J.D. Vance's Incoherent Argument for Higher Minimum Wages
Vance thinks that jobs lost because of incompetent central planning don't matter—but that jobs lost to immigrants do.

In an interview published this week by The New York Times, Sen. J.D. Vance (R–Ohio) calls for a more muscular federal government to intervene even more aggressively in the economy than it already does, to create what Vance calls "incentives" for American workers. In doing so, Vance inadvertently reveals one of the major flaws in this line of analysis.
Vance's opinions about these things carry significant weight, in no small part because he's on the shortlist to be Donald Trump's running mate. With an eye towards that possibility, the Times' Ross Douthat asked Vance to explain his "populist economic agenda." Here is part of the senator's response (emphasis mine):
The populist vision, at least as it exists in my head, is an inversion of [the postwar American order of globalization]: applying as much upward pressure on wages and as much downward pressure on the services that the people use as possible. We've had far too little innovation over the last 40 years, and far too much labor substitution. This is why I think the economics profession is fundamentally wrong about both immigration and about tariffs. Yes, tariffs can apply upward pricing pressure on various things—though I think it's massively overstated—but when you are forced to do more with your domestic labor force, you have all of these positive dynamic effects.
It's a classic formulation: You raise the minimum wage to $20 an hour, and you will sometimes hear libertarians say this is a bad thing. "Well, isn't McDonald's just going to replace some of the workers with kiosks?" That's a good thing, because then the workers who are still there are going to make higher wages; the kiosks will perform a useful function; and that's the kind of rising tide that actually lifts all boats. What is not good is you replace the McDonald's worker from Middletown, Ohio, who makes $17 an hour with an immigrant who makes $15 an hour. And that is, I think, the main thrust of elite liberalism, whether people acknowledge it or not.
The basic fallacy here is one that President Joe Biden, former President Donald Trump, and plenty of other politicians make regularly: They talk as though America is made up of one group of people who are "workers" and another group who are "consumers."
If this was so, you could focus on policies that raise wages for one group—the workers—at the expense of the other. But since most people are sometimes a worker and other times a consumer, policies that artificially apply "upward pressure on wages" also apply upward pressure on the prices consumers pay (because those wages have to come from somewhere). If you want to see how this plays out in reality, just look at California's experience with a $20 minimum wage. Prices have skyrocketed and jobs are being lost.
Pitting the two fictional camps of workers and consumers against one another might be a clever electoral strategy, but it's not the basis for sound economic policy.
There is another, deeper problem with Vance's argument here. In the second section I highlighted above, he argues that there's nothing wrong if a job is automated away after the government mandates a higher minimum wage, because the workers who get to keep their jobs will earn more. But if your job is lost due to market forces—because someone else is willing to do the same work for less—that's a problem he implies the government has a role in solving.
Taken together, those two premises effectively absolve the state from being blamed for the inevitable negative side effects of its interventions in the economy. Think about the two scenarios Vance lays out. In both, a worker has lost a job. If a centrally planned wage mandate is the cause, Vance says that's actually good because it means the remaining workers will earn more and be more productive.
Kudos to him for recognizing that automation isn't something to be feared or banned—not every populist gets that. Even so, the fact that automation can help make some McDonald's workers worth $20 per hour is likely to be little comfort to the worker who would have been willing to earn $17 per hour but is now out of a job because of a government mandate. For that matter, even though automation is a natural market response to artificially higher wages, it's not clear that the trade-off is an economically beneficial one. If it were, why shouldn't Vance want a $100 per hour minimum wage?
Meanwhile, Vance is worried about that same guy being replaced by a different worker who is willing to do the same job for $15 per hour. (That scenario, you'll note, is tinged with xenophobia. Why can't the wage competition come from another native-born American worker willing to do the job for $15 an hour?)
That seems pretty incoherent, but I think Vance is trying to play a clever game here. He's arguing that job losses (or other negative economic consequences) due to well-intentioned governmental interventions should be ignored, and the focus should be on how workers benefit from those interventions.
If you're someone who favors greater governmental intervention in the economy, as Vance does, this is exactly the framework you'd like to work within. Sure, a higher minimum wage means some workers lose their jobs and consumers pay more, but other workers earn fatter checks. Sure, cutting off immigration would probably make inflation worse, but it would protect some workers from wage competition. Sure, dumping tons of tax money on politically favored businesses and industries means higher taxes or borrowing costs foisted on everyone, but look at the shiny new semiconductor factory and the jobs created.
There's nothing new about this line of thinking. Vance is simply adding a more conservative-coded twist to the same tired arguments that progressives and other advocates for big government have used for years. In either case, the argument rests on the premise that government officials know exactly what levers to pull and what "incentives" to offer. Is a $20 per hour wage enough or should it be higher? How many factories does this town or state need? Which jobs are important enough to protect? Conservatives used to have enough humility to recognize that government officials won't have the answers to all those questions.
In place of that humility, Vance and other right-wing populists are substituting a different idea: that when the government inevitably makes mistakes while picking winners and losers, we should simply ignore the costs and focus only on the benefits.
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'We've had far too little innovation over the last 40 years, and far too much labor substitution.'
So, is Vance for or against the WEF plan to send us all back to the farm?
I saw that quote and immediately wondered what planet Vance was living on for the last 40 years (okay, 39 years, touche). Does he really expect anyone to believe that the United States of 1984 is technologically more similar to the United States of 2024 than it is to the United States of 1944?
Educationally and process-wise, we are not invested in this economy. Wal Mart founder brought prices down by innovating a more streamlined process from production to the store shelf. Now, prices are brought down by outsourcing to cheaper labor and tax avoidance.
I’m not sure where Vance is going with his observations, but the observation isn’t wrong. Illegal immigration and offshoring are shortcuts to ignoring and continuing to avoid the terrible state of education, welfare, cost of living, and red tape/regulatory over-reach in this country.
WalMart brought prices down by innovating but Amazon didn't?
Look at tReason defending Democrats by attacking Republicans instead of the Biden crime family.
>>you replace the McDonald's worker from Middletown, Ohio, who makes $17 an hour with an immigrant who makes $15 an hour. And that is, I think, the main thrust of elite liberalism
this was going on literally 37 years ago in Orange County California at Taco Bell where I earned $3.35/hour and my Mexican linemates were being paid $2.00 cash and then all would all go to the Del Taco nearby for another shift ... how is it a fallacy @$17/15, Eric?
Was somebody not enforcing the existing minimum wage law? (Sorry about working at Taco Bell, btw. That must have been soul-destroying...)
SoCal chicks in the drive-thru and all the food we could eat I had a good time.
oh and seriously nobody enforced anything ... the Taco Bell GM would drive them to the Del Taco
Well, I meant the Franchise Tax Board (or whoever in California is supposed to be enforcing state law on minimum wages). Driving them to their next job is great; not paying them their legal wages, not so much.
I recall Taco Bell in the 1980s. Probably the last fast food place I would choose, next to Jack in the Box. And that was before I discovered "real" Mexican food!
Lol. This is an interesting contrast:
Spam: “that must have been soul destroying 🙁
Dill: “I had a good time 🙂
Everything Is So Terrible And Unfair has a type, and that type is you, spammy.
Haha. You suck.
ObviouslyNotSmart is obviously not smart.
Hate to break it to ya, pal, but in the scenario that you posted, it sure seems like your labor was only really worth $2/hour, and you were being paid $3.35/hour only because the state mandated a higher wage.
idk what you're breaking to me, but okay ... I've moved on to greener pastures if that's the concern.
Agree or Disagree? And show your work.
The government should mandate that jobs that are created by an American company on American soil should be given exclusively to American citizens or legal residents.
Aren't only legal residents allowed to work in the US anyway? Whether they work for a "US company" (defined how?) or not seems irrelevant.
Please note the use of the word "should". I am attempting to get at what ought to be, rather than what is.
Agree. Law breakers should be in jail and if they want to work they can work from jail or in their own country until they've been invited.
Okay, fine. You must be bored.
Working in the United States without an Employment Authorization Document is already illegal. Employees not authorized can be deported and barred from entry for 3 to 10 years and employers are proscribed under Title 8 U.S.C. § 1324 and can face penalties of up to $3000 per employee per offense.
I know that. That is why I used the word "should". Should laws like that even exist?
Yes. People who break the law 'should' be in jail.
Only a leftist would say someone should be allowed to put food on their family’s table without first getting permission from the federal government.
Worse yet, they are leftists who believe in freedom of association without regard to nationality. That makes them leftists who hate America.
Not nationality. Legal status. Permission from authority is everything. Only leftists think something should be allowed to do anything without asking permission and obeying commands from authority. Authority is everything.
I don't think it is legal status alone. They have been told many times, that there is a very easy way to solve the "illegal immigration" problem and that is to simply give the migrants legal status, and they all reject it.
It is a subtle distinction, but it is important:
They don't want the illegal immigrants punished because they broke the law per se.
They want illegal immigrants punished because they are *bad people*, and bad people deserve to be punished for their wickedness, and so the law should be rightly enforced upon them.
What makes them "bad people"? Why just look at their countries, they are shitholes! Only bad people could produce such a shitty mess! Right? That is how the logic goes. (Of course let's ignore the role that authoritarian governments play, or the legacy of colonialism, to produce the status quo. Oh no no no.)
So IMO it is fundamentally based on nationality.
you spend an awful lot of your time asserting what others think.
I don't know why you two don't just lobby for the USA to conquer mexico.
They want Mexico to conquer the US.
Indeed. The conquer and consume others pasture mentality till there’s nothing left then move-on (just like they did to their own nation). For 70+% of them anyways. I often flirt with the idea of making wanna-be immigrants *earn* their keep (buy it) but fear it would just raise other problems.
Can we just give California (back) to Mexico?
Do you cry yourself to sleep each night because commenters on Reason call you something other than libertarian? Are you that hurt by it that you have to shit up almost every comments section with the same trope you pull? I'm seriously asking.
Since governments exist to serve its citizens (plus those to whom magnanimity is extended), why not?
"Agree or Disagree? And show your work." Christ God Almighty. What a fucking tool.
The government should mandate...
Disagree. You're welcome. Now fuck off.
Yeah, well, Reason thinks jobs lost to illegal immigration do not matter, but those lost to central planning do.
Two sides of the same coin, I guess?
Imaginary job losses do not show up on either side of the coin.
They are "two sides of the same coin", in a sense.
If by "jobs lost to illegal immigration" you mean a scenario in which an undocumented immigrant is willing to work for less than the state-mandated minimum wage, so another worker loses his/her job as a result, then IMO the real problem here is not that anyone "stole" anyone's job (no one is entitled to a job anyway), but that government, with both the immigration law and the minimum wage law, create a fucked up labor market. If you are being paid $15/hr, and someone else is willing to do the same job for $12/hr, then the real market price of that labor is closer to $12/hr than $15/hr, regardless of what the law says, and government attempts to force everyone to accept a higher wage are, as usual, unsuccessful. And so this is just another way of attempting to centrally plan the economy, which spectacularly fails every time.
Too bad we can’t get anyone to agree on both
Fuck off, Vance. How about you manage the government your hired to manage. Your 34 trillions dollars in debt, so no thanks listening to a government stooge tell me gow to run a business.
^THIS +100000000...
The real curse is in the foundation - centrally planned economy.
Reason is dancing dangerously close to the "Ok, it's happening, it's as bad as you say and it's a good thing" cliff, I'm tempted to just give them a tap on the shoulder and see if they fall off.
What would happen if they "fell off"? Would it mean that Reason editors are forced to tour the poverty stricken communities of white Appalachia and conclude "oh wow that's horrible, time to throw away all our principles and just advocate for whatever argument makes their lives better"?
https://americanmind.org/salvo/thats-not-happening-and-its-good-that-it-is/
As Dreher formulates it, the Law of Merited Impossibility holds: “That will never happen, and when it does, boy will you [homophobes, transphobes, racists, sexists, whatever] deserve it.”
Which brings us to the Law of Salutary Contradiction, whose formulation is: “That’s not happening and it’s good that it is.” While the Law of Merited Impossibility applies to the future, this one is about the present. It’s what the ruling class immediately switches to after what they insisted would “never” happen is happening before everyone’s eyes.
Is the Biden Administration inviting in illegal immigrants, then putting them on military planes and shipping them to the heartland? Absolutely not … and these future Nobel Prize winners deserve their shot at the American Dream.
Once you learn to recognize this pattern, you see it everywhere. It is the cornerstone of ruling class rhetoric in the current year.
Speaking of MAGA:
Happy Birthday to Dear Leader Trump, Champion of Real Americans, and Savior of the Republic!
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/14/politics/donald-trump-birthday
And if you were wondering how you might want to celebrate this momentous day, here are a few tips.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/14/politics/donald-trump-mitch-mcconnell-gop-analysis/index.html
Of course, sing “Happy Birthday” to him at the top of your lungs.
Offer warm congratulations and applause.
But most importantly, if you are the guy who called him “morally and practically responsible” for the Jan. 6 riots, take a moment to shake his hand and personally congratulate him. After all, he is Dear Leader Trump and his birthday only comes once a year!
why do you hate him so much? is it because people like someone you dont, ... agree with someone you dont? Is that a zero sum game with you?
I ask because you are definitely consistent in this - you really do present as someone who is bothered that Trump is not universally hated.
TDS explains a lot.
But since most people are sometimes a worker and other times a consumer, policies that artificially apply "upward pressure on wages" also apply upward pressure on the prices consumers pay (because those wages have to come from somewhere).
That ONLY occurs when labor markets are free. The Reason type crowd will always assume that labor markets are free - which is why they advocate policies that serve to structurally reduce wages without any concern about whether they reduce prices because those reduced wages will provide increased profits (good for the Reason donor class) not lower consumer prices. But at a certain geographic scale labor markets really aren't free. They have been structurally tilted to ensure that the bottom rung of unskilled has to compete with everyone in the world while American CEO's don't even have to compete with other CEO's.
That said - there is pretty much nothing at the national scale that would indicate that a 'minimum wage' is the tool that will 'balance' labor market competition. Maybe city level and even then mostly smaller cities that are kind of 'company towns'. At the national level, the only possible discussion is a very different one about how labor markets are structurally tilted.
Are you implying there is a secretive cabal of business owners who would agree to maintain prices when wages fall just to keep the resulting profits for themselves and that none of them would dare undercut the other by offering a lower price?
"The competitor is our friend, and the customer is our enemy"
- Mark Whitacre quoting Terrance Wilson, one time president of Archer Daniels Midlands' corn processing division.
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|#
"Spouting nonsense is an end in itself."
Depends on whether they see each other again at the country club, donor dinner, or chamber of commerce luncheon.
secretive cabal of business owners
Who controls the British Crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Again Reason loves to say immigrant for everything.
Most American's don't care about legal immigrants getting jobs. They encourage it. America chose to accept them basically.
Illegal immigrant is the issue. Take the crime out of it, what is their attachment to America? Shouldn't they care somewhat?
Reason can't show where unlimited immigrant has worked.
"Reason can’t show where unlimited immigrant has worked."
It clearly works for employers who choose to hire them. Outsourcing to places like China is fraught with difficulties and uncertainties. And no employee is hired for their 'attachment to America,' legal or otherwise.
Still trying get 'Guns' to make sh*t huh?
Vance is a [Na]tional So[zi]alist retard who should have a [D] after his name.
An invasion by millions from hostile foreign countries is not a "market force"; it's warfare.
Is that what happened in Ukraine? Or was that just a special economic operation?
J.D. Vance . . . still a hillbilly, with all of the related limitations and flaws.