heard from Engle that Trump lunged.
Ornato and Engle say it did not happen.
Hutchinson is an unemployed 25 year old, who is angry that she did not get a job at Mar-A-Lago. Ornato and Engle are current senior Secret Service and DOJ officials, whose service long predates Trump.
They could all be lying, I suppose.
They could all be lying, I suppose.
No no, that is not possible, according to Reason commenters:
Hutchinson: Trump lunged for the steering wheel!
Engel: I don't think that's what happened, here let me give my side of the story.
Jesse et al.: NOPE NO NEED, THAT ALONE SETTLES IT, STORY DEBUNKED, HUTCHINSON IS A LIAR
So you are saying that Trump, spry 78 year old, fought off two secret service agents while strangling a third with one hand and steering the car with another? This after being told for four years by Democrats that the man can barely walk and needs to be removed from office for medical reasons?
Remarkable recovery! Looks like he's ready for a second term!
"Did Cassidy Hutchinson's Testimony Clinch the Incitement Case Against Trump?
JACOB SULLUM | 6.29.2022 3:05 PM"
It takes a special kind of journolismer to release an article about testimony that even ABC, NBC and CNN (yes even CNN) debunked almost 20 hours earlier.
It was held up in editing. You know how much attention they pay to that around here.
is hot in Texas. takes a bit for the day to really get going down here.
The former president's recklessness is beyond dispute
True believers gotta believe.
"Go home with love and in peace" Totally reckless.
TDS is fatal for most people. They never regain normal brain functionality.
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1542235623569981445?t=2NAYkNU5Du0-KWwqhrbDcg&s=19
Run a Google News search for "suddenly died" and set it for 2022
I don't get it.
So going through all that, it would seem that the "crime" Trump committed was not conceding the election, which resulted, eventually, in the Jan 6 protesters to try to storm the Capitol. However, the evidence that that was Trump's intended result is flimsy, with some exculpatory evidence. French dismissing Trump's calls for the protest to be "peaceful" because, apparently French can read Trump's mind. Not conceding the election may be ungentlemanly, but it is not a crime in itself. All you have shown is that Trump is a whiner, and a bad sport, which was known prior.
"Did Cassidy Hutchinson's Testimony Clinch the Incitement Case Against Trump?"
Did she give any testimony that wouldn't be excluded from a court of law on the basis of being hearsay?
Quick, without Googling it...
Explain to us the legal defination of "Hearsay" as well as the legal exceptions.
And this isn't a court of Law, it's a congressional committee. If it were a court of Law the opposition would be allowed to cross examine under oath and you'd see Mark Meadows sitting in the hot seat pleading the Fifth. Then by definition the evidence of what she heard Mark Meadows say 'out of court' would in fact not be considered hearsay and would be allowed as evidence.
A legal scholar you ain't, but I'll bet you think Don the Con was a stable genius.
"something to the effect of ..."
Granted, it is not a trial, which means it cannot clinch a case for anything. That was the question in the headline of this article. If you have problem with that, take it up with Reason's headline writer.
"...Don the Con..."
TDS-addled shit-piles and their 3rd grade humor.
Did you get lost on your way to the Huff or Washington Posts?
If you believe in the ideals behind our Rules of Evidence, the adversarial system, and the premise that someone should always attempt to argue against the prevailing beliefs, how can you view the J6C as anything other than a disgusting disinfomercial?
Yes, she claimed to be the author of a certain handwritten note.
But it would appear that bit of testimony is being walked back.
It has been conclusively shown that she did not write the note?
https://abc11.com/jan-6-hearing-cassidy-hutchinson-trump-secret-service-handwritten-note/12003625/
Poor Cassidy, she's forever marked herself as a perjurer just so Joe Biden could get a brief distraction.
Okay? We still don't know who actually wrote the note. We have instead two people who claim authorship. How about a handwriting analysis?
Why do you automatically believe Herschmann is telling the truth but Hutchinson is lying?
One of them is lying. Both of them have been trotted out in front of the cameras for the show trial, so eventually the truth will come out. That is going to be super embarrassing for the idiots running it, if they had any shame that is.
One of them is at least mistaken. Again, lying implies a particular state of mind, an intent to deceive. A simple misunderstanding or a faulty recollection is not the same as an intent to deceive.
Sullum you should really commit suicide. You are too retarded to be useful
I am simply amazed at the amount of right wing Trumpettes that frequently post on a Libertarian site. I didn't even think you morons could read past the 5th grade level.
From the comments some of you make I was correct in that assessment at least.
You're peddling thoroughly discredited bullshit but everyone else is retarded.
You've been peddling thoroughly discredited bullshit, but somehow everyone else is retarded.
Act Blue sends their lowest GPA interns here. Reason needs to become more popular.
Not at all amazed at the number of TDS-addled piles of shit who show up to make their obsession obvious.
Eat shit and die, asshole.
Yay. Some new asshole's here, who seems to have managed to made it through 1L and now thinks he's smart and educated.
Or has one of the usual clowns binge watched some Law & Order episodes and decided to put on a new sock?
The only possible explanation for someone calling bullshit on any of this is because they’re rabid trump supporters. Sure buddy.
No, just reflexively believing the right-wing narrative.
Or, and hear me out on this, sometimes the right wing narrative is correct and you don’t have to be reflexively against it just because a right-wing source is pushing it.
My rule of thumb is that no partisan narrative is ever fully correct, because the world is never as simple as these simplistic narratives wish to pretend it is.
Your rule of thumb seems to be "no partisain narrative is ever fully correct, but I'm going to give Democrats the benefit of the doubt and automatically assume the worst about Republicans". Fair enough, I can admit I do the opposite more often than not.
Look I can understand being skeptical of her claims. I will be the first to admit that some of them seem rather outlandish. I am not so sure about the "lunging" thing. I am not so sure about Trump telling the Secret Service to get rid of the metal detectors. Those seem a bit far-fetched to me.
But skepticism of her claims is different than declaring her to be a LIAR who has been DEBUNKED.
IMO, if a person goes beyond mere skepticism, to believing that she is an actual liar, then if that person is not a 'rabid Trump supporter', then that person is someone who reflexively adopts the right-wing narrative.
"Look I can understand being skeptical of her claims... But skepticism of her claims is different than declaring her to be a LIAR who has been DEBUNKED."
Everyone she claimed she was quoting have now publicly gone on record to say she's lying, and are willing to swear out statements attesting to it. Including Secret Service officials. That's debunking.
If you were honestly skeptical it would be undeniable to you.
Everyone she claimed she was quoting have now publicly gone on record to say she's lying, and are willing to swear out statements attesting to it. Including Secret Service officials.
But that's not true.
There is a disagreement about what precisely happened. That a disagreement exists does not necessarily mean one party is LYING.
The Secret Service agents did not claim she was LYING. They said instead that they disagreed with her version of events and were willing to testify to present their version of events.
I think this is a case where you overstate what happened in order to shill for Team Red.
Read your comment again, but switch around the parties and tell me that is you aren't shilling.
Everyone has flat-out contradicted her testimony, but you're still clutching on to it with white knuckles even as it crashes into the ground. It's fire extinguishers all over again.
I would have bailed hours ago, because you now know we will be reminding you of this forever.
That's because you falsely believe that standing up to a massive abuse of power and corruption of the rule of law amounts to being a "Trumpette" just because he happens to be the target of those abuses.
I don't want Trump to run again. But I do want the Democrats to be held responsible for their actions, both at the ballot box and, in several cases, through impeachment and criminal prosecutions.
>>There is no question that Donald Trump's rhetoric and inaction before and during the 2021 Capitol riot were reckless
I question these things.
What cracks me up is Sullum's inability to see the forest for the trees here. He's so focused on who said what at what time on the phone in a room next to someone who overheard someone else saying something, that he literally doesn't realize that the entire POINT of these Jan 6 hearings are to keep Trump from running in 2024. That's it. I keep hoping that Sullum will have this kind of moment.
And I strongly recommend you click through my link for the lulz. It's short, one minute thirty. But it's a hilarious example of someone realizing how a huge, international news controversy wasn't about what it purported to be about.
Haha, yeah that's quite the moment to catch yourself in on video.
Seemed pretty clear to me once everyone started shrieking "insurrection" over and over that the whole point was to stop Trump and others from running for office.
That was a pretty funny epiphany.
Well I don't know if it's about using state power to formally prohibit him from running. But it certainly is about poisoning the well if he does try to run again.
So maybe we should be condemning these actions? You know, if we believe in free and fair elections?
Sure I guess, but it is also par for the course for Congress to use its investigative powers to try to influence the result of an election.
Look at what Republicans did with the Benghazi hearings. They waited until a few months before the 2014 midterms to launch their investigation (of course), and then they dragged Hillary in there while Democrats were having their 2016 presidential primary debates to try to influence that outcome.
It would be nice for Congress to use its investigative powers in a more neutral manner but I don't think that is even possible.
Yes, but it is not par for the course for Congress to abuse its investigative powers with a partisan committee with no legitimate congressional purposes that uses a TV producer for the proceedings for maximum impact, while throwing people who claim executive privilege in leg irons. That really is not par for the course.
I think there was more evidence of her neglect and there was definitely more evidence of her wrong doing vis a vis the unsecured server in her broom closet than of Trump masterminding some bullshit conspiracy to overthrow our republic.
But I would agree that it’s unseemly for either party to poison the well in general.
The committee, "has obtained police radio transmissions identifying individuals with firearms, including AR-15s, near the Ellipse on the morning of January 6th."
Okay. Let's hear it, then. Play the tapes. Also, where are the arrest records of the people carrying the AR-15s?
There were news reports on 9/11 of a bomb going off at the entrance to the State Department. I remember it specifically because I thought "Holy shit! I have been right there!" at the time.
The question "What was reported?" is irrelevant. The question that the committee should be answering is "Was it true?".
The should be. But they won't, because these hearings are not concerned with what's true.
I agree, I would like to hear the tapes as well.
Yeah, play the audio and compare it to all of the AR-15s seen on video at any point.
LOL! At least Sullum learned one thing from Trump. How to troll reactions from his detractors.
Instead of ignoring this, you idiots will run up the comment count to 300+ and Sullum will get a pat on the back.
so don't post go Flyers?
Joke's on you, my ad blocker's on.
And you added one to the total.
It's a delicate balance. Got to keep them going so we have a place to come and argue and waste time all day.
Geez I underestimated the depths of idiocy.....537 posts, not counting my own two 🙂
"Does yesterday's congressional testimony by Cassidy Hutchinson, ... make that charge more plausible?"
Considering the number of points that have already been refuted, no. This farce is not an exercise to find any semblance of truth. This is a case for the prosecution, it is one sided, and it has failed miserably—as expected.
DT mentioned and the board goes full-on MAGA. Libertarians my ass. The fat losers spell on these creeps is unbreakable. They hope Hutchinson was lying but no one who would say that has the nuts to testify - so far - and the SS are on tape already. Do you think they would trot her out there without that corroboration in the bank?
I suppose we are to believe the loser would never do what he is accused of because he is obviously a high principled and selfless leader, loyal to his followers and the cause, who thinks of no one but himself and the country - NOT! and it's obvious to anyone not damaged goods like this crowd.
Libertarians my ass.
I suppose we are to believe the loser would never do what he is accused of because he is obviously a high principled and selfless leader, loyal to his followers and the cause, who thinks of no one but himself and the country...
No, we're supposed to believe that, absent any compelling evidence that the guy has broken any laws, there's no reason to assume he's broken any laws. We're also supposed to believe that, whatever we think of Donald Trump, he's entitled to cross examine people making claims against him, present witnesses in his own defense, and shouldn't be judged by a panel hand-selected by the people trying to prosecute him.
Bill, he'll get his chance in court, but in the meantime he has been invited to appear.
If you recall Hillary sat for about 12 hours taking names and kicking ass before the GOP majority Benghazi Committee (6). Let's see Donnie do that.
By the way the GOP was offered a bi-partisan 9/11 type commission where they would have equal subpoena power and they turned it down. Then, when Pelosi as Speaker canned bomb thrower and subject of the investigation Jim Jordan, McCarthy pulled his other appointees.
Since then, one after the other of his appointees and staff have said he was full of shit about voter fraud, including Ivanka.
Holy fuck. You think Hillary looked good. Lol. What difference does it make. Youre a fucking idiot either way.
"Bill, he'll get his chance in court,..."
Joe Asshole thinks the walls are closing in. Sorta "thinks" that is.
We're also supposed to believe that, whatever we think of Donald Trump, he's entitled to cross examine people making claims against him, present witnesses in his own defense,
In a court of law, sure. Outside a court of law?
So youre for sending tens of millions of dollars to generate bad PR against a potential future candidate? Oh and ignore the criminal referrals they've already issued right?
I am in favor of thoroughly investigating what happened on Jan. 6 and the events leading up to it. The investigative body that we have now is definitely a flawed one. But it is all we have, since Republicans turned down an opportunity for a fairer one when they reject the bipartisan commission proposal.
I am not in favor of sweeping it under the rug and pretending like it didn't happen. Are you?
Nobody's a real libertarian but you, the guy who spends the day posting Act Blue talking points and hating on free speech.
DK what ActBlue is Mother but you know I don't claim to be a Libertarian. I do know that it's principles aren't stupid MAGA cultism, the clear belief system.
Lol. Look at your paycheck. Ask Mr Brock.
No, principles are getting paid to post DNC agitprop and then lying about it, right?
To be fair, Joe has never claimed to be a libertarian. He’s just a supremely less intelligent version of Tony.
And far less likeable.
This isn't about Trump, you dope. I can't stand the man myself. This is about an attempted political purge and a ridiculous overreaction to a bunch of goober morons who thought they could do something (what exactly that would have been is far from clear) about the election results and got out of hand (many in legitimately criminal ways). If you are so blinded by your partisanship and hate for Trump that you can't even care about that, I don't think there's much hope for you. This has been an attempt at a political purge. And a fucking joke (if it wasn't so disturbing).
Sure Zeb, if you ignore Trump inviting and then inciting them, their organization by extremists in touch with jerk-offs in the "war room" like Steve Bannon, and then organizing House members (147 of them) and Senators (6) and trying to get Pence to stop the EC vote, while also pressuring state GOP election officials to break the law and their oath, yeah, Maybe you have something.
But you don't. The man is a sociopath who cares about nothing but his own fat ass and is willing to take down the country and our long tradition of peaceful transitions of power - an essential ingredient of staying a democracy - all to hold power. The dumb schmucks who believe in this guy have a hole in their soul or their brain or both.
"Sure Zeb, if you ignore Trump inviting and then inciting them,..."
Joe Asshole lies. It's all Joe Asshole does.
This is about an attempted political purge
There is no "purge". Please.
and a ridiculous overreaction to a bunch of goober morons
It is about way more than just what the 'goober morons' (rioters) did. I agree that in general there has been a lot of overreaction to the riots. But the riots were only part of the whole story. I find it a LOT more troubling what people like Eastman were doing. THAT is what we all ought to be worrying about, not what the cosplaying goobers were doing.
my ass. The fat losers spell on these creeps is unbreakable. They hope Hutchinson was lying but no one who would say that has the nuts to testify
Except you know the people that were there and the people she claims told her saying they were willing to testify and have previously gone through depositions.
So other than that.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults.
Not a one of his posts is worth refuting; like turd he lies and never does anything other than lie. If something in one of Joe Asshole’s posts is not a lie, it is there by mistake. Joe Asshole lies; it's what he does.
Joe Asshole is a psychopathic liar; he is too stupid to recognize the fact, but everybody knows it. You might just as well attempt to reason with or correct a random handful of mud as engage Joe Asshole.
Do not engage Joe Asshole; simply reply with insults; Joe Asshole deserves nothing other.
Fuck off and die, Asshole.
It makes no difference whether Hutchinson was lying.
Her testimony is irrelevant to the question of an insurrection, Capitol security, or any other legitimate purpose.
She is a propaganda prop.
Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony was brilliant. As a fact witness she gives a good narrative of what was happening just before and on January 6th. She sets out the mood of the day in the WH. Some of her testimony was first-hand and some was not but all go into the record. People can refute her testimony but to get it in the record they have to testify and most seem reluctant to do testify under oath. The dilemma for them now is to testify to refute Ms. Hutchinson means opening themselves for other questions about the day. I would say "check" right about now if I were Liz Cheney.
"Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony was brilliant."
Worthy of an Oscar.
Too bad all the networks discredited it hours later. I bet the Democrats had hoped to ride it for weeks.
No, they didn't, unless by "all the networks" you mean Newsmax and OANN
No. It was abc and NBC who came out within 2 hours saying the SS and driver denied the story.
"Having a difference of opinion" == TOTALLY DEBUNKED
The people involved saying it did not happen is not a difference of opinion.
The person with no primary information merely disagrees with the person who does!!!!!
Lol. What the fuck retard.
Not earning your paycheck today, huh Jeff.
ABC News: "A source close to the Secret Service just told me to expect that the secret service will push back against any allegation of an assault against an agent or President Trump reaching for the steering wheel."
https://twitter.com/KevinTober94/status/1541921846119079936
NBC News Peter Alexander: "both Bobby Engel, the lead agent, and the presidential limousine/SUV driver are prepared to testify under oath that neither man was assaulted and that Mr. Trump never lunged for the steering wheel."
https://twitter.com/PeterAlexander/status/1541910389289635841
CNN's Gabby Orr: "Tony Ornato is denying that he told Cassidy Hutchinson Trump grabbed the steering wheel in presidential vehicle on 1/6 or lunged at a fellow agent, a USSS official tells
@joshscampbell.
CNN confirms that Ornato & Enger are prepared to testify that neither incident occurred.
https://twitter.com/GabbyOrr_/status/1541940680716599298
That Ornato & Enger disagree with Hutchinson, is not PROOF that Hutchinson is a LIAR. It is merely proof that they have a different version of events.
In order to know who, if anyone, is a liar, shouldn't we first hear what they have to say? Hmm?
Or is the standard going to be, "anyone disagreeing with a Team Red critic is automatically correct"?
It's proof. They were her purported sources. Couple that with USSS officials saying her claims didn't happen and the J6 Committee's own video showing that Trump wasn't in the Beast that day, and her testimony is completely debunked.
Keep posting these weasely denials though. I'll be reposting them for you for years to come.
"That Ornato & Enger disagree with Hutchinson, is not PROOF that Hutchinson is a LIAR. It is merely proof that they have a different version of events."
They were the ONES who were there. Their version of events is called the truth.
"Or is the standard going to be, "anyone disagreeing with a Team Red critic is automatically correct"?"
Do you remember when Biden raped young kids?
Hey, I'm not making it up. It's just a DIFFERING version of events.
Lol.
LMAO!
"tell us you're an easily duped MSM leftist without telling us..."
Walls def closing in now bro. This time is it!
Once you understand M4E is parody his posts are way better.
"Secret Service: Jan. 6 committee didn’t reach out before Hutchinson’s explosive Trump testimony"
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/29/jan-6-hutchinson-secret-service-00043164
I believe the story says that what Ms. Hutchinson report was consistent with the testimony the Committee had already heard.
Thanks for the article. It linked to an article which described Engel's testimony to the committee:
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/08/trump-raised-jan-6-capitol-appearance-secret-service-agent-select-panel-00038217
Of course, Engel himself claimed that they rode back to the White House in the "Beast", when it was actually an SUV. I guess by the standards of this comment board, that makes Engel's testimony completely unreliable and it makes Engel a total and complete liar, right?
Engel was there by all accounts.
Inaccurate Barbie 100% was not.
That is a slight difference.
She does not deserve the "... Barbie" compliment. Looks twenty-five going on 42.
So she still isn't a witness. Glad we agreed finally.
You have been extra retarded today.
I never claimed that she was a first-hand witness. Only that a disagreement about what happened does not constitute a DEBUNKING.
If you weren't a dishonest shill you would say it did.
The mammoth sized evidence has taken a virtual dump on your head.
If you weren't a dishonest shill you'd have nothing to do all day.
Lol, I'm so happy I'm fucking up your job.
"I never claimed that she was a first-hand witness. Only that a disagreement about what happened does not constitute a DEBUNKING."
Fucking hell, this is hackish even for you.
People who were directly involved said it did not. Somebody NOT directly involved said it did.
The person not there was fucking debunked.
How the fuck are you this dense, jeff?
Hutchinson's testimony was mainly hearsay, admissible only in a kanga....oh, right.
BREAKING NEWS
Six more women have come forward with allegations that Trump tried to grab their steering wheels
More accurate than Joe or M4E.
+10 got a feel for my auto-mo-bile
Ok that made me laugh out loud.
"There is no question" - begins the libtard author.
Amazing that libtards fail to see that support for Trump is increasing because of the Jan 6th proceedings. Why? Because average non-TDS-afflicted America sees right through the BS.
"warned that American democracy and the republic itself would be destroyed if Joe Biden was allowed to take office"
Seems spot on so far.
Ahead of schedule too.
Uh, oops:
"Secret Service: Jan. 6 committee didn’t reach out before Hutchinson’s explosive Trump testimony"
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/29/jan-6-hutchinson-secret-service-00043164
From your article:
"“[W]e were not asked to reappear before the Committee in response to yesterday’s new information and we plan on formally responding on the record,” he wrote in an email. “We have and will continue to make any member of the Secret Service available.”
"Reappear".
They have their testimony already.
On those rare occasions where Joe Asshole isn't outright lying, he's attempting deflection.
Just downthread a bit:
Public Citizen
June.29.2022 at 6:48 pm
"Hutchinson needs to be concerned about being charged with Perjury.
Anyone at all familiar with the US Presidential Limousine design knows that POTUS, safely ensconced in the compartment if the vehicle provided for presidential use is completely isolated from the driver, and has no access to that portion of the vehicle.
In addition, the Secret Service Agents on duty have refuted the testimony and are prepared to testify Under Oath and will give testimony that corroborates each others remarks while refuting Hutchinsons."
Joe Asshole should fuck off and die.
Not an oops. You never ask a question if you do not want to hear the answer.
"But until those calling Hutchinson a liar do what she did – testify under oath before a congressional committee – their words hold the combined worth of Trump Steaks, Trump Vodka, Trump Airlines and Trump University."
TDS-addled Joe Asshole - slinging more bullshit than a feed-lot.
Eat shit and die, Asshole.
Dig boy. Good boy. Find people dumber than you to believe you.
I found them Jesse, but that's not my goal.
Joe Asshole lies. It's all Joe Asshole does.
Eat shit and die, Joe Asshole.
Yeah. Jeff did join the thread. So youre right.
Hey, Jeff is a lot of things, but he’s not dumber than Joe Friday.
""But until those calling Hutchinson a liar do what she did – testify under oath before a congressional committee – their words hold the combined worth of Trump Steaks, Trump Vodka, Trump Airlines and Trump University.""
Randos can just appear in front of the Committee and testify? Since when?
Remember, if she is lying she can be charged with perjury. The same people who lied about voter fraud are now asking you to believe she is, but don't have the nuts to get sworn in and refute her.
By the way, the video of Gen. Mike Flynn weakly whispering "the Fifth" when asked numerous questions was a true profile in courage - will be legend, along with "Nuts!"
Joe Asshole lies. It's all Joe Asshole does.
Well said. Easy to go on the news shows or tweeter. Harder to go under oath.
He lied twice so of course you'd say "well said".
"Harder to go under oath."
Especially since the kangaroo court does not want to hear it.
"Remember, if she is lying she can be charged with perjury."
Sure, if it weren't a kangaroo court run by the very people who solicited her performance and have the most to gain from it.
Here's a photo of Cheney giving Hutchinson a big hug after "testifying" yesterday. Do you want to explain that for us? Because that's sinister as fuck.
https://twitter.com/greta/status/1542124333912424449
"The same people who lied about voter fraud"
Yeah, five years of "Resist", "Not My President", pussyhat marches and Dem riots over 2016 were something all right.
if she is lying she can be charged with perjury.
Yeah, just like Eric Holder, all those CIA and FBI assholes, Hillary Clinton, etc, etc...
Oh, wait.
-jcr
"By the way, the video of Gen. Mike Flynn weakly whispering "the Fifth" when asked numerous questions was a true profile in courage - will be legend, along with "Nuts!""
Hmm, guy who was railroaded by the FBI when he answered questions decided to never repeat that.
Yup, cowardice. For realz.
It is simple, if Garland has the balls.
Indict him and let a jury decide.
A DC jury composed of Clinton and Biden donors/voters? They would convict Trump on zero evidence at all.
The reason Garland isn't doing it is twofold. First, it would be politically unwise: Biden would face an angry Republican electorate and a politically smarter DeSantis. Second, Garland doesn't want to go down in history as the failed SCOTUS nominee who then took revenge on Republicans with a bogus indictment.
Hutchinson needs to be concerned about being charged with Perjury.
Anyone at all familiar with the US Presidential Limousine design knows that POTUS, safely ensconced in the compartment if the vehicle provided for presidential use is completely isolated from the driver, and has no access to that portion of the vehicle.
In addition, the Secret Service Agents on duty have refuted the testimony and are prepared to testify Under Oath and will give testimony that corroborates each others remarks while refuting Hutchinsons.
But this time he was riding in the Presidential 1987 Nissan Stanza.
A Democrat operative concerned about being held accountable? What country do you live in? Certainly not 2020 America. Sussaman just lied to the FBI and got off scott free while they went and put a 72 year old in leg irons for a misdemeanor for not responding to this Kangaroo court. Are you serious? There is no equal justice any more, stolen elections have consequences and this is a banana republic. If you're a Democrat you can destroy an entire career with a lie and be held up as a hero. The modern left is psychotic.
He wasn’t in the limo. He was in a Predidential SUV.
Yes, but she testified he was in the Beast.
Oh, you cannot disprove her testimony by pointing out all of the glaring issues and iaccuracies.
No she doesn't. She said what she was coached to say. And she added lots of weasel words.
If you actually watch the video of her testimony she exhibits multiple "tells" indicating she is lying.
There is a large amount of information available from multiple internet sources explaining how these indicators may be read, even by those who are not trained psychologists or criminologists.
"tells that she is lying"? Aside from the fact that she's a Democrat operative and she bears a striking resemblance to Amber Heard?
"has obtained police radio transmissions identifying individuals with firearms, including AR-15s, near the Ellipse on the morning of January 6th."
As Reason will note, there is no history of police mistakenly identifying a firearm that wasn't.
You should NEVER trust what the police say about an event.
...except this one time.
If Trump had said “Make sure to use the mags to keep all armed individuals away from me” how would that change anyone’s analysis?
"Did Cassidy Hutchinson's Testimony Clinch the Incitement Case Against Trump?"
No. Betteridge's law of headlines. Next story please.
Considering that the entire hearing is a partisan farce with every witness losing all credibility the more they talk, no. No case has been secured against the once and future President.
Glad to see that I'm not the only one who picked up on the fact that very little of Ms Hutchinson's statements are from what she saw or heard herself. Most of it seems to be what she was told that others thought they heard or saw.
I may not like Trump, but this does not meet any sort of legal standard according to my poor knowledge.
Who can consider this nonsense journalism? This is ridiculous propaganda. The unbelievable claims by Amber Heard 2.0 HAVE ALREADY BEEN DISPUTED BY THE SECRET SERVICE AGENTS IN QUESTION. It was a lie, it was clealy a lie, this is no journalism, this is trash.
Oh, well if the SS disputes it, then they're right, case closed!
I know that you're being sarcastic right now, but I bet a week from now you'll be using your comment as proof that you didn't believe Hutchison after reviewing the evidence.
Is this sarcasm? The actual driver said it didn't happen. It's a lie. Her testimony is trash and anyone putting forth this nonsense after those statements is fundamentally dishonest. In addition - being that he was still the President, he could have simply ordered the driver to take him anywhere he wanted to go. I wonder, what kind of world do you think these liars are going to build for YOU once they get all the power they want? I don't think you don't know they are lying, I think you just think it is for some "greater good". What "greater good" are they working on for you? I want to understand how a mind like yours works.
The actual driver said it didn't happen.
So it seems, yes. So let's determine what his story is so that we can try to find the truth. Sound good?
It's a lie.
Two people having different versions of the same event does not necessarily mean anyone is a LIAR.
Her testimony is trash and anyone putting forth this nonsense after those statements is fundamentally dishonest.
Anyone who extrapolates from "two people disagreed on what happened that day" all the way to "even though I wasn't there, I *know* who is telling the truth and everyone else is a lying liar with trashy lies!", is trying to gaslight people.
In addition - being that he was still the President, he could have simply ordered the driver to take him anywhere he wanted to go.
This statement simply demonstrates that you didn't actually listen to Hutchinson's testimony. No, the president is not king, he does not have the authority to order the driver to take him wherever he wishes.
". No, the president is not king, he does not have the authority to order the driver to take him wherever he wishes."
The President definitely has authority over the destination in his own motorcade. Your arguments seem desperate.
As far as extrapolating that she is lying - well` it is not simply based on this testimony. It is based on the pattern of lying that these very same Democrats have demonstrated for years. Adam Schiff? Are you seriously? All these people put forth the Russiagate and other lies for YEARS. This is a pattern, they are liars, I don't have to give them credit for anything. This is a partisan kangaroo court run by tyrants. Why don't you just get your booster and go back to New Hampshire and slow it down a bit?
Hutchinson is not a Democrat. She worked in Trump's White House after all.
This isn't a logical assertion. She was an intern, her party affiliation is not quickly available. However she is clearly, by her actions, a partisan actor supporting the Democrats. At any rate, her credibility is gone now that most of her statements have been debunked completely. I don't know why you feel the need to continue arguing when you're so clearly wrong. I guess reality and truth are just an insurmountable obstacle for your mind.
However she is clearly, by her actions, a partisan actor supporting the Democrats.
Or, she is a whistleblower who thinks she is being a good patriot and doing the right thing by exposing malfeasance.
At any rate, her credibility is gone now that most of her statements have been debunked completely.
It is amusing that you declare this statement as if it were a statement of fact.
I don't know why you feel the need to continue arguing when you're so clearly wrong.
that's like gaslighting 101 right there
Before working in the WH as Meadow's aide - and with an office a couple of doors down from the Oval Office - Hutchinson was an assistant to GOP House Whip Scalise and then Sen Ted Cruz. She was taken to work at Mara Lago after the loser left DC.
Democrat operative infiltrator? Like the one who leaked the Alito Draft? You're going to have to try harder. This child-like 'conflating correlation with causation whenever it supports your narrative' really discredits the rest of your arguments. Also - she was fired from Mar A' Lago.
Because no lefties worked in that WH. Sure.
Not only that, for the Secret Service to refuse a direct, lawful order from the president would have serious consequences for the agent.
Unless the Secret Service agent's orders were coming from above the President.
They did and both they and Trump have so stated.
The SS has agreed that Trump wanted to go to the capitol but they would not take him and trump said the same thing earlier.
https://thenewamerican.com/hutchinsons-hearsay-testimony-disputed/
Also, you might want to watch 2000 Mules so you can understand that those righteous patriots protesting a stolen election were RIGHT.
Oh, well that settles it. An article used the word "debunked" in the title, therefore, it must be true!
And I was not born yesterday. The movie 2000 Mules relies on the viewer's general ignorance of statistics and technology. The geolocation technology is not precise enough to pinpoint specific cellphones within specific locations. And from a statistical point of view, over a long enough period of time, you'll find enough people wandering around a city near dropboxes or specific locations that would make someone think there was some conspiracy, when in fact it was just a statistically probable outcome from random people going about their business.
In that movie, does D'Souza actually SHOW the same person depositing multiple ballots in multiple dropboxes over multiple days in multiple states? Hmm? No. Nowhere in the movie is that shown. Why do you think that is?
Dude, I work on aircraft computers. Cell phones are deadly accurate, you are now spouting talking points. Are you a paid liar? Is that what I am dealing with? You support these people in the Jan 6th event to be arrested for the SAME TYPE OF GEOLOCATION DATA. Those mules in the film went to over 10 drop boxes. The tech is capable of telling that they got out of their cars and walked to a drop box. Now you're just a clown, I don't care if you are lying or really this insufferably willfully ignorant. You people are destroying my sanity and the world with your ENDLESS LIES. Stop.
Here is a good discussion about geolocation data and cell phones:
https://cybersect.substack.com/p/fact-check-geolocation-accuracy-and
The data used in the movie is just not that accurate. It is only accurate to within about 40 feet. So if a ballot drop box is at the entrance to a building, the geolocation process wouldn't know if a person was standing at the drop box, or was across the street at a different building entirely.
Your argument is misinformation, and it is clear now that it is intentional. GPS is more accurate than 3 meters now. I just used a mapped route, recorded by a civilian GPS in my drone - using another civilian gps [the one in my phone to navigate] and found a small piece of plastic that fell off said drone out in the desert, 2000 meters from my original location. I have built a geofencing system using public GPS and have worked on other systems involving one or both sides using GPS. Your disinformation consists of the talking points of the side which stole the election, and if you had the capacity for it, you should feel deep shame for what you have done. What you don't realize yet is what you participated in will very likely write a -very- dark next chapter in all of our lives. I think you know that too.
"The geolocation technology is not precise enough to pinpoint specific cellphones within specific locations."
...Yet it is used to help convict people for murder. Weird.
And to arrest protesters
MartinHolinde, chemjeff is a paid poster. He's paid to post Democratic Party talking points, and lie or misrepresent anything that reflects negatively on the party.
When we call him a shill we mean it literally.
You're wasting your time trying to engage him in good faith. That's why we all argue against him here rather than trying to convince him.
I have just come to realize it is a sociopathic operative. Likely not even for the Dems, this seems like a Soros Reptile.
Mother, either you can refute what chem says or you can't - you can't. How does it matter where he gets his information if it is accurate?
His information is not accurate, at best it is talking points, each of which have been refuted by the same people who were right about - vaccine efficacy and safety [by both your histories, you were both wrong about that] - the same people who were right about russiagate being paid oppo research - [by both your histories, you were both wrong about that] - by the Hunter laptop story being 'debunked' - [by both your histories, you were both wrong about that]. So exactly how many people do you think you are fooling with your detestable sideshow wannabee Counterintelligence operative? You are a clown who works for clowns and gets it wrong, every.single.time.
"Two people having different versions of the same event does not necessarily mean anyone is a LIAR."
What your post means is that you're a liar, because you know it's not just two people having different versions of the same event.
Ornato, Enger, two other USSS officials and the J6 committee's own video evidence all contradict her testimony.
You know this but you keep lying about it every chance that you get.
Here is a simple example.
One person says, "Trump lunged at the steering wheel!"
Another person says, "No he did not."
Are they disagreeing about the event itself, or are they disagreeing about the words used to describe the event? Is the disagreement over whether Trump took some physical action to wrest control of the steering wheel away from the driver at all? Or, do both parties agree that Trump did take a physical action to try to wrest control of the steering wheel away from the driver, but disagree about whether that action should be properly described as a "lunge"? This is just one example of how two people disagreeing about an event could both be substantively correct and neither one is a liar.
"One person says, "Trump lunged at the steering wheel!"
Another person says, "No he did not.""
One person who was NOT THERE said "Trump did that".
The driver and agent who WERE there (and would have directly dealt with the lunging) said he did not.
This is not a fucking difference of opinion, you fucking moron.
"So it seems, yes. So let's determine what his story is so that we can try to find the truth. Sound good?"
Kangaroo court declined the offer to do so. Weird.
"Two people having different versions of the same event does not necessarily mean anyone is a LIAR."
Trump said he had a bigger inauguration crowd than Obama. You're saying he was NOT lying now?
"Anyone who extrapolates from "two people disagreed on what happened that day" all the way to "even though I wasn't there..."
Irony: She ALSO was not there.
"This statement simply demonstrates that you didn't actually listen to Hutchinson's testimony. No, the president is not king, he does not have the authority to order the driver to take him wherever he wishes."
She also did not know WHAT vehicle he was in. Not exactly improving her credibility.
"Oh, well if the SS disputes it, then they're right, case closed!"
Better to go with the person who was not there and did not know what vehicle Trump was in.
January 6th was a setup, an operation. FBI and other provocateurs herded unsuspecting patriots into a setup. Period. Video of the doors being opened for them. Nancy Pelosi refusing Trump's request a week earlier for extra National Guard. We do this in other countries. They did it to us. Anyone who thinks this was an 'Insurrection' is a simpleton, mouth breather - who doesn't deserve the liberties and rights that we just LOST due to this stolen election. Cowards, traitors, Narcissists and sociopaths inherit what they deserve, I guess.
Seek help Martin
This type of response solidifies what you are, and what your true contribution to "progressivism" is. In reality, there is nothing humanist or "progressive" about your ultimate goals. So it is laughable and deeply sad that you choose 'means to an end' to rationalize your toxic, deceitful existence - and that you have lost sight of what "the ends" really is. You see, throughout history "the ends justifies the means" always results in tyranny and fascism - and only your narcissistic egocentric pill-addled sociopathy cannot see that through the lens of hedonism, hatred, and wrongheaded desperation to be valued by a society which hates every lie you stand for.
Sullum, get your fucking meds adjusted. You've been foaming at the mouth ever since Hillary lost.
-jcr
Leftists, like those commenting here, need to feel consequences for their transgressions built upon constant lies.
2020 was a phase transition, and is never to be forgotten.
They have assaulted you, your family, and stolen your property.
They will not stop unless they are stopped.
Historically, the type of people who support these Kangaroo Courts are some of the first useless eaters to be put in the gulag.
Meanwhile
https://twitter.com/JordanSchachtel/status/1542311324318896130?t=ILNURr40wKLeJOWXMUmnmQ&s=19
Just ran the numbers on Biden Admin's new vax deal w Pfizer.
The old deal gave Pfizer $19.50 a dose. They're now paying > $30. Pfizer raised price by over 50%.
The deal will bring Pfizer $9.5 billion. Their expected revenue is > $100B this year, shattering records.
Criminal.
None of the shots will be delivered under an FDA approved label.
And there is no real evidence the juice works for current strains
Additionally, there are already 100s of millions of unused doses sitting around, which makes this whole op resemble a sketchy laundering operation.
They need all that money to dig a bigger hole to hide in like the cockroaches they are. They think they are going to wait out the world they burnt to the ground in their 40 miles of tunnels under Denver or in their fortresses in New Zealand. I have a question, who is going to fly them there? When they get there, who is going to prevent those of us remaining from piling up tire fires over all their air inlets? Who is going to fight for them after they have done Moloch's work?
https://twitter.com/BonBee81/status/1542331570425569281?t=w63EQyxWJgphLW4uizl9XQ&s=19
"78% of Americans believe nation on wrong track, up 27 points under Biden"
Ok, LOL break
https://twitter.com/NautPoso/status/1542320284216299526?t=BqntW5d0Atuli6kgvxuwrg&s=19
It really happened
[Video]
Isn't that the kind of dynamism and energy we are looking for in a president?
I'd take it
Hutchinson's Testimony was hearsay and lies. She did not see what she testified about in the limo and it would have been physically impossible for Trump to grab the wheel in a stretch limo. Also the two SS agents involved disputed the incident. Trump was not responsible for quelling the riot. No president is ever to control the Capitol and should not be, that is a SEPARATE branch of government just like the Supreme Court, which has been illegally harassed and threatened and nothing done and Reason yet to mention. Pelosi was in charge of security that day, Pelosi admitted she had been given intelligence there would be a riot that day and not only did nothing but reduce the security people on duty that day. Reason can keep writing their Trump hating fantasies, but it does not change the facts.
How did the planet become inhabited by so many sociopaths?? Most of the comments are bizarre beyond belief. Get help.
MAGA creeps pretending to be libertarians.
No all woke liberals. And not just sociopaths, most are psychopath.
Actually name calling does little good. You should stop it. Your opinion proves nothing.
I doubt most of the people are sociopaths. The problems actually stem from the Internet itself and the anonymity it provides. Most of the people here would temper their words in a live discussion with actual people, but do not because they can hide behind the veil of anonymity the Internet provides. It certainly emboldens people to silly statements.
Still we should all support the truth, and we are not getting it in this hearing, it is a one sided political show. Where are Pelsoi's records? Why is there no rebuttal or defense witnesses? Why is Ray Epps, arrested and let go not testifying? There was also a PA woman arrested who directed the entrance to the capital with a bull horn. She was given home arrest unlike those rotting in jail. Why is she not a witness for Jan. 6th? When asked if their were FBI agent or provocateurs in the crowd, why did the FBI spokesperson refuse to answer.
Whatever the truth this commission is not interested in finding it and the whole thing stinks to high heaven. It is also in line with all the other lies about Trump. You may hate him but it has been proven he did not collude with the Russians, he did not get rich from being president, he did not say anything like bountygate accusation, he did not say find the fraud, he did not orchestrate the DC riot as a photo op. All proven false, all retracted by the first reporting news agencies, the NY Times, the Washington Post and the Daily Beast. This certainly looks like the capitol riot was a setup like the governor kidnapping in Michigan. I did not vote for Trump, but for Jo Jorgenson. I had problems with his domestic spying policies and spending, both of which Biden has been worse on. Yet I want the truth, and I do not want a corrupt federal government.
I've never been a fan of Donald Trump, thought that he was a particularly poor candidate (although have the same opinion of Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton) for president.
I however have some sympathetic feelings towards Donald Trump due to all of the BS that has been lobbed at him during the elections, while in office and now that he is no longer in office.
This does not excuse his reactions to all of this BS, but does reflect on the morality and ethics of the anti-trump movement.
I see the Cassidy Hutchinsons as yet another example of the ruling elite attempting to destroy a person because they are deemed a threat to their rule and power.
This does not make me want to support Trump, but makes me despise the ruling elites and their evil tactics. Trump may not be the a great person, but he's much more honest than the anti-Trump ruling elites.
Hunt also responded on Twitter to claims that she lied, saying, “Ms. Hutchinson testified, under oath, and recounted what she was told. Those with knowledge of the episode also should testify under oath.”
However, almost all of her testimony has been refuted or entirely debunked by the individuals who were there during the events. Nearly all of her “shocking testimony” was given as hearsay, as she was not present for the actual events to which she testified on Tuesday.
The first false claim stated an “irate” Trump grabbed the wheel of the SUV he was riding in and then lunged at Secret Service agent Robert “Bobby” Engel when Engel told him that he would not go to the Capitol.
“I’m the f—ing president! Take me up to the Capitol now!” Trump allegedly shouted.
Hutchinson said she was told about the incident by Anthony Ornato, the White House’s deputy chief of operations for that day.
Secret Service Chief of Communications Anthony Guglielmi said in a statement, “The Secret Service has been cooperating fully with the select committee since its inception in spring of 2021 and we will continue to do so by responding formally and on the record to the committee regarding new allegations that surfaced in yesterday’s testimony.”
Guglielmi told Politico that the committee did not ask the Secret Service personnel to reappear or answer questions in the ten days before interviewing Hutchinson at the Tuesday hearing.
CNN’s Shimon Prokupecz tweeted Tuesday that a “Secret Service official familiar with the matter told CNN that Tony Ornato denies telling Cassidy Hutchinson that the former president grabbed the steering wheel or an agent on his detail.”
NBC News reporter Peter Alexander tweeted that “a source close to the Secret Service tells me both Bobby Engel, the lead agent, and the presidential limousine/SUV driver are prepared to testify under oath that neither man was assaulted and that Mr. Trump never lunged for the steering wheel.”
Hutchinson vividly recounted helping to clean ketchup off the wall of a West Wing dining room after Trump allegedly slammed his lunch plate against it in a fit of rage over Attorney General Bill Barr’s December 1, 2020 interview with the Associated Press that disputed the president’s election fraud allegations.
Trump denied the account, saying, “Her story of me throwing food is also false…and why would SHE have to clean it up, I hardly knew who she was?” Trump said.
Hutchinson testified that as pro-Trump rioters pillaged the Capitol and sent officials fleeing to safety, she wrote down possible remarks during which Trump would urge the rioters to go home.
She said, “that’s my handwriting,” as the note was presented as evidence.
“Anyone who entered the Capitol illegally without proper authority should leave immediately,” the note said.
A spokesperson for Eric Herschmann, a former White House attorney, told ABC News on Tuesday that Herschmann wrote the note on January 6.
Trump was allegedly infuriated when metal detectors reduced the size of his event’s crowd at the Ellipse before the riot. Hutchinson claimed Turmp demanded metal detectors be removed because protesters allegedly observed carrying AR-15-style semiautomatic rifles wouldn’t hurt him.
“I was in the vicinity of a conversation where I overheard the president say something to the effect of, ‘I don’t f—ing care that they have weapons. They’re not here to hurt me. Take the f—ing mags away,'” Hutchinson said.
The is no proof of such happening provided by anyone involved in the events of January 6.
“Never complained about the crowd, it was massive. I didn’t want or request that we make room for people with guns to watch my speech. Who would ever want that? Not me!” Trump wrote in a retort on Truth Social.
“Besides, there were no guns found or brought into the Capitol Building … So where were all of these guns? But sadly, a gun was used on Ashli Babbitt, with no price to pay against the person who used it!”
Hutchinson’s testimony depicted Meadows as oddly detached from the events of Jan. 6, often absorbed in his phone as chaos swirled around him.
“I remember thinking in that moment, ‘Mark needs to snap out of this and I don’t know how to snap him out of this, but he needs to care,'” Hutchinson testified.
Ben Williamson, a former top aide to Meadows, responded to the claim in a text message to NBC News: “I’ve worked for Mark Meadows for 7 years — any suggestion he didn’t care is ludicrous. And if the committee actually wanted answers as to that question, they could’ve played my interview where I outlined to them how Meadows immediately acted when I told him of initial violence at the Capitol that day. They seem more interested in hearsay, speculation, and conjecture as a means of smearing people, and it’s obvious why.”
While most of her testimony has been proven false or refuted directly by those involved in the events, the sham committee’s star witness continues to defend her lies.
I have to thank Trump for something I never thought I'd be thanking him for in 2015: without his presidency, I might not have realized what a scumbag Sullum is.
"For months, Trump ceaselessly promoted the "Stop the Steal" narrative..."
For YEARS, democrats and complicit media promoted the Russian collusion hoax...
Why do you think so many people were so close to the edge? They'd been bombarded by BS for so long they were sick and tired of it. This was just another straw. Trump's speech may have heightened people's fervor, but don't for a minute claim that it all happened solely because of it.
Oh, please. The only people who cared about "the Russian collusion hoax" were Trump fanatics. Normal people just ignored it and went on with their lives.
Jesus Christ, what a miserable lying piece of shit you are.
The US Congress cared about it both Democrats and Republicans cared about that. False impeachments and trials on known to be false information are a threat to our democracy, something most people care about greatly . Failed bloodless coups are threat to our democracy. Your comment disparaging Trump supporters is both illogical, partisan and plain stupid. Try the HuffPo, they will love you there.
it's truly shocking to me that someone could genuinely believe these things.
I'll never forget when Greenwald was asked why journalists might go along with certain things or be so motivated by group-think, and he brought up cocktail parties. I nearly fell out of my chair.
A self-proclaimed "libertarian" too.
Meme magic.