Woman Forced Into Treatment Challenges Wisconsin Law That Allows Detention of Pregnant Drug Users
The New York Times highlights the case of Alicia Beltran, a pregnant Wisconsin woman who was locked up because she admitted to a physician's assistant that she had had been hooked on Percocet (oxycodone). Beltran had stopped using Percocet with help from a substitute opiate, Suboxone (buprenorphine), and she was no longer using either drug. The physician's assistant nevertheless recommended that she start taking Suboxone again. After Beltran declined, social workers and cops got involved, the upshot being a court order sending her to Casa Clare, a drug treatment center in Appleton, where she was confined until October 4. Beltran, who is currently about 29 weeks into her pregnancy, also faces a charge of negligence that could theaten her parental rights after her baby is born.
All this was authorized by a 1997 Wisconsin law that allows detention and forced treatment of any pregnant woman who "habitually lacks self-control in the use of alcohol beverages, controlled substances or controlled substance analogs, exhibited to a severe degree, to the extent that there is a substantial risk that the physical health of the unborn child, and of the child when born, will be seriously affected or endangered unless the expectant mother receives prompt and adequate treatment for that habitual lack of self-control." In Beltran's case, the expectant mother was abstinent, a fact confirmed by urine tests, so it is hard to see in what sense she was experiencing a "habitual lack of self-control." Furthermore, the drug that the government wanted her to take, buprenorphine, seems to pose a greater hazard to fetuses than oxycodone, the drug to which she had been addicted.
The FDA has assigned buprenorphine to pregnancy category C, meaning "animal reproduction studies have shown an adverse effect on the fetus and there are no adequate and well-controlled studies in humans, but potential benefits may warrant use of the drug in pregnant women despite potential risks." Oxycodone, by contrast, is in pregancy category B, meaning "animal reproduction studies have failed to demonstrate a risk to the fetus and there are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women OR animal studies have shown an adverse effect, but adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women have failed to demonstrate a risk to the fetus in any trimester." So even if Beltran had not stopped taking Percocet, the existence of "a substantial risk" is highly questionable.
In an application for a writ of habeas corpus that they filed last month, Beltran's lawyers argue that Wisconsin's fetus-protection statute is unconstitutionally vague, inviting just this sort of arbitrary enforcement. They also argue that Beltran's detention violated her rights under the the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth, and 14th Amendments. One of Beltran's lawyers, Lynne Paltrow, executive director of National Advocates for Pregnant Women (NAPW), tells the Times, "This is what happens when laws give officials the authority to treat fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses as if they are already completely separate from the pregnant woman." At the hearing that led to Beltran's confinement, she had no lawyer, but the fetus inside of her did. "I didn't know unborn children had lawyers," she says. "I said, 'Where's my lawyer?'"
Although Beltran has been released, Paltrow and their colleagues are seeking a federal injunction blocking enforcement of the law under which she was detained. NAPW says this is the first federal challenge to statutes like Wisconsin's. According to the Times, "Wisconsin is one of four states, along with Minnesota, Oklahoma and South Dakota, with laws specifically granting authorities the power to confine pregnant women for substance abuse. But many other states use civil-confinement, child-protection or assorted criminal laws to force women into treatment programs or punish them for taking drugs." In an article published last January by the Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law, Paltrow and Jeanne Flavin, president of NAPW's board, report that their organization has identified more than 400 cases between 1975 and 2005 where pregnancy was a critical factor leading to civil or criminal consequences such as arrest, detention, involuntary treatment, and enhanced jail or prison sentences. Such interventions are not only unjust but probably counterproductive, increasing risks to unborn children by scaring drug users away from prenatal care.
Some state courts have rejected aspects of the crackdown on women who use drugs during pregnancy. In 2008, for example, the South Carolina Supreme Court unanimously overturned the homicide conviction of a cocaine user whose baby was stillborn. Last February the New Jersey Supreme Court unanimously ruled that using illegal drugs during pregnancy does not by itself amount to child abuse or neglect under state law. By contrast, the Alabama Supreme Court has ruled that child endangerment laws can be applied at any point after conception.
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Free abortions.
It take a village to horribly deform a fetus.
*takes.
I like Scotch. Scotch scotch scotch.
http://www.parade.com/wp-conte.....ys-ftr.jpg
I like gin. Gin gin gin.
The link for my username may be of interest to you.
You better not be pregnant.
Bourbon, bourbon, bourbon.
Laphroaig, laphroaig, laphroaig.
I was going to post "I like RUM. Rum, rum, rum" last night, but I didn't. You know why? Because I was drunk, like all you slackers should have been.
Whether women should be free to harm the babies they're carrying is a separate issue, but whether someone can be detained without a lawyer shouldn't even be an issue.
Lynne Paltrow, executive director of National Advocates for Pregnant Women (NAPW), tells the Times, "This is what happens when laws give officials the authority to treat fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses as if they are already completely separate from the pregnant woman." At the hearing that led to Beltran's confinement, she had no lawyer, but the fetus inside of her did. "I didn't know unborn children had lawyers," she says. "I said, 'Where's my lawyer?'"
Is there any objection, then, to laws that add an additional charge of homicide when a person murders a pregnant woman or deliberately kills her unborn child?
Such laws implicitly support the position that an unborn child has rights.
I think it's rather explicit that a fetus has Rights. The idea that it does not is the idea that we can define what is, or is not, human by any random metric we like. Sickle Cell Syndrome? That object is granite perhaps, but in no way human. Savvy?
But that's a far different thing than stating that the government should step in and intercede. By example, I assert that I have a Right to defend myself. Does the existence of that Right require that the government station a policeman with me at all time to defend me? Who then does the government send to defend me from my government protector?
Just because we hold notions of Rights, or of human dignity, is no guarantee that the having a neutral bystander come in with a billyclub won't be the fastest way to trample those Rights.
I know it's poor game to wish ill on taxpayers, but I can't help but hope this woman extracts a college fund for her child when this is done. It's too much to hope that those involved are charged for conspiracy to kidnap, etc.
So refusing to go back on drugs means you cannot control your drug use?
I think the piss-poor assumption that got her all these problems is that she *was* using Percocet and *must* still be using it since she's *not* using Suboxone.
Because junkies *never* ever try to get off the shit and get their lives back together.
who was locked up because she admitted to a physician's assistant that she had had been hooked on Percocet
I have little sympathy for the stupid but "health care professionals" should have to read people their Miranda rights before taking a confession medical history.
I imagine most rational individuals would assume it would be a normal thing to tell your doctor about any medications(prescription or otherwise) you're on during a doctor'a visit. This doesn't qualify her as stupid in my book.
rational
You misspelled "retarded". Never, ever admit illegal activity (or "incorrect" like unsecured firearms around children) to an agent of the state. There is no confidentiality.
This. You assume confidentiality when you talk to HCPs. Fuckers gonna sell you down the river, they should at least have to inform you they are cunts.
If you think that unborn children have the same rights as anyone else, which many Libertarians does (including the Pauls), then this is child abuse
What's child abuse? The part where she's not on drugs?
Don't undo drugs!
Arrested if you do, arrested if you don't.
It's never too late to abort, just don't take the drugz...
If you think that unborn children have the same rights as anyone else, which many Libertarians does [sic]...
Lol. The Pauls would be a pretty much exhaustive list, and they'd be run out of libertopia on a rail for it. Around here you'll get called every part of a man or beast for suggesting it.
...then this is child abuse
Does not follow. The woman quit drugs and didn't want to get back on a drug that was more dangerous than the drug she quit. Her doctor is an asshole. The police are assholes. And it's unimaginable how failing to take drugs qualifies morally or philosophically as child abuse, or how it even matches the language of the statute.
Nonsense. The reason why the LP does not take a stance on the matter is because it acknowledges there are libertarian arguments on both sides.
"After all, it is sometimes said that libertarianism involves being "pro-choice about everything," but that is not necessarily so. True, if it is denied that a fetus is fully human or a person, then the state would seem to have no grounds for interfering with the decision to abort. However, if a fetus is a human being or a person, then it is plausible to regard it also as a self-owner, in which case there may arguably be at least some instances in which the state is required to stop an abortion (since an abortion would, on this view, be a violation of the self-owning fetus's right to life). Accordingly, while some libertarians are "pro-choice", others are "pro-life"?the difference stemming from a disagreement over the moral status of the fetus."
I understand both sides of the argument from the libertarian perspective. It's just that the "pro-life" argument has virtually no traction in libertarian circles. It's a joke. When it isn't outright belittled it's dismissed as a personal choice issue.
The LP's non-stance on the matter (Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter) reflects that; it's a polite way of taking a pro-choice position without casting any moral judgment on the opposing viewpoint.
Sounds like some serious busines to me dude.
http://www.AnonBliss.tk
OT: (and this story is several days old, so it may have already made it onto another thread)
Atheist volunteers turned away from Christian soup kitchen.
I don't believe it!
Agnostic volunteers might be turned away from Christian soup kitchen.
It may or not be true, regardless I'm not going to care.
I see what you did there.
I had faith someone would.
Maybe he didn't actually see what you did there, and was just saying he did to seem cool.
I mean, can you really prove or disprove that he did?
I BELIEVE!
Ok, so we can't get late nite links, ever, apparently. So at least we get some late nite articles which we can pretend are late nite links. So, do those late nite articles always have to be the most meh articles of the day?
Sorry, this article is not without merit, that's not what I'm trying to say. But for fucks sake, it's Friday night, I am here alone, just me and my beer. I can't find a damn game that I want to play even though I have 300 of them and there are 100k more to buy, and there isn't shit on the damn TV, not that that is not normal.
Can someone please hijack this thread and make it interesting? It's not my turn, damnit.
Reason let you down?
Here ya go, Hyperion.
Americans who were recipients of means-tested government benefits in 2011 outnumbered year-round full-time workers, according to data released this month by the Census Bureau.
Perhaps *that* will help the beer go down more easily.
Saw that one earlier today, and wasn't too surprised. We knew it was going to happen, but I think the statists overplayed their hands and let it happen too quickly.
The delicate balance is going to be broken and then there will be real trouble.
The Louisiana EBT snafu is just a small taste of things to come.
I hope so.
Which is why the feds are so anxious to disarm us all, why we can't let it happen, and why DHS is buying so much ammunition and local authorities are getting military gear. Scary times are ahead.
Have you ever played nethack?
Have you watched the "Mr. Plinkett" reviews of the Star Wars Prequels?
Have you ever scanned tvtropes.org?
Snopes.com?
None of that sounds good. I feel like Vivian on the young ones, right before he ruins the game.
Seriously, have you watched the Mr. Plinket reviews?
Just try the first five minutes...
They're almost as long as the movies. Highly entertaining and surprisingly educational (the reviewer makes independent films.
Nope. Thanks for the link.
And after you finish his review, be sure to read the 108 page rebuttal by a Star Wars nerd for the ultimate time waster.
and the rebuttal of the rebuttal...
Fascist pigs arrest, strip, and humiliate woman for unpaid parking ticket... Chikun soup for the soul..
the jail does sometimes allow people to pay fines for traffic tickets when they arrive at the jail, ... those who have the ability to pay the full amount as soon a law enforcement officers brings them to the jail.
Serious question: May one pay by credit card?
Debit card or cashiers check are gladly accepted, cash preferred (wink wink).
WIC should pay women's traffic fines, 'cause this is just more RethugliKKKans teabigoted war on womenz...
LNL reminds me of a Hawaiian restaurant chain.
LAD makes me think of waifish orphans sent to fetch my papers, brush my top hats, iron and starch my coat tails, polish my monocle and silver cane topper, and extract precious rare earth minerals from conflict regions on my behalf.
Which one do you think is more H&R appropriate?
I'm going with orphans and monocles.
I'm told that Cheney's mechanical heart is powered by the souls of dead orphans... The details remain classified.
Who told you that?
It was Sebelius, wasn't it?
False! j.i.m. Industries conclusively proved in 2005 that orphans have no soul. They're soul-identical to gingers, domesticated cats and some varieties of Arizonan cactus.
It was all a clever ruse...
To be fair, he does draw his power from the life essence of orphans, but it's incorrect to refer to that essence as a "soul" j.i.m. Industries used "bleak pneuma" although we have yet to fully unravel its mysteries.
I take great offense to that. Cats have souls!
Prove it!...
I thought that it was Rummys evil deathclaw that was powered by the souls of dead orphans who were sacrificed to the Gawd of Korporashun by the Kochtopus. I have a confused.
I thought that it was Rummys evil deathclaw that was powered by the souls of dead orphans who were sacrificed to the Gawd of Korporashun by the Kochtopus. I have a confused.
Fucking squirrels! Does reasonable banish squirrels?
Rummy and Cheney are merely alter-ego personalities of the schizophrenic Kochtopus?... like "meat-puppets".
Time for my pound of flesh!
"The details remain classified."
Not to terrorists!
Links After Dark it is.
Hah, if you can make it work, Jesse, like I said before, name it whatever you like.
H&R Up...all night.
Check out Warframe or Path of Exile - both really good F2P games.
I was just checking out path of exile. I love RPGs, but I can't play any game that has that old school isometric overhead view. I'm strictly a first or 3rd person player, like Skyrim or Fallout NV.
Its an 'Action' RPG - like Diablo/2 not anything like an RPG like Skyrim or Fallout.
Skyrim and Fallout NV are both action RPGs. The diff is that they are 3rd or 1st person, like an FPS. I can't do that overhead isometric view, I don't get any sense of immersion from the gameplay.
AM I THE ONLY ONE AROUND HERE who preferred FO3 to NV?
You can watch SF idjits try to convince themselves and others that 'rent control' isn't a major cause of very expensive rents:
"Rents soaring across region"
http://www.sfgate.com/realesta.....924282.php
In fact, one is particularly amusing:
..."guess you haven't ever rented in an area that didn't have rent control. I have and the rents went up and up and up and up ~ had to move so many times I ended up owning practically nothing because the rents kept increasing! Not a good way to have any sort of "community" or a stable living space!"
This regarding an article about how SF rents keep going up and up and up.
Aww, other people are using their property how they like and that inconveniences him and upsets his world.
Poor baby.
Odd... I saw no mention of hipster douche-baggery at all...
It's in the comments, along with the claim that rent-controlled apartments are "very few", ignoring all those taken off the market 'cause of rent control.
Watchmen is on TNT. It's both better and worse then when I watched it the first time.
the Alabama Supreme Court has ruled that child endangerment laws can be applied at any point after conception.
Because even Great-Grandpa is still a child at heart.
The death panels will take care of letting Great-Grandpa down one last time. You snappers have to endure the wheel for a little longer...
They're still looking for an eco-friendly gas to put Grandpa down with. (C-O) and (H-C-N) have a carbon footprint, and may contribute to AGW. I think, for now, the death panels are just gonna finish grandpa off by pushing him down a flight of stairs...
H2S
Dude... S-O-X & N-O-X.. that makes, like.. acid rain.
No man, its, like, recyclable. Just pump a tiny bit in, you can put so many patients on the 'LCP' for just a little bit.
Why can't he go off the cliff with grandma?
I don't know if any of you know this guy, but AP reporter Matt Lee is currently the only person at that organization who is willing to hold the Obama administration's feet to the fire. Unsurprisingly, they put him on the State Department detail instead of letting him question Obama or Carney. He's still absolutely stupendous when he starts butchering some State Department spokesman though.
Seriously, the State Department official that he's going after in this video gets so pissed. About 2 minutes in I thought she was going to start screaming at him.
President Obama keeps his word when he says things? WTF? Is she that damn ignorant or just a pathological liar like the one she speaks of?
She's got a job answering questions from reporters. Of course she'll say her bosses are great, regardless of her personal opinions.
I've worked customer service before. My company would sometimes legitimately fuck up. In those instances, I'd mentally side with the customer, but I couldn't just say 'Oh yeah, this is our fault.'
When you're paid to do a job for an organization, sometimes you have to do things you don't like. I'm sure there are people doing these shit press jobs in Washington who know their employers slime but can't admit it or they'd be fired.
Well, since I have been working for, directly and indirectly, organizations and evil corporations for a few decades now, I know all of that. But really, at least for me, there is a time when you have to draw a moral line and say, I have to find another way to make money. These people have absolutely no morals at all, no ethics, they are everything that is wrong with this country.
I think that libertarians biggest weakness, politically, is that we have ethics and morals. We have to figure out how to use the progs lowlife tactics against them(sort of a fighting fire with fire thing) while preserving our ethics and keeping the high ground on holding truth and logic on our side. We have the intelligence advantage to do it. The problem with libertarians is that getting us organized is like herding cats.
Like herding cats...
Hah, that's good.
I'm sure there are people doing these shit press jobs in Washington who know their employers slime but can't admit it or they'd be fired because they have no principles.
FIFY
It's dangerous off the plantation... there thar be dragons.
Is it only a filament of my imagernashun, or does Alan Grayson have an extremely punchable face?
What it would be like to tapcon his tongue to his chin...
How long until DHS raids Matt Lee's place?
Libertarians usually maintain that even a 29 week old fetus should be killed if it would make the mother's life more convenient. But are you really arguing that she should be able to torture the fetus for months, make it deformed and in constant pain, with a significant chance of death after it is born? In this case the drug wouldn't have done that, and so this is the case you use. But these laws were meant to stop crack addicts, and I wholeheartedly support that. If crack addict women do not go into treatment voluntarily, they should be charged with a crime.
"I wholeheartedly support that. If crack addict women do not go into treatment voluntarily, they should be charged with a crime."
Fuck off, slaver.
I think you're missing the part where this particular woman admitted that she'd had drug problems in the past but is currently abstinent and there is no evidence that she is abusing drugs. How a law is 'meant' is irrelevant. A law should be crafted so that someone who admits they used to be a drug addict but who is currently abstinent will not be forced into a treatment they don't need. At the very least this law should be made clearer so that things like this don't happen.
You've clearly missed some of the abortion shitfights that occur in the comments here. I can assure you, there is no position on abortion that libertarians 'usually' take. It's pretty fucking contentious around here.
There was even a gay abortion thread.
So do you support repealing these laws or making them better? I support making them better.
The default libertarian position seems to support abortion, even late term abortion. Can you name a Reason writer who opposes it?
Fuck off, slaver.
I want to make slaves out of crack addicts. I can almost feel their pain......
And that is, uh, well, uh...
Fuck off, slaver.
How often do they write about abortion? I don't even know that there have been many articles here that were pro or anti-abortion.
Regardless, Reason is not the magic arbiter of all that is libertarian. I'm sure the Paleolibertarians at Rockwell.com would have a different view of abortion than many Reason staffers.
Nice goal post moving, by the way. You start by saying libertarians believe something, and when called out, you say 'well, Reason writers support it!' As if the 12 people writing for this magazine are the equivalent of all libertarians.
Reason.com. The Cato Institute. The Koch Brothers Committee on Public Enlightenment. The Libertarian Party. All support abortion. Libertarians support abortion in the same way that conservatives oppose it. That is, most(at least among the leadership) support it.
..."The Koch Brothers"...
OH, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!
Abortion, or the right to self determination?
The right to self determination (unless one is in an antepartum situation, in which case it's open season)
Gary Johnson is opposed to abortion once the fetus is viable and signed a bill banning late term abortion.
Rand Paul is pro-life. So is Ron Paul.
Andrew Napolitano (who does contribute to this site) is pro-life.
There is literally an organization called Libertarians for Life.
I'm pro-Fife.
This simply is not true. Libertarians are very divided on the subject. It is a very difficult issue.
If you are talking about a group who universally supports even late term abortions, you have us confused with progressives or feminists.
Because Libertarians, IMHO, hold both the NAP and individual liberty(the ability to do what you want with your own body) very dear, it's difficult. I don't want to get into another abortion thread here, and so this is my last comment about this, today.
This simply is not true. Libertarians are very divided on the subject.
Eh, not so much. The vast majority of libertarians support abortion unconditionally. A smaller portion wouldn't want to see it made illegal even if they don't personally support it (the Rockwellians probably fall into this category). There's an infinitesimally small minority of what you'd call "pro-life" libertarians. And they mostly aren't true Scotsmen.
The crack baby panic was a propaganda-fueled myth.
There are any number of environmental factors that correlate to poor life outcomes just as much as drug use by a pregnant mother does.
When I'm allowed to stroll through welfare motels with a machine-gun, wiping out white trash moms and selling their infants to infertile MIT professors, we can talk again about involuntary medical treatment for former drug addicts.
I just remembered that I downloaded chrome today so I could get the reasonable extension.
Now I have to figure out what I have to do with this thing. The page did load a lot faster, and no annoying script errors...
It's worth it, if just to see Epi's avatar.
"Such interventions are not only unjust but probably counterproductive, increasing risks to unborn children by scaring drug users away from prenatal care. "
Moral cowardice is what that sounds like.
How so?
Because 'Murrican says so.
Good catch!
You can play center field!
I'm not sure this is American. It could be. I think I'll need to wait for him to say something about Mexicans or women to be sure.
OK.
The pitch up-thread proposed throwing women in the slammer for dope; not one of Murkin's normal tropes.
He might not be but he's a random commenter that shows up late and moralizes about libertarians. Maybe he's just trying something new?
He(she) should try decoupage, or underwater basket weaving instead...
Frum: How Ted Cruz could become president
In the painful aftermath of 2014, many Democrats were ready to hear that the party had been defeated because President Obama had been too cautious in his policies and too remote in his style. As Obamacare stumbled from implementation difficulty to implementation difficulty, they remembered that the program they really wanted was Medicare for all. They seethed at the way Obama had submitted to Republican demands that budget balancing take precedence over job creation. And whatever happened to the administration's promises on climate change?
Democrats liked Hillary personally. But they could see that a Clinton nomination implied a course correction to the right from an administration they already condemned as too conservative. And so, even as the front-runner led the fundraising race through 2015, Iowa and New Hampshire were filling with volunteers canvassing for Elizabeth Warren and her message: "She's in it to win it. I'm in it for you."
So Frum thinks Cruz could outmaneuver Rand, take down Christie, and beat a far-left Hillary.
I prefer him in the Senate...
I can't imagine Cruz getting that much support from other Republicans since he's said to be hard to work with.
Rand seems to have much better networking skills and I think he's a more logical choice to link the Tea Party with the more traditional elements of the GOP.
Cruz is apparently kind of a dick. Then again, if other politicians hate you, then it's possible that you're actually some kind of saint.
Yeah, but it's one thing to be hated for refusing to go along with the Party First bullshit, but another to be hated because you refuse to cooperate or find common ground.
Is Cruz the kind of person that would work with Cory Booker on mandatory minimum reform or Ron Wyden on NSA and drone legislation?
We have yet to see. That's a very good question. His voting record so far, is stellar, but I'm not convinced.
And it's exactly what you just brought up that is what we need to see, before I am convinced.
I've gotten pretty thrashed about here for questioning him, but I have to stick by my skepticism, until proven wrong.
What worries me about Cruz is that he's got many of the same demagogue qualities that had me skeptical about Obama when he was running in 2008. People seemed obsessed with him before he'd actually accomplished anything, he seems to love the spot light and love the attention a little more than I'm comfortable with, and his speaking and debate abilities seem a bit overrated.
Given that I was skeptical of Obama for the same reason and ended up being proven completely right, that makes me worry that Cruz might just be conservative Obama.
He has a lot to prove.
Rand seems to have much better networking skills and I think he's a more logical choice to link the Tea Party with the more traditional elements of the GOP.
Yes. But the neo-con Israel-firsters who control a lot of the evangelical movement would never tolerate Rand.
Scott Walker will be their compromise...
This is actually rather good for a leftist publication, recognizing some patterns they aren't supposed to recognize, such as the importance of "down-market white males." I think Hilary will easily kill off a leftist challenger, she's got the SWPL vote, and, fueled by corporate money, she will buy off enough of the Black and hispanic leaders to prevent a minority-lead insurgency. The republicans will run Cruz or Christie or another mainstream conservative,(Paul will be a "message candidate" in the primaries) and they will do just as bad among the White working class as they did last time, because their message of capitalism doesn't appeal to them. Basically it will be a repeat of 2016, and Clinton will win.
Okay, it's American.
Because I mentioned the White working class? That is the base of the Republican party.
No, because you mentioned the white working class in service to that bizarre racial-socialism you're always pedaling.
The fact that you said Hilary Clinton is going to 'buy' black and Hispanic voters whereas the noble white men can be 'convinced' also proves that you're American.
I don't think you're going to fool anyone when you show up spouting your racially tinged Marxism in the way that only you do.
I said she was going to buy the leadership. I never used the word "convince." What racially tinged Marxism? I support capitalism, I was simply saying it doesn't appeal much to the working class.(Of any race) Not that I don't support it, which was apparently how you read it.
And yet the white working class voted for Romney, an iconic capitalist, in record numbers, and they did so because Democrats openly hate on white people. Capitalism is a part of the American spirit, the white working class doesn't have a problem with it, in fact they like it in principle. Stealing a few dollars from some rich people doesn't appeal to them, especially when they see disproportionate amounts of that money being handed out to minorities.
Oh ye of little faith!
---sniff, sniff---
Someone else wanna smell this pile? It seems as if it might have be alive recently and then you smell "This is actually rather good for a leftist publication", which suggests the maggots are really active.
What leftist publication? Did I miss something?
The Daily Beast
oh-em-gee, Grimm was crazy
I'm sad now though, because I want MOAR.
Ooh is it good? I'm catching up on Person of Interest right now.
There were a couple issues but overall it was good.
Also, no homo, but I would totally let Sasha Roiz f**k me in the ass if he asked nicely enough.
That's reasonable enough. Everyone gets a freebie, but you have to fill out paperwork if you end up hooking up with Ed Quinn from Eureka as well.
If that happens though I'm gonna need you to start publishing a newsletter, to which I'll subscribe.
but you have to fill out paperwork if you end up hooking up with Ed Quinn from Eureka as well
Too hairy. That would require an even more serious "no homo".
Too hairy?
He's got a tiny bit of scruffyness on him, but not much else.
Oh that's a very nice picture to stumble into. I'll be in my bunk.
I'm glad someone appreciated it.
This is why we need more lady libertarians.
No spoilers, I'm behind this season. Although I hear it is more comical than in the past.
Huh. This answers some questions, raises others...
Shepard Smith has an office romance with a 26-year-old male staffer.
I approve of Shep's taste in men.
Isn't his gayness the worst kept secret in broadcast journalism now that Anderson Cooper is out?
It was a secret?
All of the Fox talking heads are sort of... you don't know what you're seeing. Most all of them are total assholes.
O'reilly has went full on statist, almost progressive. I was changing channels a couple of nights ago, and when I came to Fox, I stopped for a moment because he was interviewing Joe Manchin about the healthcare law. From what I gathered, O'reilly is in love with the ACA and thinks that most Americans want it. I never could stand that guy, but now he's no less than a fucking admitted prog, like McCain.
I sort of liked O'Reilly until I read the first sentence of his first book, which was something along the lines of: "You'll never get rich." I wrote him off then and there, even though he's probably right about that.
I liked O'Reilly back in the day because he made liberals angry just by the mention of his name.
I never cared for his populism.
British Basketball Commentary
Amazing giant ant colony
Goddamn it I thought it was Them!
Way to let me down. Again.
Collectivism works! We could have the life of these ants, if only we believed! Well, until someone poured concrete on us...
I'm a devoted follower of Aynt Rand.
Just what makes that little old ant think he'll move that rubber tree plant?
The Atlantic: Progressives depressed that progressive policies aren't wanted
Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York gave a passionate presentation of her five-point agenda to advance the standing of women and children, from universal pre-kindergarten ("something so obvious, so clear!") to paid family leave and a hike in the minimum wage. The proposals, she said, were so commonsensical, "It's surprising these ideas are not part of the dominant political dialogue today."
Brown's speech was a doozy, a vivid portrait of frustrated liberals' fever-dream bizarro world. He boasted of the way he'd won public passage of a series of government-reform and tax-raising ballot initiatives. He spoke of protecting undocumented immigrants from harassment and giving them rights and driver's licenses. He talked about raising the minimum wage, tackling climate change, reducing the prison population, and running a health-care-exchange website that's enrolling people by the tens of thousands?all while righting the state's once-disastrous finances. Californians, Brown speculated, are progressive because the state's beautiful landscapes make them "spiritual." "How can these people in Washington not rise to the occasion?" he implored.
Poor progs, they've convinced themselves California really is working.
Awww, proggies has a sad. Maybe I will change my mind about them... Ok, no, I hate them.
LOL! You want to know the best evidence that progressives are wrong? Virtually every statistic you can look at shows that California is in terrible shape. All of them.
Unemployment rate: 8.9%. They have been above the national average every month for 20 years.
Massive pension difficulties. Net out-migration from a state that is so gorgeous no one should ever want to leave. The highest poverty rate in the country.
All of these statistics are readily available. The fact that liberals are trying to claim as a success a state that is among the worst off in the country tells you that they don't have many successes to their names.
Don't you dare tell the truth about my state!
It's nice that gay people can get married and they've eased up on the illegals, but it's pretty audacious for Governor Moonbeam to thinly veil the structural problems with pension debt and funding with accounting tricks and then declare victory for progressive policies.
I suppose that's what happens when you've got zero competition and no worries from the opposition party.
Still the funniest thing ever.
That time Bill Maher claimed California is starting to boom because they don't have the Tea Party.
They are totally delusional. That video was from September 28th. What happened on September 20th? Statistics came in that showed California's unemployment rate rising to 8.9%.
Eight days after California's unemployment rate rose for the second straight month, Bill Maher claimed that we should all be impressed by their economy. It would be laughable if the willful ignorance were not so frightening.
Shut up Tea Goon!
Bill Maher has the intellect of a smart-ass 17 year old.
Why do you have such a low opinion of smart-ass 17 year olds?
And all those people who fled CA are still going to vote proggie. Case in point, my aunt and uncle who retired in NM after many years in Anaheim. The problem with CA is prop 13 taking sweet tax revenue away from the schools, you know.
A recent poll shows one in six married women won't let their hubby see them naked. Ever.
Well, it's the UK, after all
It's probably the men's own fault.
FTW? Who the fuck wants a wife that they can't see naked? I'm canceling that order before it ships.
Kiwi hipster report
I take it she's not looking for a boyfriend.
Brick, where did you get a hand-grenade?
It's not often that a swap site transaction results in the evacuation of an apartment house. But then again, how often is one of the objects being traded a live tank shell?
Austrian state broadcaster ORF says the shell was on offer as a dummy. It says police had to clear a Vienna apartment house of its residents and put up road blocks after establishing that it was in fact a fully functioning explosive.
Thursday's report said police were called to examine the shell by its new owner shortly after she had exchanged two bottles of wine and a picture frame for it on an online swap site.
BRF said the shell's previous owner had used it as a door stopper.
The report says both women face unspecified criminal charges.
They should have purchased it through a shell company.
That one time when Frank Sinatra told George Michael to man-up:
[removed][removed]
The Chairman of the Board.
Some people in England can't sleep because off all the noisy fish sex.
That's no way to talk about British women.
Ugh, water? Never touch the stuff. Fish fuck in it you know.
Fish fuck in it...
plate o' shrimp
What the fish do in it may be the least of their problems.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-e.....n-22479216
I'm drinking from a box of wine and I feel fine!
I'm classy, I like my wine in cans.
Is that like tang or koolaid or something? Do you just add water? I mean, really, I dunno. I like beer from bottles, although it does make your trash heavier, it seems to taste better. And I hate milk in cartons, it's so much better in plastic...
There's a bladder man!
prima donna.
Crippled man selflessly hobbles into burning home to save a case of Bud Light
Most people have surely pondered what they would save if their house was burning down. A disabled Georgia man went back into a burning home this week to retrieve his beer.
Walter Serpit's house was on fire Thursday, but that did not deter him from going back in for his most prized possession, a case of Bud Light.
Six adults and two young children made it out, but Mr Serpit - who walks with a cane - narrowly escaped death as he ambled back in for his beloved lager.
'I told them to get the kids out and everything, and me myself, being an alcoholic, I was trying to get my beer out,' Mr Serpit, Of Columbus, told WTVM.
I went back into the house like a dummy and the door shut on me because this back draft was about to kill me,' he added.
Remarkably, he made his way to the fridge, grabbed the beer and escaped certain fiery doom.
News footage showed Mr Serpit's case of beer on the ground while he spoke to the media.
Man's got to have his priorities.
Well, all of his shit is burnt up... and he's officially homeless... might as well get drunk, or die trying.
Get drunk on Bud Light? how much did he have?
I would assume he wouldn't of risked his life for less than a case...
The only thing I'd risk my life for is m second paperback edition of Atlas Shrugged.
My family? Ha. Burn and die, looters!
If pregnant drug addicts are left to their own devices to screw up their babies, then they poop out 3, 4, 5, 6 babies which they cannot take care of, this puts an enormous cost on to the rest of society either through cost of maintaining the offspring or in a perfect libertarian society without any social net, in increased violent crime.
Seems the lesser of two evils would be to temporarily reduce the mother's liberty. (The mother in the article should never have been detained, I'm talking about the many thousands who are screwing up their fetuses now with crack, alcohol, etc.)
There's a bundle of suppositions in this statement.
Given a free society would look a lot different from what we have now it is difficult to say just what problems there may be. Junkie moms might not even be a thing.
Come on. That's Utopian nonsense. A free society would have far fewer social problems, but the idea that you wouldn't have junkies in such a scenario is ludicrous.
There is not going to be a New Libertarian Man anymore than there's going to be a New Socialist one.
I didn't say there wouldn't be junkies I just said they wouldn't be a thing.
"Seems the lesser of two evils would be to temporarily reduce the mother's liberty. "
That rolls so easy off a statists tongue, with little thought to what it truly means...
UCLA chapter of Young Americans for Liberty holds affirmative action bake sale
Price of cookies and cupcakes depend on your race, very effective strategy at creating a buzz.
Nigger please! Take this muffin with our complements.
McDonald's drops Heinz Ketchup
emphasis added for WTF?
Big Mac sauce is da bomb!
It's not that bad. A double cheeseburger is pretty good and a great value.
But definitely not up to the level of Wendy's or Carl's Jr.
Wendy's Jr. Cheeseburger Deluxe and a sour cream and chive potater is quite filling.
McDonald's hamburgers may be mediocre, but their French fries may be the best of any major chain, and the McNuggets have been decent enough ever since they stopped using bleached dark meat and went to all-breast.
But the best major chain overall is Sonic.
JIm Gaffigan "McDonald's"
He's great.
Always loved his bit about whether or not Jesus was a good carpenter.
Ever wondered whether Mohammed was a good merchant? Did he do TV ads about Crazy Mo's Crazy Deals? Did he offer discounts on previously-owned camels? [Arab accent] "hey, buddy, want a date?"
[sound of comedian's head being cut off]
A somewhat different take on it.. an old favorite
Hmm, Deathburger!
I guess this means that not only should we not ever talk to the police, we shouldn't talk to our healthcare providers or anyone else.
Y'all held an abortion thread and didn't invite me? I'm just saying, I thought we were friends.
Anyway, here's an article about Islamic extremists in the Central African Republic.
""You can tell the tension is growing," [a missionary named] David continued. "But we didn't know how to deal with [the violence], because of fear of retaliation. They have money and we don't."
"David's house hasn't been looted, but rebel militants looted his cousin's house, his uncle's house, and a friend's house. If Christians don't want to be hurt or looted, he said, they must "pay money and shut up."
""Sometimes they ask you to load all your goods into the pickup truck," David continued. "If [you] say no, they shoot you. I never know what can happen to my family.""
http://www.worldmag.com/2013/1.....n_republic
Oddly enough, the screaming shrieking proglidytes don't want to have this conversation while protesting fracking/shale oil/tar sands/federal land drilling/keystone xl/and even nuke power. The rise of these extraction methods is a wooden stake through the wahabists heart, and the end of their funding... I suspect that '[a missionary named] David' would find these militant shitbags slightly more manageable without Saudi funded madrasas and petrodollars...
They have money guns and we don't.
I suspect that's your real problem.