There Is a Reason Why Roe v. Wade's Defenders Focus on Its Results Rather Than Its Logic
The abortion precedent has faced withering criticism, including damning appraisals by pro-choice legal scholars, for half a century.

Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, a pro-choice Democrat, says she was "devastated" by the draft majority opinion in which Justice Samuel Alito explains why he believes the Supreme Court cannot let Roe v. Wade stand. "It was shocking to see, laid out in cold legalese, the blatant ideological reasoning gutting the constitutional right to abortion," Whitmer writes in The New York Times.
The implication is that Alito, because he opposes abortion, was determined to overturn the 1973 decision establishing that right, regardless of the legal contortions it required. But as Alito emphasizes, Roe has faced withering criticism, including damning appraisals by pro-choice legal scholars, for half a century. Roe's supporters tend to ignore that fact, instead emphasizing the practical impact of freeing states to set their own abortion policies. While Whitmer accuses Alito of motivated reasoning, that charge better fits Roe author Harry Blackmun and the decision's contemporary defenders.
The source of the right identified in Roe was rather mysterious. Although the Constitution does not mention abortion, Blackmun said it was covered by the "right to privacy," which likewise is not mentioned in the Constitution but in his view could be inferred from other provisions.
The seven justices in the majority did not seem very concerned about precisely which provisions those were. But they were sure "this right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy." The message, Alito says, "seemed to be that the abortion right could be found somewhere in the Constitution and that specifying its exact location was not of paramount importance."
Unfazed by that uncertainty, the justices went further, laying out a detailed list of purportedly constitutional restrictions on state abortion regulations. "For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester," Blackmun said, "the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician." After that, "the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health." Finally, "for the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."
Those rules, which were somehow inferred from a "right to privacy" of unclear provenance and breadth, effectively invalidated every abortion law in the country. The result, Roe's critics say, was decades of acrimony provoked by the lawless nationalization of abortion policy. Even supporters of abortion rights have argued that much of that anger could have been avoided if the Court had treaded more carefully.
Prior to joining the Court, Ruth Bader Ginsburg criticized Roe's reasoning and its scope. Ginsburg, who argued that abortion bans amounted to unconstitutional sex discrimination, thought the 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection would have provided a firmer foundation for the right announced in Roe. She also faulted the Court for deciding more than was required to resolve the case, which involved a Texas law that banned abortion except when it was deemed necessary to save the mother's life.
"Doctrinal limbs too swiftly shaped, experience teaches, may prove unstable," Ginsburg, then an appeals court judge, said in a 1992 lecture. "Suppose the Court had stopped [after] rightly declaring unconstitutional the most extreme brand of law in the nation, and had not gone on, as the Court did in Roe, to fashion a regime blanketing the subject, a set of rules that displaced virtually every state law then in force. Would there have been the 20-year controversy we have witnessed, reflected most recently in the Supreme Court's splintered decision in Planned Parenthood v. Casey? A less encompassing Roe, one that merely struck down the extreme Texas law and went no further on that day…might have served to reduce rather than to fuel controversy." Instead, she said, the Court had "prolonged divisiveness," "deferred stable settlement of the issue," and "halted a political process that was moving in a reform direction."
Ginsburg's criticism, which Alito mentions in his draft opinion, was mild compared to the comments of other observers who, like her, opposed tight restrictions on abortion. The Washington Examiner's Timothy P. Carney has collected some striking examples.
"What is frightening about Roe is that this super-protected right is not inferable from the language of the Constitution, the framers' thinking respecting the specific problem in issue, any general value derivable from the provisions they included, or the nation's governmental structure," Yale law professor John Hart Ely wrote in a 1973 Yale Law Journal article. "At times the inferences the Court has drawn from the values the Constitution marks for special protection have been controversial, even shaky, but never before has its sense of an obligation to draw one been so obviously lacking." In short, Ely said, Roe "is not constitutional law and gives almost no sense of an obligation to try to be."
Harvard law professor Lawrence Tribe offered a similar assessment around the same time. "One of the most curious things about Roe is that, behind its own verbal smokescreen, the substantive judgment on which it rests is nowhere to be found," Tribe wrote in the Harvard Law Review.
"As a matter of constitutional interpretation and judicial method, Roe borders on the indefensible," former Blackmun clerk Edward Lazarus wrote in 2002. "I say this as someone utterly committed to the right to choose, as someone who believes such a right has grounding elsewhere in the Constitution instead of where Roe placed it, and as someone who loved Roe's author like a grandfather." Lazarus argued that "a constitutional right to privacy broad enough to include abortion has no meaningful foundation in constitutional text, history, or precedent—at least, it does not if those sources are fairly described and reasonably faithfully followed."
Carney quotes similar comments from University of Pennsylvania law professor Kermit Roosevelt, Harvard law professors Alan Dershowitz and Cass Sunstein, and journalists such as William Saletan, Benjamin Wittes, Richard Cohen, Jeffrey Rosen, and Michael Kinsley. "Although I am pro-choice," Kinsley wrote in 2004, "I was taught in law school, and still believe, that Roe v. Wade is a muddle of bad reasoning and an authentic example of judicial overreaching."
All of these commentators managed to separate their policy preferences from their assessments of Roe's legal merits. And all of them were decidedly unimpressed by the latter.
Casey, the "splintered decision" to which Ginsburg referred in her 1992 lecture, did not improve matters much. The controlling opinion by Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, Anthony Kennedy, and David Souter ditched Roe's "rigid trimester framework" but retained its "central holding," which bars states from banning pre-viability abortions. Their rationale focused on the consequences of upsetting a longstanding precedent.
"For two decades of economic and social developments, people have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail," O'Connor et al. said. "The ability of women to participate equally in the economic and social life of the Nation has been facilitated by their ability to control their reproductive lives….A decision to overrule Roe's essential holding under the existing circumstances would address error, if error there was, at the cost of both profound and unnecessary damage to the Court's legitimacy, and to the Nation's commitment to the rule of law. It is therefore imperative to adhere to the essence of Roe's original decision."
That opinion not only declined to endorse Roe's reasoning; it conceded that the decision may have been erroneous. "Very little of Roe's reasoning was defended or preserved," Alito writes. "The Court abandoned any reliance on a privacy right and instead grounded the abortion right entirely on the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause. The Court did not reaffirm Roe's erroneous account of abortion history. In fact, none of the Justices in the majority said anything about the history of the abortion right. And as for precedent, the Court relied on essentially the same body of cases that Roe had cited. Thus, with respect to the standard grounds for constitutional decisionmaking—text, history, and precedent—Casey did not attempt to bolster Roe's reasoning."
Alito adds that Casey "made no real effort to remedy one of the greatest weaknesses in Roe's analysis—its much-criticized discussion of viability." Here is how Roe justified that controversial dividing line: "With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in potential life, the 'compelling' point is at viability. This is so because the fetus then presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the womb." As Ely observed, "the Court's defense seems to mistake a definition for a syllogism." Casey likewise simply declared that viability is the point where "the independent existence of a second life can in reason and fairness be the object of state protection that now overrides the rights of the woman."
Alito's analysis of the claim that the Due Process Clause protects a right to abortion starts with the premise that unenumerated rights protected by the 14th Amendment must be "deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition" and "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty." Given the long history of criminalizing abortion in the United States, he argues, it is clear that the right to abortion does not fall into that category. He also considers and rejects the equal protection approach that Ginsburg favored, although he does not directly address the argument that the 14th Amendment protects a right to "bodily integrity" broad enough to cover abortion.
Alito argues that Casey not only failed to "bolster Roe's reasoning" but also botched the question of whether overturning the decision was consistent with principles of stare decisis. That analysis, he says, placed "great weight on an intangible form of reliance with little if any basis in prior case law" while giving short shrift to Roe's constitutional infirmities.
Some critics of Roe disagree on that point. New York Times columnist Bret Stephens, for example, concedes that "Roe v. Wade was an ill-judged decision" that "arrogated to the least democratic branch of government the power to settle a question that would have been better decided by Congress or state legislatures." He adds that Roe "set off a culture war that polarized the country, radicalized its edges and made compromise more difficult"; "helped turn confirmation hearings for the Supreme Court into the unholy death matches they are now"; and "diminished the standing of the court by turning it into an ever-more political branch of government."
But Stephens argues that overturning Roe half a century later would be "a radical, not conservative, choice" because of the longstanding expectations it would upset, and he warns that such a reversal (like Roe itself) would damage the Court's reputation and undermine respect for the law. This is essentially the argument that swayed O'Connor et al. in Casey. But it starts by recognizing Roe's manifest flaws—something the decision's result-oriented defenders rarely do.
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The left is unable to use logic these days, that's why they just shout names at you instead.
Logic is racist. The Smithsonian told us so a couple of years ago. Trust the Science!
Harry Blackmun, who formerly served as counsel to the prestigious Mayo Clinic, wrote the Court’s decision in Roe v. Wade.
Blackmun actually wrote (pp. 156-157 of the Roe opinion) was: "The [state of Texas] argue[s] that the fetus is a 'person' within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well-known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, [Jane Roe's] case, of course, collapses, for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment."
In 1973 the court decided in Roe vs Wade that the unborn were actually the woman’s body. In 1989 DNA science refuted that.
If not the woman’s body, it is someone else’s. Another person, AKA personhood.
Roe collapses.
"DNA science" did no such thing. Nor could it. Science is fundamentally unable to determine moral questions.
It is a scientific fact that from conception a baby has different DNA from the mother. Refuting the claim that the baby being killed in abortion is only the mothers body.
What "baby"????
When do you think a “baby” is created?
When it is born and *really* exists duh.....
unborn babies are imaginative like UN-made houses.
When is the house *really* there??? When it's COMPLETED.
So if a foundation is poured, the walls are framed, and joists are attached, there’s no house there until the fixtures are completed?
I’m someone who will admit when I missed something, and now I realize I missed you’re a parody. In retrospect it makes sense.
The correct question would be does a 'Fetus' have a human life?
And that question is easily answered by setting it free...
Which is EXACTLY the reasoning behind Roe v Wade and 'viable'.
And Fetal Ejection also cancels the two party conundrum of life interest and body ownership of the State.
Instead of arguing endlessly about mythical creatures having rights that supersede a *WELL-ESTABLISHED* real persons right to their body. By Fetal Ejection it will be KNOWN if that mythical creature is/is-not really a "baby".
Right, TJ. I know so many 1 day old infants that can live on their own.
Oh so now [WE] must Enslave all Mothers for the 'life' of children too??
But, but, but........... "It's for the Children".
All YOUR Individuality is now property of the State..
This is the main reason I bailed on the the Republican Pro-Life POWER grab. Not only is it senseless (mythical creatures); it's the very kind of mentality that takes off into Nazi-Land.
If Republicans would embrace the Roe v Wade ruling instead of fighting it; who knows how far it could go to mastering a "right to privacy". It could be the very precedence that would be granted when Leftards demand jabbing people with medicine or playing Obamacare (WE own YOU) games.
But nope.... Here it is.. Just another Republicans fight setting up the Democrats to take even MORE body autonomy away... It's the same as Section 230 and media; Anyone could see the left just jumping up and down while Republicans tried to throw Gov-Guns into media because (and sure enough 100%) Democrats instantly started Gov-Gun misinformation legalities...
It would sure be nice if the LIMITED Government party could have a little more faith in actual LIMITED Government.
Is he parody? It’s so hard to tell these days.
He gave it away with this one:
https://reason.com/2022/05/10/there-is-a-reason-why-roe-v-wades-defenders-focus-on-its-results-rather-than-its-reasoning/?comments=true#comment-9487760
I "gave it away with" all of them.....
Pro-Life is POWER mad with no valid justification.
They won't allow the fetus to be freed to PROVE it's human.
They want to EMPOWER the State over the People's PERSONAL life.
They want to EMPOWER the State over the People's Healthcare choices.
They want to EMPOWER the State over the People's own bloody body ownership.
Don't blame me that you [WE] Power-Mad gang can't see what your advocating. EXACTLY the same sh*t the Leftard (Democrats) do.. I figured all those "Oh, the left is such hypocrites about this" would've given it away. Or maybe; but, but "The Science". Or maybe; but, but "The children".... Etc, etc, etc.....
But nope; the ignorance-engine has set in. Think about... Pro-Life IS EXACTLY the same repeated 'arguments' the Power-Mad Left has been playing for years.
Stopping me from killing someone, who gets in my way, is so much UNLIMITED government.
Don't kill unicorns!!! Did you just kill my unicorn!
My unicorn demands your enslavement so stop being so ?greedy? /s
You want to prove there's anything there but a unicorn. SET IT FREE AND PROVE IT.
Good point. That's why if you were building house, and the framing was done, and the roof was installed, and the electrical was in place, but the drywall hadn't yet been installed, I could douse the entire thing in gasoline and set it on fire, and that would not be destruction of property or arson, because the house doesn't exist.
.....And here's the real kick in the shorts...
If it's on your PROPERTY; You absolutely could do that.
Even if you're but just a contractor.. The deed of ownership isn't past until the project is complete.
The contractor doesn’t own the property just because the project isn’t finished, unless the contractor is financing or doing a build-to-sell.
And who's "financing" the pregnancy?
The [WE] mob or a Pregnant Women?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Pro-Life's biggest obstical is 'God' (nature itself) which gave Women complete autonomy of human reproduction...
Apparently this makes some people very, very angry. So angry in fact they want to pull out Gov-Guns and even the score.
When we demonstrate with logic and science that the unborn are “babies” aka “persons”, you flip to “it’s the mothers right to kill the person inside her”, Both have been refuted.
I hope that witnesses of our dialogue recognize that one of us is advocating the reality of science, the nature of truth, while the other is appealing to emotional fears based on lies, the nature of propaganda.
When getting what you want supersedes honestly sharing reality, that is the source of all conflict on earth.
Graphically illustrated by the debate over the greatest genocide in earths history, abortion.
Lets see - Where have I heard you Pro-Life nut-jobs consider Fetal Ejection?? Oh I haven't; because you all know under those covers of B.S. propaganda (It's a "baby") your lies don't hold water.
You want to prove it's a human?? Set it free and PROVE it.
Nut jobs? Hahaha
You deny that an unborn baby is human.
You conflate death from natural causes with murder.
I only wish all abortion advocates were as transparent as you are.
So are you willing to admit that if, despite the best efforts of the abortionist, the fetus is alive upon expulsion from the womb, then it's become a baby entitled to all the protection of the law? Or do you agree with Governor Northam that the now-alive-and-outside-the-womb baby only has a right to life if the mother (who just tried to get it killed in utero) wants it to?
"So are you willing to admit that if, despite the best efforts of the abortionist, the fetus is alive upon expulsion from the womb, then it's become a baby entitled to all the protection of the law?"
Absolutely. Which is what 1 USC 8 says about personhood. Only the most radical pro-choice advocates would aregue against that. And it's also what got Kermit Gosnell sent to prison for murder.
^Yep; Exactly.
Of course the fetus' DNA is different from the mother's. So what? That doesn't answer the question you think it does. DNA differences alone do not define life.
The definition of "life" is an inherently moral question. Science can take that definition as a premise (where applicable) but cannot actually generate that definition.
The fetus already meets all the scientific criteria of life, DNA simply proves that it is a different living individual, aka person, from the mother.
Collapsing Roe.
"All organ transplants are another person", Rob Misek.
Heck; Probably eating Red Meat might thwart any body right you thought you had.
Body parts don’t meet the scientific criteria of a living person.
If only your mouth could make it to your ears. 🙂
Then logically, full financial responsibility should be assumed by the father who by law should be tracked down by the state and have his wages attached for said purpose. If a state want to end a woman's choice in the matter, it should logically then assume it's financial responsibility for it's choice to force her to give birth.
You must not know any pro-lifers. They're completely on board with enforcing paternal responsibility.
Seamus, then why isn't it the new state laws restricting abortions that they will track down fathers and nail them on payments and why aren't the states taking financial responsibility for their choice causing a birth?
Again...they are. They DO make the fathers pay. Occasionally, even if the child is not his.
or if he was raped.
Throw another log on the Gov-Gun fire.. /s
The state didn't make the choice for the life to exist, the man and woman did.
The financial one is another of the responsibilities that went along with the act that created the new life.
The "choice" was made long before the baby is decided to be inconvenient. The choice to kill it comes after the real time to have made a "choice".
What "baby"???
100%. Locking them up is retarded, but they need to take care of their progeny.
Now there are issues adjacent, that we don't like, but that is more a problem with the matriarchy ran wild.
Financial independence is irrelevant to the inalienable right to life.
Are you really suggesting otherwise?
Yes, stupid, stupid Rob...
A right to life is dependent on SLAVERY...
*isn't*
Slavers also believed the subject of their scorn wasn't a person.
Thank goodness Pro-Life wouldn't ever do that to a Pregnant Woman... /s
Even if it's another person what right does it have to force the woman to use her body to support it?
Stop there.
Another person HAS the inalienable right to life.
The woman through her choice of actions put another person inside her. That person has rights.
There is no right to be free from accountability for your actions.
Are all person required to live in someone else's womb???
Is that an inalienable human right too???
Free the Fetus!!!
I'm not even sure why we're still arguing about this. You won't even PROVE (which you have the option to) it's even a human life.
Yeah, go with that.
Then I guess all the states, that say acts resulting in the death of the nascent human, by another than the mother, is murder, or that actions the mother can take, that aren't actual abortions, like taking drugs or excessive drinking, that could harm the baby, are wrong in their assessment.
I mean, if it's not a life, how can they punish the harming of it?
Yep; you pegged it...
Sell your Individual Souls to the [WE] foundation; because YOU don't own YOU, The [WE] foundations owns you....
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the wild dismissal of any notion of Liberty here. If one can't own one's own body Individual Liberty is as much of a mythical creature as the mythical creature used to topple it.
So a fetus threatened with abortion is punishment? Not a blessing? Or is it a blessing to society, even if not to the parents? If so then doesn't society immediately take responsibility for the child? I haven't heard much support for that socialist idea.
Pregnancy is simply one result of sex. You put your money down, roll the dice and live with the result.
The person created has rights.
If you don’t like that, the problem is yours.
What "person"???
These days? This has been their MO for many years now.
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so it's to be wall to wall abortion 24/7 eh?
I, for one, was really excited to see yet another article about abortion. There are unlimited opportunities to waste time and effort on the same subject over and over.
Forget about the new ministry of truth and the environmental justice office, nothing to see here.
Hey, it's all good as long as we aren't fighting the culture war.
I'm really glad they haven't done anything on the leak and the potential ramifications for the judicial branch. It would be a waste of time to ponder the type of chilling effect that might have on open deliberation and debate among justices, and how that might affect SCOTUS cases going forward.
It would be stupid to have any kind of reflection on how it affects constitutional governance.
At least they’re not focusing on the illegal protesting outside the justice’s houses.
That practice, regardless of issue or the "side" that the protesters are on, is a horrible practice. Public figures don't surrender all of their private lives just because they choose to become a judge or an election official or a school board member or a senator.
If for no other reason, common decency would demand that people (and their families) be left alone at home.
The (p)Resident SUPPORTS it.
Glad norms are being restored.
Although the Constitution does not mention abortion, Blackmun said it was covered by the "right to privacy," which likewise is not mentioned in the Constitution but in his view could be inferred from other provisions.
Next you'll be saying that I don't have the right to roller skate naked down I-95 because it's not mentioned in the Constitution, but could be inferred by the Interstate Commerce Clause.
I-95 isn't very "private".
This. Anything not mentioned in the constitution is an unenumerated right that the state needs a compelling interest to limit or stop, plus a law that applies equally to all people. It seems legitimate to say that a state can legislate where between 1 day and birth - 1 day to ban abortion, but to ban it completely or allow it unrestrained wouldn't be reasonable.
Let's see how snooty and aristocratic we all are:
roe v. caviar. Discuss.
Isn't salt the only difference?
One is bait for fish, the other is bait for pussy.
Caviar is awesome. Way too expensive though.
Also, sushi eating hipsters are definitely more pussy than drunken Russians.
I believe ENB already told us Alito's legal reasoning in his opinion was a hot mess.
And, of course ENB is a renowned Constitutional and legal scholar.
Everyone knows RvW is junk. The surprising part is that it stood for so long, but that is largely a tribute to the power of actual feminism and liberalization of our society from the 70s onward. But it still doesn't make the case any better than junk.
There is hardly a subject on which more reasonable people are willing to compromise -- I mean, 80+% of the country. But we are held hostage by the extremists on both ends, most of whom have zero personal stake in the matter. [seriously. Men, women with access to buckets of birth control, the ability to travel anywhere in the world -- these are the ones screaming the the loudest on other peoples' behalf.]
My wife is very conservative, anti-abortion. Where would she draw the line? First trimester, using medicine, preferably. But what about down's syndrome kids? Well, turns out you can do amniocentesis at 8-10 weeks now. You can test for down's syndrome and most defects using blood test and hi-res echo at 6 weeks, now [specifically cannot test for neural tube defects [ spine on the outside] but those are usually fatal to the fetus]. It's not a subject where compromise can not be made.
If you want a national abortion law [or amendment], clear out the 5-abortion ladies, the abortion 2 days before birth for mother's mental health, the can't abort in case of prison rape people, the life begins at ejaculation, and let the adults talk about it. And make it happen.
90% of the country is tired of hearing about the whole misbegotten mess. Already.
mis·be·got·ten /ˌmisbəˈɡätn/
adjective: badly conceived, designed, or planned.
So there.
Not only was it a shit decision, it was a shit decision based on a case from a petitioner who lied about the facts of her case.
Good ideas, especially about how sick most people are of hearing about it. But how do we come to a conclusion? Talk doesn't work since there is no way to exclude the extremists.
My suggestion is to have a referendum by state with each element as a separate line item.
I admire your optomism and your creativity in presenting a reasonable, moderate, and practical solution.
Unfortunately, this is one of the most lucrative and attention-getting issues for politicians. Being an anti-abortion or pro-choice absolutist raises your national profile and makes the campaign donations roll in like a tsunami after an earthquake.
I would love it if your plan would happen, but I don't trust that politicians want to come up with a reasonable solution.
Agreed. Unfortunately there are far too many folks that think they have the moral high ground and are willing to force their morals, ethics, beliefs on others via laws and regulations.
RvW expires as soon as an artificial womb makes the age of viability zero.
...any decision emanating from a penumbra has to be worthless.
You've never seen my penumbra.
Show us your penumbra!!!
(I, in turn, will... Show y'all my tits!!!)
No penumbra for you!
I saw it on the interwebs. It's magnificent!
Unicorn's is magnificent. Sqrlsy's is strange and meandering with a weird little spot at the end. I'd get it checked of it was me.
"For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester," Blackmun said, "the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician."
weeks in a month: 4.34524
3 months x 4.345
Weeks Blackmun believed was allowed for a woman's right to choose termination of a pregnancy: 13.035
"For two decades of economic and social developments, people have organized intimate relationships and made choices that define their views of themselves and their places in society, in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail," O'Connor et al. said.
"Honey, I missed my period!"
"Let's wait two more months and take care of it then!"
"RIGHTS!"
So 15-16 weeks isn’t so absurd after all.
I think anything between 15 - 20 weeks is a good maximum if you're going to allow it.
Though, in my opinion, the best resolution for reducing abortions would be to lower or preferably remove the barriers that government has put in place to the relatively safe, much more affordable, and far less intrusive contraception options that are available today. Then you just have to trust individuals to make choices that are in their best interest. I think most of them will.
Most of them will. But since the creation of the left wing death cult of abortion was created, there is an increasing minority that won’t. Sorry for the length of this link, but I couldn’t find a link of just the clip in question, so skip to 2:50. This woman is on a major cable news network.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3r30jLSl3Fw
Well, she's unhinged and probably shouldn't be giving opinions on TV. I hope she finds out that it's Kavanaugh. I don't think it is, but it would be hilarious.
If it’s a clerk for a conservative justice (I don’t think so either, but it’s possible) this would make a great video.
Curious where does the constitution have anything to say for or against abortion in the first place. I don't think abortion or any medical issues are covered by the constitution and therefor not the responsibility of teh government at all. If you don't want to abort don't if you do want okay as long as my tax dollars aren't paying, that said cheaper to abort then to raise kids on welfare
It's right before the forced vaccination ammendment
Federalism allows the states to do things the federal government can't.
The U.S. Constitution allows PEOPLE to do things the State can't interfere with...
4th Amendment...
The right of the people to be secure in their persons ... shall not be violated.
No one is saying they want to do an unreasonable search, which is what the Fourth Amendment says the people shall be secure from.
I guess, under your bizarre construction, a warrant could make it such that a woman would have to complete that which she started, when she got herself pregnant.
And the Pregnant Woman seizing her "baby"???
Dear Parents; It's mandatory all babies be locked in air tight cubicles no bigger themselves for their own safety..... /s
It doesn't matter how many times you want to jump through hoops; at the end of the day unless you can make 1-PERSON two your just arguing mythical creatures.
Congress voting on legislation will serve to smoke out those congresscritters who have always had it both ways on abortion.
Sen. Bob Casey (D-PA) has just announced he will vote for pro-abortion legislation; previously the "staunch Catholic" has always positioned himself as "pro-life" to his constituents.
If I remember correctly the Catholic Church launched the Pro-Life campaign..?
But Stephens argues that overturning Roe half a century later would be "a radical, not conservative, choice" because of the longstanding expectations it would upset, and he warns that such a reversal (like Roe itself) would damage the Court's reputation and undermine respect for the law.
See: Slavery.
By the way, I like this reasoning.
The decision wasn't bad.
Ok, sure, the decision was bad, but it wasn't as bad as you say.
Ok, the decision was as bad as you say, but you just need to live with it.
Yeah because "freeing states to set MORE policies" is always a step in the right direction....
Really kicking myself for not realizing you’re a parody before now. Well done.
Well, you know how we ended slavery. Do you want a repeat of that?
We ended slavery with an Amendment. We've had a dozen or so repeats already.
So I guess they didn't cover the Civil War when you were in middle school. Or are you still in elementary?
The Civil War was what ended slavery? I guess The Civil War was the only history covered when you were in middle school?
Good Saint Lincoln freed the black man because he loved equality and totally wasn't a totalitarian despot who suspended civil liberties and fought a war that killed 600,000 men, women and children in order to "preserve the union" and never addressed slavery as a policy issue until 3 years later when the public sentiment was turning against a domestic bloodbath.
So there are some benighted Lost Causers left.
Lincoln ran for the senate on ending slavery.
Yet, never mentioned the word in his declaration of war on the Confederate States.
The Thirteenth Amendment passed Congress while most of the slave states were having their tantrum over Lincoln's election.
Abraham Lincoln's death, was immediately after the surrender of the Confederacy, on April 15, 1865.
The 13th amendment was ratified on December 6, 1865.
Just short of eight months after the "tantrum" ended.
Yeh, I think you must not have studied that piece of history. The only thing the Civil War ended was secession.
I've studied it extensively. Looks like I accidentally dropped in on a Klan meeting.
FYI, I've been told by sober commentators that if one doesn't have a uterus, one doesn't get an opinion in the matter.
None of the Roe V Wade SCOTUS justices had a uterus. Therefore their opinion in Roe V Wade is null and void.
Yeah but Casey had O'Connor. Unless it was decided post hysterectomy.
I’m fine with not getting a say anymore, as long as men can abort their financial responsibilities for the same time period.
Now you're thinking! And if the fetus is XY, then unless it identifies as a woman, doesn't get a say in if (enter proper pronoun) lives.
Oh yeah, we got this figured out...
'Overturning Roe half a century later would be "a radical, not conservative, choice" because of the longstanding expectations it would upset, and he warns that such a reversal (like Roe itself) would damage the Court's reputation and undermine respect for the law.' Erm, it's a law that was decided based on poor reasoning at best, but getting rid of it will damage the Court's reputation? Keeping laws that were put in place based on faulty, biased reasoning will bolster respect for the law? Nice to see the shift into bizarro world is nearly complete.
I find it humorous how the Supreme Court granted every pregnant person a right to OWN their own body until viability... And here the world is arguing about NOT letting them own their own body; but putting the State in charge...
"Naw... We don't want people to have inherent rights... We want the State to pick and chose which rights we have."
SCOTUS doesn't grant rights.
Correct; All they do is LIMITS the POWER of government to thwart inherent individual rights by Gov-Gun force.
Sooo...
"I find it humorous how the Supreme Court LIMITED State governments from using their Gov-Guns to force the reproduction of every pregnant person until viability"
And here the world is arguing to EMPOWER governments..........
Those same totalitarian pricks also won't let me shoot you in the head. Can you believe that bullshit? Like, hello, do I not have gun rights? Do I not have bodily autonomy? Will these usurpations never end?
When you find me living up your *ss without your permission shoot away.. You might think you have a point but you don't.
If telling a woman that she can't kill the baby she, and some other guy, created is "empowering" government, then so is a law preventing me from shooting you.
In fact all laws are that.
Anarchist.
What "baby"???
Which is largely the same argument for not overturning Wickard and the expansive Commerce Clause.
Blackmun said it was covered by the "right to privacy," which likewise is not mentioned in the Constitution but in his view could be inferred from other provisions.
Not in the Constitution, but kinda sorta has a precedent with Griswal v. Connecticut. Of course, they pulled it out of the suppository repository there, too.
The 4th Amendment is a right to privacy, but not worded very well.
And the 2nd Amendment is a right to self-defense, against 4-legged critters, 2-legged critters, and the government.
We are well past the point where just about anyone on either side of this issue cares about legal reasoning.
SCOTUS justices started that trend in 1973.
Ahem. Wickard
Yeah... How DARE the SCOTUS stand up for people (having an inalienable right to their body) against government... They've been working for the legislative government for so long what happened???
I'm just proud it was a Republican Majority Court that wrote the Roe v Wade ruling.
Why?
It's interesting to note that in TJJ2000's deranged mind, the supreme court is not part of the government, and a 9 month old fetus that is 3/4 of the way out of its mother's body does not have an inalienable right to its body. God of the gaps indeed, eh?
Ever heard of *three* branches of Government?
And which branch is suppose to be upholding Individual Liberty (i.e. "The People's" law) over the Gov-Gun toting Legislation and ensuring Individual Rights and Justice for all?
"The People's" law, AKA "The law according to TJJ2000".
All hail!
The Ideologue's Guide to the Galaxy
Chapter 1: Get power by any means necessary
Chapter2: Use power to impose your desired opinions and outcomes
Any article that starts out by proclaiming that authoritarian monster Whitmer as "pro-choice" is obviously delusional.
Hey. Buying seeds at Lowes is not a constitutional right. There was a curve to flatten. Sheesh.
A stupid topic to include the concepts of "reason" or "logic" since most people work backwards instead of forwards on the issue.
Yes, exactly! Our emotions tell us what to think and do, and then we come up with the "reasons" and "logic" to back up our emotions!
Jonathan Haidt has written books about that! https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0307455777/reasonmagazinea-20/ ... And more!!!
Cite?
https://bigthink.com/personal-growth/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making/
Decisions are largely emotional, not logical
The neuroscience behind decision-making.
"Decisions" include damned near everything we think and do! Learn to "Google", intellectually stunted troglodyte!
Anyone with a brain.
Ahh. That's why you didn't cite yourself.
Cite?
One would think of alito started from a premise and worked a construction and it was so obvious, sarc could cite examples.
Only if they didn’t know sarc.
Rather than all the hoops, they could have come to the same conclusion by just citing the Ninth Amendment and leave it at that. But that would have opened a whole pandora's box from the vantage point of control addicts both left and right, so they came up with the decision we know now.
I don't give a damn, I'm tired of hearing about it.
aye
Really hilarious that the "Ruth Sent Us" mob really has no idea what RBG has said about Roe and neither do their blue haired adherents.
About 25 years ago I considered myself pro choice and assumed that Roe was wisely judged. Because Top Men. After hearing the opinions of people I respected (one of whom was Harry Browne) that Roe was bad law I decided to see for myself. Read the whole thing. I was frankly shocked by this contorted illogical pile of shit. I not only lost any faith in that court but the entire federal court system. The passing years have proven my cynicism to be a worthwhile asset. Reversing Roe will not bring back my naivety but seeing it happen in my lifetime will at least bring a smile to my face.
"...but seeing it happen in my lifetime will at least bring a smile to my face."
'Cause you're a Lying Lothario, and this will help your reproductive success, ye elephant-seal-wannabe?
Well, a lot of pro-lifers are men, and I would bet that even those pro-lifers who are women? Very few of them have found themselves in the following shoes: Lothario endlessly says “Love ya, babe, Love-ya- Love-ya- Love-ya, NOW can I get down your pants?” After she falls for him and he gets her pregnant, the abuse (from him) begins, and she finds out that he has 7 other “Love-ya” babes on the side, 4 of them also pregnant by him! So as I have said before, abortion is “veto power” against scum-bucket men. If these behavioral genes get passed on and on, humans will evolve into something like elephant seals, where the men most skilled at lying, and fighting off the other men, get a harem of 40 babes, and the rest of the men get nothing! So abortion is empowering women to fight off this sort of thing… And reserve their baby-making powers for men who are less lying scum, and will actually make good fathers to the children.
So, they want to “capitally punish” the “offenders”, while they have never been in the above-described (lied-to female) shoes! Self-righteousness, basically…
Or maybe some of the anti-abortion men fantasize and lust after being the elephant-seal-like men who can gather the baby-making powers of a harem of 40 lied-to women, under the new scheme of things?
I am glad that SOME you oppose theft. Theft by deception is also theft; I hope you can see that! When a severely lying Lothario-type dude (as described above) appropriates the baby-making powers of a deceived young woman, that, too, is theft! Abortion is anti-theft, when a deceived woman no longer wants to rent out her womb to a deceptive scumbag, prospective god-awful supposed "father"!
Those who are anti-abortion unmarried men should be out there desperately courting women who have already been deceived by scumbucket men, and volunteering to raise these unborn children (who are NOT their biological offspring), to fend off a HUGE root cause of abortion, and to put their money where their mouth is! And married anti-abortion men? Check with your wives; see if they mind you donating all your spare time and money to helping out these future unmarried moms!
Abortions outlawed is a "pro-Lying-Lothario" measure, intended to turn humans into elephant seals! He who lies the BEST, and deceives the MOST women, into getting pregnant, WINS the genetic lottery! Meek and mild, honest men who would make good fathers? Well, WHO CARES about THEM?!?!
Man, seeing that black guy fuck the shit out of your ex wife really did a number on you, didn't it sarcasmic?
The seven justices in the majority did not seem very concerned about precisely which provisions those were. But they were sure "this right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy."
This is the most annoying of the left wing position. There are some possible logical reasonings to conclude a restriction on government should exist. But the left wingers arguing for the government restrictions have already written those amendments and limitations out of existence. Then having eliminated those argue we must resurrect one single freedom among them all. So we're left with people who eliminate 99.5% of our rights pretending they're civil rights supporters.
What a joke.
It should be remembered that Roe v Wade was written by a Republican Majority.
And you're right. It is a joke that left pretends to be Pro-Choice when they're not Pro-Choice about anything and the biggest part of that is almost guaranteed to that the Right has taken up the Anti-Choice side (which ironically is mostly political show; not member base)...
Democrats are emotional flakes. There is no logic or principle there just Anti-Republican sentiment like Gangs of Detroit trying to knock each other down. So of course their only Pro-Choice narrative is the only Anti-Choice Republican decided to take-up.
“It should be remembered that Roe v Wade was written by a Republican Majority.”
Why?
It might mean something when people decide to elect a representative.
Representatives don’t play any role in the Supreme Court.
Just never-mind the whole confirmation process..
Haha! Well done.
Which was intended to be done by those, selected by their state legislatures, removed from the direct choice of the people.
It should be remembered that supreme court seats are not political positions and hence there are no "republican" or "democratic" justices. And also that government involvement in the taking of a life has been a feature of every society in recorded human history.
Yeah... Kill the Woman to save the ?Baby? that we won't even allow to exist (Fetal Ejection)!!!! /s.. Delusional... Completely Delusional Pro-Life is.
At a certain point, Beltway libertarians will realize that an unborn child's right to life supersedes a private corporation's right to engage in political speech while being subsidized by the American taxpayer.
More and more “beltway libertarians” is becoming an oxymoron.
So it was a shit decision then, nothing has changed but it cannot be reversed despite the damage it has done because it is the shit decision we have? Fuck you for this horseshit, there are plenty of wrongly decided cases and seeing this one go back to the states to decide is a good thing you authoritarian halfwit.
You're OK with forced pregnancy but you're calling someone else "authoritarian"?
No one is being forced to get pregnant.
Nope; Only giving "The State" the POWER to be forced to reproduce.
“The State” is forcing women to get pregnant? Cite?
Reading problems?
Nope. Maybe you missed middle school biology, but females need to get impregnated by males to reproduce. It’s essential. And the process by which this happens is not being forced by the state.
Wait, do you really think it’s going to turn into Handmaid’s Tale if Roe is overturned? Cause no one is being forced to fuck. You know, that thing that has to happen to reproduce.
Ya... No one is being forced to eat fast foods either. So State's and their Gov-Guns should certainly be empowered to ban them from liposuction... After all; they asked for it... /s
An Individual Right to free-market healthcare options??
No, no, no! Say it isn't so..../s
Only the Gov-Gods can properly instruct 'other' people on their PERSONAL decisions in their own healthcare.
because....... You don't own You; [WE] own you!
Carrying the fetus to term isn’t the same as forced breeding, you understand that right?
Being forced against one's own will (body rights) into reproducing is the same as forced reproduction, you understand that right?
Being held accountable for killing your inconvenient child is not the same as being forced to reproduce. The decision to let a man stick his penis in your vagina and ejaculate was not made by the state. Your desire to escape responsibility for having done so is no more forcing you to reproduce than taking you to court to pay back a loan that you took out is forcing you to borrow money. Good fucking God. It's no wonder men didn't let you stupid cunts have an opinion for 5,000 years.
What "child"???
Once there is a pregnancy, reproduction has already occurred.
If the truth doesn't work; Lie, Lie, Lie and Lie some-more..
If we keep Lying endlessly the "sheeple" will follow and think its true..
Diagnosis; Power-Mad.
You keep ignoring your opponent's point. This could go on forever.
Endless B.S. is an opponents point. If it's a human life set if FREE...
What else is there to argue about? Some "mythical creatures" that live only in one's own imagination?
Sorry TJJ2000, the bottom line is that sexual intercourse is (generally) a voluntary act, and the consequences of sexual intercourse are well-known. When a human life is created, we have to look at that differently, in a moral sense.
It is not an easy question. But the people should decide this question for themselves, and not nine unelected SCOTUS justices. I just don't see the problem...you think women are stupid or something? They cannot think for themselves and vote?
Yea!!! Dismantle the SCOTUS!!!
F-The Constitution and any notion to inherent body rights or Individual Liberty.
The STATE should be the almighty Gov-God.... /s
I’ll take that as a no.
Fuck me if R Mac is right about you being a parody.
Some people think the Handmaid’s Tale is an accurate analogy. Those people are stupid.
This is the stupidest argument.
Pregnancy is a known risk of having sexual intercourse. The entire biological purpose of sex is to make babies. If you engage in sexual intercourse, there's a chance you could get pregnant. Stop acting like it's a fucking surprise, and women were forced to take the risk.
Death is a known risk of gun operation. The entire purpose of owning a gun is to kill something............. Stop acting like it's a f*cking surprise that homicide occurred, and people were forced to operate a gun.
Need I go on?????
Homicide is not the primary biological objective of gun use. Your analogy would be useful if someone was making an argument to deny someone STD treatment. Even then it would be tortured.
Homicide is not the primary biological objective of gun use.
But pregnancy is the primary biological objective of sexual intercourse?
Yeah.... Go on with your bad self.
Oh... Maybe I should exclude paint-guns I guess... Ya know like you could exclude butt-sex.
But the meat of it all is; Seems you'd like to prosecute the act of sex and any accident that might occur from it like leftards want to prosecute the act of using a gun and any accident that might occur from it.
“But pregnancy is the primary biological objective of sexual intercourse?”
Hey, I already admitted I’m long overdue acknowledging your parody. I was just ignoring you this whole time nail.
Yes? I mean... wow. Really?
Did you seriously just write that you don't know what the primary biological objective of sexual intercourse is?
"Mommy, where do babies come from?"
"Ask your father"
"He says he doesn't know."
Right.... I find it humorous you're all agreeing the the absurdity of the simile.. Yet I find it odd you're all trying dog-pile me for it.
Please don't! Your logic is moronic, and this is me being nice.
Deserves a repeat, "What does Right to Life, Liberty, Pursuit of Happiness mean though? I would submit that it doesn't have anything to do with abortion and was meant to say people have the right to live their lives without undue interference by the government."
https://reason.com/2022/05/09/what-the-leaked-abortion-opinion-gets-wrong-about-the-founding-era/?comments=true#comment-9484748
"Undue influence" would be when government interferes in activities which potentially harm no one else other than the person choosing to engage in the activity, which abortion is not an example of.
Free the Fetus!!! PROVE there's another person involved.
Since you don't know the basics of human reproductive biology, it's hardly surprising you've confused the declaration of independence for the United States constitution or any United States law, but it would probably be better if you didn't make a special point of broadcasting your ignorance.
And of course, one wonders how the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of a 9 month old with its head and shoulders protruding from its mother's vagina squares up with its mother's right to hire a physician to puncture its skull and suck its brain out with a vacuum.
So make it illegal for physicians to puncture its skull and suck its brain out with a vacuum.... ( I hardly doubt actually happens ). No one disagrees with your wild assertion.
In the same token; ALLOW it to be set free!! RU purposely insisting that all "?human life?" be imprisoned in someone else's womb??
Sounds like you're OK with any child, who cant fend for itself, being subject to being killed.
It's been "set free" but can't survive, so it's not alive.
I get it.
You're a nut case.
What "child"???
Of course while it is vital and interesting to discuss how the topic of abortion is manifested in our laws and regulations, the real battle is being fought far upstream of the law.
- Laws are built from cultural values.
- Cultures are built from family values.
- Families are built from individual values.
- And individuals are created in the image of God (or of "nothing", which makes no sense but some people believe it anyway.)
The essential point of content of abortion -- the personhood of the unborn -- lies at the bottom-most layer. It cannot be avoided, though Lord knows we've tried for 49 years to do exactly that.
If you actually want to exert a right to an elective abortion and make it last, you've got to convince people that the unborn are not persons. And conversely, if you can't do that, then you should be 100% against elective abortions.
That should be "The essential point of contention". Hey Reason.com, where's my edit button? This isn't twatter, this is long-form commenting.
Dave, you write:
"If you actually want to exert a right to an elective abortion and make it last, you've got to convince people that the unborn are not persons."
No, the point is not that "the unborn" change from being embryos - which are lost by the millions every year by natural miscarries, often early enough that the woman doesn't even know it occurred (it's estimated that 1 in 4 pregnancies end this way with the number going up for older women) - to sensate, active, and critically, viable beings, previously deemed "quickened". Roe provides for these changes. If your religion determines that an embryo is a human, a person, that is fine, but it is not a matter of scientific, legal, or common fact.
Sorry, should be:
"No, the point is that "the unborn" change from being embryos........"
From conception to uterine implantation the survival rate is about 50% give or take depending on study read. Once implanted then of course the survival rate is 90% or whatever...it's high.
To me, this is why "life begins at conception" is a tough sell, especially if the person selling it is a Christian that believes the embryo has an eternal soul.
On the other hand, once implanted, the fetus is it's own entity with it's own DNA that's very likely to survive to birth. Whether you want to call this fetus a person with the right to life seems to be more of a matter of ethics than science. But, it's NOT just the "woman's body", it's obviously more than that.
"it's obviously more than that" -- So set it free or admit what's there isn't completed enough to have rights of it's own. Wow.. It's almost like Roe v Wade already addressed this 50-years ago.
"- Laws are built from cultural values.
- Cultures are built from family values.
- Families are built from individual values.
- And individuals are created in the image of God (or of "nothing", which makes no sense but some people believe it anyway.)"
Bullet two is untrue and bullet four is a personal opinion thatnis irrelevant to abortion.
But take those two out and edit #3 and I agree completely:
- Laws are built from cultural values.
- Cultural values are built from individual values.
Family and God aren't necessary to create strong moral and community values. Millions of people do it every day.
"you've got to convince people that the unborn are not persons."
Already done. Your position on when personhood begins is a minority position. Plus I don't see why the ball is in the pro-choice court.
If you assume that the default position is personal liberty (or bodily autonomy or privacy or whatever you want to call it), the onus is on the anti-abortionists to justify restricting that liberty. And since Roe was passed, they have failed to do so. People overwhelmingly reject the position that abortion should be illegal.
"And conversely, if you can't do that, then you should be 100% against elective abortions."
My beliefs about abortion aren't connected to what other people think, nor should they be. You should maintain your belief that abortion should be illegal even though most people disagree because you have arrived at that conclusion through your own moral reasoning. Whether I or anyone else finds that reasoning flawed is irrelevant.
Thanks for the response. You said,
But that can't be right. If you assume that the default position is personal liberty, then the default is that a person is a person no matter how small. No?
If you want to infringe on a woman's liberty, you must first show that there is another competing liberty interest. The onus is on the anti-abortion side to make a believable, logical, and rational argument for a fertilized egg being a person, since the reality is that it is just a potential person. At fertilization there is less than a 50% chance that a living human results without abortion even entering the picture.
The problem that you have is that in almost 50 years, after spending billions of dollars and countless hours of effort, there is still only a small minority of people who believe life (meaning personhood) begins at conception. It hasn't changed because it isn't a compelling argument.
And it is only likely to shrink as the main support base of the anti-abortion movement (religious organizations) continues to shrink.
You want people to just accept that DNA is destiny and that it is the same thing as a real, klve hunan. But if a fetus has a 0% chance of survival without the mother, many people see that as a logical reason to say it isn't a person. Because it is logical.
I just can't wait until the fanatics in red states actually pass a fetal personhood bill and have to either create exceptions for IVF, stem cell research, and other desirablw technologies or face the electoral wrath of upper-middle-class suburbanites. I expect that "life begins at conception" will quickly become "life created through intercourse begins at conception.
Anti-abortionists have gotten what they wanted. It will be interesting and instructive to see what they do with it.
"convince people that the unborn are not persons"
Gosh; And I thought it would be something hard to do...
If it's a person set if FREE!! How hard can this get?
The "not persons" argument was used extensively for the enslavement of others.
Most of those, arguing for non-personhood of developing humans, are using the same tactic.
Free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Set it Free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What kind of dolt can't recognize the MANDATORY entrapment of this (mystical creature) is actually enslavement itself?????
Topped off by utter ignorance about how demanding a woman to reproduce isn't involuntary servitude...
The way you Pro-Lifers SPIN, SPIN, SPIN up is down, left is right is just crazy.
Slocum cut and copied from a couple of previous articles and well known opinions to defend a logic which would upend privacy as a constitutional right, the basis on which Roe was decided. Fine if that's where his reasoning - should say the reasoning of others he regurgitates - takes him, but it leaves libertarians then as logical and necessary enemies of the constitution. Why he would cheer on that idea is confusing.
Here we are again, talking about abortion. Sigh. So yeah, the "penumbra" of privacy was a silly thing to base the decision on. It would have been better to directly invoke the Ninth Amendment, but even that needs a right to claim. What exactly is that right? The right to a specific medical procedure? Huh?
On the flip side, some people argue that high population growth is in the state's interest. I disagree. But you do see some nations who not only ban abortions, but also subsidize births. And then you have China on the flip side of that with the two child rule.
So yes, "right to life" would be sufficient basis for an abortion ban. But the question still remains as to when that life starts in a legal sense. That has always been the rub.
But what exactly is the foundation for a right to abort? It's simple, in my mind. And dovetails in with the prior right to life: The Ninth Amendment covers the right to make medical choices for oneself. Gosh, even covering vaccine refusal! One just can't harm or endanger anyone else. So yeah, vaccine refusal is fine, sending your unvaccinated child to public school is not.
The question then still comes down to, when does personhood start? When does life start in the legal sense?
We have an answer to that. It's in Common Law. Abortion is legal up until the "quickening", or when the fetus starts moving. That's around three to four months. So the "first trimester" rule was on point. A "heart beat" rule might work, but that's up to the courts to decide.
So my gut tells me to stick with the first trimester rule. The real question is over where the right to abort comes from, and it's the Ninth Amendment and the unenumerated right to make medical decisions for oneself that do not harm others.
I'll shift into searching-for-minute-details mode and ask the lawyers out there to answer some legal questions I have.
"So yeah, the "penumbra" of privacy was a silly thing to base the decision on."
I thought Roe was a Fourteenth Amebdment ruling, not privacy.
And would you have to use the penumbra of privacy or would a straight privacy consideration be applicable?
"It would have been better to directly invoke the Ninth Amendment, but even that needs a right to claim."
Does there have to be another right involved to have the Ninth Amendment be considered? Said another way, are Ninth Amendment rights only derivative rights or are they free-standing?
Also, is there a process by which unenumerated rights are determined, is it a preponderance of supporting logic or laws, or is it something else?
"It's in Common Law"
How broad is Common Law? Is it legal documents and laws from English law or can it include common practices and cultural norms?
And how binding is Common Law on Constitutional law?
"The Ninth Amendment covers the right to make medical choices for oneself."
Has that been established? I thought it was along the lines of doctor-patient/priest-penitent/spousal confidentiality. A law, but not a Constitutional right.
Finally, and this one is probably a doozy, what sort of basis is necessary to constrain rights that have been acknowledged?
So for example if people have the right to make their own medical decisions, can a mandatory ultrasound (and the costs associated with it) be a valid constraint on that right? Or a mandatory waiting period (with the costs associated with it)? How relevant or strong must a requirement be to overcome a right?
I know these are serious questions, but this is a serious topic and I would love some input from people who actually know and work with the law.
Reasonable, but that's essentially putting your hand in a wood chipper in absolutist, shouting-at-the-rain modern America. I'd love a second Bill of Rights assuring freedoms like privacy in one's person, papers, and property. As it stands, one can infer a right of bodily integrity from the Constitution, but again, love to see that as an amendment as well. The problem is that the statists on both sides don't freedom.
I agree that the logic of Roe is less-than-convincing. But I can't bring myself to support overturning Roe, because of the real-life effects. Ending Roe undermines the dignity of women; it says they can't be trusted to weigh the moral pros and cons themselves. As a former math major I wish the world worked by clean simple rules, and the rules should always matter above all. But the rules are a means, not an end. The people are the end. I'm aware that such "Flight 93 election" reasoning can enable innumerable bad things. And yet, if this was up to me, I couldn't overturn Roe.
>Ending Roe undermines the dignity of women; it says they can't be trusted to weigh the moral pros and cons themselves.
As opposed to banning murder?
What "murder"???
"right to privacy," is why I'm allowed to cook meth and build machine guns in my garage, right?
Hey the fire is already going; throw another log on it!
Wow; This is as fun as Democrats blaming Republicans for everything they do but the other side didn't stop them...
The critical question on abortion is: When does a group of living cells become a living human with constitutional rights? We routinely say that a human is dead when higher brain function ends even though a lot of cells are still alive. Human existence is synchronous with higher brain function. This, developing cells become a human person when the brain starts learning when the sound input gets connected near the end of the second trimester.
No, that's not the "critical question". The question is, does a woman own her own body, and therefore have the right to control what goes on inside it.
As a thought exercise, I sometimes ask people who believe the decision in Roe v Wade was legally sound:
Funny thing is, I rarely get a "Yes, of course" type of answer but instead something like "No, but that's different".
I then point out that this is directly analogous to what the court did in Roe v Wade.
When I then ask if they think one has an inherent right to defend themselves from physical attack that may result in death and there is no one else to help stop the attack (such as a police officer). Generally they will acknowledge that is the case.
But they then often claim that a firearm isn't needed for self defense. I then inquire as to if they think that when they are 85 years old and out for a walk they will be confident that they can defend themselves, without a firearm, against three 25 year old gym rats who are 6'-3" and weigh 270 lbs each - all muscle - who take a violent dislike to them because of their race or the political sentiments expressed on the cap they are wearing. The conversation often stalls there...