The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Dobbs, Abortion, and Stare Decisis
Both majority and dissenting opinions include extensive discussions of stare decisis. But the truth is whether you think Roe v. Wade should have been preserved on that basis is heavily correlated with whether you think it was wrong in the first place.

Friday's ruling in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization includes a wide-ranging debate over whether the majority's decision to reverse Roe v. Wade and other precedents supporting abortion rights violated the principle of stare decisis. Both sides make their case well. But at the end of the day, I am left with the impression that much of the debate ultimately comes down to how bad (if at all) you think Roe was in the first place.
I have previously suggested that "Stare decisis will not stop the justices from overturning a precedent they think is badly wrong and causes significant harm" - a point I believe applies to both liberal and conservative jurists. Nothing in yesterday's opinions leads me to change that view. This point can be recast in terms of the Supreme Court's doctrinal standards for reversing previous decisions: its "precedent on precedent." The doctrine requires the Court to consider such factors as the quality of the earlier precedent's reasoning, the extent to which changing circumstances have undermined its utility, the "workability" of the precedent, and whether it has generated significant reliance interests. But much of this just a fancier and more sophisticated way of saying that courts must consider 1) how bad was the precedent, and 2) how much harm it causes, which perhaps should be weighed against the potential harm of upsetting settled expectations.
If you think, as the conservative majority obviously does, that Roe v. Wade wasn't just a mistake in legal reasoning, but "egregiously wrong and deeply damaging," you are going to want to overrule it. As most conservative jurists see it, Roe combines terrible reasoning with horrific real-world consequences comparable to sanctioning the murder of innocent people. If that's what you think, it's easy enough to justify reversing Roe under the Court's standards for overturning precedent, or under almost any theory of stare decisis, short of near-absolute deference to prior decisions, which would also require preservation of such monstrosities as Plessy v. Ferguson and Korematsu. In his majority opinion, Justice Alito compares Roe to Plessy and other notorious "anti-canon" cases.
The conservatives' reasons for overruling Roe are actually similar to liberals' own justifications for junking precedents they believe to be especially awful, like the reversal of Bowers v. Hardwick, the 1986 case upholding the constitutionality of anti-sodomy laws in Lawrence v. Texas (2003), the reversal of numerous pre-New Deal cases protecting economic liberties and property rights, and the reversal of Baker v. Nelson (1972), in Obergefell v. Hodges (2015) (thereby striking down laws banning same-sex marriage). Each of these situations ultimately came down to a liberal or liberal-leaning Supreme Court majority concluding that the precedents in question should be gotten rid of because they were badly wrong and caused profound harm. I think the liberals were right about Bowers and Baker. But that doesn't change the reality of how the reversal of those precedents came about.
The joint Dobbs dissent by the three liberal justices at times seems to suggest precedent must never be reversed unless there is some change in intervening circumstances. In response, Alito rightly points out that this theory implies Plessy could not have been justifiably reversed until some kind of social change occurred relative to the situation in 1896. One can say the same thing about Lawrence's reversal of Bowers. It's hard to think of a reason why Bowers was more wrong or more harmful in 2003 than it was in 1986. If anything, the reverse may have been true, as anti-sodomy laws caused more harm in an era when the authorities were more likely to try to actually enforce them.
Ultimately, the liberal justices concede that "we are not saying that a decision can never be overruled just because it is terribly wrong." If so, then much depends on just how wrong the decision in question actually is.
I do think the majority mishandles one aspect of the Court's standard for overruling: the problem of reliance interests. Justice Alito dismisses the idea that Roe has engendered significant reliance interests because "[t]raditional reliance interests arise 'where advance planning of great precision is most obviously a necessity.' Casey, 505 U. S., at 856…. In Casey, the controlling opinion conceded that those traditional reliance interests were not implicated because getting an abortion is generally "unplanned activity," and "reproductive planning could take virtually immediate account of any sudden restoration of state authority to ban abortions." 505 U. S., at 856. For these reasons, we agree with the Casey plurality that conventional, concrete reliance interests are not present here."
I agree that contraception and "reproductive planning" are often effective substitutes for abortion. But these tools don't work in cases where the pregnancy is the result of rape, or where the need for abortion arises from a medical problem that only became evident after the pregnancy began. Alito says that only "concrete" reliance interests deserve consideration, not "intangible form[s] of reliance" that are difficult to for courts to assess. But the examples above strike me as both concrete and tangible. Indeed, it's hard to think of many interests that are more concrete than those of a woman facing an unwanted pregnancy caused by rape, or one that poses a serious danger to her health. The dissent offers some additional examples of reliance interests overlooked by Alito, though I don't fully agree with its analysis of these points.
Even very extensive reliance interests aren't always enough to preclude reversal of a precedent. Few prominent Supreme Court cases engendered as much reliance as Plessy v. Ferguson and other decisions upholding racial segregation. Segregationists weren't entirely wrong when they asserted that the entire southern "way of life" was bound up with Jim Crow. Yet, today, almost everyone agrees the Court was right to gut Plessy, regardless. Pro-segregation decisions were so profoundly wrong and harmful that the case for getting rid of them outweighed even very large reliance interests. If you think abortion is the moral equivalent of murder, you could reasonably say the same of Roe.
I myself do not believe Roe was anywhere near as awful Plessy. But that's in large part because I'm pro-choice with respect to the vast majority of abortions, and certainly do not believe they are the moral equivalent of murder, or anything like it. I also think that, while there are indeed significant analytical errors in Roe, they are no more egregious than those in lots of other Supreme Court rulings. But I have to admit I would be far more supportive of overruling Roe if I thought abortion was a great evil, and Roe's reasoning placed it among the worst-reasoned cases of all time.
Regardless, the reliance interests underpinning Roe are more substantial than the Dobbs majority recognizes. That at least should raise the threshold of awfulness great enough to justify reversal.
Some have argued that Dobbs' reversal of Roe is especially bad because it reverses a decision expanding constitutional rights, rather than contracting them. But, as I explained at length in a previous post, the Court has an extensive history of reversing rights-protecting precedents, including many whose demise was cheered by the political left.
I think most of these reversals were actually misguided, and that it might be wise to establish an especially strong presumption against reversing precedents that protect individual rights. I would have been happy if the Supreme Court had adopted such a rule, and declined to reverse Roe on that basis. But that's not an approach you can embrace if - like many progressives - you applaud the Supreme Court's 20th century gutting of precedents protecting contract and property rights, and would be happy to see it overrule Citizens United v. FEC (2010) or various cases protecting gun rights.
In sum, despite the impressive intellectual effort both sides devote to the stare decisis question, I think the debate over the overruling of Roe mostly comes down to how bad it was in the first place. That's not to say that stare decisis never matters. Far from it. It matters a great deal in the many situations where judges think a precedent was only modestly erroneous, the mistaken precedent doesn't cause much harm, or - even better - some combination of both. Nearly all judges - yes, even Clarence Thomas - tolerate numerous precedents they think are wrong, but ultimately not all that bad.
But such tolerance wilts when it comes to decisions jurists think are horrendously awful in both their reasoning and their effects. Liberals and conservatives, originalists and living constitutionalists, all behave that way - for good reason, in my view. All are willing to reverse precedents that are "egregiously wrong and deeply damaging," as Alito puts it. The big disagreement is over which cases fall into that category.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Why is it that out of all rights, the left chooses to die on the hills of killing babies and sodomizing other men?
Please donate to my charity that knits sweaters for the million poor little embryos in cryogenic storage…so sadz. 🙁
Next up on the road back to compliance with the constitution? Reverse Marbury v Madison, a violation of Artcle I Section 1.
Marbury was the mother of bad decisions, the mother of defiance of the constitution, themother of national catastrophe, including the Civil War.
SC,
Get a grip. Your comment is neither cute nor funny nor helpful.
Instead of childish pleas, why not advocate a bill that the D's can pass and the President sign before the next election legalizing abortion in all 50 states. Yes that takes dumping the filibuster in the Senate.
They haven't got the votes to dump the filibuster. They've tried several times already. There are enough Democrats in the Senate opposed to dumping the filibuster that it won't happen.
Not to mention that the Supreme Court would certainly strike such a law down on basically the same reasoning as Dobbs; Nothing in the Constitution makes abortion a federal matter.
So how did Obergefell get through?
60 dems in senate at that time
I doubt they would strike down the law. You're whistling in the dark Brett
I agree with Brett.
I think they would strike it down.
My reasons for thinking that are vastly different than his, of course, but I do think so.
Brett is making a federalism argument and since the Court is not going to invalidate the federal partial-birth abortion ban on federalism grounds, it won't do so for a law that insures abortion rights either. The only other possible grounds is the fetus gets 14th Amendment personhood rights, and that is a non-starter.
What congressional Democrats ought to do is bring to a cloture vote a bill that legalizes first-trimester abortion throughout the USA and get the Republicans on the record opposing it. They can then run on that issue in the fall.
I think the Senate could attract 60 votes in that case. A combination from both parties.
Don, you usually present on the conservative spectrum, but under what constitutional theory can congress legalize abortion nationwide?
Thomas has already said he didn’t think a congressional late term abortion ban would be a legitimate congressional power, and I agree. So how can going the other way and having Congress pass a law to legalize abortion pass muster?
I think in the end most states will have legalized abortion, at least during the first trimester, and that will encompass at least 75% of the population.
Under Raich, the Commerce Clause because abortion is an economic activity. On the other hand, Murphy v. National Collegiate Athletic Associationis a barrier because Congress cannot order the states not to pass laws. However, perhaps Congress can word the law to proscribe anyone (private or public party) from interfering with abortions access.
You're right as to the current state of the law.
But I'm not so naive as to think that's how the current Court would find.
The Court is not going to put at risk the federal partial-birth abortion ban.
When the Congressional Partial Birth Abortion ban was upheld by the Supreme Court, Thomas’ concurrence, joined by Scalia, said:
“I also note that whether the Act constitutes a permissible exercise of Congress’ power under the Commerce Clause is not before the Court. The parties did not raise or brief that issue; it is outside the question presented; and the lower courts did not address it.”
Looks like he’s inviting another challenge. I’d say the overwhelming odds are that he’d strike on commerce clause grounds, if it’s raised. But a lot of people who would challenge such an abortion ban would rather lose teeth than win by narrowing the Commerce Clause.
But of course the liberal justices and Roberts could just join the result, but not the reasoning if he didn’t get enough votes from the rest of the conservatives. But I doubt Thomas would join their result without his reasoning.
I think you're wrong here Brett.
Dobbs basically said that there's nothing in the Constitution that gives women the "right" to an abortion. That doesn't say anything about Congress's ability to regulate abortion, either to mandate it's acceptance or banning it.
For that, you need to look at Gonzales v. Carhart. And there, it was found that Congress can mandate abortion procedures.
I think Congress can mandate abortion...or ban it...nationwide, via their commerce clause power.
Say what you may about Alito but he chooses his words carefully:
"The Constitution does not prohibit the citizens of each State from regulating or prohibiting abortion. Roe and Casey arrogated that authority. We now overrule those decisions and return that authority to the people and their elected representatives."
Note that he castigated the Court for arrogating the authority to "prohibit the citizens of each State from regulating or prohibiting abortion" but he omitted to say which people and which representatives he returns the authority to — could be the ones in each state or Congress.
Thus, he left an opening for a frontal assault by a federal ban on abortion — and some on the Right are already salivating. But the same opening is there for a Democratic Congress to pass federal abortion rights legislation.
I sincerely hope that the GOP takes the bait, and fire the first shot. If Democrats won't be able to rouse their base for abortion rights in the fall, what will they ever be able to move politically?
Isn't it worth a try? They would have a better chance for a direct law than for packing the court
When did they try? Be specific and tell me what the vote was.
Why? I don’t care about this issue other than with respect to eugenics which I support.
Why do you choose to forbid men sodomizing other men?
With abortion, you can claim the baby is a second life.
But this? None of your damned business, busibodies.
Butt banging killed 20 million.
Societies forbid all sorts of activities that cause self a communal harm.
More federal dollars are spent on on AIDS each year than NASA and Cancer.
Think about how utterly absurd that is. Gays make up 70% of AIDS and they do so because they are too selfish to wear a condom.
Because these selfish homosexuals can’t control themselves so society spends billions of dollars and researched ways to keep them from getting AIDS but still having bareback sodomy. And regular families have to bear the brunt these $1000/mo gay party drugs because Democrats force insurers to cover it for everyone.
It’s disgusting. So disgusting. Sodomy should be forbidden. The homosexual lifestyle should be stigmatized not celebrated and not used as a weapon to destroy heterosexual norms and children.
I don't. But I also don't think that a sodomy based relationship is a "marriage" and neither did the founders.
Because they enjoy killing babies and sodomizing other men.
Your claim that people "enjoy killing babies" is based on a strictly religious belief. On scientific grounds I would hold that there is a bright line difference between a foetus without a central nervous processing "hardware" and a baby. Such an entity is unable to register and process pain, for example. Yet, among religions there is a deep divide about the beginning of human life: in the Jewish tradition human life begins at birth and even only thirteen days thereafter. Islamic scholars have their differences. So, why should the Christian point of view prevail?
From an ethical point of view, it is far more reprehensible to kill a fully sentient and cognisant animal for our convenience. I confess to this behaviour but from there to impose a legal ban on meat consumption and send me to prison for killing a sentient being is a stretch — far shorter a stretch than to ban aborting a foetus that is far lower on ontogenetic development than a baby lamb is.
The central nervous system is not suddenly issued upon checking out of the uterus.
Hanging personhood on the existence of a central nervous system is odd. But as expected when you try and ground a philosophical question in a phenomenological argument in an attempt to make it 'easy.'
“One of these things is not like the other”.
Argue mother’s rights vs babies’ rights all you want, but are you actually suggesting that the founders wanted the government to regulate who has sex with who? Seriously?
Can the government pass laws that restrict you from behaviors that cause you and others harm?
Gay sex causes you harm? Do tell.
2008: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/feb/03/healthandwellbeing.features MRSA USA300 spreads among homo's in San Francisco.
2020:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2020.00204/full
MRSA USA300 is the most dominant cause of MRSA infections in hospitals.
For example.
And we can't forget the since pink-washed Gay Bowel Syndrome.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6893530/
If you’re not gay why do you care?
You just want to boss other people around and make them live how you think they should. So basically you’re a progressive.
Did you see the comment about MRSA USA300 killing people in hospitals? Have you heard of drug-resistant gonorrhea?
Is there no negative cost at all on others for the homosexual lifestyle? Their $1000/mo gay party drug costs that for some reason my risk pool would have to cover?
That isn't the dumbest thing in his statement. We all know gay sex doesn't hurt the participants. But his stupidity grows exponentially when he says gay sex causes harm to others.
Cultural conservatives aren't just anti-liberty, they're anti-reality as well. According to them it is a good thing for the government to force people to follow Christian values and forbid them to have their own moral beliefs.
Abortion will become legal throughout America again in the years to come, although it may take another generation. Coercive governmental force, especially in support of a belief that is so far on the lunatic fringe, will alienate reasonable people. Americans don't like to have someone else's moral beliefs forced on them.
Ideally it will split the Republican party, with the "Christian morality by force" wing being marginalized by the reasonable and decent Republicans that constitute the majority of the GOP. Losing that baggage will allow them to appeal to more moderate voters, making a stronger and more reasonable conservative party. But this scenario assumes conservative politicians will act on beliefs rather than power seeking.
Scroll up I provided proof of both self-harm and harm to others.
You'll force healthy people to get vaxxed and wear a mask for the "common good", but won't force gays to abstain or to wear a condom for the "common good".
It's sickening.
No, you posted a correlation. And one that can replace the group you hate with any other group and the disease in the article with any other communicable disease and be equally true.
Just because people pass diseases to each other doesn't mean homosexuality hurts other people as a foundational issue.
You are a bigot, so you think that "things that exist in the world" count as "reasons homosexuals are bad" if you can make a tenuous connection between gay people and everyday bad things. It is sophistry and idiocy. Your hate blinds you to the weaknesses in your arguments and your erroneous belief that most people secretly agree with you makes you think no one will notice.
Fortunately, people who are consumed by anger and hate towards the changes in America are slowly dying off and those who are willing to live and let live are ascending. We are becoming a better, more perfect union as we increasingly distance ourselves from the corrupt, evil, and corrosive belief systems that autboritarians like you embrace.
I know you pine for the days of Jim Crow, gay persecution, lynching, and women staying in the home. But fortunately, the world you prefer is gone forever. And at this point you can't even use governmental force to make everyone live that way.
People like you are harmful to America. But you and your kind are in the sunset of your power in America. We won't miss you when you're gone.
I thought Roe was wrongly decided, but not egregiously so. Reliance interests justified keeping it.
I think it was wrongly decided because women ended up having careers and entering politics in the 1980s…so I think the Court believed they were doing what was necessary to protect a minority group that was prevented from participating in the political process like Blacks in the South.
By killing some 30,000,000 future women not able to have careers or enter politics?? (except maybe for AOC, she looks like an "Incomplete Abortion"(It's a real thang, Google that (redacted))
Can I ask you NOT to protect me?
Frank "2 Daughters, mine as far as I know"
"because women ended up having careers and entering politics in the 1980s…"
More shallow, wannabe thinking.
It happened…gen x men know how to change diapers.
So was there a reliance interest in Dred Scott?
Reliance interest is a bad basis to support or continue with bad law.
Reliance is a great reason to keep a suboptimal administrative interpretation.
Not so much for continued perversion of the separation of powers.
Of course reliance interests are trumped by personhood rights. But, SCOTUS did not, and in my opinion should not, declare the fetus a 14th Amendment person. Hence, reliance interests come to the fore.
Korematsu
dred scott
kelo
plessy
Reliance interests where?
The entire southern economy?
Ah. You're only looking at one side of the ledger. That's not how reliance interest analysis works - governmental and third party interests are also part of that mix.
Because the Supreme Court didn't decide anything about when life begins, you can't analogize slavery to being a fetus.
Obfuscate.
Not equating Dred Scott with Roe but with stare decicis.
No, that's a new goalposts.
This thread is based on the OP, which talks about reliance interests.
Good point.
They question I have is what the response would be to a state law that simple declares when human life becomes a legal person in the state
Federal courts should ignore it since state law doesn't define what a 14th Amendment person is.
The entire southern economy?
What case are you talking about? Dred Scott or Plessy?
Well how about Lochner?
add a few words and you could have a Sonnet,
Korematsu, what's it to you, Homo?
Dred Scott, Stare Decisis? I don't know
Kelo-D, Ruth B-G-She Dead, Bye Bye
Plessy Pick Dat Cotton Eff You White-y
damn, writing Sonnets is hard
Can you elaborate? The reliance interests here seem pretty modest to me (especially in the unique circumstances here, where everyone was effectively on notice that this opinion was coming a while in advance).
The Dobbs leak killed any reliance interests. People and legislatures had lots of time to anticipate the change.
I think this article misstates or mis-emphasizes the analysis on harm. In my reading the argument was more that Roe was unworkable and hadn’t reached a political equilibrium.
Meanwhile things HAVE materially changed since Roe and Lawrence.
Fetal viability has greatly improved since Roe. Courts have completely failed to stick to the viability standard.
AND. I suspect that these days far more heterosexuals are having anal sex than are homosexuals. Or at least admitting to it.
AND. I suspect that these days far more heterosexuals are having anal sex than are homosexuals. Or at least admitting to it.
Speaking from personal experience?
Funny you think 'eeew butt stuff' is a burn on him and not on you.
Asshole's an Exit, not an Entrance (Scientifically true, ever try to push a Turd back in?)
"ever try to push a Turd back in?"
Not personally, but fecal transplants are a recognized treatment for certain intestinal issues.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/c-difficile/care-at-mayo-clinic/mac-20351700?mc_id=google&campaign=12364095989&geo=9018795&kw=fecal%20transplant&ad=499362077245&network=g&sitetarget=&adgroup=123190878852&extension=&target=kwd-18701342647&matchtype=e&device=c&account=1990303372&invsrc=consult&placementsite=minnesota&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIj_XXlcfJ-AIVsD6tBh30EgJnEAAYAiAAEgJxBfD_BwE
This might be a better link: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/gastroenterology_hepatology/clinical_services/advanced_endoscopy/fecal_transplantation.html#:~:text=Fecal%20transplantation%20(or%20bacteriotherapy)%20is,difficile%20colitis.
Don't think it's a "burn" on anyone, but that's a pretty broad claim.
Your question was more insult than inquiry.
Gee thanks for your thought input as to what my post meant.
That's really weird that you are actually curious about his sexual history and preferences.
Anything that’s the subject of a 20 year old SNL skit is officially mainstream.
Google “butt babies”.
likewise maternal death dropped considerably since the 1930's from approximately 600 per 100k to approx 23 per 100k in 2020, which renders any claim "women's health " bogus (or near bogus).
Not sure it's a great idea to make the 'it'll only kill a few people' argument.
Probably less than the 70 million babies that never got a chance to live. Funny how the media never seems to point this out....
A lame deflection to begging the question.
He did not "beg the question." Lame deflection? yes.
Arguing that it's 70 million babies sure is begging the question.
Are you seriously contending that post Roe abortion did not directly contribute to the deaths of 70 million human lives?
Yes, Jimmy. It doesn't speak well of you that you see no possible gray area between the moment of fertilization and a human life at birth.
Plenty of us do not think a fertilized egg is "a human life". I think you are the one with the burden to claim a fertilized egg is "a human life". Unless you are playing with words and, by "human life" you don't mean a person. In that case, you're being intentionally vague which is pretty dishonest.
You do realize devaluing human existence is a standard issue tactic to justify genocide, right? You are doing it here and now which I think is telling.
This is just more question begging.
Historically the correlation between allowing abortion and genocide doesn't really jump out.
Maybe don't call people pro-genocide without a bit to back it up, lest you be thought an asshole.
Saying a form of life is not "human" is the first step to justifying genocide. This is known by all.
That's what my vegan girlfriend says. You guys probably wouldn't agree about everything, but you're on the same page with that one. Except when it comes to plants. She has no problem murdering those forms of life.
No, it is not known by all. Your supposedly universally understood argument isn't even adopted by pro-life advocates.
It is akin to what a certain strain of vegans say, as Roman Moroni noted.
You and the militant vegans.
It is known by all. Just ask anyone who survived the holocaust. They will tell you how the Nazi's devalued them as "sub human" for the years before. Your gaslighting does not work on me.
Jimmy the Dane,
As Sarcastro points out, you are question begging and there is no correlation between societies that permit abortion and genocide. Nazi Germany outlawed abortion, but committed massive genocide, since you bring them up.
Your argument is:
1. Societies that devalue people as subhuman tend to commit genocide.
2. A fertilized egg is a "human life"
3. A "human life" is necessarily a person.
4. Therefore, permitting destruction of a fertilized egg devalues people as subhuman.
5. Therefore, societies that permit abortion (i.e., the destruction of fertilized eggs) are moving towards genocide.
But 2 and 3 are, at bare minimum, disputable, so your conclusions are, at least, disputable.
And the fact that you need to claim some slippery slope shows you lack faith in arguments 2 and 3. If it were so plain that fertilized eggs were persons, then the genocide is already occurring. But it isn't clear, so you're not making that here. You're warning of a future genocide, the consequences to actual people if abortion continues to be permitted.
In other words, you've admitted your own argument is bullshit.
A single cell without a brain or even the semblance of a nervous system, is quite evidently not a person. Nor eight cells with the same deficiencies. For me, the issue isn't even arguable until there is a functioning brain. So there is a bright line between non-persons (i.e. those without brains) and persons (those with brains). Arguing the contrary is merely religious superstition which, you should be aware, has been strongly correlated with genocide throughout world history. I expect you to abandon any religion you have, if you thought you're prior reasoning had any merit. (But, of course, it didn't have any merit.)
A stupid point. If the dissent's statistic is true (and it would seem it is), a woman is 14 times more likely to die from taking a pregnancy to term than from an abortion. That's a significantly increased risk. Moreover, there are plenty of known risks and bodily changes/damage caused or risked by a full-term pregnancy that are not a risk of abortion.
"They probably won't die from pregnancy" is not the stellar argument you seem to think it is.
A couple of months is not plenty of time for something this contentious.
If a couple of months isn't enough time to decide whether to get an abortion, how does anyone ever manage to have one?
I was referring to his inclusion of “legislatures”.
> where the pregnancy is the result of rape, or where the need for abortion arises from a medical problem that only became evident after the pregnancy began
Those questions weren’t before the court in this case. And they seem unrelated to reliance to me. Nothing about this has changed post Roe.
The "medical problem" argument is explicitly covered in Dobbs. Opinion makes clear a medical necessity is constitutionally protected. For some reason pro-abortion people ignore this.
The joint Dobbs dissent by the three liberal justices at times seems to suggest precedent must never be reversed unless there is some change in intervening circumstances.
...
Ultimately, the liberal justices concede that "we are not saying that a decision can never be overruled just because it is terribly wrong."
This contradicts itself. Looks more to me like Prof. Somin had a thesis he liked, and fixed the arguments to make the right strawman for it.
My law school took it as baseline that vertical stare was inviolate, but horizontal was more like persuasive precedent with deference. To be overturned, but requiring a pretty strong justification.
As to the case at bar, I actually think that there has been a pretty decent precedential scaffolding laid in the past decade to overturn Roe.
But Alito characteristically did not really avail himself of it, making the justification more 'we can do this now' than anything else.
Ironically, the weakness of this case may be like that of Roe - unnecessarily choosing a doctrinally muddier foundation than it needed to.
[Proviso: - I read the leaked opinion not this one, but I hear it's basically unchanged]
No it doesn't. Prof. Somin is saying that the logic of the dissent seems lead to the conclusion that precedent should overruled, but because that they ultimately concede that that's not the case.
I'm having some trouble parsing what your wrote. The dissent very much assumes precedent can be overruled, but doesn't think the majority made that burden.
I don't think Prof. Somin at all establishes that the dissent indicates precedent should never be overruled, and in fact includes a quote saying otherwise.
(It doesn't help Alito didn't even try to meet any particular burden of justification other than 'this decision is wrong because it doesn't follow my particular jurisprudence.')
Sarcastr0, I am confused when I read your response. My interpretation of this decision (and Justice Alito's opinion) must be very different than yours. The Court, as I understand the import of the decision, merely pointed to the structural framework - federalism - as the mechanism to decide the question of abortion restrictions. Now the people within the states, acting through their respective state legislatures, will answer that question. Isn't that the precedent?
Personally, I thought Justice Thomas addressed that line of thought with his recent stare decisis remark (to paraphrase...lawyers scream 'stare decisis' when they're out of constitutional arguments to make).
The precedent isn't the final practical upshot, it's the reasoning. Lower courts look at the jurisprudential scaffolding of an opinion when dealing with the myriad of similar but not identical fact patterns that reality provides.
Alito does provide this scaffolding. What he does not do is address the reasoning of the decisions he's overruling. With the votes currently on the court, he doesn't need to. For now.
But by just saying 'that reasoning sucks, here's the new doctrine' he's opening up the decision to some pretty easy attacks.
Attacks that I believe could have been at least somewhat blunted by looking at the post-Roe history of narrowing the initial opinion over and over again. That's a pretty center-mass story of how you overrule a precedent in a common-law system.
But naw, Alito goes for the radical step-function rout. Fun for now; unwise if you actually care about your decision's longevity.
The holding did not rely on federalism. It instead rejected that the Constitution guaranteed the right to an abortion and returned the question to the people and their elected representatives without reference to whether those representatives are at the state or federal level.
Josh R...My reading from the decision that Justice Alito is talking about returning the question of abortion restrictions to the people and state legislatures. But if you think Congress should take a swing at abortion restrictions...well alright then.
Roe might have been wrongly reasoned, but that doesn't mean it was wrongly decided. A right is not any less a right because it's 9A not 14A based.
Need the 14th to bind the States.
I'm an EPC man myself.
Sounds like a personal problem.
Need the 14th to bind the States.
Yup - I should have clarified. I was thinking of the due process clause as used in Roe, not the privileges and immunities clause.
Well I’ll point out one nuance in the decision you might have missed, Dobbs didn’t rule out a right to abortion somewhere in the constitution, they merely said Roe was untenable and had to be overruled.
The case before them, still allows abortion up to 15 weeks. So as of now no law completely outlawing elective abortions in the first trimester has been upheld.
But none have been challenged either. I haven't really looked at all the trigger laws that will be enacted in the various states, but if a law outlawing abortion entirely came before the SC, are you suggesting that they'd find something in the Constitution to overturn it? What would that reasoning look like?
Dobbs didn’t rule out a right to abortion somewhere in the constitution, they merely said Roe was untenable and had to be overruled.
I don't think this is right.
My call is that we have no more "rule of law" in this country. This is probably the fault of both parties, but more so the left. What did they expect to give "rule of law" so much lip service over the years when things like Supreme Court decisions went their way, but the second it does not they want to take their ball and go home.
We will probably continue our descent into becoming a banana republic thanks for mostly the antics of the Left. Hope everyone is happy.
Radicals have been saying there is no rule of law since the Founding. You are neither original nor correct.
Oh yeah "prosecutorial discretion" where we get to have The Rule of Man pretending to be the Rule of Law.
Like how Democrat DHS is just dropping millions of illegals cases willy-nilly and effectively granting amnesty. Democracy, rule of law, be damned.
The Rule of Man IS the Rule of Law. Laws are completely man-made. There is no such thing as divine law in a democracy, especially one like ours that forbids the government from establishing any religion.
At the heart of a belief in the Rule of Law is accepting the fact that you will never believe in or agree with every law, but that there is a process by which legal errors are corrected. We are in a place like that right now, both from the anti-abortion side (who just succeeded in creating a legal error) and the pro-liberty side (whose work has just begun).
Banning or restricting abortion is bad law. Before Dobbs, I would have said banning or restricting abortion before viability is bad law, but it has been made abundantly clear that if the lunatic fringe has the slightest opening and at least 5 justices, they will force everyone else to live by their moral beliefs. So it is bad law, but it is the law for now.
Time for those of us who believe in liberty to once again fight back against the restrictionist, moralistic authoritarians who refuse to let people make their own decisions. Cultural conservatives sure make things difficult for decent Americans.
The heart of a belief in the Rule of Law is that the law gets applied equally and fairly.
When "prosecutorial discretion" is the excuse for apply laws in a gerrymandered away to achieve the policy preferences you can't get via legislation, or to punish political opponents you don't have Rule of Law.
True, but sooner or later Ron DeSantis won't be governor any more.
And yes, the equal applicability of laws is fundemental to the rule of law. But in the world we live in, there aren't enough cops nor hours in the day to prosecute all crimes. Mostly because there are too many laws, and a lot that are stupid or outdated or otherwise irrelevant. Some are more important than others, so you have to prioritize things like robbery over things like swearing in public. There aren't enough resources to do it all, so you have to prioritize.
Abortion bans/restrictions/regulations are some of the most wasteful (and intrusive) laws on the books. Choosing to use resources anywhere else is a wise plan.
In a world of limited resources, something's got to give. I know it angers your authoritarian heart that jack-booted thugs won't be bringing misery and despair to abortion providers. But reasonable people see it for the waste of time and money it is.
The only difference is that I am right. The only thing that matters now is power. And those who are brave enough to exercise sheer, unbridled discretion of it are sure to be our new overlords.
As with all radicals, this is not fact, it is feeling. You're choosing to be certain of this for reasons beyond the facts on the ground.
If all that mattered was power, you wouldn't be posting freely on the Internet.
(Andy Rooney Voice)
"Y'now, if we didn't Kill, I'm Sorry "Abort" 500,000 Babies a year, Pete Booty-Judge and "Chaz" (only "Chaz's" I ever knew were Fraternity A-holes) could have adopted a baby and not have to pay some White Trash Girl to take her babies!"
Seriously (fortunately I have viable swimmers) the pool of "Adoptable" Babies is like the Bar scene in Star Wars, Ironically, the ones who look "Most Amurican" are brain damaged Russian/Ukranian throw aways. The Healthiest are the garden variety Blacks, who most Pete Booty-Judges won't lay a hand on (not so sure about that....) because they don't want to "Culturally Appropriate" (How many Afro-Amurican "Chaz's" do you know?
Frank
I think the reversal makes sense from a federal and legal perspective, but I don't agree with abortion being illegal or being criminally prosecuted for one. I wish the government both federal and local would get out of managing our minds and bodies. Let us do what we want with them despite the outcomes.
Let me know when the draft is gone.
The draft has been gone since Nixon was President. What remains is the Selective Service System which requires and maintains a list of males who have turned 18.
Don't think there would be much political will to actually re-institute a draft.
Great. Codify it's demise. Then we'll talk.
If Roe v Wade was so obviously and egregiously wrong, they knew this during their confirmation hearings. They did not have the fortitude to say so. Instead, they obfuscated, lied and probably perjured themselves to get the job.
They answered the questions truthfully. The senators didn't ask the correct question.
BillyG — The NYT reported yesterday that during a two-hour private meeting in Senator Collins' office, staffers took verbatim notes of Kavanaugh's remarks. Here is the Times' reporting of what Kavanaugh allegedly replied when Collins pressed him on support of Roe:
“Start with my record, my respect for precedent, my belief that it is rooted in the Constitution, and my commitment and its importance to the rule of law,” he said, according to contemporaneous notes kept by multiple staff members in the meeting. “I understand precedent and I understand the importance of overturning it.”
“Roe is 45 years old, it has been reaffirmed many times, lots of people care about it a great deal, and I’ve tried to demonstrate I understand real-world consequences,” he continued, according to the notes, adding: “I am a don’t-rock-the-boat kind of judge. I believe in stability and in the Team of Nine.”
I call that lying. Collins is being criticized for letting herself be gulled. I join that criticism. Like many who saw Kavanaugh's performance during his confirmation hearings, I concluded Kavanaugh lied publicly. I do not understand why Collins, or anyone else, should have expected him to do anything else with his confirmation hanging in the balance. So I say Kavanaugh lied. And I say Collins was suckered.
What's the lie? Where did he say it couldn't be overruled?
You remind me of the line in Three Days of the Condor:'
"You think not being caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth".
Of course, the passage taken as a whole is, if not an outright lie, deliberately highly misleading and hence dishonest. And is equivalent to lying.
You’re trying to reason with delusional, desperate, bigoted, gullible, superstitious losers. You might as well yell at a lamp.
Except that some lamps respond to voice prompts, so . . .
They all obfuscate. It is what they are trained to do before appearing.
Well you could say the same thing about Sotomayor when she was asked about Heller.
You mean like PBJ or whatever her initials are who can't say what a woman is?
The fuck is wrong with you?
Don't expect a complete answer - there's a character limit on comments.
Why do you always defend Angry Covid Rabbit?
While I think Dobbs is a terrible decision, their real mistake was in saying the quiet part so loudly that even the vast majority of Americans who don’t care about SCOTUS (and who are blessedly ignorant of the size of Josh Blackman’s ego) could hear it: in the words of a former Justice, “We’re not last because we’re right; we’re right because we’re last.”
These two decisions likely won’t last as long as Vanilla Ice did.
Just not enough ignorant, bigoted hayseeds left in America to defend them much longer.
Depends on whose constitutional rights you are referring to. Pro-lifers will argue there's another interested party here that you're ignoring.
"Depends on whose constitutional rights you are referring to. Pro-lifers will argue there's another interested party here that you're ignoring."
Prove it. Then we can consider it relevant. Right now all anti-abortionists have is a bunch of partisan beliefs that most people find unconvincing and are unsupported by evudence. They have exactly zero objective proof that a fertilized egg is a person with rights. They have an immense amount of arrogance and delusions of moral superiority, but nothing else.
When 85% of Americans find your beliefs unconvincing after 50 years of well-funded propaganda campaigns, terrorist activity, and baseless arguments, you need to consider the possibility that you are very, very wrong. And very, very totalitarian.
From Kavanaugh's concurrence:
'First is the question of how this decision will affect other
precedents involving issues such as contraception and marriage—in particular, the decisions in Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U. S. 479 (1965); Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U. S. 438
(1972); Loving v. Virginia, 388 U. S. 1 (1967); and Obergefell v. Hodges, 576 U. S. 644 (2015). I emphasize what the
Court today states: Overruling Roe does not mean the overruling of those precedents, and does not threaten or cast
doubt on those precedents. '
First off, Kavanaugh...you're a liar. Everyone knows this. Also I don't understand why you wrote this concurrence to begin with just to soften the blow. You guys need not explain yourselves anymore. You have the power to do whatever you want and no one can stop you. So just do it and stop wasting our time.
At least he mentioned Loving v Virginia unlike Clarence Tom.
If you don't understand, then maybe you should be silent about it?
You're not a lawyer, are you?
Kavanaugh's concurrence may be what lower courts look to more than Alito's opinion.
https://twitter.com/tommy_bennett/status/1539994235499429890
"Justice Kavanaugh's concurrence in Bruen is a perfect example of what I call a "pivotal concurrence." What's that, you ask? ????
In our article, we identify a special kind of concurrence that has outsized importance, even though the formal voting rules say it has no force of law. We call this a pivotal concurrence, and they're surprisingly common (several per term).
Pivotal concurrences have 3 features. 1. There must be a majority (not a plurality) opinion. 2. One or more justices who are numerically necessary to the majority must write a concurrence. 3. That concurrence must state a different legal rule from the majority opinion.
So, in Bruen, Kavanaugh and the Chief joined the majority opinion—making it the law—but also wrote separately "to underscore two important points about the limits of the Court's decision." This kind of language is emblematic of a pivotal concurrence.
Pivotal concurrences set up a clash: formal rules of voting in collegial courts vs. a predictive mode of legal reasoning. In the next 2A case, does anyone doubt that the briefs will be targeted squarely at Kavanaugh and Roberts? But why, if they are but two votes in the majority?
The reason, we found, is that lower courts are much more likely to pay attention to pivotal concurrences than they are to non-pivotal concurrences. That tendency is at its apex in salient, constitutional cases—ones just like Bruen.
Do you think women owning property in their own name is clearly established?
It was not at the time of the signing of the 14th, should a trust survive?
I'm in the camp of people who would have retained Roe, but I don't understand Illya's point about reliance. How has a raped woman organized intimate relationships or made significant life choices in reliance on the availability of abortion in the event that contraception should fail? I think raped women who become pregnant absolutely should have the right to an abortion, but I would like someone to explain to me how such women would have done anything different had they known Roe would be overruled, thereby relying on Roe's existence.
The final Dobbs opiniom was identical in substance to the draft, correcting only vatilus typographical and citation errors, except for three multi-paragraph sections responding to the sissent and concurrence.
In the second of these sections, responding to the dissent on stare decisis, the final opinion seemed to provide considerably more leeway than the draft did on when the court could overrule a prior opinion. It brought cases, for example the salute-the-flag cases where it overruled its precedent only 3 years later, and Brown v. Board of Education, where it said that surely the court wouldn’t have been required to wait half a century before overruling Pleasy v. Ferguson.
I hadn’t noticed this section on my initial read. But as I read it, it seems to make it easier for the court to overrule other substantive Due Process precedents than the draft did.
Perhaps Justice Thomas, who joined the majority in full in addition to writing a concurrence, had some influence on this It section.
I hope that the fools who voted for Jill Stein in 2016 are happy with what they have wrought.
Hobby Lobby reminds me of the early Republican attempts to overturn Roe…Republicans play the long game.
Given their record all FDA approved medications might be suspect.
Thalidomide????
States regulate the practice of medicine.
FDA regulates the distribution of medicines. States regulate how they are used.
It's "Dick" something you should be (or were) Familiar with
You know, in a not so past time, your remark would require me slapping your face, challenging you to a duel, (Pistols or Swords) until you pussied out like the mistake of nature (don't know/don't care you're XX/WY wants to be XY/XX, has a dick, used to have a dick) you are
but it's 2022 so I'll enjoy just Cerebrally Bee-Otch Slapping you...
Frank
You know, in a not so past time, your remark would require me slapping your face, challenging you to a duel, (Pistols or Swords) until you pussied out like the mistake of nature (don't know/don't care you're XX/WY wants to be XY/XX, has a dick, used to have a dick) you are
but it's 2022 so I'll enjoy just Cerebrally Bee-Otch Slapping you...
Frank
Queen Almathea thinks AIDS was invented by Jews to kill the Black Man. One day she might prove her theory!
Hi, Rhoid. Thank you for being the only reader stupid enough to reply to me. I missed you so much this morning.
I had muted David a long time ago, but it’s just as tiresome reading one side of a sick conversation.
Anyone who spends that much effort arguing with a lunatic is also firmly on the spectrum.
Bye.
You know, in a not so past time, your remark would require me slapping your face, challenging you to a duel, (Pistols or Swords) until you pussied out like the mistake of nature (don't know/don't care you're XX/WY wants to be XY/XX, has a dick, used to have a dick) you are
but it's 2022 so I'll enjoy just Cerebrally Bee-Otch Slapping you...
Frank
yesterday Frank said something to the effect that black women can't help themselves from mating. he gives the racists here a bad name
You know, in a not so past time, your remark would require me slapping your face, challenging you to a duel, (Pistols or Swords) until you pussied out like the mistake of nature (don't know/don't care you're XX/WY wants to be XY/XX, has a dick, used to have a dick) you are
but it's 2022 so I'll enjoy just Cerebrally Bee-Otch Slapping you...
Frank
Now Frankie, leave my Queenie alone. Call her Rhoid, our secret pet name.
Frankie. Did you know Rhoid overcame tremendous adversity growing up? Then grew up to be so well spoken, so well educated, and to borrow a word from Biden, so clean.
What a credit Queenie is.
You're off your game today. This is junior high stuff.
I'm too old for them (I'm not under 12), I'm not any risk from gays. Unless they active homosexuals pollute our nations blood supply again so we don't stigmatize the fragile homos.
Don't know about states but several hospital systems in several states did.
haha yeah, post-birth and late-term abortions are performed on zygotes! So true! It's so true! It's really just like that!
And you have to wonder what childhood most liberals had because they are obsessed with the sexuality and genitals of minors....
" Ignoring lunatics isn’t really an option, our polity is full of them."
And most of them are in Washington DC.
Well it’s up to you, but from now on when you post I can’t tell the difference between you, Behar, Kirkland, not guilty (that was for egregiously racist posts, although he occasionally added some content), misalliance, etc.
I don’t mind differences of opinion, but consistent worthless back and forth sniping, and overt racism gets muted.
Kasinski is getting the intelligent side of my conversation with Queenie.
1 in 6 boys are sexually assaulted.
2 in 100 men choose the homosexual lifestyle.
The data say what the data say.
Further, we see all the grooming going on in government schools and government pre-schools. It's all over the news. Haven't you been paying attention?
Haha yeah 100,000 post birth abortions don't matter, hahah it's just a drop in the bucket. After all, someone's gotta supply the little baby body parts for PP!
What are males that are attracted to other males called?
Whoever this is that’s bellowing about zygotes is ignoring the fact that zygote is one of many stages of human development. Or they’re making up a new species yet to be identified.
This coming from someone who thinks their side is the Party of Science. Which is of course, a joke.
Argue that the mother’s rights trump the baby’s rights up until a certain point in time. Ok, fine. But the zygote stuff is anti-science rationalization.
What the fuck are you talking about?
You think it's heterosexual males who are sexually assaulting those you males?
If you're a male and you're attracted to another male, are you saying that's only homosexual attraction if the other male is appropriately aged?
If you're a male and you're attracted to an 8 year old male, you're saying that's heterosexual?
Is this like your 12 week old zygote thing?
The definition of homosexual is same sex attraction.
You seem to think it means something else. Like homosexual is only age appropriate same sex attraction which is of course beyond stupid.
To make the obvious point that escaped QA, some boys are assaulted by adult females and/or other children. There are a lot more of those, and -- because of schools -- they have more opportunities for assault than adult men regardless of sexual orientation. Your statistics don't engage with those facts.
>Males made up 90 percent of adult child sexual assault perpetrators, while 3.9 percent of perpetrators were female, with a further 6 percent classified as ’unknown gender’ (McCloskey & Raphael, 2005).
So men and trannies make up 96% of adult child sexual assaults.
You seem to think that means I'm wrong.
Define “homosexual “.
I know the definition of a homosexual as a male who is attracted to another male.
What is your definition? How can we talk about this if we have two different definitions for the same word?
haha yeah 1% of 700,000 means we can ignore it!
haha yeah that makes sense! It's just zygotes! That kermet fella was just chopping up a bunch of clumps of cells!
You think a 12-week-old fetus doesn't have any brain, heart or limbs?
Fail. Retake biology along with the new Supreme Court nominee.
Right but you seem to be arguing that fetuses < 13 weeks are zygotes in your argument.
You think the zygote stage of fetal development is up to 13 weeks.
You're amazing dumb on this topic. (and others for sure)
I am pro-choice and I tend to sympathize with your position on this, but I wonder if it's a consistent principle when it comes to regulating individual liberty.
What percentage of murders in America are committed with AR-15s? It's essentially a rounding error. Do you agree that no one should focus on it?
Based on your response they’re claiming that a being with human DNA but missing a part or more is not human? Swell. Can we kill them when they’re born? When they’re 18 and smartassed so as to avoid college tuition? How about when they’re old and expensive to keep alive? I mean, if they’re not human it’s like killing a dog.
Species is determined by DNA. This guy just wants to kill something and is rationalizing a way to justify if. Science my ass.
A 12-week-old fetus doesn't have the brain activity required to exist, nor the lungs to breate air.
If the fetus doesn't have the most basic requirements to exist, it isn't a baby. It isn't a person. And it doesn't have rights.
You bolstered your zygote argument with your 13 week old abortion data.
Do you not even know what claims you make?
>The zygote party!
>Over nine out of ten abortions are done earlier than 13 weeks gestation brainiac.
Those were your comments back to back.
Same thread replying to one of my comments.
You: The zygote party!
Me: haha yeah, post-birth and late-term abortions are performed on zygotes! So true! It's so true! It's really just like that!
You: Over nine out of ten abortions are done earlier than 13 weeks gestation brainiac.
Same thread + same person = you being a filthy dirty liar
Right. The logical inference is you think human fetuses under 13 weeks are zygotes.
First, you can't remember what you said, then you lie about it, then you pretend what you said doesn't mean what you said.
Have you no shame?
>The zygote party!
>Over nine out of ten abortions are done earlier than 13 weeks gestation brainiac.
Get a room.
The issue is rights, I agree. And note that I haven’t claimed to have an answer as to when rights accrue to the developing human being. Because I honestly don’t. It’s not for me to say.
But what species is it? It’s a living creature. It has to be something. It’s programmed to be a human being…..
"Based on your response they’re claiming that a being with human DNA but missing a part or more is not human? Swell. Can we kill them when they’re born?"
Once they have the minimum necessary to exist, I am on your side. Until then, they aren't a person.
The whole "well then you must believe that you can kill them before they can support themselves" trope is some of the most dishonest and smug idiocy that anti-abortionists use. And there is a LOT of comeptition.
Understanding what "the ability to exist separate from the mother's body" AKA "an independent organism" (so having all organs and brain activity necessary to sustain life) means is simple. Do they really not comprehend? Are they truly that stupid?
It doesn't mean it can feed or clothe itself. It doesn't mean it can protect itself. It doesn't mean that it can pay a mortgage or get a job or read a book or anything else. And anti-abortionists know that's not what it means. But they can't refute the simple, basic, reasonable, logical, sensible, scientific truth of viability, so they descend into sophistry, dishonesty, and false equivalence.
They understand the concept. They just can't refute it and can't admit that it is true. So they lie.
That is one of the foundational bases of the anti-abortion movement. Dishonesty. Another is false (or blind, if you prefer) moral superiority. The third is authoritarianism. It is an unholy, anti-liberty, coercive cause that dismisses the rights and beliefs of everyone who doesn't agree. It is the worst of who we are as himans. It isn't evil, but it's evil's first cousin.
It is a potential human. Genetically, it is a homo sapien. But that doesn't make it a person with rights. That's the jump that anti-avortionists make without any rational basis.
I agree with both of you to a certain extent. I agree with Nelson that viability is likely the most reasonable place to begin any kind of regulation when it comes to abortion, but I do think Bevis is asking the proper question here.
We can go back and forth about definitions of personhood, but I do believe that's more of a philosophical question than we should be getting into legally. If you start talking lack of consciousness, the other side will point to people in comas as POTENTIAL conscious humans with the full rights of personhood. I suppose it's an interesting discussion but not really one with an objectively obvious across the board moral principle.
That's why I think Bevis is correct that we can just forego that discussion and get to a conflict of rights, which is very easy from a libertarian pro-choice perspective. Should a mother be legally compelled to give her (post birth) child a kidney if the child will die otherwise? Giving a kidney is inconvenient and has some risks but it's generally pretty safe. Can the State put a gun to her head to do it? That kid is a person and will die if she she refuses, so does her right to body autonomy trump the kid's right to her kidney (or uterus or any other part of her body for whatever length of time)? From my perspective, the State has no business using force or the threat of force to compel her to do it.
That said, if someone is in your house (or body) even if you knew there was a non-trivial chance that they'd crash your party even if you took precautions to keep them out, you have the right to remove them, but in the least violent way possible. So if they are viable, and you can remove them without killing them, I believe you are obliged to do so.
Okay, that's a difference. But there isn't an obvious moral distinction. A cynic might accuse you of latching onto an arbitrary distinction just because there happens to be one, not because you'd totally concede the argument if that particular distinction wasn't there.
If a baby is born alive and physically healthy but in a coma - and therefore has not yet experienced consciousness - and doctors tell you that there is a 90% chance the baby will wake up and be a fully conscious human being in a few months, is the kid not an actual person with any rights until he does so?
So it’s a non-human homo sapien. Well that’s……well, it’s not anything you’re going to come across in any biology work ever. C’mon, Party of Science. Live up to your talking point.
I think you finally agreed with me. Sort of. Roman gets it. Abortion is a conflict of rights. Mom vs zygote/fetus/baby. I think it would help a bunch if we could discuss it as what it is. Pro-lifers see it that way and mostly say that rights accrue from the beginning, frequently with exceptions related to the mother’s health. Pro-choices tend - like you - to dehumanize the living whatever-you-want-to-call-it. That’s how the most extreme choicers can advocate for abortion in the last month. Not a particularly sympathetic position. We shouldn’t be dehumanizing human beings because ultimately that causes really bad shit to happen.
A human being is a human being is a human being. Period. Any other attitude has historically taken humanity to some very dark places. Admitting that doesn’t mean you can’t still advocate that mom’s rights supersedes (insert your preferred term here)’s rights for x weeks.
Bevis, the problem is that a zygote has human DNA, but it isn't a human being. Most pro-life arguments require the blurring of lines, conflating two or more different thkngs, or ignoring the differeence between the potential for something and the reality of something.
Ultimately, the core of the pro-choice position is that you have to make a determination by the reality of the moment, not what may or may not happen in the future. It is an objective standard: is this an organism capable of existing for even a moment without the mother? If the answer is no, it isn't a person with rights. If the answer is yes, then there is a discussion to be had.
The anti-abortion position requires you to assume that the potential for something is the exact same as the reality. That the future must be treated as the present. That a fertilized egg will always become a living human being unless it is aborted.
That is fantasy. It is less than 50% likely to become a person. Abortion stops the development of a fetus in a miniscule percentage of cases. The vast majority of pregnancies fail with no outside interference whatsoever.
So why should anyone be forced to accept the fact-free belief that potential equals reality? Why shouldn't they be allowed to follow their own beliefs rather than having someone else's unsubstantiated (and theoretical) beliefs forced upon them? What are the widely held, established, objective, fact-based truths that justify moral coercion by the state?
And if the reality at the moment of decision doesn't justify that coercion, why shouldn't it be viewed as an unjustified constraint on liberty?
Nelson, if a human zygote is not a human being, what species is it?
There's is a reason that animal lifecycles are broken down into phases, such as "child" or "adult". The zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, etc, phases are all human beings at different stages of growth.
Have you ever heard of "in-vitro fertilization"? It's the process where doctors take an egg and sperm from donors, combine outside the body, do some testing, then eventually return to implant them into a mother's body. This process can take 4-6 weeks. That's a bit longer than a 'moment'.
If you want to claim it doesn't count, because the cells are being provided medical care, you then need to answer: is someone in the ICU still a 'person'? How about a human in a coma? Is a newborn? How about a human with gaping gunshot wounds?
Incidentally, even if you claim "spilled upon the ground", most human cells will survive for at least an hour - some can last for much longer.
Nelson,
I get why you value a human who has attained consciousness over one who hasn't, but I don't understand why you place such an emphasis on your own definition of "person" as if it's somehow self-evidently true and meaningful in some objective sense. That's just a classification that could theoretically be assigned at a different point, depending on who is doing the classifying. Consciousness, or lack of physical dependency (or the combination of the two) certainly isn't a scientific definition of "person", if science would ever even try to delve into such esoteric waters.
What if the dictionary had a different definition of "person" than you do? Would that impact any of our moral or utilitarian arguments? All it would tell me is that perhaps the word lacks significant clarity to be useful. And we honestly don't need your very specific definition of "personhood" in order to make a very clear rights based argument for (pre-viability) abortion. It is simply not a justifiable use of force to compel one "person" to use her own body to sustain the life of another "person."
You didn't address my example above about a baby born in a coma. Let's forget 90%, say there is a 40% or even 10% chance that the baby will wake up in a few months and acquire consciousness if we just leave it in the NICU. While we're waiting for that, can we use the conscious-less tot as target practice because it isn't a person and has no rights?
But throw in the stipulation that the only way for the baby to possibly wake up and achieve consciousness is if you hook yourself up to this kid for a few weeks for a constant transfusion. Do you have the right to opt out of that scenario and walk away, knowing that if you do the kid will die? Of course you have that option. Classifying the unconscious kid as a "person" or "not a person" is purely academic.
I think my kidney example is also apt. We wouldn't force a mother to donate a kidney to her own child (of any age) even if she were the only compatible donor, thus she is sentencing the child to die if she doesn't do it. And if the pro-lifers want to throw in the monkey wrench of the sex act making the woman responsible for her fetus so it's different, I'll add the stipulation that this mother has a history of kidney disease in her family, so perhaps there was an even greater chance that she'd be put to this decision than the chances of a condom breaking during sex.
I don't care if you want to call it a baby for emotional reasons, or a clump of stupid cells that's too dumb to breathe without a tube in its belly. Whatever gets you through the night. But it changes nothing in terms what constitutes justifiable force by the state.
While I agree with both you and Nelson policy-wise, I think you are making a mistake when you assume the worst about people who disagree with you. It's certainly not a mistake exclusive to the left. I believe conservatives make this same mistake when assuming that everyone who leans left does so simply because they hate freedom and long for a 1984 style dystopian world of total state control over our very thoughts.
While politicians certainly have incentives to lie about their true motives for the sake of political victories, the general rank and file citizen doesn't usually operate this way, and they have absolutely no problem being honest about why they want certain policies in place.
Gun rights advocates aren't fetishists. They don't want to fuck their guns any more than free-speech advocates want to fuck their Tweets. They will gladly tell you why they believe what they believe, very much like the people who agree with you on every single issue will honestly scream from the mountain tops why they think they're right.
And while maybe there is a small percentage of pro-life conservatives who secretly agree with you about stupid zygotes and where the legal line of competing rights should objectively be drawn, they are pathological and emotionally twisted enough to lie about all of that so they can sit in their basement rubbing their hands together, saying, "excellent" (Mr. Burns style) at the prospect of simply controlling women... most of the people who disagree with us on this issue probably think abortion is murder.
If we have the better moral and policy argument, we should simply make it. If we need to categorize the opposing side as evil liars in order to feel we have the better position, then we probably don't. And doing so only helps to convince them that we are not really interested in individual liberty for its own sake, but we're really just interested in gleefully killing babies to stick it to the "big bad Christian conservatives."
If they're not correct about our hidden and perverse motives, perhaps we are equally mistaken about theirs.
I tend to agree about the misguided part. But if at least past of their agenda is about preventing recreational sex, doesn't that control men as much as it controls women? And they aren't really doing men any favors by guaranteeing them 18 years of child support payments as punishment for a broken condom.
Roman, I'm not assuming the worst about people who are in the "illegal in all or most cases" camp. I differentiate between pro-life (illegal in most cases) and anti-abortion (illegal in all cases).
I assume that all of them are genuine in their opposition to abortion. I can even sympathize with pro-choice people who personally oppose abortion, but believe that it is a decision for each person to make for themselves (the libertarian/pro-liberty position). That is a hard, but admirable, position to be in.
Anti-abortionists are a different matter. They have a belief that very few Americans share, but feel their beliefs are more important rhan everyone else's. They believe it is acceptable to force the vast majority of Americans to have their personal agency taken away and be compelled to follow someone else's moral beliefs and that is wrong.
I also disagree with the dishonesty of the anti-abortion rhetoric, but that's to be expected from fringe actors.
Is it the 700 club that is pushing all the trans stuff?
Fair enough.