The Volokh Conspiracy
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Why Aren't Texas Abortion Providers Actively Resisting S.B. 8?
The intervenors argue that the abortion providers "fear" the Court will overrule Roe and Casey.
One criticism of S.B. 8 is that this private enforcement regime would allow blue states to prohibit firearm ownership. I've asked gun rights activists what would happen if California banned the sale and possession of handguns through a private cause of action. Their response: "Come and take it." They would engage in active civil disobedience, and resist the law. They would be happy to get sued, and would win in court every time. Of course, gun rights activists know that Heller is secure. Even if the Court will not expand the Second Amendment to conceal carry in Bruen, there is no realistic chance the Court scales back the right to keep a gun in the home.
Abortion, however, stands in a very different position. Roe and Casey are on the chopping block. There is a chance both precedents are overruled this Term. And abortion providers understand this risk all too well. As a result, with few exceptions, abortion providers have strictly complied with S.B. 8. Indeed, during the brief interregnum before the Fifth Circuit stayed Judge Pitman's ruling, Planned Parenthood refused to provide post-cardiac-activity abortions. Why? Under S.B. 8, the providers would be subject to retroactive liability. And those suits could bankrupt Planned Parenthood.
This fear of prospective liability has largely defined the litigation strategy. Planned Parenthood, as well as the United States, have gone on offense to avoid raising their constitutional arguments in a clean, defensive posture. Today, briefs were filed in United States v. Texas. The intervenors make this point directly:
The United States also complains that "the theoretical availability of S.B. 8's 'undue burden' defense has not actually prevented the law from achieving near-total deterrence of covered abortions." Mot. to Vacate Stay at 15. But that is because this Court is currently considering whether to limit or overrule Roe and Casey.28 See Tex. Health & Safety Code § 171.209(e) ("The affirmative defense under Subsection (b) is not available if the United States Supreme Court overrules Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973) or Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992)"). If abortion providers felt confident that this Court would persist in its support for Roe and Casey, then they could violate the statute without fear of liability. The deterrence comes from the uncertainty surrounding the future of Roe, and there is nothing unconstitutional about a statute that threatens to impose retroactive civil liability in response to a Supreme Court ruling.
The Intervenors argue forcefully that the proper channel to review this law would be in a defensive posture. And they draw an analogy to the wedding provider cases:
[T]his Court has no basis in fact or law to presume that the Texas courts would reject valid constitutional defenses asserted in SB 8 litigation. The United States does not even assert otherwise; it just complains that SB 8 deters abortion providers from defying the law and inviting this litigation. But that objection is misguided and immaterial. It is common that the risk of losing a constitutional defense will deter a party from engaging in protected conduct—think of the Christian wedding vendors who are facing threats of private lawsuits if they decline to participate in same-sex weddings—but the deterrence comes from the uncertainty on whether the courts will ultimately accept their constitutional defense. See Arlene's Flowers, Inc. v. Washington, 141 S. Ct. 2884 (2021) (denying certiorari). What is deterring abortion providers here is not the procedural structure of SB 8 or its threatened penalties, but the uncertain status of the right to abortion given the grant of certiorari in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, No. 19-1392. Few if any rational abortion providers will risk violating SB 8 when this Court is considering whether to overrule Roe and Casey. That is what is inducing Texas abortion providers to comply with SB 8.
Baronelle Stutzman and Jack Phillips were placed in this position.
Update: Shortly after I wrote this post, the Firearms Policy Coalition filed an amicus brief in support of DOJ in U.S. v. Texas. The group sees S.B. 8 as the type of law that could be used to violate gun rights:
FPC is interested in this case because the approach used by Texas to avoid pre-enforcement re-view of its restriction on abortion and its delegation of enforcement to private litigants could just as easily be used by other States to restrict First and Second Amendment rights or, indeed, virtually any settled or debated constitutional right. FPC takes no position on whether abortion should be protected by the Constitution but believes that the judicial review of restrictions on established constitutional rights, especially those protected under this Court's cases, cannot be circumvented in the manner used by Texas.
What do I know?
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OK, let's track this out. Second Amendment proponents tell us that guns, including guns that fire off 100 rounds a minute, are necessary to protect us from government tyranny. Suppose abortion providers were to adopt the same methodology and start shooting private plaintiffs, process servers, court officers, and anyone else whom they view as guilty of tyranny by preventing them from performing abortions. (I know, the pro-life group doesn't consider that tyranny, which highlights the problem that tyranny is largely in the eye of the beholder.) What result then?
Well, I don't know what result then, and neither does anyone else, but I'm pretty confidant that almost nobody would be happy with it. So maybe both sides need to re-examine if that's a shoe they would want on the other foot.
Obviously if abortion providers were to do that they would be arrested or shot dead resisting arrest. Not seeing the analogy here.
Anyone forcibly resisting what they consider to be government tyranny is risking death or arrest, so how are abortion providers different from, i.e., right wing militia groups? Any time someone says let's use guns to protect ourselves from tyranny, the prevailing party is going to be the last guy standing, which is (1) unpredictable in advance and (2) has nothing to do with who was actually right on the merits of the dispute.
And the right has made a lot of policy decisions based on a wager that the left won't then adopt their methods. That's increasingly looking like a risky bet.
You've got that backwards. It's the progs in the streets using violence.
"...so how are abortion providers different from, i.e.[sic], right wing militia groups?"
Not even getting the question. What's a big business have to do with rando preppers?
The abortionists can go back to work whenever they want in TX, as I've repeatedly pointed out long before today.
Uh, it is the anti-abortion movement that has an active domestic terrorist wing.
Reread what you're purporting to rebut before attempting to.
Again, it's not the anti-abortion movement or the right generally that's spent the last year or two rioting in the streets.
Are "Second Amendment proponents" currently shooting government officials?
Then don't be stupid.
"fire off 100 rounds a minute"
No semi-auto can fire at that rate. Because no one can depress the trigger at that rate.
Currently, no, but I keep hearing threats. There was an attempt to kidnap the Governor of Michigan.
An FBI plot as usual.
https://news.yahoo.com/fbi-informants-had-bigger-role-213400243.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmluZy5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHClWX2MV8FtMuquZ8PkDg24x0IbUV94y96BTkuGE3965IUrGYhH4msnKSeJPGoF9mkCfieL3zYZEoQOiF0Qwt9mVOFus519srCbRRrm8xuhHUCP9R_Lw8cSExT_uIBGPIt3tm9VXdlKDEgm7S91IWvLzt6ldGBQrQ7g0MRsp2En
A silly conspiracy theory as usual.
12 informants, 14 indicted.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=EVgKtM6w&id=45C229A092952FF38BCC05993A59FCA964EC8BB4&thid=OIP.EVgKtM6w24Lh0lSyV9rpAAHaIL&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F77%2F49%2F82%2F7749823dca20984128210385df7b233d.jpg&cdnurl=https%3A%2F%2Fth.bing.com%2Fth%2Fid%2FR.11580ab4ceb0db82e1d254b257dae900%3Frik%3DtIvsZKn8WTqZBQ%26pid%3DImgRaw%26r%3D0&exph=811&expw=735&q=far+side+cartoon+all+sheep+are+wolves&simid=607997486131061037&form=IRPRST&ck=E1A730473700A53D20A59E3ED1F79621&selectedindex=0&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0&pivotparams=insightsToken%3Dccid_bMpBQH5C*cp_150AE57F85039E1D5C805B9DCBF8BA06*mid_6116F0E11BC28EF2A24FCB5DC52CCE19A4E78846*simid_608004233533288807*thid_OIP.bMpBQH5CxW1o6yGj0tAW2AAAAA&vt=0&sim=11&iss=VSI&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0
Doesn't mean the informants weren't reporting on an actual plot.
They were the ringleaders. The rest of the group were a bunch of dullards who could have been convinced to join a plot to kidnap Trump, the Pope, John Cena, Jim Harbaugh, etc.
Yeah, but most people would have said no.
So the FBI had to sift through enough patsys to find a number large enough to make it look (if you don't look closely or are motivated by the likes of the Russia Russia Russia hoax) like they'd done something real. They've still only foiled a plot made out of their own creation and entrapment.
"We had to create, organize and fund the plot so we could foil it" has all the moral authority of "It became necessary to destroy the town to save it".
Works for Krychek.
Gandy, and Michael, your idiotic conspiracy theories are just that, idiotic conspiracy theories.
By the way, doesn't it get a bit tiresome to keep pretending that stuff that took place in broad daylight didn't happen?
This one isn't a conspiracy theory.
This was basically entrapment by the FBI
According to the conspiracy theory, yes.
Do you understand how entrapment works?
Are you familiar with the details of the case?
Yes and yes, and I also understand conspiracy theories.
Entrapment is only a defense if the defendant was not otherwise inclined to commit the crime. The eagerness with which these defendants all signed on strongly suggests that that is not the case here. It doesn't matter if they weren't the ones who came up with the idea first.
It's not inclination. It's PREDISPOSITION. Which is different.
Is there any evidence that these individuals engaged in terrorist or kidnapping-type actions before? Were they persuaded to do so by government agents through extensive conversations, persuasion, fiscal and material assistance?
Jacobson v. United States gives a nice example. That was far less persuasion than was used in this case.
Here's how entrapment works...
1. Send 2 FBI informants to make contact with a militia group in Michigan. They like playing paintball and saying the government doesn't defend their rights. But they've never done anything.
2. The FBI informants egg them on. They work them. Through weeks of conversation. They say that these militia members should act on their words.
3. Then the FBI informants (after weeks of persuading) introduce them to OTHER FBI informants. With the concept that they should take action. It's a "national action". "Everyone is on board..."
4. The militia members hedge. They don't have the funds...they don't know how to blow up a bridge.
5. The FBI informants say something like "we got this. We'll pay for everything. We'll blow up the bridge. This is for America. You love America...right?"
6. The militia members go along for the ride. The informants are their friends....they've been persuaded, even if they've never done anything like this before. They still never have actually hurt anyone. But then they get nailed for terrorism.
---That's entrapment---
For more on how entrapment works, see the following decision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._United_States
Your in the wrong site man....slate or salon or the Atlantic is where you need to go. Reason is quickly becoming taken over by real libertarians for the first time in years...Just like the Von Mises Caucus getting rid of that progressive Joe Bishop-Henchman and Nick Swarwak...left libertarians are not libertarians and should go back to the troyskyite hole they came from.
Abortion..not in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution. Therefore it is a State's alone decision not the Feds...
We are winning..the bosheviks and cultural marxists are losing
Von Mises is to economics what Lysenko is to biology.
You have an apt handle, Mr. Ipse Dixit.
With a bump stock I think you can get off 100/min.
And ther Vegas shooter sounded pretty mich like a machine gun.
But a CA anti-gun "SB8" would be just as ineffective as TX SB8. Hysteria about armed resistance in that context is puerile.
Nah, that's only 1.6 rounds a second, I'm pretty sure your average gun owner could pull the trigger that rapidly at least for a short while.
I mean, 100 rounds a minute? Machine guns start at 600 rounds a minute, 100 a minute is nothing, you could count the individual shots!
I have Rutger 22...semi auto..you can't get magazine that holds 100 rounds...I'm not sure you can get one for a larger rife either or a shotgun
I've got a Calico carbine, in 9mm, and it has a 100 round magazine. But I was talking about rate, not number. Sure, with a 19 round magazine you cold only keep it up for 11-12 seconds, but, again, rate.
Maybe with a revolver. Might want to check out Jerry Miculek on youtube.
I would like to see the explanation of what route of logic makes you think that people start killing government agents whenever they have a minor quibble with a legal regime.
I would like to see where I actually said that.
Well, "for if it prosper..." is the usual rule.
If you can get your pro-abortionists to get together and get well-enough armed that their mass-murder of unarmed government employees produces enough support amongst the populace to change the laws, then they've won!
Of course, Timothy McVeigh had similar arguments when he took action. How'd that turn out for him? Were you convinced by his actions in the justice of his cause?
McVeigh had a just cause, he was torqued about the government increasingly committing outright atrocities against the citizenry. Ruby Ridge and Waco weren't one-offs, they were the culmination of a trend of feds doing things like ending standoffs by setting houses on fire with people in them.
Unfortunately, McVeigh chose an unjust means to protest this: He set out to prove to the government that they'd better stop because they weren't themselves immune to atrocities. So he committed one himself.
And, it worked. The government stopped doing that sort of thing. But that's no excuse for mass murder.
A lot of us thought he could have made his point by just leaving the van there without setting the timer, and calling it in, without killing anybody. That's not how he did it, so he fully deserved to fry.
Do you condemn the terrorists who have assassinated abortion providers and bombed clinics, and then when prosecuted, attempted to raise a necessity defense?
Sure. It really doesn't work, you know, somebody else just does the abortion instead, and it hurts the cause of outlawing them. So there's no countervailing good to compensate for the evil.
I'm going to disagree with you about how that turned out.
McVeigh's cause never got any traction - the government slowed escalating law enforcement confrontations to near nuclear levels because it turns out the populace doesn't like watching troops and police burn down people's buildings even if they think the people are bad.
It was bad PR - not fear of more McVeighs or support for him - that convinced the government to tone it down a little. Or, at least, make it more TV palatable.
Funny that the bad PR effect didn't kick in until after the bombing, then.
What did the government do between '93 and '95 that was along the lines of Ruby Ridge or Waco? As I remember it, that was also the big rise of the "militia movements" that so scared media folks in the '90s.
The Freeman Ranch was '96, which was certainly a situation where the Federal government was eager to avoid bad PR, and it ended without violence.
More direct measures of PR impact: Clinton's approval dropped several percent shortly after Waco, and by '99 2/3s of people believed the government had started the fires and lied to cover it up (up from under 40% in '93).
Just days after the OK City bombing, 60% of people disapproved of the government's handling of Waco, even as 45% of people stated they were concerned that they, personally, would be killed in a similar attack (a number than decreased to 20% just a few years later).
(Polls taken from Gallup or AP)
Bombing of abortion clinics is a thing. I am sure that there are some lefties who would do the same to judges and process servers. Judges get death threats all the time in fact.
"They are crazy too" is not an argument. I am opposed to SB8 as much as anyone, but y' need to go to yoga and stay off the internet for a while.
"They would be happy to get sued."
No, Professor, they would not. Nobody is 'happy' to have to spend unrecoverable (the last time I checked S.B. 8) legal fees to defend a Constitutional right which is supposed to not be violated in the first place.
What legal fees? If you can't be convicted why hire a lawyer?
There is the famed maxim about having a fool for a client. Dabbling in the law without appropriate training is fraught with peril.
And there are dimwits who try extremely hard to subsitute advertising cliches for thought and thereby routinely make asses of themselves.
With Casey in effect SB8 defenses are idiot-proof. It is of course pointless to try once again tio explain this to an idiot like you. You will just look at me blankly and claim, again, that I'm lying.
Have you ever tried a lawsuit?
Have you never proved your worthlessness by charging for representing a client who could have done just as well pro se?
So your advice here is that this hypothetical defendant should argue pro se before the Supreme Court???
Prof. Blackman expressed it in a predictably stupid way, but I think he's basically correct that people interested in Second Amendment impact litigation would be net beneficiaries of a hoplophobic jurisdiction moving its gun regulations to an SB 8-style system.
‘Gun nuttery is secure in modern America but abortion is on the way out,’ muttered every disaffected, obsolete Republican who apparently can not count to 13.
C'mon Kook, you can't even get to ten without fogetting what number to call that next pointy thing coming out of your palm..
Where's the video?
I’m traveling. No music. You’ll have to get by on bigotry, ignorance, backwardness, and superstition for another day or two.
I don't know how many times that I've said that I don't look at your videos but like everything else that is true it just doesn't penetrate your skull, does it?
You do not look at my videos.
Your betters disregard your right-wing preferences as they shape the progress with which you and every other Republican clinger will comply for the rest of your downscale, bitter lives.
I am content.
Open wider, clingers.
Your betters may not be so gracious in future progress.
Don't project your deviant sexual desires onto others. We're not like you.
Be comforted that no one here numbers you among our "Betters".
I don’t care what you think. What matters is your continuing compliance, then replacement.
Critics of S.B. 8 is that this private enforcement regime would allow blue states to prohibit firearm ownership. I've asked a gun rights activists what would happen if California banned the sale and possession of handguns through a private cause of action. Their response: "Come and take it." They would engage in active civil disobedience, and resist the law. They would be happy to get sued, and would win in court every time. Of course, gun rights activists know that Heller is secure. Even if the Court will not expand the Second Amendment to conceal carry in Bruen, there is no realistic chance the Court scales back the right to keep a gun in the home.
This is easy to say, but one wonders what they would actually do if faced with the prospect of lawsuits. Maybe they would back up the tough talk, but it's a lot easier to say this stuff when you aren't actually facing litigation.
No need to hire a lawyer if the courts can't award damages.
Do you think that the court would just refuse sua sponte, without any defense presented? Or if the defendant does not answer the complaint; that the court would refuse to enter a default judgment?
If a defense is necessary, then the gun person must present one, and the old adage about the man who represents himself...
https://www.acbanet.org/2017/07/19/man-represents-fool-client/
As with SB8, no involved defense is necessary. Just substitute "This violates Heller" for "This violates Casey." Somebody will publish a book or a website with all the forms and directions. Again, you don't have to worry about being your own lawyer IN THE CASE OF -THIS- KIND OF LAW because EVERYONE is IMMUNE FROM DAMAGES, COSTS OR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF if they say the magic words. The State court systems don't want the Feds butting in so they'll find a way to squelch any gun-grabber trial judges dumb enough to not get the memo, or pro-gun ones devious enough to award damages in order to invite in the Feds.
Have you ever tried a lawsuit, Gandydancer?
That you apparently claim to have done it is proof enough of how little intelligence is required.
But, I'll bite. Tell me how pro se can bite you as the defendent in an SB8 suit, Casey remaining in effect and assuming the defendant can read and write at an abortionist level and, unlike you, has a three digit IQ.
You are dodging my question. Trial advocacy is no easy task for those with proper training, let alone for any pro se litigant.
It is if you can't lose.
The plaintiff argues that you, Gandydancer, the defendant, don't have standing to raise Casey as a defense. You, Gandydancer, the defendant, being pro se, don't know how to respond. The court rules that you, Gandydancer, lack standing to assert that defense under the law. And then you, Gandydancer, hear the two words that you're so used to being told: you lose.
While I'm sure lots of people would comply with the new law, I do think it's a safe bet that a few would, including some people who really want to have a relatively easy way to litigate a Second Amendment claiim.
Of course, this entire post ignores the fact that at least one doctor has performed an abortion that would be prohibited by SB 8, apparently with the express intention of provoking a lawsuit that he could then use to raise the constitutional defense. The omission is particularly striking since Prof. Blackman has posted about that guy, and the ensuing litigation, at least five times!
It's no accident that the only suits against that guy are by pro-abortion flakes. And then there's that determinedly idiotic Fed judge in IL who thinks he's entitled to decide who gets the damages that TX courts haven't awarded -- and which will never get awarded.
The relief that the interpleader plaintiff, Dr. Braid, seeks includes a judgment that there is no liability and he is the one entitled to the subject $10,000.
As I just pointed out, moron, and as I pointed out the last time you said this, THERE IS NO "subject $10,000", and never will be.
Have you read Dr. Braid´s interpleader complaint? Yes or no.
Did you look there for a counterargument to mine? B/c you sure can't seem to come up with one on your own.
Again, you dodge my question. Have you read the complaint?
If you genuinely wanted someone to read it, <a href="https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/TX-abortion-Braid-v-Stilley-initial.pdf"you'd post a link."
I assume you're appealing to this language: "SB8 violates the United States Constitution in light of, inter alia, the rights
guaranteed under Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), and Dr. Braid is entitled to avoid or keep any payment allegedly owed for his violation of SB8."
He's not asserting he should be paid $10K in damages by one or more of the plaintiffs. He's asserting none of them should be paid, and so he should get to KEEP the $10K. That no money should change hands.
Here's the fixed link. Corrected link.
Sure, it's not like red flag laws exist to do exactly the same thing but with fewer controls and more room for abuse that could be used for comparison.
"There is a chance both precedents are overruled this Term."
There is an equal chance I will win the lottery the next time I play.
Well, the law of large numbers holds that somebody is going to win the lottery. Probably won't be either of us, though.
Krycheck_2, I think you may be mistaken about the law of large numbers, which says that, if an experiment is done many times, the average result should be close to the actual unknown mean. It is true for most probability distributions, but famously fails for the Cauchy distribution, which has a median but no mean.
If you have enough people buying lottery tickets, eventually one of them will hit the right numbers. The "experiment" is the purchase of lottery tickets and the "actual unknown mean" is the winning set of numbers.
That has nothing to do with the law of large numbers. Eyesay's description was accurate, as it describes sample distributions, not single outcomes.
And your description of a lottery as an "experiment" with the "unknown mean" being the winning numbers is also incorrect.
In the case of any random drawing like most lotteries, there is no mean, even though there are numbers used to represent abstract bins. It's more akin to the idea of drawing a single colored ball from an urn of uncolored ones (multiple people drawing, IID, with replacement).
What you are reaching for is the idea that if something is possible, it will eventually happen, given enough repetition. This does not have a widespread formal name, but I've seen it called the Law of Inevitability a few times.
Dunno what Blackman is thinking. It's a lock that few if any abortions that were protected against enforcement of anti-abortion laws under Casey will become penalizable. "Overturned"? Nah. Tiny scratches, maybe.
The drama-queen act by the abortionists can't really be fear of anything much happening to their business, unless they're smoking their own stash.
I think you're right, but for a different reason. The realities of the electoral college are that the presidency is determined by suburban voters in Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida, who are largely pro-choice. If the court were to overturn Roe, there's a distinct possibility the White House would stay Democratic for the next fifty years.
However, that cannot be counted on. So long as there is a majority on the court that would like to overturn Roe, Roe isn't safe.
"presidency is determined by suburban voters in Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida"
Obsolete view. GOP has already largely lost its suburban edge, its rural and exurban voters who provide its votes.
IDK about Penn., but Ohio is solidly GOP now.
And Ohio has enough rural and exurban voters to overcome the cities and the suburbs?
Ohio has gone Republican in the last couple of elections, but it's too early to tell if it's a trend or a fluke. However, my point still stands that if the Supreme Court were to actually overturn Roe, you would see significant shift.
Nah, a modest one at best.
Neither of us knows of course. Its worth the risk.
Why? Abortion wouldn't suddenly become illegal in pro-abortion states. PA voters who have no difficulty getting abortions will vote for the now thoroughly-exposed crazies b/c it's more difficlt to get an abortion in TX?
If by thoroughly exposed crazies you mean Republicans, then no. But I think you underestimate the extent to which abortion rights is a core principle for a lot of suburban women.
"Ohio is solidly GOP now." And yet, Sherrod Brown keeps winning. Maybe because working class socially conservative whites see that he really is with them on economic issues.
Roe will likely be cited with approval in fact. "we acknowledge that there is a 14th amendment right to abortions"
At best they will change Casey's test with a new test more favorable to life.
Heck, they never overturned the Slaugherhouse cases, the Supreme court is NOT big on directly overturning its own prior rulings.
That doesn't mean they wouldn't qualify the heck out of it.
What SB8 means by "overturning Casey" is a bit mysterious.
It occurs to me that TX anti-abortion laws are presumably still enforcable against SOME abortions (e.g., post viability ones, not to save the mother). And SB8 need not be a nullity against the abortionists that provide THEM. So, I w/d my previous statements that SB8 is a total nullity.
Mind, in theory the Texas laws that haven't been federally enjoined should be enforced by normal mechanisms, and not need SB8.
Well, maybe in Austin SB8 would be needed.
I’d say the chance is higher than that. The Mississippi law is unequivocably inconsistent with Roe and Casey, yet the Supreme Court granted cert. Why would they grant cert unless they were seriously thinking of finding it constitutional?
Moreover, before Ginsburg got replaced by Barrett, there was a string of 5-4 decisions striking down abortion laws. You don’t think it isn’t seriously plausible that Barrett replacing Ginsberg will tip things 5-4 the other way?
5-4 for a bit, then 7-6 or perhaps 8-5.
Clingers hardest hit.
"Why would they grant cert unless they were seriously thinking of finding it constitutional?"
Maybe they want to foreclose the SB8 enforcement model.
I would be surprised if Roe were explicitly overturned. I would not be shocked if Roe's promise that states could regulate abortion was given real teeth, so that they could abolish post 1st trimester elective abortions, and rein in pretextual claims of medical necessity.
Any arguments about the evils or benefits of guns aside, no one in government can seize the millions already in private hands There are just too many out there, we have no idea who has most of them, and any resistance is likely to be, let's say, armed.
Just like rounding up the 10-30 million illegal immigrants the size of the task makes it impossible.
All it takes is the will to do it. See Operation Wetback.
Also applies to gun grabbing.
How did that work out in Iraq and Afghanistan? Or are you saying that the US government didn't really have the will to take guns out of the hands of private militias there?
Uh, the US tolerated private militias openly armed and funded by Iran while in Iraq, so I have no idea why you think the US ever had the "will to take guns out of the hands of private militias there".
SB-8: Shelby Slawson and Bryan Hughes introduced the bills in the TX House and Senate. But who wrote the danged law?! That has to be one very smart lawyer (or team of lawyers). I'd love to hear how they thought through everything; namely, the process they used to anticipate, and then frustrate legal challenge.
Jonathan Mitchell
https://jezebel.com/what-we-know-about-the-conservative-lawyer-behind-s-b-1847662369
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/12/us/politics/texas-abortion-lawyer-jonathan-mitchell.html
Those of us who followed the Threadnaught on Twitter already know about the legal chops of Hughes old law firm, and their penchant for fraud. IDK about Hughes himself.
There's another difference that you're ignoring. The right to keep and bear arms is actually mentioned in the Constitution. The right to abortion appears nowhere.
bingo...the left libertarians and the progs have this bizarre notion that "rights" are decided upon by legislatures or the supreme court...100 years of this bullshit..and it needs to end. Abortion is a States issue period...and sorry progs..there are no such things as "civil rights"..only natural rights..life, liberty and property..
I've been saying for a long time if progressives were serious about defending rights (abortion, same sex marriage, etc) they'd be introducing constitutional amendments to protect them in every Congress, but they never submit any such amendments.
The reason is they need these rights to exist on a knife edge, because that's how they campaign for election: Vote for me or the Republicans will ban abortion. Vote for me or the Republicans will make it so you can't get married
The basic problem there is that, like the ERA, those amendments would almost certainly not be ratified. Most of them would never even make it out of Congress to be sent to the states.
And trying and failing to amend the Constitution to mean something tends to undercut claims that it already means it, (Not that this stopped the Supreme court when it came to reading the ERA into the 14th amendment.) at least from a public relations standpoint.
The fact that people out there argue the Constitution doesn't say these things means there is no harm in clarification. They can even draft an amendment that specifically states it is clarifying an already existing right
As for them not being ratified, they clearly have no problem with virtue signaling, and introducing the amendment is just another virtue signal. It would also give them additional ammo to use against any opponent who voted against the amendment.
But as I said, they need these rights to exist on a knife edge, able to be taken away the moment you vote for someone who isn't a Democrat. For example they probably have the votes to get DACA codified with legislation, but it still exists only as an EO, and I'm sure "the Republicans will try to take away DACA again" will be a campaign issue in 2024
If you support the outlawing of abortion, you are necessarily either: (A) a libertarian who does so based on fetus having the right to life/liberty; or (B) not a libertarian because you think that the government should be used as a mechanism to control others to conform to your beliefs (that abortion is wrong).
The only anti-abortion position compatible with libertarianism MUST center on the fetus’ right to life/liberty. Period.
So, let’s flip your criticism of Dems and ask: Why have Repubs not proposed an Amendment to clarify that the Constitution applies to a fetus/unborn human? Every single response you give for why the Dems should have but haven’t offered an Abortion Rights Amendment applies equally to why the Repubs should have but haven’t offered a Fetus Constitutional Rights Amendment.
Look, I’m not a Dem. I’m not a Repub. Don’t give a crap about left v right. I’m beholden to logic and facts, not a party or platform. And libertarianism strikes me as a lot less flawed than other political ideologies. I think abortion carries huge moral implications, and firmly reject the clump of cells BS.
But you can’t square libertarianism and anti-abortionism unless you scrap BS like SB8 and base the abortion-restriction statute or constitutional amendment on a RIGHT TO LIFE of the fetus. And it seems glaringly partisan and anti-libertarian to call out Dems for lack of an Abortion Amendment while not calling out Repubs in this same way. Get the fetal/unborn right codified/clarified or quit fucking meddling in people’s lives, god damnit! Show me one fucking clause in the constitution or in Texas Code that says an unborn human/fetus has a right to be born. Or fuck off until the law is amended.
Many rights that are not specifically mentioned in the Constitution have been recognized by SCOTUS as being within the ambit of the liberty protected by the substantive component of the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. These include the right to marry, to have children, to direct the education and upbringing of one´s children, to marital privacy, to use contraception,to bodily integrity and to abortion. See, Washington v. Glucksburg, 521 U.S. 702 (1997).
How many of these fundamental liberty rights do you propose to subject to the vicissitudes of state legislative politics?
If SCOTUS had to pull it out of its ass it's probably not actually a fundamental right. See post-heartbeat abortion and homo "marriage". A rationale for the right to not be unwillingly Jabbed being declared "fundamental" could be as easily declared obvious, but you lack the self-awareness to notice that.
What do you know of fundamental constitutional rights? The opinion of the Court in Glucksburg was authored by Chief Justice Rehnquist-- no flaming liberal. The decisions he cited date back to 1923.
Substantive due process is a well established doctrine and includes a number of rights not specifically mentioned in the constitutional text.
You also lack the reading comprehension skills to notice how unresponsive your "reply" is to anything I wrote.
And,no, I am not bound by anything said by Rehnquist, so try to do better than appeals to bogus authority, if you can.
The hit dog hollers.
You seem to have quite a problem with regarding SCOTUS decisions that run counter to your personal proclivities as being authoritative. Why is that?
When did Korimatsu stop being "authoritative"?
When it was overruled. Do you think you have a point there?
If SCOTUS had to pull it out of its ass it’s probably not actually a fundamental right.
The point here is that the 9th Amendment explicitly tells us not to "deny or disparage" a right just because it isn't among those the Constitution does list. It doesn't say how to decide whether a claimed right should be protected, just that we can't duck the question entirely and say no because we don't feel like it. Whether SCOTUS has to "pull it out of its ass" or reason through the issue carefully, it has to answer the question put before it.
Learn the history. Madison said it best during the debates over the Bill of Rights that he was instrumental in drafting.
It has been objected also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration; and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were consequently insecure. This is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; but, I conceive, that it may be guarded against. I have attempted it, as gentlemen may see by turning to the last clause of the fourth resolution.
If you don't like how the SCOTUS has decided whether rights should be protected or not in the past, feel free to offer a better method. You can even use Obergefell as an example of how you would have answered differently. Hopefully, your suggestion will something other than that you aren't a fan of "homo "marriage"".
After repeatedly and spitefully subverting our civil legal system to intimidate, attack, and financially ruin Jack Phillips and other Christian business owners (to advance their key Marxist political agenda items of expanding sexual perversion across America while attacking bourgeois capitalism), Progressives are upset to DISCOVER that the shoe is now firmly on the other foot in Texas and about to kick the ever-livin' tar out of them.
Good!
Critics of S.B. 8 is that this private enforcement regime would allow blue states to prohibit firearm ownership. I've asked a gun rights activists what would happen if California banned the sale and possession of handguns
Posting without even re-reading the text is what a goofball might do.
"...would allow blue states to prohibit firearm ownership IF SCOTUS OVERTURNS HELLER..."
Fixed it for Blackman.
In other words, it would be a do-absolutely-nothing bill.
How do you figure that a law written like SB8 (specifically to prevent review regarding Roe and Casey) would somehow fail to thwart Heller?
The point of the way the law was written was to avoid judicial review and SCOTUS precedent. Any right can conceivably be denied by a similarly constructed law.
SB8 does not in fact thwart Casey. I've pointed this out, including in detail why, upthread.
Is that as true as everything else you have said?
I'm done with you calling me a liar, shithead. Haven't you noticed?
The quit lying, for heaven´s sake.
That should be then quit lying. I despise the absence of an edit feature.
You haven't identified a single lie, so stop pretending you have and maybe I'll forget to mention what a dick you are.
Yes, you should quit it. But obviously you're not going to.
Roe and Casey are on the chopping block. There is a chance both precedents are overruled this Term.
As Bob says above - dream on.
And abortion providers understand this risk all too well. ......Under S.B. 8, the providers would be subject to retroactive liability. And those suits could bankrupt Planned Parenthood.
So a simple solution for the federal government is to indemnify Planned Parenthood against all SB8 related costs arising from continuing with abortions in Texas. It's hardly as if they've got a religious objection to spending money.
If Roe and Casey are not at risk, why did SCOTUS grant cert in Dobbs?
Chipping away. They'll probably come up with some justification that shifts the point that restrictions can be implemented from viability to 15 weeks, which is what the Mississippi law says.
Activist judges, but apparently the "good kind". Hypocritical, but predictable.
Ah, the "Defense of DACA" argument: "hat's mine is mine, what's yours is the only thing fungible, Activist!"
Takes only 4 to grant cert. The Stupid Party bloc and already completely backslid Roberts will buy off the most squishy of the others with a pittance.
Do you surmise that the liberals voted to grant cert in Dobbs?
I haven't given a second's thought to who voted to grant cert, but for it not to get cert would make the allegedly anti-Roe bloc look bad, so, no.
There aren't 60 votes in the Senate for that proposition.
I have heard that there are a half dozen or so states that have not repealed their broad pre-Roe statutes criminalizing abortion. The statutes are unenforceable and in desuetude, but there is a literal sense in which they are still in the statute books. Do those statutes have an in terrorem effect similar to that of to S.B. 8? I gather not. If that is right that they do not have such effect, is the reason 1) that while the laws are literally on the books, Roe did more than put them into deep freeze but repealed them so they'd have to be re-enacted; 2) that the Constitution requires (or will be found to require if, perhaps even when, the Court overrules Roe if it does) that actions that were protected by the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court at the time the actions are taken cannot be punished retroactively; 3) that criminal prosecutions (mostly) can only be undertaken by public prosecutors and in practice no prosecutor, even in deep red states, is going to have the appetite to go after people retroactively; (4) there is an outstanding injunction against enforcement (in all of these states though?) that would have to be formally set aside before prosecutions could resume; 5) some other reason; or 6) some combination of these reasons? Knowing which reason or combination of reasons account for the relative lack of in terrorem effect of such statutes might help illuminate what is different (wrong? unconstitutional?) about S.B. 8, which does apparently have such an effect.
There’s a difference between civil and criminal law here. The Ex Post Facto clause eatablishes that you can’t be criminally prosecuted for conduct that was legal at the time you dis it. So if a criminal law is invalidated and the invalidation is reversed, nobody can be prosecuted for conduct done during the time and it was found invalid.
But the ex post facto clause has been held not to apply to civil liability. People can be found liable regroactively for conduct that was legal at the time they did it.
That’s the difference.
Due Process guaranties apply to civil litigation as well as criminal proceedings. Due Process requires fair warning of what conduct is prohibited. SB8 requires an abortion provider to govern his conduct not based on clearly established constitutional law, but instead on a crapshoot as to what the law may be in the future. How does that even arguably comport with Due Process?
It's characteristic of you to baselessly declare your wishes to be facts.
One has all the warning that is required for due process if TX law says the conduct is illegal. The Feds can enjoin enforcement, but that doesn't make the crime into a legal act. There's no valid justification for SCOTUS to prohibit enforcement of laws after admitting that the prior prohibition was wrongly entered.
Not that that will stop them from coming up with some claptrap argument to do so if it lines up with their feels and political considerations.
There is a considerable history of SCOTUS decisions being and not being applied with retroactive effect.
Ignorant of the fair warning doctrine, huh?
A criminal statute that has been declared facially unconstitutional by the highest court in the land provides fair warning of criminal consequences to no one.
Ipse dixit isn't cutting it, pal.
Do you have any authority to dispute what I say?
Wow, you actually said something I agree with.
Forget for a moment all arguments about what the Supreme court should do. They simply are not going to let people be prosecuted/sued for conduct engaged in at a time when they themselves had ruled it constitutionally protected.
It would be a direct affront to their own authority to issue rulings people could rely upon.
Even if they overturn Roe, overturn Casey, (Which they are unlikely to do in any straightforward manner.) they're going to find some excuse to immunize anybody who relied on such rulings.
Gandydancer once again proves he doesn't understand due process, and is instead parroting without understanding Blackman's nonsense about what courts declaring laws unconstitutional actually does.
@ReaderY: Got some cites for those declarations?
@BK: Good questions, asked with unusual precision.
SCOTUS has no power to repeal laws. Indeed, SB8 declares in its preamble that TX's pre-73 laws are still in effect. Not sure why that's even a question since I assume they're still being enforced against post-viability abortions. How much that crime happens I don't know.
In a few more months it ought to be possible to bring non-dismissable-for-undue-burden SB8 suits against someone who aborts (etc.) an arguably viable fetus and, at that point, there may indeed be a legitimate Federal question as to whether the SB8 suit is inconsistent with Casey on the facts of the individual case. But that is true already for criminal prosecution of such cases and the Constitutionality of SB8 ought not be implicated, though some determined kritarch may find a way to declare otherwise.
To the extent that suspension of abortions is not just a political ploy SB8 serves as a reminder of the fact that criminal prosecutions of abortions performed before Casey is overturned can already go back as far as the relevant statute of limitations permits absent an unwarranted statement by SCOTUS to the contrary or caselaw unknown to me.
criminal prosecutions of abortions performed before Casey is overturned can already go back as far as the relevant statute of limitations permits absent an unwarranted statement by SCOTUS to the contrary or caselaw unknown to me.
True, and they only ever do that with criminal justice cases that go in the opposite direction.
The universe of "caselaw unknown to Gandydancer" is well nigh infinite.
Not sure I get why the DOJ and abortion providers are so eager to play chicken with the Supreme Court. Dems will lose the house and senate next year, they can't pack the court.
Just not enough superstitious bigots and half-educated clingers left in America forRepublicans to do much of anything. Our electorate improves — and Republican electoral prospects diminish — every day as our nation sheds its rural, religious, White, backward, bigoted old conservatives, who are replaced by better and younger voters.
Voter suppression, gerrymandering, and our system’s structural amplification of hayseed votes are about all Republicans still have going for them in modern America.
Is it possible this is more important to activists than medical practitioners?
Heller secure? Until the progs pack the court maybe....In the mean time, the courts ignore it with impunity.
Those cases are distinguished because there is no binding precedent protecting the right of a vendor to refuse to serve a same-sex wedding (see the below hypothetical).
It's a combination of the procedural structure and the possibility Roe is reversed. If vendors had existing precedent to protect their right not to provide service, and if that precedent were under serious question, and if a law requiring them to provide service kicked in retroactively if the precedent were reversed, then the vendors would be in the same position as the abortion providers. And both cases, the statutes would equally stink to high heaven.
If Casey were overturned its role in providing fake "Constitutional" impunity to fetus killers is what will be established to have stunk to high heaven.
Statutes that have a chilling effect on the exercise of constitutional rights may violate Due Process guaranties -- a point that Professor Blackman conspicuously neglects to mention.
The in terrorem chill on abortion providers is the purpose and effect of SB8.
the legislature that enacts these fundamentally does not think that they are abridging any rights, they disagree with Roe. Blue states ban guns because they fundamentally don't recognize the 2nd amendment or Heller. And around we go.
Whether Texas accepts Roe is irrelevant. It is the controlling case, which is why SB8 works so hard to avoid it.
Ah, the whole consent of the governed problem. Google passive aggressive.
States don't get to do civil disobedience. That's called nullification and hasn't been much of a thing since we had a big war that resulted in a number of things, including a clarification of the Federal-State relationship.
That wasn't your tune when the marching tune was RESIST TRUMP....
LOL if you think I advocated for state nullification, Jimmy.
Actually, civil disobedience is always an option, provided its practitioners are prepared to accept the consequences. The coat hanger coalition wants its unlawful acts to be consequence free.
I agree that the invalidity of nullification by the states of federal law is long settled.
People, yes. States, no.
Your determined dishonesty and/or obtuseness continues to be unfathomable as to its depths. In fact Blackman addresses your claim explicitly by approvingly quoting intervenors as follows:
An advocate´s saying something doesn´t make it so -- a point that you illustrate in spades time and time again.
You continue to advance arguments...not even that, distractions...that are as dumb as rocks. If you say I did not mention the color of a woman's eyes and I point our that I said they were blue your claim is not rehabilitated by the observation that my saying that does not make it so.
We're not all as dumb as you, so stop trying to make crap like that float.
I have asked you when and where you received your legal training, if any, and whether you have ever tried a lawsuit. You pointedly declined to answer. Why should I regard you as anything other than a dilettante dabbling in the law, with an acute case of confirmation bias?
If you can´t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
"and there is nothing unconstitutional about a statute that threatens to impose retroactive civil liability in response to a Supreme Court ruling."
And I'd rate the odds of the Supreme court agreeing with that as somewhere between nada and negative. Because, as I said above, it would be an affront to their own institutional authority for anybody to ever be held liable for relying on one of their own rulings.
Legal arguments become irrelevant when the Court's own institutional interests are at stake.
"FPC takes no position on whether abortion should be protected by the Constitution but believes that the judicial review of restrictions on established constitutional rights, especially those protected under this Court’s cases, cannot be circumvented in the manner used by Texas."
They're neutral on whether there's a right to abortion, all they know is it's an "established constitutional right[]."
Why not argue for protecting the rights *actually in the Constitution,* protecting them so unequivocally that any attack on those rights, by whatever route, would be shot down in flames?
An established constitutional right on which they take no position - sure.
That's correct. Competent lawyers understand that they take the law as it is, not the law as they wish it to be.
Because nothing in the effect of SB8 turns on whether Cal Cetin thinks that abortion is "actually in the Constitution" or not.
I do not believe that the bullies who try to cancel people that tell mild jokes are somehow now scared that something bad is going to happen to them if they stand up for what they think is a constitutional right.