Online Poker and Steven Levitt's Daughter
University of Chicago economist Steven Levitt, who says his wife "is kind of a semi-professional poker player," is upset about the Justice Department's crackdown on the online version of the game. "I think it makes no sense at all," he says in a recent Freakonomics radio segment. Unfortunately, he continues after that:
Most things that are made illegal, everyone agrees on—homicide, theft. There's just general agreement. And then there's this other set of activities which fall into a gray area, things like prostitution and gambling—not everyone agrees. But I think poker is so obviously on one side of the gray area relative to legality that it just doesn't make any sense to make it illegal.
Why is poker so obviously on the other side? Because it passes Levitt's "daughter test":
If the prohibited activity is something that I actually think would be good for my daughter to do, then I'm in favor of it being legal. But if the activity is something which I would feel terrible if my daughter did, then I would want it to be illegal.
Since Levitt is fine with the idea of his daughter as a professional poker player, poker should be legal. Since he is not fine with the idea of his daughter as a prostitute, he says, prostitution should be illegal, even though intellectually he is inclined to think, "Why shouldn't prostitution be legal? It's a transaction between two individuals." In case you find the daughter test unsatisfying, Levitt, prodded by his interviewer, throws in some mumbo-jumbo about externalities:
When we think about prohibiting activities, we do [that] either because they directly harm someone else, like homicide or theft, or because indirectly there are spillovers that hurt other people. So we think that drug addiction, for instance, imposes costs on other people, or people argue that secondhand smoke imposes costs on others. If you think about poker…it's hard to see how [the externalities] could be very large, especially when there are sanctioned kinds of gambling that people are allowed to do, like lotteries, which pay out at much worse rates than do poker sites. The easiest message to draw from this is that the kinds of gambling which the government outlaws are those kinds of gambling which the government does not directly financially benefit from.
Levitt is onto something with that last point, although I would add that the financial interests of politically influential businesses (such as Las Vegas casinos and horsetrack operators) are important too. But his daughter test is utterly arbitrary, since other people might well be horrified at the idea of their offspring becoming professional poker players. Indeed, many Americans do not accept the distinction that Levitt draws between "gambling" (which he says falls into the "gray area") and poker (which he says clearly does not).
It's hard to know how seriously to take Levitt's daughter test, since at one point he says, "Would I be in favor of outlawing premarital sex? I probably would. Now that would be a hard law to enforce." But even if Levitt is trying to describe the reasoning of other people who support paternalistic laws, I would guess that the "me test" is more common: If the prohibited activity is something I enjoy, it should be legal. I actually prefer that rule, which is just as arbitrary but without the pretense of fatherly concern.
Levitt (obviously) is not a moral philosopher, but he is an economist. Yet his discussion of the externality rationale for paternalistic laws is even less coherent than his explication of the daughter test. People do claim that drug use imposes costs on third parties, but they claim the same thing about gambling, including poker. Indeed, a similar claim could be made about any activity that can be carried to excess: It disrupts relationships, degrades work performance, fosters crime, etc. If that argument, which I call "the addict's veto," is enough to justify prohibition, pretty much everything falls into Levitt's "gray area."
Levitt argues that poker's social costs can't be very big, especially since lotteries are legal. But that's a non sequitur: Maybe the social costs of both are substantial, and the right policy is to ban both, which is the position of many anti-gambling activists. After all, Levitt starts from the (correct) premise that existing laws are not necessarily rational or consistent. Speaking of which, his suggestion that drug prohibition is (or might be) justified by externalities raises the obvious question of why alcohol should be legal. Perhaps because Levitt does not mind if his daughter drinks when she grows up but would be terribly upset if she smoked pot or snorted cocaine.
Addendum: A recent study that Levitt co-authored provided evidence that poker is a game of skill. I think there's no serious question that skill matters a lot in poker over the long run, but that does not necessarily resolve the issue of whether poker counts as gambling under state laws. The most common legal test is whether chance is "the dominating element," which leaves room for argument. More important, this distinction is morally irrelevant as a justification for prohibiting consensual interactions between adults.
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The daughter test. Substituting emotions for rational thought.
90+% of people do this, unfortunately. And it's not going to change.
FOR TEH CHILDRUNS!!!
I once told my parents that I wanted to be a doctor or a lawyer. Their reaction could best be described as "ohsweetjesusnoanythingbutthat".
They didn't want me to run up debt and face uncertain odds in order to work in a career they were fairly certain I'd hate and which would leave me with no time to have a life outside of work.
I suppose, by Levitt's "reasoning", my parents have the right to ban, what?, the medical and legal professions. And if two people are not enough for that, just how many people wanting to stick their oars in would be necessary to pass a law?
And if two people are not enough for that, just how many people wanting to stick their oars in would be necessary to pass a law?
535? 635?
90+% of people do this
a) Did you pull that statistic out of your ass?
b) Did you enjoy it?
So, so true.
And it's so much more condescending than the "me test". At least we actually have ownership of ourselves - in the "daughter test", he wants to use the government to control his daughter's life. Into adulthood.
It doesn't matter that he presumably loves his daughter. He still sees her actions as a reflection of his honour- see the "sure, I'd be okay with the government forcing her to be a virgin if I thought it could do that".
What ever it takes to keep her OFF THE POLE!!!
It's funny because I have the exact opposite line of thinking for your daughter.
So if enough of us want to vote for Leavitt's daughter to be a stripper, we can force her into that profession?
Funny how that coercion thingy goes in ways you don't like once you start allowing it.
I'm sorry, could you say that louder, and into my collar?
They're using poles, but not the right way
he wants to use the government to control his daughter's life. Into adulthood
Much worse than that. He wants to use his paternalistic instincts to justify controlling everyone's daughter's life into adulthood.
I must say I lost more than a little respect for him from reading that passage.
If it saves just one child, it's worth it!
Recently New Hampshire tried to eliminate annual vehicle inspections. There's no evidence they make the roads safer, and only 23 states have such a requirement. But some legislator said he didn't care what other states do, he had three good reasons to keep the requirement: his three granddaughters. Where's barfman when you need him ?
(sitting in for barfman)
*barf*
Just doing what I can to help out the Reason-o-sphere...
Thank You.
and just to be clear, I do feel sorry for the granddaughters, that their grandpa is a statist douche bag.
I'm guessing his granddaughters run a mechanics shop with a sweet little side business doing mandatory vehicle inspections.
I heard that on the radio last night. Very quickly lost any respect I might have had for Leavett (I usually thing the Freakonomics stuff is pretty interesting).
The daughter test needs on further step: supposing your daughter did, for one reason or another, become a prostitute. DO you want her repeatedly arrested, abused by pimps and quite likely raped and abused by the police? That's the question you need to ask.
Empirical proof that a University of Chicago economist can be dumb, I guess. It's particularly lame that he thinks he (or "society") ought to be able to force his daughter to be a virgin.
Let me be clear, their con-law professors are also pretty dumb.
I would not want my daughter to be a University of Chicago economist.
The "Daughter Test" fails because the American citizenry is not his child.
A better test for laws would be what I would like to propose as "The Older Sister Test". It goes like this:
"If my older sister was doing this, would I want the government to throw her in jail for it?"
An even better test: the "Would You be Willing to Personally Enforce This on Someone You Like?" test.
I've yet to meet someone calling for higher taxes or whatnot who will admit to be willing to personally carry a gun and point it at their neighbor and thus collect the money for their favorite program, or personally lock them up in a cage if they refuse.
Immorality is much easier when done by proxies who you don't have to watch in action, so you don't have to contemplate what you did.
What's so dumb about him? His main point is that although some things are in a gray area, online poker is not. Since the things in the gray area are already illegal, what's he doing? He's arguing to make (or keep) something legal. All the rest is just to gain people's trust, to show that he's a reasonable guy who can admit to arguments in favor of banning some things, not a dogmatist. We need more people arguing stuff like him.
these days, the sex industry may be the only growing market.
http://www.reuters.com/article.....5K20110518
Lack of regulation for black markets, etc...
There's also MMJ.
I think pretty much everybody uses the me test to decide what they think should be legal, and it's difficult for them to think in another way. For example, I was having a conversation in a bar with a cigarette smoker, and he was bitching about the new law (in Michigan) that outlawed smoking in bars, and he said, oh but you're happy, because you don't smoke. He couldn't understand that even though I don't smoke, and I hate smoke in bars and restaurants, that I still think it should be legal.
Exactly. I don't smoke, and I hate being around cigarette smoke. But I have no problem with restaurants and bars deciding for themselves in people may or may not smoke in their establishments. Don't like their policy? Don't visit or work there. It's not that hard. I'm sure plenty of restaurants would realize that non-smokers don't want to be covered in cigarette smoke and will ban smoking in their restaurants anyway.
I have a hard time trying to get my roommates to understand the concept of property rights and voluntary exchange when it comes to issues like this.
Try reading some NYT comments on a smoking article sometime. "But what about MY RIGHT to have a smoke-free environment!!!" gets repeated more than anything else.
people DO have a right to a smoke free environment - in THEIR environment iow the property THEY own
the problem is when the state says that bars etc. which are private establishments must be smoke free
consumers can choose not to go to bars that allow smoking, and bar owners can choose to run a smokey or smoke free establishment
choice...that's what matters. free of govt. interference
i would argue that government facilities e.g. the DMV etc. are reasonably restricted to smoke free. although they should give out free valium
I tend to get blank stares when I explain this to people. You absolutely do have a right not to be exposed to tobacco smoke. And you can exercise that right by not allowing smoking in your home and not going to places where people smoke.
And hey, we'll even pass a law that say that those No Smoking signs are legally binding when displayed on your premises. Still your choice to display the signs or not.
prior to the smoking ban being passed around here, there WERE a couple of bars that banned smoking. good for them.
choice
Before the smoking ban went into effect in NH, none of the restaurants in the town I live in allowed smoking except the weird Chinese place, and they probably still do. I guess some people actually believe that it is better to be forced to do the "right" thing than to have people do it voluntarily.
Surprised none of the trimvirate have been in to explain how you're all actually nazis who want babies to get cancer and claim that someone smoking on a sidewalk who might blow smoke toward them invalidates all of your supposed "rights."
it's been pointed out that in the city of Seattle due to the proximity of building entrances and the ordinance prohibiting smoking within (iirc ) 25 ft of a building entranceway, that effectively makes it illegal to smoke while walking down the sidewalk.
cops, fortunately ignore this CIVIL INFRACTION. it's the perfect example of a law that liberals like - broad, ridiculous, statist, and prone to selective enforcement
Unfortunately, they don't ignore the "civil infraction" of whittling on a piece of wood down the street.
actually, the cop believed he was enforcing the seattle statute against blades over 3 1/2" and/or the brandishing statute
he was of course WRONG. but that's another story. nice reference, though
A lot of people have the idea that as customers they have a right to have a business cater to their desires -- a particular business, or all businesses. Someone else's business, of course. Know about the Oak Beach Inn?
I remember having this conversation with a stripper in New Orleans who wanted to make alcohol illegal again, because of the drunkards in her family. My pointing out that plenty of people would, for the same reasoning, want to outlaw her profession, fell on deaf ears. Total disconnect.
I'd be horrified if my (hypothetical) daughter went into the clergy or worked for an organization advocating nanny-statism. Also, as for externalities, we need to deduct the (often heavy) social costs that occur precisely because something is illegal; otherwise, the analysis becomes an excercise in circular logic.
As a christian, I would be highly upset if my hypothetical daughter converted to Judaism, so that means....oh crap, just Godwined the thread.
^This^
my "this" was for Dr. Whom.
When you have children, you'll understand.
Your deformed mutant children born of rectal don't count, Commodore.
Are they even really children per se?
They're not human, so...no.
Just don't feed them after midnight. Or ever, really, but especially not after midnight.
After midnight in what timezone?
All of them.
HI-DEE-HO!
Won't someone please think of the children?
I do. All day long...
This is a joke, right?
Well, I never said that I understood...
I stand behind my proposal that laws to criminalize activity require a 90% vote to pass (and a 50% vote to rescind).
If you cant get 90% of the people to agree its a criminal activity, then it isnt.
Yes, we would still get bad laws, but a lot less of them.
I like this more and more. Also, good to hear from you again, robc!
I'm just smiling at the thought of all the things that would no longer be criminal (like gambling) and the frustration of the blue noses who can't ruin other people's enjoymnent with 50% + 1 of the vote.
I seriously doubt you're going to get 90% of people to approve police brutality laws.
Yup. Just have to charge them with regular ordinary assault then.
Police are obviously exempted from assault laws for actions during an arrest.
"obviously"?
I don't think that's "obvious" at all.
it's neither obvious nor true.
police have the same "exemption" from assault laws that anybody else does when they are acting lawfully.
for example. storeowners apprehending shoplifters can put hands on, and even handcuff offenders.
that's not an assault, even though it's an "unwanted touching" since it's a LAWFUL touching to achieve a lawful purpose.
heck, i had a case where a guy pushed his wife down and grabbed the keys from her hand (she was drunk and trying to drive off) to prevent her from drunk driving. she suffered injury
it wasn't an "assault" because he had a lawful purpose that overrode the "unwanted touching" and the prosecutor agreed.
of somebody is trespassing on your property or stealing your car, again you can use lawful force that is not an assault, that WOULD be an assault if done against a person for no legitimate purpose
the primary difference between the storekeeper example and the cop example is that cops enjoy more CIVIL immunity (that's why storekeepers are only supposed to detain for theft if they have witnessed the theft or have very strong PC, but a cop can detain under Terry v. Ohio for reasonable suspicion), but as to the criminal aspect of assault, it's very similar
in fact, in many cases, non-cops are given far MORE leeway in force situations because of their lack of training.
a perfect example is a guy i know who ran up to assist a cop in arresting a resistant subject. the guy is VERY strong and ended up breaking the arrestees arm quite severely. he wasn't charged at all, and the prosecutor (correctly) said that
1) he had no criminal intent
2) he had no training whatsoever in any sort of arrest tactics and thus had to be held to a lower standard than a cop if the cop had broken the guy's arm
in fact, in many cases, non-cops are given far MORE leeway in force situations because of their lack of training.
And in other cases, less leeway. For example, Im pretty sure I would get charged with murder if I shot someone in the back for whittling.
and as i've said 1000 times... that case is a travesty and the problem is that the RCW in a specific instance like that does not allow the cop to be charged.
that's an excellent example, and it's why i said the shooting was unjustified AND if there was legal authority (which there isn't) he should be charged.
it is a good counterexample.
to say he shot him in the back for whittling is somewhat disingenuous as to the fact pattern (i went to the inquest btw) but we can both agree the shooting was awful, unjustified and in a perfect world - prosecutable
OH, I get it now, dunphy. They are just "following orders" when they don't charge a cop for murdering an innocent person?
Bullshit. That cop could have been charged. The interpretation of the law was what kept it from happening. If I had confronted the guy and shot him in the same manner the cop did, I'd be sitting in a 6x6 right now.
no, again, there is a specific RCW that addresses this and only applies to deadly force. and you are right. the law does NOT apply to anybody but police officers. you can disagree with the law... the remedy is to change it
but satterberg acted correctly - within the law. as a prosecutor is supposed to
oh, and it has nothing to do with following orders. this cop wasn't following training OR orders. he was an idiot and IF the law allowed it, should have been charged with 2nd degree manslaughter
sloopy, while I don't remember the details now, dunphy has previously given a very thorough explaination for why that murderer cop could not be prosecuted. IIRC, he also stated that he disagreed with the law that prohibited a prosecution.
As for your "following orders" comment, Prosecutors generally are not allowed to illegally prosecute someone. Even when the law is completely unjust, such as this case, they are bound to follow it.
thank you. that's exactly my point. rule of law matters, even when the law is ... wait for it... an ass.
prosecutors must, in a nod to rumsfeld, prosecute the laws they have, not those they wished they had.
imo, under the MODEL penal code, the cop committed at least 2nd degree manslaughter (death by criminal negligence) but under the RCW could not be prosecuted due to a law I already cited.
the cop was of course not following orders. he used bad tactics, that imo rose to the level of criminal negligence and thus "in a perfect world" he would be charged.
however, prosecutors should not charge somebody, and cannot under their ethical code, under the circumstances present considering the contravening laws.
"the primary difference between the storekeeper example and the cop example is that cops enjoy more CIVIL immunity"
Boy do they ever. Eat shit, by the way, you useless pig.
And while I said people up above, its 90% of legislatures. Im not getting rid of the republican form of government.
Would 90 (there are 100 in my state house) reps vote for police brutality laws? No idea, bet it would be close though.
you mean the laws that already exist? why would they be redundant?
Reading comprehension problems much? We are talking about a world with the 90% requirement, not our current one.
we already have "police brutality" laws. they are the same laws that apply to everybody - including cops... it's called "the penal code".
hth
see my later post
Right, becaue prosecutors are just as likley to charge cops and because cops will never cover for each other. All they do is conduct their own 'internal investigation' and conclude that 'procedures were followed' - nevermind a 'civilian' doing the same thing would end up in jail. Sorry, I call bullshit based on years of reading Balko.
dunphy is right. We do have laws on the books for police brutality. Unfortunately, the police are charged with investigating their own, so charges are rarely brought. Also, cops are much more likely to not ticket a fellow officer for offenses they would charge any other person with. I believe the phrase "professional courtesy" is used for a reason.
Seriously, dunphy. You can't for a second believe that cops have to deal with the law in any way remotely close to how real people do.
actually, in some ways they have more to fear
1) cops have to worry about dual sovereignty far more. even when they are found not guilty in state court, they are much more likely to be charged federally - see e.g. the rodney king case and many others. whatever one thinks about the case, the reality is they were tried twice for the same act. it may not technically be double jeopardy, but it is in reality
2) yes, it's correct cops sometimes get a courtesy for INFRACTIONS from other cops. for crimes? far less often. i work with several officers who were arrested and charged with DUI, so despite what you think... it's hardly rare
oh, also and ime in domestic violence cases, cops are MORE likely to be charged than non-cops. in fact, i work with one guy who fought for a year to get his job back based on a bogus prosecution, and finally did. furthermore, even a mere accusation and a protection order (civil with barely any due process) is an automatic firing in most cases - since they can no longer carry a gun
most cops i know are FAR more likely to avoid even the slight appearance of impropriety on or off duty because they know they won't get the same breaks a citizen would in the same situation.
i've had stuff happen off duty that if i wasn't a cop (and when i wasn't a cop) i would have responded, but because i';m a cop, i'd just rather not take the risk.
perfect example, a few weeks ago i had some asshole drunk fuckstick shove me aside at the bar. i just ignored him. if i wasn;t a cop... i wouldn't have.
about 5 minutes later, i saw him being forcefully ejected from the bar after he apparently did the same to another guy, and the guy responded like a normal (not a cop) would - shoved him back and the bouncers ended up ejecting the drunk asshole after looking into it.
we are generally held to a higher standard. i know this doesn't fit your metanarrative, but it's what i see all the time.
we are generally held to a higher standard. i know this doesn't fit your metanarrative, but it's what i see all the time.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Right. Because if I followed a guy to his house and then beat him with a metal baton 15 times and tazed his passenger and never charged them with even a moving violation, I'd only get charged with aggravated battery and get no jail time. Or if I got drunk and fired shots at my neighbor's house, I'd probably just be driven away and not been arrested or charged with shooting a gun at my neighbors' houses while shitfaced.
Yeah, a higher standard. You ought to do standup, dunphy. You're fucking hilarious.
and again, selection bias reigns. Yes, you can find individual counterexamples, especially in a nation the size of ours. the reality is that most cops i know go out of their way not to even create the appearance of impropriety because we know we get hammered for shit (administratively if not criminally on and off duty) for shit the average person doesn't even have to worry about
if i'm at a party and somebody smokes some bud. i have to leave. if i willingly hang out around it, and my admin finds out - i get in trouble.
if i get in some neighbor dispute or civil dispute i don't even personally get involved in any dispute because i will automatically be suspect as 'using my authority' or some other crap if an argument ensues. guys get jammed up for that crap all the time.
i know a cop who was jammed up for some bar incident that never would have even crossed the radar if he wasn't a cop. the only thing that saved him was that he personally sought out surveillance video at a neighboring business the cops had overlooked that helped exonerate him
i know your metanarrative is informed by selection bias. it's to be expected. i thought much the same until i saw the system from the inside.
"Individual counterexamples," dunphy-pig? Sounds a bit like "isolated incident" to me, which we all know is a load of crap.
no, it sounds like reality. the reality is that cops are (myself included) constantly forced to modify behavior especially in public that we could do freely if we were civilians because we are held to a higher standard.
for example... my state has NO public intoxication law. there have been cops disciplined for OFF DUTY, being extremely intoxicated in downtown seattle on multiple occasions
committing a crime? no
victimizing anybody? no
but merely by being super intoxicated, they committed 'conduct unbecoming' and were disciplined.
that kind of shit.
fuck , one podunk apt disciplined a cop for NOT MOWING HIS LAWN.
Individual counterexamples
When do the overwhelming number of these examples cease being individual and start being a pattern? The real world has reached that threshold. You seem to keep ignoring it.
considering that i can show numerous counterexamples of cops being treated MORE harshly and like in the examples i gave - being wrongly fired and prosecuted BECAUSE they were a cop, it's not as simple as you think
also, the real world (in our country) overwhelmingly is supportive of police and respects them. you can ignore that all you want, but that's REALITY
despite the narrative here, the media hardly fawns over cops- every other cop show deals with crooked cops, for instance- from episodes of law and order to movies, to etc.
despite that, most people respect us.
so, what threshold IS this exactly that the real world is reaching?
Google searched: dui lowered against cop and got back 3,400,000 results. 8 of the 12 on the first page were about cops in specific cases that had dui charges reduced in the past 6 months.
Come on, dunphy. You don't really want to argue that cops get preferential treatment by fellow officers in dui, dv, traffic and other offenses, do you? Really?
no, but among other things i am arguing that MOST criminal cases never make the paper. i know 3 guys in my dept. arrested for dui. NONE of them were ever mentioned in the paper
i'm not claiming cops aren't more likely than the average joe to get a break for dui.
i am claiming they are hardly scot-free. many agencies will arrest ANYBODY for dui, cop, prosecutor, judge etc.
we had a supreme court judge in our state not only commit dui but hit and run as well
oh, also i concede 100% that cops get preferential treatment for traffic INFRACTIONs (vs. crimes)
that's a reality
it's a perk of the job. ditto for surgeons and nurses. i don't know any cop who would cite a surgeon or a nurse (who was in scrubs at least).
infractions? yes. as i said - we absolutely get preferential treatment.
life aint fair
i'm not claiming cops aren't more likely than the average joe to get a break for dui.
So you acknowledge that there is selective enforcement of the laws.
life aint fair
Yet, you are a part of the system that perpetuates the unfairness, yet are in the only profession that has the ability to make it fair. Therefore, I can say this with the utmost pride: Fuck you and your entire corrupt law enforcement apparatus. You should all die in a fire for treating yourselves differently better than real people.
of COURSE there is selective enforcement of the laws. a cop is less likely to get popped for a DUI than an average joe.
duh.
if you read my post again, you will see i never denied that. what i said is that prosecutors were far from loathe to charge cops with breaking the law, the feds generally jump over backwards to prosecute cops, and plenty of cops are willing to arrest fellow cops for dui
3 guys in my dept I KNOW OF have been arrested for dui. granted, one was fired recently for another offense, but you get the point
yes, cops tend to give favorable treatment to cops in traffic infractions and to a lesser extent - dui.
otoh, when it comes to DV's, etc. they tend to get harsher scrutiny
regardless, yes - that is a perk of police work. i am unlikely to get a speeding ticket. otoh, i very rarely speed, but if i get pulled over - absolutely true
again, life isn;'t fair and cops aren't perfect
Your entire post is basically trying to justify why the people entrusted to enforce the law feel entitled to treat themselves above the law. You are just like the pigs in "Animal Farm."
If a private company wants to give their employees 10% off on all purchases, I have no problem with that. If an agent of the state feels other agents of the state can break laws and not bear the same consequences as the general public, I do have a problem with that. If I don't like a store's policy, I can shop elsewhere. If I don't like the selective enforcement and general corruption by America's law enforcement, I'm just gonna be fucked.
And say what you want, but traffic tickets are expensive nowadays. Add to that the increased insurance premiums and that ticket I get and you don't can run me around $1000 bucks over the next couple of years. Now, you can chuckle to yourself and say "life ain't fair" while you are one of the people entrusted by the public to ensure that it is fair. That doesn't change the fact that that's bullshit, and while not a huge expense to me, that $1000 can be devastating to some other poor schlub you ticket after letting your fellow boy in blue off for the same offense.
We all know cops aren't perfect. We don't expect them to be, since they are human. All we ask for is they they enforce the laws fairly and without bias. What you guys do is institutionalized discrimination, plain and simple. You feel like your authority and position place you outside the bounds of the law in many instances. No wonder your group is distrusted, despised and feared by a huge majority of people.
i never "justified" it. i said it was reality that in SOME respect cops get breaks (mostly civil traffic infractions) and in SOME cases, they get harsher treatment/more scrutiny.
i can reference the specific case of a guy who was fired and prosecuted for a "dV" that was entirely bogus essentially because he was a cop. in fact, one of the reason he sued and got his job back and backpay (after the case was thrown out) was because there was strong evidence that not only was he not guilty, but that it was a vendetta against him BECAUSE he was a cop
furthermore, the "victim" who lied to get him in trouble was never prosecuted, because like i said, prosecutors don't want to prosecute lying non-DV victims because it's politically incorrect.
first of all, prosecutors are plenty capable and willing to charge cops when they have sufficient evidence to charge, and i've seen it happen here numerous times.
and yes, some bad cops cover for other bad cops. just like in the outside world, some people lie.
i mean... amazing.
and yes, some bad cops cover for other bad cops. just like in the outside world, some people lie.
Right. And if I lie, a customer might get screwed out of a few thousand dollars, of which he can sue for recompense if he finds out about it. When a cop lies, he often sends an innocent person to jail or enables a fellow cop to evade prosecution, thereby destroying the principle of "equal protection under the law."
I mean...amazing.
there is a huge difference between lying to cover up for another cop over some offense and lying to help convict somebody etc.
and you don't think citizens lie ALL THE FUCKING time in criminal prosecutions, not to mention defense attorneys, etc.?
i had a defense attorney basically suborn perjury just last week and of course the prosecutors did nothing since it's pretty much expected for them to do shit like that.
the reality is that cops are human. a small percentage are venal, liars, and etc.
the reality is most are not.
'victims' lie all the fucking time. we see it in rape cases dv cases, robbery cases, burglary cases, etc.. did crystal mangum ever get prosecuted? of course not (*now she is arrested for murder, so there you go)
i'll tell you prosecutors are way less likely to go after a fake DV victim who lied vs a cop who did. the former is way too politically incorrect.
Well, I'll consider your argument valid when the testimony of every other witness is treated the same as a cop's infallible testimony in a court of law.
As far as there being a difference lying to cover up for another cop and lying to put someone in prison. No, I do not see the difference because both are done to intentionally undermine equal justice.
i see a huge difference because the former doesn't put innocents in jeopardy of jail/prison whereas when victims, witnesses etc. lie in court it usually does
furthermore, credibility of a witness is ultimately a test for JURIES.
you can argue that juries shouldn't give cops more credit than johnny scumbag with 6 felony convictions, but the reality is - they do.
blame your fellow citizens. i don't
If I'm sitting in the jury pool during voir dire and I say that I think that police often lie while testifying, I'll get bounced from the pool.
The system is deliberately set up to weed out from the process anyone who would regard a cop as no more credible than the accused.
So I blame the court process and not my fellow citizens.
i've personally never seen such a question during voir dire, and so what... lie if it bothers you so much AND the question comes up. i've never heard it come up. but it's not beyond the realm of possibility
i've never ever lied in court and never will. some cops do lie in court.
Pretty quick to toss out the "lie if it bothers you so much...," eh dunphy?
Hey, asshole. Some of us take swearing an oath seriously and would never lie after swearing one.
great, and neither would i. and HAVE you ever heard that question during voir dire? i never have
Actually, the last time I was on jury duty, they asked if anyone had had heard of a local case where a cop was accused of lying to a judge to get a warrant. When four people raised their hand, the prosecutor asked each one if it would affect their ability to be impartial. 2 said yes and were excused immediately. 2 said no and were excused a bit later...by the prosecution. Of course, I was the last one to be booted because I said the city's permitting process was arbitrary and unfair when they asked if any of us had felt the permitting process was confusing.
*It was a negligence case against the city where someone having a block party hung a chain across the road and some dumbass ran into it on his motorcycle. They had 4 road closed signs up, but the chain wasn't authorized. I wasn'r seated, so I don't know what role the liar of a pig cop had to do with the case.
ANYTHING that affects one's inability to be impartial is grounds for exclusion "for cause". that is not unique to cop stuff.
that's universal.
clearly,unless your internet persona is some sort of turing testrun of an unstable cop hating irrational ninny, you ARE biased, and you are not impartial in any way, shape or form. so... the system works
Actually, the last time I was on jury duty, they asked if anyone had had heard of a local case where a cop was accused of lying to a judge to get a warrant. When four people raised their hand, the prosecutor asked each one if it would affect their ability to be impartial. 2 said yes and were excused immediately. 2 said no and were excused a bit later...by the prosecution. Of course, I was the last one to be booted because I said the city's permitting process was arbitrary and unfair when they asked if any of us had felt the permitting process was confusing.
*It was a negligence case against the city where someone having a block party hung a chain across the road and some dumbass ran into it on his motorcycle. They had 4 road closed signs up, but the chain wasn't authorized. I wasn'r seated, so I don't know what role the liar of a pig cop had to do with the case.
oh, also and this is a completely ridiculous argument. you use as an example of how the process is skewed, a question that (at least almost) never comes up in voir dire as "proof" and furthermore, your answer DOES evidence bias which is a reason to exclude for cause. if you said "mechanics lie" or "attorneys lie" or etc. you would be equally excluded. if you said "sometimes some cops lie" otoh,i don't think you would. because that doesn't evidence bias.
The question is, is it bias or common sense? The jury is in fact expected to evaluate the credibility of witnesses, so wouldn't jurors who have well-formed conceptions of which types of witnesses are more credible be an asset to the trial?
I mean, if I get booted out of voir dire for opining that jailhouse snitches have an incentive to lie, that would be laughable, no? It's common sense that they have an incentive to lie. But I'm sure it would happen if that question were asked.
I would propose that every witness be hooked to a lie detector while on the stand and those records be read to the jury just prior to deliberation. How would you feel about that, dunphy?
I'd like to see the police unions reaction to that proposal. It'd be a fucking laugh riot.
lie detectors are insanely unreliable. that's why they are INADMISSIBLE IN COURT (at least in my state).
i know cops who have volunteered for them, as have others. i also know people personally who have lied through their teeth and passed a lie detector.
lie detectors can be a tool to scare people into confessiing, but in themselves as truth detectors? they suck
The feds use them for granting security clearances.
Robc, my compliments, this would be an excellent approach. Some things are obviously wrong and should be illegal: murder, rape, robbery, etc.
All nanny laws are stupid, counterproductive, wasteful, venal, and only enacted to strum the emotions of the herd.
I would make it 20% to rescind, and have an automatic sunset date on all laws of no greater than 5 years, so you have to have an ongoing 90% to keep laws on the books, not just a one-time 90%.
I wouldn't want my (non-existant) daughter (or son) to become a cop. That would horrify me beyond sanity. Ergo...
you're an idiot
thanx for playin'
Dat's some serious PWNAGE!!!1!12@1!!!!
3l33t!!!
Nope, just don't want to bring shame on my family name.
I might get why dunphy thinks it's idiotic. If good people stop becoming police (or veer their presumably-good kids away from it), then all we're left with on The Force is the powertripping, above-the-law, total scumbags.
I think we are already at the point where the force is so heavily populated with powertripping, above-the-law, total scumbags, that it is next to impossible for a good person to to survive on the force or avoid becoming corrupted.
i think your viewpoint is hopelessly skewed by selection bias, etc. i used to think the EXACT same thing. most cops were dumb thugs, etc. reality is far different. i know people who have quit far more lucrative careers because of a desire to serve. i work with tons of conscientious, smart, talented people
you simply have no idea
I think you are right, most cops probably are decent people who want to do good. But there are two large areas which make me feel as though my general disdain for police is justified.
The first is police unions and benevolent associations. These are, as far as I can see, truly evil organizations that will defend the indefensible if a cop is involved.
The second is the fact that even the good ones still have to enforce the bad laws. As far as I am concerned, arresting and imprisoning someone for drug possession or distribution or another consensual and victimless act is just as bad as locking them up arbitrarily for no reason at all. Now I gather that you (dunphy) think that drug prohibition is a bad idea, which is great. I wish all police were like you. But from my perspective, arresting people for any victimless, consensual "crime" definitely crosses the line beyond which just following orders or just doing the job is no defense. If you are under any circumstances willing to lock someone up for drugs, I cannot support what you do. Sorry.
I know that from a pragmatic standpoint some people have to be the police, and I am glad that there are people like you there. That's why I don't join in calling you nasty names as many here do. But this is where I draw the line. If you are ever willing to imprison someone, for any amount of time, for committing an act that harms no one else, you are wrong and I can't support what you do.
Actually, no one "has to" be the police.
there *is* no general disdain for the police. it's a false premise. don't let the reason microcosm infect your perception.
poll after poll show that people overwhelmingly (on a %age basis) respect police. police year after year come out in these polls as generally respected and admired. some careers like attorney and politician are on the opposite end of the scale.
and fwiw, *i* don't imprison anybody. juries have the absolute right of nullification, and legislators (and the people in states that have initiatives) also have the power to erase the WOD.
but again, this point comes up ad nauseum.
i respect soldiers. sometimes they have to fight wars they may not agree with.
i respect cops. sometimes (less than 2% of the time) i have to enforce drug laws.
i can and do live with that. i know that i'm in an honorable profession, where instead of wanking about how bad things are, i can make a difference and make them better. if you can do the same, good for you.
i could go back to being a firefighter, but even they are dutybound to at least report drug crap. heck, they reported a marijuana grow in a house they were putting a fire out in last year where i work.
i respect your opinion, fwiw, but i AM pragmatic and i accept that being a cop necessarily means i will sometimes enforce laws i don't agree with. i have discretion with minor violations, and i use it when i can
exactly. stuff like the knapp commission as well as serpico and his friend (damn if i can remember his name) attempts to outreach to "nontraditional" areas to recruit cops did a lot to help weed out corruption
who does more to improve the quality of police work? people who whine about cops on a blog commentlist, or good people who decide to become cops and be one of the good guys?
When this was blogged by David Henderson a couple weeks ago, the best comment was from Mr. Econotarian:
Its a version of the O'Rourke budget test: Would I shoot my mother to pave I-95?
nice reference. you beat me to it
Sort of a reverse Mitch Daniels test: would I incarcerate other people for years in jail for breaking a law that I personally have broken with essentially no consequences.
Yes, the Econotarian has a much better daughter test.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was yelling at the radio when I heard Levitt talking about this last night.
Wait, wait - laws are things that get broken and then people get put in jail? I thought they were like magic spells that you write down and then the structure of reality changes.
I haven't seen a picture of Levitt's daughter yet, so I'll withhold judgment on whether or not it's a good idea to keep her out of prostitution.
As to his thought process in general, let me think of the right words....mmm...."Fuck off, Levitt, you motherfucking slaver."
Isn't his daughter like seven years old? I remember the Freakonomics movie where he tried to trick her into using the toilet.
If the prohibited activity is something that I actually think would be good for my daughter to do, then I'm in favor of it being legal. But if the activity is something which I would feel terrible if my daughter did, then I would want it to be illegal.
How about if it's something you wouldn't want your daughter to go to prison for?
The "daughter test," that's brilliant. Everyone should be locked up in a basement until they're 30!
Bring Your Daughter to the Slaughter
I guess I have to go all Jezebel on the thread and point out that the daughter test is inherently sexist and patriarchal.
Levitt may think he can distinguish emotionally between the various motivations one naturally has for not wanting a daughter to become a prostitute, but I call Bullshit and say that he can't.
Sure, maybe he's just concerned. But maybe he also considers his daughter's sexuality his property, and is pissed off when she trades it without his approval.
The line between gentle fatherly concern and honor killing is pretty muddy, primarily because the emotions involve differ primarily in their intensity and not in their root.
Notice that he didn't propose a son test here.
I think he only has a daughter. However, the part about many father's feeling they "own" their female children's sexuality is so creepy and right-on and disgustingly true. Even at 24 I deal with that shit (seriously).
hence, a father "giving away the bride" at a wedding
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want his son to become a prostitute ether.
The most common legal test is whether chance is "the dominating element," which leaves room for argument.
I don't even understand that. I might win a hand, but I'll get destroyed by the pros in a poker tournament. When the top guys play each other, chance becomes more of a factor, but that's true in plenty of sports too. NCAA tournament games are often decided by a basket, a won coin flip in the NFL heavily favors a team in overtime, etc.
It's a game of chance because if I get dealt 4 aces in every hand I will win no matter how stupid I am.
Four aces? Ante and fold.
Until you get busted going all in against the straight flush.
or shot for cheating.
actually no. amateurs have dominated in major poker tourn's like the WSOP because
1) they vastly outnumber pros
2) at least for a time, their internet tactics weren't fully understood by the pro's (much less true now) and thus the pro's didn't have as much of an edge. the #1 edge in poker is knowing your opponent. by far. when i played (and won consistently until it was made illegal in my state), i kept very detailed stats on my opponents' betting patterns etc. that was the key to victory over all else. simply put, you gotta play a LAG differently than a PAG or a TAG
i kept very detailed stats on my opponents' betting patterns etc.
Legally obtained stats, right?
of course. you just keep track of what they do by watching them and using programs to keep track. entirely legal and in fact it's a good practice.
as referenced in rounders... if you look around the table and can;'t identify the sucker... it's probably you
All I could think of was you performing a stake-out a casino. Watching with binoculars from a nearby table. Maybe wearing a fake mustache.
lol... no. i was talking about online poker. MUCH more lucrative. could play several tables at once and just slowly bleed the bad players over time.
i also used programs like poker office etc. to keep detailed stats on opponents betting patterns.
then, the fuckstick nannystate leftwing assholes made online poker a C felonyt and i stopped playing
Does drunken cocksucking pass the daughter test, professor?
More importantly, does she pass the drunken cocksucking test?
I believe his daughter is 10.
It is Chicago, however.
OK, so we need to wait 6 or 8 years before the joke is funny.
OK, so we need to wait 6 or 8 2 or 3 years before the joke is funny.
FIFY
Apparently he also thinks his daughter shouldn't own a gun.
STEVE SMITH ALWAYS THINKING OF TEH CHILDRUNS! TASTY, TASTY CHILDRUNS!
Poker is different. Chance is much less important. Personality, the rules(who's first to act, etc.) are simply more important. It's not a game of what cards you play, but how you bet.
...and this is why libertarians are cute, but politically irrelevant. Levitt's point is stupid, but it's also how the vast majority of the electorate makes political choices. I'd wager that the majority of the men with daughters who will fuck a hooker today aren't in favor of their daughter's becoming hookers, or having it as a legal career option. Screaming that it's irrational is really besides the point, because real world policies have to count on getting popular support and buy-in from a largely irrational electorate. And to the realpolitik of Levitt's point, it would be demonstrably easier to get popular support for legalizing gambling than prostitution.
yes, libertarians tend to let pragmatism fall by the wayside with constent best is the enemy of the good arguments and failure to understand the oppositions' arguments, but instead just saying "they are dumb or evil" which is the same thing i see libs do a lot too.
the WOD is a perfect example. the reality is MOST people would be horrified, especially those with kids, of even considering legalization of "hard drugs". the emphasis needs to be on incrementalism e.g. MJ etc. and harm reduction strategies.
I think that most libertarians are willing to be somewhat pragmatic on the WOD (or at least take what you can get). I mean, I don't think many would say that MJ legalization should not be passed unless heroin is legalized at the same time.
But we still need to point out the ways in which the good can be the enemy of the perfect. For example decriminalization of drug possession is good in many ways. It keeps a lot of innocent (innocent in the moral sense, not a legal sense) people out of jail or from having a criminal record. But it does nothing to address the far more serious problems associated with prohibition. I fear, to some extent, that successful drives for decriminalization would cool off the drug law reform movement. Incremental is OK, but it needs to be incremental toward full, proper legalization, not just toward letting some stoners be less paranoid about the cops.
Except the people who support the WOD are dumb and/or evil. Easy enough. The oppositions' arguments are understandable: we want to control your actions. Apparently more than a hundred years of legalized "hard drugs" in this country isn't enough to satisfy the sheep.
except that's just dismissive elitism, not grounded in reality.
But he's not saying, "This is how the electorate makes decisions." That would be an astute, if regrettable, observation.
He's saying that's how HE PERSONALLY makes decisions. And that means that before we start talking about the electorate in general, we have to pause long enough to observe that Levitt himself is being a douche.
in general, the electorate wants to maintain the status quo.
that's the reflexive default stance on most stuff for most people.
the fact that drugs (well, ILLEGAL drugs obviously) are illegal and have been throughout the lifetime of most people is the most important reason why they believe drugs SHOULD be illegal.
people are comfortable with what they know in this respect... even if it's a miserable failure
Exactly. Since they have no special knowledge of the subject, they defer to history. Since these things were made illegal, there must've been good reasons to take such an extreme step.
This is how we analyze most issues of which we have no direct knowledge. Things now must be better than the way they were before, otherwise why would people have switched? Offer an older model or a newer model of something that the buyer has no expertise in, which will be chosen?
Did it ever occur to you that he's trying to persuade the electorate? And that if he didn't concede that there was a gray area, he would lose the confidence of most such people?
If everybody is practical all of the time, then there is no one to remind people what principles look like.
There are always people like that. No shortage, ever.
And fuck the realpolitik. People aren't libertarians because they want to be politically relevant. They are because they have moral principles and that is what they actually believe.
Everyone has some principles that they cannot tolerate being violated. For most libertarians, I think that prohibition of drugs, prostitution, gambling and such cross a line into totally unacceptable violations of essential rights.
But having those principles should lead one to want them followed in the real world... or at least followed more in the real world.
If you personally believe that drugs shouldn't be illegal, that matters little when you have no influence on the law.
I'd wager that the majority of the men with daughters who will fuck a hooker today aren't in favor of their daughter's becoming hookers, or having it as a legal career option.
Hypocrites be hypocrites. It's okay for someone else's daughter to do it (and him to do her) but not his own daughter. Fucking pathetic and morally bankrupt if you think about it.
Even thieves want their own stolen-fair-and-square property to be secure.
Remember the "7 Second Delay" benediction: "May this show succeed while those of all my buddies fail, and yet may I always be perceived as a team player."
I recall having heard basically the same argument used against lots of things that we take for granted today.
The degree to which chance influences the outcome of poker matches depends entirely on how many poker hands are involved.
I could beat the beat poker player in the world for an hour or two and not surprise anybody. Over a month playing eight hours a day every day, he'd pummel me.
This also happens to be true of a lot of competitions, athletic and otherwise. So relying on gov't being able to pin this down with any accuracy is foolish. Regardless of your opinion on legalization, a different standard should be in play than the current one.
to some extent. there is an infinitessimal chance you could beat Usain Bolt (sp?) in a best of 3 match for the 100 meters. (if he tripped and fell in 2 out of 3 trials lol)
there is an EXCELLENT chance you could beat ANY world class poker player in a best of 3 hands tournament , to make an equivalent example in terms of # of trials.
i used to play, and win poker - consistently. given sufficient "n" OF COURSE poker is a game of skill. and in the short term, luck plays a much larger factor.
i agree that poker *is* a skill game.
as is sports handicapping, etc.
the fact that some people can consistently win for years after years and have a mathematically quantifiable edge over 10's of thousands of hands points to skill... not luck. as did my success (before the liberals in my state made online poker a C felony).
this guy's "logic" is exactly what I was talking about in another thread - that when people have children, they tend to become less libertarian ime except when it comes to certain parental rights issues they hold dear (homeschooling, vouchers, etc.).
The only guy on here who would have a chance of beating Usain Bolt is you, dunphy. You could pull out your truncheon and beat him to within an inch of his life and never fear being prosecuted because the thick blue line would protect you by intimidating every witness, fabricating evidence and performing the investigation themselves.
ok, i'll give this one a .06 on the troll-o-meter
it was mildly amusing, it has a beat, and i can dance to it.
hang on sloopy... hang on
when people have children, they tend to become less libertarian
This is true, and understandable, but its a shame they don't stop and think about supporting a regime under which their child will live most of their lives as an adult without basic freedoms and respect.
true dat. i think that at least by UNDERSTANDING the psychology, we can better fight it with good arguments, and not the above version which was "they're all dumb and evul lol lol" which is the usual discourse.
there is certainly some time and space for the state to act in loco parentis, but there is also a need to respect individual autonomy far more than our state/nation does
stuff like the san fran happy meal ban makes me fucking angry
Don't fuck when you're angry.
It may be that they're over-confident that things will stop just...there!
I presume he thinks porn should be illegal too. Or at least he must believe it should be illegal for women to perform in porn films.
But then I suppose he would, if he was being completely honest, admit he'd feel terrible if his daughter became a day laborer, or hotel maid, or spent her life flipping burgers for that matter.
Did it ever occur to you that complete honesty (actually frankness in this case) is not the best policy? But let's say he did say that...so what? There's no danger that those occup'ns will be outlawed.
Ok, Robert, and your point is?
Did you seriously think I was worried that being a hotel maid might be outlawed? Come on, you can do better.
And what the hell does complete honesty not always being the best policy have to do with this??
The point was that if he was honest (or frank!) about what would make him feel terrible if his daughter ended up doing it, we'd see that even he doesn't take his self-described "daughter test" seriously.
The point is that nobody would understand the duaghter test that way, so such an extrapol'n is irrelevant.
The guy wants to persuade people to keep/make online poker legal, so he points out that even if you want to ban things you wouldn't want your daughter to do, nobody minds if their daughters play poker online. Even people who don't want their daughters to be hotel maids don't want that occup'n banned, so what people want for their daughters in that case is irrelevant.
Freakonomics was probably one of the most overrated non-fiction books of the 20-aughts.
"No wonder your group is distrusted, despised and feared by a huge majority of people"
Sloopy, you are outing yourself as either astoundingly ignorant... or a liar.
there is NO evidence for this claim. poll after poll (and yes, i have cited them before) show that is simply a lie.
So, put up or shut up. outside your narrow reasonoid audience, iow the real world - provide polling evidence to prove your point.
try : pollingdata.com etc. you are either a liar or astoundingly ignorant.
you have the right to your own opinion, but facts are facts. and you are wrong.
"No wonder your group is distrusted, despised and feared by a huge majority of people"
Sloopy, you are outing yourself as either astoundingly ignorant... or a liar.
there is NO evidence for this claim. poll after poll (and yes, i have cited them before) show that is simply a lie.
So, put up or shut up. outside your narrow reasonoid audience, iow the real world - provide polling evidence to prove your point.
try : pollingdata.com etc. you are either a liar or astoundingly ignorant.
you have the right to your own opinion, but facts are facts. and you are wrong.