A Grand Jury Rejects Trump's Attempt To Prosecute 6 Legislators for Saying Something He Did Not Like
The president was offended by a video reminding military personnel of their duty to disobey unlawful orders.
Three months ago, six Democratic members of Congress posted a video reminding U.S. military personnel of their well-established duty to "refuse illegal orders." The video, which urged compliance with the law and the Constitution rather than the whims of the man who is currently running the executive branch, irked President Donald Trump, who said the six legislators "should be ARRESTED AND PUT ON TRIAL." On Tuesday, a grand jury in Washington, D.C., disagreed, rejecting a proposed indictment charging the two senators and four representatives with a federal felony.
Such roadblocks are highly unusual. Grand juries, which hear only the government's side of a case, almost always approve charges recommended by federal prosecutors. But the attempt to prosecute sitting members of Congress for constitutionally protected speech that offended the president was also highly unusual, as the grand jurors apparently recognized.
The video at the center of the attempted indictment features Sen. Elissa Slotkin (D–Mich.), a former CIA officer; Sen. Mark Kelly (D–Ariz.), a former astronaut and U.S. Navy aviator; Rep. Chris Deluzio (D–Pa.), also a former naval officer; Rep. Maggie Goodlander (D–N.H.), a former intelligence officer in the U.S. Navy Reserve; Rep. Chrissy Houlahan (D–Pa.), a former Air Force officer; and Rep. Jason Crow (D–Colo.), a former Army Ranger. They mention those backgrounds while delivering a simple message to "members of the military" and "the intelligence community" who "take risks each day to keep Americans safe": "Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders."
That message is indisputably accurate as a matter of law. In fact, according to the Judge Advocate General's Operational Law Handbook, "soldiers have a duty to disobey" orders that are "manifestly illegal." Examples include intentional targeting of civilians, torture of prisoners, looting of property, and suppression of constitutionally protected protests.
Trump nevertheless insisted that Slotkin et al. had committed a crime by reiterating that principle. But what crime?
Trump called the legislators "TRAITORS," a legally untenable description. An American is guilty of treason when he "levies war" against the United States or "adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere."
Trump also said Slotkin et al. had engaged in "SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR." Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth echoed that claim, calling the legislators the "Seditious Six." But that label likewise was clearly inapplicable. Under federal law, a seditious conspiracy is a plot involving the use of force against the authority of the U.S. government.
Since nothing these members of Congress did came close to meeting the elements of those crimes, the Justice Department had to find another option if it was determined to do Trump's bidding, which it clearly was. Jeanine Pirro, the Trump-appointed U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, reportedly settled on 18 USC 2387, which applies to someone who "advises, counsels, urges, or in any manner causes or attempts to cause insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty by any member of the military or naval forces of the United States."
That crime is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison. But it requires an "intent to interfere with, impair, or influence the loyalty, morale, or discipline of the military or naval forces of the United States." And the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) defines insubordination as willfully disobeying "a lawful order," while the video explicitly addressed "illegal orders."
Any attempt to criminalize the speech at issue here would be clearly contrary to the Supreme Court's First Amendment precedents. The Court's 1969 decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio held that even explicit advocacy of illegal conduct is constitutionally protected unless it is both "directed" at inciting "imminent lawless action" and "likely" to do so. Far from trying to incite "imminent lawless action," the legislators Trump wants to prosecute urged service members to "stand up for our laws" and "our Constitution," which they accurately said could require disobeying unlawful orders.
In addition to the First Amendment, Slotkin et al. may be protected by the Constitution's Speech or Debate Clause, which says senators and representatives "shall not be questioned in any other place" in connection with "any speech or debate in either house" of Congress. The Supreme Court has construed that clause as broadly protecting the independence of the legislative branch by shielding members of Congress from civil or criminal proceedings based on conduct that falls within the "legitimate legislative sphere."
The "fundamental purpose" of the Speech or Debate Clause, the Court said in the 1972 case Gravel v. United States, is "freeing the legislator from executive and judicial oversight that realistically threatens to control his conduct as a legislator." The clause extends beyond "literal speech or debate," the Court said three years later in Eastland v. U.S. Servicemen's Fund, to include any "legitimate legislative activity."
In separate litigation over Kelly's threatened punishment under the UCMJ for the video and other public comments, his lawyers argue that statements about the duty to disobey unlawful orders fall within the congressional power to regulate the armed forces. The government's response rejects that interpretation, saying "a legislator's public statements in interviews and on social media are not legislative acts protected by the Speech or Debate Clause."
One need not resolve that issue to recognize that prosecuting Kelly and the other five legislators would flunk the Brandenburg test or that their conduct does not constitute an offense under Section 2387. And even without considering those legal points, it is obvious what is happening here: Trump wants to jail people for saying something he did not like. Even for grand jurors who heard nothing but Pirro's one-sided presentation of the case, that reality must have been crystal clear.
"President Trump continues to weaponize our justice system against his perceived enemies," Slotkin said on Tuesday. "It's the kind of thing you see in a foreign country, not in the United States we know and love. No matter what President Trump and Pirro continue to do with this case, tonight we can score one for the Constitution, our freedom of speech, and the rule of law."
Kelly called the attempted prosecution "an outrageous abuse of power by Donald Trump and his lackeys." The Justice Department "tried to have me charged with a crime," he noted, "because of something I said that they didn't like. That's not the way things work in America. Donald Trump wants every American to be too scared to speak out against him. The most patriotic thing any of us can do is not back down."
It is obvious from Trump's disregard for freedom of speech and his authoritarian habit of lobbing "treason" accusations at his political opponents that he does not care about civil liberties or the rule of law. He nevertheless might want to think twice about picking legal fights that he cannot win, especially when they allow his targets to credibly portray themselves as victims of a petty, thin-skinned, power-mad tyrant.
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Please to post comments
Ah, a long article from a useless sack of shit.
Will pass on reading it.
As usual.
You should have passed on commenting on it.
Didnt sullum cry about and defend an impeachment over trump asking Ukraine to look into corruption?
The only person dumber than Sullum is the lesser Koch brother.
The short Koch? He’s proving to be a limp Koch so far.
>>The president was offended
#metoo they're lucky the grand jury wasn't in Texas
You are offended by telling the military not to follow illegal orders ?
I really don't get this crowd sometimes.
Which illegal order you commie cunt?
Or were you seditious assholes just hoping some foolish kid would join your anti-American crusade and act on his baseless propaganda?
Reminder:
“I do think there have to be consequences for abject war crimes. If you’re doing something that is just completely unlawful and ruthless, then there is a consequence for that,” Hegseth said. “That’s why the military said it won’t follow unlawful orders from their commander in chief. There’s a standard, there’s an ethos. There’s a belief that we are above what so many things that our enemies or others would do.”
https://archive.is/QZB6L#selection-3263.13-3263.427
Again, name the illegal orders, dipshit, instead of misdirecting with this bluster.
Which illegal orders was Hegseth referring to?
See how dishonest he is folks? I don't call him Lying Jeffy for nothing.
When Mark Kelly was asked by Rachel Maddow, he could not answer.
Sedition is doing anything the President doesn't like. Like making a 1A-protected video. Clearly the Constitution has TDS for allowing such a thing.
Sarc, we get you don't own a dictionary, but stop projecting your own ignorance buddy.
All illegal orders are ILLEGAL. Do you not know the difference between legal and illegal?
Where did they say Trump had issued any illegal orders? Certainly not in the video.
How would you feel if you didn't eat dinner?
"This crowd" is easy to understand if you read this:
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Since Democrats are the "out-group", they have bad motives and must be punished, even though Hegseth himself said the same thing back in 2016 as these Democrats said. He is in the "in-group" so he gets a pass.
There is no principle at play here other than what Wilhoit stated above. The in-group can do whatever they want, and the out-group must shut up and obey. That's it.
You’re just unhappy your name isn’t in the Epstein files.
Insane Troll Logic is an apt username for you.
Just look at Lying Jeffy go!
Considering the consistency of you and Jeff being wrong on the law time and time again... no. Because you treat the word as if it is malleable and political and not from legal construction.
L_B, Trumpists generally have no more respect for the Constitution and the rule of law than does their Leader.
More retarded leftist projection lol. Is this all you retards have?
Jesse, here is a spin that you may like better: "President Trump is a role model for his supporters in how to follow the Constitution and the law."
>>I really don't get this crowd sometimes.
I'm on the good guys side of the law at all times idk about you
Because there are few libertarians, or Americans here, mostly just TrumpDickSuckers
That's the real answer.
By itself, not a problem.
But at the same time telling them that completely legal orders are not legal is a different situation.
This is at best deliberately sowing confusion on a situation that's actually pretty straightforward.
At worst, it's shouting about troublesome priests.
The people being no-billed by the grand jury did not say that any of Trump's orders were not legal. You've been lied to.
JS;dr
JS;dr. And to think we get this caterwauling instead of more Bad Bunny coverage which would be far more enlightening. Reason has lost it's way.
"For the first time since the 1960s, the Federal workforce has shrunk to below 2.7 million employees. "
Least libertarian president apparently
While I welcome this development, I question why he has not reduced the Federal workforce in more Federal departments and agencies; and wonder why this has not been reflected in a decrease in Federal deficit spending.
Trump wants a humongous increase in defense spending.
Cite, charliewalz?
Asks this after he literally complained trump had to ask congress and couldn't fire people. Celebrating every lower court judge. Amazing.
Are you aware of congress? Or did mentions of a holocaust cause you to forget?
Probably because a judge would put an injunction on it.
Total failure as a dictator
One fact = libertarian.
Although I welcome the Grand Jury's decision in this case, Slotkin should look in the mirror and recognize that Trump's continuing weaponization of the US justice system was reflected from the continuing weaponization of the US justice system by her own political party's abuse in charging Trump with fabricated crimes. Apparently "tit-for-tat" is not a recognized principle in her legal lexicon.
And just how is Trump weaponizing the justice system? Provide examples.
This post has a clear example.
As if you would believe any example. Waste of American space.
Bullshit.
Trump really did falsify documents 34 times. That is a crime in New York.
Trump did steal classified documents. That is a crime, too.
Trump did encourage a mob to engage in violence to overturn an election. Also a crime.
MAGA believes that criminal behavior by Trump and his supporters should have no consequences. See Ross Ulbricht and Juan Orlando Hernandez.
Bullshit. He asked banks for loans. They did their due diligence. They loaned the money and were paid back, in full, with interest.
Documents he had a right to as a past President. Now do Biden’s documents.
Again, bullshit. He told them to go home and be calm. That’s on record, charliewalz.
"Documents he had a right to as a past President." Completely false and long debunked. Stealing classified materials is a long established crime. Biden gave them back when asked, Trump refused. That is the difference.
It's time for your helicopter ride, commie scum.
GOPI, should we take your stated desire to murder your political opponents as characteristic of Trump supporters?
Are you commie scum too?
GOPI, it would be more polite for you to answer my question before asking one of me.
Nevertheless, I am a libertarian, not a communist, and I would be surprised were MollyGodiva a communist.
I reject the premise of your question. And yes, Tony is commie scum.
GOPI, what premise do you reject? You wrote, "It's time for your helicopter ride, commie scum."
"Helicopter ride" in this context means extrajudicial killing, i.e., murder, of political opponents. See the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_flights
Not political opponents. Communists.
GOPI, this is interesting. You write, "Not political opponents. Communists."
Are communists not your political opponents?
Are you one of those autistic libertarians?
GOPI, you're cooking yourself in the replies. Best to stop before you turn the pot up too high.
f7b155e, do you like squares or rectangles more?
GOPI, whether I am autistic is irrelevant, but I am not.
I asked whether we should take your stated desire to murder your political opponents as characteristic of Trump supporters.
You responded, "I reject the premise of your question." You later clarified, "Not political opponents. Communists."
Should we understand this to mean that communists are a subset of your political opponents? If so, I'll modify my question: Should we take your stated desire to murder communists as characteristic of Trump supporters?
A follow-up question is what is your definition of "communist"? You appear promiscuous in your application of this term. Your definition is of interest because you want to murder such people.
Meanwhile your allies keep actually trying and accomplishing murder of enemies. Another one arrested just yesterday.
What allies?
JesseAZ, do you, like GOPI, want to murder your political opponents?
You lie like commie scum.
10000%
This remains retardedly false.
It is amazing how counterfactual your beliefs are. Like absolutely nothing factual here. Virtually nothing factual ever in your history of limp-dicked posting.
And you support Ulbricht NOT getting a pardon? Well, Reason will be joining you there before much longer.
“And you support Ulbricht NOT getting a pardon?”
He’s an evil piece of shit.
I'm all for drugs being legal and shit, but Ulbricht put out hits so fuck him
Lie.
Look at sarc fall for government narratives. Lol.
Trump really did falsify documents 34 times. That is a crime in New York.
A misdemeanor for which the statute of limitations expired.
Trump did post a racist video and his followers LOVE it. He is them, They are he.
Executing laws as written and holding dems accountable is weaponization.
You believe in an expansionist and strict application of the law against Trump's enemies, but pardons and lenience for Trump and his criminal buddies. In other words you're a partisan faggot.
Wow. What a retarded set of projection sarc. I cite law and judicial precedent with all my claims. Normal execution of law (aside from not holding democrats accountable).
Meanwhile you've accepted and cheered every novel legal construction from trump to j6 to Alex Jones.
Again. Youre projecting retard.
Considering it was a DC Grand Jury, this outcome is not at all surprising.
Also, not one of those fucks has a problem with illegal orders, they have a problem with Trump orders.
Bingo. If Trump’s DOJ brought an indictment before a DC grand jury of a man with blood on his hands, splattered on his chest while holding the heart of a man he’s killed, and seen on camera and by a cop doing so, they’d let him off; because Orange Man Bad.
Wait. The same d.c. grand juries who helped convict over 1000 J6ers on a false legal interpretation scotus had to strike down?
You can't use your fantasy as evidence.
"You can't use your fantasy as evidence." -- MollyGodiva
What other than fantasy can ITL provide to support ITL's feelings? ITL is showing loyalty to the Trumpist's Leader by emulating said Leader.
More projection. You guys are getting pathetic. Reddit is more your speed buddy.
Jesse, could you explain what you mean by projection in this case? ITL tried to support his position with a fantasy. I pointed out that this behavior is similar to Pres. Trump's propensity to issue lies to support his current whims. How are my statements projection?
Obviously snark escapes the both of you retards.
They do it daily, but funny. If J6 was a Dem president They'd be crying their assess off like it was a tan suit.
"tan suit."
Bringing back a leftist lie from the past.
Why, because they are Democrats?
Why? Because you are a fat blustering leftist retard with little to offer here but bullshit and obfuscation.
Not exclusively because of them being Dems.
Biden, not once, not twice, but at least three separate times mentioned F16’s in the context of conversations surrounding gun control and people exercising their natural right to keep and bear arms. Not one of them felt the need to make a video like this.
Lying Jeffy doesn’t care about 2A.
Biden, not once, not twice, but at least three separate times mentioned F16’s in the context of conversations surrounding gun control and people exercising their natural right to keep and bear arms.
Interesting. Where did you get your information for this claim, in thinking that it was in any way analogous to what Trump said or did?
Cause I can’t leave shit alone (it’s a flaw, I know): I can see how your question may have been aimed more at my assertion about the Grand Jury and less about the 6 and their care of illegal orders. If that was the case I’ll offer a “my bad”.
However, my response and comparison was about potential illegal orders, not Trump’s ham handed response to these assholes and their video (I can see how the first line could be taken as a response to them not being indicted by the grand jury instead of why they wouldn’t care about illegal orders.)
This is sad.
The reason I ask, is because just commenting that Biden "mentioned" F-16's in connection with gun rights is being very dishonest.
Here is one of the times that Biden "mentioned" F-16's:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-mocks-second-amendment-supporters-says-need-f-16-take-government
So yes he "mentioned" an F-16 but he didn't say anything about the government using F-16's on citizens. So there was no reason to get upset about any sort of 'illegal order' to use military aircraft against citizens because he didn't say that or even imply it. In fact it was the other way around, he was mocking citizens for thinking they could take on the government without using F-16's.
So, I think you got some talking point from some right-wing media source which tried to construct some false equivalency between what Biden did and what Trump did, in order to justify and excuse Trump's genuinely worse behavior on this score. Don't be misled like this.
See how dishonest he is?
I was going to ask if you were serious, but I see you were.
I’m going to disengage, but thanks for being a smug condescending collectivist, yet again.
Hey Lying Jeffy, care to comment on charliehall’s comment about Ulbricht?
Pirro couldn't get an indictment for a ham sandwich.
Trump values loyalty, not competence.
Cite?
RFK Jr.
hahaha
> Trump wants to jail people for saying something he did not like.
Yup. And maggots who support prosecuting these people for their speech are about as far from libertarians as one could be.
Says the guy who still defends Alex Jones, Mackey, conspiracy charges against conservative lawyers... lol.
God damn youre pathetic sarc. You have zero principles.
The video was more than a reminder.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Fk9Gh3qwW4I
It was prefaced with this, "This administration is pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens"
This was a political attack massage told directly to American troops.
Later on, when questioned by Rachel Maddow, Mark Kelly could not specify any illegal order in question, let alone one that "pitt[ed] our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens".
Even if what you say were true, how exactly is 1A protected speech grounds for prosecution?
The 1A doesn’t protect you against charges of sedition, treason, fraud, etc…
He thinks immigration fraud is also a 1a protected crime. Sarc is very dumb.
And the video is none of those.
Even if? The video is there you lying leftist retard. God damn sarc.
Here is that chat I had with Poe about this.
https://poe.com/s/A29DFEib28K7OAEJQFOv
Letting military know their duty? Sure, but it could be spun the other way as encouraging senior military officers to override civilian control of the military. I'll bet some conservatives went so far as thinking the video was encouraging a military coup against Trump
The message was prefaced with this."This administration is pitting our uniformed military and intelligence community professionals against American citizens"
No where in that quote do they claim the President gave any illegal orders.
They didn't claim it was a day that ended in Y either.
"a grand jury in Washington, D.C., disagreed"
That's all that needed to be said.
That 90% [D] Bluest State in the Nation?
What a surprise. /s
Next Up... How Trump was indicted over anything and everything.