Who Gives an "F-word" That Society is Coarser Than It Used to Be?: Nick Gillespie at Time.com
In a recent interview, Supreme Court tough guy Antonin Scalia complains
You can't go to a movie—or watch a television show for that matter—without hearing the constant use of the F-word—including, you know, ladies using it…. My goodness!
He's joined in his indignation by the likes of pop singer Annie Lennox, who recently complained about porn masquerading as music videos, and 72 percent of Americans who believe the country's morals are going down the drain.
In a Time.com column, I argue:
I don't know anyone who would seriously challenge the idea that America has become a far cruder society over the last 10, 20, or 30 years. There's probably more sex, violence, and salty language in the opening credits of Keeping Up with the Kardashians than there was on all of prime-time TV when Scalia joined the Supreme Court in 1986.
But really, who gives an…F-word? We may well be an increasingly ill-mannered society, one that's soaking in violent video games, instantly available online porn, and Here Comes Honey Boo Boo like our mothers used to soak in Palmolive liquid. But we're also one in which youth violence, sex, and drug use are all trending down. If that means putting up with, you know, ladies cursing and other examples of unambiguously crass behavior, it seems a terrifically small price to pay.
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Meh, we are, as a nation, facing just a few problems more serious than someone saying fuck. Just sayin...
This. It's a fucking distraction.
Sort of like making it a topic of national importance whether or not some people might find the name of a sports team offensive?
Fucking deflection, how does it work/
Hey, can I interest you in this new federal reserve chairwoman?
Fuck, I thought you said charwoman!
Fuck that.
Printing Hag?
She smoke peace pipe with White Squaw, and make big wampum.
Considering that vulgarity is often the respite of the weaker, less intellectually exposed mind, the two trends may be inextricably linked. Of course, I can at times swear like a sailor so I guess I'm not one to judge.
Moreover, it does strike me as worth noting that neither Scalia nor Lennox here are endorsing any criminal penalties, prior restraint, or sanctions on such language, but rather pleading with the broader society to change its ways. I see no problem nor cognitive dissonance with a person thinking you have a right to do something while also thinking that it's probably best for you to not do it. Like crack for example.
+1
What is Scalia's position on the government's prohibition of "fuck" on airwaves?
In addition the MPAA which automatically restricts usage of "fuck" in theaters, is indirect regulation, a result of threatened government coercion (which in turn became an unholy alliance), the same is true of the ESRB and the only recently defunct Comics Code (which severely restricted American Comics for decades, and still does to a degree).
The documentary Bully, which features real life kids saying "fuck" was given an R-rating by the MPAA, ironically restricting the intended audience of elementary, middle, and high schoolers, again as a result of government's hand in shaping of social norms. So the publisher decided to release as unrated instead, which severely limits their theater distribution.
^ fixed link: http://reason.com/archives/200.....he-matinee
On the ESRB, any game with fuck or swearing is automatically prohibited from sale to anyone under 17 by retailers, and even publisher websites are prohibited from allowing access.
Not only is it a government animal in its origin, others like it also cooperate and are kept in line by government, regularly every year, testing compliance with secret shopper tests
i miss the days of being 15 and going to buy an m game without issue....a year later after i turned 16 i couldn't buy an m game for my brothers Christmas gift so i had the person behind me buy it -_-
Now we have steam and it has done wonders for nurfing ESRB 🙂
Welcome to fuckin Merica.
Can be coarse.
"But we're also one in which youth violence, sex, and drug use are all trending down. If that means putting up with, you know, ladies cursing and other examples of unambiguously crass behavior, it seems a terrifically small price to pay."
That seems like a terribly false choice.
Agreed.
Not seeing any trade-offs here.
This bothered me as well. The way it's phrased, it sounds like Nick is saying it's causal.
Nick fucking Gillespie fucking writing some fucking shitty cultural fucking commentary? Who fucking would have fucking thunk?
I don't agree. He's saying that Scalia and other moral crusaders insinuate and intimate that public vulgarity are signs of tangible harm that leads to a decline in quality of life.
The Jacket is just pointing out that fallacy. I don;t think he is making the claim, but rather assuming that others are buying into such a fallacy and it is that assumption he is attacking.
(true, he is making an assumption about an assumption, but I think he is correct. People DO believe there is a link between public vulgarity and violence and actual occurrences)
We obviously need a new word with more shock value, and the H&R commentariat is just the group to develop it.
Paging Dr. SugarFree. Dr. SugarFree pick up a white courtesy phone, please.
Way to racist the phone.
I suppose next you'll be complaining about parking in the "white zone"
Don't start that "White Zone Bullshit ". Besides parkings in the red zone only .
I feel othered
Oh really, Vernon? Why pretend? We both know perfectly well what this is about. You want me to have an abortion.
well i hate parking between all the yellows....i really hate yellow people...them eyes man
err i mean lines
I think "cocksucker" and "cunt" (I invite the mods to note the quotation marks I put around those words) are the few remaining vulgarities that shock most people when dropped into conversation.
"Bulltwat" seems to shock people, too. But then they *laugh*.
It's hard to come up with vulgarities that aren't comical.
'Deadwood' had to repeatedly use 'cocksucker' and 'fuck' because 19th century swearing was blasphemous rather than scatological and would sound comical to a modern audience.
Can't it be both?
"'Spoop", say?
George Orwell, Down and Out in London and Paris
A very interesting thought... Cursing and swear words move up among classes, styles and luxuries move down?
Perhaps, although the English class system back in 30s, especially before the rise of pop culture and the mediums of pop culture must have affected how these things worked quite a bit.
I also find it hard to imagine 'bloody' as an actual swear word.
OT, but that's one of my favorite books ever.
Yes, I think Orwell's non-dystopian writing is much more entertaining.
Does everyone know that "bloody" refers to menstrual blood? Just wanted to get that in here....
I thought it referred to the blood of Jesus?
Ach, now that I look it up, it seems like nobody knows for sure. I seem to have been spreading an urban legend....
The best new cursory neologism I believe comes from Stephen King, 'shit weasel'. An awe inspiring concept -- man deserves a Nobel. Other favorite, not of recent vintage, but I most associate it with Bobby Shaftoe from Cryptonomicon. Only a serious fuckstain would condemn either man as a mere conduit of vulgarity.
Other favorite, not of recent vintage, but I most associate it with Bobby Shaftoe from Cryptonomicon would be 'fuckhead.' Bet half the people here knew what my error above was missing.
I like the shock and awe value of the word cunt when used on feminists. The great part is their total disbelief that you used that word. The bad part is when they start begging you to have sex with them, and it leads to stalking.
Women inured to the word "cunt" will still freak out when you say "gash" referring to a particular woman or women in general.
i like to refer to them at sarlaccs
or...i forget now had to do with them eating dicks...not sure how i phrased it but i need to start using sarlaccs again ^^
Even cunt doesn't seem to get the reaction it used to. Unless your name is Ken Shultz.
Nigger, kike, faggot, and the other harsh racial and anti-homo slurs are the only obscenities left. And we are huge fucking prudes about them.
Also: Redskins.
There is no racial bigotry here. I do not look down on niggers, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless.
+1 Full Metal Jacket
Well apparently 'nigger' can be used by the right people.
Also used in The Wire. Plus the great scene when McNulty and Bunk were examining a crime scene, using only the word "fuck" or its variations.
Witness the ridiculous over-the-top reaction to the completely appropriate usage of "nigger" in Django Unchained.
Was it by the bad guys? If so, like their behavior, it was showing the audience - look, they're bad guys!
Yes, it was definitely used appropriately and in a historically contextualized way.
Funny too. The real dirty words have become commonplace and the stuff we used to say on the playground as children (faggot, for instance) have replaced them as verboten.
The real dirty words have become commonplace and the stuff we used to say on the playground as children (faggot, for instance) have replaced them as verboten.
You forgot "queer", "retarded", "cripple"...
Apparently in the UK "spaz" is considered a slur.
"Retard" is amusing since it was supposed to be nicer than idiot, moron or imbecile. I mean it just means "late" and all. Now it is even considered a slur.
that's retahded.
"Mental Retardation" was the umbrella term and "moron," "idiot," "imbecile," and "cretin" were formal classifications based on IQ and adaptive functioning. In the older research journals, they used the term "retardate" to refer to the mentally retarded, which always gives me a jolt when I see it. Recently the 5th edition of the DSM did away with "mental retardation." It's now called "Intellectual Disability."
Mental retardation was the PC term for idiot.
What will be the PC term for Intellectual Disability?
Griefers gotta grief.
What are you, intellectually disabled?
I are a ID.
There will be something, that's for sure.
I can't remember the exact term I once read - something like "Cycle of Euphemism" - but people have noticed that certain terms start out neutral, then take on a negative connotation, so a new term is adopted...but then that one starts to take on a negative connotation, so another term has to be adopted, and so on ad infinitum.
Idiot/retard/"developmentally disabled", or crippled/disabled/"differently abled", that kind of thing. Apparently there was a brief fad for "MR" (mentally retarded); I remember reading a book as a kid in which a character's brother was described as "MR", but they would never actually say the word "retarded".
at least gimp is still valid word in normal speak
I like Big Gay Al's idea of re-appropriating 'faggot' as its meaning has been in continual flux over the centuries and it is too good of a word to let die. 'Loud Harley* driving Bikers' was the new 'faggot' in South Park, but it's too circumstantial. It could serve as a more harsh designation for a drama queen. A way to taper that behavior.
*Would not be caught dead on the crap company's bikes.
sigh gay wasn't anything when i was a kid. we throw that word around like it was cool. Now it is all taboo. People look at me all weird when i get screwed over and i say gay.
Cunt I'd agree shocks people, but "cocksucker"? I'd probably laugh if someone said that in conversation; it's the type of profanity a kid learning to swear would say.
It can no longer be considered offensive as it is simply describing the behavior of a certified protected class.
Back when I was being taught to swear by my totally uncivilized anarchist friends, the big ones were goddamnit, bastard, and the big daddy cuss word of all, fuck.
Bastard was the first one I got caught using. Playing Legend of Zelda.
Heh. I got a call from the Montessori we sent our oldest girl to; one of the girls working there (white as a sheet, naturally) recounted how our kid would swear up a storm when she had to identify a seal from a picture and asked us to hang out during one class. As it turns out, the word for seal is "foca" which sounds a lot like... another word. Teacher couldn't have looked more scandalized and horrified as my daughter, with as puzzled an expression as a little girl could muster, kept loudly exclaiming FOCA at the top of her lungs in response to the question of what animal was represented by the picture.
That teacher didn't talk to me for the whole academic year after that. Probably didn't help that I laughed my ass off as it happened.
Cocksucker? Cocksucker is quaint.
I propose "donkey raping shit eater".
I thought that was the GOP's new motto.
That would be an improvement.
"mods"?
Lindy West
Lindy West does sound like a vulgarity, appropriately reinforced by both her prose and her appearance.
How about fathersucker?
Uncle fucker?
"Fuddruckers" -- give it a few years.
Isn't that a hamburger chain?
yes and a good one too. I might have to start using that as an "appropriate" vulgar word
Women just don't know how to curse right anyway, gosh darn it.
Zounds, Fist! Ye bloody sexism doth elucidate why there be nay female libertarians.
Thy vile canker-blossom'd countenance curdles milk and sours beer.
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.
I see you don't personally know any Latin women. They are masters of the art, just get one pissed off and see.
?Ay, caramba!
Oshe! Droga! A Merda! SACO!
Very true... my wife comes from a church background (I'm the sinner and heathen in this relationship, heh), and she can still swear better than most Americans I know if she gets pissed off.
Spanish is a great language to swear in. I suggest we go there for new swear words.
I was an exchange officer in Spain for 2 years. My squadron mates definitely didn't teach me the King's Spanish. In my head I can still hear one of them getting mad at the computer and saying, "Me cago en la leche. Me cago en la PUTA leche!" I know he was mad, but it cracked me up!
AMERICA!!!! FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!
You spelleded it wrongy.
It's A.M.U.R.I.K.A.
I like you, you have balls. I like balls.
UH MERKA!!!!! FUCK YEAH!!!!!!
*stops - salutes - carries on*
Honey Boo Boo is still on the air? I would have thought that after the initial shock value, the ratings would have plummeted.
I find Duck Dynasty just as hard to watch, with the annoying pretense that these are actual unscripted events we are seeing, even while the cast members can't act worth a lick. Nevertheless, the charm of the family and wholesomeness give it a redeeming quality unlike Honey Boo Boo.
The first season of Duck Dynasty had a much more unscripted feel to it.
A lot of the shows start out like that. When they start to notice certain "breakout" characters, producers start orchestrating events to maximize that person's camera time...Hence, Si.
That idiot Tuttle from "Orange County Choppers". What a fucking retard.
Also, watching Boyd Coddington "manage" on his awful show made me wonder how he ever made a nickel in the wheel/hotrod bidness, and why ANYONE would work for him. I did not haz a sad when he died...
Does anyone know if Deadliest Catch was scripted? It looks orchestrated at times, but I would think crab fishermen would rather do without the hassle than try to be amateur thespians.
The totally bestest reality show ever is Turtle Man. No one beats Turtle Man, NO ONE!
Before Chumly started being the focus, I actually really liked Pawn Stars. It's like they could trust us to just enjoy the interactions with the people who come in.
*couldn't
They kinda jumped the shark right about when George Snafalufagus Stephanopolus came in to buy a book.
I saw that episode. I haven't checked the ratings, but that seemed like a desperation move to bring in viewers...Or a desperate attempt by History to quell criticism that they were no longer a "smart" channel.
Pawn Stars
I like the show, but Rick is a total statist, which sort of takes away from it for me.
I like American Pickers better (also think Nicole is sort of hot for a girl with tattoos), and also Storage Wars. Storage Wars can be pretty damn hilarious at times. That is, the old episodes with Barry, Jared and Brandi, and that dickhead Dave Hester. Now they've ruined it with a bunch of totally non-interesting fill ins.
Pawn stars, if fun to me for the crazy artifacts they find, and the "he said that's worth $1000, I'll give you fifty bucks". Pickers is fun for crazy guys with back yards and barns full of motorcycles. Never watched the others.
Aside from that, the whole pawn, payday loan, and rent-to-own industries are amusing as hell to me -- because the vendors are trying to rip off the customers, and the customers are trying to rip off the vendors.
FREE MARKETS!
/Tony
You mean Danielle? I hate tattoos on women but she is really hot.
Yes! Damnit, she looks like a Nicole! My son, who also thinks she is hot, keeps correcting me on her name.
You mean Alternate Universe Steve Spurrier?
Turtle Man vs the skunks was *awesome*.
If you look at history, it's generally a sign of cultural decay.
It's not bad in of itself, but in the future, history will look at us now and see the signs of our fall.
So we're fucked.
Fuck....
Those *fuckers*!
If you look at history, it's generally a sign of cultural decay.
Only inasmuch as it illustrates a lack of sophistication and a general dumbing-down of people.
I feel people who consistently use fuck or shit or whatever in casual, non-agitated conversations aren't that bright and have an underdeveloped vocabulary.
Some of the most articulate and intelligent people I know also do it. But typically not when seriously discussing a topic one on one. It's usually associated with sarcasm or general chit chat over a few beers.
I know that I tend to do this a lot here, but it seems totally called for when considering the insanity of the topics that we discuss regularly discuss.
My father taught me, if you swear all the time, it has no meaning when you want it to.
That said, when I'm SweatingBourbon, I use 'fuck you' as punctuation.
This.
I use cunt when I'm SweatingScotch, as any good True Scotsman is wont to do.
I swear all the time exactly because I want it to have no meaning. People need to get over this kind of shit.
Are you suggesting that the writers at Jezebel are either not intelligent or not serious about what they're discussing? Are you FUCKING saying that, you fuck? WHAT. THE. FUCK.
Haha, I laughed because this was funny because you used caps, which are the ironclad way to ensure that the person reading your comment will laugh! He's using majuscule letters when it is customary to use miniscule letters! Hysterical!!!
Still, if you really wanted your comment to kill it you have to include at least one Ryan Gosling gif.
/Feminist Style Guide
Bonus points for the etymology of "hysterical"!
If you look at history, it's generally a sign of cultural decay.
In our case there is also something else going on. It got started in the mid-1800's, but especially since the 1910s and the 1960s, the best art is not supposed to be beautiful or tasteful, but be shocking to the bourgeoisie. It's now gotten to the point of shock for its own sake, like Miley Cyrus' VMA performance. It's still possible to shock, but increasingly such things come off as merely tasteless, uncreative, and ultimately boring. I'm a fan of edgy comedy, but I really don't think adding vomit scenes to movies usually adds anything.
Shock art doesn't age well. Look at the stuff Dadaists threw out in the 20s and the 30s -- there's some sort of interesting stuff in its historical context, but looking at something like this the average person outside that context just says, Dafuq?
Good art goes beyond a juvenile attempt to shock, IMO.
I do find it kind of funny...
It got started in the mid-1800's, but especially since the 1910s and the 1960s, the best art is not supposed to be beautiful or tasteful, but be shocking to the bourgeoisie.
David Thompson skewers such "art" on a regular basis.
Ken Schultz's sandy cunt?
North Korea is due to open its first multi-million dollar ski resort on Thursday complete with ski runs, ski lifts, resort chalets and sleigh rides.
But there are doubts whether the resort will be ready in time.
Apparently the resort is being developed by the same people who brought you the Democratcare software.
The real question might be, will there ever be any people on the slopes outside of the rare times that some international visitor considered important is visiting?
Or the people who built the NSA's computers to explode.
Sometime earlier this week, there was the rant posted from the KosKid that was illustrating the diversity of the word 'fuck' .
And the new almost liberal concern troll was pointing out how folks here reacted to it, when we swear and say terrible things all the time.
I meant to get this said, but didn't get a chance to.
if the H&R regulars think you are swearing too much, step back and take a look at your life and the choices you have made
The issue with that guy was the same reason I don't quite agree with Gillespie. There's nothing wrong with swearing as a part of other speech or to accentuate a point. There IS a problem with swearing when you say fuck every other word because you don't have the vocabulary or the reasoning ability to clearly explain your point.
The Kos Kid was using the word fuck as a crutch to make up for being a total moron. An awful lot of people in America are like that now. I do think that people constantly saying fuck is a good sign of low intellectual standards and should be criticized from a rational standpoint. You don't have to be a socially conservative moralist to think that a society that constantly falls back on curse words instead of actually explaining their positions just might be headed in the wrong direction.
You don't have to be a socially conservative moralist to think that a society that constantly falls back on curse words instead of actually explaining their positions just might be headed in the wrong direction.
Well said.
I agree.
Agreed. Hyperion's inaugural post on this thread suggested we have bigger problems. While I concur with that sentiment, it stands to reason that the increasingly terse and vulgar degeneration of our daily speech may be a symptom of the same disease. And merely insinuating that such trends are culturally unhealthy does not equate to insinuating that any particular government action should be taken to rectify it either.
a symptom of the same disease
Does this disease have a name?
Idiocracy
See also: "you talk like a fag and your (sic) shits all retarded."
Go away, mm batin!
Fuckery?
I do not see any meaningful correlation. The least intelligent culture could potentially speak like Shakespeare or whoever the fuck else is regarded as a lingual genius.
I totally fucking agree with you. (fuck).
I do agree, but I can't help but think that it's part of a larger bastardization of language. Refinement is all well and good and with enough of it you can identify a word for the task that hasn't been corrupted, but the politicization of language is such that common and straightforward words describing a concept ("freedom", "equality", "fairness", "diversity", and on the list goes) mean something else entirely. If only the high registers of a language has clearly defined terms, the more lowbrow uses are going to be too unclear to communicate with in the first place, rendering questions about profanity being unclear somewhat moot.
I think there is also a certain bastardization of thought and action going on. Not that crudity in all forms hasn't existed throughout history, but for a long time to be civilized meant to be refined. People strived to be (or at least appear to be) educated and well-mannered. Look at photos of poor people in the 1930s: unless they were homeless tramps, they tried to look presentable. The average poor black in the Harlem of back then looks, to today's eyes, like they were dressed up for church all the time.
But youthful rebels of the '50s and '60s got glamorized, and it became cool to "be real," which often means unrefined, emotional, vulgar, simplistic, impulsive, even stupid. Now street culture is practically celebrated in media. A mannerless thug who can't speak English well is "genuine," while someone who speaks and dresses and acts well is "fake," if not a boring sell-out, or even a traitor to his ethnic group.
And while I know the lure of socialism has deeper roots, I see it there, too. In many ways the desire for (say) single-payer healthcare is vulgar, simplistic, emotional, and stupid. People say "let's just have the central government handle it," and wave their hands in the direction of Europe, without any knowledge of the proven downsides of this approach. Hey, there are rich people, there are poor people, so who needs a refined point of view? One simply takes from the rich and gives to the poor. It's all very obvious, if you let your emotions make you stupid.
I agree in a sense, but I think that the larger problem is not with using vulgar words, but with using a series of emotions instead of reason. If we were using "darn" instead of "fuck," as I'm sure Scalia would love, it wouldn't make the problem better.
I hate to say it given outstanding tradition in the American lexicon -- but right now, profanity as an art is dead. 7-year old kids on XBox Live, I blame you for making swear words boring and juvenile. The last show to really have fun with swearing was Deadwood, and even then it felt tacked on in the last season.
Maybe some R Lee Ermey type will bring it back as a form of popular entertainment.
So he thinks the movie industry needs a "new professionalism"?
The upper classes have always bitched about the perceived immorality of the lower classes.
Yeah, but elitist bitching about the lower class can produce some pretty great art at times.
- H.L. Mencken
God the man could write. 'The lust to make the world intolerable.'
I firmly maintain that even the most vulgar troglodyte could summon such majestic prose to elucidate the squalor and human refuse that eminates from all of Yinzerdom with equal measures of pity and scorn.
Whenever I read Mencken I am struck by two sentiments:
1) There's a man whose command of language was impeccable
2) There's a man whose good points about the nature of humanity are buried under a metric ton of misplaced misanthropy and sneering elitism
While true as it concerns your second point, please note that the passage cited is describing Pittsburg and therefore the misanthropy and sneering elitism is plainly justifiable, dare I say even, slightly more demure than the subjects merit.
I don't know that a man who knowingly lied in a journalistic capacity about the outcome of a battle (later calling this lie his "masterpiece of all time") should be applauded for looking down on others as "a race which hates beauty as it hates truth".
Which battle?
I want to say it was the Battle of Port Arthur.
Apparently he made up an account of the Battle of Tsushima.
http://books.google.ca/books?i.....o-japanese war, mencken&f=false
The Snopes trial? Please elucidate.
Go read his articles about the South. He called it 'the sub-Potomac.' They are some of the most vile and nasty things ever set down on paper, but given what was happening in the South at the time, hardly unjustified.
IIRC, he said the same kind of stuff about whites in Ohio.
And he once referred to a hypothetical Prussian official committing misconduct in office and being punished by being reassigned to a job where he has to listen to "the gibbering perjury of anthropoid Poles."
He was much nastier to certain categories of whites in public than he was to Jews and blacks in his "infamous" diary.
Mencken was very pro-black compared to some of his contemporaries. He attacked the South because of civil rights abuses targeting black people. He also was angry at the government for not allowing Jews to come here from Germany when they were being persecuted by Hitler. Thousands of lives would have been saved if the government had done what Mencken wanted.
For all his personal flaws, he came down on the right side more often than not and he did far more good than harm.
Yes, he wanted to let in the persecuted German Jews (who he clearly distinguished from what he deemed the undesirable East European Jews).
Yes, he was against Wilson's reign of terror vs civil liberties.
Yes, he opposed lynching, abuse of black people, said that they wouldn't get the right to vote until they stood up for it.
But no, his attacks on the South were not *because* of Jim Crow - he hated just about *everything* white Southerners did - Prohibition being up on the list.
He was *nasty* toward many lower-class whites, and it wasn't just because of their racism, because the Poles in German Poland had little opportunity to oppress blacks, yet he still insulted them like he did the whites the Dayton, Tenn area. And he didn't rip into the whites around Dayton because of race, but because of their religion, which he deemed primitive (and was in many ways similar to Southern black religion).
He specifically went after Southerners for attacking black people and other civil rights violations.
Here's an article about it.
Mencken's newspaper had people cancel subscriptions and death threats were sent to him and other writers for the Sun because Mencken viciously attacked people for lynching blacks.
He specifically goes after the 'lynching spirit.'
I mean, he went to bat before the Senate on an anti-lynching bill. I agree he would have attacked Southerners regardless of their views on blacks, but he clearly saw their racism and violence as a mark against them.
".. he would have attacked Southerners regardless of their views on blacks, but he clearly saw their racism and violence as a mark against them."
Low hanging fruit... (no pun intended)
"He specifically went after Southerners for attacking black people and other civil rights violations."
That's what I said.
Yep! That's what makes him so fun and also what keeps him from being one of the all time greats. His elitism and absolute loathing of his fellow Americans gave him some of his best material, particularly in his writing about the Scopes Monkey Trial, but also warped some of his articles into something almost evil. I feel like his hatred of other Americans actually resulted in many of his moral lapses: His support of the German autocracy under Bismark, his unwavering belief in eugenics, and his full-throated support of the death penalty.
You'll notice that those examples are all totally opposed to all his other beliefs. How can someone who was pro-freedom support what was essentially a military dictatorship? How can someone who had nothing but contempt for government and 'the uplifters' claim that we should use eugenics and the death penalty to cull the herd?
It's because he was allowing his hatred of certain groups of people to overthrow his reason.
In fairness, Prussia was fairly enlightened and not appreciably worse off liberty-wise than its major neighboring republic, France. Indeed, all three of the major European monarchies eliminated at the end of the first World War were succeeded by significantly more authoritarian/totalitarian states (the Czechoslovakian and Finnish republics being notable exceptions).
I do wonder how much of Mencken's hatred was for show. I've always had the impression in reading his stuff that he was sort of a wunderkund who got bored writing conventional pieces and decided to throw bricks at people he didn't like as hard as he could, more out of curiosity and self-entertainment than anything else.
Um Mencken was writing during WWI and was praising Germany when compared to the US. Seems all his hatred about the US was because the Wrong Top Men where in charge. Basically he was a more erudite, misanthropic Thomas Friedman.
Which is unbelievable. You could perhaps argue somewhat for Bismarkian Germany in the 1870s as having better qualities than the US (it'd be dubious, but possible), but Wilhelmine Germany by WWI had policies in its corner of Africa well beyond the pale of anything ever done by any US government, and its Germanisation policy towards Poles was not that far off from what was going on in the Southern US at that time.
Guy could not get over stepping on bourgeois America's dick for long enough to see the problems with everyone else (including himself), methinks.
Yeah, I forgot some of the stuff he said in favor of Wilhelm's Germany. He actually had an article in which he flat out said that he hoped Germany won.
This was withheld by his editors. They almost certainly saved his career.
Wasn't Mencken an opponent of conscription or did Germany have the Right Top Men (as supposed to Lincoln, Wilson or Roosevelt) running it and was done for the good of the Fatherland rather than the boobeousie and the WASP elite?
Read Mencken on Imperial Germany during WWI:
http://www.theatlantic.com/mag.....et/306393/
http://www.theatlantic.com/pas.....encken.htm
Mencken was just a moronic Germanophile. That's what I meant when I said that he allowed his personal love or hatred to crowd out his reason more often than I'd like.
He adored Germany and hated Americans, so he came down in favor of Germany in WWI despite the fact that it was contrary to all of his principles.
Hitler was so vile that he managed to make Mencken turn against Germany. Hell, part of Mencken's hatred of Hitler was probably because he saw him as degrading the noble German spirit.
Thank you for those links, Winston.
Mencken right after WWI broke out, praising Germany's Nietzschean spirit - since this is a thread about coarseness, you can just hear his puckered lips going to work on the tip of the Prussian bayonet:
"Do we see again those grave, blond warriors of whom Tacitus tells us?who were good to their women, and would not lie, and were terrible in battle? Is the Teuton afoot for new conquests, a new tearing down, a new building up, a new transvaluation of all values? And if he is, will he prevail? Or will he be squeezed to death between the two mill-stones of Christianity and Mongol savagery? Let us not assume his downfall too lightly: it will take staggering blows to break him. And let us not be alarmed by his possible triumph. What did Rome ever produce to match the Fifth Symphony?"
(I must have missed this essay in the standard anthologies, just as I missed his 1925 Nation article about how prosecuting Scopes was constitutional)
That's unfair. Mencken came down on the right side usually. He also wasn't stark raving mad like Friedman.
Once the Germans and the Italians actually swung to a fascist extreme, Mencken started bashing them before most other people in America did. He also attacked Stalin when no one was doing so. Read this excerpt from an open letter Mencken wrote to Upton Sinclair:
Of course, this was before the bulk of Hitler's crimes were known. It was actually probably before they were committed. Given the stuff Mencken knew at the time, this is actually a very fair assessment of the situation.
That's unfair. Mencken came down on the right side usually. He also wasn't stark raving mad like Friedman.
Perhaps. I was comparing his attitude toward Wilhelmine Germany to Friedman's attitude toward China.
Mencken was not alone. Randolph Bourne wrote praise of Imperial Germany as well.
Even today there is a tendency for libertarians' anti-Americanism to lead to overly apologetic defenses of America's enemies for having supposedly more competent leadership.
I don't think it's "anti-Americanism" but "anti-US government" sentiment that leads to what you describe Winston. They're not the same thing. But I do agree that the hatred certain libertarians hold toward the USG (I'm looking at you Lew Rockwell) leads to them overestimating how bad the USG is and/or underestimating how bad foreign governments are.
In Mencken's case it's safe to say there was anti-Americanism there. He wasn't all that fond of US society.
I was responding to your last paragraph about libertarians today, not Mencken.
I've always had the impression in reading his stuff that he was sort of a wunderkund who got bored writing conventional pieces and decided to throw bricks at people he didn't like as hard as he could, more out of curiosity and self-entertainment than anything else.
As much as I like him, yes, there was more than a bit of a troll about him. He enjoyed provoking people and being a contrarian.
2) There's a man whose good points about the nature of humanity are buried under a metric ton of misplaced misanthropy and sneering elitism
I'm reminded of an exchange from Inherit the Wind (which, BTW, is airing at 1:30 PM ET Friday on TCM). Drummond (played by Spencer Tracy) is the equivalent of Darrow, while Hornbeck (Gene Kelly) is the Mencken equivalent:
Ah Stanley Kramer, the Aaron Sorkin of the Fifties and Sixties.
On the other hand, Kramer directed Cary Grant in one of his only costume dramas, The Pride and the Passion.
(Grant had made The Howards of Virginia many years earlier, didn't care for it -- probably because of that ghastly wig -- and didn't really want to do another costume drama again in his career. The Pride and the Passion gave him the chance to work in Spain and get away from his failing marriage.)
He also produced the Caine Mutiny so he wasn't all bad.
LOL
He once lived right down the street from where I live right now. Easy walk from here.
"What I admire most in any man is a serene spirit, a steady freedom from moral indignation, an all-embracing tolerance ? in brief, what is commonly called good sportsmanship. Such a man is not to be mistaken for one who shirks the hard knocks of life. On the contrary, he is frequently an eager gladiator, vastly enjoying the opposition. But when he fights he fights in the manner of a gentleman fighting a duel, not in that of a longshoreman cleaning out a waterfront saloon. That is to say, he carefully guards his amour propre by assuming that his opponent is as decent a man as he is, and just as honest ? and perhaps, after all, right. Such an attitude is palpably impossible to a democrat. His distinguishing mark is the fact that he always attacks his opponents, not only with all arms, but also with snorts and objurgations ? that he is always filled with moral indignation ? that he is incapable of imagining honor in an antagonist, and hence incapable of honor himself. Such fellows I do not like. I do not share their emotion. I can't understand their indignation, their choler. In particular, I can't fathom their envy. And so I am against them." ?H.L. Mencken
"Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on 'I am not too sure.'" ?H.L. Mencken
True by dint of the fact that any change requires divergence from the starting model, but a largely irrelevant observation by dint of the fact that negative change is similarly encapsulated by such a model.
The Marxists and socialists of Mencken's time could be described as "men who have doubted the current moral values" just as much as Mencken, if not more so.
At any rate, Mencken's idiotic formulation vis a vis moral certainty lacks anything in the way of consistency with his own views -- coming as it does from one of the more celebrated scolders in a storied American tradition of scolding from the time of the Puritans onwards. Mencken was no less a morally strident bore for holding a minority view than were his opponents.
The Marxists and socialists of Mencken's time could be described as "men who have doubted the current moral values" just as much as Mencken, if not more so.
They still think so today and will continue to think so if libertopia is ever achieved.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." ?H. L. Mencken
"Genius: the ability to prolong one's childhood." ?H.L. Mencken
"No man would want to be President of the United States in strict accordance with the Constitution. There is no sense of power in merely executing laws; it comes from evading or augmenting them." ?H.L. Mencken
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." ?H.L. Mencken
All of these aphorisms are very superficial. For all the criticism Mencken made of the shallow thinking of his fellows, he wasn't swimming in a pool that ran too much deeper.
Clever lines, sure but let's not pretend that his intellect was put to use developing much beyond coming up with barbs pointed at others.
I think you are missing the depth behind the simplicity of his aphorisms.
I think you're mistaking the cleverness of the turn of phrase with deeper meaning.
Take the first aphorism. It is first of all untrue in a universal sense: there are many complex problems, especially in the physical sciences and the philosophies, where a "simple" solution is not even sufficiently developed enough to be considered responsive and thus "wrong", and where there is not an answer which satisfies the criterion listed.
It is also misleading in a wider sense: there are several areas of thought where in fact a simple and clear solution *is* the credible one; much of common and criminal law proceeds from fairly intuitive insights of that nature, ditto economic thought. The preferred libertarian economics tend to be rooted in very simple microeconomic observations and models. As T Sowell points out, many critics of "simplistic" thinking often fail to see the resultant problems in the application of complex solutions to systematic or institutionalized problems. It is often the case that a simple and clear answer is the best answer, and it is wrong to let misanthropy blind one from the cases where Burkean "wisdom of the crowds" or otherwise simple answers are sound.
The others can likewise be deconstructed. Mencken's opponents were often reductive in analysis, but the man was himself a fan of painting with a rhetorical brush several sizes bigger than what is needed for the task.
I have to agree with PSF here, those aphorisms are not drawn from a shallow pool. Most journalist could not pull off a single one of those examples.
Meh.
Read Juvenal.
He railed about the exact same immoral things in Roman society.
And his observations thereof happen to correspond almost to the date with the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire. Now maybe you understand the reason that such concerns ought not be dismissed outright?
Absolutely.
Oh. Ahem.
What a smug cunt Andrea Mitchell is.
http://www.americanthinker.com.....duffy.html
Don't you mean Andrea Greenspan?
"But you don't have to have it Senator.."
"UH FUCK YOU YES I DO ANDREA."
".........."
She is the worst.
Thing is, I wish I were the 3rd person in the debate and could say 'Yes, senator, you are participating in Obamacare, but unlike other Americans in your income bracket, you are getting a very large and unfair subsidy. Are you willing to also cut off those subsides? If so, I am by your side'
Fuck you you fukedy ass fukety fuck fuck fuck fucking fuckitive fuckeroo.
And thus a Youtube commenter was born.
Too many correctly spelled fucks.
So you're saying he gave too much of a fuck about giving fucks?
So it's better that you assassinate people in your head when they cut you off in traffic than yelling "fuck you" at them.
Let me posit that the socially constrained expression of verbal and hypothetical violence -- in traffic, in GTA IV -- is actually healthy for society.
There is a disturbance in the Force: Disney debuts teaser for 'Rebels' animated TV show
What's with the narration?
The 90s called; they want their narration back.
Some historical uses of the word "fuck":
General Custer "Where did all them fucking Indians come from?
Mayor of Hiroshima "What the fuck was that?"
Captain of the Titanic "Where's all the fucking water coming from?"
Michelangelo "You want me to paint what on the fucking ceiling?"
Einstein "Any fucker could understand that."
Sean Penn "Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck"
John Lennon "Is that a real fucking gun?"
Donald Campbell "The fucking throttle is stuck."
More here
"How's that hope and change fucking working out for ya?"
Yeah. Read those 15 years ago. What else ya got?
"they couldn't hit an elephant at this fucking dist..."
"Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your fuckin' ears"
"It was the most fuckin' awesomest of times, it was the suckiest of times."
"All hope abandon, ye who enter here...because you're well and truly fucked."
"My only regret is that I have only one life to give for my country - well, my other regret is I didn't have the chance to make King George suck my fucking cock."
OK, the last one was pretty fucking funny.
"And dying in your bed many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for
one chance, just one chance, to come back here as young men and tell
our enemies that they may take our fucking lives but those fuckers will never take
OUR FREEDOOMMMMM!"
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give two fucks."
"Luke, use the fucking Force Luke. Let go."
Superman: Easy miss, I got you.
Lois: You've got me? Who the fuck's got you?!
Captain of the Hindenberg: What the fuck?!
Manners, are becoming more real, less bullshit.
David Manners wasn't that good in Dracula.
Speaking of profanities..
Tonight's episode of South Park kinda fucking sucked.
Tonight's? SP is in epic fail mode. Hasn't been funny since what, 2006?
Oh come on, Reverse Cowgirl was brilliant.
I've enjoyed some since 2006...but this season is just...blech. Even the stuff I agree with is just kinda lame - there aren't the double-fakes and layers there used to be.
Each season will have at least a few gems, but so far this season has been bland.
The Minecraft episode wasn't horrible but the NSA episode and this Zimmerman one were pretty big misfires because they didn't surprise or do something unexpected.
This Zimmerman one has all the trappings of a South Park episode, but it didn't have the soul. I guess I expected it to be a big middle finger to the mainstream entertainment take on the incident, but it just limply followed along where everybody else went.
Exactly. I understand Trey and Matt having a problem with Zimmerman and the fucked up racial aspects of whole affair, but you lose your edge if all you can do is make the same tired jokes about how you can shoot anyone you want in Florida.
I was really hoping they'd have the balls to send up the beatification of St. Trayvon, which has nothing to do with what Trayvon was actually like and everything to do with pushing an anti-gun, white supremacist America narrative.
There's some message but I think they are trying to be too abstract.
Cartman's actions lead to Zimmerman being executed. Cartman then shoots Token. Cartman then gets called a murderer, but it is revealed that Token did not die. So the murder would have to refer to the death of Zimmerman (or all the other bystanders that died in the episode), or it was just a bad script.
I thought the episode was funny as Hell. 'Black guy, in the back.' Minecraft episode was too. Hated the premier though. Thought it was pretty awful, even if the political criticism was on the money it was predictable and not funny at all.
However, as funny as the Zimmerman episode was, its evident that Matt and Tray often don't know what the fuck they are writing about. This happened in their Wikilinks episode from a few seasons ago too. So obtusely clueless about the subject matter, the particular humor of the moment could not have possibly been made from an informed mind.
Also, it would have been far more daring if it pointed out that the consensus reaction of far too many black people to the verdict was like a ridiculous zombie movie. That would have made waves much more than Cartman pulling another bigot stunt.
Bring on the fuckin' Cardinals!
The article talks about some recent good news socially, but leaves out the part where our decadence is increasing while the national debt and unwed motherhood are also increasing.
Was the crime rate *higher* or *lower* before the increase in illegitimacy
I dare anyone to get through the Bill Maher interview on Arsenio without letting slip a few f-bombs.
Funky used to refer to body odor. Apparently of the vagina?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTIbCrkKeqI
Fucking shorter fucking version you fucking fuckety fuck fuck cocksucking cunt fuckers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VKFkbns4bs
Before Ted S. says anything I think Karen Morley and Ann Dvorak (she whose Daddy was responsible for the Butler title change) are hotter than Michelle Pfeiffer and Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio.
I was going to say something about "the best parts of the movie," but I worry about offending the fanboys.
PAUL MUNI 4 LYFE!!!
Also his movie was half as long, LOL.
Guy puts together chart explaining the fee distribution of O'care for CA family of 5:
http://blog.sfgate.com/djsaund.....macare.jpg
Yes, it's simply a 'progressive' tax scheme, but the numbers might be surprising
Deadwood pancakes.
Fucking Hoopleheads!
Is this actually a society wide problem, or is it just that the recent performance of the SCOTUS has resulted in Scalia specifically being cussed out a lot more than he used to?
...not cussed out...
"FYTW."
Jurist, fuck thyself.
Um, OT but obviously .... obvious.
Lefties now blame teh Racizm and Geeesus of GOP for shutdown
http://thinkprogress.org/justi.....-shutdown/
http://www.ringoffireradio.com.....-takeover/
Surprised it took them this long
Shatner's New SINGLE
white animals are considered sacred.
Racists!
So Manning won a prize named after a former IRA terrorist? Is Peter King happy or sad?
So can anyone tell me what kind of music is in to like on teh interwebs? Or does someone knowing that make it a sellout?
Ylvis is still cool.
Cool or ironically cool?
Internet folks are big fans of post-Renaissance instrumental music. Baroque is where the pussy's at.
Really, any type of chamber music is popular with the kids these days.
Damn, too bad harpsichord makes my teeth bleed.
Pipe organ or fuck off.
Hammond B3 with a leslie speaker.
Chicks dig the harp
Chicks don't dig the jew harp.
Wait, THAT'S a Jew's harp? I first heard of that instrument in To Kill A Mockingbird and I always imagined it to be a fancy and eloquent instrument.
Mind blown.
You Know Who Else believed in Jewish Stereotypes?
H. L. Mencken?
Albert Brooks?
Jerry Seinfeld?
Gamal Nasser?
RIP Phil Chevron of the Pogues.
So I guess he can kiss his ass now.
What we are talking about is character, not language per se.
Having said that, what does it say about me that I love this song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OrEInDTFEs