Tonight on The Independents: Nick Gillespie! Glenn Greenwald! KANE!

Did you ever want to see what a cable news show would like with a Reason editor as the host? Well, regardless of that, tonight's episode of The Independents (Fox Business Network 9 pm ET, 6 pm PT; repeats three hours later), is notable for the absence of main host Kennedy, who's on the emergency DL with an unspeakable disease of some sort. However, keeping with the Wednesday tradition, tonight's episode will serve up quivering, bloody hunks of libertarian red meat.

For instance: The WWE wrestler known as Kane (real name Glenn Jacobs) talks about how writers like Murray Rothbard led him down the path to libertarianism, and how the limited-government message resonates with the independent contractors that populate his industry. Speaking of Glenns, Mr. Greenwald joins the fray for two segments at the top, to talk about the British government's online reputation-destroying system, his approach in publishing Edward Snowden secrets, whether he truly fears coming to New York in April, and whether he is now or has ever been friendly with libertarians. Also, beloved Reasoner Nick Gillespie talks about what President Barack Obama's budget tells us about the near-term prospects for entitlement reform.

Panelists Dagen McDowell (Fox News correspondent) and Tom Shillue (comedian, tall person, harmonizer) talk about real man of genius Joe Biden, particularly his comments about Obamacare bringing "freedom" to single moms with bad jobs. The duo also weigh in on the president's truly awful $300 billion+ transportation proposal.

There will be no earrings to critique tonight, just sadly neglected earring-holes. Nevertheless, send your tweets to @IndependentsFBN, use the hashtag #indFBN, and otherwise keep the sartorial critiques right here on this comments thread!

In the agonizing minutes between now and then, enjoy first last night's fascinating discussion about the Arizona discrimination bill that was vetoed by Gov. Jan Brewer just tonight:

… and also an Independents interview from earlier this week with former Federal Communications Commissioner Robert McDowell:

Comments

[Episiarch]

There will be no earrings to critique tonight

Christ, Matt, now that you mentioned it it's not going to be any fun any more. You better not mention us talking about your and Kmele's wardrobes!

[Sevo]

He probably won't have the commie on again either, so we can't gripe when Matt tosses him Larry King-style questions.

[Episiarch]

Oh, I'm pretty sure we can gripe about that for weeks.

[Ted S.]

At least they're wearing clothes.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Thank Christ

[Bam!]

I don't see why Matt couldn't wear earrings tonight. Imagine how they'd dangle while he air drums.

[Sevo]

So you can't get med insurance on the CA O-care site most times, since it doesn't work.
Well, you can get it elsewhere, but courtesy of O-care, it's more expensive!
"The cost of health coverage rises for these Californians"
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/.....270709.php

Yea, a true win-win!

[Steve G]

The zenex.tv link for live streaming seems to no longer work. Is there an alternate floating about? Much grass

[SIV]

http://www.baqiworld.com/2011/.....ness-live/

[NebulousFocus]

thanks

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

absence of main host Kennedy, who's on the emergency DL with an unspeakable disease of some sort.

Must be a staph infection from wearing all those damn earrings!

[Ted S.]

My guess is yeast infection.

[Fist of Etiquette]

My guess it's priapism. You saw how that sword of hers never went down.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

The yeast I make for pizza can get infected?

Who knew?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Infected... with flavor!

[Fist of Etiquette]

So tonight's show is going to preach to me about the dangers of Global Warming and, what was the other thing?

[Fist of Etiquette]

Oh yeah, the dangers of private business owners deciding to which customers they can cater.

[Winston]

Are you referring to something Welch said on a previous show?

[Fist of Etiquette]

YES I MOST CERTAINLY AM.

[Winston]

What did he say?

[Fist of Etiquette]

He said he believed not only that Climate Change exists but that it's manmade. (He stopped short advocating carbon trading or whatever, to his credit.) And he also said he wasn't prepared to allow private business discriminate choosing their clientele. I'm pretty sure that's an accurate paraphrasing of last night's comments. I was devastated.

[Winston]

I know it's sad to see that the jibes against the "cosmotarians" at Reason have some justification.

[SIV]

Only "some"?

Sounds like something a COSMOTARIAN would say ;p

[VG Zaytsev]

Devastated to realize that cosmos really exist?

[Andrew S.]

Will there be pyrotechnics for Kane's entrance into the studio? Please say yes.

[Max Power]

Too bad he couldn't have come on last night to tear that communist in half.

[Episiarch]

If Matt or Kmele were truly cool they'd get into a fake brawl with him, Kaufman/Lawler-style. Or at least somebody should get hit with a folding chair. I mean...come on. ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

[Vulgar Madman]

I want to see how he's been doing since he left the brotherhood of NOD.

[Francisco d Anconia]

INDEPENDENTS ASSEMBLE!

[Bam!]

Assemble it yourself.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Double dumbassemble on you.

[BigT]

THE INDEPENDENTS ... NO ASSEMBLY REQUIRED !!

[Rufus J. Firefly]

Yeah, I'm done with this.

Still waiting for my sniper rifle to off lefties.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

And relax about the comment.

I'm Canadian.

Nothing to worry about.

Yet.

[AlmightyJB]

Knock knock

[Bam!]

I think we need to start sending viewer mail to Cavuto. That was tame.

[General Butt Naked]

Matt looks like Bloody Face.

[Episiarch]

So Matt comes right out of the blocks trying to be as spastic as Kennedy. That might not be the best idea, Matt, unless you have more cocaine than I think you have.

[SIV]

His wife probably brought a load of 'script crank back from the old country.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Is he reading off a teleprompter?

[Winston]

Obama is on the show?

[Jarl ? the booty]

Epi, can you provide links to back this up?

When Google first released that they were going to get into the mobile OS market, their initial spin on it was that they wanted to create an OS that was carrier-independent, so that people could buy any phone they wanted and then pick a carrier, without having the two be closely intertwined like they are now (and were even more so back then). While Android is technically carrier-independent, those noises dried up fast, and the phones still get bundled with a ton of carrier stuff.

As I recall it, Google claimed that it would wrest away from carriers the power to decide what applications and services you ran on your phone, not what handset you used. They succeeded at that task, with the help of Apple. However, I did not pay nearly as much attention to such matters back then as I do now.

[Episiarch]

Nope, it was just something I remembered talking to people about when Google announced a mobile OS. One of the reasons I posted it was to see if anyone else remembered it like I did.

[Jarl ? the booty]

I suspect it is something fanboys and journalists (not mutually exclusive groups) came up with and parroted about.

[mashed potatoes]

Yay! I'm traveling for work and in a hotel that gets Fox business. First time watching. Don't screw it up.

[Bam!]

Greenwald is coming to us live from his bathroom.

[General Butt Naked]

I never woulda thought greenwald would sound like a valley girl.

[Episiarch]

The greenscreen effect on Greenwald is like watching a terrible 80s movie.

[Winston]

a terrible 80s movie.

Like Ghostbusters?

[Rufus J. Firefly]

I still want to punch most of the characters in 'The Big Chill' in the face.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Ze plen, ze plen!

[Episiarch]

So who is Ricardo Montalban and who is Herve Villechaize?

[Winston]

who is Herve Villechaize?

Nick Nack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9SjRccRlbk

[Francisco d Anconia]

Ricardo is off tonight.

[Francisco d Anconia]

They infiltrate online communities?

TULPA!

[Fist of Etiquette]

It's interesting he's outside but there's no wind.

[Episiarch]

There's no wind in Brazil, you dope.

[General Butt Naked]

They got 'im in a pope-dome.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Glenn, your campaign has the momentum of a runaway freight train...

[Episiarch]

You're not scared, Glenn? After what happened to your boyfriend? Well, at least you have brass balls.

[Hyperion]

No, it's not that. If he comes back here, he's stupid, that's all.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Greenwald is going to have a layover in Gitmo.

[kibby]

This seems entirely likely. Can you imagine all the drooling from the true believers?

[Hyperion]

Feinstein, McCain, Graham, and King are probably having a big circle jerk right now just thinking about Greenwald being dumb enough to come here.

[General Butt Naked]

Greenwald seems to really hate Obama.

Which is awesome.

[Winston]

He didn't get the memo that Obama being both TEAM BLUE and black is above criticism.

[Episiarch]

And some nice contempt for the NSA too.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Is Kmele Foster just coming off the set of The Village?

[Episiarch]

His lapel pin is the mark of the beast.

[Fist of Etiquette]

LOOK OUT THERE'S A DRONE COMING UP BEHIND YOU GLENN!

[General Butt Naked]

Stealing jokes from the alt-text, fist?

Classy, real classy.

[Episiarch]

Actually, he writes jokes for Matt, so this is just him stealing his own material back. So sad.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I don't read alt-anythings.

[Bam!]

Sausage fest tonight.

[Francisco d Anconia]

There was just a black helicopter flying behind him.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Told ya so.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Greenwald's thoughts go counter-clockwise down the drain.

[Fist of Etiquette]

WRONG. The press is there to hump a certain leader's leg.

[Episiarch]

Why are there so few journalists with Greenwald's adversarial attitude about the people they cover? Because they are rare.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Cocktail parties.

[Episiarch]

I thought it was because all the adversarial ones join the paparazzi.

[Winston]

They believe in TOP. MEN. and that TEAM BLUE is the party of them. If they criticize TEAM BLUE then people might think that the government should be cut.

[BigT]

Those journalists disappear - one way or another.

[Rufus J. Firefly]

I know. He has earned my respect.

It's even worse in sports. Jesus, they're pussies.

[Episiarch]

Greenwald totally ripped the TEAM RED TEAM BLUE thing off from us. I've lost all respect for him.

[darius404]

+1 Hate Vote.

[Bam!]

I saw that air drum, Matt. It was brief but there.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Uh, Welch, violence against our civil liberties by an oppressive government isn't a punch line.

[Episiarch]

When does Kmele get to host, Matt? YOU'RE HOGGING IT.

[Dweebston]

Matt: HELP ME, JACKET! You're my only hope.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Take off your pants and jacket.

[Mike M.]

Harry Reid: any person who says that he has been laid off, moved from full time to part time work, or lost his existing health care plan because of Obamacare, is a liar.

If the pubbies had any brains at all, his statement would appear prominently in every one of their commercials from now until November. So in other words, it probably won't.

[Winston]

I'm sure the watchdog media will be all over rebutting Reid's comment.

[Dweebston]

How can they spare the airtime when there's immigrants taking jerbs, gheyz sullying the definition of marriage, and terri'sts making phone calls unserveilled?

[Episiarch]

Yeah, that god damned save the children commercial just got muted. If I had any heartstrings to pull it would still be massive overkill.

[Suthenboy]

Same here. Pissed me off badly.

There is absolutely nothing stopping people everywhere from making their own countries livable places, except them.

I was screaming about the goddamn flies lighting on the kids when my wife came to see what the row was about. How hard is fly control? Goddamn fucking backward morons.

[Timon 19]

You'd be surprised. The flies in Turkey in the countryside are ridiculous, for example, and Turkey is, relatively speaking, pretty well off. They can't be stopped. You kill them, and for every one you kill, ten take his place.

[Derpetologist]

Dear The Independents:

Please keep bringing back Jesse the Communist. He spews more bullshit than a herd of cattle after warm coffee enemas.

[Wandering Texan]

Only if the hosts start to bring spiked clubs. Or spiked questions. I don't care which, I just want to see him broken.

[Sevo]

Wandering Texan|2.26.14 @ 9:26PM|#
"Only if the hosts start to bring spiked clubs. Or spiked questions. I don't care which, I just want to see him broken."

YES!
Providing this brain-dead twerp a platform for his propaganda wasn't funny the first time and it hasn't gotten better in repeats.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Perv or creep, which is it?

[Episiarch]

You mean Biden? Both.

[General Butt Naked]

Yes.

[General Butt Naked]

He didn't deny it.

[Episiarch]

Be a little more misogynist, Matt. Jeez. Next crack will be about that time of the month, won't it.

[Fist of Etiquette]

He's not wrong about The View's audience.

[Fist of Etiquette]

What's going on here? Why is this woman allowed to speak uninterrupted?

[Fist of Etiquette]

NOW FOSTER IS GETTING WORDS IN EDGEWISE? WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

[Episiarch]

You guys need to get edgier with your misogynistic and racist humor, dudes. Without Kennedy there it's like you're afraid to be offensive.

[Francisco d Anconia]

PLEAZZZZZZZ RUN!

[Fist of Etiquette]

RHODEZ!!!

[SPG_900]

In a gun control argument on FB, i had an old friend pull the SOMALIA!!1! bullshit. now THAT is a graphic straw-murder.

[General Butt Naked]

Can't we just accept, as a society, that if you got some kids you have to work a shitty job to support 'em?

Look assholes, when you start pumping out rugrats you forfeit the choice to live like a careless childless 20-something chasing a dream. Fucking grow up you pieces of shit.

QUIT FUCKING BREEDING ASSHOLES!

[General Butt Naked]

Place commas where needed in last sentence to confirm to your own views.

[SPG_900]

We cant, as a society. there are more pauls than peters now. everyone is "entitled" to a certain standard of living without effort, dontyaknow?

[SPG_900]

Matter-of-factually, a girl i work with, in my graduatin class, will get a 6000 tax return because she had a child. the whole year the father was recieving unemployment, and I worked twice as many hours as her AND bought a house last year.

[Episiarch]

I would also enjoy seeing a Biden presidency, Kmele, but that's because I enjoy laughing at fools and court jesters, not because I'm worried about confidence in them.

[General Butt Naked]

Regardless of president, the state will not shrink and will most likely grow.

Why not at least get some chuckles out of this train wreck?

[Winston]

You Know Who Else thought a train wreck of a leader would provide chuckles?

[SPG_900]

Hilter?

[SPG_900]

+1 paraplegic state senator

[Fist of Etiquette]

GET CONTROL WELCH.

[Episiarch]

It's out of control! Mayday! Mayday!

Who would have thought that Kennedy was such a natural wrangler.

[Fist of Etiquette]

There needs to be a happy medium between Welch's pushover and Kennedy's inability to let someone finish a thought. Foster?

[Episiarch]

Considering that I've said the show should just mostly be Kmele talking about stuff...no.

[General Butt Naked]

I think they should hire John.

He could call everyone "retard" and then throw a chair.

[Bam!]

Matt guest hosting has shown why Kennedy got the alpha chair.

[kibby]

Matt is quickly realizing how difficult Kennedy's job is in making people shut up.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Gillespie doesn't even rate a green screen.

[SIV]

Is that some skyline from Podunk College-town, Ohio?

[Fist of Etiquette]

It's a mural of some especially terrible dystopia.

[SIV]

So, yes

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Did Daniel Bryan do a run-in yet?

[Episiarch]

Great, Kane hasn't been on yet and I have to leave for tennis in five minutes.

[kibby]

Aww, are Matt & Nick hetero lifemates?

[Winston]

Anything wrong with polygamous gay-marriage?

[darius404]

As long as it doesn't involve more than one goat.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Dish cut off the beginning of Gillespie's segment. Did he compare anyone to Hitler yet?

[kibby]

Yes. You. It was pretty epic, sorry you missed it!

[Fist of Etiquette]

It's probably just this little mustache I've been growing.

[kibby]

It's very chic. Definitely keep that & don't listen to all those people whispering behind your back in public.

[Fist of Etiquette]

The public doesn't see it. I'm growing it above my penis.

[Episiarch]

The level of technology on this show is comparable to the level of technology on Fernwood 2 Night. Nick looks like Max Headroom.

[Winston]

Chuck Swirsky. Freakin' liberal.

[Episiarch]

You could cut the tension between you guys with a knife. I love it.

[Fist of Etiquette]

The Republicans could shut the government down again, but you saw how well that went over with everyone.

[Winston]

So Matt Welch supports more spending?

[General Butt Naked]

Has HnR gotten to the cast?

Muted suits and a mention of catty wardrobe comments.

[Bam!]

Clinton nostalgia? Yeesh.

[Winston]

So when will the Obama nostalgia start? It's not like Nick thought Obama would end racism in America....oh wait.

[BigT]

Clinton was carried along by the dot.com bubble. It had nothing to do with policy, except perhaps welfare reform.

[Winston]

And his triangulation after 1994 and the "peace dividend." And didn't the deficit still go up?

However today is the WOT and the Great Recession so unsurprisingly TEAM BLUE turn out to be statist fucks. And it's not like Clinton has condemned Obama's behavior.

[SIV]

Clinton was carried along by the dot.com bubble.

$10 a barrel oil didn't hurt

[General Butt Naked]

It'll start after we have two presidents that are so terrible that he looks competent by comparison.

Scary, but inevitable.

[Bam!]

Ugh. You're right.

[Winston]

Isn't nostalgia for Bill rather reactionary? I thought today is the libertarian moment?

Why not Nostalgia for FDR and LBJ?

[Ted S.]

In the media, it will start January 20, 2017. In the real world, probably never.

[Fist of Etiquette]

And Welch slams the door.

[General Butt Naked]

Paul Krugman wouldn't say that at all.

Quite the opposite, really.

[BigT]

Kennedy talks too much. Welch talks too little. Kmele talks just right?? Would he be a good host?

[Bobarian]

Or a good baby bear?

[Fist of Etiquette]

That tree he's sitting next to outside that city has very smooth bark.

[Fist of Etiquette]

"Are you going to run if Hillary doesn't?"

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Is Kane the necrophilia guy?

[SIV]

KATIE VICK! KATIE VICK! KATIE VICK!

[Bo Cara Esq.]

Yes!

[darius404]

That was quite.... enthusiastic.

[kibby]

Kmele....what in the hell.

[SIV]

Mary Ruwart!!11

Child porn actor unionz

[General Butt Naked]

Kmele just turned into a 12 year old again.

[Matt Welch]

Again?

[General Butt Naked]

He flipped so easily that I'm sure he's done it before.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Kmele, you know it's not real, right?

[Notorious G.K.C.]

roads

plus I have been able to avoid the toll booth things

[Fist of Etiquette]

New York roads can't hold a candle to the Keystone State's roads as far as pothole's are concerned.

[Hyperion]

There are potholes in Balmer that people disappear into, car and all, and are never seen again.

[General Butt Naked]

Have you been near Century III mall lately?

There are car-sized potholes.

[Fist of Etiquette]

That's handicap parking.

[General Butt Naked]

Oops.

[Fist of Etiquette]

They wasted stimulus money on shovels.

[Hyperion]

Well, which comes first, the shovel or the job?

[Fist of Etiquette]

She's got a hardon for the gas tax.

[kibby]

The Port Authority Art Authority can fix the roads!

[Hyperion]

You guys are all really watching this, aren't you?

I still have a problem watching the teevee much. I've seen the Independents a total of one time, and I don't really remember how that happened. Oh yeah, wifey tempted me to sit on the sofa with her and it was on.

It's these intertoob thingies. It... changes you... can't... watch... the... teevee...

[kibby]

If it means I can avoid homework for an hour, I'm watching.

[Hyperion]

I really want to watch it, I just can't. My mode shifted a long time ago, from finding myself sitting on the sofa in the evenings watching TV, to sitting in my office, in my chair, on the internet.

If my wife wants to watch a movie, or just talk, then I'll sit with her in front of the TV, but I almost never watch the damn thing anymore.

Just like right now, she's not here this week, and I haven't one time watched TV. It's on, I can see it from here. It's background noise. I just don't pay any attention to it.

I downloaded the beta for Final Fantasy XIV on PS4, 2 nights ago, and I still haven't tried it. Just don't like sitting in front of the tube anymore.

Even funnier thing, a lot of the times when I do sit in there in the evening, mostly just because my wife is there, I'll take my laptop with me, and still ignore the teevee.

[Francisco d Anconia]

But, but how do you watch GoT and True Detective?

[Hyperion]

I don't. When people at work are all talking about the newest primetime sitcom or whatever, I don't get involved in the conversation at all. Mostly because I don't have any clue what they are talking about and it doesn't sound interesting.

[darius404]

I don't watch TV either (don't even have one set up in the house), but that's because the computer fulfills all my entertainment needs.

[Fist of Etiquette]

That was like a retelling of Eve and the apple.

[Fist of Etiquette]

GROSS.

[Bam!]

Thank god it wasn't earrings-related.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Kennedy, what kinda stuff are you getting in your eyes?

[Derpetologist]

OT: I was catching up on the F-35 discussion. Here are a few thoughts:

1) The last time a US pilot shot down a foreign fighter was 1999. Do we really need the latest and supposedly greatest?

2) The reason the US has dominated air combat is because of better long range missiles, countermeasures, and radar.

3) If stealth is the issue, wouldn't it make more sense to paint existing planes with RAM and upgrade the countermeasures rather than design a whole new plane?

4) If the goal is to keep enemy planes out, wouldn't it be better and cheaper to build better SAMs?

[Francisco d Anconia]

1. yes
2. wrong
3. it's not AND that's not how it works
4. that isn't the goal

[Derpetologist]

If better tech isn't the reason, why has US done so well in air combat? I know pilots think well of themselves, but I'm pretty sure they would not want to take an F-86 up against a Mig-29.

If stealth isn't the issue, then why spend so much money on a stealthy fighter? Chaff isn't good enough to confuse radar guided missiles?

The goal isn't to keep enemy planes away from ground troops? I realize there are other goals, but shouldn't that one be near the top? The whole reason fighters were invented was to keep enemy bombers and attack aircraft from attacking ground troops.

[Francisco d Anconia]

I'm way too drunk for this, but here goes.

America has done well in air combat because it invests in the entire package. Training, the best platforms and the best weapons. A breach an any one of those, means your opponent will find a way to beat you. You can't say it's just the missile, or it's just the RADAR. It is the whole package and how they are integrated. A 4th generation fighter will lose to a 5th generation fighter pretty much all the time. They are THAT much better.

There is no single thing that makes the F-22 better than the F-15. It's all the things. The RADAR is better and significantly more capable. It's stealthy characteristics allows it to operate in a higher threat environment and enables tactics the F-15 could only dream of. It's data-link capabilities are far superior allowing 4 to attack as one. It's increased flight performance allows it to go farther, fight longer and generally out-turn anything else made if the fight happens to get in close. The F-15 and F-22 aren't even in the same category.

Stealth is a small piece of the advanced capability. It let's you fly places you otherwise couldn't and defeat some threats you otherwise couldn't. It isn't a silver bullet. And RAM is a very small part of stealth. Chaff will not defeat all RADAR missiles and is iffy even against old stuff.

[Francisco d Anconia]

As far as SAMS go, how do you position your SAMs deep in enemy territory to protect your strikers? Air to air fighters were invented to provide air superiority which allows freedom of action on the ground and in the air. Air to ground fighters were invented to destroy critical nodes deep within enemy territory AND to protect troops on the ground. SAMs do nothing for you when your behind enemy lines.

[Derpetologist]

In the 1999 duel with the Yugoslav Air Force, the reason they failed to shoot down any NATO aircraft was because their equipment malfunctioned.

Isn't likely that many Russian and Chinese fighters are also junk? And in any case, we already have more fighters than both of them put together.

[Derpetologist]

"When the NATO attack finally came, on the evening hours of 24 March 1999, the MiGs went into action, being scrambled one after the other. The two fighters that took off from Nis and were vectored to intercept targets over southern Serbia and Kosovo, were swiftly dealth with by NATO fighters: the MiG-29 flown by Maj. Dragan Ilic was damaged - either by an AIM-120 fired from a Dutch F-16AM fighters, or by a Serbian SA-6 SAM, in a case of fratricide fire. The second MiG that scrambled from the same airfield was flown by Maj. Ilijo Arizanov, was shot down by an USAF F-15C. The pair from Batajnica experienced only a slightly better fate: first to launch was Maj. Nebojsa Nikolic, who was shot down shortly after take off. Maj. Ljubisa Kulacin evaded several missiles fired at him while fighting to bring his malfunctioning systems back in working order. Eventually realizing that he could not do anything, and with Batajnica AB under a severe attack, he diverted to Belgrade IAP, and landed safely. Kulacin's experience was not much different to that of his three other colleagues, all of which experienced immense problems with weapons and navigational systems on their aircraft: on the 18112, flown by Maj. Arizanov, both the radio and SPO-15 malfunctioned; on 18104, flown by Maj. Ilic, the radar failed; on 18111, flown by Maj. Nikolic, both the radar and the SN-29 missile guidance systems were inoperative, and apparently the SPO-15 also did not function properly."

[Derpetologist]

link

[Francisco d Anconia]

They did shoot down a NATO fighter.

And yes, there were not more because they were not good at operating and maintaining their equipment. You think we should count on that?

Many Russian and Chinese fighters are junk, but their 4th and 5th generation systems are on par with ours. And superior numbers are meaningless. The F-15 pilots I know had no problem going 8 on 1 when they were up against a 4th generation foe.

I was working an acquisition job during the first few yeas of the F-22 being fielded. I was getting updates regularly. When I left that job in 06, after thousands of mock engagements between F-15s and F-22s, the F-15 had managed to kill exactly 1 F-22, and it was a lucky shot.

These systems are not "nice to have" shit. They are the difference between winning with minimal losses on our side, and losing with significant losses.

[Derpetologist]

Note that that plane was shot down by SAMs, not fighters.

The Russians and the Chinese have a handful of 5th generation fighter prototypes each. What is the big threat?

[Francisco d Anconia]

Yes, it was a SAM. Our 4th generation fighters are significantly better than their 4th generation fighters. Our 4th generation fighters ARE NOT better than their 5th generation fighters.

The Russians are fielding the T-50 and the Chinese the J-20. Do you propose we scrap the F-22 in favor of more F-15s? Since it takes 20 years to field a new fighter, both nations (and anyone they sell it to) will dominate the skies and therefor the battlefield for the next 20+ years.

[Timon 19]

I'm pretty sure Boeing retooled their lines and couldn't spin back up on F-15s even if they wanted to. Not without massive, massive cost.

[Francisco d Anconia]

They were still making a few Strike Eagles for the Koreans in 05. I think that line is still open, but the cost of bringing it up to be able to replace the current fleet would be astronomical. But all the F-22s are made, so that isn't going to happen. Same with the F-35. The lines are up and running. They aren't going to scrap it in favor of more Vipers at this point. To do so would be asinine.

[Timon 19]

Oh, I know about the Vipers. They're done being built except as license builds in Turkey, Japan, and maybe Italy (?). Possibly a few are rolling out as part of...umm...other considerations for other nations.

F-35s are it, for the most part.

[Timon 19]

Then again, according to this in December from Reuters, they're still going to push them out onesy-twosy for a while: http://www.reuters.com/article.....3T20131214

That bit at the end about BAE winning some upgrade contracts definitely happened last I heard.

[Francisco d Anconia]

What's your background Timon?

[Timon 19]

Simulation & training.

That's about all the more I'll say here in the open.

[Timon 19]

I've heard the same from former F-15 drivers and F-16 drivers working the same events. The 22's basically have a turkey shoot every time.

[Timon 19]

Just responding to say that Francisco pretty much nailed it all.

Reliance on chaff is a really, really bad idea. As it is now, you will hit bingo with expendables in a jiffy using conservative programs against common threats. The point is to not need them.

CAS is certainly a huge consideration, but with better sensors and a variety of standoff weapons, you don't even need to get to the 'C' part of CAS.

Also, all the tech in the world isn't going to do shit for you except make you a very expensive smoking crater if you don't take training very, very seriously.

[Derpetologist]

Remember the bomber gap? Turns out it was bullshit.

Remember the missile gap? Turns out it was bullshit too.

Now they say there is a fighter gap. I say bullshit to that.

Every US aircraft destroyed in combat in the past 30 years was destroyed by ground fire, not fighters. So why the rush for better fighters?

[Timon 19]

You realize that the F-35 (and the F-16, and the F-18, for that matter) have as one among several roles as that of "fighter" in the traditional sense, right?

The F/A-18 is really the only modern aircraft that is even remotely designated in a way reflective of its roles, and even then, it's not totally descriptive.

[Timon 19]

And by the way...I really, really am totally cool with spending a whole lot less on everything in the military. On the technical stuff, though, you're just kind of poking around in the dark.

[Derpetologist]

I freely admit to being an armchair general and appreciate criticism from people in-the-know.

I think this clip from the Pentagon Wars is the best demonstration of why I am skeptical of the military's perennial demand for new equipment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

[Timon 19]

Air combat is so fundamentally different from ground combat, it's not even in the same universe. The clip, while amusing, is not an apt analogy in any way.

Multi-role aircraft with the ridiculous number of unbelievably good sensors they have now coupled with standoff weapons (and even regular old LGBs) do not in any way resemble glorified troop carriers with a gun on top.

[Derpetologist]

The point is that the military has a long track record of spending oodles of money on:

1) stuff it doesn't really need (The Bradley)

and/or

2) Stuff that doesn't work (the early M-16 and the Osprey)

They also have a long track record of fudging tests to make their toys look better than what they are.

And they get very upset when people point out their expensive toys are useless- see Billy Mitchell.

I'm sure the F-35 is very good at shooting down other jets. I'm not sure the need exists.

[Francisco d Anconia]

The F-35s mission isn't to shoot down other jets. It's an air to ground system.

[Derpetologist]

Francisco d Anconia|2.27.14 @ 12:48AM|#

The F-35s mission isn't to shoot down other jets. It's an air to ground system.

******************************

I thought it was a 5th generation fighter. That's why it has the F. We already have several excellent attack aircraft. Why another one?

[Timon 19]

5th generation fighters are characterized by their multi-role capability among many other things. Its MISSION is not air superiority, but that doesn't mean it can't perform the fighter role very well (given first-look, first-shot, first-kill capability, in particular).

The A-10 is ancient. The A-6 is ancient-er and almost solely used in SEAD roles as jammers (the EA-6) anymore. Strike Eagles are about 30 years old and probably will be prone to the same fuselage cracks that grounded the A-D models for a while.

The Super Hornet is great, but is 1. Navy/Marines only, and 2. still solidly 4th gen, no matter how hard anyone wishes differently.

The F-16 is about it. It's really a versatile little aircraft. It's also getting old.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Yes, as Timon pointed out earlier, all our fighters are designated with an F. There are air to air fighters, that have limited (if any) air to ground capability, and there are air to ground fighters (like the F-16 and F-35) which have some (mostly defensive) air to air capability. Only the A-10, which has almost NO air to air capability, has an "A" designation.

The F-35 is a 5th generation a-g platform designed to replace the aging F-16. It's primary mission is to blow shit up on the ground. It is significantly more survivable and vastly more lethal than the F-16 (which is btw, falling apart).

[JeremyR]

The thing is, the F-22 is a fighter. It's whole purpose is air superiority.

The F-35 is not meant for fighting other aircraft. It's meant to be a multi-role aircraft and it does none of those roles particularly well, despite the huge cost. It's just a boondoggle.

[Francisco d Anconia]

Please present your alternative to the F-35.

[Timon 19]

It doesn't do them particularly well? Maybe wait until they actually go to anything other than testing squadrons and start participating in Red Flag and other events before coming to those conclusions.

[Timon 19]

Jesus...I didn't realize Turkey was planning on buying 100 of them! Damn.

[Derpetologist]

Here's my alternative:

Cancel the F-35. Tell the Air Force to come up with another way to shoot down 5th generation fighters that doesn't cost $800 billion.

I'm pretty sure for a few billion, you could design a SAM that could shoot down an F-35. I'm even more sure the Russians and the Chinese are quietly working on just such a system.

[Timon 19]

You really are fixated on SAMs. That's a pretty shitty idea.

[Derpetologist]

I fixate on SAMs because they work & they're cheap. They're also responsible for just about every combat loss of US aircraft in the past 30 years.

The Air Force is fixated on fighters because they like toys. Understandable, but not a wise defense policy.

Knights were cool too, but they have no place in modern war. Manned aircraft are heading the same way.

[Timon 19]

The Air Force is fixated on fighters because they like toys. Understandable, but not a wise defense policy.

They may be "like toys", but they are supremely useful toys. We haven't even scratched the surface in this discussion as to their usefulness.

Your analogies keep failing. Manned aircraft will eventually go away, no doubt. But UAVs cannot reliably do the things that piloted aircraft can. They can do a lot of it, and in a persistence role, they're far and away superior to manned aircraft. That's not nearly all of the story, though.

[Francisco d Anconia]

You aren't listening Derp. The F-35s purpose isn't to shoot down fighters. It's to blow up ground targets.

So cancel a program that's nearly complete (100 already built), so you can spend billions more reopening the assembly lines of an inferior platform that's less survivable against modern threats and vastly less capable?

[Derpetologist]

From Lockheed:

"The Fighter Demonstration Center (FDC) is a private Lockheed Martin facility designed and equipped to educate visitors aboutthe two 5th Generation fighter aircraft, the F-35 Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter) and F-22 Raptor. Various groups within the Department of Defense, as well as congressional members and staffs, often use the facility for discussions and demonstrations related to these 5th Generation fighters. In addition to domestic customers, the FDC also hosts various international groups involved in the Joint Strike Fighter program."

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/.....s/fdc.html

It's a fighter that can do other stuff.

Why reopen assembly lines? Aren't there spare parts to fix the planes we have?

[Timon 19]

Are you just trolling now? Because it really looks like it. You're not even trying anymore.

[Derpetologist]

I am trying to figure out why FdA is saying the F-35 is not meant to be fighter when that's plastered all over Lockheed's website.

Why are we building new fighter planes when are closest rivals can barely keep their junk airworthy?

Shouldn't they be more worried about things like the Tor and the Pantsir?

The military seems pretty nervous about them.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us.....e-problem/

[Timon 19]

Jesus, you're dense. "Fighter" doesn't mean just air-air engagements anymore. I don't give a fuck what Lockheed plasters on their website. The services, especially the Air Force, are the ones who make the fucking designations. THEY are the ones who call everything "fighter" these days. It's not the manufacturer. That said, everyone and their dog IN the services knows that ever since the F-16, fighter doesn't mean "just shoot down planes". We've had nearly 40 years of this.

Hell, some of the guys I've talked to in the AF/ANG who are intimately familiar with the capabilities of the platform constantly make fun of the AF for trying to call it a fighter, because its meant to do more than that by design. The fighter role is de-emphasized, but it is capable of filling it. How many different ways do we have to say it?

As far as air defense systems, the F-35 is, in part, DESIGNED TO DEAL WITH THAT INCREASED THREAT. The whole concern is that enforcing a no-fly zone with legacy 4th gen. aircraft may not cut it. There's your fucking need right there! In your own article!

[Francisco d Anconia]

It IS a fighter derp. It's an air to ground fighter.

The F-22 and F-35 were designed (literally) to complement each other. They are NOT interchangeable. The F-22 was designed as an air supremacy fighter. It's job is to clear the sky of bad guys.

The F-35 is an air to ground fighter, designed to blow up ground targets. It has some limited air to air capability, but it's not a primary function and is significantly LESS capable in that arena.

[Francisco d Anconia]

You can't fix air-frames. They wear out. They crack. Like a car, there is only so long you can keep them going. We've had F-15s have wings come off in flight. The F-16 isn't far behind. They've been patched up to the limits of technology. Most have been flying for double and triple their design specifications.

[Derpetologist]

I saw the clarifications on the fighter thing. I did not know the AF calls things fighters even when they are not really meant to be fighters.

If our planes are falling apart, doesn't that mean the Russian and Chinese planes will be in even worse shape? They spend a fraction of what we do, so they have to take shortcuts.

If the Russian are building super advanced air defense systems, why on earth does the Air Force want to risk sending pilots into that?

[Francisco d Anconia]

If our planes are falling apart, doesn't that mean the Russian and Chinese planes will be in even worse shape?

That's part of the reason they are replacing them with 5th generation systems.

If the Russian are building super advanced air defense systems, why on earth does the Air Force want to risk sending pilots into that?

Depending on the situation, you may need to. You certainly don't want to. And it may not be the Russians. The Russians and the Chinese are NOTORIOUS for selling/giving their shit to other nations, making it likely, we'll face those threats inside the next acquisition cycle.

[Dweebston]

1) The goal is defense spending.
2) The goal is defense spending.
3) The goal is defense spending.
4) The goal is defense spending.

[Sidd Finch]

Is FBN on most basic cable plans or do you guys pay extra to get talking head channels?

[Hyperion]

I think it's on basic cable. But I'm not sure. If you have Comcast, they will figure out a way to fuck you over, no matter what. But I think it's on the more basic packages.

[Wandering Texan]

Its on Verizon's second most expensive TV package. I'm paying 20 bucks more a month for this. Worth it.

[Hyperion]

Well, like I said, I wouldn't know, I pay for one of the most expensive packages so my wife can watch what she wants to. So we have lots of stuff no one will ever watch.

Do they live stream this? I don't think so, but that would be cool... come to think of it.. FUCK, I just figured out that I can live stream it!

[Hyperion]

Sooo, maybe next time, I will watch.

[Sidd Finch]

stream link?

[Hyperion]

If you have Comcast, just login to your account and click on the 'Watch TV' tab. There are quite a few channels and the Fox channels just happen to be included. I didn't even realize that until just a few minutes ago.

[Sidd Finch]

Thanks. If I don't pay for I doubt they'll let me watch online, but I'll check it out.

[Hyperion]

Yeah, I would think it's probably only channels you pay for that show up there, but I swear there's a couple of channels there that I don't think I have ever seen on my TV. But then again, after what I said about how much attention I pay to the TV, you can probably ignore that.

But check it out for sure, can't hurt to try.

[Sidd Finch]

I was just playing around on the Comcast site. Apparently it's not on the 80 channel plan here, but is other places. So yea, screwed by Comcast.

[Hyperion]

The problem is when they have a (government assisted) monopoly over a specific area. If you are in that area, they will fuck you to no end. And their customer service is somewhere between abysmal and unacceptable in any form at all. When they have any competition, it gets a little better. They have the worst customer service in the history of business.

[Sidd Finch]

Yea, I've had Comcast several different times and every time I'm reminded that cable companies can get worse.

[SIV]

Look upthread, I posted one.

[Sidd Finch]

thanks!

[General Butt Naked]

Matt's gonna get pink eye from those pens.

[Fist of Etiquette]

They're telling on each other.

[kibby]

Oh my heck, the boys acting like eight year olds. This is glorious.

[Fist of Etiquette]

AH! Lou Dobbs.

[Fist of Etiquette]

I'm going to be honest with you. I found tonight's show acceptable.

[Matt Welch]

SHHHH!!! They might be reading this!!!

[Fist of Etiquette]

Oh, Kennedy can't read this. Her eyes have lupus or something.

[Almanian!]

Concur. I Twittered that they didn't really miss Kennedy. SHHHHHHHHHHH!

But it's truuuuuuuuuuuuuuue....

[Hyperion]

The one time that I watched it, Kennedy was the best thing on the show.

Penn Jillette was a guest on that night, but he was unbelievably boring for Penn Jillette, who I typically find very entertaining.

[Ted S.]

Now that's worthy of Two Minutes' Hate!

[Suthenboy]

I missed Kennedy. I love Kennedy. Sharp as a tack and just the right amount of prickly, plus she doesnt give a shit who she sticks barbs into.

[Ted S.]

That'll never show up in Two Minutes' Hate.

[Suthenboy]

I was very troubled by the FCC plans to put political officers in every news room ( that is who they are no matter what the apparatchiks say ), very troubled. Not just by the plan but by the tepid resistance to it. Granted it was enough to set the plan back, but it was not the screaming from the rooftops it should have been.

Now we have the top of the leadership, Reid, Sebellius, and Biden telling outright lies. Not just lies, but easily verified falsehoods. It is as if they have no fear of being called on their bullshit. We seem to be creeping ever further into Chavez/Ghaddafi/Jong Un territory.

Perhaps one episode of The Independants could be a parade of people who lost their jobs, healthcare, fulltime employment, people who dont appreciate being freed from 'joblock', occasionally punctuated with video of lying liars telling their lies.

Call them on their bullshit and slap them the fuck down.

[Wandering Texan]

It would just be another Koch-funded lie.

[Hyperion]

I'm more concerned that there's tepid resistance to militarized goons on our streets beating and killing people every day over even the slightest provocation, or even none at all, (respect my authoritah!).

So, yeah, I was watching that, but we have bigger problems.

[Suthenboy]

Maybe add in an insurance guy, backlit so you cant see his face, telling us how many people he had to shitcan because of obamacare. Same for some employer.

[Derpetologist]

The next time Jesse the Commy is on, they should read him this Kundera quote:

"Anyone who thinks that the Communist regimes of Central Europe are exclusively the work of criminals is overlooking a basic truth: The criminal regimes were made not by criminals but by enthusiasts convinced they had discovered the only road to paradise. They defended that road so valiantly that they were forced to execute many people. Later it became clear that there was no paradise, that the enthusiasts were therefore murderers."

[Derpetologist]

cont'd

"hen everyone took to shouting at the Communists: You're the ones responsible for our country's misfortunes (it had grown poor and desolate), for its loss of independence (it had fallen into the hands of the Russians), for its judicial murders!

And the accused responded: We didn't know! We were deceived! We were true believers! Deep in our hearts we are innocent!

In the end, the dispute narrowed down to a single question: Did they really not know or were they merely making believe?

Tomas followed the dispute closely (as did his ten million fellow Czechs) and was of the opinion that while there had definitely been Communists who were not completely unaware of the atrocities (they could not have been ignorant of the horrors that had been perpetuated and were still being perpetuated in postrevolutionary Russia), it was probably that the majority of the Communists had not in fact known of them.

But, he said to himself, whether they knew or didn't know is not the main issue; the main issue is whether a man is innocent because he didn't know. Is a fool on the throne relieved of all responsibility merely because he is a fool?"

[Sevo]

"Is a fool on the throne relieved of all responsibility merely because he is a fool?"

How about a cite on that?

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

So...what did I miss?

[Notorious G.K.C.]

Matt Welch's earrings.

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

Did he also wear a loud, eclectic dress? Or is he keeping that for his weekends?

[Sevo]

Grand Moff Serious Man|2.26.14 @ 10:54PM|#
"So...what did I miss?"

They didn't mug the commie.

[kibby]

Our delightful company, you slacker.

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

I value In N Out just a little more than you. But you surpass the company of my real-world friends, so there's that.

[kibby]

Mmmm...I already ate & just thinking of In N Out is making me hungry again.

Look, kid, either your real-world friends are all socially-awkward monsters or you have a hugely inflated opinion of the H&R crew.

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

You're not even 30, you don't get to call me kid! And my friends are libertarian, so that goes without saying. Although they exist, which is more than I can say about at least half the posters here.

And yes, In N Out in of itself means California is worthy of being redeemed and saved.

[Anonymous Coward]

What if we airlifted In N Out to Nevada? Are we then free to plunge CA into the sea?

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

Yes, but only because Arizona would have beach front land. Costa del Serious, Serious Springs....Kibbyberg? KIBBYBERG?

[MJGreen]

Holy fuck! Anyone watch the Americans? That was pretty brutal.

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

Watching it right now. That cold opening was brutal. Can't see how it gets worse.

Great show.

[MJGreen]

Yeah, a strong indication that they're not fucking around this season. But I still love those crazy commits.

[MJGreen]

Commies. First time posting on an iPad, with its stupid autocorrect.

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

Also more nudity than I recall last season.

[Winston]

When did Warty start producing TV shows?

[MJGreen]

I think FX adopted a greater nudity quota last year. I remember last season's Justified starting with a fully nude woman seen from behind, which was pretty out of place compared to the prior 3 seasons. This year, Amy Smart has shown a hell of a lot. The channel's gotten a lot bolder.

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

What the fuckity-fuck? 'Girls' star Adam Driver reportedly close to being cast as main villain in new Star Wars film

Girls star Adam Driver is in final negotiations to star as the villain in Star Wars: Episode VII.

Sources confirm to THR that Driver is nearing a deal for the undisclosed role.

The role may be the one that Michael Fassbender met for late last year and for which Joel Kinnaman may have tested, according to Star Wars sources.

There is a high level of secrecy surrounding the project, and insiders believe that most of the top casting is quite far along. (The secrecy on Star Wars rivals that of Warners' Batman-Superman movie, and it has created an intense fervor among those following it over even minute developments. Nondisclosure pacts and secret circles of trust are the order of the day for actors under consideration until there is a signed deal.)

The movie is due to start shooting in London in the spring, and some actors will be required to begin physical and Jedi training in advance of the shoot.

It's expected that Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher will return, although no official announcements have been made.

Does that guy look like someone that could scare you?

[Winston]

Appearing on "Girls" is scary enough.

[Anonymous Coward]

And you shall be called Darth...Douche.

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

To be fair, I've heard he's not a bad actor and is actually one of the best things about that show.

Plus he's done sex scenes with naked Lena Dunham, so maybe the guy deserves a major career break.

But Darth Hipster needs to be well-written and unique to be a suitable replacement for Vader.

[MJGreen]

I could only make it through the first season of Girls (shotgunned it over a couple days), and he was definitely the best part of the show. Basically the only good thing. And he was good in Llewyn Davis.

I guess, shave his fucking goatee, bulk him up a bit more, and he could be pretty intimidating.

[MJGreen]

I love Michael Fassbender, but I'd hate to see him as the villain. It's been done, and we're seeing the same faces across these blockbuster franchises. The Human Torch is now Captain America, Zoe Saldana is playing two alien women (and plays a large role in a third scifi franchise). We've seen Fassbender as the scifi villain (and will continue to do so, as I think Prometheus 2 is a go), I want to see someone else. I'm sure it's just my fondness for how the original trilogy was made, but I think lesser-known faces work for Star Wars. The only big name in the prequels that worked was McGregor, because he's awesome and does a decent Guinness impression. The universe is loved enough that big names aren't needed.

Kinnamen could be interesting. Driver could be interesting, too, if they do it right. And hey, the villain may be hidden behind layers of make-up and prosthetics. I spent all of Star Trek wondering if the bad guy was Eric Bana or just someone who looked like him.

[Grand Moff Serious Man]

I'd like to see Irish actress Saoirse Ronan get a leading role, she was fantastic in The Lovely Bones and The Way Back.

Fassbender would be ideal for a wise mentor role. But if they have Luke, Leia, and Han back for the new one they could fill that role in a passing the torch kind of way.

[~Knarf Yenrab~]

as I think Prometheus 2 is a go

How? Why? Howhy?

The universe is loved enough that big names aren't needed.

They're not just unneeded, they're a distraction. Having Sam Jackson--used to such great effect in Tarantino and DH3--popping up in the prequels to trudge around soullessly was an awful thing for Star Wars fans and Sam Jackson fans alike. Even having characters from the previous trilogies returning strikes me as a bad idea. Better to let the new cast and new characters stand on their own in the 21st century rather than reminding us of how good the first two movies were when Carter was president.

Plus, if Abrams casts all the main characters with B stars like he did Star Trek, at least we won't have to groan at Harrison Ford running around with giant, puffy hands for half an hour.