Supreme Court's Presidential Immunity Ruling Could Shield Outrageous Abuses of Power
By requiring "absolute" immunity for some "official acts" and "presumptive" immunity for others, the justices cast doubt on the viability of Donald Trump's election interference prosecution.

Challenging the federal prosecution stemming from his attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election, Donald Trump argued that former presidents can be prosecuted for "official acts" only if they are first impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate based on the same conduct. The Supreme Court today rejected that claim, which is based on an implausible reading of the constitutional text. At the same time, the Court held that a former president enjoys "absolute" immunity for "actions within his exclusive constitutional power," "presumptive" immunity for other "official acts," and no immunity for unofficial acts.
Since these distinctions require detailed, fact-specific analysis, the justices remanded the case to U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia to determine which parts of the election interference indictment can survive based on the Court's guidance. That decision probably means any trial in this case won't begin until after this year's presidential election. And depending on the outcome of that contest, the case may be dropped before it is resolved.
The Court's ruling in Trump v. United States is based on the concern that the threat of criminal charges is apt to have a chilling effect on a president's performance of his duties, especially when he makes controversial decisions that his political opponents might view as illegal. But in weighing the risks of presidential paralysis against the risks of presidential impunity, the ruling raises troubling questions about when and how a former occupant of the White House can be held criminally liable for abusing his powers.
"This case is the first criminal prosecution in our Nation's history of a former President for actions taken during his Presidency," Chief Justice John Roberts writes in the majority opinion, which was joined in full by four of his colleagues. "We are called upon to consider whether and under what circumstances such a prosecution may proceed. Doing so requires careful assessment of the scope of Presidential power under the Constitution. We undertake that responsibility conscious that we must not confuse 'the issue of a power's validity with the cause it is invoked to promote,' but must instead focus on the 'enduring consequences upon the balanced power structure of our Republic.'"
Both sides agreed that a former president can be prosecuted for "unofficial acts committed while in office," although they disagreed about which conduct described in the indictment fell into that category. Today's decision points toward resolution of that dispute but leaves many issues unresolved.
When Trump urged the Justice Department to investigate his baseless allegations of election fraud, Roberts says, he was exercising his "conclusive and preclusive" authority. The executive branch has "'exclusive authority and absolute discretion' to decide which crimes to investigate and prosecute," he writes, "including with respect to allegations of election crime."
The indictment also alleges that Trump "attempted to enlist" Vice President Mike Pence to "use his ceremonial role at the January 6 certification proceeding to fraudulently alter the election results." Trump wanted Pence to reject electoral votes for Joe Biden from several battleground states and send them back to state legislatures to consider whether he actually won them. When the president and the vice president "discuss their official responsibilities," Roberts says, "they engage in official conduct." The government therefore has to overcome a presumption of immunity, which means the district court must consider whether prosecuting Trump based on these conversations would impermissibly intrude on executive authority.
Other allegations involve Trump's interactions with state officials and private parties. Trump tried to persuade state officials that the election results had been tainted by systematic fraud, and his campaign enlisted "alternate" electors whom he wanted state legislators to recognize instead of the Biden slates.
Those actions, Trump maintained, were "official" because he was trying to ensure the integrity of a federal election. To the contrary, Special Counsel Jack Smith argued, Trump was trying to undermine the integrity of the election, and he did so in service of his interests as a political candidate, not as part of his presidential duties. According to the Supreme Court, the district court therefore must determine, as an initial matter, "whether Trump's conduct in this area qualifies as official or unofficial."
Finally, the indictment cites Trump's behavior on January 6, 2021, the day his supporters, inspired by his phony grievance, invaded the U.S. Capitol, interrupting the congressional tally of electoral votes. Trump's conduct that day consisted mainly of his speech at the pre-riot "Stop the Steal" rally and various tweets. Roberts notes that the president has "extraordinary power to speak to his fellow citizens and on their behalf." Generally speaking, his public communications therefore "are likely to fall comfortably within the outer perimeter of his official responsibilities." Whether Trump's communications counted as official acts, Roberts says, depends on the "content and context of each," requiring "factbound analysis" by the district court.
"Trump asserts a far broader immunity than the limited one we have recognized," Roberts writes. That claim was based on a counterintuitive reading of the Impeachment Judgments Clause, which says that when Congress impeaches and convicts a federal official, "the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law." Trump's lawyers said that means a former president can be prosecuted for abusing his powers only after he is impeached and removed for the same underlying conduct.
"The text of the Clause provides little support for such an absolute immunity," Roberts writes. "It states that an impeachment judgment 'shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States.' It then specifies that 'the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.' The Clause both limits the consequences of an impeachment judgment and clarifies that notwithstanding such judgment, subsequent prosecution may proceed. By its own terms, the Clause does not address whether and on what conduct a President may be prosecuted if he was never impeached and convicted."
Roberts adds that "historical evidence likewise lends little support to Trump's position." That evidence suggests the clause was aimed at resolving the question of whether prosecuting an impeached and removed president would qualify as double jeopardy.
"The implication of Trump's theory is that a President who evades impeachment for one reason or another during his term in office can never be held accountable for his criminal acts in the ordinary course of law," Roberts writes. "So if a President manages to conceal certain crimes throughout his Presidency, or if Congress is unable to muster the political will to impeach the President for his crimes, then they must forever remain impervious to prosecution." But "impeachment is a political process," and "transforming that political process into a necessary step in the enforcement of criminal law finds little support in the text of the Constitution or the structure of our Government."
The Court's decision nevertheless raises questions about whether a former president can be held criminally liable for outrageous abuses that arguably qualify as official acts. "The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world," Justice Sonia Sotomayor writes in a dissent joined by Justices Elena Kagan and Ketanji Brown Jackson. "When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority's reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy's Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune."
In addition to joining Sotomayor's opinion, Jackson filed a dissent that faults the majority for requiring a hazy immunity analysis while leaving crucial questions unanswered. "To the extent that the majority's new accountability paradigm allows Presidents to evade punishment for their criminal acts while in office, the seeds of absolute power for Presidents have been planted," she writes. "And, without a doubt, absolute power corrupts absolutely….The Court has now declared for the first time in history that the most powerful official in the United States can (under circumstances yet to be fully determined) become a law unto himself."
Roberts complains that the dissents "strike a tone of chilling doom that is wholly disproportionate to what the Court actually does today—conclude that immunity extends to official discussions between the President and his Attorney General, and then remand to the lower courts to determine 'in the first instance' whether and to what extent Trump's remaining alleged conduct is entitled to immunity." Recognizing that the Constitution gives the president "sweeping powers and duties" does not "place him above the law," he argues. "It preserves the basic structure of the Constitution from which that law derives."
The dissenters' objections "boil down to ignoring the Constitution's separation of powers and the Court's precedent and instead fear mongering on the basis of extreme hypotheticals about a future where the President 'feels empowered to violate federal criminal law,'" Roberts says. Yet those "extreme hypotheticals" are surely worth considering.
The majority says Trump cannot be prosecuted for urging the Justice Department to embrace his stolen-election fantasy because such conversations fell within his "conclusive and preclusive" authority to enforce federal law. But the president is also commander-in-chief of the armed forces, which suggests that orders to the military, whether they involve assassination or a coup, likewise trigger absolute immunity. The president has plenary authority to issue pardons, which suggests impeachment might be the only remedy if he takes a bribe in exchange for granting one.
That remedy, as Roberts notes in rejecting Trump's interpretation of the Impeachment Judgments Clause, could be foreclosed by timing or a lack of political will. If a president abuses his powers toward the end of his term (as happened in this case), resigns immediately afterward, or conceals his crimes well enough that they do not come to light until after he has left office, impeachment will not be a viable option, and his prosecution could be blocked by "absolute" or "presumptive" immunity, leaving no way to hold him accountable.
Roberts glides over such possibilities, focusing instead on the threat to presidential authority that allowing prosecution for "official acts" could pose. One of the charges against Trump, for example, alleges that he defrauded the United States, which is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison under 18 USC 371. Section 371, Roberts notes, "is a broadly worded criminal statute" that can cover "any conspiracy for the purpose of impairing, obstructing or defeating the lawful function of any department of Government." Since "virtually every President is criticized for insufficiently enforcing some aspect of federal law," he says, "an enterprising prosecutor in a new administration may assert that a previous President violated that broad statute."
Without immunity, such prosecutions of former presidents "could quickly become routine," Roberts worries. "The enfeebling of the Presidency and our Government that would result from such a cycle of factional strife is exactly what the Framers intended to avoid. Ignoring those risks, the dissents are instead content to leave the preservation of our system of separated powers up to the good faith of prosecutors."
In a partial concurrence, Justice Amy Coney Barrett says most of Roberts' opinion "is consistent with my view that the Constitution prohibits Congress from criminalizing a President's exercise of core Article II powers and closely related conduct." But "properly conceived," she says, "the President's constitutional protection from prosecution is narrow."
Barrett worries that "the Court leaves open the possibility that the Constitution forbids prosecuting the President for any official conduct." Although "I agree that a President cannot be held criminally liable for conduct within his 'conclusive and preclusive' authority and closely related acts," she writes, "the Constitution does not vest every exercise of executive power in the President's sole discretion. Congress has concurrent authority over many Government functions, and it may sometimes use that authority to regulate the President's official conduct, including by criminal statute. Article II poses no barrier to prosecution in such cases."
Barrett favors a two-step analysis that asks first "whether the statute applies and then whether its application to the particular facts is constitutional." For example, Barrett says, "the indictment alleges that the President 'asked the Arizona House Speaker to call the legislature into session to hold a hearing' about election fraud claims. The President has no authority over state legislatures or their leadership, so it is hard to see how prosecuting him for crimes committed when dealing with the Arizona House Speaker would unconstitutionally intrude on executive power."
Barrett disagrees with the majority's holding that "the Constitution limits the introduction of protected conduct as evidence in a criminal prosecution of a President, beyond the limits afforded by executive privilege." In a bribery case, for example, the official act that a president allegedly performed in exchange for money would be clearly relevant in establishing his guilt. "Excluding from trial any mention of the official act connected to the bribe would hamstring the prosecution," Barrett writes. "To make sense of charges alleging a quid pro quo, the jury must be allowed to hear about both the quid and the quo, even if the quo, standing alone, could not be a basis for the President's criminal liability."
In response, Roberts says "the prosecutor may point to the public record to show the fact that the President performed the official act" and may submit "evidence of what the President allegedly demanded, received, accepted, or agreed to receive or accept in return for being influenced in the performance of the act." But the prosecutor may not offer "testimony or private records of the President or his advisers probing the official act itself."
The Constitution "does not insulate Presidents from criminal liability for official acts," Barrett writes. "But any statute regulating the exercise of executive power is subject to a constitutional challenge. A criminal statute is no exception. Thus, a President facing prosecution may challenge the constitutionality of a criminal statute as applied to official acts alleged in the indictment. If that challenge fails, however, he must stand trial."
In this case, that prospect seems quite unlikely. The presidential election is in four months, and right now Trump seems poised to win it. If that happens, he surely will find a way to make the case disappear.
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The dissent’s whine that the President can’t be punished for ordering assassinations is hogwash; maybe they have been lulled by Pelosi’s impeachments into thinking impeachment is only meant for trivialities, but that is not so. The President can always be impeached. They should thank their lucky stars that if Trump wins, he won’t be able to prosecute Biden. But Hillary is fair game.
It seems to me, from my IANAL point of view, that defining impeachment yanks criminal prosecution off the table, since that would be double jeopardy. Or at least it can be read that way. But the Supreme Court doesn’t mind state-federal double jeopardy, and I read somewhere that throwing in Indian prosecutions makes for a perfectly cromulent triple jeopardy, so who knows.
It seems to me, from my IANAL point of view, that defining impeachment yanks criminal prosecution off the table, since that would be double jeopardy
IANAL either but this is clear. The relevant phrase is “No person shall . . . be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb” – and being removed from office doesn’t involve jeopardy to either. But you’re right about double/triple jeopardy across multiple sovereigns. BTW look up People v Aleman, for a splendid exception to double jeopardy.
Yeah, the constitution mentions double jeopardy, but since when does anyone pay attention to the constitution? Courts have established that, if a person is found not guilty of a crime in state court, they can just go ahead and prosecute them for the same crime in federal court.
Our courts are just more politics, and they are the one who have the power to take political prisoners. Add to that, the ABA is, in reality, a coconspirator of the democratic party. I trust them exactly not at all.
https://x.com/AlexsandrKislov/status/1807891434789351699?t=8_R_Ig3AtiBjIWQfhKBkFQ&s=19
The fact that Hitler (and never Stalin) and Fascism (and never Communism) are always cited (even by conservatives) as evil and totalitarianism incarnate is a mark of how thoroughly the left has indoctrinated nearly everyone in our society.
Nazism as anything other than cosplay has not existed since 1945. Being a “nazi” is a one-way trip to being unpersoned.
Meanwhile, actual communists hold prestigious jobs, communism is still a governing force in a few nations, and gay race communism is the ethos of our regime.
And Nazi is short for National Socialist German Worker’s Party… It was just another leftist party, but they didn’t want to lose national identity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td2Bk8qQJZE
A doctor of bullshit here.
The Constitution directly addresses the question of double jeopardy after an impeachment:
“the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.”
Article 1, Section 3, Clause 7.
Yes, in the context of impeachment. Absent the impeachment, he can’t be indicted and prosecuted.
As I said, IANAL and it looks like a plausible interpretation.
What this quibbling really shows is that constitution isn’t nearly as well-written as people like to claim.
What this quibbling really shows is that constitution isn’t nearly as well-written as people like to claim.
What it shows is that the Constitution IS well written and it annoys the left when they cannot simply thwart it.
What is shows is there are holes in the Constitution where the Founders never considered the full scope of bad actors. Example: McConnell not holding hearings to confirm or reject Garland. If there was legitimate cause, they should have rejected him in open process; but there was no reason that wasn’t partisan hackery … so McConnell just … didn’t do anything. The Founding Fathers likely never considered the Senate would ever just “not” do it’s job. Reject or confirm, yes … but to just not do anything at all … just for political spite ?
You won’t find a lot of people around here that disagree that McConnell is a jerkoff, although their reasons for saying so might be different.
“McConnell not holding hearings to confirm or reject Garland. If there was legitimate cause, they should have rejected him in open process; but there was no reason that wasn’t partisan hackery … so McConnell just … didn’t do anything. ”
After seeing his reign of evil and terror in the DoJ, thanks be to God that Nazi thug did not become a SCJ.
The constitution is clear. Congress decides its own rules. Congress, namely the senate, must provide consent. What is unclear dummy?
Nothing’s unclear. That’s Belle’s shtick here, is all.
We all know that kind of buttfuckery was super common with the folks who created the Constitution. Here’s just one example (first google hit) https://www.americanhistorycentral.com/entries/midnight-judges-judiciary-act-1801/
Maybe the Democrats shouldn’t have nuked the process, thinking they would always maintain power.
Blocking Garland was one of the few good things that McConnell ever did.
But Hillary is fair game.
Prosecuting your political opposition? That crosses a line.
That line has a one way sign sir.
Exactly. If one side throws punches and the other only blocks, it is a forgone conclusion who will win the fight.
“She’s such a bitch that it would be impossible to find a fair jury” – Special Counsel Robert Hur
Ha!
😉
The Trump crowd do not believe that their Messiah should have any checks or balances.
We are Italy 1921 right now.
I want so much for you paranoids to get your wish.
No one wished for this. MAGAts like to think that the court made a wise decision. If you can’t see that granting a president the ability to commit crimes under the auspices of “official acts” (as is every order single to the military and every single executive order) that would land others on death row you do not understand the meaning of the name of this publication.
In the short term, this is good for Trump. In the long term, this is terrible for the country. It’s as bad as it gets. Law doesn’t matter as long as the President remembers to couch it as an official act. Even if it turns out that an order is patently illegal, if it is given to the military, it has to be obeyed. Not following a legal order might get a soldier a dishonorable discharge, but not following an illegal one can now get him a dishonorable discharge if the President wants. Further, if the President gives an unquestionably illegal order, not only can he punish a soldier for not following it, but he cannot be tried or convicted after he leaves office.
I know MAGAts like to make all kinds of excuses for why Trump’s refusal to return stolen top secret military documents. But now you no longer have to make up excuses. You don’t have to pretend he didn’t break the law or that he didn’t violate his oath of office and Americans’ trust. You can admit it. He still won’t be prosecuted for it. If Obama was raping an eating babies at COmet Ping Pong, while in office, all he has to do is claim it was in the nations’ interest for him to be high on adenochrome, and it’s perfectly fine. Hew actually *could* have spied on Trump’s campaign and if in his own mind it was done to protect America, it’s fine. This is a terrible decision. Period. Not for Republicans or Democrats. For America. Now tell me more about activist judges on the left….
lol. There’s been a literal cultural Marxist full court press to control or nullify every institution public or private, and to weaponize every level of government. Even the judiciary.
And THIS is what suddenly makes you stand up, take notice and suddenly care about “rights” and “liberties”? I am incredulous. This is my incredulous face.
Democrats behave more like the Italian fascist state than Trump ever did dummy.
Brainwashed foo.
Your messiah didn’t have any! – chocolate Jesus just sailed thru his terms without a smidgen of pushback from the deep-state, the R’s the culture curators… anyone. Whats good for the goose, right
But then, to oppose your messiah one would be cast out of heaven as a racist heathen.
Obama literally assassinated an American citizen without due process.
For those unfamiliar with history, President Obama’s Attorney General, Eric Holder, made a similar argument about presidential immunity that was never contradicted in court or Congress.
When it was revealed that a drone strike (execution) was authorized and undertaken against a US citizen (Anwar al-Aulaqi) on the order of President Obama, without a trial or any “official” finding of guilt that is normally required before executing a US citizen, Eric Holder provided a letter to Congress arguing that yes, the President could order a drone strike against a US citizen, on US soil, based on just the President’s determination that it was necessary.
https://youtu.be/zDacKeX9upo?si=rsIXMyU_p9ndYGrP
This is not a political party issue, this is a power issue. As George Carlin said years ago, “Power does what it wants.”
Cope and seethe harder.
Yes, to marxists, anyone who resists their dumb political theology is a fascist.
“The Trump crowd do not believe that their Messiah should have any checks or balances.”
You.
Are.
Full.
Of.
Shit.
Impeachment has no consequences beyond losing your job. It’s largely a process to throw the actions outside the official acts for normal litigation. It is no more double jeopardy than losing your job for embezzling through fraudulent business receipts doesn’t shield you from criminal prosecution for the same.
Nope, impeachment and conviction have serious consquences for the impeached and convicted party. You might want to check the Constitution again. Or, more likely, actually read it for the first time.
SJ is right, impeachment/conviction is just a complicated way of saying “you’re fired”. It is not a substitute for a criminal trial.
“Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of hono” US Constitution, Art. 1 Sec 3
One of the purposes of impeachment is to specifically remove immunity.
This. Democrats failed there so they wanted to bypass that step.
No. It is to forestall bullshit claims of immunity. You can’t remove something that doesn’t exist in the first place.
You’ve been overruled.
Why is it that lefty shits claim handles opposite of their positions? This steaming pile of lefty shit is a ‘radical individualist’ like Morning Joe has an ability to separate himself from the narrative.
FOAD, asshole.
Right, which is perfectly in line with removing those actions from official acts.
The President could have terrorists raided and killed in the ensuing gunfight but a political rival, not so much despite the FBI and Mar a Lago best attempt.
The dissent’s whine that the President can’t be punished for ordering assassinations is hogwash
Obama administration is holding on line 2. I’m not sure what they want, but there was a lot of laughing in the background.
“Could”, meaning we don’t know.
“Outrageous Abuse”. Does that mean every day abuses are ok?
I would prefer the President be immune from some of the convoluted theories used to accuse Trump than the other way around.
What happens when the FBI, Justice Dpmt. etc gets a bug up their ass and badgers a President until he can’t do his job?
I think they are more circumspect about where they place their bugs for optimal effectiveness. *(They wont be able to spy on Trump as well as they did before if the bugs are up their own asses.)
The immediate beneficiary of this ruling isn’t Trump, it’s President Biden. Trump wanted it as a defense, but Biden can also use it for an offense to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution (from Trump and also those who concurred in this outrageous opinion). He would be right to declare that this nation is due for a purge,, in fact begging and asking for it.. I’m shocked the justices didn’t realize, as tte appellate court judges certainly did, they may have just signed their own death warrant, as well as Trump’s. Bad idea, but hopefully Biden has enough integrity to wield this new executive power in a way that leads to its immediate undoing.
Yes. We’ve all seen you deranged leftists all over twitter. Doesn’t make it reality.
Good. Glad you agree this political polarization needs to be taken to Israel/Hamas levels. Nothing would signal “open season on the left” quicker than what you’re declaring, so I hope you follow through.
Never considered myself left or right, democrat or republican. It’s you who is politicizing instead of conceding and acknowledging that we now have a King Biden. He may be a humble and benevolent king for now, but he has advisers and lawyers, and he need not remain that way if the prospects for him or the nation (in his sole judgment) turn sour. Beware – absolute power corrupts absolutely!
Yeah, your side likes to deflect with this faux, “I’m not left or right, I’m an independent.”
Stop lying. You’re a leftist, and literally nothing you’re spouting needs to be taken at face value. “King Biden” is a fucking mush-brained, mush-mouthed puppet. And this is immaterial, anyway, because none of the complaints about this decision are actually about the decision, it’s simply fear that the right is going to give the left a taste of its own medicine.
Projecting Troll is projecting?
That is one braindead response to the ruling and this article. You’ve clearly had your cognitive ability damaged by becoming a MAGAt.
Since your side is wanking itself off over the assassination question, I’ll just say I sincerely hope that you follow through on it. There’s nothing that would let us off the chain quicker than the left using this ruling as an excuse to dome Trump.
Seriously, I dare you fucks to try it.
More or less outrageous than using lawfare to go after political opponents? Ignoring the equal protection laws?
The case also utilizes the facts at the time, not future horrible outcomes.
I get it. The left is freaking out their D.C. case is crumbling the last 2 weeks. So you have to freak out as well.
The executive office has been involved in investigating elections for decades. It is a normal duty of the branch. But we must forget Reason wanted a return to normalcy and now supports a pursuance of a banana republic.
There’s nothing normal about the President of the US calling local election officials.
Absent some federal law giving him the power to investigate in this manner, I think the prosecution should be allowed to make the case that this was an unofficial act.
But that’s a finding of fact, and the kind of thing that trial courts do. Not SCOTUS.
Show your work for that first claim. How do you know no President or how cronies have ever contacted election officials. Mayhaps it only came to light because the Dems hate Trump so much.
“When did you stop beating your wife, sir?”
“Could”, meaning we don’t know.
“Outrageous Abuse”. Does that mean every day abuses are ok?
I would prefer the President be immune from some of the convoluted theories used to accuse Trump than the other way around.
What happens when the FBI, Justice Dpmt. etc gets a bug up their ass and badgers a President until he can’t do his job?
I see the concept of “false equivalence” is a mystery to you.
Is the DoJ part of the executive branch? Yes or no? Do politicians petition courts and officials? Yes or no. Gore was often in communication with Florida officials in 2000. Obama and Clinton met with many state officials. Were those meetings illegal?
Pointing out avenues of election fraud as that call did, the transcript is public and was even illegally recorded, was discussing fraudulent votes. The same types of votes, wrong locations, that multiple courts have now said are illegal votes in multiple jurisdictions.
I like how some of you pretend the president is separate from the executive branch. We get it. Support unelected officials.
Absent some federal law giving him the power to investigate in this manner, I think the prosecution should be allowed to make the case that this was an unofficial act.
And this is just ignorance to how the law works. He is head of the executive. The law does not specify only subordinates can coordinate issues of law. Presidents often work and direct the DoJ. The white house council, reportable directly to the president, has worked with multiple prosecutors during this lawfare including state prosecutors. What you believe the statutory makeup of the law is is entirely false.
Your interpretation of law would make every presidential EO invalid for fucks sake lol. When Joe signed an EO ordering each executive office to register voters did he violate the law?
Is this illegal?
https://www.nga.org/news/press-releases/nations-governors-meet-with-president-biden/
Was “Gore” in communication with Florida state or local (election) officials?
Yes.
Gore was often in communication with Florida officials in 2000.
Sure, in his role as a CANDIDATE, not in his role as Vice-President.
the president is separate from the executive branch.
They are separate. The president is a person. The executive branch is an institution. We don’t have kings in this country.
And how, precisely, are you drawing the line to demonstrate that Gore was in communication as a candidate, not a government official but Trump was in communication not as a candidate? The distinction you are attempting to draw is unworkable.
If Trump was in communication with them as a candidate it’s not an official act of a President. Gore was criminally liable for his contacts with state and local election officials. Unlike Trump, he wasn’t threatening them with criminal prosecution if they didn’t find him enough votes.
Trump is claiming immunity because his communications were those of a President, not a candidate. So it’s Trump saying he was “in communication not as a candidate.” The distinction you’re trying to wave away is clear.
Trump never threatened jail time dumbass.
Every campaign talks to election officials. The DoJ is in constant communication. The dems brag about this communication. Both the president and DoJ are part of the executive branch.
Do you democrats just intentionally act retarded?
It’s a feature, not a bug.
Cognitive dissonance is definitely a trait Democrats cultivate.
‘Act’?
How do you figure Gore was criminally liable?
The president is a part of the executive branch.
No, we don’t have kings, and this ruling didn’t make it so.
How is asking a state official to investigate an election, or anything else for that matter, a crime? Did he threaten to have them thrown in the gulag? Federal authorities work with state authorities on investigations every fucking day. We have evidence that the Biden administration worked directly with state AGs in NY and GA to investigate Trump. Will the DOJ indict itself? To claim that Trump committed a crime by contacting state officials is Sullum level TDS. Somehow Jacob knew for a fact in November 2020 that the election was free fair and without a hint of corruption. Polling shows that a majority of the population including Democrats don’t believe that. To this day.
How do you know what previous Presidents have done. You have no evidence this hasn’t happened in the past. Plus, when has a phone call become illegal?
There’s nothing normal about extraconstitutional changes to voting laws right before an election. Several states, including Pennsylvania, changed their voting rules without following their constitutional process.
Investigating, yes.
Trying to overturn and install himself as an unelected president, no.
It’s good the second thing didn’t happen.
He tried. Even SCOTUS admits that.
Wrong. And wrong.
He left Jan 20th like every other president.
Not willingly. By then his coup had failed.
Lol. Keep being retarded.
Not retarded – just a dishonest gaslighting shill.
Implying ‘retarded’ bestows the benefit of the doubt. At this stage there is no doubt.
You mean he wanted a crooked election investigated? Yes. Beyond that you’re a liar.
It wasn’t crooked at all. The Republican ex-Governor of Wisconsin said so. The Republican Secretary of State of Georgia said so. And Rudy Giuliani even admitted so before a judge. (Amazing what the possibility of disbarment and a perjury prosecution does to get people to admit the truth.)
I love how you pretend refusing to investigate clear evidence that courts have since 2020 issued rulings against always amuses me.
It did, in democrat fan fiction. But in reality? No…….
The true lawfare guy is Trump, whose underpaid (when paid at all) lawyers use scorched earth tactics to delay, delay, delay. Only Letitia James and Alvin Bragg have managed to bring down the organized crime leader. Yeah, one was a civil suit and the other was a relatively minor documents fraud case (multiplied 34 times) but remember that Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion, Lucky Luciano for prostitution, and Meyer Lansky for gambling. You get organized crime czars for whatever you can pin on them that sticks.
Trump’s lawyers putting up a vigorous defense and filing motions when he’s accused of crimes is somehow lawfare?
https://x.com/libsoftiktok/status/1807917654826418402?t=56afQQLnyFZ2AlC43KY2zQ&s=19
BREAKING: Police in St Petersburg, FL have arrested 18-year-old Christian Maier on charges of felony criminal mischief for doing donuts on the pride mural painted in middle of the road
It’s going to take someone with a can of paint literally painting “This is speech.” on one of these murals before they get it. And, even then, I give them a 50/50 on them felony prosecuting anyway, using it as a flex, oblivious to the message it sends to normies and other traditionally counter-cultural people like graffiti artists, or just regular artists, about who the actual “The Man” who holds them down is.
Why won’t he just submit to the state like a good peon?
LOL, please. It’s one thing you center-right faggots are experts at, it’s licking establishment shoe leather.
If one doesn’t focus on the specific facts at issue, nor the specific defendant, consider the general position: the Court finds an immunity for the president that is nowhere to be found in the actual text of the Constitution, nor in any original intent. Fair enough – just don’t pretend that the court isn’t activist.
One could claim separation of powers precludes justice from prosecution the president from doing his job.
One could claim that, for sure, but there is no logical extension from “separation of powers” (a term not to be found in the Constitution, fwiw) to “the president can’t be prosecuted”. The Justice Department’s position, while practical, is not supported by anything in the Constitution.
Yes, the three far left members of the court are indeed activist. The others sometimes will rule correctly based on the constitution. But not enough. Largely due to their concerns about being disliked by their social peers in DC.
Do Trump’s Deranged Supporters understand that giving him total immunity means giving total immunity to the other team’s presidents as well?
Me today, you tomorrow.
Except they didn’t give total immunity. They directed the District Court to differentiate between Constitutional powers, Official Acts, and Unofficial (personal) acts.
I’m not sure how it could be otherwise. Presidents are tasked with doing a lot of bad shit in our name. We don’t hold them personally accountable for these things.
Bubba, it’s Sarc you’re talking to. Anything other than complete condemnation of Trump in this case equals total immunity.
Are they tasked with committing crimes to benefit themselves while using the powers of their office to further those crimes?
The Court would be quite capable of revising their decision when another president is involved – Thomas would happily write the opinion explaining what parts of Trump were wrongly decided and he is after all a known opponent of stare decisis.
More leftist pablum and fear mongering. Lol.
More facts. Facts have a liberal bias.
But not a lelftist bias. Which is what you’re all about.
You retards are still repeating a line from a comedian made 20 years ago. Full on retards.
Hahahahahahaha
No they don’t.
Neither leftist nor pablum. Thomas’s hostility to stare decisis is well-documented. Plus what is fear-mongering about suggesting that this authoritarian decision – which of course you approve of – might later be overturned at least in part?
There’s nothing authoritarian about it. The left hates it, and anything they hate is “authoritarian.”
There’s absolutely no reason to take any of their attempts at legal wankery here at face value, and if they actually try to follow through on their hypotheticals to make them reality, it’s open season on them, in the most literal sense, from that point forward.
There’s nothing authoritarian about it
Of course there is, fuckwit, because you’re placing the Executive above the law.
Only in official acts.
Yes. So? The president is above the law when officially acting as president.. Better now?
The president’s always been able to do this, fuckwit. That you’re complaining that the Supreme Court simply confirmed this is nothing more than kayfabe.
Why is this idea controversial, in your mind? That’s literally been the de facto state of affairs for nearly 250 years.
Shrike, quit making shit up.
He didnt get total immunity retard. Only official acts. Way to be ignorant yet again.
Lock him up. Lock him up. – the one true libertarian
I should point out the biggest irony as those you hate here have been saying we want equal application of the law from day 1. So yes. That’s what we want. Equal application of law. Unlike you and shrike.
So you think the convoluted and twisted arguments made by Justice, the illegal promotion of the special prosecutor and the untoward and unabashed efforts of the Democratic Party to convict trump is “equal protection”? You know he is not being charged for inciting an insurrection, right?
Do you want to try that with an intelligent response?
Classified documents. See Biden, Obama, Pence, others.
Incitement, he didnt incite shit. I made this clear in a different post and is a 1a issue. The obstruction charge was refuted by the USSC last week.
Any other dumb questions?
How did those others respond to finding classified documents? Did they return them or did they retain them and get their lawyer to lie about it? You Trumpists are so transparently dishonest with your attempts at equating very different actions.
Trump had a legal basis to retain documents as he had ultimate declassification authority. As did Obama, or any other president. None of which applies to Biden prior to January 2021, Pence, Hillary Clinton or any other non president. Biden had documents going back DECADES. He has no cover and it means fuck all that he decided to give them back.
So try again Shrike.
Speaking as a TDS, I think Obama is probably breathing a sigh of relief that he is now immune from prosecution for his drone killing of a 16 year old American citizen.
The article raised up the hypothetical of that happening on American soil, while the drone strike you’re talking about did not. I’m not defending Obama here. Just saying they’re not equivalent.
So the president can drone strike random American tourists in foreign countries and you see that as fine? Fucking clown.
Do you read comments before replying or just type random stupid shit, Jesse Jr?
You said something completely retarded lol.
Let’s keep it mature – As Scott Adams says, the minute you resort to name calling you’ve lost.
He’s talking to sarc.
Who the fuck are you? Sarc has a long history of being retarded here.
And I don’t let people define my baseline to control or set parameters of an argument. See Hoppes rational argumentation essay.
Do you understand that Hoppe is not the patron saint of libertarianism? That lots of other libertarians disagree with him for lots of very good reasons?
Do you understand that you and Drunky are repugnant pieces of shit that are thoroughly discredited and hated as known liars and Marxist trolls?
Now fuck off Pedo Jeffy.
The fact that anyone is “debating” leftists at this point reveals they’re still not ready to accept reality.
Better to just get rid of them.
Our language is very mature.
So your belief is Americans can kill anyone not on American soil? No issue?
Worked for Obama.
So you would have prosecuted Lincoln for killing hundreds of thousands of US citizens during the American Civil War.
That Islamist terrorist Obama ordered killed was no different.
You’re an idiot.
Start with the fact that the Civil War was an officially declared war and Lincoln was acting as Commander in Chief and y comparison becomes truly idiotic.
I wonder if Biden will claim Presidential immunity for his money laundering operations?
If Trump were to get what he and his deranged supporters want, and receive total immunity for everything he did while in office, then there’s no limit to what Biden or any other future Democratic president could do while in office.
But his deranged supporters are too emotional and shortsighted to realize or care.
How about removing the veil of TDS from your face first, then going for analysis?
Try not being emotional and shortsighted, then you won’t take the word “deranged” personally.
Projection.
Pour Sarc.
Yes, pour Sarc.
“Try not being emotional and shortsighted”
Ahahahahahaha, hahahahaha… this from Maine’s angriest drunken leprechaun… hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha … oh, the hypocrisy, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha…. whew!
You’ve been corrected twice already on official vs unofficial acts yet you persist. Way to go buddy.
Unconstitutional student loan forgiveness protected. Money laundering not.
The courts have not been objecting to Biden’s more limited student loan forgiveness programs.
He just had 2 more injunctions today dumbass.
Do you get paid by the spit bubble you make while typing?
You democrats are lawless filth. Time to get rid of you.
None of this would have happened without your “Novel” interpretations of the law.
Suck it up.
I know you are that stupid right? Total immunity. It’s been pointed out on numerous occasions that this ruling does not grant total immunity.
Charlie isn’t the brightest bulb in the pack.
Well he threatened to withhold a billion dollars from Ukraine if they didn’t fire a prosecutor who was investigating Hunter in his official capacity as VP. Bullet dodged.
VP had no power to withhold money. He threatened to call Obama to do the quid pro quo. So conspiracy to bribe.
Was Obama prosecuted for ordering the murder of an American citizen in Pakistan? Did anyone think there was any chance in hell he would have been? The longstanding assumption has been exactly what the Court decided. Otherwise, pretty much every president in my lifetime would be in prison.
I doubt I’m the only person not willing to go along with “The law doesn’t exist….Trump must be prosecuted under the law we said doesn’t exist….the law doesn’t exist again.”
“”pretty much every president in my lifetime would be in prison.””
Your lifetime, your dad’s lifetime, your dad’s dad’s lifetime, and probably your dad’s dads’s dad’s lifetime too.
I wonder about Ford. I doubt he got let in on very much. I mean it’s still a “probably,” but he would be the only possible exception.
I’m thinking Silent Cal might have done alright.
biden is safe from prosecution no matter what, because his entire presidency has been conducted in a demented state. An interesting hypothetical though, to insert dementia as the district in which the crime shall have been committed, into the Sixth Amendment. (Though I still think the words “except the District of Columbia” should go in there.)
This is incoherent: “dementia as the district in which the crime shall have been committed”. That clause refers to court districts, and simply requires holding the trial near the location of the crime or the defendant’s home, rather than allowing the federal government to handicap defendants by arbitrarily moving the trial across country.
The real issue about dementia is that the courts have determined that the defendant in a criminal trial must be mentally capable of “assisting the defense.” As I understand this, if the defendant is unable to understand what is going on or unable to communicate with his lawyers, he cannot be tried for a crime. He does not have to be functioning at a high level, and I’ve known several people with mental handicaps too severe to hold a job that would be ruled competent to stand trial, but it’s necessary to see things happening around oneself, distinguish reality from hallucinations, and make oneself understood in some way (voice, writing, sign language, maybe even arranging blocks like a trained chimpanzee once learned).
This does not apply to civil suits, and it is unrelated to the defendant’s sanity when the crime was committed. E.g., Joe Biden was not legally impaired in 2016 and earlier when he stole classified documents and stored them in the trunk of Hunter’s car, but now, although it seems quite clear that he committed some pretty serious crimes, he cannot be punished for them unless they can show that he can understand the legal proceedings and talk to his lawyers about them, all the way through a trial. OTOH, proceedings to commit him to a mental institution and to appoint a guardian for him are civil suits and can go ahead even though he is unable to participate. And someone who was injured by Biden’s crimes could sue for his money in compensation through his financial guardian.
I don’t see this right to assist one’s defense explicitly in the Constitution, but it might be seen as implied by the combination of rights listed explicitly in the 6th Amendment. For instance, can a drooling idiot confront the witnesses against him? Cross-examination of a witness will be much more productive if the defendant can tell his lawyer which parts of the testimony are lies, and what really happened. Presenting evidence for the defense goes better when the defendant can point his lawyer to defense witnesses and exculpatory documents. At the simplest level, imagine a man charged with stealing a car telling his lawyer where to find the bill of sale to prove he bought it – but I doubt Biden could remember such facts.
It does not grant total immunity. Immunity may be removed for a spe ific act by impeachment and conviction. It is telling g that the Left does not think impeachment is a check on the executive.
I believe that most of Trump’s actions were not official, and even those that were, may not survive scrutiny even if given the presumption of immunity.
But to use the Seal Team 6 analogy, does Obama not have immunity for ordering drone strikes against American citizens?
Is Sotomayor suggesting that Obama should be open to prosecution for murder?
Oh, well it’s different when the target is a political opponent? Who would decide when it’s different?
I’m not sure how you hang your argument around the fictional assassination of the political opponent without addressing the known examples of POTUS ordering “kinetic actions.”
But to use the Seal Team 6 analogy, does Obama not have immunity for ordering drone strikes against American citizens?
Is Sotomayor suggesting that Obama should be open to prosecution for murder?
You say this like it wasn’t pointed out, at the time, that if Russians stole the 2016 election, they stole it from the Obama Administration… and we *still* wound up investigating and prosecuting our way through the Trump campaign/administration.
D.c. case – mostly 1A and incitement with the primary charge of obstruction ruled against last week. So Jack Smith will have to prove knowing incitement for more than obstruction. Good luck.
Ga electors case: official duty immunity. Executive branch has a long history of investigating state election fraud. Bidens DoJ has even investigated. It falls under the official acts umbrella discussed with Nixon.
Classified docs case is only remaining case and covered by many defenses from alteration of evidence, equal protections, illegal appointment of Jack Smith.
Democrats are desperate as seen by the posting above.
Smith has already said that the J6 ruling doesn’t apply in his Trump prosecution because the alternate “fake” electors involve documents that satisfy the statute. An unbiased judge would probably tell him to hit the road but it’s Chutkan so …
Hawaii 1960. Two sets of electors to satiate constitutional dates as required while cases move through the courts. Cases were still active on those dates when submitted.
Well sure nothing new or scary about alternate electors. But these are fake electors. See the difference? Yeah me neither.
I can see the (D)ifference…
Is he alleging the documents were forged?
Smiths claim is submitting even an unsigned electors form is a forgery. They never forged any signatures.
That is quite an argument.
He is not even arguing that they tried to forge the sigs but just ran out of ink?
Someone mentioned fair treatment under the law earlier. Is it fair for a justice department to take a statute developed for a completely different reason and twist is so much so they prosecute someone? Interfering with an official act had to do with destroying or altering documents because of Enron’s malfeasance. People are in jail because of that twisted thinking.
No. Laws are required to be clear and concise as well as consistently executed. The entire novel creation aspect is unfortunately an allowed procedure as well as prosecutorial deference on choosing who to charge. Both need to be ended.
If a criminal law is unclear it should be struck down.
Of a criminal law is intermittently executed it should be struck down.
Very well put. JesseAz (5-30 Banana Republic Day) for President!
^+1
“Selective” enforcement is a tell of corruption.
Some of the accusation in the Georgia case were accusations of forgery and perjury.
The forgery never happened. The electors form was never signed by the governor, they never faked a signature. The claim is filling out a form with names was forgery. Even when the signatures are left off.
Wow.
Not even claiming they tried to forge the signatures, but just ran out of ink?
Didn’t Biden allude to using F-16’s to counter rebellion in the US?
The only effective anti-personnel weapons I think it could carry would be cluster bombs.
Nice.
So naive. Do you really think they haven’t kept a stock of napalm somewhere.
‘By requiring “absolute” immunity for some “official acts” and “presumptive” immunity for others, the justices cast doubt on the viability of Donald Trump’s election interference prosecution.’
OMG! Super bad!
Judging the impact of SCOTUS decisions based on how they affect prosecuting Trump? What stage TDS is that?
Do you think that the SC majority didn’t take into account both the actual appellant and the forthcoming election when deciding?
What other presidents have had political charges thrown their way to lock them up? I like how you guys are defending the actions pursued by the left.
I am not defending the left. I am attacking the partisan right-wing court which went against their own principles in deciding in favour of Trump. And, as I’ve often noted, there is an alternative explanation for why Trump is being prosecuted than “the left is out to get him”.
But no attack on that partisan jury in Manhattan?
Because he’s defending the left.
“Do you think that the SC majority didn’t take into account both the actual appellant and the forthcoming election when deciding?”
Uh, did you have a point there, or just slinging shit? Here’s some of the asshole SRG’s earlier ‘opinions’:
SRG2 12/23/23
“Then strode in St Ashli, clad in a gown of white samite and basking in celestial radiance, walking calmly and quietly through the halls of Congress as police ushered her through doors they held open for her, before being cruelly martyred for her beliefs by a Soros-backed special forces officer with a Barrett 0.50 rifle equipped with dum-dum bullets.”
Fuck you with a running rusty chainsaw, asshole.
What stage of TDS are you in? Because getting angry at people and accusing them of derangement for wondering how a SCOTUS decision about Trump’s immunity defense will affect prosecuting Trump is … deranged.
You’ve been cheering for him being locked up for years abd accuse others of being deranged lol. Look at your first post above.
Why don’t you go trespass somewhere.
ICWYDT.
Drunk again you stupid bitch?
Nothing in the case prevents prosecution for war crimes.
Sure it does. If the president commits a war crime as part of his core official acts – presumably, in his role as commander-in-chief – then he’s immune.
But the president is also commander-in-chief of the armed forces, which suggests that orders to the military, whether they involve assassination or a coup, likewise trigger absolute immunity.
WTF? Where have you been for the past 6 decades?
Obama dronesassinates American citizens on foreign soil and we wind up impeaching Trump because of a quid pro quo over Ukraine because of retards like you. One might surmise that you(‘re ignorant of how the law works, the Judiciary isn’t the Legislature or the Executive, and…) don’t give a shit if a President has the legal authority and/or immunity to assassinate people and that you’re just worried the wrong one will.
Yeah, this is rather stunning analysis clearly coming from an alternate universe that’s alternate to the alternate one that we’re all alternatively running in.
I live in bizzaroworld and I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
One is prone to feeling this way when all the light of day is provided by legacy media and it is all gaslight.
The majority says Trump cannot be prosecuted for urging the Justice Department to embrace his stolen-election fantasy because such conversations fell within his “conclusive and preclusive” authority to enforce federal law. But the president is also commander-in-chief of the armed forces, which suggests that orders to the military, whether they involve assassination or a coup, likewise trigger absolute immunity. The president has plenary authority to issue pardons, which suggests impeachment might be the only remedy if he takes a bribe in exchange for granting one.
Yes. Do we seriously expect presidents to be prosecuted for waging war?
The context implied that the “assassination or a coup” would happen on US soil. Are you seriously equating that with waging war?
Stunning analysis from sarc.
stolen-election fantasy
It’s been a fucking harrowing year for Democrats and their party friendly sources of infotainment (including Reason). So much of their holy truths (such as the origins of Covid, the DOJ not censoring media giants, “russian misinformation”) has been proven to be coordinated lies to the American people. How anyone couldn’t believe that deep blue Democrat shitholes aren’t fucking with elections is beyond me.
Reasons going to keep going with “stolen election fantasy” as long as they’re told to do so. After all many of their “editors” just cut and paste the shit they read in The New Republic, NYT, and elsewhere. The way things are going for the Democrats, I suspect light is going to be soon shed on their past and current “fortification” activities.
That’s when the fun’s really going to begin: watching the cockroaches scurry like they’ve never had to before.
“infotainment (including Reason)”
Reason Infotainment? Okay I’m stealing that.
They gloated about the fortification in TIME.
Seriously here’s Jacob,
“The majority says Trump cannot be prosecuted for urging the Justice Department to embrace his stolen-election fantasy.”
In virtually every article about Trump Sullum claims the omniscient ability to know that the 2020 election was not rigged to elect Biden.
Really makes it impossible to take anything he says seriously.
Reality is that the 2020 election was rigged to elect Biden because Biden won the most electoral votes.
But reality is that Trump’s stooges tried to rig it the other way.
https://nypost.com/2020/11/04/usps-says-huge-amount-of-mail-in-ballots-were-not-delivered/
Lol. You have finally passed your last height of retardation.
How can anyone be that fucking stupid?
If he takes a bribe, he can be prosecuted for THAT, even if the pardon itself is irrevocable.
Can we strip congress of some of it’s immunity? How about prosecuting those mother fkers for insider trading?
Even Menendez’s wife was extended congressional immunity regarding calls with foreign companies bribing her husband.
It’s going to be hard to run the country with a congress whose number of members you can count on two hands, but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it.
Im sure the progressives who cheered on Obama’s DOJ illegally surveilling US citizens (members of opposing party campaign), and more importantly Obama drone striking both fully innocent and potentially not innocent US citizens to smitherines will be at the front of the line to celebrate this ruling, right…right??
It’s pretty obviously the correct ruling, unless we plan to prosecute literally every POTUS.
If we are saying we have grounds for Trump, then we 1000% have grounds for Biden, Obama, and Bush easy. So do we just make prosecution on every February of [{yearx4} + 1] ? I mean, im game if you are
Remember when Obama came into office and Democrats forcefully argued against prosecuting former Presidents because it would upset the fabric of our Democracy?
Glenn Greenwald did a whole show on that.
Presidents are already allowed to order the assassination of Americans. Apparently anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki
I think this was the only reasonable conclusion the court could have come to. The President has absolute immunity to execute the political powers of his office. When he’s performing optional or tertiary duties, he has some immunity, and when he’s not performing any duties of the presidency, he has no immunity.
The idea that somehow the Supreme Court is going to stop a military coup is laughable. If the President issues an order, that order is obeyed, and the President stays in power, who exactly is supposed to arrest him? His own FBI? His own justice department? The court system stops working in that circumstances, that’s an act of war, and the remedy for that circumstance is violence-assassination or military victory.
Until Trump brought it up, it was considered absurd that the President have criminal immunity. It is still absurd.
HA HA HA
You just wander in a write any old shit that suits your narrative without any regard for the truth.
Seems to be the first page of the Act Blue training manual.
It’s the only page and the only writing on that page.
all of you commentators defending this opinion are no libertarians. Full stop. I want prosecutions and impeachments to happen to every president, soaking up time and energy so congress can govern less.
Executive power should always be curtailed. This opinion aint it.
I agree.
The question is should Presidents be selectively prosecuted based on which parties are in and out of power?
Because the people who want to send Trump to jail want exactly that: Trump goes to jail, Obama throws fundraisers in Hollywood. They don’t want any limits on executive power, they want it massively expanded. They just want to limit who can wield it.
I don’t think there’s much of a difference between the teams in that regard. Both want to prosecute the other while they do whatever they want.
So is granting Presidents some level of blanket immunity the best of a series of bad choices? shrug
Well this is false justification for your own views. Most of us have been saying equal application while you have not.
Sarc is reliably both sides whenever the Democrats have been caught doing something shitty.
….yet Trump did NOT prosecute his opponents….
And yet the only team that’s actually done this is the Dems.
Funny that.
After that debate, the really, really need Trump to go to jail.
It’s pretty much all the dems have left. Expect more crying and hateful vitriol when things are delayed or don’t go their way.
The Nixoning didn’t work, the Stalinist lawfare didn’t work
The DC establishment have shattered too many laws and norms to ever allow let Trumpelstiltskin get elected and clean up their cesspool. Too drunk on power and devoid of any moral compass, they will stop at nothing to maintain their stranglehold.
There’s only the JFK solution left.
F*ck Marilyn’s corpse?
You know that if you want laws repealed, it’s Congress that has to do that. The idea of libertarian deadlock is great, if the government isn’t already doing way too much. If you want it to do less, you need to vote for people who are going to be active in undoing the stuff that is being done too often.
Executive power should always be curtailed. This opinion aint it.
The executive is more than the President. Sometimes it’s the president who is curtailing the power of the executive by reining in the people beneath him. I’ve really had that point driven home during the past 3 years of Biden-a weak President doesn’t suddenly weaken executive power.
Thank you. Finally, a voice of reason: “Executive power should always be curtailed.”
By near constant lawfare and Stalinist show trials?
^+1
all of you commentators defending this opinion are no libertarians. Full stop. I want prosecutions and impeachments to happen to every president, soaking up time and energy so congress can govern less.
Especially if it starts and ends with Trump – right? … RIGHT?
Because we all know thats EXACTLY what you would expect to happen.
This sounds like a good opportunity for Congress to do its job and pass a law clarifying the distinction between “official” and “unofficial” acts. Like with Roe vs Wade, we shouldn’t substitute Supreme Court rulings for actual legislation and lawmaking.
What about coequal branches and the constitution?
What about them? Do you believe Congress passing a law that says “Presidents cannot do XYZ with impunity” would upset the constitutional balance of power?
Umm yes. The constitution clearly lays out a separation of power. Executive, legislative and judiciary. Can the executive diminish the power of the legislative branch? Congress with the signature of the president can pack the court. And they can impeach members. But they can’t defy constitutional rulings of the court. They can impeach a president for high crimes and misdemeanors but they can’t restrict the constitutional powers of the executive. I’d be interested to see the statute you want defining official and unofficial acts. It would be longer that the fucking tax code and would have to survive judicial review
Do you know what articles 1, 2 and 3 do?
Can the executive also declare what constitutes protections under the speech and debate clause. I mean you probably supported Obama when he tried to set scheduling rules and recesses for congress while in office. That was struck down too.
Can a President decide the same for Congress?
It’s why I want to see Presidents challenge all of the civil service laws. Presidents have no say over Congressional staffing. Why should Congress have any over executive staffing?
The presidency doesn’t have oversight powers over Congress.
Oversight doesn’t involve changing the powers of another branch, it is utilizing subpoena power.
It depends on which XYZ Congress is trying to curtail. Since most of what modern presidents do is based on powers granted by congresses since the New Deal, those powers could be taken away by Congress just as easily as they were granted.
But if Congress tries to curtail something that’s spelled out in the Constitution, those XYZs are going to be off limits. Or more precisely, will require a constitutional amendment to curtail, not mere legislation.
Congress could do that, but it would not mean anything under this ruling.
FOAD, asshole.
Unlimited Abuse of Power? Nonsense.
Which is the most powerful branch of government among the three? Congress! Why? Congress can impeach the President and the Justices of the Supreme Court. It can remove them from office while they serve. Neither of the other two branches can remove any member of Congress.
The members of The Left can shriek all they want about unlimited abuse of power. As long as the Constitution remains intact, which admittedly is problematic especially if the Democrats win in November, the Republic remains safe.
The problem this nation on fire faces lies in the system itself as described in the novel, Retribution Fever. The solution lies with science.
Dems deciding to weaponize the legal system against their opposition set this in motion. They have themselves to blame.
I think this ruling severely guts the Smith prosecutions and the Fani case in GA but who knows. That bitch be crazy (see young thug). But the Merchan/Bragg clownshow continues in NY with sentencing scheduled in nine days. We don’t actually know what felonies Trump was convicted of because the judge gave the jury multiple choices. Two of those choices, election interference and defrauding the IRS are federal issues. Will be interesting to see if the Trump defense will file any motions prior to sentencing. There are also multiple “fake elector” state prosecutions going on. Also could see some motions there. Not a lawyer, just wondering.
That young thug case is wild. Fulton County is notorious but Fani decided to take the clown show national.
The idea of this article is ridiculous. It has always been assumed that presidents have immunity. If they didn’t they couldn’t do their job. This only changed when the communist left weaponized the DOJ.
False. Even the OLC said the President is not immune. The President has never been immune.
well you’re wrong
Dude. Get your head out of Trump’ ass. OLC guidance clearly stated that the President was not immune. No one would have considered the President immune before Trump.
Scumbag, stuff your TDS up your ass to keep your head company.
Well, except for the past 250 years of the President enjoying immunity related to official acts of course.
Remember Washington being taken to court personally over his handling of the Whiskey Rebellion? Oh, that didn’t happen? Weird. I guess they just didn’t feel like it that day.
There has never been any court cases related to presidential immunity. It is not in the constitution.
You could start here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_immunity_in_the_United_States
Because there are no court cases challenging a president for doing his job.
Well, I mean, they cited what few of them there were in the opinion.
I’m still reading it, but I’m assuming you didn’t?
It’s a sock of Shrike’s. That’s guaranteed.
Not sure it’s a sock, or a random, TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit.
I keep not finding the OLC in the constitution. Can you cite it for me?
Which branch of government is the OLC again?
Correct. The only reason the issue was before the Court was because the democrats are insistent on their lawfare against the former President since they know they cannot win any other way. Prior to Trump, it was known that Presidents had immunity for official acts in office. The left has gone bat-shit crazy ever since Trump beat Hillary. They have broken every norm and even some laws to destroy his Presidency for his four years in office and now to keep him from returning once again to the White House.
What I see in them is fear. They fear what he will uncover this time. Hillary reportedly said after her loss, was that if Trump took office she and her cohorts would hang. They probably deserve it. Many in the media deserve it as well since they have participated in the treason against our country.
“The idea of this article is ridiculous. It has always been assumed that presidents have immunity. If they didn’t they couldn’t do their job. This only changed when the communist left weaponized the DOJ.”
^+1
I’m not done reading the opinion yet, but can I just point this out:
They “deemed an energetic executive essential to ‘the protection of the community against foreign attacks,’ ‘the steady administration of the laws,’ ‘the protection of property,’ and ‘the security of liberty.’”
Bears repeating after that shameful travesty we saw last week, don’t you think?
Who’s running the Executive Office right now, and was that person elected by the people of the United States of America?
Biden is on his A game between 10 AM and 4 PM.
So over the past 50+ years I’ve been watching politics, since the Watergate scandal, the tendency to concentrate power in the office of the presidency has been something I’ve considered to be anti-democratic and antithetical to pluralistic governance. And there has been a slow general move to invest more power in the presidency.
This country is founded on rebellion against one man rule.
The Supreme Court has just bestowed a huge increase in power to someone holding the presidency regardless of party or ideology, and as such, welcome to the first day of a new era in the American governance. One man rule has just been given a big boost. The office of presidency is now much more powerful, it has morphed into more of a dictatorship or a kingship. It’s a sad day, ultimately liberty itself has been diminished.
The courts just struck down Chevron for fucks sake.
You want to jail Trump because Congress continued to divest their power in the executive over the decades?
Youre not a serious person.
Chevron was a big conservative victory. Now regulation that a second Trump administration puts out is going to be tied up in courts for years, with much of it getting overturned by liberal judges who now basically have discretion over the entire executive branch.
Be careful what you wish for.
“…Now regulation that a second Trump administration puts out is going to be tied up in courts for years, with much of it getting overturned by liberal judges who now basically have discretion over the entire executive branch…”
As a TDS-addled pile of lefty shit, it seems to have escaped your notice that Trump introduced nearly zero new regulation; he did his best to reduce them.
But it’s hard telling whether you have to be stupid to contract TDS, or you became stupid by doing so.
Regardless, FOAD, asshole.
Regardless, FOAD, asshole.
This kind of talk, and the number of insults and personal attacks on this site, makes libertarians look like assholes to anyone browsing this site.
As I go further down the thread you get more retarded. Trump order regulatory cuts during his first 4 years dumbass.
Not yet peak retarded for shitbag here.
Glad you dropped the pretense of being “center right” and confirmed yourself as just another leftist vermin, charlie.
Overturning Chevron was a victory for liberty, the reduction of unaccountable bureaucrats power, and the everyday citizen.
So basically you’re saying the only available choice is to get rid of you democrats?
Yeah, I’ve known that for at leas t the last 20 years.
Roberts is lying about saying it is false “that former presidents can be prosecuted for “official acts” only if they are first impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate based on the same conduct”.
Impeaching and convicting a President is the only mechanism to strip a President of criminal immunity.
FOAD, lying lefty shitbag.
You have orange lips.
FOAD, TDS-addled lying lefty shitbag.
And your entire face is covered in Biden’s ice cream.
“…the justices cast doubt on the viability of Donald Trump’s election interference prosecution…”
Well, well! A dose of reason and justice.
A president simply telling his supporters that an election is stolen is covered by the first amendment. Even Jack Smith admits this. Whether its official or unofficial act should be a moot point.
A president has the authority to order an investigation. If it’s based on isolated incidents and misinformation, it’s just an error in judgment. I could say the same thing about the Kavanaugh witchhunt. Immunity applies.
Telling Mike Pence to reject election results is more iffy. If Jack Smith is allowed to try the case on that ground, he’d have to prove that Trump knew he had lost and thus wanted Mike Pence to go along with the scheme. I can’t imagine Mike Pence admitting to any scheme.
Jack Smith has to prove that Trump acted with fraudulent intent.
A hamas sympathizing prosecutor would have to prove that Biden knowingly supplied Israel with arms to aid in genocide in order to nail him on war crimes. With immunity, they won’t get the chance to try. Who benefits more from this, seriously?
If the Pence thing was so iffy Congress would not have needed to amend the procedure.
What else is there to say about this decision, other than “Jesus wept.”
“Leave unto Cesare what is Cesare’s”. I doubt Jesus Christ would care about our politics.
Cry more.
Hahahahahahaha
Pathetic
This entire thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. There are plenty of other checks and balances.
Apparently not. The republic lasted 230 years without a former president being charged with a crime. Anybody who thinks SCOTUS wanted this case is full of shit. We’ve seen states try to keep Trump off of the ballot based only on their adjudication, without trial, that he was an insurrectionist. We’ve seen the Biden regime trying to imprison him based on novel interpretations of, in some cases, centuries old laws. Under Biden we are a full blown banana republic. The Supremes had no choice but to intervene.
^This.
Never before in the Republic have things ever gotten as crooked and out of hand as in the last ten years.
What the Democrats and administrative state are doing isn’t the prelude to the fall of the Republic, it is the fall of the Republic. The ejection seat cord has already been yanked.
You will never get the pre-2012 America back.
The “normal” political class making getting Trump by any means necessary the be all and end all goal, they have corrupted our system of government more than Trump could or has. It has been a horrifying thing to watch over the past decade.
“…The republic lasted 230 years without a former president being charged with a crime…”
Especially a “crime” of “influencing the election”.
WTF do those idiots assume politicians do *other* than “influence elections”?
For all intents and purposes Trump was convicted of preventing Hillary’s coronation as President. The crime he was legally charged with was irrelevant, beating Hillary is what they think was wrong.
For a couple decades, I have generally supported (mostly passively but sometimes voting) R’s for Senate – and before 2008 R’s for Prez – precisely because of the issue re judicial nomination. Never again. This is a completely destructive decision by the majority and Sullum’s summary is utterly deceitful crap.
Sotomayor’s dissent is spot on:
The majority makes three moves that, in effect, completely insulate Presidents from criminal liability. First, the majority creates absolute immunity for the President’s exercise of “core constitutional powers.” Ante, at 6. This holding is unnecessary on the facts of the indictment, and the majority’s attempt to apply it to the facts expands the concept of core powers beyond any recognizable bounds. In any event, it is quickly eclipsed by the second move, which is to create expansive immunity for all “official act[s].” Ante, at 14. Whether described as presumptive or absolute,
under the majority’s rule, a President’s use of any official power for any purpose, even the most corrupt, is immune from prosecution. That is just as bad as it sounds, and it is baseless. Finally, the majority declares that evidence concerning acts for which the President is immune can play no role in any criminal prosecution against him. See ante, at 30–32. That holding, which will prevent the Government from using a President’s official acts to prove knowledge or intent in prosecuting private offenses, is nonsensical
Conservative judicial ideology has morphed into dingleberry munching for a dictatorial executive. There is no way the majority opinion would have jumped through hoops for some shit that a D President. It is a purely partisan invention of some legalistic bullshit.
I will never vote for an R for any Senate seat and will vote against them where necessary to defeat them. I don’t find it a surprise that the fascist commentariat here is totally ok with prez as god because duh!. And I guess I don’t find it a surprise that the corrupt ideology here at Reason whitewashes any excuse to rationalize dictatorial power.
Go back to watching the View chucklefuck. We have always known you are a lefty here.
JFree’s worldview was always that of a Huffpo reading, CNN watching, postmenopausal boomer. Bien pensant midwittery personified.
That’s a good assessment.
Almost every opinion of Sotomayor has been about increasing the power of the executive and the socialist left. There is no integrity in her opinions.
Your name isn’t familiar, but JFree is one of our resident democrats in libertarian clothing. Most famous for supporting and demand covid authoritarianism including excluding the unvaccinated from medical care access.
Read the dissent. Comment on that. I don’t give a shit about your opinion of some other opinion.
This is like you screaming to read the falsified covid studies.
Dissents have no holding.
FOAD, lying pile of lefty shit.
The dissent is useless.
Vote any way you want. Don’t delude yourself that left is any better or that liberal judges give a shit about you. .
He would obviously prefer Dem sanctified SCOTUS ju(D)ges. He admits as much by saying he wouldn’t vote for R senators anymore.
This means he approves of judges that not only can’t make a coherent dissent opinion but ones that can’t even define what a woman is without appeal to authority. (biologists, in case it wasn’t already painfully apparent)
He outed himself as a bona fide progressive lefty because that is all D senators produce in judge nominations.
I want the judicial pendulum to swing back to the other side. I never agreed with the anti-Roe objective. Even if I never thought it would be as big a deal either. But with Alito being nothing but the Vatican’s justice and Thomas becoming corrupt in his dotage and Roberts and Kavanaugh never worth a shit. Well those are worth replacing with something different. Along with those of the others who just die first. Fingers crossed
I want the judicial pendulum to swing back to the other side.
So you want the pendulum to be leftist like it was for decades before the last 5 years?
^THIS^
My objection is to what the current majority is currently doing. Whatever intellectual heft justices like Scalia brought to the court – that’s dead. The current majority is almost purely partisan and inventing shit whole cloth purely to serve partisan interests.
I don’t expect any pendulum shift to be permanently better. Once it shifts, then I’m sure another shift back will be needed. But by then, I will be dead and it will be up to another generation to make that second pendulum shift happen.
My objection is to what the current majority is currently doing. Whatever intellectual heft justices like Scalia brought to the court – that’s dead. The current majority is almost purely partisan and inventing shit whole cloth purely to serve partisan interests. My objection is to what the current majority is currently doing.
So your objection is that they aren’t advancing the left-liberal agenda, which I’ve already pointed out.
Left-wing historic determinism is a fake theology. Their objection to anything is based solely on their own partisan considerations. There’s absolutely no reason the Supreme Court needs to help advance it.
Strawman away
Hardly. It’s an extremely accurate description.
Jeff claims to be a reformed conservative too. Like jeff nobody buys your shit after a decade of pushing dem narratives.
Believe it or not, there are quite a few former conservatives who now no longer identify with that crowd, because they see that ‘conservative’ has become synonymous with ‘paranoid reactionary morons’.
Like all your pedo friends in the Lincoln Project.
But according to the links I’m getting, Trump is *DEVISTATED* by some infantile Lincoln Project p-shopped ad!
Do they excuse the gang rape of children?
Fuck you. I did not excuse the gang rape of anyone. I stood up for applying standards of justice for all, even those filthy migrants that you hate.
No, you don’t. You believe in the lawlessness of open borders. You also defend the grooming of small children by government school employees. Among your other detestable, degenerate beliefs.
You are a clown living in Clown World if you think that’s true.
Your post in a nutshell: “Hi, I’m the Supreme Court. Please neuter me.”
If that’s what you took from this decision, especially after everything you read from the last week (assuming you read it – which I know you didn’t), then please let me know so that I can come over there and hit you over the head with a cartoon mallet.
Saying this Court is looking to establish a dictatorial executive with this ruling while other rulings have undermined executive favoring precedents like Chevron deference in the same session is a ridiculous conclusion.
Yes they absolutely are looking for a dictatorial executive. As long as it is partisan on the right side. MY kind of dictator.
The characteristics of official acts are clearly defined in Article II of the Constitution. The broadest is to see that the law is faithfully executed. This BS about having Seal Team 6 assassinate a political rival as an official act is so absurd it doesn’t deserve any consideration.
I believe this is the correct decision.
While abhorrent, GW Bush should not have been brought to trial for abuses in Iraq. Obama should not have been brought to trial for killing an American citizen overseas with a drone strike.
Neither president was acting on anything but their best belief that the actions were in the best interests of the country. Yet you could dig up a statute in some venue to make a case.
There are safeguards to keep presidents in line. It would take a conspiracy among many actors in the executive branch to commit the kinds of crimes that exist only between the ears of those who imagine the crimes.
Trump is the perfect example. His VP did his job and certified the election. Trump was gone from the White House on time at the appointed hour.
Prosecutors have absolute immunity for their official acts.
Judges have absolute immunity for their official acts.
Legislators have absolute immunity for their official acts.
With those precedents, how can the President not have absolute immunity for their official acts?
Is there potential for abuse? Yes – in all those cases. The available remedy is impeachment. That’s all. Anything else would subject the presidency to the same disabling timidity that is justification for absolute immunity for other situations.
In hindsight, I’m not sure why anyone thought this was a hard question.
The only remaining question is whether the thing Trump Is alleged to have done were in his official capacity. And as broad as Congress has made presidential power since the New Deal, it will be difficult to say that much of anything is outside official scope.
it will be difficult to say that much of anything is outside official scope.
That’s the real problem here. This decision might be fine if we had the 1920’s version of the executive branch. As things stand now, presidents can do anything they want, and if there is pushback, make an unfortunately plausible claim that what they were doing was associated with some penumbra of an official duty.
“ Those actions, Trump maintained, were “official” because he was trying to ensure the integrity of a federal election. To the contrary, Special Counsel Jack Smith argued, Trump was trying to undermine the integrity of the election, and he did so in service of his interests as a political candidate, not as part of his presidential duties. According to the Supreme Court, the district court therefore must determine, as an initial matter, “whether Trump’s conduct in this area qualifies as official or unofficial.” This is the bitch of the bunch and should survive to be prosecuted. Talking to Pence and ordering the Justice Department investigation is protected, the January 6th stuff requires mind-reading to impute intent, drop these and pursue strong-arming the states.
What’s laughable is Trump never did anything that would legally fly as “election interference”. That premise is as stupid as pretending any voting integrity is “interference”. Do bank tellers get indicted for “stealing interference” too if they call a cop?
Leftard lawfare is all this is.
The big problem with this decision, in trying to create a distinction between acts that have “absolute immunity”, acts that have “presumptive immunity”, and acts that are not immune, is that there is no objective way to determine which is which. So questionable presidential acts that are ‘official-adjacent’, such as, say, calling up the GA governor demanding that he “find the votes”, can always be rationalized by the president as “oh, I’m just investigating voter fraud in my role as the enforcer of the law.” And judges have a strong tendency not to try to get into mind-reading games to claim “well, AKSHUALLY, what the president said he was doing wasn’t really what he was doing”. So in effect every conceivable thing that the president does, that isn’t outrageously absurd like murdering a busload of nuns, will be considered to enjoy immunity.
TL;DR: it creates a very strong presumption of immunity and a high burden of proof to try to prove otherwise, therefore the incentive is for presidents to do whatever the fuck they want.
And even with the busload of nuns – all the president would have to do is claim, well, akshually, they were a bunch of terrorists, and murdering them would be an ‘official duty’ according to the WoT AUMF and the president was just acting in his official capacity as commander-in-chief.
Seems fair enough to me. Even if some nuns aren’t terrorists the god should be able to sort them out if the problem ever arises.
So questionable presidential acts that are ‘official-adjacent’, such as, say, calling up the GA governor demanding that he “find the votes”, can always be rationalized by the president as “oh, I’m just investigating voter fraud in my role as the enforcer of the law.”
If Trump was doing that as a private citizen, that falls under this provision of the First Amendment.
Specifically, “petition the Government for a redress of grievances”.
Similarly, John Podesta was “petition[ing] the Government for a redress of grievances” when he called for an unheard-of, unprecedented intelligence briefing of the Electoral College in 2016.
To be sure, if you offer a coupon for half off appetizers at Applebee’s in exchange for finding votes, or granting an intelligence briefing to electors, that crosses the line to bribery, a crime.
Podesta did not so that, so his petition was protected by the First Amendment.
Don’t play these games.The President cannot be acting in his official capacity one minute and then the very next minute somehow transform into a private citizen who just so happens to have the most powerful job on the planet.He cannot reasonably be considered to be acting just as a private citizen when he’s working at his day job.
If he was acting in his official capacity in that phone call, he was immune due to the virtue of his official act.
If he was not acting in his official capacity at the time, then he3 is immune because the First Amendment protects “petitions to the Government for a redress of grievances”.
So either way the phone call is not a crime.
And this jeff is why we know for a fact youre a retarded leftist moron. You’ve been given the transcript a dozen times. Here it is again
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/03/politics/trump-brad-raffensperger-phone-call-transcript/index.html
Notice the entire call. His team presents thousands of illegal votes. Find the votes was regarding illegal votes. He did not say create votes, fabricate votes, etc.
But you continue to push this false narrative over and over like a good party Democrat. Youre a leftist piece of shit. Lol.
If the call was not an official act, then Trump was acting as a private citizen speaking to a government official.
That means that the phone call is protected by the First Amendment.
Hey – he will prob still claim the validity of the ‘good nazi people’ lie.
No surprises there.
The president has the authority to ask a governor to “find” votes that he felt were missing due to fraud. Federal elections are within his realm. The president can’t order you to buy him an ice cream cone and have it delivered to his room. Nor can he order the judges of a local pie contest to investigate fraud in the voting process. Why do you think there’s no objective way to distinguish or define official act that merit immunity?
You’re buying the leftist freakout in which a president can just do whatever he wants, call it an “official act”, and try to claim immunity. Do you honestly believe that? What part of the constitution allows the executive branch to assassinate political rivals? Or nuns who aren’t national security threats?
There are gray areas. Obama droned an American citizen without trial. The Hamas wing of the left calls the POTUS “Genocide Joe” and accuses him of aiding Israel in committing genocide. But none of that is an equivalent of bombing a busload of nuns out of the blue. These are substantive foreign policy decisions made by presidents in the name of national / global security and some measure of immunity arguably applies.
Are you equally afraid that judges will just jail innocent people he or she personally dislikes, because they enjoy absolute immunity on decisions related to trial? When has the left ever hyperventilated out over that? Why would we ever think a judge of a traffic court could order police officers to murder a rival, then tried to protect himself by asserting “immunity as a judge”?
You are making my point for me. The president can do basically whatever he wants and and if it’s not an official act, it can be rationalized as an official act so that a judge is not going to question it that closely. And the president will rationalize his actions in the same way that you are rationalizing Trump’s actions. Bus load of nuns? They were terrorists, swearsies! And no president is going to assassinate a political rival with his bare hands dumbass.
Judges aren’t law enforcement officials and they don’t have the power to arrest people in the same way that chief executives do so.No, I’m not worried about judge’s grabbing people off the street.That’s what cops do sometimes under the direction of their commander in chief.
“The president can do basically whatever he wants and and if it’s not an official act, it can be rationalized as an official act so that a judge is not going to question it that closely”
So the president can just authorize spending without the house and senate ever voting on it, declare it an “official act”, and then the courts will just throw their arms in their air and won’t act?
Judges aren’t police officers, but according to your logic, they could order the police to raid some rando off the street, rationalize as it as a trial decision, then try to claim absolute immunity as a judge. You do realize that judges grant warrants?
Judges only have immunity on trial decisions. Presidents only have immunity on official acts of the executive branch. A president ordering the navy seal to eliminate a political rival is the exact same thing as the president sneaking out in the middle of a night and paying a hitman to kill a political rival. Exact same thing. The constitution does not give a president authority to assassinate civilians, so whether it can be rationalized as “official” is moot point.
It’s intuitive that presidents can’t murder anyone. If they authorize military actions that result in excessive civilian casualty or even war crimes, he is immune from prosecution. The latter is not without ethical dilemma, but is a necessary evil. This is a easy distinction to make. What are you confused about?
Uh oh. Biden will address the nation about about the immunity ruling. Will it be Dark Brandon or Dementia Joe? I know it’s after four but I’m betting on Dark Brandon.
Is that so. I almost feel sorry for the guy. It is clearly after his bedtime.
Just teleprompter Joe for like 3 minutes with a dire warning that the court has unleashed Orangemanbad. Not Emmy materiel.
A hamas sympathizing prosecutor would have to prove that Biden knowingly supplied Israel with arms to aid in genocide in order to nail him on war crimes. With immunity, they won’t get the chance to try. Who benefits more from this, seriously?
That is something FJB should remember.
There is a prosecutor somewhere in the U.S. who might try that.
It was orange Joe. Orangemanbad?
Isn’t it ‘Darth Brandon’? Which fits better. I’ve always seen Biden as kind of a retarded, senile version of Palpatine.
The majority says Trump cannot be prosecuted for urging the Justice Department to embrace his stolen-election fantasy because such conversations fell within his “conclusive and preclusive” authority to enforce federal law.
Others in the Justice Department embraced the “Trump Colluded with the Russians®™ to Steal the 2016 Electioon” fantasy.
How many of them was convicted?
Was Peter Strzok convicted?
Or those of the Mueller team who factory-resetted their work phones?
If Biden’s handlers were smart, they’d issue a blanket pardon, if for nothing else than optics.
The TDS-addled Biden (‘he did fine!’) imbeciles wouldn’t put up with it.
Like the YT feeds, I have no idea regarding the ratio between those who are imbecilic enough to believe that and those who are simply paid to post such twaddle.
“When Trump urged the Justice Department to investigate his baseless allegations of election fraud,…”
Trump’s allegations were NOT baseless. As has been now revealed, there were thousands of illegal ballots counted in Fulton County, Georgia alone.
Court cases were dismissed on standing before any evidence was even submitted in the Courts.
Some of the vote totals that came in after midnight were statistically impossible. Just because you don’t want to look at the evidence doesn’t mean it is not there and that Trump’s claims were baseless.
People have been indicted of election fraud in several cases nationwide since the 2020 election. The truth is it is Democrats, who without any evidence, allege that the 2020 Presidential election was the most secure election ever and there were no fraudulent ballots counted in that election.
Yeah – but if his lie keeps getting repeated… and amplified on all the legacy media outlets and in the college classrooms… well then – It becomes true then, doesnt it?
Court cases were dismissed on standing before any evidence was even submitted in the Courts.
Not all. The merits were considered in a number of cases – but this lack of standing argument has become an article of faith.
Some of the vote totals that came in after midnight were statistically impossible.
Evidence?
and there were no fraudulent ballots counted in that election.
I don’t know of anyone saying none, but no-one has shown any significant number. There are always a few.
Weird how one side makes sure that anyone can vote without ID, then says there is no evidence of illegal voting.
Funny how only Democrat districts had 100%+ turnout.
Everyone is talking about this in the context of Trump and if he is elected (or succeeds in a coup this time). No one is talking about the current president abusing this. Why? Because people know Biden is too ethical for that. Let that sink in.
I concur with Jack Marshall.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
3. Barack Obama and Joe Biden actively participated in the scheme, as McCarthy’s last paragraph above reminds us. This was genuinely impeachable conduct, far, far worse than the contrived grounds for Trump’s two impeachments.
WOW! Just WOW!
That was amazing….
the guy who digitally raped an office worker is too ethical for that!
I have to hand it to you!…
WOW!
The guy who gets his 10% from all his influence peddling biz his son and brother are 7 stages of shell corporation removed from ..
I could go on and on….
WOW!
She has been known to be dim of wit.
I don’t give a shit whether Biden or Trump or A.N.Other benefits from the SC ruling.
What the ruling has done is say that the president can break the law if it’s part of their official acts – IOW the law is no constraint on a president’s official conduct. It’s as simple as that.
If you agree, you’re an authoritarian.
And, as I have already noted, this decision is clearly not rooted in either the text or original intent of the Constitution. The SC majority engaged in (right-wing) activism and law-making.
Good. Time to turn the clock back on left-liberal historic determinism, which always considers any kind of resistance to be “authoritarian.”
. Time to turn the clock back on left-liberal historic determinism, which always considers any kind of resistance to be “authoritarian.”
Your basis for this claim?
https://www.cato.org/books/liberal-approach-past
As the selections in this reader show, the liberal approach to the past is generally skeptical of laws of history and suggestions of historical determinism.
Your basis for this claim?
Every time the left complains when they don’t get their way.
And so you provide no support. BTW almosy everyone complains when they don’t get their way.
I co not defend the left. I do defend liberal thought. And you covered both in “left-liberal”.
And so you provide no support.
The examples are legion going back to at least 1994 and Peter Jennings saying that the 94 GOP sweep was the voters “throwing a tantrum.”
BTW almosy everyone complains when they don’t get their way.
And the left always does it every time it happens.
I co not defend the left. I do defend liberal thought. And you covered both in “left-liberal”.
Both are excremental.
You would have to explain how you can do something as part of the duties of a President, within the scope of the President’s authority – but its still – somehow – illegal.
It’s how those duties are carried out, not the duties per se The president has the duty to protect the country against enemies. If in doing so, he orders the military to commit a war crime, that is within the scope of his authority but it’s still illegal.
Yeah, turns out Presidents have always been able to act above the letter of the law when it comes to protecting the interests of the nation and acting in his official capacity as President.
But if Biden (or his handlers) want to use that reasoning to kill Trump or kill or put conservatives in camps, that’s fine. If they do, I’m going to reciprocate and start hunting them and their families down for liquidation. Anything like that is “go” time.
If they do, I’m going to reciprocate and start hunting them and their families down for liquidation. Anything like that is “go” time.
Such a big guy. Do you think that a president should be immune from criminal justice who did what you describe?
Do you think that a president should be immune from criminal justice who did what you describe?
False dilemma.
And the correct response to that would be impeachment. It’s not absolute immunity. It’s that there is a mechanism in place for this, and it is not criminal prosecution of the former president by the current one. The courts can be abusive and authoritarian too, and the fact that the current president is the head of the justice department puts an obviously insane level of conflicts of interest.
Let’s look at the other side of it. Should we put Bush and Obama on trial for a half-million counts of felony murder? After all, they led the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. We can make absurd hypotheticals too.
And the correct response to that would be impeachment. It’s not absolute immunity. It’s that there is a mechanism in place for this,
Even the majority dismissed that argument.
I might believe you’re not full of shit if you were advocating for prosecution of Obama for assassination of an American citizen, or even collusion with the intelligence community to target his political rivals campaign.
But, you’re just a Commie.
I didn’t read the article but . . .
Well yeah, otherwise, you simply have some unelected bureaucrats that can lock up Presidents? Meaning they are more powerful than the President? Come on. Federal law criminalizes everything. It’s all up to their “interpretation.” The people decide this through voting (though perhaps fewer people should be qualified to vote).
1. Maybe I’m taking crazy pills or something – but don’t we find that ‘absolute immunity’ – immunity for official acts, taken within the scope of the law, and without error (vice qualified immunity which protects government criminals and incompetents) – to be acceptable?
2. Are teh wallz not clozin’ in any more? Sullum haz sadz.
You’re arguing that the president has absolute immunity for acts that aren’t criminal.
You are forgetting that there is a recent trend of prosecutors coming up with novel interpretations of the law.
Not a recent trend, but Republicans only cared recently.
Absolutely a recent trend, you’re just mad the left took an L here.
The US took an L. Trump took a W. Do you think only the left lost when the SC ruled that the president is above the law for his official acts?
Getting you democrat trash to knock it off is a huge plus. Better would be getting rid of you all entirely.
The US took an L.
No it didn’t. That’s just leftist solipsism talking.
Do you think only the left lost when the SC ruled that the president is above the law for his official acts?
You mean like how it’s been for nearly 250 years?
Cry harder, you lying pile of lefty shit.
>But in weighing the risks of presidential paralysis against the risks of presidential impunity
Except, Mr Pantywetter, there is no immunity for acts outside the scope of the President’s duties. So criminal acts, like, you know, *actually* interfering in an election (rather than exploring legal options to overturn one).
But operating within the scope of his duties does not automatically mean that no law is being broken.
SCOTUS ruled that spearheading a coup is an official act.
No, they didn’t. You’re making wild claims because your side took an L.
If a coup was performed, it would not be an official act.
The facts are simple. No coup happened. No insurrection happened in 2021. The ones in 2020 were not perpetrated by Trump, but rebellious groups aligned with the DNC. Repeating a lie does not make it true.
No military personnel were dispatched to stop the transfer of power. No organized group attempted to seize power. There was no declaration that they were not part of the USA. There was no command structure from president to people on the ground that had any orders to do anything or had any plans to carry out anything of the sort.
Reality exists. Facts exist.
The job of the Supremes is not to determine what is fair to Trump given the current situation. It isn’t even to determine whether presidents more generally deserve, or should have, immunity.
Their job is to read the Constitution, which is the Supreme law of the land, and apply it to the situation. That is what the majority has done. And probably quite correctly. The minority, as usual, is not basing its opinion on what the Constitution says, but what they wish it said.
I tend to agree that a second Trump term will probably be full of reckless behavior that should be checked by more threat of prosecution than we now have given the outcome of Trump vs. United States. The remedy for that is a constitutional amendment that clarifies when the POTUS has criminal immunity. Members of Congress of BOTH PARTIES should agree that the Executive branch needs to be reigned in. Such an amendment would be prospective only … it would not apply to either Trump’s actions in 2017-2021, not to Biden’s actions in 2021-2025.
Except there is nothing in the Constitution or US history that gives the President criminal immunity. They made it up.
There is nothing that gives them total criminal immunity. That’s not what the decision said, although your side is lying and claiming that’s what was ruled.
Because your side lies, always lies, and will forever lie. And absolutely nothing your side claims is valid.
The decision was that all ex–presidents have absolute immunity for acts arising from core official functions, presumptive immunity for all other official acts, and none for private acts. Agreed?
Where in the Constitution – or even in the penumbras – is that principle to be found?
Where in the Constitution – or even in the penumbras – is that principle to be found?
Oh, now we’re going to appeal to literalism, huh? Suddenly your side is all about “the letter of the law” when your goose got cooked on a Supreme Court decision.
Here’s a clue, fuckface–the 2nd Amendment doesn’t specifically say in exact phrasing that “private ownership of firearms” is allowed. That’s why Stevens stupidly claimed that average citizens were not allowed to own them in the first place, because he was a leftist scumbag who hated the idea that conservatives could resist his fellow leftists. But private ownership had been allowed in common law and general public practice long before the left decided that the population needed to be disarmed.
Presidents have been allowed to act extralegally in the interests of defending and preserving the nation. That’s why Lincoln was able to suspend habeus corpus and Obama was able to drone-kill citizens in foreign countries who were suspected terrorists.
But that’s all academic. What’s chapping the left’s ass here isn’t the legal arguments, it’s that it’s a roadblock to them getting Trump by any means necessary for the sin of beating Hillary.
Well said.
Can’t add much to this. Well done.
“…I tend to agree that a second Trump term will probably be full of reckless behavior that should be checked by more threat of prosecution than we now have given the outcome of Trump vs. United States…”
Like reigning in the EPA? Cutting taxes? That sort of “reckless behavior”.
Your TDS is showing; seek help.
The ignorance and violent rhetoric coming from the left and some in the libertarian movement is disgusting. It’s ignorant because the purposefully ignore the various other absolute immunities as if they don’t exist and have never existed – judicial immunity, legislative immunity, prosecutorial immunity, sovereign immunity which all immunities including executive immunity are based off of. You simply cannot get rid of one immunity without destroy all immunities.
You will find a strong overlap between people who disapprove of QI and people who disapprove of presidential immunity.
You’re also overlooking that some immunities are specifically mentioned in the Constitution, and others – including QI, prosecutorial, and presidential immunity are not. Particularly wrt the president, the absence of immunity in the text cannot be regarded as oversight, rather than intentional.
“Supreme Court’s Presidential Immunity Ruling Could Shield Outrageous Abuses of Power”
Seems like some DAs have been getting away with outrageous abuses of power before this ruling.
The reason the Heritage Foundation and their selected jurists is all-in on presidential power is that they have a plan to make sure that the other side never regains presidential power. If we were back in the Clinton days, a Republican court would never go for this stuff.
Need to purge the court of all of the criminals.
“it’s why I have fantasized—don’t get me wrong—but that what if we could just be China for a day? I mean, just, just, just one day. You know, I mean, where we could actually, you know, authorize the right solutions, and I do think there is a sense of that, on, on everything from the economy to environment. I don’t want to be China for a second, OK, I want my democracy to work with the same authority, focus and stick-to-itiveness. But right now we have a system that can only produce suboptimal solutions.”
-Thomas L. Friedman on meet the press in 2010.
You people are such fucking hypocrites. But that’s par for the course for leftist vermin.
Leftists are filth, we need to get rid of them to survive as a nation.
So, Jakey here’s jumping on the ultra far left “it makes him immune from assassinations!” bandwagon that’s making the rounds in the last 36 hours.
I guess that should have been expected.
So stupid. It’s like you’re all a bunch of illiterate morons. Or only read to the part that made you kneejerk like hysterics, and never went back to finish the sentence.
It was this part wasn’t it: “Absolute immunity from criminal prosecution”.
Except the rest of that sentence goes: “for actions within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority.”
He is immune for actions vested in his Article II authority. That’s it. And Article II doesn’t include “those “extreme hypotheticals”” which aren’t even SLIGHTLY worth considering.
Clown. This is a Clown World article. Put on the nose, Jake.
I just don’t get the argument that without immunity the President might hesitate to take decisive action. That’s good! That’s a feature, not a bug. The President should think long and hard about something before they take action.
The argument that the President might fail to take action in the public interest out of fear of repercussions is also bad. Any corrupt politician can come up with a reason the corrupt thing they want to do is in the public interest if they give it a little thought.