Washington Post gets around to admitting what everyone on the libertarian side was shouting from the beginning: that the Obama administration's 2009 "cash for clunkers program" (giveaway government money for people to destroy their old cars) was a dumb idea.
From the Post today:
A new analysis from the Brookings Institution's Ted Gayer and Emily Parker found that the program was fairly inefficient as economic stimulus and mostly just pulled forward auto sales that would have happened anyway. It did cut greenhouse-gas emissions a bit — the equivalent of taking up to 5 million cars off the road for a year — but at a steep cost.
Tony Fischer Photography / Foter.com / CC BY
Vehicle sales did rise during that period. But a detailed study suggests that consumers just bought some cars a bit earlier than they otherwise would have. Cumulative purchases over the following year were basically unchanged…
A clever 2011 analysis from Resources for the Future compared U.S. car sales under the program with those in Canada during the same time frame. Those researchers argued that about 45 percent of cash-for-clunker vouchers went to consumers who would have bought new cars anyway.
Gayer and Parker estimate that pulling these vehicle sales forward probably boosted GDP by about $2 billion and created around 2,050 jobs. That means the program cost about $1.4 million per job created — far less effective than most other conventional fiscal stimulus measures…
More importantly, and cutting through the econometric bullshit about "shifting purchases forward and backward" or whatever, the cash for clunkers program paid people to destroy useful things. We should really think twice about the supposed economic benefits of destroying useful things.
The "economy" shouldn't really be seen as being about shifting money tokens around where the government would like to see them go or "creating jobs" to replace useful things we decided to destroy, but about meeting human needs and desires on planet earth. Thus, cash for clunkers was a crummy idea no matter how much it "cost" to "create each job" when the cost was expended wrecking useful things. (Big surprise: trying to get rid of cheap old cars made old cars more expensive.)
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Yeah, not like the automakers knew what was happening. We built ahead for it, ramped back down, met the (briefly) increased "need", and waited for the actual "recovery" and sustained increase in sales that started the next year (and hasn't abated...yet).
Also, as a lover and restorer of junk cars, it's painful that they forced the dealers to destroy the engines of these cars, so they'd be useless as anything other than scrap (or a candidate for an engine swap if the body was good).
How much more energy does it take to build a new Pious or Fit or Fiesta than to rehad a beater? Dunno. I know it financially makes no sense in most cases. $1000 Jeep Cherokee I got has over 220K miles on it - still doesn't burn oil, 4WD works "like a Dickensian orphan" (hah!), and I put $300 and a couple hours of my labor into all-new brakes.
Or I could have traded it in for about what I have in it, and take 5 years of payments on something that won't pay me back for...no....no....never mind.
It was just governmental theft and wealth transfer of the usual variety except that the cover was flimsier than what they normally come up with. Cash-for-Clunkers really felt like they were mailing it in. I mean, if you're going to pick my pocket at least give me a proper nut-rub as a distraction.
Or I could have traded it in for about what I have in it, and take 5 years of payments on something that won't pay me back for...no....no....never mind.
I said in a thread yesterday, a math teacher I know is having her second kid, so she had to go out and buy a brand new minivan.
I thought 72 months was the longest you could go on a car loan for some reason, but she financed over 75!
2.2% for 36 months. I think the total interest was 3.5% over the lifetime of the loan. Shit, the government liars expect my cash to be worth less than that 3 years from now. Although, IMO, that's how you get yourself in trouble. for an extra $3500 I could get a brand new CRV with a 7 year or 100k mile, bumper-to-bumper warranty, versus one that someone else had put 35k miles on at the end of its warranty life.
Since my wife had her previous car for 9 years, and only traded it in because we needed a back seat, I think we're going to be okay. Unless we have a middle child with two Irish twins.
Yeah, I think that destroying lots of perfectly good used cars was probably the worst thing about the program. Not only does it make life more difficult for people who like to restore old cars (or just keep them running), it fucks over poor people who might have been able to buy a used vehicle to start a business (or just get to work), people who own salvage yards and, well, everyone.
And I don't buy the CO2 emissions thing either if you take into account the resources used to produce a new car.
Gayer and Parker estimate that pulling these vehicle sales forward probably boosted GDP by about $2 billion and created around 2,050 jobs.
This sounds wrong to me. Unless, of course, they cut off the time period of their analysis at the end of the artificial spike in demand. If you include the period that demand was pulled out of, why would there be any increase in GDP or jobs at all? Doesn't "pulled demand forward" mean the same number of cars was sold over the longer time frame than would have been sold without the program.
"f you include the period that demand was pulled out of, why would there be any increase in GDP or jobs at all? Doesn't "pulled demand forward" mean the same number of cars was sold over the longer time frame than would have been sold without the program."
Same number of cars sold yes but remember what happened to the clunkers. They were chopped up and sold for scrap.
Thanks to the way that GDP is calculated a used car purchase does not add to GDP as it is just an asset transfer. A new car purchased however does.
Thanks to the "clunkers" being chopped up in several classes of cars used cars are now more expensive than new cars creating a long term overhang of some car sales being shifted from used to new.
The wonderful thing about this calculation is there is no accounting for the cars destroyed in the GDP calculation so in the official statistics everything looks rosy.
Basically they created a few new jobs for the UAW at the cost of making it much more expensive for poor people to get a car.
Cash For Clunkers seems like a relic of a more innocent time, now that we're living through Obamacare, Lois Lerner's IRS, Benghazi-gate, the NSA scandal, etc. etc. etc.
Washington Post gets around to admitting what everyone on the libertarian side was shouting from the beginning: that the Obama administration's 2009 "cash for clunkers program" (giveaway government money for people to destroy their old cars) was a dumb idea.
When did we schedule the vote to rename ourselves to the Cassandratarians? I lost my day planner.
It is actually sugar coating it to call it the "libertarian side" of it because that implies there is some contrary point of view that is not insane. It is like calling the people who told you cutting your arm off was a bad idea, "the risk adverse side of it".
It was a libertarian side. It was the rational side.
Yeah it was a terrible program from any perspective except that of immediate personal benefit to those that took advantage of it and some car manufacturers.
It still is just astounding to think that we lived the broken windows fallacy. Our government really thought that the way to get wealthier was to destroy valuable assets. I am as cynical as anyone. But I still sometimes can't quite get my mind around that. It really is one of those "as God is my witness I thought turkeys could fly" moments.
If cancelled policies are the windows, and the new building code insists on double glazed lead-free nitrogen-filled environmentally sensitive glass, then yes, Obamacare shoud count.
It's the same government that thinks that stealing money from people to pay bureaucrats at the EPA or in Certificate of Need programs or (name counterproductive agency) to actively destroy value is a good idea.
What's even worse is that CfC was a relatively insignificant broken window in terms of the overall economy once you compare it to the broken windows from Obamacare.
I remember being livid at the idiocy that promoted CfC and thinking "how could they be so stupid?"
I know, but I'm thinking in a more statistically sound way.
Prices for used cars have been rising for a long time, primarily because people tend to keep their cars for longer now. Forty years ago, it was common for middle-class people to get a new car every year or two. That led to a huge supply of recent-model used cars.
Nowadays, it seems like a huge percentage of the used cars you see for sale are fleet vehicles that had the crap driven out of them in just a couple years. And they're still selling for $10k+
The Post estimated that it cost 1.4M$ per job created but they forgot to factor in the value of the cars destroyed. ~680,000 eligible transactions (cars destroyed) at, say 1000$ per car, would add ~680$M to the 3B$ price tag already mentioned. That's 1.8M$ per job created.
As bad ideas go, this one was positively Homerian (Simpsonian?).
Broken windows!
If they were dirty, does breaking them make the unseen seen? Or just obscene?
Yes but it got a lot of Obama stickers of the streets.
Full disclosure, I didn't come up with that.
I thought the mileage and weight requirements ruled out all Lexus models.
And Piuses!
Speaking of bumper stickers
This morning I dropped my kids off at school and in front of me was an "I'm the NRA and I vote" bumper sticker...
on a Prius
Only in Massachusetts would you see something like that.
I've seen similar stickers on a Prius in Pennsylvania.
Quakertown.
Yeah, not like the automakers knew what was happening. We built ahead for it, ramped back down, met the (briefly) increased "need", and waited for the actual "recovery" and sustained increase in sales that started the next year (and hasn't abated...yet).
It was a total success. Do you realize how many people were able to get a discount off MSRP?
Also, as a lover and restorer of junk cars, it's painful that they forced the dealers to destroy the engines of these cars, so they'd be useless as anything other than scrap (or a candidate for an engine swap if the body was good).
How much more energy does it take to build a new Pious or Fit or Fiesta than to rehad a beater? Dunno. I know it financially makes no sense in most cases. $1000 Jeep Cherokee I got has over 220K miles on it - still doesn't burn oil, 4WD works "like a Dickensian orphan" (hah!), and I put $300 and a couple hours of my labor into all-new brakes.
Or I could have traded it in for about what I have in it, and take 5 years of payments on something that won't pay me back for...no....no....never mind.
Dipshits.
Yeah I remember seeing someone had traded in a 70s maserati that had to be junked.
Oh, '85 biturbo, ouch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiORhKnwXF4
It was just governmental theft and wealth transfer of the usual variety except that the cover was flimsier than what they normally come up with. Cash-for-Clunkers really felt like they were mailing it in. I mean, if you're going to pick my pocket at least give me a proper nut-rub as a distraction.
I mean, if you're going to pick my pocket at least give me a proper nut-rub as a distraction.
This might disqualify you from trick-or-treating in Tulsa.
We won't know for sure until Reason does another two articles on the subject, at least.
Or I could have traded it in for about what I have in it, and take 5 years of payments on something that won't pay me back for...no....no....never mind.
I said in a thread yesterday, a math teacher I know is having her second kid, so she had to go out and buy a brand new minivan.
I thought 72 months was the longest you could go on a car loan for some reason, but she financed over 75!
2.2% for 36 months. I think the total interest was 3.5% over the lifetime of the loan. Shit, the government liars expect my cash to be worth less than that 3 years from now. Although, IMO, that's how you get yourself in trouble. for an extra $3500 I could get a brand new CRV with a 7 year or 100k mile, bumper-to-bumper warranty, versus one that someone else had put 35k miles on at the end of its warranty life.
Since my wife had her previous car for 9 years, and only traded it in because we needed a back seat, I think we're going to be okay. Unless we have a middle child with two Irish twins.
and ever since, I swear used car prices had gone up.
And not to mention the increased destruction of my favorite full-frame Chevy Caprice and Buick Roadmaster.
Yeah, I think that destroying lots of perfectly good used cars was probably the worst thing about the program. Not only does it make life more difficult for people who like to restore old cars (or just keep them running), it fucks over poor people who might have been able to buy a used vehicle to start a business (or just get to work), people who own salvage yards and, well, everyone.
And I don't buy the CO2 emissions thing either if you take into account the resources used to produce a new car.
Too bad these progressive media outlets can't "figure this out" until way, way after the election. I wonder why that might be?
and created around 2,050 jobs.
Is there any metric or attempt to study how many jobs were lost due to CfC?
Unseen opportunity costs? Probably some crazy economist from the Austrian school.
Gayer and Parker estimate that pulling these vehicle sales forward probably boosted GDP by about $2 billion and created around 2,050 jobs.
This sounds wrong to me. Unless, of course, they cut off the time period of their analysis at the end of the artificial spike in demand. If you include the period that demand was pulled out of, why would there be any increase in GDP or jobs at all? Doesn't "pulled demand forward" mean the same number of cars was sold over the longer time frame than would have been sold without the program.
Probably there was a hit to the auto repair, oil change, yada yada sector that nobody's interested in examining, either.
That's why I asked what I asked above. There has to be a reasonable metric for jobs lost.
Absolutely. The "clunkers" were going to be replaced eventually.
There's no way to analyze it, but it'd be interesting to find out the effect this had on prices for used cars. Talking about hurting the poor...
"f you include the period that demand was pulled out of, why would there be any increase in GDP or jobs at all? Doesn't "pulled demand forward" mean the same number of cars was sold over the longer time frame than would have been sold without the program."
Same number of cars sold yes but remember what happened to the clunkers. They were chopped up and sold for scrap.
Thanks to the way that GDP is calculated a used car purchase does not add to GDP as it is just an asset transfer. A new car purchased however does.
Thanks to the "clunkers" being chopped up in several classes of cars used cars are now more expensive than new cars creating a long term overhang of some car sales being shifted from used to new.
The wonderful thing about this calculation is there is no accounting for the cars destroyed in the GDP calculation so in the official statistics everything looks rosy.
Basically they created a few new jobs for the UAW at the cost of making it much more expensive for poor people to get a car.
Cash For Clunkers seems like a relic of a more innocent time, now that we're living through Obamacare, Lois Lerner's IRS, Benghazi-gate, the NSA scandal, etc. etc. etc.
I believe that an American diplomat killed in a terrorist attack is only something that Christfags care about.
Washington Post gets around to admitting what everyone on the libertarian side was shouting from the beginning: that the Obama administration's 2009 "cash for clunkers program" (giveaway government money for people to destroy their old cars) was a dumb idea.
When did we schedule the vote to rename ourselves to the Cassandratarians? I lost my day planner.
It is actually sugar coating it to call it the "libertarian side" of it because that implies there is some contrary point of view that is not insane. It is like calling the people who told you cutting your arm off was a bad idea, "the risk adverse side of it".
It was a libertarian side. It was the rational side.
Yeah it was a terrible program from any perspective except that of immediate personal benefit to those that took advantage of it and some car manufacturers.
It still is just astounding to think that we lived the broken windows fallacy. Our government really thought that the way to get wealthier was to destroy valuable assets. I am as cynical as anyone. But I still sometimes can't quite get my mind around that. It really is one of those "as God is my witness I thought turkeys could fly" moments.
In politics though, the question isn't whether or not it worked or was effective, but who's paying attention?
Why do you hate glassblowers and glaziers?
But seriously, I consider us lucky it was only a $3B program targeted at used cars and not something much grander and far stupider.
Like Obamacare?
Is Obamacare an example of the broken window fallacy? It's more of a straight-up market intervention.
Nah, it's just an example of something grander and stupider.
If cancelled policies are the windows, and the new building code insists on double glazed lead-free nitrogen-filled environmentally sensitive glass, then yes, Obamacare shoud count.
*should
No, it's a broken window at least in how it was passed and sold...
Look Health Insurance for poor people who can't afford it
Unseen - those who end up paying for it
Like bulldozing "excess" housing inventory, for example?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....s_business
http://business.time.com/2011/.....foreclose/
It's the same government that thinks that stealing money from people to pay bureaucrats at the EPA or in Certificate of Need programs or (name counterproductive agency) to actively destroy value is a good idea.
It's a great thing if you're in the gang or a friend or relative of a gang member.
I know you are probably talking abotu the other kind of turkey, but turkeys can fly and it is hilarious when they do.
I'm guessing you never watched WKRP.
What's even worse is that CfC was a relatively insignificant broken window in terms of the overall economy once you compare it to the broken windows from Obamacare.
I remember being livid at the idiocy that promoted CfC and thinking "how could they be so stupid?"
I don't what I expected.
It's almost inconceivable that it happened. I remember first hearing about it and thinking "wait, no...really?".
And it really happened.
That has pretty much sumed up the Obama presidency for me.
Jesus H Christ, who's the 11 yr old girl at the Bikini Barista joint?
http://www.kirotv.com/news/new.....tan/nbcwS/
fairly inefficient
That's one way of putting it.
There's no way to analyze it, but it'd be interesting to find out the effect this had on prices for used cars.
Check the want ads.
I know, but I'm thinking in a more statistically sound way.
Prices for used cars have been rising for a long time, primarily because people tend to keep their cars for longer now. Forty years ago, it was common for middle-class people to get a new car every year or two. That led to a huge supply of recent-model used cars.
Nowadays, it seems like a huge percentage of the used cars you see for sale are fleet vehicles that had the crap driven out of them in just a couple years. And they're still selling for $10k+
The Post estimated that it cost 1.4M$ per job created but they forgot to factor in the value of the cars destroyed. ~680,000 eligible transactions (cars destroyed) at, say 1000$ per car, would add ~680$M to the 3B$ price tag already mentioned. That's 1.8M$ per job created.
As bad ideas go, this one was positively Homerian (Simpsonian?).