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Donald Trump

A Revised Trump Indictment Tries To Overcome the 'Presumption' of Presidential Immunity

In charging the former president with illegal election interference, Special Counsel Jack Smith emphasizes the defendant's personal motivation and private means.

Jacob Sullum | 8.28.2024 4:05 PM

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donald trump speaking | Credit: Gage Skidmore/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom
(Credit: Gage Skidmore/ZUMAPRESS/Newscom)

When the Supreme Court endorsed broad presidential immunity from criminal charges last month, it raised troubling questions about whether and how former occupants of the White House can be held accountable for abusing their powers. In an initial attempt to answer those questions, Special Counsel Jack Smith this week unveiled a superseding indictment in the federal election interference case against former President Donald Trump—the same case that prompted the Court's ruling.

The viability of United States v. Trump is unclear at this point. The Supreme Court charged U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan with reviewing the charges against Trump in light of its ruling, and any decisions she makes will be subject to appeal. There is no chance that the case will go to trial before this year's presidential election, and if Trump wins, we can be sure he will find a way to make it disappear. Smith's revisions nevertheless suggest what it might take to successfully prosecute a former president despite the obstacles that the Supreme Court has erected.

The most notable change from the original indictment is the excision of any reference to Trump's interactions with the Department of Justice (DOJ). The government initially portrayed those conversations, in which Trump pressured DOJ officials to investigate his baseless claims of systematic election fraud, as part of a criminal scheme to overturn President Joe Biden's victory. But the Supreme Court explicitly ruled out criminal liability based on such contacts.

Trump was exercising his "conclusive and preclusive" authority as president when he urged the DOJ to validate his stolen-election fantasy, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote in the majority opinion. The executive branch has "'exclusive authority and absolute discretion' to decide which crimes to investigate and prosecute," he wrote, "including with respect to allegations of election crime."

As Justice Sonya Sotomayor noted in a dissent joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Ketanji Brown Jackson, that holding seems to give presidents a lot of leeway to wield the federal government's daunting prosecutorial powers against their political or personal enemies. Under the majority's "view of core powers," she said, "even fabricating evidence and insisting the [Justice] Department use it in a criminal case could be covered."

Sotomayor also noted other possible implications of the majority's position. When a president "uses his official powers in any way, under the majority's reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution," she warned. "Orders the Navy's Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune."

Roberts faulted Sotomayor for "fear mongering on the basis of extreme hypotheticals." But we do not need imaginary scenarios to understand the perils of assuring presidents that they need not worry about the threat of criminal prosecution as long as they are exercising their "core powers."

The proposed articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon alleged, among other things, that he made "false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States" and that he interfered with "the conduct of investigations by the Department of Justice of the United States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, [and] the office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force." The issue of whether Nixon could have faced criminal charges based on those allegations was never litigated, because he resigned before he could be impeached, and his successor, Gerald Ford, granted him a pardon that covered any federal offenses he might have committed in office. But according to the Supreme Court's reasoning in Trump v. United States, Nixon's corrupt interactions with the DOJ would have been off limits for federal prosecutors.

Beyond that specific instruction, the Court was hazy about the extent of presidential immunity. "We conclude that under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of Presidential power requires that a former President have some immunity from criminal prosecution for official acts during his tenure in office," Roberts wrote. "At least with respect to the President's exercise of his core constitutional powers, this immunity must be absolute. As for his remaining official actions, he is also entitled to immunity. At the current stage of proceedings in this case, however, we need not and do not decide whether that immunity must be absolute, or instead whether a presumptive immunity is sufficient."

What about Trump's interactions with Vice President Mike Pence? Trump persistently pressured Pence, in private and in public, to intervene on his behalf during the congressional ratification of the election results by rejecting electoral votes for Biden. Citing the "contingent" electors that his campaign had recruited in several battleground states, Trump urged Pence to send both sets of slates "back to the states" so that legislators could resolve a nonexistent controversy about the actual results. Pence repeatedly resisted, saying he had no authority to do what Trump asked.

The original indictment portrayed those interactions as a key part of a criminal conspiracy to change the outcome of the election. That aspect of the indictment presented "difficult questions," according to the Supreme Court. "Whenever the President and Vice President discuss their official responsibilities, they engage in official conduct," Roberts wrote. "Presiding over the January 6 certification proceeding at which Members of Congress count the electoral votes is a constitutional and statutory duty of the Vice President. The indictment's allegations that Trump attempted to pressure the Vice President to take particular acts in connection with his role at the certification proceeding thus involve official conduct, and Trump is at least presumptively immune from prosecution for such conduct."

The question, Roberts said, is "whether that presumption of immunity is rebutted under the circumstances." He noted that the vice president is acting "in his capacity as President of the Senate," part of the legislative branch, when he oversees the electoral vote count. The government therefore "may argue that consideration of the President's communications with the Vice President concerning the certification proceeding does not pose 'dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.'"

Would that argument be correct? Maybe not, Roberts suggested: "The President may frequently rely on the Vice President in his capacity as President of the Senate to advance the President's agenda in Congress. When the Senate is closely divided, for instance, the Vice President's tiebreaking vote may be crucial for confirming the President's nominees and passing laws that align with the President's policies. Applying a criminal prohibition to the President's conversations discussing such matters with the Vice President—even though they concern his role as President of the Senate—may well hinder the President's ability to perform his constitutional functions. It is ultimately the Government's burden to rebut the presumption of immunity."

The new indictment tries to do that in several ways. It notes that Pence was Trump's "own running mate," meaning the intervention that Trump demanded would personally benefit both of them. It adds that "all of the conversations between [Trump] and [Pence] described below focused on [Trump] maintaining power." The indictment points out that Trump "had no official responsibilities related to the certification proceeding, but he did have a personal interest as a candidate in being named the winner of the election." It later reiterates that Trump "had no official role" in the certification process.

The indictment also emphasizes the private character of other conduct that might be construed as "official acts." Regarding Trump's pressure on state officials to reverse Biden's victories, for example, the indictment notes that Trump "had no official responsibilities related to any state's certification of the election results." Discussing Trump's "fake electors" scheme, the indictment likewise notes that he "had no official responsibilities related to the convening of legitimate electors or their signing and mailing of their certificates of vote."

Like the original indictment, the revised version describes the notorious telephone conversation in which Trump leaned on Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to "find" the votes necessary to reverse the election outcome in that state. But the indictment makes a point of noting that the participants in that call included "private attorneys" and White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, who "sometimes handled private and Campaign-related logistics" for Trump.

The indictment still relies on Trump's social media posts to make the case that he pushed a phony grievance aimed at preventing Biden from taking office. But it argues that such communications should not be viewed as "official acts."

Although Trump "sometimes used his Twitter account to communicate with the public, as President, about official actions and policies," the indictment says, "he also regularly used it for personal purposes—including to spread knowingly false claims of election fraud, exhort his supporters to travel to Washington, D.C. on January 6, pressure the Vice President to misuse his ceremonial role in the certification proceeding, and leverage the events at the Capitol on January 6 to unlawfully retain power." And when Trump riled up his supporters that day, stoking their outrage at the prospect that Congress was about to recognize Biden's supposedly fraudulent victory, he was speaking at "a privately-funded, privately-organized political rally."

The indictment lists five alleged co-conspirators, "none of whom were government officials during the conspiracies and all of whom were acting in a private capacity." It describes four as "private attorney[s]" and one as "a private political consultant."

You get the idea. Smith's general approach is apparent in the opening paragraph of the indictment, which describes Trump as "a candidate for President of the United States in 2020." By contrast, the original indictment described him as "the forty-fifth President of the United States and a candidate for re-election in 2020," which Smith evidently thought sounded too "official."

In substance, the indictment remains essentially the same. Trump is still charged with four felonies: conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of an official proceeding, and conspiracy to deprive Americans of their voting rights.

Those two obstruction charges could prove problematic. In June, the Supreme Court ruled that an alleged Capitol rioter could not be charged with obstructing an official proceeding by interfering with the electoral vote tally. Writing for the majority, Roberts said proving that the offense requires "establish[ing] that the defendant impaired the availability or integrity for use in an official proceeding of records, documents, objects," or "other things used in the proceeding, or attempted to do so."

After that decision, University of Richmond law professor Riley Keenan noted that Trump's lawyers were sure to cite it in seeking dismissal of the similar charges against him. But Keenan suggested that they "may not succeed," because "the obstruction charge against him is based in part on the allegation that he organized slates of electors to certify false election results to Congress," which "may amount to impairing the integrity of the evidence used in the certification proceedings."

Either way, the gist of the case is that Trump illegally sought to remain in office after he lost the 2020 election, and Smith cites two other statutes to support that argument. If Trump loses again this year and the case proceeds, it will help elucidate the limits that the Supreme Court has imposed on criminal charges against former presidents.

Assuming that prosecutors can avoid or overcome the presumption of immunity by emphasizing the defendant's personal motivation and/or private means, it may still be possible to hold former presidents accountable for crimes they committed in office even when they manage to avoid impeachment and removal for political or practical reasons (as Nixon and Trump both did). But if the Supreme Court ultimately concludes that saying "private" and "personal" a lot does not cut it, or if it decides that absolute immunity is the only way to adequately protect presidential prerogatives even when "core powers" are not implicated, it will create the sort of impunity that rightly worries Sotomayor.

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NEXT: John Stossel Fact Checks RFK Jr.

Jacob Sullum is a senior editor at Reason.

Donald TrumpimmunityCriminal JusticeElection 2020Capitol RiotElection 2024ProsecutorsDepartment of JusticeExecutive PowerSeparation of PowersSupreme CourtImpeachmentRichard NixonJoe BidenElectionsCampaigns/Elections
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  1. Sometimes a Great Notion   9 months ago

    mmm Ham Sandwiches

    - Homer J Simpson Special Counsel

    1. Rob Misek   9 months ago

      The claim “Nothing to see here folks” usually indicates that that there is something to see.

      ALL MEDIA immediately censored everyone who was concerned about election irregularities including the sitting president at the time, Trump.

      Zuckerberg admits the pressure he experienced from the Biden Administration.

      Does anyone really think Biden would have still resigned if Trump had been successfully assassinated?

      When there are election irregularities this time, should we just routinely expect the same censorship?

      1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

        So are you and neo-Nazi, or an Islamist?

        1. Mother's Lament   9 months ago

          He's a piece of shit is what he is.

          Also, refuted.

      2. Rob Misek   9 months ago

        The satanic controlled media and government are brainwashing the population to reject civilized values, most of all the concept of right versus wrong.

        When scientific fact is disregarded, and children are counseled that they can change their sex with surgery, complete nonsense, what chance do ethical values like right versus wrong have in the human psyche?

        These brainwashing attacks are backed up with laws and coercion that violates our inalienable constitutional rights.

        1. Rob Misek   9 months ago

          When right versus wrong are meaningless, it logically follows that truth versus lies must be equally meaningless and then all communication becomes meaningless babble with no point whatsoever.

          Meaningless babble being what the anonymous trolls here demonstrate entirely.

          1. Rob Misek   9 months ago

            People are defined by our actions.

            When right, wrong, truth and lies are all meaningless, all our thoughts are equally meaningless and any actions we take again meaningless, our future meaningless, all concepts that we could ever perceive- meaningless.

            Not exactly a plan for success.

            1. Rob Misek   9 months ago

              If that’s your worldview and you want to babble here, do us all a favour, and get straight to your conclusion that everything you say is meaningless.

    2. Johnathan Galt   9 months ago

      Exactly.

  2. Mother's Lament   9 months ago

    Didn't the court basically say Jack Smith has no standing as a prosecutor because of how he was appointed? Did I miss something?

    1. Stuck in California   9 months ago

      Yes. You missed the part where these people don't give a shit about the courts, the constitution, or anything else. They get paid out of the public trough and it costs them nothing to wage a legal war of attrition that can bleed most people dry, regardless of the rule of law.

      1. Mother's Lament   9 months ago

        Garland needs to be in prison for so many things now there is almost no point in keeping a list. Just pick something and he probably did it.

        1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

          Might as well round up all the democrat elites and throw them in GitMo then. Which we should have done years ago.

      2. JasonT20   9 months ago

        No. The Supreme Court did not agree with that argument Trump's lawyers made in the documents case and in District Court Judge Aileen Cannon's ruling on the issue. Thomas was the only Justice to give it any credence, if I remember correctly.

        1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

          We don’t given much credence to your ‘recollection’. Smith has no standing to prosecute anyone. But we get it. Whatever a democrat feels like doing is ok, right comrade?

          1. Liberty_Belle   9 months ago

            The ruling by Judge Cannon, who was placed on the bench by Mr. Trump, stunned many legal experts for the way that it upended 25 years of Justice Department practice and flew in the face of previous court decisions about the appointments of special prosecutors reaching back to the Watergate era.

            There is also a write up by a law prof at Syracuse . Basically Judge Cannon is in the bag for Trump and has already had some outrageous rulings overturned.

            https://news.syr.edu/blog/2024/07/16/the-trump-documents-case-should-not-have-been-dismissed-says-law-prof/

            1. Jaydog   9 months ago

              Just because no other court has considered the matter doesn't mean cannon is wrong. She isn't. The special counsel statute expired a long time ago and Smith, unlike other special counsels was never senate approved. Nobody cares what some blogger thinks. Clarence Thomas would not have written his own opinion on thr matter if he didn't already have four other justices who agreed with him. All of smith's BS indictments are doomed and everyone knows it. Including you. Which is why you're whining.

    2. Sometimes a Great Notion   9 months ago

      Pending appeal. Jack just filed it on Monday, I believe.

    3. Gaear Grimsrud   9 months ago

      The judge in FL dismissed the case on that basis but it's not binding in the DC circuit. Trump has raised the same challenge in DC but no chance the district court judge, Chutkin, will dismiss. It will end up in two circuit appellate courts and almost certainly in the supreme court but it will take years. meanwhile everybody gets paid. Except Trump.

      1. EdG   9 months ago

        Trump will earn $0.77 per hour for his labor in Federal prison.

        1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

          Yeah, things don’t work the way your faggot ass thinks they do.

        2. Mother's Lament   9 months ago

          Imagine celebrating political prosecution on a libertarian website.

          1. R Mac   9 months ago

            * libertarian comment section

    4. John C. Randolph   9 months ago

      Yep. Just like there was no constitutional authority for Pelosi to hold her second kangaroo court after Trump was out of office.

      -jcr

    5. MSmith   9 months ago

      Yeah I was wondering about that too. Shouldn't they be required to pick someone else as special prosecutor?

    6. windycityattorney   9 months ago

      Judge Cannon ruled that in his documents case in south Florida. That ruling is on appeal. The Sup Ct never ruled on that (aside from Thomas writing from his benefactors yacht).

      That decision is up on appeal and working its way toward the Sup Ct (potentially). Depending on how the appellate court rules will likely determine whether the US SUP CT steps in or not.

  3. IceTrey   9 months ago

    So where's the election interference charges for Zuckerberg, Biden, Harris and the DOJ?

    1. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

      But they were just SAVING (D)EMOCRACY.

  4. Sometimes a Great Notion   9 months ago

    Justice Sonya Sotomayor noted in a dissent joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Ketanji Brown Jackson,

    Could have limited executive authority on numerous cases...instead they whine that the president, a human, may misuse it. You three dumb cunts just voted to keep Chevron. Limited government keeps fools like Trump from doing illegal shit but you three morons are more then happy giving the executive branch unlimited power as long as they are the "right" president. Go fuck yourselves.

    1. Overt   9 months ago

      "Limited government keeps fools like Trump from doing illegal shit"

      Or at least limits the blast radius of such illegal shit. And limits the incentive because the blast radius is so inconsequential.

      Is it any wonder that as our government has grown larger and larger, politicians have become more and more focused on holding power than doing their jobs?

  5. The Mysterious Edwin Dunkel   9 months ago

    Lawfare is back with a vengeance. Kamala's internal polls must not be looking so good. I wonder why most of the public polls haven't been updated in over a week? Did they discontinue polling?

    1. Enemy of the State   9 months ago

      NYT, which over samples Democrats had Trump 46% Harris 49% as of yesterday...

      1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

        And given how democrats persecute Trump supporters, how many people refuse to answer or just lie. Thinking they might go on a list. And really, would any of you put that past the NYT?

      2. Minadin   9 months ago

        National polls mean next to nothing, even when conducted properly.

      3. Mother's Lament   9 months ago

        Rasmussen says otherwise

  6. Quo Usque Tandem   9 months ago

    If at first you don't succeed....

    1. Eeyore   9 months ago

      Is it sexual harassment yet?

    2. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

      ...you hire another assassin.

  7. SRG2   9 months ago

    The recent ruling granting presidents in general and Trump specifically immunity for official acts under core powers was a fucking disgrace, a gruesomely authoritarian and indefensible decision.

    Whether Trump is guilty of the crimes he's accused of should be a matter for a jury, and his being president should make no difference. It's bad enough that the Trumpsuckers think that by definition the king Trump can do no wrong. It's worse when courts so deem.

    I would not object if a jury acquitted Trump of some or all charges. I do object to Trump's escaping trial altogether on spurious and ahistorical grounds.

    OF course, we all know that he's a crook and a criminal. It's just that some of you believe he should get away with it, because he's your guy, principles - except the führerprinzip - be damned.

    1. Mother's Lament   9 months ago

      What was he charged with again, Shrike2?

    2. Mickey Rat   9 months ago

      Trump’s immunity would have been removed if he had been convicted in Senate after being impeached. The correct process needs to be followed.

      And because Trump is not "your guy", you think he should be punished for the crime of defeating Hillary Clinton, and because you know he is guilty, all forms of due process and presumption of innocence should be done away with

      1. Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment   9 months ago

        This shit supposedly has a tertiary degree of some sort; guessing it's Ed school or J school.

      2. chemjeff radical individualist   9 months ago

        Looks like this guy disagrees with you:

        https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/13/politics/mitch-mcconnell-acquit-trump/index.html

        McConnell argued that “impeachment was never meant to be the final forum for American justice,” but suggested Trump could be subject to criminal prosecution in the future.

        “We have a criminal justice system in this country. We have civil litigation. And former Presidents are not immune from being held accountable by either one,” he said.

        1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

          So? No one gives a shit what Bitch McConnell thinks. And everyone here knows what an intellectually dishonest shitweasel you are too.

          By the way, I found a picture of you. Before your recent weight gain.

          https://imgflip.com/tag/fat+nazi

    3. Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment   9 months ago

      "The recent ruling granting presidents in general and Trump specifically immunity for official acts under core powers was a fucking disgrace, a gruesomely authoritarian and indefensible decision..."

      You are a steaming, slimy pile of TDS-addled shit. FOAD, asshole.

    4. JFree   9 months ago

      I agree that the Trump immunity decision was a disgrace. Likely one of the worst SC decisions of all time.

      But this Smith guy trying to worm his way through convoluted arguments in order to make a case that the SC decision doesn’t much matter is a poor response. Too late and lawyer tricks.

      What Biden should have done the nanosecond Trump declared for 2024 was accept that Biden himself was no longer a candidate for 2024. At that point, he can go after Trump as head of the executive branch enforcing the laws of the land against a former Prez who had already rendered an impeachment on that issue moot. Not as prospective candidate looking to weaponize government against a competitor. Both the R and D primaries would have opened up to legitimate competition. It would have been much more difficult imo for the SC to issue such a shitty overreaching deceptive opinion – esp since Roberts personally undermined the impeachment. And if they had – then it would have become viable at least that both R’s and D’s might cooperate to castrate the SC decision via constitutional amendment.

      Biden has a long history of making poor self-serving decision.

      1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

        Biden is a democrat. Democrats are largely self serving Marxist scumbags. Or they’re just outright stupid. Like Biden, who was an idiot even in his prime.

      2. Sevo, 5-30-24, embarrassment   9 months ago

        "I agree that the Trump immunity decision was a disgrace. Likely one of the worst SC decisions of all time..."

        That's because you're a steaming pile of TDS-addled lefty shit. FOAD, asshole.

    5. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

      Fuck off Shrike. You’re just mad that your democrat masters couldn’t get away with their bullshit prosecution.

      Seethe harder.

    6. Earth-based Human Skeptic   9 months ago

      Any other people we all know have committed criminal acts?

    7. Michael Ejercito   9 months ago

      The recent ruling granting presidents in general and Trump specifically immunity for official acts under core powers was a fucking disgrace, a gruesomely authoritarian and indefensible decision.
      What makes it authoritarian?

      Which official powers should be criminalized?

      Should prosecutors argue that pardons constitute the crime of obstructing justice?

    8. Rick James   9 months ago

      It’s just that some of you believe he should get away with it

      What's the 'it' he's getting away with?

    9. MK Ultra   9 months ago

      Fucking useless jackass.

  8. Mother's Lament   9 months ago

    In the past 24 hours:

    -Dems force RFK Jr. to stay on the ballot
    -Dems remove Cornel West off the ballot
    -DOJ files an upgraded Trump indictment
    -Facebook admits they censored posts in compliance with Biden-Harris requests.

    Saving democracy by ending it.

    1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

      Time to end the democrat party. Remove them all.

      It’s long past time to get rid of them.

      1. Gaear Grimsrud   9 months ago

        I'm investing in woodchippers in anticipation of the civil war.

        1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

          It’s probably also a good time to invest in large quantities of lye, and co posting facilities. Gotta keep things green.

    2. Earth-based Human Skeptic   9 months ago

      You might not understand (or like) what they mean by "democracy".

      1. Mother's Lament   9 months ago

        It's actually (D)emocracy.

    3. MatthewSlyfield   9 months ago

      "We had to destroy the village in order to save the village."

  9. Mickey Rat   9 months ago

    So let me understand the legal theory Sullum is pushing. Alleging that election results may not be on the up and up is a crime, unless you can conclusively prove it in a court of law?

    Is that really the standard we want to set? That is what "pushing a greivance" on social media seems to mean, and how does that square with free speech principles?

    1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

      His legal theory is that it is illegal to contradict Party members in good standing.

    2. Gaear Grimsrud   9 months ago

      I can't bring myself to read Sullen's screeds so thanks for explaining the theory. I figured it would be something like that.

    3. Bruce Hayden   9 months ago

      The funny thing about his election related rants is that he almost never misses a chance to insert an adjective like “discredited” to characterize Trump’s claims. Of course, after years of investigation, we now have significant evidence, esp from GA and AZ, that there was significant election fraud in those states in counting the 2020 votes (almost said “ballots” - but the ballots counted didn’t equal votes counted in either state).

      It’s pandering to the TDS addled left. His problem is that he is so blatant about it. One “discredited” might be forgivable. A half dozen or so is just grandstanding.

    4. Michael Ejercito   9 months ago

      Alleging that election results may not be on the up and up is a crime, unless you can conclusively prove it in a court of law?


      How does this apply to Hillary Clinton and John Podesta?

      1. Mickey Rat   9 months ago

        I am sure that will be considered (D)ifferent.

    5. markm23   9 months ago

      Alleging that election results may not be on the up and up is a crime, unless you can conclusively prove it in a court of law are a Democrat?

  10. Thoritsu   9 months ago

    This is the clearest evidence of a disgusting, totalitarian, Stalin-Mao-Goebells lynch mob, ever perpetrated in by the Federal Government.

    Giving power to (voting for) the same administration perpetrating this is the most ridiculous, lemming, non-Libertarian action anyone can take. The ONLY Libertarian policy of this administration is abortion. Every other freedom is better supported by a Trump administration.

    We might as well just hold a referendum for government baby monitors in every home with remotely-detonated explosives in every neck.

    1. DenverJ   9 months ago

      "The ONLY Libertarian policy of this administration is abortion. " Abortion is just as divisive among Libertarians as it is within society as a whole. The anti-abortion libertarian argument is that, without the right to life, all other rights are meaningless. My opinion I won't get into, but to think that being pro-abortion is automatically the libertarian position is simplistic.

      1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

        It is pretty evenly divided. I remember Stossel doing a segment on that subject when he had his show in Fox Business.

  11. mad.casual   9 months ago

    So I hear that Hunter Biden may've actually committed some no-shit crimes and that, after the Biden-Harris Administration illegally censored the reporting on the discovery of his laptop, the Biden-Harris Administration's DOJ sat on the charges until it was too late, then after illegally censoring the story and sitting on the charges, tried to negotiate a deal in bad faith and slide it by a judge.

    Seems like even granting Trump presumption of immunity, there's still presumption of immunity and then there's PRESUMPTION OF IMMUNITY.

    1. Gaear Grimsrud   9 months ago

      C’mon Man! Hunter is a troubled young man and he may have to pay a fine and perform community service, or pay someone else to do it for him. As Jacob Sullen has explained many times, the boy is a victim of DOJ lawfare. He’s a fucking 2A hero standing firmly against the evil machinations of the state. Hopefully poppa Joe will reign in these hyper politicized prosecutors and pardon this misguided youngster before he falls in with a bad crowd.

      1. Bruce Hayden   9 months ago

        He’s 50 now. He’s just young compared to his octogenarian father.

        1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

          He’s just a little boy! Baby boy Hunter!

      2. mad.casual   9 months ago

        I mean sure, Hillary was just Secretary of State with no presumption of immunity but it was totally according to protocol that the FBI would presume that no reasonable prosecutor would bring a case and then say so before turning things over to the AG.

    2. DaveM   9 months ago

      That trial where they tried to slip complete immunity from prosecution past that judge was epic. All the judge had to say was, “excuse me, what is this?”, and the entire evil plan unraveled.

      I’ve seen this same effect in several video interviews where a person making a blanket accusation is asked to give even one example, but cannot. In one especially funny version, the interviewee was claiming that “everything that guy says is wrong”, and when asked for an example, replied in all seriousness, “I just told you I never watch that guy because everything he says is wrong”.

      Oof dah.

  12. williams25248   9 months ago

    How can anyone argue that a sitting US President using a SEAL team to assassinate a political opponent is exercising his lawful duties of office? Or covering up a politically-motivated burglary (a crime in and of itself) by elements of his own administration, re Nixon? Trump's activities regarding the Georgia vote? If there is evidence that he actively interfered with either the vote certification or the electoral college votes from Georgia, that's one thing. If he questioned aspects of the GA vote and asked his people to look into it? Probably another.

    1. NealAppeal   9 months ago

      The dissents' hypotheticals are probably things Team D is already guilty of (or seriously considered). Whatever they rage and scream about the most about what Trump might do has been shown to be what the Dems have been doing all along.

      1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

        The entire DNC should be in prison at this point.

    2. Rev Arthur L kuckland (5-30-24 banana republic day)   9 months ago

      Watergate was a cia op. The people involved in Watergate were the same people in Dallas. Nixon didn't trusts the cia and wanted to limit their power. The cia did watergate because they knew they couldn't get away with another assassination

    3. DaveM   9 months ago

      "How can anyone argue that a sitting US President using a SEAL team to assassinate a political opponent is exercising his lawful duties of office?"

      They obviously can't do so logically, but they can do so emotionally. An emotion-based argument can't be countered with reason, those are ships passing in the night. You have to fight fire with fire. You'd have to make a counter-emotional argument.

  13. Idaho-Bob   9 months ago

    How can anyone argue that a sitting US President using a SEAL team to assassinate a political opponent is exercising his lawful duties of office?

    (D)epends if The Party is saving democracy.

    1. rbike   9 months ago

      How about odd incels from Pennsylvania?

      1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

        What about morbidly obese pedophile incels? Is Jeffy from Pennsylvania?

  14. Earth-based Human Skeptic   9 months ago

    Remember when Democrats were vocal (and peacefully violent) critics of government prosecution, especially questionable charges and creative enforcement? Were they lying then, or are they lying now?

    1. Gaear Grimsrud   9 months ago

      "Remember when Reason Editors were vocal and stultifyingly boring critics of government prosecution, especially questionable charges and creative enforcement? Were they lying then, or are they lying now?"
      FTFY

    2. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

      They’ve lways been lying, they never cared about anything but getting their way. Now that they hold the levers of power, they care nothing about the law or justice. Those things were just used as a shield when they weren’t strong enough to oppress everyone else.

      They’re very arrogant now. It will take a lot before they give up. Their arrogance and stupidity will cost many lives.

  15. TJJ2000   9 months ago

    Not as-if everyone didn't see how unfair that election was.... /s
    Lets spend another year turning any election integrity into a crime.... /s

  16. holmegm   9 months ago

    You ... *do* know that just endlessly repeating the word "fantasy" doesn't turn something into one, right?

    1. Gaear Grimsrud   9 months ago

      No. No he doesn't.

    2. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

      Trump was exercising his "conclusive and preclusive" authority as president when he urged the DOJ to validate his stolen-election fantasy, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote

      Roberts did not refer to any "stolen-election fantasy" in his ruling, Lying Jacob.

  17. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

    that holding seems to give presidents a lot of leeway to wield the federal government's daunting prosecutorial powers against their political or personal enemies.

    You mean, more than Biden is wielding now against Trump?

  18. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

    "Orders the Navy's Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune."

    Please show us where in the Constitution or in federal law the president is given the official power to do any of those things. If you don't know what the Constitution is, Google it.

    1. Moderation4ever   9 months ago

      The President also is not given the power to throw out election results he doesn't like. Trump violated his oath of office when he refused to transfer power as required.

      1. Bruce Hayden   9 months ago

        I thought that Trump moved out of the White House on time, and moved to his MAL resort. What am I missing here?

      2. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

        Do you have a link to the video of Trump being forced out of the White House at gunpoint? Somehow I missed it.

      3. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

        When did that happen? Don’t run away now you lying cunt.

      4. VinniUSMC (Banana Republic Day 5/30/24)   9 months ago

        The President also is not given the power to throw out election results he doesn’t like. Trump violated his oath of office when he refused to transfer power as required.

        Oddly, or rather entirely as expected from a Leftist, neither of these assertions is in the realm of reality. No election results were thrown out. No transfer of power was refused.

        1. windycityattorney   9 months ago

          Only because Pence wouldn't go along with it and almost got himself un-alived because of it.

          1. VinniUSMC (Banana Republic Day 5/30/24)   9 months ago

            Yes, because Pence wouldn't go along with it. Which is exactly how it should work.

            almost got himself un-alived because of it.

            Should've left this part of your pink-skied world out if it.

      5. DaveM   9 months ago

        Wait, Trump has been the President all this time? I guess now we know why Kamala's been running against the incumbent. She obviously knows something we don't. /s

    2. Miss Ann Thrope (She/It)   9 months ago

      They left out ordering the killing of a U.S. citizen, not convicted in court, via drone stroke.

  19. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

    Regarding Trump's pressure on state officials to reverse Biden's victories...

    No such thing happened, Lying Jacob.

    1. Moderation4ever   9 months ago

      Well, nowhere except GA, AZ, PA, MI, and Wi. But that only five out of 50 states. Trump did not do anything in 45 states. Shouldn't that count for something.

      BTW - the Trumpits are still working to oust WI's Republican Legislative leader. Robin Vos because he didn't throw out Biden victory in WI.

      1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

        You just said something moronic. Then again, it is a day ending in ‘y’.

        1. Z Crazy   9 months ago

          There doesn't seem to be a law against pressuring officials.

          1. Michael Ejercito   9 months ago

            Nor can pressuring officials be illegal.

            ooo

            Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

            oooo

            Emphasis added

            1. Ben of Houston   9 months ago

              That's what I don't get. Under the pretense that they are setting up for Trump, Lex Luthor could win the election and then brag from the mountaintops that he faked every last vote yet you could never prove it, bun in this case even asking congress to reject the vote would be treasonous.

  20. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

    Either way, the gist of the case is that Trump illegally sought to remain in office after he lost the 2020 election

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question

    1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

      Yeah, that seamless transition to the Biden administration was very insurrectiony.

      1. Z Crazy   9 months ago

        Their alleging perjury and forgery to install fake electors.

        Perjury and forgery are crimes.

        1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

          There were no ‘fake electors’. They were an alternate slate of electors that were ready to proceed if circumstances legitimately required it. There is plenty of precedent for that.

          Like everything else the democrats whine about Trump, this too is complete bullshit.

          1. Z Crazy   9 months ago

            That's what Trump and the defense says, of course.

            The prosecution says differently, saying that the forgery and p[erjury made the electors fake and not alternate.

            If only there was some way to determine who's right, like a way for people to say what they saw, heard, and smelt, and for physicial and documentory evidence to be presented, so someone could figure out if the underlying perjury and forgery were committed by the accused...

        2. Ben of Houston   9 months ago

          You mean following procedure explicitly in case their appeal succeeded?

          Because if the appeal was successful, those "fake" electors would have become the real ones.

          Being overconfident isn't a crime either

          1. Z Crazy   9 months ago

            Your not alowed to commit perjury or forgery.

            That's what's being alleged.

            1. Ben of Houston   9 months ago

              Except what was perjured and what was forged?
              Again, you are asserting things that simply aren't there.

              1. Z Crazy   9 months ago

                The prosecution is asserting these things.

                I don't know if they have the goods, but it seems that immunity shouldn't stop them from having a chance at presenting the goods.

                1. Jaydog   9 months ago

                  What was "forged"? Who committed "perjury"? Do you even know. Lol no you don't. And neither does Smith. Who has no standing to bring these chatges anyway. Cope.

  21. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

    that rightly worries Sotomayor.

    Because she's an idiot.

    1. Fire up the Woodchippers! (5-30 Banana Republic Day)   9 months ago

      Oh yes, “the wise Latina“………

      1. Rev Arthur L kuckland (5-30-24 banana republic day)   9 months ago

        You misspelled spick

  22. Z Crazy   9 months ago

    But Keenan suggested that they "may not succeed," because "the obstruction charge against him is based in part on the allegation that he organized slates of electors to certify false election results to Congress," which "may amount to impairing the integrity of the evidence used in the certification proceedings.

    This actually makes sense.

    Making false statements under oath, knowing the statements are false, is perjury.

    Making documents for the purpose of convincing others that the document was written by someone else is forgery.

    Taking overt actions in concert and participation with others to commit, or so that others could commit, perjury or forgery is conspiracy to commit perjury and forgery.

    I think these accusations should survive an immunity challege.

    1. Ben of Houston   9 months ago

      They probably wouldn't survive a factual challenge because none of that actually happened.

      Everything was above board and explicit. There was no deception. There was no question. These "fake electors" would have only stepped in should their challenges have been accepted

      Stating something repeatedly does not make it true. Because we knew this on day one. The only people who don't are people who pretend to not know what was explicit and obvious on that very same day.

      1. Ersatz   9 months ago

        But , but, but… TRUUUUUUUUMMMMMPPPPP!
        Dont take away their hope, their faith… their desperate longing to imprison their enemies!

        (these new guys are pathetic - Open Societies arent sending their best)

    2. JoeB   9 months ago

      Arguing a legal opinion which may be incorrect is neither perjury nor forgery.

    3. DaveM   9 months ago

      Don't be daft. We don't have pre-crimes yet. You'll have to wait for the Democrats to win first. /s

    4. EISTAU Gree-Vance   9 months ago

      “….. knowing the statements are false….”

      I think I spotted your problem, little buddy. Run along, now.

  23. MSmith   9 months ago

    For the few people still able to reason logically and aren't completely emotional in their responses, I'll offer this.
    The President & leader of the Executive branch has always had immunity, it's just now that the SC has ruled on just what form and extent it reaches. All you anti-Trumpers, where is your outrage about all the other immunity built into government? Every cop in the land has immunity. Every DA in the USA has immunity. Every Judge in the US has immunity. Every last one. So do you really think the leader of the Executive branch doesn't also have immunity?
    Now immunity isn't usually absolute. There have been cases where cops immunity has been set aside; usually a long difficult process, where someone has to prove the cop should have known he was doing something wrong because of already established case law On that Particular Crime. I've never read a story where a DA's immunity was set aside so they could be charged. And I've only read once that a judge's immunity was set aside so they could be charged.
    I could say much more; reading some of the responses about how this means Presidents could "abuse their power". So what? How is it different now that it was before the SC ruling? Presidents and other high ranking politicians have Always had a possibility of abusing their power. That's why (supposedly) we elect people of good character. I'd be a lot more worried about the cop down the street "accidentally" shooting you (or just repeatedly finding reasons to hassle you) over a personal grudge, in an "abuse of power".

  24. VinniUSMC (Banana Republic Day 5/30/24)   9 months ago

    When the Supreme Court endorsed broad presidential immunity from criminal charges

    Liar, liar, pants on fire.

    Sotomayor also noted other possible implications of the majority's position. When a president "uses his official powers in any way, under the majority's reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution," she warned. "Orders the Navy's Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune."

    Liar, liar, pants on fire.

  25. DaveM   9 months ago

    Twenty-first century personal injury lawyer argues with the top legal minds of the eighteenth, and says it's all about the vibes, man.

  26. JohnZ   9 months ago

    As long as scum such as fat Alvin Bragg, Letrashia Jogger and Jackoff Smith remain is such positions of authority, expect this garbage to continue until finally the SCOTUS says enough or until those three are no longer in such positions, which can't come soon enough.

    1. Rob Misek   9 months ago

      You can hope for that, wait for pigs to fly, or be defined by your actions and support the criminalization of lying.

      ALL corruption depends on lies and secrecy. Conspiracies by definition are when several people lie. Lying is coercion.

      The process of criminalizing lying will require the transparent definition of how we discern and define truth in society. It will be with correctly applied logic and science.

      This will COMPLETELY destabilize corruption like poisoning pests.

      I say AMEN to that.

  27. Jerry B.   9 months ago

    "As Justice Sonya Sotomayor noted in a dissent joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Ketanji Brown Jackson, that holding seems to give presidents a lot of leeway to wield the federal government's daunting prosecutorial powers against their political or personal enemies."

    See, for example, the Biden Administration.

    1. Johnathan Galt   9 months ago

      Yeah, except lawfare is not an official duty - so is exempt from the "immunity" ruling by SCOTUS.

  28. Johnathan Galt   9 months ago

    "When the Supreme Court endorsed broad presidential immunity from criminal charges last month, it raised troubling questions about whether and how former occupants of the White House can be held accountable for abusing their powers."

    Well, such issues are rather irrelevant when there is no abuse of power. TRUE abuses would most likely involve actions which do NOT comply with their official duties, but are done under the name of their official duties - nullifying the immunity SCOTUS described (yes, they did leave it open to prosecuting crimes committed in the name of "official duties").

    1. Vernon Depner   9 months ago

      crimes committed in the name of “official duties”

      Those are illegal by statute.

      https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/242

  29. AT   9 months ago

    baseless claims of systematic election fraud

    Clown World Jake gaslighting the audience again. Must be a day that ends in Y.

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