Police

The FBI Cracks Down on Little Old Ladies With Plastic Bags

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Yesterday morning a dozen armed federal agents raided the home of Sharlotte Hydorn, a 91-year-old resident of Salem, Oregon, El Cajon, California, looking for evidence of "mail fraud." The evidence consisted of merchandise and records connected to her business, The GLADD Group, which sells suicide kits by mail. Each $60 kit consists of a plastic bag and clear plastic tubing that can be hooked up to a helium tank. Although there is nothing illegal about plastic bags or clear plastic tubing, even when they are put in the same box, the government presumably will argue that forbidden thoughts of death render them contraband in this context. Contrary to the common-sense understanding of fraud, the government thinks Hydorn is guilty of it precisely because her product works as intended.

Meanwhile, A.P. reports, Oregon legislators, outraged that a 29-year-old man in Eugene used one of Hydorn's kits to kill himself in March, "are working on a bill that would make it a felony to sell or transfer such a suicide kit to Oregonians." In Oregon, you are legally allowed to kill yourself, but only if you are officially certified as terminally ill, beg for permission from state-appointed medical gatekeepers, and take an overdose of doctor-prescribed barbiturates. This is known as Death With Dignity.

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  1. You’re stealing from the government if you off yourself.

    1. And they failed to kill her or any of her animals. Someone’s gonna get fired over this raid.

      1. note this was also a knock and announce warrant service. They knocked on the door, she answered and they came in

      2. I need to order a few of these devices and have them sent to Pelosi, Boehner, Obama, Gingrich, Trump… Never mind, we don’t have enough Helium on earth to cover all of the deserving.

    2. It’s a crime against society, which has taken all that time to educate you and build you roads.

      1. und trains!

    3. “You’re stealing from the government if you off yourself.”

      Not if you do it as soon as you stop paying in to Social Security and become eligible to draw it out.

      1. You may not be drawing from SSI if you off yourself, but I’m pretty sure the removal of a person from the consumer pool will have a substantial effect on interstate commerce.

  2. I tried killing myself by closing the garage door and sitting in a running vehicle. But it obviously didn’t work.

    Fuckin’ Prius.

    1. It’s funny because owning a Prius would make me want to kill myself!

      meh.

      1. While I think that a Prius could be a fine and practical vehicle for many purposes, I have to agree with you. Anything to avoid being mistaken for the sort of person who drives a Prius.

        1. You just gave me an idea for a business: Body kits to cover your Prius that make it look like a cooler car (e.g. a Pacer).

  3. The guy that wrote “You Light Up My Life” recently used an “exit bag”–to avoid prosecution, apparently.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05…..at-73.html

    1. You, light up my wife.

  4. And then you’ll be in a world of shit. Because CITIZENS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DIE WITHOUT PERMISSION!

    1. THIS is why we need government provided death panels. It’s for our own good you know.

  5. She’s lucky to still be alive.

    1. not really. the reason article doesn’t make the distinction, but this was not some sort of high speed SWAT dynamic entry, let alone a no-knock. they went to the door, knocked, and were let in.

      this is how most warrants should be executed. no-knocks should be rare, and need to be justified by substantial measures.

      you can certainly argue there was not probable cause to issue the warrant, but a judge signed it – so , he/she certainly thought there was.

      that’s a seperate issue

      1. I don’t think anyone’s arguing with the tactics in this case, just the overall strategy.

        1. i just thought the language was suggestive in the article here … as to the word “raided”.

          That’s at least suggestive of more than what happened.

          i would suggest a less provocative and more accurate way to state it was “FBI agents served a search warrant at”

          and I love how he said “armed” FBI .

          when is the FBI *not* armed. On duty, they are ALWAYS armed, just like cops, so saying “armed” FBI agents “raided” is exactly the sort of imprecise hysterical journalism that should give people pause. it evidences BIAS

          Raid (per dictionary.com)
          1.a sudden assault or attack, as upon something to be seized or suppressed: a police raid on a gambling ring.
          2. Military . a sudden attack on the enemy, as by air or by a small land force.
          3. a vigorous, large-scale effort to lure away a competitor’s employees, members, etc.

      2. Lighten up, dunphy. Srsly.

        1. read above. does reason.com need such hysterical suggestive journalism to make a point (they are predisposed to)?

          the (armed omg!!!) FBI agents went up to her front door and knocked and she let them in.

          but omg. ARMED FBI agents RAIDED her house

          jeez

    2. waterboard the old bitch till she fesses-up

    3. Does this mean that if a cop hears the sound of rustling plastic through your door, he can come in without a warrent to prevent you from destroying evidence?

  6. You’re stealing from the government if you off yourself.

    He had all his earnings ahead of him.

    *sighs*

  7. This reminds me of when I dropped out of college. As a courtesy I went to the admin office and told them I was leaving and wouldn’t be back (just so they wouldn’t worry about me). They gave me a stack of forms and told me to head around to all my professors and get a bunch of signatures. I actually had to explain to them that dropping out meant that, no, I was not going to fiddle around with any more of their forms. I left with a pleasant smile on my face knowing they were actually shocked to discover their bureaucratic BS no longer mattered.

    The state is utterly impotent when it comes to suicide. If someone wants to off themselves, no amount of making it illegal can make one whit of difference.

    1. while that is true, most suicide attempts (realizing that some “attempts’ are more a parasuicidal cry for help, then a bona fide attempt) are unsuccessful. i’ve responded to dozens, as well as involuntarily committed people who were an imminent risk of danger to themselves (such as weilding a knife and even cutting themself, or downing a bunch of pills or…).

      a study we read in grad school on suicide showed that the vast majority of people who survived most attempts (not so much the kind that are legalized in oregon, but the more spur of the moment kind, etc.) upon finding their attempt unsuccessful, were glad and found they weren’t so sure they wanted to kill themselves after all.

      i guess the “strict libertarian” position is that if a family member calls 911 because a person is lying on the ground w/ a suicide note next to them (assuming we could assure it was bona fide and not some sort of homicide in a split second), or was actively trying to commit suicide, or was threatening suicide, i guess the argument is – cops should not respond but should just go “that’s their decision/ we’re not coming. they can do whatever they want. have a nice day”

      i don’t play that.

      but the reality is – yes. if you are reasonably competent, and REALLY want to kill yourself, it’s not that difficult to do w/o being intervened on.

      i’ve had tons of cases where, for example, somebody will send a text message immediately before attempting, which gives us time to get there, render aid, etc. a bona fide attempt would not notify somebody else, as or immediately before, if they REALLY wanted to do it.

      regardless, that’s reality.

      1. i guess the “strict libertarian” position is…
        Suicide in Libertarian Mayberry:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..ata_player

    2. “If someone wants to off themselves, no amount of making it illegal can make one whit of difference.”

      I support your conclusions, but I think it would be wrong to assume that making relatively pain free suicide devices available on the internet dirt cheap? Wouldn’t entice some people to kill themselves who might not have done so otherwise.

      The results of a gun shot to the head aren’t always fatal, and the end result might even be worse than death. I read about a guy who survived shooting himself in the head–ended up in a constant state of confusion, just together enough to remember that he used to be normal, but spending much of his time shrieking in horror at rediscovering what had happened to him. I think people who try to kill themselves are generally aware that they might not be successful and it’s gonna hurt–and that’s a deterrent!

      If anything, I think that horror story might argue for the cause of sure fire devices like this–but there’s no sense in kidding ourselves. Some people will off themselves over some temporary loss–’cause their girlfriend dumped them or something…

      …and many of them wouldn’t have done it otherwise–if there hadn’t been a cheap, relatively painless way to do it freely available.

      It’s like gun rights. Just because I support people’s gun rights doesn’t mean I have to pretend no one is every going to use one to commit a crime.

      1. I support your conclusions, but I think it would be wrong to assume that making relatively pain free suicide devices available on the internet dirt cheap? Wouldn’t entice some people to kill themselves who might not have done so otherwise.

        …and?

        I disagree with Dunphy above. If someone wants to off themselves, even if it’s just a bullshit cry for help…well, too bad. You made the call.

        I bet we’d see a real reduction in the amount of “cry for help” suicides if the cry stopped generating so much reaction, like a child throwing a tantrum for the sole purpose of garnering attention. Stop giving the attention, and eventually the tantrums will stop.

        1. under various legal doctrines, cops (and firefighters) have a duty to respond to such calls. even IF i didn’t think it was important, it’s still the law.

          we can agree to disagree on this.

          regardless, if somebody wants to badly enough, they can do it, and nobody can stop them. if you want drama, you do it in front of other family members, etc.

          if you want success, you walk into the woods with the necessary equipment and ‘get er done’

          1. I understand it’s the law, and it has to be enforced as such. I’m saying I disagree with the fact that there’s a law saying citizens are not allowed to end their existence when they so choose, without permission from the state.

            To me, the anti-suicide laws are functionally saying that you are not a free or independent person; you are simply the property of the state.

            1. and again

              1 i support assisted suicide laws
              2) if you want to off yourself, NOBODY can stop you.

              if you are going to do it in some manner where cops, family members are available to intervene, they SHOULD do so

              if you still want to do it again, after you are detained in a hospital ime for on average about 4-6 hours, nobody can really stop you

              MOST of these attempts (granted, most of the time women but often men) are cries for help, as their after-statements and later thanks, etc. demonstrates.

              no ambulatory person is being prevented from doing it. if they REALLY want to, they can

              nobody, including the cops can stop you.

              it’s also not a crime (at least in my state) to try to do so, or to do so. it’s just that if you give us (medics, cops, etc.) a chance to intervene. we will. community caretaking standard, bla bla bla

              it’s a baseless worry.

              as for the non-ambulatory, chronically ill types – i support the legal right to suicide

        2. Thank you, Jim. I completely agree. There is a bridge in Seattle that people like to jump off of (or threaten to jump off of) and it pisses me right off when the cops feel the need to block traffic and stage some kind of intervention and/or sanctification of the hallowed ground after the fact. A person made a choice that should be none of the cops’ or my business; enough with the phony solemnity.

          1. There’s a bridge in Santa Barbara County that has several suicides a year. There are signs at either end of the bridge explaining that loitering is illegal. Gee, better not off myself here since I might have to pay a $30 fine…

            1. We’ve done you one better: they built a very expensive (and ugly) suicide fence. Because obviously there is nowhere else in the city a person could jump from. Idiots.

              1. It was such a pretty bridge, too.

                And be sure to eat at Cold Spring Tavern.

          2. there are plenty of ways you can make such a choice WITHOUT making a public spectacle of it.

            actions have consequences, and that includes jumping off a bridge.

            most suicides i’ve responded to are sad and private. jumping off a bridge evidences either a total ignorance of (iow you are stupid as fuck) or a desire to have your spectacle be as public as possible

            1. Not necessarily. The bridge in SB County extends over a gorge. You could squash yourself into the weeds and be there for weeks. The only sign of a suicide will be the circling vultures. (Literal vultures, not lawyers. Those will show up later.)

              1. fine. the aurora bridge, not so much

                1. Getting a little off-topic now, but isn’t the spectacle part of the point for some suicides? I’d argue that one of the necessary prerequisites for considering suicide is a sense of helplessness in the face of life’s daily trials. If you’re mad at the world and think you’ve gotten a raw deal on something (after all, it’s not your fault your life sucks, the world just made it suck to get under your skin), why not jump off a bridge and splash yourself all over a few lanes of traffic? The WORLD did this to me, so fuck ’em, they can mop up the pieces.

                  1. exactly. AND if you engage in such public display, complaining that the COPS made a spectacle by shutting the road down to investigate is (as usual) blaming the wrong party…

      2. Why do you want to deter people from killing themselves? The deterrent you speak of–knowledge of how difficult it is to successfully kill yourself while avoiding a fate worse than death–leads to abject misery.

        1. it’s not difficult at all. IF you really (REALLY!) want to do it, it’s simple

          i had a guy stick a gun to his temple while i was within 10 ft of him. i tried to convince him not to, but he decided to do it, and did so.

          it is NOT difficult. regardless, most “attempts” are unsuccessful

        2. What I’m saying is that just because I support people’s right to off themselves doesn’t mean I have to be stupid about it.

          Being a libertarian means I don’t have to pretend that making suicide cheap and freely available won’t entice more people to kill themselves.

          1. “Why do you want to deter people from killing themselves?”

            Just for the record, being a libertarian doesn’t render me entirely bereft of human compassion either.

            1. I’m not saying it does. I’m questioning what human compassion has to do with preventing suicide. Obviously a minority opinion, I realize.

              1. many people who want to commit suicide,IF they get help – coping strategies, or medication, or other options in their life, go on to lead happy, successful, productive, meaningful lives.

                again, if somebody wants to do it badly enough, NOBODY can stop them, so it’s really a baseless worry

              2. “I’m questioning what human compassion has to do with preventing suicide.”

                My Latin’s a little rusty, but it used to be pretty good…

                “com” means together. “passion” is to suffer.

                “compassion” is suffering together.

                If when you see people who are in so much pain that they want to kill themselves, and you don’t feel anything like sympathy?

                Then I’m openly questioning your compassion.

                I understand some people might be better off dead–from their own perspective. Hell, we wouldn’t let dogs suffer as badly as some of our elderly do–and putting a dog “to sleep” can be more compassionate than keeping it alive…

                Doesn’t mean we’re not talking about “compassion” regardless. Doesn’t mean we can’t feel compassion for the family and friends of people who kill themselves either.

                Again, just because I support people’s right to kill themselves doesn’t mean I don’t have any compassion. Freedom means the freedom to make mistakes. If people are free to buy “exit bags” on the internet, there will be mistakes. When I advocate freedom, I’m fully aware of that.

                I don’t have to minimize or pretend it’s better than what it is.

                1. If when you see people who are in so much pain that they want to kill themselves, and you don’t feel anything like sympathy?

                  I feel perfect sympathy. Which is why I think it should be easy for them to do.

                  1. and it IS easy

                2. Dunphy and Ken are just arguing from the same old “Everyone but me lacks true agency” perspective.

                  Dunphy is saying, “Because I encounter a lot of people who want to kill themselves who don’t mean it, that means everyone who wants to kill themselves doesn’t mean it. That means we should use the law to stop it.”

                  Ken is saying, “I want it to be really dangerous to kill yourself with certainty, because if it gets any easier a lot of people will kill themselves, and the decision those people are making deserves no respect because I disagree with it”.

                  Your compassion sounds a lot like condescension to me. I assume all adults have the same capacity to make decisions for themselves as I do, and I therefore conclude that if I personally would not want interference in my life decisions that means no one else should face interference with theirs, as long as they don’t violate anyone else’s rights. That’s compassionate to me. Saying, “You know what? I think my own choices are valid, but yours obviously aren’t, so I want to make sure it’s as difficult and scary as possible for you to follow through on yours,” doesn’t seem compassionate to me, since you’re basically admitting up front that you want others to be in a state of fear so they won’t make what you regard as the wrong decision.

                  1. Thanks Fluffy. Times a million. Said much better than I could.

                    1. well, except for the fact that he misrepresented what was said

                      but other than that, much better :l

                  2. Dunphy is saying, “Because I encounter a lot of people who want to kill themselves who don’t mean it, that means everyone who wants to kill themselves doesn’t mean it. That means we should use the law to stop it.”

                    i am saying if you REALLY want to do it, nobody’s going to stop you, so i am not goign to lose any sleep over it.

                    a very substantial %age of people who attempt it, later on regret it, and klead happy lives, and if i can be a part of that, i’m satisfied

                    those that still want to kill themselves after intervention have AMPLE opportunity to do so.

                    nobody, apart from bedridden non-ambulatory people, is being denied the ability to kill themself

                    it’s fucking easy

                  3. “Ken is saying, “I want it to be really dangerous to kill yourself with certainty, because if it gets any easier a lot of people will kill themselves, and the decision those people are making deserves no respect because I disagree with it”.

                    Fluffy is arguing from the perspective of someone who’s only bothered to read a fraction of what I’ve written–and decided to reinterpret what I wrote to mean whatever the voices in Fluffy’s head say it means.

                    Because, for some reason, Fluffy thinks I’m against “exit bags”–despite the fact that I’ve written repeatedly in this very thread that I fully support the right of people to kill themselves.

                    Fluffy is arguing from a perspective that seems to be incapable of comprehending nuance. Because apparently it’s impossible for Fluffy to comprehend that Ken recognizes that making “exit bags” freely available is likely to make more people kill themselves–AND that Ken fully supports people’s free access to them anyway.

                    1. “Because apparently it’s impossible for Fluffy to comprehend that Ken recognizes that making “exit bags” freely available is likely to make more people kill themselves–AND that Ken fully supports people’s free access to them anyway.”

                      Honestly, it’s just like guns.

                      I recognize that people use guns to commit crimes, and I support the right of strangers to own them anyway!

                      I don’t have what it takes to assume that because I support gun rights, that would mean I have pretend that no one will ever misuse them to commit a violent crime!

                      …but then my understanding of the world isn’t limited to infantile comprehension–I am fully capable of comprehending nuance.

                    2. I don’t see how making exit bags freely available would make any difference.

                      Do you have a plastic bag in your house? Do you have a rubber band? Congratulations, you have an exit bag.

            2. Just for the record, being a libertarian doesn’t render me entirely bereft of human compassion either.

              Then you, sir, are No True Libertarian!

        3. I would go so far as to offering free end of life counseling to anyone who is currently on the dole.

      3. Some people will off themselves over some temporary loss–’cause their girlfriend dumped them or something…

        …and many of them wouldn’t have done it otherwise–if there hadn’t been a cheap, relatively painless way to do it freely available.

        This is going to sound so callous but…I have a hard time feeling bad for people who are so emotionally fragile that death is the best alternative to not dating/being married to someone else. Talk about a grotesque form of need. If unstable people like this choose to snuff it, it won’t bother me one bit if they can pick up a kit online for $29.95.

        1. I worked in a lock down mental health facility for a couple of years in lA…

          I’m sure these cases are easier to imagine in the abstract… I’ve actually had a few friends who lost their wives and kids and felt like killing themselves for a little while…

          They got over it, but lots of people get weak for a few weeks here or there in life. It’s not exactly unusual.

          1. Lots of people also like being slaves to the gov’t. It’s not unusual…but it’s still disgusting and pathetic.

            I had a suicidal moment once, when the first chick I ever really loved left me for another dude in college. I wallowed in self-pity for a long, long time, then one day decided I didn’t want to lead that kind of depressing, negative life. I look back on that time with complete disgust at how much pity / sympathy I wanted for myself, and apply the same standards to others.

            If I’d killed myself back then, then I would have gotten exactly what I deserved.

            1. “If I’d killed myself back then, then I would have gotten exactly what I deserved.”

              That happens to everybody in college if they’re lucky! I feel sorry for the guys who never went through that in college, and only had to deal with it the first time when they lost their wife and kids in their 40s…

              Feeling like shit for getting dumped in college for some other dude is a natural stage in life. If you had killed yourself in college over that, you wouldn’t have deserved it.

              Your friends and family wouldn’t have deserved that either.

              1. I agree with you about the friends and family aspect; which was one of the reasons (IIRC) that I didn’t try it. But I do maintain that I would have deserved it, for being such a selfish sniveling little piece of shit.

                1. We’re gonna have to agree to disagree.

                  I’ll just say that even if you were a selfish sniveling little piece of shit back then, you’re not a piece of shit now.

                  …and who you are now never deserved what you might have done to yourself back then.

                  1. Difference being, I don’t want to use gov’t to force my view of the disagreement onto others (not saying you do, but it’s the argument of the anti-suicide crowd).

                    1. i’m not anti-suicide. people should have the right to do so. however, that has to be balanced with the understanding that MANY attempts are done under the stress of psychological illness, depression, intoxicants, etc.

                      just as a person signing a contract in such cases would be non-binding, there is a difference between believing in allowing suicide under the law (as oregon does btw) and understanding that medical/care providers have a duty to intervene in such cases, as in the guy standing on the bridge threatening to jump

                    2. and of course the difference between the suicide and the contract signing is that only one is non-revokable!

        2. That’s not callous, that’s Darwinism. Life is tough; deal with it. If you can’t and you wanna end it, I will mock you, not eulogize. Unless of course you are suffering from a terminal illness, in such a case, my sympathy and best wishes for whatever follows this existence our yours.

          1. Not that I have any problem with mockery in just about any situation, but in all seriousness I think the position that individuals have the right to end their lives without interference actually shows greater respect for human life and individual autonomy. If someone decides they’d rather be dead, I (and certainly not the state) have no business trying to convince them otherwise.

            1. In Minnesota, you can go to jail for three years for suggesting to someone that they kill themself.

              Judge to former nurse: ‘You were … soliciting people to die’

              FARIBAULT, MINN. – The suicide victim’s loved ones spared few words Wednesday in denouncing a 48-year-old former nurse who sat at a courtroom table, dabbing his eyes and awaiting sentencing for encouraging two people to kill themselves.

              William Melchert-Dinkel was called a predator, a monster and a murderer by the relatives of Nadia Kajouji, 18, who jumped into a river in Ottawa, Canada, in 2008. Her body was found six weeks later.

              “For months afterward, nightmares haunted me,” said her mother, Deborah Chevalier. “I would give everything I have to be able to spend just one more minute with my child again.”

              Rice County District Judge Thomas Neuville sentenced Melchert-Dinkel to 360 days in jail under a work-release program, fined him $18,000 and ordered him to pay about $30,000 in restitution. Neuville ordered that the jail time include two-day stints each March and July over the next 10 years, to mark the months in which his victims died.

              Neuville told him: “The court finds that you were stalking and soliciting people to die. … You knew it was wrong.”

              http://www.startribune.com/local/121263264.html

              1. note: he was a medical professional and thus had a legal obligation under standards of care, etc. that a civilian non medical professional wouldn’t. not saying the law only applies to med professionals, but it is a relevant factor

          2. Darwinism is callous. It’s bereft of humanity to look at an attempted suicide and say “whatever, survival of the fittest!”.

            1. I don’t mean to say that you have any duty to stop a suicide attempt, just don’t be so damn gleeful about it.

            2. Darwinism is callous in the sense that mother nature doesn’t give a crap what the outcome is. Anyway, Darwinism only applies if you bump yourself off before you breed. After that, not caring is just callous.

          3. That’s not callous, that’s Darwinism

            The fact that I would not mock you, I know I’d cry, and read all the stupid things you’ve said to me, makes me what then?

            1. An unflushed toilet bowl of bloody diarrhea ?

      4. I went to school with a guy that tried to off himself with a shotgun. Unfortunately for him,he was only successful at blowing off his face.

        True story.

    3. This reminds me of when I dropped out of college.

      I did much the same thing at Virginia Tech… except my explanation amounted to laughing and walking out. My dean at the next college I went to told me my records showed they had an honor court trial after I left, then put me on academic suspension. Then he laughed, “Evidently they convicted you of being a free man.”

      1. Ha, ha! Bureaucracy at work! Hey, this guy no longer attends this school, but he didn’t fill out the proper forms. I guess all we can do is put him on suspension. If he doesn’t rectify the situation within the permitted time period we’ll have no choice but to expel him.

  8. Contrary to the common-sense understanding of fraud, the government thinks Hydorn is guilty of it precisely because her product works as intended.

    So…how does that work? Serious question.

    1. Bag over head. One end of tube in bag, other connects to a helium tank. Fall asleep and die from oxygen deprivation. Seems a little expensive for a bag and some tubing.

      1. Put it on the visa; it’s not like you’re gonna have to foot the bill anyways.

        1. lol

    2. Sorry, I meant, how is this mail fraud, even in the most insane of interpretations? I get the bag-head-helium part.

      1. It’s probably “mail fraud” only in the sense that “mail fraud” is likely being used as a blanket law for “sending stuff the government doesn’t like through the mails”.

        1. IANAL and this is a wild assed guess but my bet is that she provided a product which is unsafe.

  9. I suppose if you’re gonna kill yourself then $60 isn’t that much, but still, there are tons of ways that are free.

  10. I certainly hope that product comes with a warning label. If not, the government should definately do something about that.

    1. The warning label might constitute instructions for killing ones self, and so would invite prosecution too. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don’t.

    2. Improper use of this product can lead to failure of death, and continued life. Possibly in a vegetative state from oxygen loss.

  11. Mildly OT, but it’s an issue that bugs me. Quick, without checking reference material, which gender has higher suicide rates?

    1. this is a subject i have done a lot of research on( grad school) as well as tons of real world experience

      men, BY FAR, commit suicide far more often than women

      women ATTEMPT it far more often than men

      some of these attempts are weak as fuck, iow teenage girls so despondent over their boyfriend dumping them, that they take a few pills, and wine cooler in an attempt to “kill themselves” or do some really half-ass wrist cutting, granted.

      the stats match my experience.

      the VAST majority of “attempt suicide calls” i respond to are women

      the VAST majority of suicides i respond to are men

      men are far more likely to
      1) jump from a really high thing
      2) shoot themselves (women generally don’t like to leave a mess, are less likely to “like” guns in general, and when they do shoot themselves, are more likely to do a torso shot – they don’t wanna mess up their face. men put it down their throat or on their temple)
      3) hang themselves

      women tend to use pills and half-ass cutting

      1. RE: wrist cutting: Remember kiddies, down the road, not across the street.

        1. also, from my experience with suicide “attempts”. a butter knife is not particularly effective.

          1. That’s just a teenage girl trying to guilt-trip the boy that dumped her. My response to those things has always been “I’d feel more guilty if you succeeded.” Sadly, such has never provided them sufficient motivation to try harder.

            1. i am pretty sure if i told a victim what you suggest above, i’d be looking at a suspension ! 🙂

              regardless, it’s certainly clear that many “attempts” are not in fact bona fide attempts but are cries for attention and help. i make that clear in my posts.

              if you stick a gun down your throat, and pull the trigger, that is undeniably an attempt

              if you take 10 anti-depressants and wash it down with a bottle of wine, … meh

              1. i am pretty sure if i told a victim what you suggest above, i’d be looking at a suspension ! 🙂

                With Pay! 🙂

      2. Yup, it’s men. And what bugs me about this particular issue is that nobody cares. In some age groups the stats are ridiculously lopsided. If women were whacking themselves out at a rate of 3 times as much as men, there’d be no end to the drama and programs to help. Men do it and nobody gives a shit.

        1. We don’t need to rub it into women that we’re more successful at yet another thing than they are…

        2. I’m not clear on why we should care about helping.

          1. I’m not clear on why we should care about helping

            It’s this ridiculous thing some humans have called ‘compassion’

        3. because the feminist metanarrative applies

          women are victims

          men are oppressors

          far more men die from suicide, than women die from domestic violence, for instance (iirc). which issue gets more legislation, and most importantly MONEY to “solve ” the problem?

          the reality is many instances of domestic violence are women who REFUSE to leave the man who repeatedly abuses them.

          you could make the same argument that at some point, the burden is on you to break up with the fuckstick, as much as it is his responsibility to stop punching you

          that aint politically correct, but c’mon

          1. i once wrote a paper in grad school that emphasized how many ways men are “victims” vs. women that are underemphasized to support the women as victims narrative

            men: more likely to die on the job, more likely to be victims of homicide, and suicide, more likely to die at a younger age, more likely to be imprisoned, more likely to be in a mental hospital, etc.

            my feminist professor was NOT amused. but it was satisfying

            1. You keep mentioning grad school. I’m still incredulous that you’re a well-educated cop and that you exist. Serious query, out of ignorance. Police get advanced degrees? And some are reasonable people? And some of these smart cops still defend the neanderthals thuggery?

              Does your union know you post here?

              1. I’m still incredulous … that isn’t the word I’d use

              2. a fair # get advanced degrees. usually to help with promotions or some such. some out of genuine interest. we have had lawyers decide to become cops, and people with MA’s or MS’s as well

                The FBI did a study in the law enforcement journal a while ago. Cops average IQ was about 110. certainly, not genius, but a pretty significant deviation from average

                1. actually, i think it was 107, but i don’t have it in front of me

                  1. duh…

                    1. Oh, give it a rest. If all cops were like dunphy, we’d be doing pretty well.

              3. Cops & firefighters often get some tuition reimbursement and pay can be linked to degrees which = big $ incentive to get more education.

                The disincentive is that they can often make bank on overtime, so why bother sitting through Post-colonial Deconstruction of Marxist Literature?

              4. oh also. please show me an example of my (if that is what you are claiming) defending any neanderthal thuggery.

                tia

                contrary to what some here claim, i have called for discipline when thuggery is present e.g. paul schene. in fact, i called for prosecution

                but i am (unlike most posters here) not ignorant of use of force guidelines, and legal precedent, and the reality of the dangers of the street, so i don’t automatically see any force as “bad”

                i also , despite my complete opposition to the war on drugs, blame COPS for enforcing it. i blame LEGISLATORS for creating it, and saddling us with it.

                they could rid us of it tomorrow. it’s less than 2% (at most) of what i spend my time on at my job

                1. I was just parroting the general consensus of the comment section in a generic police man tasers/beats random kid video. I don’t have a well-formed opinion of police, but have recently come into contact with a few outside for the first time outside of a traffic stop. At the gun range cops are decent, friendly people.

                  1. i had numerous encounters with cops when i was a younger , long haired college sort, etc.

                    in EVERY occasion i dealt with police where i was at least police (not subservient or bowing and scraping, but merely civil) i was treated with respect and dignity

                    on one occasion, i made some sly “clever” comment and the cop made a sly clever comment that i should probably shut the fuck up

                    omg! the evil statist asshole!

                    1. ugh. at least “polite” not police


            2. men: more likely to die on the job, more likely to be victims of homicide, and suicide, more likely to die at a younger age, more likely to be imprisoned, more likely to be in a mental hospital, etc.

              So, suffering the consequences of your own behavior makes you a victim?

              1. that depends. again, i was using the feminist victimology narrative.

                also, workplace deaths, crime victimization.

                also, feminists talk of institutional gender bias, that’s why men being incarcerated more, and being sent to mental hospitals more applies.

                if blacks being incarcerated more is PROOF of racism (to many leftists), then men being incarcerated more is PROOF of sexism

                QED.

      3. Silly women can’t do anything right, can they? Like the other day when the woman at McDonalds sprayed oven cleaner into my quarter pounder. How can you not tell the difference between an oven and a burger?

    2. Men have 10x the amount of successful suicides as opposed to women. Women have 10x the attempted suicides as opposed to men.

      Actually I made up those numbers but the reality is somewhere around there.

    3. Number vary widely from one year to the next, but in general…

      Women are twice as likely than men to attempt to kill themselves.
      Men are four times as likely than women to actually kill themselves.
      So men are eight times as likely than women to kill themselves per attempt.

      1. that’s close to the stats i remember. a large part depends on how police agencies classify “attempts” vs. just “mental assist ” calls

        our protocol is the person has to make some sort of overt act that at least they believe could reasonably result in death.

        scratches on the wrist with a knife? arguable, but usually documented as “mental complaint”

        swallow a bottle of pills? suicide attemps

  12. It will be allowed as a cost saving measure with Obamacare.

  13. She got in trouble because she din’t have a choking hazard warning on the plastic bag. Children could get a hold of that! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

  14. The free market should decide this issue. I mean, how much repeat business, brand loyalty, or positive word of mouth could a suicide kit vendor possibly generate?

    1. Yeah, all those five star ratings on their site are mighty suspicious.

  15. $60 for 24 inches of plastic tubing and a baggie. How can you live with yourself after getting ripped off that bad?

    1. hah, nice.

  16. Once again, the free market provides a better solution than the government.

    1. Overpopulation? We don’t need barbaric measure like one-child policies. Instead of worrying about birth rates, simply allow suicidal people a safe and relatively cheap way to go out.

    2.Failed attempted suicides can cost the taxpayer money for healthcare costs. Instead, let’s do it right the first time.

  17. forbidden thoughts of death
    album: render them contraband

    or

    artist: render them contraband
    album: forbidden thoughts of death

  18. If you own yourself, then the right to suicide seems pretty fundamental.

    That said, suicide is fucking lame. There is no shittier thing you can do to your family and friends than kill yourself (except maybe killing them). If you can’t deal with life, just become a junky or something.

    1. i agree. and practically speaking, if you want to off yourself, yer free to do so

      for the non-ambulatory chronically ill types – this is why we need legalized assisted suicide laws!

    2. Except for the concept of the right to life being inalienable.

      in?al?ien?a?ble? ?/?n?e?ly?n?b?l, -?e?li?-/ Show Spelled
      [in-eyl-yuh-nuh-buhl, -ey-lee-uh-] Show IPA

      ?adjective
      not alienable; not transferable to another or capable of being repudiated

      It is a founding principle that a person cannot give up his right to life.

  19. Put your head in the bag, dunphy.

  20. I could do it with just the plastic bag, and not the tubing and helium. What’s the point, to sound funny just before you die?

    And mail fraud is just as retarded of a crime to charge someone with as money laundering.

    1. The helium displaces oxygen and you asphyxiate. But, you keep breathing, avoiding the sensation of choking. You just black out, no struggle or fuss.

      1. Where’s the fun in that?

  21. What’s the legal theory here? That they’re unlicensed medical devices? Or pesticidal devices, taking oneself to be a pest?

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