Trump Tries To Carve Out a First Amendment Exception for 'Fake News'
The president's portrayal of journalism he does not like as consumer fraud is legally frivolous and blatantly unconstitutional.

"Fake News is an UNPARDONABLE SIN!" President Donald Trump declares in a Truth Social rant inspired by the cancellation of Joy Reid's MSNBC show. "This whole corrupt operation is nothing more than an illegal arm of the Democrat Party. They should be forced to pay vast sums of money for the damage they've done to our Country."
Trump's claim that journalism he does not like is "illegal" and constitutes a tort justifying massive civil damages should be familiar by now. He has made such claims not only in social media posts but also in actual lawsuits against news organizations. As the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) explains in a motion filed last Friday, these chilling attempts to convert Trump's complaints about press coverage into causes of action are legally baseless and blatantly unconstitutional.
Last October, Trump sued CBS in Texas, claiming that its editing of a 60 Minutes interview with Kamala Harris constituted consumer fraud that had caused him "at least" $10 billion in damages. In December, he filed a similar lawsuit against The Des Moines Register and pollster Ann Selzer in Iowa, claiming a voter survey that erroneously predicted a Harris victory in that state likewise amounted to consumer fraud.
FIRE, which represents Selzer in the latter case, notes that the Supreme Court has recognized several narrowly defined exceptions to the First Amendment, including "obscenity, child pornography, defamation, fraud, incitement, fighting words, and speech integral to criminal activity." Trump is trying to carve out an additional exception for "fake news," which would have a paralyzing impact on journalists, since they would be exposed to daunting legal expenses and potentially ruinous civil liability whenever their reporting was arguably misleading or inaccurate.
"In the United States," FIRE Chief Counsel Robert Corn-Revere notes in a motion to dismiss Trump's claims against Selzer, "there is no such thing as a claim for 'fraudulent news.' No court in any jurisdiction has ever held such a cause of action might be valid, and few plaintiffs have ever attempted to bring such outlandish claims." While the "fake news" label "may play well for some on the campaign trail," Corn-Revere writes, it "has no place in America's constitutional jurisprudence." Trump's lawsuit, he says, is "a transparent attempt to punish news coverage and analysis of a political campaign, speech that not only is presumptively protected but 'occupies the highest rung of the hierarchy of First Amendment values.'"
The object of Trump's ire is a poll that Selzer conducted for the Register shortly before the 2024 presidential election. Unlike other polls and Selzer's previous surveys, all of which found that Trump was ahead in Iowa, this one gave Harris a three-point lead. That poll, which the Register published on the Saturday before the election, turned out to be off by more than a little: Trump won Iowa by a 13-point margin.
"It's called suppression," Trump said at a rally in Pennsylvania the day after the Register reported Selzer's results. "And it actually should be illegal."
In fact, according to Trump, it was illegal. In a complaint he filed in the Iowa District Court for Polk County on December 16, Trump averred that Selzer's poll violated that state's Consumer Fraud Act, which prohibits deceptive practices "in connection with the advertisement, sale, or lease of consumer merchandise." At the defendants' request, the case was transferred to the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Iowa. In an amended complaint on January 31, Trump added common law claims of fraudulent and negligent misrepresentation.
That complaint was joined by two additional plaintiffs: Rep. Mariannette Miller-Meeks (R–Iowa) and former state Sen. Bradley Zaun (R–Urbandale). Miller-Meeks' beef was similar to Trump's: Although Selzer's poll gave Miller-Meeks' opponent a 16-point lead, she ultimately won reelection by two-tenths of a point. Zaun's grievance was more mysterious, since Selzer had not polled his race, which he lost by four points. The complaint nevertheless claims the poll "impacted" his campaign. It also notes that he "read the election coverage at issue in this action," which it says deceived him as a voter and Trump campaign contributor.
None of these plaintiffs suffered any cognizable damages under the Iowa Consumer Fraud Act (ICFA). "Plaintiffs have no claim under the ICFA against Selzer because they do not allege that they purchased or leased anything from Selzer," Corn-Revere writes. "The ICFA is a consumer fraud statute designed to protect Iowa consumers deceived into buying or leasing a product. It provides a cause of action for victims of 'deception' and 'fraud' 'in connection with the advertisement, sale, or lease of consumer merchandise.' And it allows consumers to recover damages if they suffer an 'ascertainable loss of money or property as the result' of that deception or fraud. Plaintiffs allege no 'fraud' or 'deception' to induce them into a transaction with Selzer, nor do they allege any 'ascertainable loss of money or property.'"
Trump et al.'s common law claims are invalid for similar reasons. "Fraudulent misrepresentation" refers to "a situation where a defendant lies to induce a plaintiff into a transaction to the plaintiff's detriment," Corn-Revere notes. Yet "Selzer made no actionable representation 'to the Plaintiffs,'" and Trump et al. "have not alleged the Iowa Poll was 'material' to an inducement directed to Plaintiffs by Selzer." They "similarly do not allege Selzer intended to induce them into a transaction."
A claim of "negligent misrepresentation" likewise requires that the plaintiff suffered damages because, in completing a transaction, he "reasonably relied" on information that the defendant "knew or reasonably should have known" was false. It also requires that "the defendant intended to supply information to the plaintiff or knew that the recipient intended to supply it to the plaintiff." Even if we assume Selzer knew or should have known her poll results were off, none of the other criteria is met.
As with the ICFA claim, Trump et al. could not have relied on false information in completing a transaction with Selzer because there was no transaction. And while the plaintiffs argue that they "justifiably relied" on the poll results, they also describe it as an "outlier" that defied "common sense, electoral history, [and] all other public polls." They claim Selzer had a history of underestimating Republican support, and they say "any responsible pollster or journalist with experience in Iowa politics would recognize" the poll's "clear inaccuracy." Trump et al. are "so desperate to spike the football regarding Selzer's polling inaccuracies," Corn-Revere says, that they "aggressively concede the element of reliance."
In any case, Selzer did not intend to "supply the information" to Trump et al., and she had no special "duty of care" to them. "If a newspaper prints incorrect information, if a scientist publishes careless statements in a treatise, or if an oil company prints an inaccurate road map, they cannot be 'liable' to those of the general public who read their works absent some special relationship between [the] writer and reader," the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit observed in a 1971 decision that Corn-Revere quotes. While "accuracy in news reporting is certainly a desideratum," a federal judge in New Jersey noted seven years later, "imposing a high duty of care on those in the business of news dissemination and making that duty run to a wide range of readers or TV viewers would have a chilling effect which is unacceptable under our Constitution."
Trump et al. also "fail to allege recoverable damages," the FIRE motion says. As candidates, Trump and Miller-Meeks claim, they had to "expend extensive time and resources," including "direct federal campaign expenditures," to "counteract the harms" caused by Selzer's poll. "But they filed this lawsuit in their personal capacities, and the Supreme Court has made clear that a campaign is 'a legal entity distinct from the candidate,'" Corn-Revere writes. "Mr. Trump and Ms. Miller-Meeks allege no cognizable harm to them as individuals from the Iowa Poll, so they have not [pled] the element of damages."
Zaun's damage claims "are even more implausible (if that is possible)," the motion says. "Mr. Zaun does not explain what those damages are, nor does he explain how he could have suffered financial damage from a poll that did not mention him or poll his race. Even if he had offered some explanation, there's no causation for damages consisting of losing elections."
In short, Trump et al. "try to shoehorn their claims" into an existing category of constitutionally unprotected speech by "calling the Iowa Poll 'fake' and asserting actionable 'fraud' occurred," Corn-Revere writes. He quotes "the famous words of Inigo Montoya" in The Princess Bride: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." The plaintiffs' "allegations about polls and news stories they dislike," Corn-Revere says, "have nothing to do with fraud."
Trump et al. "also sprinkle the complaint with loose talk of 'election interference,'" the motion notes. They "wield the terms 'election interference' and 'fraud' like an alchemist's incantation, hoping to transform their political dross into legal gold. But no amount of vacuous repetition can convert their expansive concept of 'fake news' to the very limited and specific legal concept of fraud. The Supreme Court has made clear that slapping the 'fraud' label on a claim cannot satisfy the specific showing required or extinguish the First Amendment."
Given the flagrant frivolousness of these claims, you might wonder, why is Trump pressing them? As he explains it, he is determined to "straighten out the press" one way or another. "I shouldn't really be the one to do it," he told reporters in December. "It should have been the Justice Department or somebody else. But I have to do it [because] our press is very corrupt."
As Trump sees it, the U.S. Department of Justice should be policing the press to make sure it is telling the truth. While any such program would be clearly unconstitutional, Trump thinks he can achieve similar results by filing his own lawsuits.
He's not wrong. Trump's consumer fraud complaint against CBS, which the network accurately described as "completely without merit," is at least as ridiculous as his consumer fraud complaint against Selzer and the Register. Maybe more ridiculous, since it does not involve any actual journalistic failure: The gravamen of Trump's grievance is that 60 Minutes edited its interview with Harris to make her response to a question about Israel seem slightly more cogent. Yet Paramount, which owns CBS, reportedly is keen to appease Trump by settling that laughable lawsuit because the company worries that the phony controversy over the interview could jeopardize its pending merger with Skydance Media.
When you are president of the United States, it turns out, you can intimidate major news outlets simply by suing them, no matter how absurd your legal arguments are. Trump was always rich enough to bankroll lawsuits that imposed costs on people whose speech offended him even when they had not said anything that remotely resembled a tort. Now that his wealth is complemented by the vast powers of the executive branch, he has even less reason to worry that his litigation makes no sense.
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You didn't complain when Biden did it, so that makes it ok.
So you are admitting biden did it?
Trump knows that lying is coercion and needs to be criminalized like perjury and fraud already are.
But he knows that would place him and his corrupt peers directly in the crosshairs. So he cherry picks “fake news”. Thats just smoke and mirrors to give him an edge.
He wants to keep lying because they’re greedy and willing to disregard ethical boundaries, the difference between right and wrong.
Mainly because they are confident that they can get away with it.
If all we did was protest, pester our elected officials and vote, it wouldn’t be enough to effect meaningful change.
We need to change the environment they feel confident in. We need to make our society toxic for the corrupt while still welcoming to the good.
We need to make some laws, using what we have, intelligence, ingenuity and determination to implement a plan that achieves it.
1. Make recording everything we witness a human right.
2. Support the constitution and free speech by defeating all censorship
3. Codify in law how truth is determined with correctly applied logic and science.
4. Strike down any laws that aren’t supported by truth and the constitution.
5. Criminalize lying and ensure that those in power don’t lie.
We outnumber them.
Poor sarc.
If you did not complain when Biden did it, then it is because it is now your ix being gored, which, while understandable does not garner much sympathy, since it is not a principle being violated, it just self-interest and you have not learned anything.
Trump could start a Ministry of Truth and you guys would defend it saying "You didn't complain when Biden did it! That makes it ok!"
There's literally nothing he could do that you won't defend.
No, dingbat, we’re pointing out that Biden doing it was fine by you, but Trump doing likewise, or not even going as far as Biden isn’t ok with you. You’re a massive hypocrite, Sarc.
YOU had no problem with it.
YOU supported it.
WE can prove it as your incessant bitching about everything Jacob thinks Trump is doing demonstrates you have no problem bitching about everything.
Not supporting Trump doesn't equal supporting Democrats. I'm not on a team, no matter what your narrative says.
I'm not on a team,
If that were true you would have no problem holding both teams to the same standard. But you do not.
I do you lying sack of shit. Have I ever defend Biden or his policies? Nope. Have I ever attacked someone for supporting Biden? Nope. Have I criticized his policies like, I dunno, everything from keeping Trump's tariffs to intentionally dragging out the war in Ukraine? Yup. Thing is, that happened on articles critical of Biden. The ones you ignored because you didn't want to ruin your narrative that says Reason and other Trump critics were never critical of Biden. Whenever that happens you stick your fingers in your ears and shout "La la la la I can't hear you la la la you never said that la la la la laaaaaaa"
You never complained about it. You have found no problems doing about Trump. Your silence is approval.
Ok Jesse. I won't argue with the voices in your head. Whatever you say.
SPB, you know it is true.
Fallacy Ignorantiam - The fallacy of ignorantiam, also known as the appeal to ignorance, is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone assumes a claim is true because there is no evidence against it.
E.g. - You never said you were against it, so you must be for it !
I don't think you understand. If you aren't on Team Trump then you're a hardcore leftist. That's it. Those are the only choices in the minds of these partisan fools. So if you criticize Trump then you're a hardcore leftist. Anything you say that contradicts you being a hardcore leftist is a lie. One time I was dumb enough to give in and gave links to comments of mine that were critical of Biden. Know what the response was? "You were lying! You believe what I say you believe!" Just look below. If you've criticized Trump and you say anything that doesn't equal being a hardcore leftist, then you're a liar.
Liberty, did somebody con you into thinking you're intelligent?
I do
More lying.
The ones you ignored because you didn't want to ruin your narrative that says Reason and other Trump critics were never critical of Biden
More lying. I'm so old I remember when you objected to people applying generic assertions to specific people. But then that standard was for other people and doesn't apply to you or the other leftists.
You continue to celebrate the 1.5B judgements against Alex Jones.
Fucking hypocrite lol.
YOU didn't complain when Biden did it, Sarckles.
Poor Sullum. Can't wait to see all your tears when CBS settles with Trump.
"The president's portrayal of journalism he does not like as consumer fraud is legally frivolous and blatantly unconstitutional."
That's a coincidence, Jake. Aren't "Legally Frivolous" and "Blatantly Unconstitutional" you and Boehm's handles on BlueSky?
Sullum doesn't try to act like the adult he isn't but continues to *BE* a steaming pile of TDS-addled shit.
At one point you admit fraud is an exception to the First Amendment. You refuse to address his two claims:
* Ginning up a fake poll is fraud, not opinion. That is Trump's allegation.
* Slicing and dicing an interview to make something look different is fraud. Do you remember when 60 Minutes (I think) fakes pickup explosions? That was fraud. No free speech right. Do you remember the gun rights interview which was edited to look different from reality? It was fraud, but the court let the editor (Katie Couric?) skate because guns are icky. That's what Trump is claiming with the Kamala interview. Presumably a jury will decide.
Trump's his own best enemy. We're told over and over to let the courts decide. Now you say don't leave it to the courts, because Trump is icky. Bud, if you want to argue that, go ahead, but be honest about it. Don't pretend that a lawsuit for fraud should be thrown out for free speech ground only because Trump filed it.
The complaint here isn't so much that it's Trump, but that the president is using force of government against news outlets that say things he doesn't like.
But as we all know, what Trump does is ok because the people who complain didn't say anything when Biden did it.
But of course he isn't using the force of government, he's using his rights as a citizen to sue a defendant with deep pockets and his complaint is not that they engaged in fraud but that they caused him considerable financial loss by engaging in fraud.
Courts aren't force of government, and the president has no influence. Got it.
What force does the EXECUTIVE branch have over the JUDICIAL branch, Jeffy?
The executive appoints judges, Jesse.
And then the influence stops, since appointments are for life and can only be terminated by Congressional impeachment and conviction. You were saying?
I thought The United States Constitution provides that the president "shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the Supreme Court, and …
When you have haters and squishes like Murkowski and Collins 'advising and consenting' that sure doesn't look like appointment by fiat or the ability to just appoint who he wants (unless, of course its a totally doctrinaire progressive like "I'm not a biologist" - then you'd get a few Rs and all the Ds to enthusiastically assent) .
You refuse to address his two claims
Sullum directly addresses these claims in the fifth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth, and sixteenth paragraphs.
Perhaps you read too quickly, or got too mad after the first line to finish reading it.
Let's test this Mike.
"In the United States," FIRE Chief Counsel Robert Corn-Revere notes in a motion to dismiss Trump's claims against Selzer, "there is no such thing as a claim for 'fraudulent news.' No court in any jurisdiction has ever held such a cause of action might be valid, and few plaintiffs have ever attempted to bring such outlandish claims." While the "fake news" label "may play well for some on the campaign trail," Corn-Revere writes, it "has no place in America's constitutional jurisprudence." Trump's lawsuit, he says, is "a transparent attempt to punish news coverage and analysis of a political campaign, speech that not only is presumptively protected but 'occupies the highest rung of the hierarchy of First Amendment values.'"
Now this all seems like definition games. Because a lot news fraud can be considered defamatory. See Alex Jones. 1.5B. See exploding cars.
Both were news segments the your team decided were really defamation despite being opinions in Alex Jones case. Yet you agreed with this conversion.
It is a slimy shit weasel type of hypocritical behavior as they didn't even make the parents show real harm for Alex Jones.
The type of shit weasel deconstruction you're famous for.
Using the same shit weasel logic, calling Trump more unpopular than he is is defamatory. Same level as calling someone a crisis actor.
Then we can talk about consumer fraud, which is actually what is leading the suits against the polling. There are secondary suits from customers of the newspaper suing under consumer fraud grounds. Jacob seems to not even know this.
You'll also notice below fraud is already a carve out. So because you and Jacob think there isn't intentional behaviors from these papers to influence elections, you refuse to call it fraud while others disagree.
I only have energy to point out you're a liar once a month or so. Basically everything you said is a misrepresentation, starting with this:
Yet you agreed with this conversion.
False, and your "proof" will be another lie falsely attributing words to people who didn't use them. That's a deep, obsessive delusion of yours.
I only have energy to point out you're a liar once a month or so.
I can relate.
Jesse didn't lie, but you and White Mike are. That's why Mike won't rebut, because he can't... And neither can you.
notes that the Supreme Court has recognized several narrowly defined exceptions to the First Amendment, including "obscenity, child pornography, defamation, fraud, incitement, fighting words, and speech integral to criminal activity." Trump is trying to carve out an additional exception for "fake news,"
Less of a carve out, more of a re-branding.
Jacob Sullum is a senior *TDS-addled slimy shit pile* at Reason.
Fixed.
You know, "TDS" also applies to Trump criticism. Trumpsters seem to loose their minds when anyone suggests pardoning people who actively tried to overthrow congress is not a Good Thing, Elon-the second largest bullshitter in our memories-shouldn't be running the government, people and agencies shouldn't be summarily dismissed without any plan or agenda, using the FBI as a political weapon is the action of a wanna-be dictator and must be stopped, and more.
But it's the critics all suffer from TDS. Yep, that's the problem!
"nyone suggests pardoning people who actively tried to overthrow congress is not a Good Thing"
Punishing people for fictions, even if you REALLY believe then, is bad.
"...Trumpsters seem to loose their minds when anyone suggests pardoning people who actively tried to overthrow congress is not a Good Thing,..."
TDS-addled steaming piles of shit claim to believe protesters were trying to 'overthrow congress'.
Exactly how were they to accomplish that, TDS-addled steaming pile of shit?
Nobody tried to overthrow Congress you demented retard.
Thank you all for demonstrating my point. This is the vitriol spewed by the True Believers when the current Dementia-In-Chief is criticized. No counter arguments, no justification, just insults and name calling. Maybe the reflex better called "Reverse TDS"?
No, thank *you* for posting lies and TDS-addled dementing ravings. Now you can crawl back under your rock and make the world a better place: Fuck off and die.
I call idiots like Sevo "Trump's Deranged Supporters".
You should be used to people calling you a moron.
Let's be clear, "fake news" to a MAGA has nothing to do with the factual accuracy of the news, they apply this label to news they don't like.
If Trump gets his way on this, Fox News another other MAGA outlets will be in big trouble.
The plan is for Vance to continue Trump's work for two terms after Trump leaves office. Then, after 12 years of continual lawsuits, Fox News and other MAGA outlets will be the only news that hasn't been sued out of business.
Why only two terms?
I don't think they could get away with that, but Trump's defenders would justify it if they tried.
Oh the fucking irony of this assertion.
Lol.
They legally argued that they don't have to tell you the truth, in general.
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-cant-believe-the-facts-tucker-carlson-tells-you-so-say-fox-s-lawye
And then later admitted under oath that they lied about the election.
https://www.axios.com/2023/02/27/rupert-murdoch-admits-fox-news-hosts-peddled-election-lies
How many links to CNN, ABC. and NBC from the last 2 years for do you want?
While no news organization is perfect, it would be absurd to argue that CNN, ABC. and NBC (or any non-MAGA source) is even as close to dishonest as Fox.
You still don't understand. Fox is the only honest news out there because they support Trump. All the other ones are dishonest because they don't support Trump. Stop thinking that right and wrong, truth and lie, are determined by facts and principles. It's all about who.
Let me put it another way.
When CNN, ABC, and NBC tell lies or get things wrong, it's inexcusable evil and they must be punished.
When Fox News lies, YOU'RE A LEFTIST! YOU DIDN'T SPEAK UP WHEN THE OTHER NETWORKS DID IT! YOU SUPPORTED MASKS! YOU SUPPORTED BIDEN'S CENSORSHIP! YOU, YOU, YOU!
See the difference?
Leftard Self-Projection 101.
Tell us about that $787M Dominion Defamation case against Fox.
...because that's all Leftards do (see above); day-in and day-out.
"While no news organization is perfect, it would be absurd to argue that CNN, ABC. and NBC (or any non-MAGA source) is even as close to dishonest as Fox."
It is legitimately impossible to argue that they are not.
They did spend YEARS covering a hoax as real, after all.
it would be absurd to argue that CNN, ABC. and NBC (or any non-MAGA source) is even as close to dishonest as Fox.
Stupidly wrong. Every one of these outlets is at least as dishonest as Fox largely because there is no constituency on the left for honesty or decency, they only care about power. People who make this argument are part of the left's propaganda machine.
^this^
I'll accept any that resulted in them admitting under oath that they are a pack of liars. Not opinions, not misstatements, not because your biased Uncle Bob said so; ... stated under oath and on the record like Fox.
Well just today MSNBC settled a lawsuit for lying about a doctor.
Then there was the justification a judge used to rule that a claim by Maddow that OAN was a Russian news agency was not defamatory was because well here is the quote from the judge's ruling
On one hand, a viewer who watches news channels tunes in for facts and the goings-on of the world. MSNBC indeed produces news, but this point must be juxtaposed with the fact that Maddow made the allegedly defamatory statement on her own talk show news segment where she is invited and encouraged to share her opinions with her viewers. Maddow does not keep her political views a secret, and therefore, audiences could expect her to use subjective language that comports with her political opinions.
Thus, Maddow’s show is different than a typical news segment where anchors inform viewers about the daily news. The point of Maddow’s show is for her to provide the news but also to offer her opinions as to that news. Therefore, the Court finds that the medium of the alleged defamatory statement makes it more likely that a reasonable viewer would not conclude that the contested statement implies an assertion of objective fact.
The last sentence is quite a statement
TBF, reasonable viewer might not.
But MSNBC viewers, like Molly, aren’t reasonable. Or intelligent.
😉
Correction - They did not lie, they are shoddy journalist and accused him of performing multiple hysterectomies when he only performed two, but was found to have performed mass "other" medically unnecessary procedures , was responsible for standing orders to perform procedures on pregnant women regardless of their medical conditions, has 6 victims directly suing him, and was found complicit in a medical kickback scheme prior.
This is the equivalent of saying "they lied about a guy killing and eating 12 people ... when he only ate 2 of them, the other 10 are still in the freezer."
If you want to say Madow is the Tucker Carlson of the left ... well, okay I can agree with that; though one is intentionally lying, and the other is just incompetent.
edit: Here is the 103 page report by Homeland Security Subcommittee , so you don't think I'm making this up.
https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/imo/media/doc/2022-11-15%20PSI%20Staff%20Report%20-%20Medical%20Mistreatment%20of%20Women%20in%20ICE%20Detention.pdf
Fox telling outright lies is ok because they helped Trump, but editing an interview is fraud because it didn't help Trump. Right and wrong are determined by who, not what.
Fox telling outright lies is ok because they helped Trump, but editing an interview is fraud because it didn't help Trump. Right and wrong are determined by who, not what.
Note how sarc downplays what the left had done. They outright claimed the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian misinformation, created the Russian Collusion Hoax, and as part of furthering that hoax multiple times claimed a smoking gun was going to be released shortly. This is on top of The 1619 Project and the attack on Libertarian James Buchanan as a segregationist.
But sarc pretends the left media doesn't outright lie. He's always protecting them as best he can.
What lies did Fox tell?
Look at LB's links.
Oh the Fox Lie that is literally based on a False-Negative basis.
Lets see the proof of the supposed lie.
Prove the 2020 election was secure.
It was a BS Stunt by Leftards to shut-up (CENSOR) Fox because MOST of the population saw the election fraud.
https://www.westernjournal.com/poll-majority-likely-voters-now-believe-cheating-impacted-results-2020-election/
As I said then and I'll say it again.
The difference is Democrats went to every measure to CENSOR the skepticism instead of to provide truth and merit to their "secure election" claims.
That alone made their whole election fraud even more questionable.
This is the fallacy known as "switching the burden of proof" being performed by the willfully ignorant TJ who has openly stated that he refuses to learn economics or logic because if he did then he might start thinking like a leftist.
Filing a 'LIE' charge on Fox News puts the burden of proof ON YOU.
Leftards literally succeeded in that case by "switching the burden of proof".
Guilty unless proven innocent. /s
I swear if Leftards couldn't Self-Project they'd all disappear into complete silence.
Hmm, MSNBC did the exact same thing. Weird.
Let's be clear, "fake news" to a MAGA has nothing to do with the factual accuracy of the news, they apply this label to news they don't like.
And you left wingers are outraged Trump is adopting your tactics.
Well, I mean, in fairness, "fake news" to a leftist is the same. Only they apply the words "deplorable democracy hating garbage nazi" to it.
Where's that one chick.
Ohh, here: https://x.com/TheRabbitHole84/status/1889127761643528415
Cool Sullum.
Now do the Twitter Files.
Does the First Amendment protect violating campaign finance laws?
Because there are plausible arguments that these news organixations are violatong campaign finance laws?
How can freedom of speech include acts that violate campaign finance laws?
Three ignorant questions, three simple answers. You didn't really want answers, but you'll get them anyway.
1. The constitution is the supreme law of the land. The first amendment is in the constitution, campaign finance law isn't. If the SC believes a campaign finance law violates the first amendment, it strikes it down and has done so on multiple occasions.
2. No there aren't. There are specific exemptions in campaign finance law for media organizations. To cross the line, it has to be *both* express advocacy ("Vote for Harris") and must be carried out in coordination with the campaign.
3. Same answer as 1.
OK but - there are no real free speech absolutists anywhere anyway. The First Amendment is practically a dead letter insofar as free speech is managed. The Supreme Court feels free to limit free speech according to its temporarily preferred expectations. The First Amendment will never be amended to reflect the current reality, so free speech will permanently be in a fluid state and legislatures and litigants are always going to try it on.
Whiney little-handed bitch.
>Trump's claim that journalism he does not like is "illegal"
You're being generous, calling anything done in this century, 'journalism'.
Ironically, look who writes the piece in the link in that sentence.
bro you're still on Ann Seltzer lol nobody cares. reassess your career.
JS pushe a lot of false articles about Trump last year. He is scared.
At least you admit that you are gleefully looking forward to lawsuits against his critics being a continual part of the Trump administration. I think that's the second time you've been honest in a week. Be careful, you might sprain something.
Oh, he totally wants to see Chuck Schumer and Joe Biden frog-marched to jail.
He just admitted that he'd like to see the Reason staff all sued as well. Which is surprising, being that his entire life is wrapped up in calling people names in the comments.
Your ability to read minds is as good as your logic.
Nobody hear would disagree with that.
As any liberty minded person would.
Remember, it's only "lawfare" when Team Red is the target.
It's still lawfare, but it's ok because Democrats did it first.
sarcs subscript message ... "It's only okay if Democrats do it!!!"
It's always WRONG for Team Red because ................... TRUMP! /s
Except I never said it was ok when Democrats did "it", whatever the "it" is that you justify by saying someone else did it first.
paraphrased, "I never said it was ok when Democrats did it" ... "I just kept on crying about TRUMP doing it"
Precisely why it's called Self-Projection.
Wrong.
Your willingness to bitch about EVERYTHING Trump does shows you have no signs commenting when something is wrong in your eyes.
You ignoring it is you supporting it.
Suck it up.
Why don't you just say that everyone who disagrees with you or criticizes Trump is an evil caricature of everything you hate.
"Trump is an evil caricature of everything I hate.", sarc.
Your bottom-line message is loud and clear.
I am saying you, who bitches about everything involving Trump, was silent under Biden.
YOUR silence = approval.
Deal with it.
I was not silent. It's just that you and the other Trump defenders ignored the articles critical of Biden where I agreed with the authors. You know, the articles you guys either claim do not exist, or if you grudgingly admit their existence you move the goalposts to there not being enough of them or them not being hostile enough.
Your willful ignorance is not my silence.
cite?
cite = "Prove your innocence! Prove it! With bookmarks! Prove you are innocent of what I have accused you of! You can't do it! That means you are guilty!"
Sorry dear but I'm not a loser with thousands of bookmarked comments on Reason.
That's in part because I know that even if I did you and the rest of your ilk wouldn't accept it as proof. You'd say I was lying or move the goalposts. That and I'm not a loser who bookmarks comments on a libertarian magazine's website that no one reads.
"I was not silent."
So you have nothing to backup that claim?
Course everyone would call BS on it (if it even exists). You've packed comments section after comments section cursing Trump and you've never done that on Biden's WELL-KNOWN cartel of media censorship so large even SCOTUS told them to knock it off.
Even if you found one (which I doubt exists) it would be nothing like the charade you're carrying on here.
Because you run around blaming everyone else for EXACTLY what you do.
Except I never said it was ok when Democrats did it
But if you opposed this you would have criticized it. You did not because despite your pretense you don't have a problem with lawfare. You only have a problem with lawfare or any other tactic used against Dems.
Cons and libertarians spent decades objecting to the left's lawfare and propaganda. Left wingers didn't care a bit. Now the right is adopting their tactics and they can't whine enough, but even so they still support the left's actions even as they complain about Trump. You brought us here: own it.
I'm not going to own what you just made up. Sorry dear. Go suck an egg, I mean bag of dicks.
Of course you won't, that would require some sense of responsibility and perspective and all you have to offer is propaganda and childish insults.
Instead you'll keep trying to enforce double standards and we'll keep laughing at you.
You know why I mockingly say "Democrats did it first, so it's ok"?
Because one of you Trump defenders almost always says that, though not in those exact words.
You guys routinely defend Trump for doing things that you call evil when done by Democrats.
And you say I'm enforcing a double-standard?
Dude, you and the other Trump defenders are a double standard.
And you say I'm enforcing a double-standard?
Yep, it's your single most defining characteristic. Literally every standard you have ever judged anyone by you have also broken. Even the fact that you point out others accept Trump's failures is no different than you who accept Dem failures, except in your view this negatively reflects on them but never on you.
Like all left wingers you think Trump is something special and merits these double standards, but in reality he's only doing what leftists have done for decades.
Okie dokie. Keep saying that when Democrats do X it's evil but when Trump does the same thing it's ok, and then say I'm the one with double-standards. Maybe one of these days you're realize how fucking stupid that is.
No. No you won't.
Keep saying that when Democrats do X it's evil but when Trump does the same thing it's ok,
I don' say this. I say you're getting what you asked for and it's never going to change until you give up these tactics. Further since you're trying to protect Dems using them you clearly have no interest in changing. This is important to note because while you posture about being above these tactics in reality you support them which demonstrates your dishonesty as well.
I don' say this.
Then you better get with the program or you'll be subject to attacks. SGT proved that attacking me all the time isn't sufficient to maintain popularity with the Trump defenders.
Then you better get with the program or you'll be subject to attacks
Since that doesn't seem to be happening we can conclude your understanding of how things work is wrong. You errors start with, but are not limited to, insisting everything is about you. Maybe if you ad a life in reality you wouldn't need to build a fantasy life here.
"Except I never said it was ok when Democrats did "it","
No, you just bitched that Republicans will do it and people would THEN say "Democrats did it first".
Chemjeff, your silence is approval.
tell me drop-down menu expenditures weren't part of the 34 felonies.
No, it’s lawfare when the government is using color of law to persecute someone. A private citizen suing media outlets (the two cases Sullum discussed) isn’t lawfare.
Social media posts are definitely not lawfare. Yes, even the ones I disagree with.
You don't think the president of the United States suing news outlets for saying things he doesn't like isn't persecution?
Dude, he kicked off his campaign by saying "I am your retribution!"
He promised "lawfare" for fuck's sake.
Except it's not "lawfare" when he does it. You know why.
"He promised "lawfare" for fuck's sake."
Cite?
Retribution is the act of taking revenge. What does that mean if not lawfare?
"He promised "lawfare" for fuck's sake."
Cite?
And you say--
Retribution is the act of taking revenge. What does that mean if not lawfare?
Because you DON'T HAVE a cite. Because he didn't promise lawfare.
Because retribution can be attained through things other than lawfare.
They can say what they want about you because THEY have receipts. They have proof.
You don't.
You can just say "I don't have a damned thing".
It's your usual.
Whose retribution was he supposed to be? The people that voted for him. He didn’t say he was his own retribution. You can tell cause he said “your” and not “my”. (Ignore the grammatical horribleness of someone saying “I am my retribution”.)
As I understand it, retribution is more about justice than just straight revenge. While searching for a definition I came across this paper: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-4845-3_5. It’s staking out the position that they share essential features and thus need a more clear distinction, which I find interesting from a philosophical standpoint.
But, again, that’s not lawfare.
(On a side note, it’s fucking brilliant what the establishment has managed to do, setting it up so that if they fuck with you and you manage to get any kind of power, you’re now in the Catch 22 of if you don’t go after their malfeasance and corruption you send the signal that it’s okay and if you do go after them obviously the only reason is revenge and not that their use of power and influence was unethical at best and criminal at worst.)
Note ... Trump using the judiciary branch (the branch meant to ensure the 1A) is a lot more appropriate than Biden trying to launch an executive branch Ministry of Truth.
"This whole corrupt operation is nothing more than an illegal arm of the Democrat Party."
EXACTLY ... So congress should be prosecuting Democrat Politicians sending censorship memo's and get rid of all their Nazi-$ ties to the press. That would be a far better route to pursue than trying to prosecute the middlemen.
Well, at least we now know that both teams really do think that 'misinformation' is a problem, as evidenced by their actions to try to combat it. At least they have that going for them.
Team Blue wants elites in government to "suggest" (pretty close to "coerce") media organizations to censor 'misinformation'.
Team Red wants to use the government to find novel constructions of law which makes the purveyors of 'misinformation' liable for something or other in a court of law.
Both teams miss the root problem, which is lack of critical thinking and media literacy skills in general. That will never be solved by censorship or by lawfare. If so many people are gullible enough to believe that Haitians really are eating cats in Springfield just because Trump said so, then using censorship or the courts will never correct that gullibility. The solution is better education, for teaching people the essential critical thinking and media literacy skills that they need for the modern world. That means a new curriculum in schools in which this is added and emphasized.
The solution is better education, for teaching people the essential critical thinking and media literacy skills that they need for the modern world.
Only problem with that idea is that you can't reason people out of what they feel. Ask a Trump defender what could get them to change their minds about the stolen election or Haitians eating cats, and they will just start calling you names. Critical thinking skills won't help.
^The Nazi master-minds of Commie-Indoctrination camps for kids.
LMAO... In the exact same space as they're all yelling about 'Trump' and the 1A (freedom of the press/religion).
What was that you said sarc about it being about WHO not WHAT?
That partisan morons like yourself will excuse and defend anything Trump does, usually by calling people names or claiming Democrats did it first.
Ya know like Trump supporting school choice and dismantling the [Na]tional Commie-Indoctrination camps for kids?
Disagree that education is the answer. Politics is all about emotions, not intellect or reason.
The solution is to weaken the weapons of the State, so the Mob does less damage when it rampages.
Bless you, Chinny Chin Chin, ye are correct!
Oh, and, Trump and Trumpaloos are ALL about the weapons of Government Almighty being used for THEIR side! Butt ass we all know... Shit's all OK, 'cause the Demon-Craps did shit first and worst!
CUTTING government = "ALL about the weapons of Government Almighty being used"
LOL ... Leftard-splaining in action.
The Dear Orange Emperor SUING THE SHIT OUT OF THE MEDIA (using the courts of Government Almighty) so ass to punish them for their free speech is CUTTING government now, ye say? Is this Your THINKS or Your FEELZ?!!?!?
Education as it occurs in America cannot be the answer since it is often the problem as demonstrated by the 1619Project and Critical Race Theory. Actual education distinguished from propaganda would help, but that requires a complete reordering of the education system first. On the bright side the current government restructuring is providing an example for education restructuring so maybe there is hope.
I’m more inclined to believe that a respected pollster was right and that Trump stole the election. Sue me.
But since both sides seem to believe that misinformation is the big problem in this country, and I’m inclined to agree, it’s almost quaintly reassuring that we have a first amendment to prevent some hysterical orange drag queen from making rules by fiat to silence people.
You seem kinda insurrectiony.
Amazing how you bitched when people noted how Democrats always dispute elections.
I’m more inclined to believe that a respected pollster was right and that Trump stole the election.
Proving yet again left wingers assert whatever helps their party. When they win fraud is impossible, when they lose it happened despite no evidence. Nothing could be less surprising.
Leftard #2 to proclaim "misinformation is the big problem"..
In the exact same space they're crying about Trump filling cases under the Deceptive Trade Practices Act.
Leftards fully support a [Na]tional Ministry of Truth by a Democrat.
Just NOT Trump making Deceptive Trade Practices cases.
...because that's what kind of mentality develops from believers of [WE] Identify-as mobsters RULE! 'democracy' without any Supreme Law recognition. The left doesn't care about principles. They care about winning at any cost which goes right along with their winning with Gov - 'Gun' armed-theft of those icky people.
It’s especially funny because 30 years ago he’d have a (D) after his name and the same leftist would be licking his nuts.
Alas poor Sullum; I knew him.
Lately when I skim his articles, I see Bill Murry in Groundhog Day flashing through the background.
(fun fact: spell check doesn't recognize 'Sullum')
Holy hell, Jacob cited HIMSELF in this ridiculous piece.
Oh he does that CONSTANTLY. He's his own favorite source. I'm pretty convinced he does it just to get links in his articles as if seeing them underlined makes the reader think they're genuinely researched.
When you are president of the United States, it turns out, you can intimidate major news outlets simply by suing them, no matter how absurd your legal arguments are. Trump was always rich enough to bankroll lawsuits that imposed costs on people whose speech offended him even when they had not said anything that remotely resembled a tort.
Is this wrong? It sounds an awful lot like the US Justice Department going after various Trump campaign officials in desperate search for support for their Russian Collusion Hoax.
On the bright side there's never been any question our government functions when putting the brakes on Trump. The problem comes when Dems are in power and theoretically oppositional institutions are in fact colluding as they did creating the Title IX sex police.
Comments here are a cesspool of MAGA retards interacting with progressive retards. Actual libertarians are almost nonexistent here.
Which part of CUTTING government is not "actually libertarian"?
Are you really trying to hang MAGA over just open-borders and tariffs (both constitutional powers and interest in national defense)?
The way I see it is Libertarians got a base because of RINO'S and now that MAGA destroyed the RINO'S lead they have nothing left to set them apart so they decided to attack the very Libertarian MAGA base out of nothing but Identity issues.
Hey Jake, define "journalism."
And then tell me if Joy Reid fits under it.
I'll wait.
I'll assume this article's factual accuracy for comment purposes and point out that Trump's fake news lawsuit arguments are already being turned around against him as the world's acknowledged fake news expert. He likely doesn'f even realize the legal swamp he will soon be drowning in, which is undrainable.
60/135 are muted grey boxes.
6x is longest string of grey boxes.
Chemjeff
TJJ2000
Sarcasmic
AT
SQRSLY
Shout out to the paid propagandists - clearly sent to this article to defend their Fake News; they big-time mad everyone else has had enough of their shit, and elected Daddy Trump to do something about it!
(Also they are probably mad their gravy train is getting DOGE’d)
Look. This is the proper way to settle this. In court. With presentation of evidence. Trump is not trying to make a first amendment exception. Because this isn't government action. This is Trump filing a lawsuit in civil court. Which, I might add, is a darn sight better than his predecessor raiding news agencies.
And don't forget the low bar that has been set for election interference. If Trump signing an NDA to keep an affair secret is binding precedent, I can see the argument that fabricating an interview to this extent is as well. At least enough to not dismiss the idea outright.
On a personal level, I'd love to see all interviews released in full unedited form as well as the ones edited down for broadcast, so we can see this.
Blah blah blah Twitter Files or something. Is it clear now that Trump is not a champion of free speech? He goes well beyond any violations charged against Biden.
1) You can't say or print "diversity", "equity" and so on. It's getting quite orwellian out here. If your orgganization receives federal funds you are probably literally seeing these words disappearing from websites. Jobs too. These are common concepts up for legitimate debate.
2) Does Trump even have any proof or evidence that Selzer intended to deceive? If he has no proof or evidence this lawsuit is radical. Would anyone ever again make a poll knowing that if they get it wrong they will be sued? Polls are famously known for having margins of error and statistically speaking, results can go beyond the margin of error sometimes.
3) The CBS lawsuit is a joke. It was a minor edit and only for the preview. Journalists do your job! How many times has FOX edited an interview? How many times have they gotten Trump on air and thrown him softball questions and simped for him? Maybe the fact that he has hired 20 ex FOX news people for his administration ought to tell you something.
4) Musk is actively messing with the twitter algorithm and that's suposedly ok. Huh? How does that work? The guy that is in charge of firing and cutting the federal workforce gets to control the flow of twitter feeds but when Biden asks them to do some fact checking it's a huge scandal.
It's good that Reason is reporting on this. It's important. It's important though that we all see that Trump was cynically using everyone. He never gave a darn about the first amendment. Whatabouting to Biden and the Twitter files or something just shows off how kept you are.
Minor edit? It completely changed the interview. The broadcasted versus full video is night and day. There were even one answer that were transposed from one question to another. This wasn't a light airbrushing or clipping for time. It changed the entire interview.
You can argue that this isn't deceptive, but trying to downplay that this wasn't significant is just nonsensical.
yet nowhere do you admit that there is fake news and that it has been horrible in its consequences, eg Covid medicines
Where were you when Biden essayed the GOVERNMENT DISINFORMATION BOARD ? You like that huh 🙂
Morons
Biden never criminalized speech online or otherwise
your idiot dictator just hates it when people disagree with him
Douglass Mackey begs to differ. He spent, iirc, two months (of a seven month sentence) in prison for posting a meme on social media.