The Independents

Tonight on The Independents: The War on War

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You got to learn how to die-hi-hiiiigh… |||

Friday night episodes of The Independents (Fox Business Network, 9 p.m. ET, 6 p.m. PT, with re-airs three hours and five hours later) are organized around a single theme. Tonight's theme is "The War on War." That is, the show is talking about phrases that begin with "The war on…," and, well, declaring our own war against the promiscuous usage thereof.

Fittingly, the conversation starts off with a discussion of the actual war-related content, as in, what exactly is "The War on Terror," should we still be fighting it, and is it time for a new name/emphasis? Joining to ponder that question in light of recent ISIL-flavored events is former Reagan-administration deputy defense secretary K.T. McFarland and retired Col. David Hunt.

Next, to tackle the war metaphor head-on, is Cato Executive Vice President David Boaz. What do Democrats mean when they say there's a "War on Women," and what do Republicans do to further that impression? Hadley Heath Manning, director of health care policy at the Independent Women's Forum, will give her 77 cents.

Reason readers certainly know about the horrific consequences of the "War on Drugs"; helping FBN viewers through this policy thicket is longtime former vice cop and current board chair of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition Jack Cole. The War on Drugs is part of a larger "War on Crime," which in 2014 seems ripe for long-overdue reform. One of the broad shoulders on that particular wheel belongs to Chuck DeVore, vice president of the Texas Public Policy Foundation.

Is there really a "War on Christmas"? Fox News radio host John Gibson certainly thinks so; he'll be on to defend his pet metaphor. Then the co-hosts will assess LBJ's "War on Poverty" a half-century on. You people will enjoy this television program.

Follow The Independents on Facebook at facebook.com/IndependentsFBN, follow on Twitter @ independentsFBN, and click on this page for more video of past segments.

NEXT: Jesse Benton, Former Ron Paul Campaign Manager, Resigns From Mitch McConnell Re-Election Bid Days After Revelations Paul Campaign Bribed Iowa State Senator for Support

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  1. Tonight’s theme is “The War on War.

    Does that mean we can suspend everyone’s constitutional rights and take their tax payments to arm ourselves to the teeth?

    1. So.. become the police?

    2. arm ourselves to the teeth

      Does that mean I get my own Apache? (I’d settle for an M1A1)

    3. Hello.

      What about the war on interruptions?

      1. Kennedy’s all over it.

    4. arm ourselves to the teeth

      You mean there are those among us who are not already?

  2. Ohio abortion clinic closes, enemies of the First Amendment hardest hit:

    “For months, anti-choice extremists have targeted the doctors at Complete Healthcare for Women because they provided their patients with abortion care in addition to their other obstetric and gynecological services. These doctors have been harassed at their practice, leaflets calling them “killers” have been distributed in their neighborhood and protesters have picketed a hospital where they have admitting privileges. I would not be surprised if this campaign of harassment played a role in their decision to stop providing abortion care to their patients. No one should face this harassment for providing constitutionally protected health care services.”

    http://www.prochoiceohio.org/m…..0828.shtml

    1. You know, I’m pro-choice, but even I feel a little schadenfreude when an abortion clinic closes due to public pressure because so damn many pro-choice activists are fucking disgusting.

      It doesn’t make a lot of sense, I guess, but there it is.

      1. “abortion care”

        they nurse the abortions to adulthood

        Where do you think Tony came from?

        1. “Where do you think Tony came from?”

          A bird shit on a post?

    2. constitutionally protected health care services

      Umm…what? (I know, I know, they think healthcare (which must be provided by another person through a voluntary transaction) is a right).

      P.s.
      It’s a parentheses within a parentheses!

  3. I have a new exhibit in my traveling Freak Show of Derp. Behold the monstrosity that is Dave Sirota!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOK0GJAOmUs

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywDuCEIeHnM

      1. Sirota is a brainless (to put it nicely) progtard. He’s the annoying dolt you knew as a freshman in college who suddenly decided he alone can save the world. Slightly less stupid than Amy Goodman.

        To imply tha Bloomberg and Gates are raping the public schools for PROFIT is hilarious. Whatever you think about those dudes, they don’t need more money…that newspapers actually print this idjit on their op ed pages explains a lot about their impending doom. I’m sure there is someone out there in the policy world that is stupider but I’ve not encountered them yet.

    1. I saw, “Radio talk show host”

      that was enough. Those people are like Derp-Catfish. They feed off of it. Radio people exaggerate the retarded elements of themselves because that’s why people listen to their shows.

      1. I read that the pleasure center of the brain responds the same to favorable opinions as it does to food, drugs, or sex.

    2. Sirota certainly has a tendency for frothing rage debating. But in fairness to him, his point regarding opposition to the president claiming the authority to execute American citizens abroad is spot on, and was something that was not addressed by his debating opposition.

  4. “what exactly is “The War on Terror,” should we still be fighting it, and is it time for a new name/emphasis?”

    Trick question: The author already believes that whatever the definition, the answer to the following questions is, “no, and Intervention”

    i dislike the way everything is framed such that there is an inevitable preconceived answer of:

    shit is complicated and we might as well dismiss everything as more trouble than its worth rather than deal with the minutiae and end up coming to uncomfortable conclusions which may run afoul of our political leanings

    There needs to be a better framework that allows for people to retain their positions *while* dealing with the details.

    Example = hawks like to frame things in the context of a new “cold war”: the ‘enemy is everywhere, constantly changing – therefore, there are/should be no limits to the security state or efforts to eradicate the threats”. Something like that.

    you need to take their framework apart.

    1) Islamic terrorism is not (like the Soviets) an ‘existential threat’.
    2) endless war poses an ‘existential threat’ to American liberty
    3) the threat posed by islamic terrorism is one that can be confined and dealt with on a case by case basis rather than with the “open ended war” metaphor.
    4) we should engage in multilateral efforts to both limit (rather than eliminate) threats, and provide incentives for Arab nations to stop supporting proxy islamist movements.

    1. Knocked it out of the park. While we’re at it, as a tangential point one loses credibility by not describing situations accurately; defending Russian tyrants or Venezuelan socialists is not a good way of convincing the people one is trying to convince of the integrity of your other claims (and no, not all libertarians in print do that but a significant portion of them do).

    2. The problem is there are almost no politicians who want to do what is necessary, namely:

      1. Ending aid to Israel

      2. Withdrawing military forces from the Middle East.

      3. Profiling at airports, as the Israelis do

      4. Ending support for Muslim dictators

      Any one of those things would greatly reduce the risk of terrorism.

      1. i doubt any of the above would achieve what you think of as ‘risk reduction’.

        Even were 1,2,4 all done overnight – we’d still end up in a position of backstopping security for ‘the kingdom’ by some means or another.

        The 5th fleet exists in order to keep oil coming out of the gulf.

        To some degree, we are policing against the possibility of a long term Iranian/Saudi cold war becoming a hot one.

        None of the things mentioned above affect that in any way.

        Any critics of this particular status quo need to consider what the potential alternatives are and how bad they could actually be, before passing judgement on how awful this is.

        1. Why do we need to prop up Saudi Arabia? For oil?

          To hell with that.

          1. Well if you have theories on how a Bicycle-Centric economy would work out for everyone in the developing world, i’m open to hearing about it.

            1. Suppose another hard-line Islamic govt takes over Saudi Arabia like in Iran. Those guys aren’t going to stop selling oil, just as the Iranians didn’t.

              1. The Saudi’s supposedly have their refineries wired with explosives. A regime change could be…problematic.

                1. Saddam torched the wells in Kuwait and they were fixed.

                  1. Yeah, and it was a huge shit show for a country the size of New Hampshire. What happens when oil fields several thousand times that size go up? I’m just sayin’.

    3. I’d argue that Islamism is indeed an existential threat, albeit one that is less threatening than Soviet communism was (although it’s worth noting that it’s gaining ground, both literally and figuratively).

      But the Islamist worldview is indeed at odds with the very existence of limited constitutional govt and protection of minority rights.

      1. by that coin, the Progressive Worldview is equally so, and presents a far more realistic threat than ‘Looming Sharia Law‘ taking hold in the US.

        1. In the immediate term, I agree (also worth noting that I generally agree with points 2-4 you raised).

          Islamism isn’t about playing for the immediate term though. They’ve got the long view in their sights.

      2. Disagree. Islamism is effectively a regional threat in the parts of the world with a significant (30% or more) Muslim population. There is no country with such a population in the Western Hemisphere, and every country with such a population must cross the Atlantic Ocean to reach us, without anything like a developed land or naval force to confront our own (which last I checked, is still overwhelmingly dominant esp in the ocean). Unlike communism, it has zero appeal to non-Muslims and there is no threat of it creating a power which can influence other nations to kowtow to it. Islamism is often (though not always) linked to some variant of socialism or atuarky, which virtually guarantees poverty and a lack of industrialization in an Islamist state. At worst, they can kick over our sandcastles in the Middle East, fuck up oil markets and sponsor occasional acts of terrorism — harmful, but not an existential threat.

        Push comes to shove, we can always limit emigration from problem areas and pressure other countries in the Western Hemisphere to do the same.

        1. Unlike communism, it has zero appeal to non-Muslims

          It may have zero appeal to non-Muslims, but its strategy for gaining a foothold in the West is partly by conversion of the disaffected groups to Islam. It being perceived as a movement gaining in strength and having a cohesive ideology can appeal to and has already attracted converts from marginalized communities.

    4. I’m more open-ended than you give me credit for here; also, I think you will find the discussion less loaded than you think.

      1. yeah, i know.

        I see chops, i bust them. its a weakness i have.

        1. I see chops, i bust them.

          Start busting his chops for not posting a live thread on Thursdays for ‘Stossel’.

  5. I have unearthed a new rich vein of derp: Ann Coulter vs. Whoopi Goldberg on racism.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Hb80gki_E

    1. Speaking of Skeletor I just saw this come across Lucy S.. omethingorother’s twitter feed:

      Lucy Somethingorother
      But Mark Ames taught me that the TSA backlash was libertarian astroturf. 🙁
      ?
      Ann Coulter @AnnCoulter
      If libertarian attacks on cops had any purpose other than getting liberals to like them, once in awhile, they’d mention a TSA agent.

      1. So Coulter never reads Reason then.

        Huh. Prepare the Fainting Couch and fetch the smelling salts, post haste!

    2. Derpetologist|8.29.14 @ 8:28PM|#
      “I have unearthed a new rich vein of derp: Ann Coulter vs. Whoopi Goldberg on racism.”

      Is there some sort of a filter where I can just listen to the incoherent screaming.

  6. I think my derp theme for the evening will be progs trying to violently squelch protest:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKe14jtpbbY

    1. So she’s irate at the use of photos of a “poor dying fucking fetus” because “it’s not that simple” and “you have no fucking idea what it takes for people to make these fucking decisions.”

      All of this seems to fit rather neatly into the pro-life narrative that a fetus is indeed life, and as such worthy of protection. If this were merely a ball of cells with no underlying humanity, there would be no wrestling with moral quandry and no offense taken to the discarded ball of cells. It would indeed be that “fucking simple.”

      She exposed herself more than the protestors could ever dream: someone who believes that killing is acceptable if it aids the convenience of your own life, and no amount of guilt or pensive self-reflection can alter the fact that such a mentality is the purview of monsters.

      1. Did someone say “clump of cells”?

        Because that’s the MAGIC WORD!

        HA HA! HE HE!

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g67z_xBe07Q

        1. I remember that video a month or two ago. It’s even more deliciously meta in light of Burger King’s recent decision to relocate corporate HQ to the Queen’s realm.

    2. This is LIFE and it’s not that fucking simple! – violent prog

      Well, yea. That’s what the abortion protestors were kinda getting at.
      Also, it was obviously the abortion protestor’s fault that violent prog acted violently. I mean, she was TRIGGERED, after all.

  7. Well, if you haven’t had the pleasure of watching a pro at work, you’re out of luck!

    “Chelsea Clinton quits as NBC News reporter”
    […]
    “Bill and Hillary Rodham Clinton’s daughter had been working at the network since 2011, sporadically doing feature stories on people or organizations doing public-spirited work. Politico magazine reported earlier this year that NBC was paying her $600,000 a year.”
    http://www.sfgate.com/entertai…..ertainment

    The $660K sure wasn’t for her looks, so it must have been for her professional delivery, right?

    1. Ouch.

      For christs sake, is anyone going to argue that kind of salary *isnt* baksheesh to the next-potential President?

      meanwhile, we’re told that we don’t have *enough regulations* preventing this sort of thing.

      1. “For christs sake, is anyone going to argue that kind of salary *isnt* baksheesh to the next-potential President?”

        I’m too lazy to look for it right now, but there’s some tech-bucks guy in CA using his money to fight against anonymous money in politics.
        So, yeah, I’m sure he, being a lefty, would require this to be reported. Right? Right?

        1. 600K?

          For HER?

          And to think true journalists live pay check to pay check.

          1. Just wool-gathering:
            Imagine if one of Bush’s kids ended up as a “reporter” on one of the news broadcasting stations at $600K.
            I have a feeling that a $600K (my mistake above) salary would get screaming attention from the lefty press.

            1. Indeed. And I’ve noticed how Democrats tend to get huge book advances, that often never pay off.

            2. Uh, I don’t know how much she makes but NBC also hired Jenna Bush Hager several year ago, too.

  8. Holy crap, this is funny- gay marriage activist vs. black conservative

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT9TwDiYrL8

    1. Always bet on black.

      *Give yourself a pat if you know the movie.

      1. I know we’re libertarian, but FFS we aren’t all nerds. Darth Vader quotes aren’t that awesome

        1. You don’t get to pat yourself on the back.

          Not a Darth Vader quote.

          1. Everyone knows it’s Snipes on a Plane.

            1. Ding, ding, ding!

              Or as my friend called it: Black man on a plane who beats up everyone.

              Pat, pat, pat.

              1. “I HAVE HAD IT WITH THESE MOTHERFUCKING SNIPES ON THIS MOTHERFUCKING PLANE!”

                Another great quote from the movie.

  9. Flabby, belligerent man & shrieking woman harass Christian protester at gay rally:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzS-QuSttfs

    Things get interesting at the 2:26 mark.

    1. It’s like when those prochoice protesters tried to mingle with the prolife protesters, and the prolifers attacked the prochoicers and ripped away their signs and threw them to the ground…

      Well, technically that isn’t true, but it’s *emotionally* true, and that’s what matters.

      http://saturdaychores.tumblr.com/

  10. You know who else was named Hitler?

    1. Adolf?

    2. Well, Eva may have been for several hours.

      1. Hey, look here!
        “Eva Anna Paula Hitler was the longtime companion of Adolf Hitler and, for less than 40 hours, his wife.”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Braun

        OK, so it’s Wiki, but…

    3. Eva Braun, during the last few minutes of her life?

  11. What. The. Eff.

    One of the panelists isn’t even here?

  12. Drugs attacked me. Drugs attacked me. We need war.

  13. Wait.

    Aren’t the Hatfield and McCoy clans still at war with each other?

    Or is it the Hatrocks vs. the Gruesomes?

    I forget.

  14. How about a war on fake books.

  15. Arab sandals?

    Oh dear me.

    RACIST!

  16. We can’t kill em all? Does that mean Allah also can’t sort em out?

    1. Does that mean Allah also can’t sort em out?

      Not enough virgins…

  17. Lisa Cutnrunnedy Montgomery.

  18. I’m sure the Col. is impressed that you’re impressed, Kennedy. I think I prefer it when you interrupt.

  19. America’s default position is missionary.

  20. missionary mission

    This is my favorite mission. (I also like ‘Cowgirl’ Mission)

  21. War on everything. It’s scandalous. I dub it War-tergate!

  22. Put up with? I demand restrictions on my liberty if it means winning whatever.

  23. You Know Who Else wanted a war to end wars?

  24. War on progressives!

    Who’s with me?!

  25. I can get you all marching off to war.

    Battle Hymn of the Republic:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSiVjlknuSw

        1. And of course the Montenegrin National Anthem:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPtPjMdtofk

        1. I’ve heard it, and I find it to be antithetical to the concept of Consent of the Governed.

          1. I just think the lyrics are funny. I’d love to hear a Rebel parody of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. This is not it, but it’s still pretty good:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWgsdexkv18

            1. That was pretty funny.

  26. Phallusy?

  27. The Independents Attire Review, 29 August 2014

    I Bet You’re a Big Lee Marvin Fan“-Edition

    – Kennedy: Black: We’ve referenced ‘Metallica’/Wicca/Mummenshantz/and ‘Ballet Instructor’ fantasies… what’s left? ah, so. Ninja-Kennedy? her lightening interruptions stun unsuspecting guests into submission. While I think there’s probably a place for something Black in the Host repertoire, we’re still kind of missing something with the presentation here. We continue to endorse upping the ante to a full-on Ramones T: if Kmele can get freaky, I see nothing stopping other guests.

    – Matt: Best so far in the quest for ‘Blue on Blue on Blue’ perfection. If Power-Matt is the #1 with red-tie/white shirt, this makes for a good alternate that produces the same effect. There’s a reason politicians have latched onto these formulae for their respective parties. Matt could add to his darker-blue tie roster here and continue to build on a very good thing.

    – Kmele: Reverend Kmele Davis-Aloysious-Washington-Foster of the First Gospel Church of the Reformed Abyssinian Libertarian Baptist Choir will later be leading us tonight in a vigorous rendition of “When The Praises Go Up, The Blessings Come Down”. The hanky here needs to be ridiculously enlarged so as to be readily available for sweat-mopping. Everything else is daptastic.

    Ashoge

    1. in case anyone isn’t hip to the aforementioned gospel standard.

      this is how it goes

      I think there’s like 5000 versions of that on Youtube. Its a popular one.

  28. If you have a penis you don’t get to talk about rape or uteruses.

  29. Kmele Foster: Don’t talk shit about entitlements!

  30. Women are perfectly capable of…

    SEXIST!

    1. Perfectly capable of what?

      Finish the sentence!

      Blow jobs? Hand jobs? Dirty jobs?

      1. All of those jobs, and more!

  31. Women are capable and responsible? Someone might want to tell them that.

  32. Hadley got to have the last word, unless you count all of Kennedy’s there at the end.

  33. Did Welch just interrupt a guest?

    1. Yes.

      But he gets a pass.

      He had a question. Not a soliloquy to express.

      1. Fair enough.

  34. So this guy benefited from the drug war then and he’s benefiting from it now!

  35. WHAT.

    A.

    RACKET.

    No kidding cops and prosecutors are abusing this war.

  36. Is the sun still up in Texas? Because if not, I suspect this episode is a…

    PRETAPE!

  37. Drugs are bad? Even penicillin?

  38. What would the Baby Jesus do?

  39. Whats with all this christmas-mocking-blasphemery?

    Merrying anyone outside of the 12 days is a Coal-Worthy abomination

  40. When something is banned, it’s done so ultimately at the point of a gun. THAT’S AN ACT OF WAR!

  41. “We needed some levity and smarts.”

    Ouch for the other guests.

  42. Of course these are religious symbols – duh!

    Let the complainers put up their own symbols, assuming (a big assumption) that they’re not just trolling.

  43. So, I was in the area yesterday, and I made a reservation with Rush Street in Culver City for The LA Reasonoid Football Kickoff Meetup*

    So, don’t be douchebags and leave me hanging. I know asking you guys not to be douchebags is like asking a wasp not to sting you, but… still, don’t be.

    Anyway, Rush Street, Culver City (on Culver Blvd), Sunday, September 7th, 11 AM.

    *You do not have to watch football

  44. Where do we get that poverty line in the first place? THE GOVERNMENT.

  45. Try as I might, I cannot find any videos of pro-choice folks being civil with pro-life protesters:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpcInX_ukIE

    1. It’s just an off-duty cop, watering the protesters.

      Too bad he didn’t have an extendable pocket hose.

  46. Shazaaam! DOBBS

    The Mexican-Terrorist nexxus is something he has yearned for now for decades, and finally his dreams are coming to fruition.

    ISIS-in-Juarez IS REAL!!

    1. So, the story I read said they were planning to set off car bombs somewhere near the border….

      What the hell is on the border that anyone would give a shit about? That alone makes me question it.

      Unless maybe they want it to be clear that lax border enforcement caused it, in order to create a civil war in the US, or to get Republicans elected to push the US toward ground war? But that’s assuming some deep chessmaster shit from a group whose main asset seem to be living so far past the moral event horizon that they’re constantly underestimated.

  47. FoxBusiness…DOT COM

    “You’re using an unneeded ‘F’!” (or something)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6yksaCcR4s

  48. I know we give a lot of grief to the folks here but I do like these themed shows.

  49. FYI

    Radley Balko on Vice = 40min interview with the maestro of militarized cops

  50. Bobarian should be pleased we crashed through 100 comments easy.

    I’ve seen as many as 12 000 in Yahoo articles though.

    We should try and set a Guinness world record here at Reason for most comments on a thread.

    1. We should try and set a Guinness world record here at Reason for most comments on a thread.

      If you really want a lot of comments then just let Mary Stack loose. Back in her White Indian days she would cause 1000 comments-plus Weekend threads.

    2. Wait for late Oct 2016:

      “The libertarian case for Elizabeth Warren”

      1000+ comments easy

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