Prosecutors Say Trump Tried to 'Hoodwink the American Voter,' Which Is Not a Crime
Closing arguments in the former president's trial highlight the mismatch between the charges and the "election fraud" he supposedly committed.

During his closing argument in Donald Trump's criminal trial in Manhattan on Tuesday, lead defense attorney Todd Blanche hammered at the credibility of the prosecution's star witness, Michael Cohen, the former president's estranged fixer, calling him "the greatest liar of all time." That strategy makes sense given Cohen's role in establishing that Trump "caused" the falsification of the business records at the center of the case. But even if the jury believes Cohen's testimony, it does not prove that Trump falsified those records with the intent of facilitating or concealing "another crime," the justification for charging Trump with 34 felonies rather than 34 misdemeanors.
Cohen, a convicted felon, disbarred lawyer, and admitted liar with a powerful grudge against his former boss, was the only witness who testified that Trump approved a plan to reimburse Cohen for the $130,000 he paid porn star Stormy Daniels shortly before the 2016 presidential election to keep her from talking about her alleged 2006 sexual encounter with Trump. Trump had designated Cohen as his personal lawyer, and the checks were described as "retainer" payments. But Cohen said Trump knew that characterization was false and went along with the charade after Trump Organization CFO Allen Weisselberg (who did not testify) described it during a meeting at Trump Tower in January 2017.
"There is no way that you can find that President Trump knew about this payment at the time it was made without believing the words of Michael Cohen," Blanche told the jurors. Given Cohen's history of dishonesty and his animus against Trump, Blanche said, the jury "cannot convict President Trump [of] any crime beyond a reasonable doubt on the words of Michael Cohen."
Even without Cohen's testimony, however, there is strong circumstantial evidence that Trump "knew about this payment." It defies belief to suppose that Cohen, who was eager to please Trump and conferred with him frequently, would have hatched this scheme on his own, or that he would have fronted $130,000 of his own money without the promise of reimbursement. And contrary to the defense team's contention that Trump thought he was actually paying Cohen for his services as a lawyer, Trump has publicly admitted that he reimbursed Cohen for the Daniels payment.
Trump's lawyers described him as too busy with presidential duties to pay much attention to the justification for Cohen's invoices or the way the payments were recorded. But Trump personally signed nine of the 11 checks to Cohen, and the prosecution credibly portrayed him as a proud penny-pincher who never would have paid Cohen a total of $420,000—which, according to Weisselberg's handwritten notes, included an adjustment for income taxes, a bonus, and reimbursement for an unrelated expense—without knowing exactly what it was for.
Blanche was on firmer ground in arguing that the prosecution had failed to prove "another crime." Although prosecutors are still hedging on exactly what that crime was, they have said their main theory is that Cohen and Trump conspired to promote his election by "unlawful means," in violation of an obscure New York law that apparently has never been invoked before. Under this theory, prosecutors are using one misdemeanor (unlawfully promoting Trump's election) to convert another (falsification of business records) into a felony. But the only way they can do that is by arguing that the nondisclosure agreement (NDA) with Daniels constituted "unlawful means."
The defense team has noted that NDAs are common and that there is nothing inherently illegal about them. The prosecution argues that Cohen, by fronting the hush money, made an excessive campaign contribution, thereby violating the Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA). Cohen accepted that characterization, which hinges on the fuzzy distinction between personal and campaign expenditures, in a 2018 federal plea agreement that also resolved several other, unrelated charges against him. But it is plausible that Trump did not think the Daniels payment was illegal, which helps explain why he was never prosecuted for soliciting Cohen's "contribution": To convict Trump, federal prosecutors would have had to prove that he "knowingly and willfully" violated FECA.
The New York prosecutors say the standard for a criminal FECA conviction is irrelevant: Even if Cohen's payment to Daniels was only a civil violation of federal campaign finance regulations, it would still constitute "unlawful means." But Trump's understanding of FECA's requirements is still relevant. If Trump thought the NDA was perfectly legal, as his lawyers maintain, he could not have intentionally conspired with Cohen to unlawfully influence the election. The claim that he falsified business records with the intent of covering up that alleged crime hinges on the assumption that he was aware of the moribund state election law on which the prosecutors are relying, which is doubtful, and anticipated how they might construe it in light of FECA, which is even more doubtful.
The prosecution has tried to obscure these issues by averring that Trump committed "election fraud" when he directed Cohen to pay Daniels for her silence, thereby concealing information that voters might have deemed relevant in choosing between him and Hillary Clinton. "This was a planned, coordinated, long-running conspiracy to influence the 2016 election, to help Donald Trump get elected through illegal expenditures, to silence people who had something bad to say about his behavior," lead prosecutor Matthew Colangelo told the jury in his opening statement. "It was election fraud, pure and simple."
During his summation, prosecutor Joshua Steinglass tried to use Blanche's scathing description of Cohen against Trump. "We didn't choose Michael Cohen to be our witness," he said. "We didn't pick him up at the witness store. The defendant chose Michael Cohen to be his fixer because he was willing to cheat and lie on his behalf." Conceding that "Cohen is biased," Steinglass said that is because he is "understandably angry that he's the only one who's paid a price for his role in this conspiracy."
As to the nature of that conspiracy, Steinglass called the Daniels NDA "a subversion of democracy." He said it was an "effort to hoodwink the American voter." He told "a sweeping story about a fraud on the American people," as The New York Times puts it. "He argue[d] that the American people in 2016 had the right to determine whether they cared that Trump had slept with a porn star or not, and that the conspiracy prevented them from doing so."
Did the American people have such a right? If so, Trump would have violated it even he had merely asked Daniels to keep quiet, perhaps by appealing to her sympathy for his wife. If Daniels had agreed, the result would have been the same. As the prosecution tells it, that still would amount to "election fraud," even though there is clearly nothing illegal about it.
There is a glaring mismatch between the charges against Trump and what prosecutors describe as the essence of his crime, which is not a crime at all. Since they cannot charge him with "election fraud" merely because he tried to hide embarrassing information, they have instead built a convoluted case that relies on interacting statutes and debatable assumptions about Trump's knowledge and intent.
In the end, the jury may well buy it. Steinglass "knows that many of these jurors, who have promised to be fair and unbiased, may hold opinions about Trump that they are not supposed to take into account at this trial," Times reporter Jonah Bromwich writes. "But he is linking the case against Trump to what his political opponents say about him more generally—and he is trying to play on the jurors' potential political sympathies while still talking about the evidence that entered the courtroom."
In a jurisdiction dominated by Democrats, those "potential political sympathies" could be crucial. But if the jurors take their responsibilities seriously, they may notice the gaps in the state's case.
Steinglass defended the prosecution's decision to walk Daniels through the salacious and unflattering details of her story about sex with Trump, saying they were relevant in establishing his motivation in trying to silence her. He said the same was true of the leaked Access Hollywood tape in which Trump bragged about sexually assaulting women, which prosecutors brought up repeatedly. Coming on the heels of that revelation, they suggested, Daniels' account might have been a fatal blow to Trump's campaign.
The legal logic here is that Trump was mainly worried about the election and therefore should have recognized the Daniels payoff as a campaign expenditure, which made it an excessive campaign contribution by Cohen. That, in turn, made it a misdemeanor under New York's election law. Trump supposedly understood all that, which is why he agreed to disguise his reimbursement of Cohen. And although that happened after the election, it somehow served "the end of keeping information away from the electorate."
We can debate the legal relevance of making the jurors picture a presumptuous Trump in his underwear, imagine him having "brief," condomless sex "in the missionary position," and recall what he said about grabbing women "by the pussy." But like much of the testimony—including Cohen's claim that Trump "wasn't thinking about Melania" at all when he decided to pay Daniels—that evidence certainly reinforced the impression that Trump is an awful person.
If that is what prosecutors were trying to prove, the evidence they presented would be more than sufficient. It may also be enough to conclude that Trump falsified business records. But there is plenty of room for reasonable doubt as to whether those records were aimed at covering up "another crime." Contrary to what prosecutors have implied, their commodious definition of "election fraud" does not count.
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Sticking it in horse face turned out to be very expensive.
Reading summaries from Turley and McCarthy.
Merchan disallowed evidence, such as Cohen plea deal, during the trial as it is disallowed as a fact in all criminal cases. During the prosecution close the Prosecution introduced this evidence. When the defense objected as the evidence was disallowed, Merchan over ruled the objection. And in NY prosecution closes last.
So Merchan is now allowing evidence in the close that wasn't presented in court.
Likewise Merchan started the day telling both councils they could not argue what the law was. He scolded the defense on close for doing so, but had allowed the Prosecution to say what the law is on their close.
It is amazingly corrupt.
I recall this quote from the first X-Men film.
" Because there is no land of tolerance. There is no peace. Not here, or anywhere else. "
Sadly, this quote is true. They will never tolerate us, so we must not tolerate them.
Odd, it is the judge's job to explain the law to a jury, not the prosecutor or the defense attorneys.
Even more odd is that the bribery of witnesses through plea deals is not just allowed, but kept secret from the jury.
It is already clear Merchan isn't describing the law to the jury. One glaring example he granted the prosecutions argument to let jurors for a choose your own adventure for the required predicate crime. They don't have to agree on the predicate. This is in the face of the USSC ruling in Richardson vs United States that says all predicates must be agreed to by the jury.
That makes sense.
If someone is prosecuted for a triple murder, the defendant can be convicted on a murder charge is a jury unanimously agrees that the defendant murdered one of the victims, even if they deadlock or outright acquit on the other victims.
But if the jury does not unanimously agree that the defendant murdered any one particular victim, there can not be a conviction on any of the murder charges, , even if all jurors agree that the defendant murdered at least one victim- just not the same victim.
That's a pretty good analogy, but I think this is even weaker than that. It's not even clear that a predicate crime was even committed at all.
The mere existence of these charges is based on the premise that the prosecutor can invent the law as needed.
What's hard to fathom about the whole case is that if the jury is only supposed to consider Cohen's guilty plea as bearing on his credibility then they have no real proof that there's been any other "unlawful behavior" for the alleged records falsification to be covering up.
If the allegedly "false records" aren't designed to cover up another crime, which would seem to be the case if there actually is no "other crime" or if trump didn't know that there was something happening which could be construed as illegal by the A-USA, then there can't be a "felony" version of the charge brought; if the "felony" version of the fraud charge is off the table, then doesn't it become a factor that the statute of limitations for the misdemeanor/"violation" version of the statute ran out years ago?
I still don't entirely understand how fronting the NDA payment then seeking to recoup that money as "expenses" related to the drafting and closing of the NDA contract couldn't arguably be considered to be "legal services". If I hire a construction contractor, they can go "out of pocket" for materials and bill the cost to me later, or choose to demand some portion of payment in advance to cover those costs; regardless of when I cover the cost of the lumber it's still a legitimately billable portion of what the construction contractor can charge me for, and the more business I do with a particular contractor and the more history I have of paying their bills, the more likely they'll generally be to not bill me up front depending on the size of the job. For a lawyer doing what Cohen was doing for a client like trump, it would seem like the $130k might be a sum that's a fraction of the "retainer" fee billed to the client up front, in which case Cohen might not have even really fronted the money out of his own "pocket" except on paper since once the retainer is paid, it's presumably held in the lawyer's accounts rather than the client's.
https://babylonbee.com/news/judge-instructs-jurors-they-need-not-believe-trump-is-guilty-to-convict-him
Yeah, there's about 1 billion reasons why this whole trial comes apart at the seams on appeal.
But he will be a convicted felon until then which they will use to try to knock him off ballots. Which is the whole point of the charade anyway.
The real mistake was expecting a woman to keep her mouth shut.
Good one sarc.
If Trump is convicted which come on it was decided weeks ago, I hope this opens tons of lawsuits against democrats
Hunter laptop
Ashley diary
Steel report
Russian collusion
All media
And basically everything Hillary
So many lies influencing people
If that were her move, he probably wouldn't have called her for "movie night"...
If that is what prosecutors were trying to prove, the evidence they presented would be more than sufficient.
Sullum. Youre a fucking idiot. NDAs are not illegal. As you yourself admit. There is zero evidence Trump didn't think it was a standard payment for an NDA which the prosecutions own witnesses testified were common. Likewise Merchan disallowed an FEC commissioner from testifying on what a campaign vs personal expense is. NDAs are in fact legal documents. The payments are legal payments.
We can debate the legal relevance of making the jurors picture a presumptuous Trump in his underwear, imagine him having "brief," condomless sex "in the missionary position," and recall what he said about grabbing women "by the pussy."
There is no legal relevance. It has nothing to do with an NDA or an entry into an expense book. It is prejudicial. Which NY appeals courts literally just made comment on for Weinstein.
I've no idea at all why she was testifying. She had no knowledge of the alleged crimes. The only reason she was there was to be prejudicial.
She is the recipient of the money. She sets up the chain...her >>>Cohen who paid her>>>>Trump who reimbursed Cohen. The whole point was to obscure that Trump was involved. Which is why the NDA referenced by JesseAz did not include Stormy or Trump's name (they used fake names). So in short, her testimony that she received ~100k is relevant, so is her attorney's testimony that he negotiated the deal and received the wire for 130k from Cohen directly.
And her testimony about the sex would not have been relevant or admissible UNTIL the defense on cross implied she was making the whole incident up for money. That she never had sex with Trump and her whole story about the events in the hotel suite were false. Because they did that, it allowed the State to rehabilitate her with specific details of the events in question to bolster her credibility that the events did in fact happen. So Team Trump fucked that up by opening that door. Team Trump could have simply stipulated that Cohen paid Daniels attorney 130k and she nor the attorney wouldn't have needed to testify at all. But they wouldn't do that. They wouldn't stipulate to anything at all.
Time will tell if that was a good or poor decision.
If the "falsified records" being charged as criminal were essentially done for the purpose of concealing trump's involvement in the NDA, then wouldn't the NDA itself being "structured to hide trump's involvement" also be a chargeable count?
If the ultimate underlying crime was to hide trump's involvement, then why not make it 35 counts instead of 34? Basing another count on the wording of the NDA itself can't be any more legally unsound than the premise that a campaign preventing the publication of an embarrasing or inconvenient claim about the candidate is in and of itself a criminal act.
If paying a professional entertainer to not do an interview with a tabloid is criminally depriving the public of information that they have a "right to know", then isn't having the FBI issue a false "warning" to both traditional and online media companies that an upcoming story which would be embarrassing to a candidate in order to suppress it from every MSM and social media platform in the weeks prior to election day somehow also a problem?
I actually agree with the sentiment Sullum is conveying. He's saying the prosecution is trying to earn a conviction by providing tons of salacious so the jury will convict him of being a bad person. It's improper because it's unrelated character evidence. Proving that Trump has said things about women is different than proving that he engages in financial frauds, so it has no place in the trial.
You're not wrong. It's an attempt to convict him of being an asshole. Which he certainly is. But, as Welsey Snipes said in Demolition Man, "You can't take away a man's right to be an asshole."
If beingan asshole were a capital offense, trees would become extinct due to all the galllows that would have to be built!
Sarc knows this.
You're not wrong. It's the main reason I've voted for Trump before and will do again. He's an asshole. We assholes deserve representation as much as the cunts, dicks, twats, pricks and back stabbing butt munches who've been represented for the last couple centuries.
If we excluded assholes from political office, there'd be nobody left willing to run.
You've got to be at least a bit of a sociopath to want that kind of power, and quite a bit of a narcissist to think you deserve it. What's remarkable about trump is that he's actually narcissistic to the point of being unfit to be dealt in on a game where multiple un-diagnosed personality disorders is the buy-in stakes.
Honestly, I think this is a big reason Trump is up in the polls. Its really looking more and more like this is just a Biden 2024 election campaign and not a "we want JUSTICE! and to defend DEMOCRACY!!"
The country is putting out a collective eye-roll to this, and its not landing at all, similar to the breathless J6 show trials.
Also, this trial which is getting so much national "attention" (again, no one actually cares), is the one that is the least likely to land with anyone.
Evangelicals were cool with this dude knowing the stromie shit. You think he's losing votes NOW? Fuck now. This shit was baked in years ago, and the country is long past caring. If he actually was convicted, it would just look like petty partisan posturing, not anything a voter would care about.
They lead with their worst card. The classified docs case, with a verdict coming in against him, would be something that could theoretically be somewhat of a small cudgel. But very small (given all his predecessors did this shit).
But campaign finance?! Motherfucker, the entire intel agency and MSM just went full court press to kill a media story 5 minutes before an election to get Trump out of office. You going to tell me I should care that he didnt follow the letter of the law (maybe) to pay off a fucking pornstar 2 elections ago? In a world where JFK is still fawned over as a national hero to many?
They are reaching so far they are going to fall right off the cliff, and it will be hilarious when Trump gets elected.
I am someone who has always disliked Trump, but im just at the wanting to see them get what they deserve phase. The schadenfreude of Trump making a comeback is exactly what they have bought and paid for
You're not wrong. Schadenfreude is exactly what is called for.
Let's not forget that the Biden campaign held a press conference at the trial. It was such a bad image that Fox was the only network that covered it.
You'd think that with the percent of the public who see these prosecutions, and the Bragg charges in particular as politically motivated "lawfare" which is at some level organized by or within the Dem party and Biden Administration they'd know not to intentionally draw so much focus onto it.
The people who are happy to see it happening (and eagerly awaiting the "guilty" verdict which should probably be overturned on appeal but might have to go higher than that since the NY Appeals court has been made as ideologically/politically homogeneous as it is demographically uniform) would never have voted for trump anyway, and are concentrated so heavily in "deep blue" states that their turnout or lack of turnout won't change anything.
The people who support trump at this point, largely don't like him except that he's seen as willing to "stand up to the 'woke' left", and if anything will get more energized to turn out by what they see as a naked attempt to weaponize government as a tool to keep the opposition off of the ballot (just as it's done in Tehran, Havana, Caracas, Pyongyang, Beijing, and Moscow), and they might not be wrong about that take on what's happening.
It's impossible to imagine that in the year 2024 there's anyone left in the US who's both eligible to vote and ambiguous enough about trump to really make their final choice based on the outcome of a criminal case that even many Biden supporters think is more motivated by partisanship than actual justice.
In an ideal world, the large majority of US voters who even in 2016 said that they'd vote for "literally anybody else" would actually make good on that stance and break the "two party system" in a way that might put it beyond repair.
Ah, Reason- such a "liberty" oriented publication.
"Trump's deportation plan is un-American!"
Vs
"Prosecutors say Trump is bad, which is not a crime"
Totes forceful "opposition" to tyranny...
Trump's deportation plan IS un-American. As are you.
The last time we had massive deportations the POTUS was American war hero Dwight D. Eisenhower and the program was run by Joseph Swing who ran the 11th Airborne during WW2 helping to retake the Philippines and invade Japan. Do you think that they were unAmerican?
And Reagan did an amnesty for illegals. He ended the Cold War. That’s pretty big.
Brave people can have bad politics.
John Glen was a Democrat after all.
Reagan agreed to an amnesty in exchange for promises of border security. Promises that were never kept. The Democrats failed to uphold their part of the bargain.
Let's make a deal. Shut down the border to illegal aliens for ten years and we will amnesty the illegal aliens in the USA. You have my solemn promise to uphold my side of the deal.
What was part B of the amnesty agreement sarc?
John Glenn was a Democrat in a time when actual liberal thought was still allowed by members of that party.
Hard to imagine his cis/straight/white/male/christian existence would be tolerated by today's Dem voters unless they were denied any alternative as has been the case with "the Big Guy".
Not unless your vision of America is an open wound; forever festering but never healing.
To legally immigrate to this country in 1967, my mother needed both a sponsor and proof the job waiting for her could not be filled by an American citizen. She was entitled to exactly zero state benefits. Fuck off.
Welfare and 150B to illegal immigrants a year us un-American. But definitely globalist marxist.
"Trump’s deportation plan IS un-American."
The US has been deporting every illegal it caught for two hundred years. What the hell are you babbling about?
As usual, when you try to talk about the law, you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you're not a lawyer. You lack the foundation to understand the things others say (and you repeat), and your total inability to admit error about the things you don't understand makes you an unconvincing advocate. Stick to politics.
However, as this case draws to a close (and I've followed it to the very limit of my interest) I have come to the conclusion that Trump should be acquitted. The prosecution's theory is weak, convoluted and impossible to prove to the required legal standard. If the jury convicts, it will be because they've been convinced that Trump is a "bad actor" (which is true, but not illegal by itself).
I'm quite sure Trump is a crook, among other things, which disqualify him from serving as President, but this particular case should never have been brought.
He tried to hoodwink voters?
Isn't that the same thing that every politician since George Washington has done?
Isn’t that the same thing that every politician since George Washington has done?
Let's be fair here. That's what every politician since the dawn of time has done.
The Dems get to decide who’s guilty of it though.
If I were a district attorney or a state's attorney, I would prosecute Democrats for felonies, regardless of collateral damage, regardless of the evidence, regardless of the law, regardless of Brady v. Maryland, regardless of the United States Constitution.
The rules have changed.
Do you remember Maraxus?
Because I will never forget Maraxus.
https://www.quora.com/Is-Trump-correct-when-he-said-that-The-answer-is-you-have-no-choice-because-they-re-doing-it-to-us-in-response-to-an-interviewers-question-about-locking-up-his-enemies-Will-Americas-prisons-become-Trumps-Gulags-of/answer/Michael-Ejercito
***START QUOTE***
You’ve asserted that public officials must be held to a higher moral standard than the rest of humanity. First, I’d like to know why that is the case.
She did uphold the law. She was arrested, went to court, pled guilty to the charges (i.e. she accepted responsibility for her actions), and was punished accordingly. She could have pulled a Perry and attempted to use her position to get out of the DUI charge, but instead she had enough integrity to accept responsility for her actions.
See, when we elect a district attorney, we trust them to do one thing: prosecute crimes. So long as they prosecute crimes, and do that properly and well, they’re doing what we asked them to. They are doing the bare minimum of what we expect from them- correctly using the powers of their office to perform the assigned duty. Driving drunk may reflect poorly on the DA’s character and mean they should not have been elected… but it doesn’t mean they have failed to do the actual job the public trusted them to do. We didn’t elect this DA to be sober, we elected them to prosecute cases.
Seriously, she made a bad decision and followed it up by doing the right thing. What’s blowing my fucking mind is apparently we have shitheads on this board that are attempting to justify Rick “The Dick” Perry making a blatant attempt to shove a shill appointee into one of the few effective anti-corruption enforcement agencies in the state of Texas.
Plus, if you actually read my arguments (which I doubt), you would have to notice that IT DOES NOT MATTER whether Lehmberg has lots of integrity or no integrity. Perry is not being charged with “thinking Lehmberg has no integrity.” He is being charged with misusing the power of his office and threatening to misuse taxpayer money, in order to coerce an elected official into acting in a certain way.
It DOES NOT MATTER that you think Perry was justified in doing so because this particular elected official was dishonorable and inferior. It is not Perry’s place to hire or fire Lehmberg, and it is not his place to threaten to defund a law enforcement operation in an attempt to blackmail her into resigning against her will.
Your appeals to “common sense” do not impress me. Give me a good reason why a moral failing, which incidentally has nothing to do with investigating corruption, should automatically disqualify a person from holding office. You assert without cause that this is the case. Please provide evidence that Lehmberg’s DUI has harmed the PIU’s integrity in any way. If you can’t do this without repeating some version of your “DUIs are rly bad guys” silliness, then maybe you should just go away.
And as for The Hammer, that’s true. He did get his conviction overturned by the Texas Supreme Court, an elected body that consists almost entirely of conservative Republicans. They didn’t think DeLay actually did all that stuff, and Texas doesn’t really have much in the way of campaign finance laws anyway. It makes no matter, though. He was still a cancerous growth on Congress’ asscheek, begging for a public fall from grace. And when he got convicted the first time around, we as a nation are better off for it. Ronnie Earle did humanity a favor when he realized that DeLay broke campaign finance laws, and he did us an even greater one when he got DeLay convicted. Whether or not “justice” was actually served against him isn’t so important. The fact that he no longer holds office though? That’s very important.
Of course! And the people on the Travis Commissioner’s Court would have tossed Lehmberg out on her ass a long time ago. They’re not doing it because there are, frankly, more important things at stake. In a state like Texas where the GOP has historically run roughshod over the Dems, they cannot afford to lose powerful positions like this. Considering the number of cases coming out of the PIU, including, incidentally, a Perry-allied ex-official who channeled millions of dollars to some of his big contributors, the Travis DA’s office has more influence than just about any Democrat in the state. If Perry didn’t have the right to appoint her replacement, and he almost assuredly would have appointed a fairly right-wing replacement, I’m sure the Travis County Dems would like to tell Lehmberg to take a short walk off a long pier. Unhappily, there are more important considerations at hand.
***END QUOTE***
Back in 2014, this was an extremely fringe belief. There was no way Maraxus’s ideals could become mainstream.
Now it is clear that the Democratic Party adopted Maraxus’s ideals.
The Democratic Party is the party of Maraxus, now.
In the animated series Gargoyles, there is a character called Demona, whose schtick was vengeance against those who hurt her and her kind.
To deal with Maraxus, we must become the party of Demona!
For this is war.
WTF man? This is Trump we are talking about.
Even if you think Trump is being railroaded here, it wouldn't be the first time that a disfavored politician got railroaded unfairly. The Republic managed to survive. In this quotation that you cite, evidently, you think Tom Delay was unfairly railroaded when he was prosecuted? (I'm not entirely sure TBH.) Well, here we are, we all managed to make do without Tom Delay's presence in Congress.
I just don't understand how so many of you can so personally identify with a guy like Trump to the extent that you are willing to take these very extreme positions on his behalf. When Trump says "I'm fighting for you!!!", do you really believe him? Do you think he is telling the truth? News flash: Trump fights only for himself. Trump is a corrupt lying bigoted demagogic asshole. He has no morals and no convictions and no principles. He has been a conman ever since the 1980s when he built his real estate "empire" based on Daddy's money and a pile of debt, then went bankrupt and stiffed his creditors (many of whom were small businesses who couldn't afford it). He has put forth failed venture after failed venture, based on his image rather than anything of substance - Trump Steaks, Trump University, Trump Vodka (and he doesn't even drink himself!). He cheats on his wife multiple times, he switches parties like he changes underwear, he takes every position on every issue, he has no moral foundation whatsoever.
But the way some of you regard him, you'd think he was some modern-day Joan of Arc or something. Why? WHY? Why go to the mat for such a cretinous creature? Why threaten war.... over THAT?
It’s cool because you don’t like him.
Tom DeLay and Rick Perry were unfairly railroaded.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2014/08/17/ethics-dunces-abc-news-jonathan-karl-and-the-sunday-morning-roundtable/
There is no more land of tolerance.
There is no more peace.
So you think Tom DeLay and Rick Perry were unfairly railroaded. Okay, fair enough. When it occurred, did you threaten WAR? My guess is "no". Why does the case of Trump inspire cries of WAR?
I had not realized how bad the problem was.
In hindsight, it started with DeLay. Ronnie Earle and Michale McCrum should have been run out of the legal profession on a rail.
Oh my god. You are going to go to the mat over Tom Fucking DeLay.
Are you going to acknowledge the, say, “hardball” tactics that DeLay engaged in? He wasn’t a saint either.
Seems to me you are saying that Republicans get to do whatever they want, no matter how sleazy, but if Democrats respond in kind, then that is grounds for war.
Let's just review real quick what Tom DeLay did. He very intentionally pushed for a mid-decade restricting plan in Texas with the very naked purpose of giving Republicans more representation in Congress. It was a power grab pure and simple. And Democrats were understandably upset with this. They evidently looked through his finances with a fine-toothed comb and found something that they thought they could indict him with. And so they did.
I'm not saying what Ronnie Earle did was right, only that it was entirely predictable. Yet you seem to let one side off the hook. Hmm.
Youre just doubling down on agreeing with state prosecutions of political enemies Jeff.
Remember how angry you were in 2015 when Trump joked about Lock Her Up?
Seems to me you are saying that Republicans get to do whatever they want, no matter how sleazy, but if Democrats respond in kind, then that is grounds for war.
Do you have an example of this Jeff? Where Republicans made up a crime and charged a Democrat? I can give you a lot of examples of democrats getting away with crimes.
Where Republicans made up a crime and charged a Democrat? I can give you a lot of examples of democrats getting away with crimes.
Republicans need to start doing this right away, regardless of collateral damage, regardless of evidence, regardless of law, regardless of Brady v. Maryland, regardless of the United States Constitution.
This is war.
We either fight back with no restraint, or they send us to the gas chambers!
Mutually assured destruction may be required to stop the one sided lawfare.
It needs to start right away.
Where Republicans made up a crime and charged a Democrat?
lol they impeached a president over a blowjob.
"But no, Clinton was impeached for lying under oath!"
So why was he even being asked under oath about blowjobs and affairs? Because Republicans kept investigating the shit out of him until they found something that they could entrap him with. Because they were playing the Machiavellian game of power that both teams play.
And here we aee Jeff once again lying.
He was impeached for perjury in court you retarded leftist fuck.
And ironically even with Whitewater there were a dozen convictions but the Clinton’s were never charged.
You also applauded both impeachment of Trump.
Likewise impeachment are not criminal trials. Clinton didn't even face trial for his open perjury.
So why was he even being asked under oath about blowjobs and affairs?
What the fuck. How many lies are you going to tell. The perjury was about other women he assaulted.
Because Republicans kept investigating the shit out of him until they found something that they could entrap him with.
You mean the women he actually sexually and physically abused to have your DNC heros call trailer park hos?
And again this wasn’t a criminal trial you retarded fuck.
Perjury is a common charge. See your hero Michael Cohen. It isnt fabricated you dishonest leftist fuck.
Oh and here is more bullshit from Jesse.
I don't even have to read his writing to know that he is defending Republicans.
He cannot get around the fact that Republicans kept investigating the shit out of Clinton, first Whitewater, then blowjobs, until they found something that they could entrap him with.
And you know what? It was all entirely legal. They had the power to do it, so they did.
This abuse of power goes both ways. You all only cry foul when it's done to you, but you never seem to recognize when it's your team doing it to them.
And yes I did say "abuse of power". I do think that this "hush money" case is an incredibly weak case and it's primarily being brought because Trump is a hated villain in New York. But you know what? That is the nature of power. The Democrats are in the wrong here, but they are not especially or particularly in the wrong. The solution here is to reduce the number of laws, period. The solution is to reduce the power of the state overall. The solution is not to just put "the right people in charge" because that won't change anything.
Where did I defend Republicans jeff? I called out your fucking lies defending Clinton, a Democrat.
And nobody here believes you are against this state abuse as your first dozen posts were in support. Youre such a dishonest and obese leftist fuck.
You still haven’t shown the both ways here. Clinton faced impeachment not 132 years on Jail you dishonest fuck.
You’ve been given a half dozen examples of your side doing it and the only counter you have is Clinton LYING ON THE STAND which he admitted to. And he wasn't even criminally charged lol.
What the actual fuck is wrong with you? Too much reading Sulu and Katie Hill?
The solution here is to reduce the number of laws, period.
Your team is inventing new laws in real time to charge the right shitbag.
The solution is to reduce the power of the state overall.
But only after your team puts all the opponents in jail apparently.
Fuck off fats.
Republicans made up that perjury is a crime? Please tell us more Lying Jeffy.
“Oh and here is more bullshit from Jesse.
I don’t even have to read his writing to know”
Of course you didn’t. You might have had to acknowledge your narratives were just wrecked.
Classic Creamjeff.
Do you know why Paula Jone's attorneys could ask about Bill Clinton receiving a blow job in the White House? Because just two years before Bill Clinton in a White House Rose Garden ceremony while surrounded by several left wing woman's groups such as NOW signed the law that allows a person suing for sexual harassment to ask such questions about the accused's sexual history. He actually used a separate pen for each letter of his name ( that way the pens could be given away as gifts to mark the historical occasion) when he signed.
Very great point!
You were so concerned with destroying your enemies you didn’t think there would be consequences.
We are at war.
Let us follow the example of Demona!
State abuses are fine guys. Don't start a war over it. It is working great in Venezuela and Iran.
Demona was right!
WHY WON’T YOU JUST LET MY TRIBE THROUGH OUR ENEMIES IN CAGES WITHOUT COMPLAINING?
They want to throw us into the gas chambers!
No, no, NO!!! They want to THROUGH us into the gas chambers! Ken ye snot get this THROW yer think shed, fer cryin' out load?!?!?
"...THROUGH OUR ENEMIES IN CAGES..."
In it's all-CAPS rage, R-Smack-Head now wants to through out the first ball of the ball season! Through me another one, over my way, of yer CUMPELLING arguments, Oh Brilliantly well-Written Genius!
And while yer at throughing out the first ball of the ball season, could ye please also through the baby out with the bath water?
McDonnell is more apt as he was railroaded by Jack Smith, bankrupted, then had the conviction overturned unanimously by the USSC... and Jack Smith was promoted.
Jeff is seemingly inferring state abuses are fine if it doesn't destroy the country. He applauds it. Because even if not guilty, Trump is harmed.
Is he really too stupid to realize how blatant he’s being in this thread?
It is intentional.
He supports these abuses, this change of rules.
He doesn't care. He applauds it. And sarc, Mr M (aka sarc), shrike, and others approve. The big Ls.
"Even if you think Trump is being railroaded here, it wouldn’t be the first time that a disfavored politician got railroaded unfairly."
Which Presidential candidate was treated as this?
Also, you'd think ANYBODY getting railroaded by the courts would be a bad thing to you, not something to justify, but my view on you is never quite low enough.
But, yes, no biggie because you dislike him.
You are going to hate these rules.
Look up Eugene Debs.
Also, you’d think ANYBODY getting railroaded by the courts would be a bad thing to you
I think that anyone getting railroaded by the courts is a bad thing, whether or not that person is named Trump or not.
On the other hand, while I think it is bad, I don't normally threaten WAR! when it happens.
Why does the case of Trump inspire cries of WAR?
You have cheered every attack on Trump Jeffrey. Who the fuck do you think you're kidding here? You support it. You are thrilled by it.
I don't call the evil fuck a Nazi for nothing.
Trump is not a Nazi. That would require a belief system.
So what you are saying is that the Democratic party has been arresting and jailing it's opponents for over a hundred years? Because Debs was jailed under Democrat Woodrow Wilson.
"Look up Eugene Debs."
Yes, the list of people the Democrats have fucked over judicially is very lengthy. And, yes, it took a Republican to fix the damage caused by the Democrats.
Your point?
"On the other hand, while I think it is bad, I don’t normally threaten WAR! when it happens."
Then your complaints mean nothing and are just performative. Good to know.
"Why does the case of Trump inspire cries of WAR?"
You mean OUTSIDE of the shredding of the Constitution wholesale?
"Why does the case of Trump inspire cries of WAR?”
1. People are much more aware of the government's corruption and bias. It is now blatant.
2. The left has made war in the streets over "Saint" Floyd, an ACTUAL worthless criminal. They flood the streets with violent illegal alien thugs and then charge people with crimes for clear self defense. It already IS a form of civil war, whether you admit it or not.
3. Because literally every other candidate, even Florida Freedom Man, is/was a bought and paid for statist WEF totalitarian corporate shill except Trump, who is merely SLIGHTLY less awful, and the thugs in power cannot tolerate either that. He can't be as easily controlled and the power-hungry can't stand that --even when they are still MOSTLY getting their way.
So, yeah, when they give the people no choice but their impending enslavement, war and violence are the rational and morally (if not technically 'legally') appropriate response.
I have zero trust and faith in any of the institutions, and neither should anyone else with a brain. They have been almost wholly captured by tyrants and ideologues, and no longer function properly or justly. The Trump cases are such ridiculous biased nonsense that only partisan hacks can't see through them. I didn't even vote for the guy, but this level of corrupt railroading is a threat to LITERALLY EVERYONE who isn't a blindly obedient totalitarian government shill.
Are you trying to convince libertarians or yourself when you defend state abuses against your enemies?
“I just don’t understand how so many of you can so personally identify with a guy like Trump to the extent that you are willing to take these very extreme positions on his behalf.”
Not wanting an authoritarian regime to use lawfare against their political enemies is only “extreme” to fascists like yourself, Lying Jeffy.
No, it's more like wanting to use lawfare against your political enemies, and now having a justification for doing so.
Otherwise, you would continue to decry it, not embrace it.
June is AI month at Reason but unofficially, every edition is TDS month.
This whole farce is too much even for Sullum.
If I were a cop investigating a crime, my reaction would depend on if the suspect is a Democrat or a Republican.
If a Republican, I would do my best to destroy any evidence showing guilt, by hook or by crook.
If a Democrat, I would do my best to destroy any evidence showing innocence, by hook or by crook.
We are a t war.
The rules have changed.
I wish it were not that way, but it is.
We either fight them with no restraint, or they send us to the gas chambers.
There is no third option.
Having a constitutional order was neat.
Indeed, it was.
Sadly, there is no more land of tolerance.
there is no more peace.
okay, Nardz
when are you going to start murdering progressives?
That’ll take a lot of helicopters.
Be patient.
Edit; Because you’re fat.
Haha! He even admitted he was fat!
Hodginson already started it. Same with the BLM rioters. The guy in Portland. The guy running over the kid in ND.
ANTIFA is openly attacking people.
I mean fuck, go back to The Weatherman who became Obama mentor and are very high profile in the DNC.
Your side already started the war Jeff.
What makes you think he hasn’t?
Fair point.
The two most honest posters here guys! Never talks about the who. Just the what.
"when are you going to start murdering progressives?"
Hopefully never.
...but if it happened and I had evidence of it, that evidence might quickly cease to exist before anybody learned of it.
Hey, these are the rules now.
A lot of folks it will get kinetic in a big way. During a time of mass social upheaval, many trans might lose access to their pharma products that help them cosplay the incorrect sex.
Don't declare war unless you're prepared to lose.
Of course, losers are pretty well-prepared in that regard, so you're probably good!
I don't think that's really true for most people's thoughts. Not many people go into a fight/sports event/test prepared to lose or be the worst, that's not how things in general got done now or in the past. Sure people failed and lost but if people were wired that way we would have never done a quarter of the things that have been done in history.
That's not right. Don't declare war unless you are reasonably sure you are going to win.
""This whole farce is too much even for Sullum.""
Exactly. Sullum has never been a fan of Trump. He sees the bullshit.
But what about KKKlinton’s emailz?
They were all wiped with a cloth.
Did this cloth have bleach applied to it? If so, that’s twice as scary.
Meanwhile, how's team Biden doing? Let's check in:
Dems in full-blown ‘freakout’ over Biden
One adviser to major Democratic donors keeps a running list of reasons Biden could lose.
A pervasive sense of fear has settled in at the highest levels of the Democratic Party over President Joe Biden’s reelection prospects, even among officeholders and strategists who had previously expressed confidence about the coming battle with Donald Trump.
“This isn’t, ‘Oh my God, Mitt Romney might become president.’ It’s ‘Oh my God, the democracy might end.’”
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/28/democrats-freakout-over-biden-00160047
“This isn’t, ‘Oh my God, Mitt Romney might become president.’ It’s ‘Oh my God, the democracy might end.’”
Two thing about that quote that I noticed:
1. They're finally admitting that they lied about Mitt "put y'all back in chains/ binders full of women" Romney being some kind of Mormon Supremacist hell bent on turning the USA into some kind of Handmaid's Tale dystopia and re-institute slavery.
and
2. Because of number 1, they probably don't actually believe their own bullshit this time around about Trump's re-election supposedly spelling the end of "OuR dEmOcRaSeE!!!11!111!!!!!!" either. IOW, they're basically admitting to gaslighting everyone, but most people will still be too stupid to see it.
Of course the propagandists don't believe their own bullshit.
They're not the ones that matter, though. They've put on enough of a media blitz, divided people, and othered non-progressives so much that rank and file voters think that they're in the mainstream when repeating the bullshit. So they do. So more people think it's mainstream, so they repeat it, until it becomes "truth".
Story from two hours ago. Foreigners (I think one was from NYC, the other the Bay Area... fuck I hate when these assholes come here) sitting behind me in a coffee shop. One tells the other that you can't leave Alabama any more without taking a pregnancy test at the border. The other believes him, replies that they're going to make Alabama the Handmaid's Tale and that the current supreme court would absolutely vote for it.
These were doctors. They loud talked for half an hour more, so I learned too much, but THEY believed it. Theoretically educated professionals, but they believed that you literally cannot cross the Alabama state border without peeing on a stick, and they genuinely believed that SCOTUS wouldn't slap that shit down in a microsecond if it were true.
Propaganda works. The delegitimizing of the SCOTUS going on recently is working. Painting Rs as reactionary idiots slightly to the right of ISIS also works.
Side note: Ever notice how the most idiotic fuckers are the loudest and most adamant that their point is irrefutable?
The forced dem indoctrination of med school is coming along nicely.
I can't tell you how often I've hear the talking points and exact repeated phrases from my 'very progressive neighbor' (tm):
'Flori-Duh'
'Muh Free-dumbs'
'THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRACY!!'
These people believe that they are well-informed, worldly, and intelligent individuals, for some reason. But they're just parroting MSNBC and DNC (but I repeat myself) talking points without any sort of critical thought or analysis.
Exactly this.
When you are repeating the talking point -- the one repeated almost verbatim by all of your partisan news outlets... well, you know.
But people like to fit in, so they say what their tribe says. And people especially like to feel superior, so they REALLY repeat the talking points putting the other down as benighted idiots.
“The legal logic here is that Trump was mainly worried about the election and therefore should have recognized the Daniels payoff as a campaign expenditure, which made it an excessive campaign contribution by Cohen. “
It’s a bit more crazy, I gather. The prosecution somehow needs to avoid turning the expense into a campaign contribution, per se, in addition to proving Trump’s intent to deceive.
To get there, they need to slice and dice the gordian knot of election-finance law, a relevant part of which requires valid expenditures to completely detach themselves from any personal use, more or less.
Ah, this expense obviously fails that test. Hence the reason for this judge limiting testimony by Trump’s expert witness, who would have let the cat out of the bag, and put an end to this kangaroo court.
Do you remember Maraxus?
https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=161693&sid=bf1e964b2d36e629e063999b4953f65a
It'd be even better if the judge did not refuse to allow somebody who, unlike the bought-and-paid-for judge IS an expert on the topic of election finance law, to testify.
More MAGAworld bullshit.
In the judge's pretrial order (March 18, 2024) the expert witness was explicitly permitted to testify about: "general background as to what the Federal Campaign Commission ("FEC") is, background as to who makes up the FEC, what the FEC's function is, what laws, if any, the FEC is responsible for enforcing, and general definitions and terms that relate directly to this case, such as for example "campaign contribution"."
Because the "expert witness" was not a normal witness (i.e., someone with first-hand knowledge) to anything that happened in this case, he was not allowed to testify about anything else, and Trump's legal dream team decided not to call him to the stand.
The judge's order can be appealed after the trial, and if an appeals court decides it was wrong, it will be reversed. That is what "normal" is. The defendant and his acolytes FREAKING OUT ABOUT IT in social media more than two months later will not change anything--and is not at all normal.
More bullshit.
Expert witnesses frequently testify without first hand knowledge about what happened in a particular case. That’s the whole point – they aren’t testifying what they heard or saw the accused do, they are testifying about specific technical questions they are experts in.
Yes but are expert witnesses there to testify about the law? What the law is and what their view of the facts in this case mean vis a vis that law?? I thought witnesses testified to facts and expert witnesses are there to help the jury determine FACTUAL questions.
The jury is the fact finder. The court will supply them the law. The juries job is to apply the facts as they find them to the law the judge gives them. Using an expert in campaign finance law to tell the jury what the law is, is not normally what an expert's testimony is about. An expert in a med-mal case doesn't go and testify that they reviewed the hospital records and conclude that the treating doctor committed malpractice. They testify to what the normal course of treatment is and whether or not the treating doctor acted in conformance with the appropriate standard of medical care. There is a difference. Trump's lawyers know the difference. The Judge knows the difference. Most of the commenters here don't understand the difference. Trump's lawyers know its not appropriate to call an expert witness in to explain to the jury the law.
By the prosecution's logic, those 50 CIA spies who lied about Hunter Biden's laptop violated FACA.
When will those spies be executed?
Very great point!
The spies were smart enough to include plausible denial in their statement. They outright said they had no proof. Therefore it should have never been taken as fact.
Correct. They specifically said the laptop info had "all of the earmarks of a Russian disinformation campaign" instead of declaring it a Russian disinformation campaign. They worded it that way because they knew the claim about Russian disinfo was bullshit, but that people would take what they said as meaning it was Russian disinfo, while still giving them an out from having declared explicitly that it was. The whole point was to quash the story so it wouldn't hurt Biden's election chances. That sounds like it violated the election law they are using in the Trump trial, since it's the INTENT to promote or hinder a candidate, which this certainly was.
Oh yeah? Well whatabout…?
This is war.
We need retaliatory prosecutions against Democrats.
Democrats are the Party of Maraxus, now.
https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=161693&sid=bf1e964b2d36e629e063999b4953f65a
We must become the Party of Demona!
Once it turns to war, the invisible hand trying to destroy the country wins. It is desired. Destruction from within.
Yes sarc. Because state abuses happened in the past Trump is fine being abused by the state. Keep pretending you're libertarian without TDS.
Retaliatory abuses by Republican officials is the only answer.
the rules have changed, whether we like it or not.
This is war.
Have you heard of Mike Davis?
https://www.mediamatters.org/steve-bannon/trumps-viceroy-dc-violent-threats-and-bigotry-maga-media-favorite-mike-davis
He is the attorney general that we need!
He will be our Demona!
From your link:
So you want to cut off the fingers of Democrats and send them to gas chambers and gulags?
Just treat the like your team did for J6 protestors. A year of solitary in bad jails. 2-3 year sentences for non violent acts.
Then like your team does for abortion protestors. 5 years for every sprained ankle.
Or your team does for tearing down a pride flag. 1 year in jail.
Before they do it to us!
They're not going to do it to you.
Not unless you start an actual war, in which case, they very well might.
So maybe, don't start an actual war.
We are already at war.
No we aren’t. That is your hyperbole.
We are nowhere close to the horrors of actual war. No sane person should wish for such a thing.
Here is a better solution. Vote for leaders who will use power responsibly. Not in retaliation, not as revenge, but as responsible stewards.
This necessarily means not voting for either Team Red, nor for Team Blue, because they are both engaged in this tit-for-tat Machiavellian game of power.
Notice jeff doesn’t advocate for any Democrat doing it now to stop. Just ignore it for now. He promises the next Democrat will be good.
In most of these areas doing this shit it is deep blue, D+30. Dems aren’t going to stop you retarded fuck. You just want people to not complain about what is currently happening.
You still haven't given us an example of tat.
""We are nowhere close to the horrors of actual war. ""
True.
Also true, Trump has never acted anywhere close to horrors of Hitler, but that doesn't stop idiots from making a claim.
""Here is a better solution. Vote for leaders who will use power responsibly.""
There isn't one in the presidential race. So now what?
You can’t trespass in a government building or obstruct an official function of government without going to jail, moron. Sorry that isn’t going to war. Get a grip.
Sure you can.
The people who obstructed the official function of the Senate having a hearing to select a judge for SCOTUS did not go to jail.
Many were cited for their action but 0 of them went to jail.
When does Jamal Bowman start his prison sentence, then?
Tell that to the 1000 j6 protestors who committed no violence or vandalism.
Fat authoritarian fuck.
Your team even brags about it.
I’d tell you that now is the time to go engage in a shootout with your local police station, but you’re too far gone with TDS that I don’t want to encourage the mentally unwell.
""I’d tell you that now is the time to go engage in a shootout with your local police station,""
A police station was taken over by protestors during the 2020 riots. What happened to them?
That's because that was a "mostly peaceful" takeover of police station!
Bit late for that. They are openly doing it to the applause of media and Jeff.
"So you want to cut off the fingers of Democrats and send them to gas chambers and gulags?"
Why are you getting so upset over mean comments about Democrats? I do not like them, but you seem anxious to go to WAR~! over it.
So.... you must feel really awkward now. The only whatabout in the thread is your boyfriend Jeff.
But if the jurors take their responsibilities seriously...
Not a chance in hell.
Trump bragged about sexually assaulting women
Of course, we all know he did no such thing.
Because if they consent, we know, it's actually not sexual assault. And he was talking about the things women let famous people do.
And Trump isn't the first person to point that out.
It's an open secret that this is how Hollywood actually operates.
They're mad that he doesn't filter them.
Beyond that, it doesn't even matter if Trump is entirely WRONG! Maybe he's lying and he can't actually just grab them by the pussy. Maybe he's mistaken about how women actually respond to fame. Maybe he's vastly overstating the prevalence of attention-hungry sluts in the world.
That doesn't make his statement a confession that he's ever sexually assaulted a woman, or that he approves of sexual assault. It makes it a crude, unsavory statement he said that mischaracterizes the truth. What might be even worse is that's it's an impolite reality people would rather you don't mention because it's upsetting.
He wasn't saying, "I can get away with crimes because I'm famous," he was saying "Women will consent to anything when you're a star." He wasn't bragging that he'd grabbed tons of women by the pussy, he was saying "You can do anything. You could grab them by the pussy," offering it as an outrageous example of something that star-fucking women consent to. It was a rhetorical and hyperbolic example.
It's the biggest nothing-burger of a statement that Trump critics try to seize on because the language is crude and saucy. It means absolutely nothing.
"...It was a rhetorical and hyperbolic example..."
Or an honest presentation of what shake-down artists are willing to do.
It's almost like the E. Jean Carroll case never happened! I suggest you read up on it, because it's directly on point.
To recap, after a bench trial, a New York judge determined that Donald Trump sexually assaulted (specifically, by grabbing her "by the pussy") E. Jean Carroll, without her consent, and then defamed her when she said so publicly.
It’s almost like the E. Jean Carroll case never happened! I suggest you read up on it, because it’s directly on point.
The case was wrongly decided, you twit!
Ah, you didn't like the outcome of the case, so it doesn't exist. Makes sense.
The bitch could not even remember what year the alleged assault took place!
It's almost like you think E. Jean Carroll actually had a shred of credibility.
What does my view of her credibility have to do with the fact that Trump has already lost (bigly!) a civil case on this exact point?
In other words, the truth doesn't matter if you get an outcome you like.
A black man in the Jim Crow South was found guilty by an all-white jury of his peers. It doesn't matter if the "victim" and witnesses against him were lying, the jury found him guilty! What does the credibility of the accuser and witnesses have to do with the fact that he was found guilty?!
Da Thinker had claimed that Trump’s boast “was a rhetorical and hyperbolic example”, and therefore not a boast about anything he’d actually done IRL.
Don’t you think it was slightly remiss of him not to have mentioned a recent civil court case in which Trump was found, by a judge after a trial, to have done exactly that which he had later been caught on tape boasting about? Perhaps he was simply ignorant of the facts of the E. Jean Carroll case? Is that the most likely explanation?
What does my view of her credibility have to do with the fact that Trump has already lost (bigly!) a civil case on this exact point?
Yes, I find her uncredible. There's a reason existing laws didn't allow people to bring claims from over two decades ago-it's because evidence fades and recollections become less reliable over time. But they changed the law to allow her to bring a suit over this specifically to "get" Donald Trump.
She had no evidence, the whole case was he said-she said, and she came off as kooky. She was also in a position to make a ton of money from inventing this story. They couldn't provide evidence that Donald Trump was ever at a Bergdorff's, much less that he was inside one at the same time as Carrolll. There were no witnesses. They had one photograph from decades ago that showed Carroll and Trump were once at one event together, but other than that, no evidence they ever interacted.
In my mind, I'll bet they were mutually flirting at the time, probably made out a bit. In her mind, at some point, she came to hate Trump, and after the "grab'em by the pussy" story, that element got incorporated into her own story. I don't believe she was sexually assaulted by Trump. The jury also didn't believe she was raped, but they came back with a weirdly compromised verdict.
Yeah, I thought you probably knew about the case.
Imagine if Brad Pitt said the same thing. Many women would not only agree but would fight for a place in line.
It's the cute/ugly bias.
"Because if they consent, we know, it’s actually not sexual assault. And he was talking about the things women let famous people do."
That involves believing women have some semblance of agency over their actions. The author, clearly, does not believe that to be the case.
Considering that he bragged about women giving him "consent" to do this after having done it to E. Jean Carroll without her consent (as determined in a court of law), it is fair to say that his claim that "they let him do it" should not be taken as fact. But you do.
Are you actually denying that Trump has been found by a court of law to have sexually assaulted E. Jean Carroll? "La la la la..."
Are you actually denying that Trump has been found by a court of law to have sexually assaulted E. Jean Carroll? “La la la la…”
The verdict was wrong.
"La la la la..."
The bitch waited decades to “come forward”
Rela victims do not wait decades. Ask Elizabeth Smart.
You probably think OJ was innocent.
OJ was innocent. I happen to think he murdered two people and escaped criminal liability (mainly due to his wealth and fame enabling him to wage superior lawfare--sounds familiar?), but “innocence” is a legal term of art which applies to every person until they are convicted in a court of law.
No matter how much I may disagree with the verdict, the fact that he was acquitted cannot simply be ignored or wished away. It is a fact.
You seem to have faith in a legal system that has wrongfully convicted people in the past.
No, innocent is not a legal term of art. It's not a synonym of acquitted.
Acquitted until proven guilty...So I've been saying it wrong all these years?
But then he was found liable for having committed the murders in a court of law. Does the civil trial not count? You invoke the fact that Trump was found liable for the "assault" against Carroll in a civil trial as justification to state he "assaulted" her, but also say OJ wasn't liable.
I said OJ was a murderer who escaped criminal liability.
In much the same way Trump is a rapist who escaped criminal liability, now that you mention it. Thanks.
OJ was innocent
U.S. criminal courts do not decide if the defendant is innocent or guilty.
Regardless, the point I and others were making is that courts can be corrupted and/or issue bad verdicts and decisions. You, on the other hand, seem to deify the courts as infallible, as long as the outcome is what you wanted.
Are there any court verdicts/decisions that you think are travesties? I suspect you've railed against some verdicts. I don't know you, so I'm just going to take some shots in the dark here. Was the Dredd Scott decision a good one? How about Plessy v Ferguson? What about the acquittal of the officers in the Rodney King case? Or the Dobbs decision? And my favorite, the acquittal of Kyle Rittenhouse. Do you disagree with any of those? How can you, those were the verdicts/decisions of the court? Or do you only apply this standard when it's Trump or someone you dislike? Also, the Carroll lawsuit was a civil trial, with a much lower standard for finding the defendant liable (convicted).
My takeaway has that Michael Cphen has completed defaming himself and showing to the public that whatever bar association he may had belonged to at one time should be ancient history.
Because, you expect confidentiality between a lawyer and he who hires him. And there is none of that, there. Even though we know that he had a falling out with his client, it is not Michael Cohen trying to bring charges and convert misdemeanors into felonies against his client. And even if it were, why? Do we read this properly as an official "changing sides" and joining the party of possibly anyone but Trump?
Yes, I do not comprehend this trial much at all.
He lost his law license years ago.
This will be a test regarding a renegade DA as opposed to the US judiciary. There is no recognizable legal charge here, but if you can convince 12 fools, well, here we go.
If "Hoodwinking" is a crime I can think of a few past Presidents who ought to be in prison for that and more than a few Senators & Congressmen and Governors and Mayors.
I defy you to find ones that ought NOT to be in prison for hoodwinking.
The number may not be zero, but it'll be a hell of a lot lower than the ones that are guilty of that "crime."
(Misek will be along shortly...)
We will see what the jury says. I predict guilty on the misdemeanors and hung jury on the felonies.
Hmmm. I believe all 34 counts were felonies. He couldn't be charged with misdemeanors, probably due to the shorter SoL.
The absurdity of the prosecution’s case makes it look exactly like a politically motivated conspiracy to keep Trump from being able to campaign, and otherwise affect the outcome of the election.
In 2020, ~50 so-called intelligence experts signed onto a letter that falsely claimed that Hunter Biden’s laptop was Russian disinformation. Lock them all up. They conspired with Blinken (who solicited the letter) to defraud the public and fraudulently win the election. Their signatures were individual crimes, according to the NY case’s theory.
I’m no Trump supporter. Didn’t vote for him either time and won’t this time. I find the abuse of the legal system to be criminal in their own right. I also don’t get the infatuation with the bad orange man, either for or against - it seems like a mental health problem.
Your knowledge of the Intelligence Officials letter is about to suffer from exposure to reality:
"It is for all these reasons that we write to say that the arrival on the US political scene of emails purportedly belonging to Vice President Biden’s son Hunter, much of it related to his time serving on the Board of the Ukrainian gas company Burisma, has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation.
We want to emphasize that we do not know if the emails, provided to the New York Post by President Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, are genuine or not and that we do not have evidence of Russian involvement -- just that our experience makes us deeply suspicious that the Russian government played a significant role in this case."
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000175-4393-d7aa-af77-579f9b330000
"Prosecutors Say Trump Tried to 'Hoodwink the American Voter,' Which Is Not a Crime."
Oh, please.
Every politician, dictator and royal has been hoodwinking the voters and their people from day one.
If Trump is convicted which come on it was decided weeks ago, I hope this opens tons of lawsuits against democrats
Hunter laptop
Ashley diary
Steel report
Russian collusion
All media
And basically everything Hillary
So many lies influencing people