Reason.com - Free Minds and Free Markets
Reason logo Reason logo
  • Latest
  • Magazine
    • Current Issue
    • Archives
    • Subscribe
    • Crossword
  • Video
  • Podcasts
    • All Shows
    • The Reason Roundtable
    • The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie
    • The Soho Forum Debates
    • Just Asking Questions
    • The Best of Reason Magazine
    • Why We Can't Have Nice Things
  • Volokh
  • Newsletters
  • Donate
    • Donate Online
    • Donate Crypto
    • Ways To Give To Reason Foundation
    • Torchbearer Society
    • Planned Giving
  • Subscribe
    • Reason Plus Subscription
    • Print Subscription
    • Gift Subscriptions
    • Subscriber Support

Login Form

Create new account
Forgot password

Politics

FISA Reminder: Rand Paul and Ron Wyden Warned You

Matt Welch | 6.6.2013 11:08 AM

Share on FacebookShare on XShare on RedditShare by emailPrint friendly versionCopy page URL
Media Contact & Reprint Requests

Back in November of last year, Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky) made a video decrying the abuse of PATRIOT Act Section 215, warning that it authorized the secret government acquisition of "gazillions" of records, and that in terms of Americans being snooped, "the number is beyond normal cognition." Watch:

The in late December, the Senate convened an "unusual special session" to re-authorizing the FISA Amendments Act. Among the amendments to the re-authorization that were overwhelmingly shot down were a Rand Paul measure to extend Fourth Amendment protections to email, and an attempt by Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) to require estimates from intelligence agencies of how many Americans were being surveilled. Said Wyden at the time: "I think, when you talk about oversight, and you can't even get a rough estimate of how many law-abiding Americans had their communications swept up by this law … the idea of robust oversight, really ought to be called toothless oversight if you don't have that kind of information."

Wyden and Paul may be at the forefront of a nascent bipartisan Civil Liberties Caucus, but make no mistake: They are vastly outnumbered. Only when civil libertarians win national arguments, and only when a majority of lawmakers are consistent defenders of the Fourth Amendment no matter which major political party holds power at the moment, will America begin the process of even slowing down the relentless advancement of the surveillance state.

Rand Paul praised Ron Wyden in his recent Twitter Q&A with Reason.

UPDATE: Paul reacts to the latest news, calling it "an astounding assault on the Constitution."

Start your day with Reason. Get a daily brief of the most important stories and trends every weekday morning when you subscribe to Reason Roundup.

This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged.

NEXT: Bank of England Not Going for Quantitative Easing Despite Departing Chief's Support

Matt Welch is an editor at large at Reason.

PoliticsNSACivil LibertiesPolicySurveillanceFourth AmendmentWar on TerrorRand Paul
Share on FacebookShare on XShare on RedditShare by emailPrint friendly versionCopy page URL
Media Contact & Reprint Requests

Hide Comments (85)

Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.

  1. Bardas Phocas   12 years ago

    On topic: '1984' was published on this date in 1949.

    It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.

    As usual, the face of Emmanuel Goldstein, the Enemy of the People, had flashed on to the screen. There were hisses here and there among the audience.
    http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/0.html

    1. fried wylie   12 years ago

      In the spirit of fucking things up I'm going to claim, without foundation, that a 13hour clock would stop global warming. or maybe stop terrorism. Whichever is more effective at causing the devastating economic repurcussions that replacing all time pieces and modification of hardware and software would entail.

      Enjoy.

      1. dikyfuqazoniA2   12 years ago

        Gabriella. you think Jimmy`s blurb is super, last saturday I got Fiat Multipla after having made $4545 this-last/5 weeks and also ten-grand last month. with-out any doubt it's the best-job Ive had. I began this nine months/ago and pretty much immediately started making a cool at least $81 per hour. I went to this website..... Grand4.com
        (Go to site and open "Home" for details)

  2. The Late P Brooks   12 years ago

    Another so-called "scandal". Pfffft.

    The President and the atty genl are making America safer!

    1. JJK   12 years ago

      /sarc?

  3. Bardas Phocas   12 years ago

    Goldstein was delivering his usual venomous attack upon the doctrines of the Party -- an attack so exaggerated and perverse that a child should have been able to see through it, and yet just plausible enough to fill one with an alarmed feeling that other people, less level-headed than oneself, might be taken in by it. He was abusing Big Brother, he was denouncing the dictatorship of the Party, he was demanding the immediate conclusion of peace with Eurasia, he was advocating freedom of speech, freedom of the Press, freedom of assembly, freedom of thought, he was crying hysterically that the revolution had been betrayed...

    1. Sevo   12 years ago

      "he was advocating freedom of speech, freedom of the Press, freedom of assembly, freedom of thought, he was crying hysterically that the revolution had been betrayed..."

      And the audience said: "Bush did it too!"

      1. Libertymike   12 years ago

        And his sissified daddy.

      2. grey   12 years ago

        It's not like I'm a Verizon customer.

  4. Fist of Etiquette   12 years ago

    Fear not, the state's agents won't target you.

    1. Bryan C   12 years ago

      Of course not. We like you.

      So. How about that drink?

    2. Bill   12 years ago

      First they came for the communists,
      and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
      Then they came for the socialists,
      and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
      Then they came for the trade unionists,
      and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
      Then they came for the Jews,
      and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
      Then they came for the Catholics,
      and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Catholic.
      Then they came for me,
      and there was no one left to speak for me.

  5. Bardas Phocas   12 years ago

    'Do it to Julia! Do it to Julia! Not me! Julia! I don't care what you do to her. Tear her face off, strip her to the bones. Not me! Julia! Not me!'

    1. Inigo M.   12 years ago

      I know it's just coincidence, but besides being a character from 1984, Julia was also the name of the representative citizen who realizes all the "wonderful benefits" of the Nanny state in a progressive video touting cradle-to-grave public services.

      1. kinnath   12 years ago

        I made that connection and was screaming in agreement to torture that bitch.

  6. kinnath   12 years ago

    What has been broken, cannot be mended.

  7. Ken Shultz   12 years ago

    I hope the point gets emphasized at some point here that FISA really does look like a rubber stamp.

    According to the Department of Justice's own report to Congress, of the 1788 FISA requests submitted for approval in 2012, the courts approved every single one of them.

    http://www.wired.com/images_bl.....acases.pdf

    I suppose the problem the Obama Administration had when it wanted to do electronic surveillance on, oh, say 20 million people is that it's physically impossible to submit 20 million FISA requests and get them all approved in a reasonable amount of time.

    But there's no reason to think that a court would reject any FISA request, and that presents a danger, here. If I know the Obama Administration at all, they're going to emphasize that because FISA is a rubber stamp, it's basically a waste of time--and so we should get rid of it.

    We libertarians should be arguing that if FISA is a rubber stamp, then the solution isn't to ignore our 4th Amendment rights completely--it's to make it so FISA isn't a rubber stamp anymore.

    1. fried wylie   12 years ago

      ignore our 4th Amendment rights completely

      Sure, negate the whole point of the exercise.

      1. Ken Shultz   12 years ago

        That's how they see it for sure.

        It's just that...Obama is going to use the argument that FISA is a rubber stamp against us.

        Just like when we criticized the rent seeking behavior of the banks--he used that to justify TARP, Dodd-Frank, etc. When we criticized the way Medicare and Medicaid work to destroy the healthcare markets--he used that as a justification for ObamaCare...

        He'll use anything we say about how FISA is really a rubber stamp as a justification for getting rid of FISA completely. He's an individual rights hating bastard.

        1. CBear   12 years ago

          Yes he is. Do you think maybe he's a SOCIOPATH? I think he experiences duping pleasure, becuase HE JUST SAID THIS:

          Unfortunately, you've grown up hearing voices that incessantly warn of government as nothing more than some separate, sinister entity that's at the root of all our problems. Some of these same voices also do their best to gum up the works. They'll warn that tyranny always lurking just around the corner. You should reject these voices. Because what they suggest is that our brave, and creative, and unique experiment in self-rule is somehow just a sham with which we can't be trusted.

          1. Jose Chung   12 years ago

            Anyone who seeks to wield the power possessed by the President of the United States should be viewed with utmost suspicion and no statement made by them should be believed unless backed up with incontrovertible evidence. It should then be taken with a Kaaba-sized grain of salt for good measure.

    2. Inigo M.   12 years ago

      "...they're going to emphasize that because FISA is a rubber stamp, it's basically a waste of time--and so we should get rid of it."

      IF ONLY they applied the same logic to all the other government programs that are basically a waste of time. The debt would disappear.

      1. Ken Shultz   12 years ago

        I doubt they'd apply it to making government spending programs more efficient, but Individual rights are the biggest inconvenience for the government and when they're not busy spending our money, they're trying to find more efficient ways to inflict their will on the rest of us...

        "The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is inefficiency. An efficient bureaucracy is the greatest threat to liberty."

        Eugene McCarthy

        http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/1195.html

        Damn Nazis could make the trains run on time--that should have been a red flag as to how truly dangerous they were, right there.

        1. Bryan C   12 years ago

          Wasn't that the Italian Fascists?

          Having reliable trains isn't really such a big accomplishment. Not until you live under a regime that is so badly run, capricious, and abusive that even a marginally competent dictatorship seems like an great improvement. That's when things get really, really dangerous.

    3. Tonio   12 years ago

      Well, the government's narrative, even before 2001, was that the DOJ only submitted air-tight cases to the FISA court. I do recall seeing a small number rejected warrants (ten or fewer per year, back in the late nineties or early 2000's) in the official stats that DOJ releases every year. These may have been egregious applications deliberately submitted so as to give the appearance that the system worked; or they may have been applications which the DOJ thought would pass muster but which didn't pass scrutiny.

      If we call for more rejections then a higher number of applications will be made and some of the egregious ones will be approved thus further eroding liberty.

      There is no good solution to this; the current situation is unsatisfactory.

      1. CatoTheElder   12 years ago

        The only good thing about FISA is that at least the DOJ had to at least pretend that 4th Amendment was binding.

        It's long past time to recognize that the Bill of Rights in its entirety is a dead letter.

        I would not at all be surprised if Obama decided to quarter soldiers in private dwellings without owners' consent. That's the only amendment that doesn't seem to be actively violated.

        1. Bill   12 years ago

          Does using eminent domain to take people's property and use it to house soldiers count? Because that would be legal-ish.

  8. Floating Weightless   12 years ago

    There is no hope for society; there is no happy ending.

  9. kinnath   12 years ago

    If you can't beat them, join them.

    I wonder if the NSA/FBI/DOJ needs any aging engineers to help them data mine the billions of records that they are collecting.

    1. Boba Fudd   12 years ago

      Get in while you can. They'll give you an extra share of chocolate each day. And less vigorous lashing.

      1. Aresen   12 years ago

        You will still wind up in Room 101 eventually.

        1. fish   12 years ago

          Is that where they keep the chocolate?

          1. grey   12 years ago

            The caged rats I think?

          2. Boba Fudd   12 years ago

            You'll get a ration of 20 grammes, increased from 30 grammes by the Ministry of Plenty.

    2. Brett L   12 years ago

      BuSab agent kinnath, report for duty!

  10. Aresen   12 years ago

    Anyone here remember when libertarians were being accused of 'fear-mongering' for predicting that this would happen?

    1. kinnath   12 years ago

      Still are.

      1. Sevo   12 years ago

        "Still are."
        Absolutely!
        These so-called scandals only mean the chosen one is delayed in his work of saving the planet and the world's people!

    2. Tonio   12 years ago

      Yes, and those predictions have gone down the memory hole of everyone except libertarians.

    3. Gbob   12 years ago

      Look you people are the same kind of nuts who keep all crying out, all chicken little like, that if we give government too much power they might abuse it, like using the IRS as a tool against political enemies. Or using government goons to spy on reporters. Or force all citizens to carry identification papers. Or restrict our travel across borders. Or spy on every electronic communication we engage in.

      Obviously these things never happened, otherwise we would have had a revolution.

      Stop fear mongering.

      1. CatoTheElder   12 years ago

        Let's call the Real ID what it really is: an internal passport.

        That's what US anticommunist propaganda called the mandatory Russian identification papers.

        1. grey   12 years ago

          Surely nobody is stupid enough to float the idea of an internal passport.

          I just want my happy neocon ignorance back. Fuck, fuckety, fuck fuck, fuck.

  11. GLK   12 years ago

    The mice will win eventually, but in the meantime the cats will be well fed.

    1. space junk   12 years ago

      The mice will only win if they reject entrenched politicians on a large scale at voting time. The mice also need to stop identifying themselves with a political party. State of mind means a hell of a lot more than Republican or Democrat.

  12. Lord Humungus   12 years ago

    someone with more time on his hands than me (haha!) should collect the libs response when this same story broke in 2006.

  13. Ken Shultz   12 years ago

    The Obama Administration is responding.

    From the Wall Street Journal:

    "The Obama administration called government review of complete phone records of U.S. customers a "critical tool" in protecting the public from terrorists.

    The information "allows counterterrorism personnel to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities, particularly people located inside the United States," a senior Obama administration official said Thursday."

    http://online.wsj.com/article/.....98922.html

    1. Ken Shultz   12 years ago

      "The Obama administration called government review of complete phone records of U.S. customers a "critical tool" in protecting the public from terrorists."

      So, this wasn't confined to just Verizon customers, right?

      All the phone companies are involved?

      1. Tonio   12 years ago

        Probably, but hard to determine for sure.

      2. Adam330   12 years ago

        Terrorists only use Verizon. That's a well-known fact.

        1. Rob M   12 years ago

          It is known.

    2. Sevo   12 years ago

      "The Obama administration called government review of complete phone records of U.S. customers a "critical tool" in protecting the public from terrorists."

      Parsed: 'We piss upon the 4th amendment'

      1. Ken Shultz   12 years ago

        It's complete contempt.

        He's daring Congress to impeach him.

        1. Sevo   12 years ago

          The dems will claim it really doesn't mean anything and 'rethuglicans!' besides!

        2. Tonio   12 years ago

          But no lawmaker wants to be seen as soft on terror.

          1. Libertymike   12 years ago

            Really?

            From a practical, electoral perspective, is there hard evidence to support the proposition that a lawmaker is vulnerable if he is perceived by some neoconmen and neoconmen pressure groups as "soft on terror"?

            1. Ken Shultz   12 years ago

              There hasn't been yet!

              We're not going to hear that criticism coming from the Democrats--or people who support Obama. So the only place we'll get it is from the Republicans.

              The question is whether the Republicans are capable of generating that kind of criticism. A lot of those old line Republicans are the ones who made "soft on terrorism" their bread and butter during the Bush years. I'm not sure they've got it in them to withstand that kind of criticism.

              I hope I'm wrong. This is the kind of issue that Rand Paul could certainly distinguish himself on.

            2. Tonio   12 years ago

              This is just my opinion, LM. I didn't research it. And Sen. Paul immediately comes to mind as an example that I'm wrong that "no lawmaker" stands up for liberty.

              I wish there were enough senators and congressmen standing up for liberty that you could easily and completely demolish my opinion. Prove me wrong, please.

            3. Bill   12 years ago

              Why not? Being soft on anything from drugs to the Vietnam war, Iraq, Patriot Act, etc. has cost people elections for years. Whatever the latest scare tactic is, it usually works since the media will run with it to get market share (or due to the fear that they may lose market share). I'm sure there have been a few cases where people have won elections years later once a policy was seen as an overreaction, but I'm sure those are many fewer. Not that many laws get over-turned. They just make new laws tweaking the old.

    3. grey   12 years ago

      Wouldn't listening to the conversations in everyone's house and filtering for "hostile" ideas (you know, so we don't abuse any innocent person's liberty), also be a "critical cool"?

      If you don't have anything to hide...

      1. grey   12 years ago

        "critical tool"

  14. Geoff Nathan   12 years ago

    This just in: Diane Feinstein and Saxby Chambliss defended this crap because 'it works' (CNN just sent me a 'breaking news' notice thereof). Some people justify torture for the same reasons. And, of course, strip and body cavity searches of all public transportation passengers would 'work' too.
    Yechhhh. Don't tell me liberals are good on civil liberties.

    1. Sevo   12 years ago

      Geoff Nathan| 6.6.13 @ 12:24PM |#
      "This just in: Diane Feinstein and Saxby Chambliss defended this crap because 'it works'"

      Exactly! And if the rethugs want to do something about it, tough shit.
      A4? Screw it; means nothing to them.

      1. Jon Lester   12 years ago

        We still have to endure another year and a half of Zaxby's term.

        What will it take to get the wretched Dianne Feinstein out of our lives?

        1. mgd   12 years ago

          Term limits.

        2. fish   12 years ago

          What will it take to get the wretched Dianne Feinstein out of our lives?

          Satanic intervention!

          Even then there's no guarantee.

          1. Jon Lester   12 years ago

            I think I know what happens. California Republicans invariably nominate someone terrible, so all Boxer or Feinstein have to do is remind women that they're for "choice," other issues be damned.

            1. Sevo   12 years ago

              Jon Lester| 6.6.13 @ 2:18PM |#
              "I think I know what happens. California Republicans invariably nominate someone terrible,..."

              Hey, Romney can't run for CA office, but other than that, you got it.

    2. Bill   12 years ago

      This just in: They are not actually liberals. They are "progressives". Anything the government does is actually to help the little guy so it's A-OK!

  15. Tonio   12 years ago

    And even though it appears that only one application was rejected (see Ken's link), it is noteworthy that a significant number of applications were approved with modifications by the FISA court. I presume that these modifications were restrictions, not expansions of scope.

  16. prolefeed   12 years ago

    and only when a majority of lawmakers are consistent defenders of the Fourth Amendment no matter which major political party holds power at the moment

    You don't need a majority. You just need to hold the balance of power -- enough Senators willing to filibuster every piece of legislation that harms civil liberties, and to insert provisions in budget bills that rescind existing bad legislation, thus killing any spending bill that doesn't enhance civil liberties.

    Not at that tipping point yet, or even close to it.

    1. Bill Dalasio   12 years ago

      Budget bills? That's so passe. It's continuing resolutions. All the way down.

  17. JJK   12 years ago

    I was called a CONSTITUTION NUT for bringing up the 4th amendment over at HuffPost. Tow that party line, it doesn't matter what your true beliefs are!

    1. Libertymike   12 years ago

      At least they didn't ban you from posting as The Volokh Conspiracy did to me for posting the following in response to a comment from a former prosecutor who was besmirching the arguments of tax protesters:

      "Do you enjoy being a slave, slaver?"

    2. Bill Dalasio   12 years ago

      Well, rights only make sense if you're not the ones in power. And most of these idiots think vicariously that they're the ones in power (rather than just people inclined to agree with them). Whatssmore, they think their grip on power is now permanent.

  18. BLEEDINELL   12 years ago

    Until we starve the beast, the shenanigans will continue. On the bright side, most of those working for gubmint don't have a fuckin clue what we're all really up to.

  19. Brett L   12 years ago

    There's a nice spreadsheet here of who voted for what PATRIOT Act stuff when. You know, in case anyone wants to get an early start on 2014 midterm insurgencies.

  20. db   12 years ago

    Somebody here yesterday mentioned that FISA was intended to control Federal surveillance activities. It's not really the case. Like most authorizing legislation, the intent is to give a legal framework for the Federal government to do things that were previously thought to be prohibited. All it does is provide procedures and processes through which violating civil rights such as those guaranteed by the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.

    1. grey   12 years ago

      +1
      /thank you

    2. CatoTheElder   12 years ago

      But since the Bush Administration, the DOJ has determined that FISA process is too much trouble. Why should our diligent, hardworking public servants have to fill out paperwork when they can be out there violating the fundamental rights of citizens and non-citizens alike?

  21. dianajakob2   12 years ago

    as Brandon implied I can't believe that people able to make $9564 in 4 weeks on the internet. did you read this web site Go to site and open Home for details
    http://WWW.JOBS34.COM

  22. dianajakob2   12 years ago

    If you think Pamela`s story is amazing..., last munth my moms girlfriend also earnt $5792 putting in thirteen hours a week in their apartment and their buddy's mom`s neighbour has done this for 4 months and actually earned over $5792 parttime on-line. the advice from this website... Go to site and open Home for details
    http://WWW.JOBS34.COM

  23. Bruce Majors   12 years ago

    Breaking - at today's White House briefing, when asked about the skeletal remains of recently missing children found in the Rose Garden, Jay Carney answered that Nixon had sent many young men to die in Viet Nam, and that John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer, though Democrats, were white.

  24. audreyblake4   12 years ago

    before I looked at the receipt 4 $9564, I accept ...that...my brothers friend woz like trully taking home money parttime on their laptop.. there great aunt had bean doing this 4 only twentey months and as of now paid the morgage on there house and bourt a gorgeous opel. I went here, Go to site and open Home for details
    http://WWW.JOBS34.COM

  25. audreyblake4   12 years ago

    If you think Brandon`s story is impressive,, a month ago my sisters father in law basically got a cheque for $6920 working a seventeen hour week from their apartment and they're buddy's sister`s neighbour has done this for nine months and got over $6920 parttime at there labtop. applie the instructions available at this link, Go to site and open Home for details
    http://WWW.JOBS34.COM

  26. audreyblake4   12 years ago

    If you think Sandra`s story is astonishing,, one week ago my brothers father in law basically also actually earnt $4748 sitting there fourteen hours a week in their apartment and there neighbor's step-mother`s neighbour was doing this for six months and brought home more than $4748 part time on-line. applie the advice available on this page... Go to site and open Home for details
    http://WWW.JOBS34.COM

Please log in to post comments

Mute this user?

  • Mute User
  • Cancel

Ban this user?

  • Ban User
  • Cancel

Un-ban this user?

  • Un-ban User
  • Cancel

Nuke this user?

  • Nuke User
  • Cancel

Un-nuke this user?

  • Un-nuke User
  • Cancel

Flag this comment?

  • Flag Comment
  • Cancel

Un-flag this comment?

  • Un-flag Comment
  • Cancel

Latest

In Dangerous Times, Train for Self-Defense

J.D. Tuccille | 6.2.2025 7:00 AM

Welcoming Anti-Trump Liberals to the Free Trade Club

Katherine Mangu-Ward | From the July 2025 issue

Brickbat: Armed, Elderly, and Dangerous

Charles Oliver | 6.2.2025 4:00 AM

How Trump's Tariffs and Immigration Policies Could Make Housing Even More Expensive

M. Nolan Gray | From the July 2025 issue

Photo: Dire Wolf De-extinction

Ronald Bailey | From the July 2025 issue

Recommended

  • About
  • Browse Topics
  • Events
  • Staff
  • Jobs
  • Donate
  • Advertise
  • Subscribe
  • Contact
  • Media
  • Shop
  • Amazon
Reason Facebook@reason on XReason InstagramReason TikTokReason YoutubeApple PodcastsReason on FlipboardReason RSS

© 2024 Reason Foundation | Accessibility | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.

r

Do you care about free minds and free markets? Sign up to get the biggest stories from Reason in your inbox every afternoon.

This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged.

This modal will close in 10

Reason Plus

Special Offer!

  • Full digital edition access
  • No ads
  • Commenting privileges

Just $25 per year

Join Today!