The Details of Stormy Daniels' Story About Sex With Trump Are Legally Irrelevant
Under the prosecution's theory, Trump would be guilty of falsifying business records even if Daniels made the whole thing up.

Juan Merchan, the judge presiding over Donald Trump's criminal trial in Manhattan, yesterday denied a second defense motion for a mistrial. Trump's lead attorney, Todd Blanche, has objected to aspects of porn star Stormy Daniels' testimony about her purported 2006 sexual encounter with Trump, saying some of the details were legally irrelevant and "so unduly and inappropriately prejudicial" that a mistrial was the only remedy. Merchan rejected that argument on Tuesday and again on Thursday, saying the problem that Blanche perceives was largely a result of the defense team's failures during Daniels' testimony and cross-examination.
Among other things, Blanche cited testimony suggesting, for the first time, that Daniels' alleged encounter with Trump was not fully consensual. This dispute illustrates the risk that the salaciousness of Daniels' account will overshadow the legal issue at the center of the case.
Trump is not charged with adultery or sexual assault. He is not charged with trying to keep Daniels from talking about what she says happened, although Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg has misleadingly suggested that the essence of Trump's crime was keeping that information from voters during his 2016 presidential campaign. Trump is not even charged with instructing his personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, to pay Daniels $130,000 shortly before the election in exchange for her silence. Rather, he is charged with falsifying business records to disguise his 2017 reimbursement of Cohen as payment for legal services.
Proving those 34 charges does not require demonstrating that Daniels is telling the truth at all, let alone that every detail is accurate. Under the prosecution's theory, Trump would be guilty of falsifying business records even if Daniels made the whole thing up. And assuming that Cohen's payment to Daniels amounted to an excessive campaign contribution (a characterization that Cohen accepted when he pleaded guilty to that offense in 2018), Trump's falsification of business records would be a felony if he was trying to conceal that violation of federal campaign finance regulations.
There are several problems with that theory, including the fuzziness of the distinction between personal and campaign expenditures, the question of whether Trump recognized that the Daniels payoff fell into the latter category (assuming that it did), the uncertainty about Trump's involvement in generating the relevant business records and his motive in doing so, and the attempt to convert a 2016 federal campaign finance violation into a state felony via a moribund New York election law that apparently has never been used before. But one thing is clear: Trump's criminal liability in this case has nothing to do with exactly what happened in his Lake Tahoe hotel suite during a celebrity golf tournament in July 2006.
Jurors nevertheless heard a lot about that. For years, Daniels has said she consented to sex with Trump. But during her testimony on Tuesday, she cast doubt on that characterization, saying "I just think I blacked out," although she added that she was not "drunk" or "drugged." She also noted that "there was a bodyguard right outside the door" and said "there was an imbalance of power for sure," since Trump "was bigger and blocking the way," although she conceded that she "was not threatened verbally or physically."
When Blanche complained that Daniels had changed her story, Merchan disagreed. "I disagree with your narrative that there is any new account here," the judge said. "I disagree that there is any changing story." Yet Blanche's complaint is at least partially valid.
It's true that Daniels has mentioned the bodyguard, Keith Schiller, before. He figures prominently in the account she gave in her 2018 memoir Full Disclosure. In that book, she also mentions that Trump did not wear a condom—another detail that Blanche described as irrelevant and prejudicial.
"I was surprised he didn't even mention a condom," Daniels says in Full Disclosure. "I didn't have one with me anyway, because I wasn't meeting him for sex. If I had been, I always brought my own, because I am allergic to latex. Back then I used Avantis"—a brand of nonlatex condoms. While Daniels' testimony on that point was similar, it introduced an element of concern that is not mentioned in the book:
Prosecutor Susan Hoffinger: Was he wearing a condom?
Daniels: No.
Hoffinger: Was that concerning to you?
Daniels: Yes.
Hoffinger: Did you say anything about it?
Daniels: No.
Hoffinger: Why not?
Daniels: I didn't say anything at all.
That exchange, Blanche noted, came after Daniels' testimony that the men with whom she performed in adult films were always required to wear condoms. On Thursday, the defense described the discussion of condoms as "a dog whistle for rape." While that may be an exaggeration, Daniels' testimony that Trump's failure to use a condom worried her certainly reinforced the impression that Daniels was doing something she did not want to do.
Full Disclosure leaves a similar impression—up to a point. After a conversation in which Daniels felt that Trump was treating her respectfully and taking her seriously as a businesswoman, she says, she emerged from a bathroom where she had touched up her makeup to find Trump sitting on a bed in his underwear.
"I had the sense of a vacuum taking all of the air out of the room, and me deflating with it," Daniels writes. "I sighed inwardly, keenly aware of two thoughts in that one moment. There was the simple Oh, fuck. Here we go. But there was also a much more complex, sad feeling that none of what he said was true. He didn't respect me. Everything he said to me was bullshit."
Daniels says she "should have…let him know this wasn't okay." But she didn't. "So, here we go," she writes. "It was an out-of-body experience….I just kind of lay there. A lot of women have been there. He wasn't aggressive, and I know for damn sure I could have outrun him if I tried, but I didn't. I'm someone who doesn't stop thinking, so as he was on top of me I replayed the previous three hours to figure out how I could have avoided this."
In her book, Daniels describes brief, sad, regrettable, and unsatisfying sex, but she emphasizes that it was an experience she easily could have avoided. Although she never quite explains why she decided to go through with it, there is no suggestion that she was incapacitated. But in her testimony, she said "I blacked out," which she suggested explained why "I don't remember" exactly what happened. Blacking out is not the same as "an out-of-body experience," which involves feeling detached from your body while fully conscious.
"I was not drugged," Daniels said. "I never insinuated that I was on drugs. I was not drunk. I never said anything of that sort." In a sidebar discussion, defense attorney Susan Necheles nevertheless objected that "she is making it sound like she was drugged." Hoffinger suggested that Daniels merely meant that she was "dizzy," possibly because she was hungry for the dinner that was promised but never materialized—a point she emphasizes in her book and mentioned in her testimony.
Merchan sustained Necheles' objection. But that did not stop the jury from hearing Daniels imply that she was not fully aware of what was happening that night. Combined with Daniels' references to the bodyguard and the "imbalance of power," that description strongly suggested her consent was not only passive and unenthusiastic but the product of pressure and incapacity.
Daniels strengthened that impression by saying she could not "remember how your clothes got off." There was Trump in his underwear, she said, and "the next thing I know" she was "on the bed," naked. Hoffinger asked whether she "remember[ed] anything other than the fact that you had sex on the bed." Not really, Daniels implied: "I was staring at the ceiling. I didn't know how I got there. I made note, like I was trying to think about anything other than what was happening there." That also prompted an objection from Hoffinger, which Merchan sustained.
In Full Disclosure, by contrast, Daniels recounts the sex in considerable detail, calling Trump "a terrible kisser," quoting what he said to her, describing the position he used, recalling the size and "unusual" shape of his penis, and remarking on his crotch hair. While these are just the sort of details that the defense (and Merchan) would deem out of bounds, they contradict the idea that Daniels was just "staring at the ceiling," that she didn't know "how I got there," or that she was only dimly aware of "what was happening there."
What does all this have to do with Trump's alleged falsification of business records? "All of this has nothing to do with this case," Blanche told Merchan on Tuesday. "The only reason why the government asked those questions, aside from pure embarrassment, is to inflame this jury to not look at the evidence that matters." He noted that Daniels "has testified today about consent, about danger," which is "not the point of this case."
The prosecution argues that the details of Daniels' story matter because they rebut Trump's contention that she invented the whole episode, which in turn goes to his motivation in arranging her nondisclosure agreement and in trying to keep it a secret with phony invoices, mislabeled checks, and fraudulent ledger entries. "Her account completes the narrative of the events that precipitated the falsification of business records," Hoffinger told Merchan. "Her account is highly probative of the defendant's intent, his intent and his motive in paying this off, and making sure that the American public did not hear this before the election. It is precisely what the defendant did not want to become public."
Merchan agreed with Blanche that "there were some things that would probably have
been better left unsaid." But he said the fault for that lay partly with Trump's attorneys. "The objections, for the most part, were sustained," he said. "Where there was a motion to strike testimony, for the most part, that motion was granted as well. I will also note that I was surprised that there were not more objections at various times during the testimony….So when you say that, you know, the bell has been rung, the defense has to take some responsibility for that."
Merchan was less patient on Thursday, when the defense again moved for a mistrial. "There were many times when you could have objected but didn't," he told Necheles. She objected when Daniels testified that she "touch[ed] his skin" and when she said "we were in the missionary position," for example, but did not object during the condom exchange, which Blanche later argued was prejudicial and irrelevant. Nor did Necheles object when Daniels described the "imbalance of power" or when she noted that Trump was "definitely several inches taller and much larger" than her. And Necheles' objection to "I just think I blacked out" came late, five sentences after Daniels said it.
Merchan also "chided Mr. Trump's lawyers for missteps during their cross-examination of Ms. Daniels," The New York Times notes, "and suggested that the former president's insistence on entirely denying any sexual encounter with Ms. Daniels had opened the door for the prosecution to introduce specific—and graphic—evidence that the encounter did occur." The judge conceded that some details of Daniels' testimony were so needlessly prejudicial that he would have sustained objections to them if the defense had made them. At the same time, he said Daniels could "corroborate her account" by describing details of the encounter because a truthful story "increases the motivation to silence her."
That rationale seems like a stretch, especially since the prosecution has argued that Trump was eager to suppress negative stories even when they were not true. According to testimony that prosecutors presented to establish that pattern, Cohen arranged for the National Enquirer to pay former Trump Tower doorman Dino Sajudin $30,000 for exclusive rights to his story, which alleged that Trump had fathered a child with a woman hired to clean the building. Although the Enquirer investigated that story and determined that it was not true, prosecutors say, Trump was still keen to stop Sajudin from telling it. That suggests Trump would have wanted to silence Daniels even if her story was equally fictitious, making all the quibbling about the details of that story irrelevant.
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You can’t have a circus without clowns.
Gotta love the FOX News choice of headlines about this story:
Stormy Daniels' testimony 'blew the prosecution's case into smithereens,' former federal prosecutor argues
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6352523777112
🙂
😉
Well, I doubt any of the conservatives infesting this site will consider that to be an example of bias, just sound reporting.
The prosecution didn’t need stormy to blow anything for them. They blew it before they started.
To be fair, Stormy is a professional blower.
..eager to suppress negative stories even when they were not true..
Who wouldn’t?
I was told by someone that Sullum didn't report shrikes Child Porn links for a few hours as he was busy browsing.
Fuck.
David Letterman, when subjected to attempted blackmail, he went to the police.
Oh yeah ? And what do members of congress normally do?
I’ll await your response , shrike.
DLAM's comment was open ended and I gave a response and you are moving on to Congress people now.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Congress Critters are a bunch of yet to be indicted criminals. A comparison to another television personality is more apt since at the time Trump was just a TV personality running for office. Not an actual sitting president.
Is she awarding someone the key to her vagina?
Raise your hand if this makes you like Stormy Daniels more.
Wouldn't that imply it was ever closed?
It’s actually a keyless entry. Just have to have a one and the right number of zeros after it.
Ha. I imagined a car remote and her vagina making a beep beep sound...
The defense opened the door to all this bullshit testimony because Trump insisted they deny the sex happened at all. Where are Necheles questions about making up fake sex stories for a living? Her accusing Daniels of making this story up?
The defense can’t accuse her of making it up, then bitch when the State rehabilitates her AND THEN ask for a mistrial because of their own fuck up. By NOT doing any sort of stipulations (on this and everything else), they gave the prosecution way more room to maneuver than they needed to be given. I don’t know how it will affect the jury, but the longer Stormy is sitting in that witness seat the worse its going to be for Trump. They added hours to what should have been a short cross. And now the jury is going to make assumptions about Trump’s character and infidelity etc… and all that is going to do is hurt Trump when it comes time to deliberate.
If the defense was smart, they would have stipulated to the hotel room visit, left out details about the sex (keeping them irrelevant and not heard by the jury) and just focused on stormy having no knowledge of Trumps business practices etc… Shorter and sweeter. Ask a few questions about her porn star lifestyle and leave it alone.
This is how Harvey Weinstein is a free man now.
Really, I thought he was prison in California. Harvey not going to see daylight again.
None of that matters since the trial will be lost regardless of what Trump's lawyers say or do. The trial was decided in advance, and the only recourse was always going to be an appeal given the overall hostility of New York in general towards Trump in particular.
No surprise that New York denied any attempt to move the trial to another locale, they wanted this result and it will bite them on the ass but it won't matter because they'll have their news cycle locked in and will almost certainly be rewarded by the party for it even if they get kicked out of their current jobs.
They’re going to elect Trump,
If he's convicted, it's a conspiracy and all of Trump's (and his attorneys') bumbling must be forgotten about.
If he's acquitted, then it's true justice and all Trump's (and his attorneys') claims that the entire process is rigged must be forgotten about.
Do you notice a pattern here? No matter what happens, Mr. Trump and everyone around him is reduced to a passive actor in his or her own story. Nothing they do matters. They are never permitted to be held responsible for their own failure (or success).
There is a Pinky and the Brain episode, "Meet John Brain" where Brain runs for president. It's a parody of the Ross Perot candidacy but it could be about Trump. Mainly in how the supporters interpret his off the cuff statements in such over the top ways. At one point Brain mentions that he only fears cats. Being a mouse it makes sense, but the next scene is of one of his supporters saying in reply, "He means the fat cats in Washington DC who waste our tax money!" Or something to that effect. It's worth looking up and viewing.
Can you explain why she was testifying AT ALL?
Had not spoken to Trump since 2007, per her own words.
Knew literally nothing about his business.
Could not come close to connecting Trump to any payment.
So...why was her testimony considered legitimate by the court? Will you argue that courts frequently permit prosecutors to include completely irrelevant testimony? Because you know that is not the case.
Even sullum recognized that it doesn't matter if the story is true or not.
But not the "lawyer" from Chicago.
Why was her testimony allowed? Simple, it's a salacious story that reflects badly on Trump, no truth or relevance beyond that necessary. After her testimony this is being reversed on appeal but that is after November regardless so it will have done it's job regardless.
The NY Appeals court literally just had a case on this type of irrelevant prosecution testimony.
Are you sure you're a lawyer?
The defense could have asked her what she knew about the falsified documents. But they didn't. And they don't dare put Trump on the stand to refute her.
Trump will probably stiff this set of lawyers too.
Yes. They did. She said she didn't know.
MSNBC viewers remain retarded.
They specifically did ask her about that.
CHARLIE HALL!
Stupid, or just ignorant?
Yes
Holy fuck was that ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag.
If the defense was smart, they would have plea bargained this case early on and got it out of the way.
You're being sarcastic, right?
No
In that case—no, there wasn't a chance in hell of a plea bargain. The goal of this case was never to get a conviction. It was to help prevent Trump from being elected by draining his finances and keeping him tied up in the courtroom. A plea bargain would have defeated the purpose.
The case has been rolling around in the courts since Trump ran for president the first time. For about half the time since then Trump was directly in charge of the justice department. He could have done whatever he wanted, but he didn't. Since leaving office, he has done everything legally possible to delay the trial until after the next election but ultimately fell short. He could have just gotten it over with in 2021, but he didn't.
Is he stupid?
No, he could never have "gotten it over with". There was not going to be a settlement.
The case has been rolling around in the courts since Trump ran for president the first time.
No, it hasn't. Federal prosecutors dropped the case in 2019 without ever going to court. Bragg didn't concoct his case until late 2022. Trump wasn't indicted until March of 2023. Bragg's ridiculous "case" is transparently political and was ginned up less than two years ago.
It does depend on what the prosecutors real goal was. He is on record saying that if elected he would "get Trump". If he's keeping an election promise then he wouldn't let a plea bargain happen. He would need a visible media circus trial to fulfill that promise.
While I consider it unlikely given Trumps general attitude and disposition his lawyers may have tried for a plea deal and were gagged by the judge to not speak of it. Hell, the judge seems determined to stop any media leaks of the trial from anyone other than the prosecutors office. The prosecutor wouldn't want anyone to know he refused to plea bargain the case. It would make him out to be even more of a Trump hater than he has already made himself out to be.
I think you summed it up best in the end of your comment. Had the defense moved for a plea bargain the prosecutor would be in a position of having to accept. This is a winnable case but complicated and I don't see the prosecution be able to continue the case with a reasonable plea bargain that treated the charge as a misdemeanor.
Prosecutors these days are so spoiled by plea bargaining that they just aren't any good at winning actual trials.
As I said above, a plea bargain would not have served the political purpose of Persecutor Bragg and was not going to happen.
I will also note that I was surprised that there were not more objections at various times during the testimony….So when you say that, you know, the bell has been rung, the defense has to take some responsibility for that."
-------------------------
"There were many times when you could have objected but didn't," he told Necheles.
---------------
The judge conceded that some details of Daniels' testimony were so needlessly prejudicial that he would have sustained objections to them if the defense had made them.
-----------
Why are Trumps lawyers so bad ? He has had the worst legal teams imaginable for somebody with money.
Blame the victim
Yes. The victim deserves blame for stiffing and firing his better counsel. Some amount of the mess he is in is his own creation (you can argue over the percent if you want).
Yeah. The judge said that. But would he really have done it? How open has he been to the Trump defense team’s objections?
From what was reported most of the defense objections were sustained. Which raises the question of why they did not object more.
Why didn't the judge go after the prosecution for going past his guard rails? Why did the judge blame the defense.
Objecting non stop also has an effect on a jury.
But none of you democrats care about the legal process.
Probably because they know the fix is in so putting in enough objection to make the appeal then letting the judge and prosecution screw the trial probably helps. Besides, if they had objected the judge would side with the prosecution but now this was so far over the line he can't even as a fully partisan hack presiding over a show trial.
I wonder if it has anything to do with DNC shills going after anyone who even mentioned the possibility of being his lawyer.
Nah, couldn’t possibly be the intimidation.
They aren't allowed to make much of a defense. His lawyers practice law in New York, they see where thus is going and do t want to burn bridges with the judges in New York. Remember, even the defense attorneys are "officers of the court" and play golf with these judges and prosecutors. Making a big stink isn't going to help their careers much.
That and Miss Daniel's managed to discredit herself without much help. The judge had to tell her to be less graphic because she was embarrassing him.
Seems like it doesn't really matter what the results of this trial end up being, it's been nonsense from the beginning and the only thing they are really looking for is a bullet point against him during the election itself.
It's obvious Trump won't be getting a fair trial in New York, the DA already ran on a platform of charging him with literally anything they possibly could which on it's own would be enough for an appeal one might imagine.
John Edwards did something similar, arguably much worse given that there was an actual bastard child involved, and skated. They want to ignore that as much as possible. It's working, too, since I've seen exactly zero comparisons to that case despite it being essentially the same thing.
Remember kids, it's only an election finance violation when it's a Republican. There is absolutely no other possible consideration one needs to apply.
It's also important to remember that campaign finance law is absolutely simple when it's a Republican, and incredibly nuanced and complex when it's a Democrat.
Amusingly, this is what some people actually believe.
Edwards was also paying his mistress using campaign funds.
Indeed, and there was much talk at the time about how 'murky' campaign finance law is. Suddenly, it's clear as day. Go figure.
I don't even disagree that campaign finance law is convoluted and insane, but this is also why they don't generally prosecute it either and when they do it quickly becomes a circus.
Look at Swalwell. He uses campaign funds for 5* trips. Not a whisper of wrong doing.
This is not a campaign finance case. It is about falsified business documents. And the Trump lawyers have no defense against that. Which is why they would rather talk about sex.
Bragg hasn't even proved trump new about the payments. Bragg hasn't stated why using description of a legal payment doesn't cover legal payments.
MSNBC viewers remain retarded.
Bragg hasn't even argued which law outside of record keeping was violated.
It is about falsified business documents.
You should be a pal and help Bragg out then. Tell him which law was being violated by what. He seems very confused.
Please keep up. Falsifying business records is only a misdemeanor, and beyond the statute of limitations. So it is also a campaign finance case, because Bragg is (unlawfully) using federal campaign finance law as an excuse to enhance the NY law. NY can prosecute a misdemeanor as a felony if its done in commission of another crime, so Bragg had to find one. Problem is, the feds declined to charge Trump on this, and Bragg doesn't have any authority over federal law, which means an appeal is pretty much a guarantee on just that point alone (and there are plenty of other reasons). Bragg knows he's built a house of cards, that's not the point. The only goal is to hurt Trump as much as possible before the election.
So I'm supposed to believe that Trump a notorious germaphobe had unprotected sex with a porn star?
No, you're not supposed to believe that. You're supposed to believe the narrative that Trump is so evil that even considering voting for him for President taints you with a stain so foul that you will wish you had been branded with a scarlet letter "A" instead!
In Daniels testimony she said that Trump asked her about STD testing and she replied that she was always negative. So, he did check. The question one might ask is which of the pair was in greater danger of being infected. As we know from Covid Trump had little concern about infecting other people.
You seem to be so clueless that you don’t understand the difference between, “he did ask” and “she said that he asked.” Another thing many people seem to be clueless about is the difference between, “It wasn’t about the money, I wanted to get the story out,” and “I wanted to get the story out for money.” Trump was recorded bragging about being able to do whatever he wanted with women because he was a celebrity. I have heard a lot of guys bragging about things that I’m pretty sure they never did, but they weren’t under oath at the time and neither was Trump. Those guys may be jerks (and so is Trump) but political hacks notwithstanding, being a jerk still isn’t criminal.
The original comment asked why a germaphobe like Trump would have sex with a porn star without a condom and I noted that he asked about STD testing. Both the remark about the condom and the STD testing were in Ms. Daniels testimony. You can imply that nothing happened and she lied, but as the article notes that is irrelevant as Trump paid Daniels a large sum of money not to tell the story. One might also ask why such a tight-fisted miser would pay to kill the story.
As for locker room talk, there are many men who do both talk and sexually assault. It's just talk is not a sufficient explanation. In Trump's deposition in the Jean Carroll, Mr. Trump said that historically stars were allowed to get away with sexual assault and abuse. He then went on to say that he considers himself in that class.
Like the Carroll case, the Daniels testimony is he said/she said. Trump's problem is his lousy character and bad testimony.
If the purpose of her testimony were legal then the point raised in the title would be important. Since that is not the purpose of her being called as a witness, this article is also irrelevant. The purpose of this entire trial is to get media and public attention with constant newsfeeds of prurient interest to interfere with the next Presidential election. In that context, her testimony is near perfect. Since the verdict to be rendered by the jury is already a foregone conclusion that has nothing whatever to do with legality or justice or the pertinence or reliability of the testimony and was determined by the Prosecutor in a rabidly anti-Trump jurisdiction, Trump’s only hope is that the strategy is so blatantly personal, vindictive and political that it will backfire in the rest of the country.
The purpose is to keep Trump off the campaign trail.
Actually, it is in his best interests to stay off the campaign trail for the same reason that it is not in his best interests to debate his opponents: he gets far more mileage with his supporters with the narrative that he is being persecuted by the bad guys and he is already in the best possible position to win the election this fall.
It helps that he’s actually being persecuted by the obvious Rand villains.
Trump is in fact on the campaign trail. He is doing a rally in Wildwood, NJ this evening. Supporters have been camped out in line since yesterday morning. He also campaigns every evening after court. He is gaining more and more supporters as this farce of a trial continues.
And, once again, run media cover for the Biden Administration embarrassing itself on the global stage and doing the exact same thing that Trump got impeached for.
It can be two things!
“Pay no attention to the criminal charge of falsifying business records to cover up another crime behind the curtain.”
It is endlessly satisfying to see fantasy and science fiction themes play out in episodes of the latest reality shows, “Real Politicians of Tammany Hall” and “Real Prosecutors of Fulton County.” Although “The Wizard of Oz” was more realistic and entertaining than “People v Donald J. Trump (Criminal)” attempts to spice the case up with salacious gossip of prurient interest to the public seem to be pumping up the trial show's ratings somewhat.
Merchan rejected that argument on Tuesday and again on Thursday, saying the problem that Blanche perceives was largely a result of the defense team's failures during Daniels' testimony and cross-examination
This is false. Merchan even reprimanded the prosecution for going past the weak guard rails he established. But then continued to let them question past the same guard rails.
Merchan then blaming the defense for not objecting more is retarded. And fuck you for defending it Sullum. When a defense objects over and over that too has an effect on the jury. What are they trying to hide after all.
This comes shortly after the Weinstein ruling regarding prejudicial testimony. So fuck merchan. And fuck Sullum for pushing his narrative.
Cohen's payment to Daniels amounted to an excessive campaign contribution (a characterization that Cohen accepted when he pleaded guilty to that offense in 2018),
You mean the plea that included a half dozen other non related felonies that prosecutors rushed to add so idiots like you had a talking point?
When’s the last time you argued a case in front of a jury? Sounds like never.
Appeal to credentials, but whatever. There are no previous cases to be found where this kind of hopscotch bullshit has been attempted.
To what question regarding criminal law or procedure would you like an answer, bitch?
Well, perhaps not this particular brand of blatantly obvious hopscotch bullshit, but the history of American jurisprudence is chock full of biased judges, incompetent district attorneys, investigative and prosecutorial misconduct and unconstitutionally broad and vague statutes. JesseAz seems to be correct that a fair bit of prosecutor misconduct took place in the Cohen case (AKA “ladder climbing”) and that it is not fair to use a guilty plea (also see “plea bargaining”) by a henchman as actual evidence in the case against the henchman’s boss. So, MK Ultra, although those are not questions per se, I would like you to display some of your criminal law and procedure acumen in response to those points.
So, Biden Guy – Suppose I gave you a not-so-hypothetical case of a white racist judge ruling on objections over a white racist prosecutor’s procedure in front of an all white hand-picked jury consisting exclusively of their fellow Ku Klux Klan members in a southern courtroom prosecuting a young black man for his alleged violation of an unconstitutional local law (let’s say marrying a white woman). Would you care to try to compare and contrast your objection to JesseAz’s post with my (hypothetical) case?
And then Sullum dedicates more than half the article to the extraneous and irrelevant salacious details while glossing over the prosecutorial and state abuses.
Unbelievable.
It is not an abuse to prosecute someone for crimes. And there is no doubt that Trump committed at least 34 crimes. And unless you believe Trump's unbelievable denials about the affair that adds a 35th.
Charlie, you've already demonstrated youre retarded. Even your leftist NYT says this case has no basis.
And there is no doubt that Trump committed at least 34 crimes.
Really? Just none at all?
He could shoot someone in the head in broad daylight in the middle of Central Park on daytime television, and the people you’re arguing with would defend him saying anyone who wanted to charge him with murder is a leftist.
They really are that dishonest and dumb.
Post like this are why people give you so much shit, sarc.
To be fair, people still defend Dubya and Obama even after they slaughtered thousands of kids in Iraq and Libya.
Partisan hackery is the rot at the center of our government.
sarcasmic – taking your sarcastic post at face value, not all of the people charliehall is arguing with are defending Trump regardless of his actual crimes. Some of us are defending what little is left of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights after decades of Supreme Court deference to police state authority and near-continuous encroachments by Congress and the Executive Branch on our rights. Trump just happens to be a not-very-sympathetic victim who also did his part to trample on our natural rights.
Some of us are defending what little is left of the Constitution
Perhaps you aren't one of them, but there certainly are a number of people in these comment threads who get suspiciously concerned about the rule of law when Donald Trump is playing defense and cannot not will not abide the idea that perhaps, just maybe, Donald Trump is at least partially responsible for the various messes he finds himself in. For some, "justice" only seems to go one way and rather than accepting that courts are where matters of controversy are settled, the conclusions have already been made.
Sarcasmic seems like he's gotten rather addled by fighting with those people over the years. Hopefully, one day he'll learn they aren't worth it.
It's Sullum so not unbelievable so much as perfectly predictable.
Always remember this is about winning an election, not about winning a trial.
Daniels just testified under oath that Trump committed another crime: Adultery. It is still a misdemeanor in NY.
Quick, arrest everyone in New York!
Trump clearly broke Sharia law.
Time for an honor killing!
charliehall – is it your contention that the testimony of a clearly unreliable witness is all it should take to convict a defendant of a crime? Is it also your contention that adultery should still be a crime? Either? Both? Wow, no wonder the Democratic Socialist Elite chose New York to stage their political show trial of a Republican Nationalist opponent. Maybe Americans would be better off with a few thousand fewer unconstitutionally broad and vague moralistic laws on our books.
lol, well this trial is certainly turning out to be the three ring circus it looked like from the beginning. I wonder if they’ll get around, at some point, to arguing a relevant detail like whether Stormy’s NDA qualifies as election interference. You know, since that’s the key point that decides whether the falsified business record charge is a felony or a misdemeanor that timed out several years ago.
It's not a relevant detail. Election interference doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. There is nothing in the law or the Constitution that forbids telling a story - whether true or false - about a candidate before an election. There is nothing in the law or the Constitution that guarantees that the voters will have access to all - or any - information pertinent to deciding how to vote. Even Russian propaganda doesn't qualify legally as "election interference." An "NDA" cannot withstand subpoena as a witness in a criminal or civil trial either, but its existence can undermine the reliability of the witness.
Is it legally possible for the DOJ to file RICO charges against NYC's Justice Department? If so, things could get interesting if Trump gets back in office.
Based on the Obama and Biden administrations, “Legally Possible” is no longer a concern.
Then that is what it should do.
If I were a state's attorney or a district attorney, I would start charging Democrats using asinine, creative interpretations of criminal law, and I would not let the law, facts, Brady v. Maryland, or the United States Constitution stand in the way. Alvin Bragg and Jack Smith dragged all of us across the line.
The rules have changed.
Do you remember Maraxus?
Because I will never forget Maraxus.
https://www.quora.com/Is-Trump-correct-when-he-said-that-The-answer-is-you-have-no-choice-because-they-re-doing-it-to-us-in-response-to-an-interviewers-question-about-locking-up-his-enemies-Will-Americas-prisons-become-Trumps-Gulags-of/answer/Michael-Ejercito
***STAERT QUOTE***
You’ve asserted that public officials must be held to a higher moral standard than the rest of humanity. First, I’d like to know why that is the case.
She did uphold the law. She was arrested, went to court, pled guilty to the charges (i.e. she accepted responsibility for her actions), and was punished accordingly. She could have pulled a Perry and attempted to use her position to get out of the DUI charge, but instead she had enough integrity to accept responsility for her actions.
See, when we elect a district attorney, we trust them to do one thing: prosecute crimes. So long as they prosecute crimes, and do that properly and well, they’re doing what we asked them to. They are doing the bare minimum of what we expect from them- correctly using the powers of their office to perform the assigned duty. Driving drunk may reflect poorly on the DA’s character and mean they should not have been elected… but it doesn’t mean they have failed to do the actual job the public trusted them to do. We didn’t elect this DA to be sober, we elected them to prosecute cases.
Seriously, she made a bad decision and followed it up by doing the right thing. What’s blowing my fucking mind is apparently we have shitheads on this board that are attempting to justify Rick “The Dick” Perry making a blatant attempt to shove a shill appointee into one of the few effective anti-corruption enforcement agencies in the state of Texas.
Plus, if you actually read my arguments (which I doubt), you would have to notice that IT DOES NOT MATTER whether Lehmberg has lots of integrity or no integrity. Perry is not being charged with “thinking Lehmberg has no integrity.” He is being charged with misusing the power of his office and threatening to misuse taxpayer money, in order to coerce an elected official into acting in a certain way.
It DOES NOT MATTER that you think Perry was justified in doing so because this particular elected official was dishonorable and inferior. It is not Perry’s place to hire or fire Lehmberg, and it is not his place to threaten to defund a law enforcement operation in an attempt to blackmail her into resigning against her will.
Your appeals to “common sense” do not impress me. Give me a good reason why a moral failing, which incidentally has nothing to do with investigating corruption, should automatically disqualify a person from holding office. You assert without cause that this is the case. Please provide evidence that Lehmberg’s DUI has harmed the PIU’s integrity in any way. If you can’t do this without repeating some version of your “DUIs are rly bad guys” silliness, then maybe you should just go away.
And as for The Hammer, that’s true. He did get his conviction overturned by the Texas Supreme Court, an elected body that consists almost entirely of conservative Republicans. They didn’t think DeLay actually did all that stuff, and Texas doesn’t really have much in the way of campaign finance laws anyway. It makes no matter, though. He was still a cancerous growth on Congress’ asscheek, begging for a public fall from grace. And when he got convicted the first time around, we as a nation are better off for it. Ronnie Earle did humanity a favor when he realized that DeLay broke campaign finance laws, and he did us an even greater one when he got DeLay convicted. Whether or not “justice” was actually served against him isn’t so important. The fact that he no longer holds office though? That’s very important.
Of course! And the people on the Travis Commissioner’s Court would have tossed Lehmberg out on her ass a long time ago. They’re not doing it because there are, frankly, more important things at stake. In a state like Texas where the GOP has historically run roughshod over the Dems, they cannot afford to lose powerful positions like this. Considering the number of cases coming out of the PIU, including, incidentally, a Perry-allied ex-official who channeled millions of dollars to some of his big contributors, the Travis DA’s office has more influence than just about any Democrat in the state. If Perry didn’t have the right to appoint her replacement, and he almost assuredly would have appointed a fairly right-wing replacement, I’m sure the Travis County Dems would like to tell Lehmberg to take a short walk off a long pier. Unhappily, there are more important considerations at hand.
***END QUOTE***
Back in 2014, this was an extremely fringe belief. There was no way Maraxus’s ideals could become mainstream.
Now it is clear that the Democratic Party adopted Maraxus’s ideals.
The Democratic Party is the party of Maraxus, now.
In the animated series Gargoyles, there is a character called Demona, whose schtick was vengeance against those who hurt her and her kind.
To deal with Maraxus, we must become the party of Demona!
You may have overlooked or forgotten about the concept of "official immunity." Trump himself is alleging that anything he did while in office is immune from prosecution. Whether true or not, official immunity - both qualified and unqualified - is the prevailing fact in America now and the DoJ will not charge New York officials for any of this.
For the life of my I can't understand why anyone would want to fuck either of them.
I don't always agree with sarc, but when he's right, he's right.
Insert divorced wife and post divorce incel joke here.
A “pansexual” would do both.
Nicely done.
Not necessarily. A Pansexual can be attracted to people regardless of sex or gender, but still have other standards. Trump does NOT meet mine and Stormy looks like she may not be aging well.
Then stop advertising your sexual proclivities. Nobody cares to know about it.
In case you haven't noticed, everybody here knows about every other proclivity here by everybody else.
And where does the "then" come in? From where does your conclusion come?
Most people would not. This case shows that Trump travels in circles with some pretty unsavory people, Daniels, Pecker, and Coehn. The reason is that he is a pretty unsavory person himself.
At least none of them are dead by suicide. Meanwhile, being connected to a Clinton means you have a high chance of dying by suicide -- even shotgun blows to the back of the head --- or by a terrible unexplainable accident.
The Clintons the old fall back. Do you deny that Trump is as unsavory as the people in his orbit?
This: https://www.ebay.com/itm/115252050327 might be why in 2006.
And you let the other one fuck you for $$$.
(There’s probably a joke in there somewhere.)
Fuck him? Hell, I wouldn't want to have a beer with him. He orders steak well done and uses ketchup. He's a barbarian.
As for Ms. Daniels I wouldn't fuck her with a rented cock. I KNOW where she's been, she wrote a book about how many men she's fucked. If only half of them are true stories that turns me off right there.
She’s awesome. Willing to endure death threats and abuse from right wing crybabies who can’t couch any criticism of their fucking precious Dear Leader.
Bad idea to use an oxymoron as your label.
Awesome in what way? Awesome in that she denied the affair (long before she got paid) and then changed her story on the eve of the election? Awesome in that she concocted a story with no evidence other than her word, but its (D)ifferent so we have to believe her? Awesome in that she admits to hating the defendant, so her motivation is immediately suspect?
She has ISSUED more death threats than she will ever receive.
All this over an accounting category and $130,000.
Wonder how many MILLIONS are getting wasted on this witch-hunt.
I guess the best thing about being an 'armed-theft' ?public? servant is having all the time in the world to be as unproductive as possible.
If I were a state’s attorney or a district attorney, I would start charging Democrats using asinine, creative interpretations of criminal law, and I would not let the law, facts, Brady v. Maryland, or the United States Constitution stand in the way. Alvin Bragg and Jack Smith dragged all of us across the line.
Read my comment above,
https://reason.com/2024/05/10/the-details-of-stormy-daniels-story-about-sex-with-trump-are-legally-irrelevant/?comments=true#comment-10557006
What is the limit? People are upset that DAs don't charge when shoplifting is less than $1K. You could make the case that they are saving money also.
Shoplifting is an actual crime.
So is falsifying records. Look it up it is on the books. So, again what is the limits for prosecuting?
Do you think accidentally walking out of a store with a lollipop is the same thing as committing mass murder or is that standard only applicable to Trump?
Moderation4 - I was with you right up until this. The government should have absolutely no involvement in the business records or any other aspect of business conduct. The government should not have business licensing authority, the government should not tax businesses in the first place, and if there was ever any excuse for government to protect corporate investors from liability in order to form capital ventures, it ended around 1840. Contract and other business disputes should be settled by arbitration, not in government courts and the public has no legitimate interest in the private affairs of private contractors. Americans would be much better off with many fewer laws and much more free market enterprise. If you choose to go into business with someone else, it should be at your own risk.
Making a fantastic confection of a crime by sticking together several non-crimes is certainly past the limit.
Do you think under $1K shoplifting would yield the endless circus-courts Trump is going through? Or might such massive endless court cases give the prosecution the common sense to say it's just not worth it.
TJJ2000 – unfortunately that’s part of the problem here. Prosecutors deciding what crimes are “worth it” and what crimes are “just not worth it.” First of all, shoplifting is a crime, but assuming you agree with the principle that some crimes are more violently dangerous than others, shoplifting is a relatively minor crime compared to, say, first degree murder. Equal justice under the law DEMANDS that all laws be clear and well-defined. It’s my opinion that plea bargains and guilty pleas should all be banned. Unconstitutionally broad and vague laws should be struck down. ALL crimes should be investigated using the best possible due process procedures with investigators and prosecutors held to the highest standards. ALL defendants should be brought before a judge and or a grad jury to consider the evidence and either uphold or dismiss the charges. The prosecutor should have no say in whether to pursue or drop cases, and no incentive to coerce or trick suspects. ALL charges should be tried before a judge or a judge and jury (at the defendant’s option) after striking down every law against sex, drugs, gambling and other so-called vices.
Or maybe such disputable cases should be closed book cases instead of endlessly throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what might stick. The second part of that being the very definition of a witch-hunt versus enforcing the law.
Stormy Daniels is legally irrelevant to the charges. If it could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the first time Trump had heard of her was when he paid his attorney to cover the NDA it would be legally irrelevant. The CLAIMED crime is falsifying business records to conceal the payment. Even that is only a crime if the payment should have been considered a campaign expense.
If the rule of law was a concern of the court, Stormy Daniels would have been banned from the courtroom and subject to a gag order.
So, why is she on the stand?
The opening statement of Trump's lawyer provides a clue.
It would still be a crime if it wasn't a campaign expense because the fraudulent entries mischaracterized a non-deductible personal expense as a business expense eligible for a tax deduction.
But that crime would be a misdemeanor, on which the statute of limitations has already expired.
Not quite. Falsifying business records is only a crime in New York if it is for the purpose of covering up another actual crime. Stormy Daniels' testimony is pertinent to whether Trump committed the other crime: the violation of Federal campaign money rules. Since Federal prosecutors declined to charge Trump with the Federal violation it will be very hard for New York prosecutors to prove that the falsification of business records, if any, was for the purpose of covering up a crime that he was never charged with.
Just to be clear; Trump was unindicted co conspirator #1 in Cohen's federal case. The only reason he wasn't charged was because he was the sitting president. DOJ policy prevented his charging. His hand picked Attorney General's weren't going to authorize his charging in any event. People keep citing this "federal prosecutors declined to charge' line as if there was a lack of evidence exonerating to Trump.
It's not. There was plenty of evidence. The same evidence this jury in New York is hearing right now.
The charges from Bragg are new and different from the charges in the Cohen case. It is not the same case.
subject to a gag order.
It would probably be pretty hard to make her gag.
Personally, I think President Trump exemplifies family values. There's nothing more family-friendly than having unprotected sex with a potentially disease-ridden porn star while your wife sits at home nursing your 4 month old infant.
Well, if the "family" in question is the Kennedy family then yeah, that's family values.
The family was the Trump family. He wouldn't have paid her $130,00.00 if she wasn't telling the truth.
EdG - Maybe I missed something? Were you present when the alleged unprotected sex with a porn star happened? Or are you relying on the unsupported statement of said disease-ridden porn star after she accepted hush money? Maybe the prosecution should call you as a witness too? Or maybe you could try to display a little less obviously your manifest Trump Derangement Syndrome?
Men don't pay $130,000.00 in hush money unless there's something to hush. Trump paying that money proves she's telling the truth.
Sure, sure. And every bail amount paid is an admission of guilt. /s
Happy Mother's Day, Melania! (Did you remember to get something for the nannies and wet nurses who raised Barron in your "Republican family values" marriage?)
And for Mother's Day, Pres. Joetato will have his diaper changed by one of the White House staff instead of his trailer trash wife.
The further these phony charges and trial continue, the more they fall apart.
Lawfare, plain and simple. Just remember, if they can do it to D.J.Trump, they can and will do it to anyone they consider political enemies. This is worse than Nixon's White House enemies list. I remember bumper stickers mocking Nixon. Never before in America's history have we witnessed this nation sink to such a low state as to persecute political enemies in the manner that's taking place. It is beyond shameful and disgusting.
This is no different than the show trials of the old Lenin and Stalinist eras, just before the victims were sent off to the gulags or simply taken out and executed.
It is plain to anyone with more than two brain cells: the Biden administration is filled with radical left wing extremists and post modernist neo-Marxists and they are implementing their plans to eradicate America and replace it with a Marxist/communist regime.
Although I agree that the current situation has deteriorated recently, I take exception to both your one-sided characterization and your opinion that America has never before witnessed such low levels in our history. Successive administrations - both Democratic and Republican - have each, in turn, sunk further into the morass in retaliation for the previous administration's abuses over the last three decades or more. I leave it as an exercise for the student to determine which of the numerous previous government corruption scandals might have represented lower sinkings.
"I leave it as an exercise for the student to determine which of the numerous previous government corruption scandals might have represented lower sinkings."
Which is worse? Reagan's selling arms to Iran and sending along the proceeds to drug dealers in Nicaragua, or Biden's sending his CIA chief to Oman to coordinate and approve of Iran's recent and unprecedented attack on Israel?
"It is beyond shameful and disgusting."
The comparison between Trump and Nixon is shameful and disgusting. Nixon never fucked prostitutes or porn stars, and never paid them hush money. Even if he had, he would certainly have had the sense to use a condom, as any family man with a loving wife and children would.
How low of you to stoop to smearing America's greatest president of the 20th century in your efforts to defend Trump.
Sullum has a point. Then again, name three passable non-hookers who would willingly have sex with a Trumpanzee MAGAt. Women (aside from Greene Teeth) cross the street to avoid Grabbers of Pussy and Mises Caucasian bigots. Small wonder Christian National Socialism targets them for Nietzschean enslavement.
Reason spending time and money on this kind of pointless Republican nonsense is why I am cancelling by full subscription. Nothing still on Roger Forston (that I can find) but you have time for this.