Embracing a Federalist Approach to Abortion, Trump Condemns Democrats As 'Radical'
The former and would-be president is keen to avoid alienating voters who reject both kinds of extremism on the issue.

In a Truth Social video posted this morning, Donald Trump says abortion policy should be left to the states. The result, he noted, will be a wide range of restrictions, with different states drawing lines at different points in pregnancy. Although he does not say which cutoff he prefers, he has previously said Florida's "heartbeat" law, which applies around six weeks of gestation and prohibits most abortions, is "a terrible thing and a terrible mistake." And in the Truth Social video, he says that "like Ronald Reagan, I'm strongly in favor of exceptions for rape, incest, and life of the mother."
By ruling out federal abortion restrictions, Trump provoked criticism from pro-life activists who favor a national ban. But those activists will never support Joe Biden, who not only views the 2022 reversal of Roe v. Wade as a grave injustice but favors legislation that would re-establish a federal right to abortion. Trump is clearly more worried about alienating voters who oppose broad restrictions on abortion, which surveys suggest is most of them.
During a Meet the Press interview last September, Trump, who once described himself as "pro-choice," declined to say whether he would "sign federal legislation that would ban abortion at 15 weeks." But he said he would "come together with all groups" to arrive at "something that's acceptable," implying that he was open to the idea of federal restrictions. Now he is saying "the states will determine [abortion policy] by vote or legislation, or perhaps both, and whatever they decide must be the law of the land," meaning "the law of the state." The bottom line, he says, is respecting "the will of the people."
Reversing Roe, Trump argues, served that end by freeing states to regulate abortion as they see fit. Through his Supreme Court appointments, he brags, "I was proudly the person responsible for the ending of" Roe. That result, he claims, was "something that all legal scholars" on "both sides" favored.
That is obviously not accurate. While it is true that some supporters of abortion rights criticized Roe's reasoning, that does not necessarily mean they thought the Constitution was irrelevant to the debate. As an appeals court judge, for example, the late Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg argued that Roe went too far, too fast, and she favored grounding a constitutional right to abortion in the 14th Amendment's guarantee of equal protection rather than an unenumerated right to privacy or bodily autonomy. But Trump's claim of bipartisan agreement that Roe was wrongly decided reflects his attempt to align his position with what he thinks most Americans want.
In the latest Gallup poll, 52 percent of Americans described themselves as "pro-choice," while 44 percent identified as "pro-life." Thirty-four percent said abortion should be "legal under any circumstances," compared to 13 percent who said it should be "illegal in all circumstances." A majority (51 percent) said abortion should be "legal only under certain circumstances," a view that encompasses a wide range of policies.
That majority position could describe a broad ban with the exceptions that Trump supports, for example, or a much more liberal policy that generally allows abortion through 20 weeks of gestation, which would cover nearly all abortions. Even the 15-week limit that Florida's Supreme Court recently upheld would allow something like 96 percent of abortions. By contrast, Florida's "heartbeat" law, which will take effect unless voters approve an abortion-rights ballot initiative in November, covers a much larger share of abortions. According to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), 55 percent of abortions are performed after six weeks. The ban also would apply to many abortions performed in the sixth week.
All of those policies could be described as making abortion "legal only under certain circumstances." But Gallup also found that 47 percent of Americans thought abortion should be legal in "any" or "most" circumstances, which would rule out the law that Trump deemed "a terrible mistake." Another 36 percent said abortion should be legal "only in a few circumstances," which could mean a six-week ban or even a general prohibition with limited exceptions.
"When asked about the legality of abortion at different stages of pregnancy," Gallup reports, "about two-thirds of Americans say it should be legal in the first trimester (69%), while support drops to 37% for the second trimester and 22% for the third. Majorities oppose abortion being legal in the second (55%) and third (70%) trimesters."
We also know that even voters in red states, expressing their preferences at the ballot box rather than in surveys, have opposed stricter abortion policies. In August 2022, a little more than a month after the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, Kansas voters overwhelmingly rejected a ballot initiative that would have overriden a 2019 ruling in which the state Supreme Court held that the Kansas Constitution protects a right to abortion. That November, Montana voters rejected an initiative that would have recognized "infants born alive" after an "attempted abortion" as "legal persons" and imposed criminal penalties for failing to provide them with "medical care." Kentucky voters, meanwhile, rejected an initiative declaring that the state constitution does not guarantee a right to abortion. And in Ohio last November, voters approved an initiative amending the state constitution to protect "reproductive decisions," including abortion.
More generally, Democrats seem to have reaped an electoral benefit by emphasizing abortion rights, boosting turnout among voters inclined to support them. That factor helps explain why Democrats performed better than expected in the 2022 midterm elections and why they won important state races in Kentucky, Virginia, and Pennsylvania last fall.
Dobbs is "wreaking electoral havoc, shifting partisan calculations, and calling into question balances of federal and state power," Reason's Elizabeth Nolan Brown noted last year. "It's also ushering in a new level of representative democracy in determining the limits of reproductive freedom—along with a backlash to the process that could reach far past policies surrounding abortion." The upshot, she suggested, "could better reflect the underlying political reality that American opinions about abortion are complex, nuanced, and not terribly extreme."
In this context, you can see why Trump's position, which embraces a federalist approach without endorsing any particular policy aside from rape, incest, and life-of-the-mother exceptions, makes political sense. It also jibes with what the late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, a longtime Roe foe, imagined would happen after that decision was overturned. Scalia complained that Roe "destroyed the compromises of the past, rendered compromise impossible for the future, and required the entire issue to be resolved uniformly, at the national level."
In Dobbs, Justice Samuel Alito agreed with Scalia that the Constitution does not limit how far the government can go in regulating abortion. But his majority opinion was ambiguous in describing what would happen next. "It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people's elected representatives," he wrote. That formulation, which could refer to members of Congress as well as state legislators, left open the possibility that "the entire issue" would be "resolved uniformly, at the national level." This is the possibility that Trump has now joined Scalia in rejecting.
Although we should not credit Trump with caring much about what the Constitution requires, the legal rationale for national abortion legislation has always been dubious. The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003, for instance, prohibits certain kinds of late-term abortions "in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce"—an attempt to justify the law by invoking the power to regulate interstate commerce. As Independence Institute scholar David Kopel and University of Tennessee law professor Glenn Reynolds have noted, that language is baffling "to any person not familiar with the Commerce Clause sophistries of twentieth century jurisprudence," since "it is not really possible to perform an abortion 'in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce'" unless "a physician is operating a mobile abortion clinic on the Metroliner."
When Sen. Lindsey Graham (R–S.C.) proposed a 15-week federal abortion ban in 2022, he invoked the 14th Amendment's guarantees of due process and equal protection. Those guarantees apply to "any person," which in Graham's view includes fetuses (or, as he prefers, "unborn children"). Although some abortion opponents have long favored that interpretation, the Supreme Court explicitly rejected it in Roe and has yet to revisit the issue.
Many of Graham's fellow Republicans were dismayed by his attempt to renationalize the abortion issue. "I don't think there's an appetite for a national platform here," said Sen. Shelley Moore Capito (R–W.Va.). "I'm not sure what [Graham is] thinking here. But I don't think there will be a rallying around that concept."
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R–Ky.) likewise said most of his Republican colleagues "prefer this be handled at the state level." Those Republicans included Sen. John Cornyn (R–Texas), who said "there's obviously a split of opinion in terms of whether abortion law should be decided by the states." He added that "my preference would be for those decisions to be made on a state-by-state basis."
Graham's bill, which attracted just nine co-sponsors, never made it out of committee. And now Trump has made it clear that he opposes such legislation.
Biden, meanwhile, continues to support legislation that would renationalize the abortion issue in the opposite direction. A 2022 bill, for example, would have prohibited states from banning or regulating abortion prior to "viability," which nowadays is generally said to occur around 23 or 24 weeks into a pregnancy. It failed by a 49-to-51 vote in the Senate.
That bill would have gone even further than Roe and its progeny, which allowed restrictions on pre-viability abortions as long as they did not impose an "undue burden" on the right to terminate a pregnancy. And it would have overriden regulations that most Americans seem to favor.
The bill's sponsor, Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D–Conn.), did not even bother to provide a constitutional pretext. But a different version of the bill, which the House passed in 2021, framed it as an exercise of the power to regulate interstate commerce:
Abortion restrictions substantially affect interstate commerce in numerous ways. For example, to provide abortion services, health care providers engage in interstate commerce to purchase medicine, medical equipment, and other necessary goods and services. To provide and assist others in providing abortion services, health care providers engage in interstate commerce to obtain and provide training. To provide abortion services, health care providers employ and obtain commercial services from doctors, nurses, and other personnel who engage in interstate commerce and travel across State lines.
The same sort of capacious Commerce Clause reasoning, of course, also could justify national restrictions on abortion, as in the case of the Partial-Abortion Ban Act. Since Democrats take it for granted that Congress has the authority to legislate in this area, they are opening the door to federal policies they would abhor, contingent on which party happens to control the legislative and executive branches.
Marjorie Dannenfelser, president of Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America, said she was "deeply disappointed" by Trump's unilateral repudiation of a national solution to the abortion issue. That position, she complained, "cedes the national debate to the Democrats who are working relentlessly to enact legislation mandating abortion throughout all nine months of pregnancy." If they are successful, she warned, "they will wipe out states' rights."
But the same could be said of Republicans who are determined to impose a national abortion ban, and Trump's rejection of that approach reinforces his argument that he is a moderate compared to Biden and other Democrats. "It must be remembered that the Democrats are the radical ones on this [issue]," he says in the Truth Social video, "because they support abortion up to and even beyond the ninth month." He wants voters to know he is repelled by "the concept of having an abortion in the later months and even execution after birth."
Leaving aside Trump's dubious claim that Democrats favor infanticide, there is a kernel of truth to his gloss. According to Gallup, 60 percent of Democrats say abortion should be "legal under any circumstances." And under Blumenthal's bill, states would have been barred from banning abortion even after viability "when, in the good-faith medical judgment of the treating health care provider, continuation of the pregnancy would pose a risk to the pregnant patient's life or health." That is a vague and potentially broad exception, especially if "health" is read to cover mental as well as physical health.
At the same time, Trump's focus on late-term abortions elides the reality of when the procedure is typically performed. According to the CDC's data, more than 80 percent of abortions are performed prior to the 10th week, while just 4 percent are performed at 16 weeks or later. Trump's emphasis on "abortion up to and even beyond the ninth month" (whatever that might mean) also obscures the extent to which he disagrees with voters who favor bans that cover most or nearly all abortions. But it aligns him with the views expressed by most Americans, who generally favor some restrictions while opposing a complete ban.
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“Whatever that might mean”
Oh please.
Oh please, if'n ye are gonna SAY something, PLEASE tell us twat ye are saying! "Stuff and stuff is stuffy,except when it is SNOT?" Is THAT twat ye are saying?
Or... "I am ONE Smart MotherFucker, and if ye can SNOT divine twat I am saying, through my depleted brainless drivel... Then shit must be YOUR fault!"
Although we should not credit Trump with caring much about what the Constitution requires, the legal rationale for national abortion legislation has always been dubious.
TRANSLATION: I agree with Trump in this case, but still think he's an ass.
It is amazing. Sullum can't help it. Federalism was always the correct stance. Trump has surprisingly acted as a federalist. This was even seen under Covid when the left demanded mandates and federal lockdowns.
And as for his other complaint, yes democrats are radical on the position of abortion. 2/3rds of polls say the 20 week limit is a good compromise. It confirms with most of Europe as well. But they demand until the birth canal fairy appears limits. They even demand federal funds for abortion tourism. These are radical propositions.
Sullim is a sad and broken man in regards to Trump.
The Federalist disagrees that Federalism is the best answer. They are pissed that Trump won't advocate for a federal level ban. Seems the man can't make anyone happy.
"Federalism was always the correct stance."
No, the correct stance is individual liberty. The government shouldn't be involved at all. Not the federal government, nor the state government.
Establishing when a fetus achieves the necessary autonomy to be considered an individual is where the government's involvement should start and end. Everything else (IVF, abortion, whether behavior leading to miscarriage is criminal, etc.) would be resolved by that.
RE: Establishing when a fetus achieves the necessary autonomy to be considered an individual
>>>>
Yes
According to the 14th, a Constitutional person is:
* born
or
* naturalized
There is no right to exist
inside another Human Being.
Another example: Leaving aside Trump's dubious claim that Democrats favor infanticide, there is a kernel of truth to his gloss.
How is it a dubious claim when blue states have written it into law? Kernel of truth? It is a fact that needs no gloss.
Which US state has enacted a law making infanticide (post birth abortion) legal?
MadeUpBullShitisStanistanistan, NorthButtFuckistan, East WingNutGinia, Californicuntoria, South Stormy Spermifornia, Howareyedoinia, Baked All-Spastica, AND Tranniformia... Just HOW many examples do ye NEED?!?!? (Ooopoops, I did forget MyTribeRULESandYourTribeDroolsifFornia).
Illinois has stated that it allows babies that survive abortions to be killed
That sounds wholesome.
Who applies for that job?
Probably not many... HOWEVER there are MANY right-wing wrong-nuts right HERE in these comments, who will encourage that newborn to COMMIT SUICIDE, if he or she (newborn) has WRONG political opinions!!! These death-loving hypocrites are servants and serpents of the Evil One!
That's a mercy killing. Any baby surviving the process isn't going to have good long term prospects. Not to mention if the kid lived and found out his mom tried to abort him and failed he would become a fucking serial killer. It's one thing to wonder if your parents love you or not. It's another thing if the bitch tried to kill you once already.
Interesting...there's plenty of people who don't want to execute *actual* serial killers. So on what basis do we execute potential *future* serial killers?
Sure, a kid could find out that his mother wanted him dead and still become a decent person. But the odds would be against it. Look how screwed up kids get with parents who may have actually wanted them. Knowing your mom tried to kill you isn't something most folks can just walk away from.
Just to be clear, you're endorsing infanticide, which is beyond what even Democrats will openly admit to supporting?
I'm saying that if you try to abort a baby and the abortion somehow spits out a "live" baby who has a damn slim shot of surviving then yes, end what is likely to be a miserable life.
Back in the supposed "good old days" before we became a lawsuit obsessed society doctors would kill a deformed baby as it was coming out of the womb. It was a standard procedure that they didn't even tell the mother about. Was that infanticide? Probably. But it saved the family from having to deal with a deformed child and a child from growing up as a freak of nature.
I know you don't get this but some lives just aren't worth living. We used to understand that.
If somehow the abortion spits out a healthy baby with ten toes, ten fingers, one nose, two eyes and is free of disfiguring scars then you've got a debate on your hands.
My argument would be to let it live. But I've seen the pictures you people shove in the faces of women trying to get into a planned parenthood. The results of an abortion look like they went through a chipper/shreader. That's not a life worth living.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/09/27/the-only-reason-i-am-alive-is-the-fact-that-the-abortionist-had-not-yet-arrived-at-work/
Do you ever try to validate your blind opinions? Just curious.
And other stories for when you say it was a single story.
https://humandefense.com/meet-born-alive-abortion-survivors/
So you can find a few good apples. It doesn't mean everyone is going to turn out great after mom tired to kill them.
Look at all the screwed up kids out there, most of them only suspect their parents hate them.
But you think knowing their mom tried to kill them builds character. Interesting.
hey - you seem to be extrapolating from your own mommy issues.
How about some studies that show serial killer proclivities amonst the adopted.
Actually adopted kids are more likely to suffer abuse at the hands of the adoptive father. One of the reasons I am opposed to same sex couples adopting kids.
We have a lot of stuff happening below the conscious level. Smell is a big one. We can try to convince ourselves that an adopted child is our kid but the nose can smell the difference and deep down we reject the adopted child as being someone else's kid.
But that's not the point. I'm talking about the business of a mother who legitimately tried to kill her baby being required to take that baby home. Having parents who don't love you is one thing. Plenty of kids are fucked up by that situation. Having a parent who wanted you dead is a going to be a whole different level of fucked up.
I suspect there are few such studies available since failed abortions can't be a common occurrence. With all the drugs and power tools involved I doubt it happens often enough for a study to be done. Not to mention such a study wouldn't change your mind, you'd call it biased if it didn't agree with you.
"Rev Arthur L kuckland
Illinois has stated that it allows babies that survive abortions to be killed"
Why do you Evil-One-worshitting, EVIL liars LIE so much?
https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocNum=4304&GAID=15&DocTypeID=HB&LegId=123399&SessionID=108&GA=101
Short Description: INFANT BORN ALIVE PROTECTION
Synopsis As Introduced
Creates the Infant Born Alive Protection Act. Provides that any physician who intentionally performs an abortion when there is a reasonable likelihood or possibility of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb shall utilize the method most likely to preserve the life and health of the fetus, and that failure to do so is a Class 3 felony. ... etc. ...
That's not a law. That is a bill that never even made it to a committee hearing.
"Session Sine Die" means the session adjourned.
Well, at least some members of the Illinois legislature tried to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of what lying poster “Rev Arthur L kuckland" tried to LIE to us about! Infanticide is already illegal in all of the USA anyway!
It is all grandstanding! If you oppose my bill to outlaw slavery and infanticide (with a bunch of bullshit other crap thrown in on the sides of the bill, like requiring funeral rituals for aborted blastocysts), then CLEARLY you are in favor of slavery and infanticide! And the wingnuts, like the useful idiots that they are, all fall in line with the stupid, manipulative lies!
14A: "All persons born..."
That's the beginning clause. A subsequent clause says "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property..."
So no state shall deprive any PERSON of life. It doesn't say any person born of life.
So the debate is over whether the fetus is a person or not. I personally don't think a 1-day zygote is a person, in which the 14th would apply, but would be inclined to agree that a 9-month fetus is a person, who can't have its life taken away or deprived of.
It's similar to how the 2nd Amendment starts out in the first clause talking about the militia, and in the 2nd clause specifically mentions the right of the "people." Leftist try saying, unless you're in the militia, the 2nd doesn't apply. That's an incorrect interpretation, just as I'd argue you pointing out the language of the first clause of the 14th mentioning "born" doesn't negate the later clause that only talks about person (without adding "born").
"So no state shall deprive any PERSON of life. It doesn’t say any person born of life."
Legally, logically, and morally a pre-viable fetus isn't a person. If something is incapable of existing as a separate individual, it isn't endowed with individual rights. As of now it is even further along, requiring live birth, but nothing before viability makes sense.
"That’s an incorrect interpretation"
So assuming all the words in a law or amendment is "incorrect" is the way to go? Ignoring any words that don't conform to your preferences is perfectly OK?
I prefer to interpret legal things as meaning what they say. Anything else turns laws into suggestions and the Constitution into an op-ed.
I made it clear the crux of the part about depriving life is what is a person? I don’t have the answer. But to use the word “born” from the first part to mean person in the later clause means “born person” is stealing a base. That would be the incorrect interpretation I referred to. Just as someone saying the first clause of the 2nd Amendment mentioning “militia” negates the right to keep and bear arms for the people would be an incorrect interpretation of that Amendment.
Yes, the Democrats have been looking for is less a right to end a pregnancy, than a right to a dead child by trying to write into law that a child that survives an abortion has no legal protections.
Citation please! Or does it give you a “lie boner” to tell lies, ye Servant and Serpent of the Evil One?
PS, I bet that there have been a few republicans here and there that have committed murder! And even been convicted of the same! Does that mean that the Rethugglican Church supports murder?
https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/the-facts-on-the-born-alive-debate/
"Democratic Sen. Tim Kaine argued that the bill was unnecessary, as a 2002 born-alive bill had “reaffirmed” that “infanticide is already illegal in every state.” Kaine said in a statement: “I support that law, which is still in effect. There is no need for additional federal legislation on this topic. “
Right-wing wrong-nuts trying to play "gotcha", and LYING, as usual!!!!
Do you truly believe that the majority of Democrats, Independents, and Republicans who are pro-choice support the most extreme position that you outline? Or are you pretending that they are all baby killers who love abortion and want to see all fetuses aborted?
Does he not remember the former Democrat governor of Virginia talking about what would happen if a baby survived an abortion.
I don't remember that. I do remember then-governor Northam talking about what would happen in cases where the fetus was non-viable or so malformed as to be unlikely to survive more than a matter of hours or perhaps days. The "conversations" he was suggesting that a woman or couple would have with their doctors is how to best ease the suffering of the doomed infant.
By the way, it isn't euthanasia to forgo extraordinary, yet futile efforts to keep someone alive and instead allow nature to take its course. The common euphemism I hear these days is that doctors can't save someone, so they suggest doing what they can to make the person "comfortable."
But hey, it is far more effective at portraying pro-choice politicians as extremists if you ignore the meaning and context of what Northam said and misrepresent him as having endorsed infanticide.
Conservatives don't like euthanasia all that much either. They consider it some weird form of going against the will of God. Somehow the state deciding to kill someone is ok but a terminally ill patient deciding to end it before the really horrible pain kicks in isn't. Hell, they don't even want the terminally ill to have access to the really good drugs. Suffering is somehow good for the soul I guess.
Ya, saw this coming (re: reason). Too much TDS in a lot of these writers. He could give them their libertarian paradise on a silver platter and they would grit their teeth and begrudgingly write articles with the gist of “OK…I guess he did kind of maybe decent, this time…”
Doesn't everyone think Trump is an asshole? I voted for the man twice and knew he was an asshole because my wife watched The Apprentice. I consider him the best choice for President but I'd never rent an apartment from the man.
Media celebrity is a version of a magnifying glass with an editorial cartoon lense. It magnifies and distorts only the most obvious features of the person. We would all (most of us, anyhow) look like A-holes if we were interesting enough for the media to showcase.
Really? The guy has been in the full light of the media for my entire life. He's always been an abrupt person who doesn't worry about a person's feelings. Even when the media and Hollywood still loved him he couldn't be edited to look like anything else than a New York asshole. The only time he wasn't an asshole was his cameo in one of the Home Alone movies.
I consider him the best choice for President but I’d never rent an apartment from the man.
The logic of this escapes me. You wouldn’t trust him to be your landlord, but you trust him with running the executive branch of the whole country? What it really sounds like to me, is that you expect that he wouldn’t be likely to do you any harm as President, even though you think that he is too dishonest and/or incompetent to manage an apartment building without causing harm to the tenants.
First off, I said that in the context of him being an asshole. I've had assholes for landlord's before. I didn't like it very much. Thus I wouldn't want one of the biggest assholes in western civilization as a landlord.
As president? Fuck yeah. We assholes deserve representations. Dick Heads, Backstabbing Cunts, Suck Up Butt Munchers and Cheep Whores have had plenty of representation in government, the time for us assholes has come.
Also I think the world these days doesn't need a polite diplomat of a president. It's a fucking shithole out there filled with people who hate us for what our CIA and Military have done to them. Those chickens are coming home to roost and we need a no bullshit asshole to talk with those psychos.
The only better choice would be the corpse of Ronald Reagan. Then the world would know for sure we are nuts and nobody will know what crazy shit we will do next. Shoot a missile at one of our ships? Fuckit. Nuke the bastards. Whose next?
It's a crazy fucked up world. Some of it is the fault of our government. We can't have a president who sucks terrorist cock. We need an asshole who won't take shit off anyone. Trump is that man for better or worse.
There is no rationale whatsoever for any denial of individual rights for women. Comstockism sought to strip women of rights for the heinous crime of attempting to run for office and vote in the 1872 election after reading 14A and 15A. Book-burning Republicans larded on victimless "felony" laws with asset forfeiture and--SURPRISE--the economy collapsed in Panic and Depression that same 1873. GOP thugs got beaten even after freeing KKK murderers but still had to steal election at gunpoint after losing. Now there is 19A!
What? How can Trump be a moderate?
Well in Sullum's description I'm led to believe that he's cynical moderate pretender because he read a poll somewhere. Or something. See? I did that in two sentences. It took Jacob a thousand words. This is why I'll never be a journolist.
Moderate?
Donnie is a power-obsessed authoritarian who wants to be dictator with military parades and prisons for those who oppose him.
He is more like that fat little Korean than anyone else.
Why do have a 2 in your handle?
Is there a story behind that?
SPB finds out Trump was Pro-Choice and got a slap-in-the-face.
That's why the De-Regulator is the Authoritarian dictator. /s
Weird, he had 4 years to govern and never did any of that.
His foes have worked tirelessly to see that anyone associated with him goes to jail though.
Confession by projection, again?
You’re talking to a person who posted links to CP.
It’s amazing how long this debate can drag on without anyone thinking, “Hey; What about an Individual Right to Fetal Ejection?”.
After all; isn't that what all the fuss is about. The supposed ?killing?. Well, just take the believed 'killing' out of the equation.
It doesn’t take a rocket-scientist to realize…
If you cannot support baby freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun forced reproduction.
There is no such thing as a ‘right’ that isn’t inherent.
That wouldn't be a ‘right’; it would be an ‘entitlement’.
"We" (whoever the "we" are in any given case) have the "rights" that we have earned and defended for ourselves. If fartilized egg cells (of ANY species!) want some "rights", they need to...
'A) Go out and get themselves a JOB (and also a haircut, but that one's just a nice-to-have side option), selling goods and services to willing customers!
...and...
'B) Buy themselves some up-to-date and tastefully-designed weapons with the proceeds of said job! It is NOT all that hard to do!!! (Unless you're a slacker).
Beyond that, “rights” is just fancy talk for “y’all should be obeying MEEE and MY Opinions on what YOU should and should not be doing!”
Go to North Korea and tell all of the oppressed over there, ALL about their “rights”, and see how much good comes out of it! But be sure to pay ALL of your own expenses, for this utterly futile effort!
"Go to North Korea and tell all of the oppressed over there, ALL about their “rights”, and see how much good comes out of it!"
That the North Korean government does not protect its cictizens rights means that it is an unjust governmment, not that those rights dod not exist. You are positing that rights are conditional and granted by government, which is about as anti-American a concept as a can be,
Did I praise North Korea, or did I say this:
Beyond that, “rights” is just fancy talk for “y’all should be obeying MEEE and MY Opinions on what YOU should and should not be doing!”
I want you to be "free from sin", so therefor I will tell you which church to attend, when and where, and turn your women into womb slaves! We can ALWAYS "spin" our power-lust, and call shit something other than twat shit is, which is power-lust!
I think abortion is a vile and disgusting concept. The only thing that would be worse is asking government to insure it doesn't happen. Government has a record of fucking up things and making them worse. War on Poverty from Johnson? We have poor people coming out of our ears. Poverty won. War on Drugs? You can buy drugs in prison. Drugs won. War on Terror? Americans are afraid to crawl out from under their beds. Terror won. If we ask for a War on Abortion I fear somehow men will be having abortions in 20 years.
Alright, that last line has me cracking up.
I think Ronald Reagan said it best, or maybe a speechwriter of his said it best, "If government is the answer, it must have been a stupid question."
Conservatives seem to forget that quote when it comes to recreational drugs, abortion and a handful of other issues.
"Although we should not credit Trump with caring much about what the Constitution requires..."
BLASPHEMY!!!
The Meeting of the Right Rightist Minds will now come to Odor!
Years ago by now, Our Dear Leader announced to us, that He may commit murder in broad daylight, and we shall still support Him! So He Has Commanded, and So Must Shit be Done!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/24/donald-trump-says-he-could-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters
And now, oh ye Faithful of the Republican Church, Shit Has Become Known Unto us, that Shit is also in His Power and Privilege Ass Well, to murder the USA Constitution in broad daylight. Thus He Has Spoken, and Thus Must Shit Be Done! Thou shalt Render Unto Trump, and simply REND the USA Constitution, and wipe thine wise asses with shit! Do NOT render unto some moldering old scrap of bathroom tissue! Lest we be called fools, or worse!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Proud Boys, STAND with TRUMP, and stand by! And if ye don’t agree 110%, then we don’t need you polluting our world, because all who disagree with us in ANY way are LEFTISTS!!!
There, I think that’s a wrap! I’ve covered shit ALL! You can take the rest of the day off now.
(You’re welcome!)
Abortion is like this:
To REALLY understand abortion, you have to have the best ANALOGY! Abortion is like this:
You’re drunk off of your bleeding ass, driving down the road and shit, minding your own business and shit. Maybe you shouldn’t have dropped that acid, either, but the cops haven’t caught you, and, innocent till proven guilty, right? So you keep on driving… Your drunken ass is bleeding and shit, by the way, ‘cause you’ve got some wicked hemorrhoids, and shit!
Then some space aliens swoop in on your car, and abduct you, and shit. They start anally probing you. For some strange reason, the little green men have a conscience attack, they start worrying about fucking up your health, and shit, what with your giant bleeding hemorrhoids. So they cease and desist, yank their probes out of your ass, and probe your nose instead, and shit. They don’t even bother to clean the bloody shit off of the probes, and shit!
But then a mucus vampire circles around you and swoops in like a vulture!
See, a mucus vampire, well, they’ve got some sort of magical nose for this kind of thing, and somehow he catches on to what’s going down, and he wants to suck your mucus, and shit. So he shows up, to get in on the action.
But when the mucus vampire sees all your blood and shit mixed up with your mucus and shit, he gets all disgusted and shit. The blood, he can handle… Some of his best friends are blood vampires. He’s a tolerant and broad-minded vampire, and shit, you know. But REAL shit, in his mucus??! Now THAT is TOO MUCH shit, and shit!
So he says, “Dudes, getting blood and shit into your mucus and shit, that’s like getting chocolate into your peanut butter and jelly and shit! That’s like getting your stupid and your evil all mixed up into your philosophy! This is some seriously fucked up bloody-snot shit! I’m outta here!” And the mucus vampire is SOOO sickened, he barfs all over you! Then he wraps his cloak around him like Batman folding up his bat-wings around himself, turns into a bat-shit crazy bat, and shit, and flies away, all disgusted.
The little green men, being kinda autistic, take everything literally. They are also HORNY little green men, already excited by anally and nasally probing you, and, upon hearing the mucus vampire talking about “…seriously fucked up bloody-snot shit…”, get all carried away, and shoot their little-green-men jism all over your bloody-snot shit!
Now if we sit back and think about this, your shit bacteria get all fucked up, ‘cause they were expecting a decent burial in your toilet, and they don’t get one. Your nasal bacteria and viruses were expecting to LIVE, or, at least, a traditional, honorable drying-out session in your booger rag, and they don’t get that, either. Your little green men sperm cells get REALLY screwed over, ‘cause they were expecting at least SOME long odds (but a real fighting chance) at some little green woman’s egg cell. Your red blood cells don’t matter, ‘cause they have no cell nucleus, let alone a nervous system, or any kind of independent life. Your white blood cells? Well, yes, they have a nucleus, and their own genes. But they’re WHITE, dammit! You CRAZY cracker muthafuckers!!! WHITE means you’re a RACIST, and WHO CARES about the rights of racist honkeys?!?!
Ergo, we must conclude, this whole thing is an abortion all around! Since abortions are, by definition, abortions, they need to be outlawed!
Strategically the right decision. The Dems are pissed because he won’t take a stand that they can use against him.
It’s silly, because right now there is no way to get permissive abortion limitations through Congress, and if it could be done by EO, you can be sure that the Biden Administration would have done it already. And if it got through Congress, then how is it going to be justified as Constitutional? On Commerce Clause jurisdiction? I think doubtful, esp with the same 6 Republicans that threw out Roe v Wade on the Court.
Which gets back to that the Dems wanted a gotcha, and didn’t get it from Trump.
Before I read this here I saw it on my feed from Media Matters. They are accusing Trump of being evil because they say everything people think Trump said about abortion is the media lying to protect Trump.
Yeah, they're nuts.
They also know that the voters have more assurance that Trump would keep his word than any Dem that made a similar promise the other way. With (D) politicians the assessment of cynical power politics with ultimate betrayal afterwards is always the safe bet.
Noe THAT is an observation even Dems understood after losing to Gary's 4M votes in 2016!
Pro Life and Pro Choice are bullshit terms.
People claiming to be Pro Choice are just Pro Abortion because they typically don't want women to have other choices, just the right to unlimited abortion.
People claiming to be Pro Life are just Anti Abortion because once the kid is born they don't give a shit about them. Hell, they don't give a shit about the mother because they won't pay for the medical costs of bringing that child to term and delivering the baby in a hospital. They just don't want the abortion to happen.
Both sides are a pile of raging hypocrites.
George Carlin did a bit about that. Last time I posted it the usual suspects determined that I meant every word George said and attacked as they always do.
Humorless fucks.
As always I couldn’t tell if they were stupid and didn’t get that a comedian telling a joke, or understood it was a joke and were being mendacious.
Cite?
Either the attacks or you understanding what humor is. Either will satiate the ask.
George Carlin also had a lot to say about people who were terrified of germs, and were terrified of everything.
In the extended version he goes off on people who are terrified of trunk bears.
Classic.
How would you know? You have almost everyone on mute. (So I Hear)
Language.
I agree with both things you said 100%, and I wish supporters on both sides would stop hiding behind euphemism.
If you are pro-abortion, then you support legal abortion and people utilizing it (for ANY reason). You don't get to hide behind, "Well I'm personally against it but..." You support the intentional termination of in utero human beings. You do not respect a certain group of human being's right to exist. Period.
If you are anti-abortion, then you do NOT support the legal abortion and the people utilizing it (for ANY reason). You have to own even the difficult ones, and be willing to look a teenage girl raped by her father and with child in the eye and say, "Carry the baby to term."
You are one, or you are the other. There is no middle ground. People seem to want to find a "comfortable" position on an uncomfortable subject. Don't. Just own it.
(That said, being anti-abortion doesn't mean "giving a rip about them OR their mother" such that NOT wanting their intentional killing is therefore assuming responsibility for them. I, for one, don't want anyone out there murdering vagrants or illegals - it doesn't mean I therefore am obligated to subsidize their existence. That's stupid, and you're stupid for arguing it.)
When I say they won't pay the medical expenses I'm not saying they should vote for the government to use taxpayer dollars. I'm saying one of the reasons women seek an abortion is because it's cheep and all the costs of bringing a healthy baby to term and delivering it are high. Sometimes it's not evil. It's just the math.
If they want to be taken seriously as "Pro Life" they need to do more than show pictures of fetuses to women. Thry need to provide some help with the whole process. Otherwise all they do is create another woman on welfare and odds are leave her a single mother who will raise criminals and sluts this making all new problems.
These so called Pro Life types routinely shit all over these impovrished, products of broken homes and unwanted kids raised by women who did what they claim is the right thing. Not abort the child. That's why they are fucking hypocrites.
Seriously?
Then if that’s true, all those prolife aid-to-mothers centers don’t exist. Which is curious because the abortion-fanciers want to close down those supposedly nonexistent prolife clinics.
And there are the prolife proposals to “make birth free.” An abomination for a libertarian, of course.
There are plenty of well-off couples who want to adopt. That number would grow even more if the killing of “excess” embryos in IVF clinics were banned (such killing tends to be a side-effect of the IVF process, so if you can’t kill a test-tube baby then your ability to do IVF clinic stuff is reduced).
No. I want you supposed "Pro life" people to put your money where your mouths are. No government involvement at all. You pay for the consequences of your actions, just like you demand women pay for the consequences of theirs. You "save" a child then you take responsibility to insure that child gets a good home and a decent life.
"You “save” a child then you take responsibility to insure that child gets a good home and a decent life."
Would this include children saved from your attempts at infanticide?
Fuck you, I've never tried to kill a child. I also never claimed to be "Pro-Life".
What about all those *imaginary* fairy-tale children that were dreamed up in Pro-Life mobs creative minds? So of course their dreamed-up effort gives them claim to “Don’t kill my unicorn!” ???? 🙂
I am all for the brutal murder of Unicorns and making their horns into sex toys.
Their hooves make amazing glue. Better than staples for holding wounds closed.
Oh, I looked those up. Seems they have a checkered history of not actually providing medical services and having people role playing as medical professionals. They make a lot of promises and don't always deliver. Like a lot of religious charities they are helpful to fellow believers but not believing means no help.
So yes, they exist. But they lie a lot.
I’m hardly going to trust a supporter of infanticide that he looked at reputable and reliable sources.
Fuck you again.
So...they're Planned Parenthood except without massive tax subsidies?
That is your argument?
I suppose that works. They're just as willing to do anything to reach their goals as Planned Parenthood.
Which, I should mention, I am not a supporter of tax money funding abortions. If people want women to have abortions they should have to fundraise as much as those who want to prevent abortions.
I’m saying one of the reasons women seek an abortion is because it’s cheep and all the costs of bringing a healthy baby to term and delivering it are high. Sometimes it’s not evil. It’s just the math.
Still evil.
But see, you just fell prey to the very game you claim to decry. You tried to make your side palatable. "The evil isn't evil," you say.
How did you describe yourself? "A pile of raging hypocrites."
Thry need to provide some help with the whole process.
Why? If a gunman has you dead to rights, and I dive into the path and save your life - am I now somehow for some reason responsible for you for the rest of your existence that would have been cut short without me?
products of broken homes and unwanted kids raised by women who did what they claim is the right thing. Not abort the child.
Which is better?
A) Being alive and a product of a broken home.
B) Being alive and unwanted by your biological parents.
C) Being dead.
Please choose one, and explain your answer.
C. Because the other two options lead to a shit ton of emotional baggage that it's very hard to get past. I want as many children as possible to be wanted and loved. If someone doesn't want a child then they shouldn't be forced to have one.
I don't care if the act of abortion is "evil". Raising a child without love is a worse "evil". That's where the fucked up kids who are preyed on by the Alphabet Mafia come from. That's where the kids who go to college and come out as leftist idiots because a marxist teacher showed them affection and attention come from.
What would you prefer? More leftist idiots seeking attention by demanding you use their bullshit pronouns or more kids who follow in their loving parents footsteps?
Death is better than emotional baggage? And someone other than you should get to make that choice FOR you?
Justin Trudeau, is that you?
Realize that a woman is an individual, even if accidentally impregnated. As an individual she controls all her sexual functions. Forcing her to engage in initial sex is rape and forcing her to labor through the final part of sexual reproduction is slavery. Rape and slavery were abolished by 13A 14A and, briefly, 15A. But by all means, let cowardly bullies try to enslave them under 19A. Make my day!
^THIS^ Well Said.
What's that thing swimming around inside her uterus?
I don't know but if it's a child someone should call child protective services and get that child out 'her' pool before it suffocates to death.
It can breathe just fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b338ZWuYsJ0
And you didn't answer the question. What is it?
A 'piece' of a *real* Individual Human being until the day it isn't.
What's the difference between an apple tree and an apple?
If you have to ask questions that are that much of a fetch from *reality* there’s no point in continuing the conversation because the purpose is to defy *reality*.
No, really - I don't know the difference between an apple and an apple tree. Can you please explain it to me? Is the apple a piece of the tree? Is it something different and distinct? If I eat an apple, am I really eating the tree? How about if the apple is still literally attached to the tree when I eat it? When I go to the grocery store and see apples, should the sign say, "apple trees?"
I really want you to help me out with these kinds of elementary distinctions, because you're obviously an expert on them.
Anti Abortion because once the kid is born they don’t give a shit about them.
This lie is my favorite one that ignorant people repeat ad nauseum.
Pro life centers provide help, classes and material, through the age of 2. But this pervasive lie blindly repeated by people who look no deeper than media narratives and headlines treat it as true. Good work.
Age 2. Wow. That's awfully generous. There's only another 16 years that the mom has to deal with. Where are you when the hormones hit and the kid turns into a monster?
There’s always demand to adopt unwanted kids.
Right up until they find out how much it costs.
Some people pay incredible costs to adopt a child from another country, since in comparison domestic adoptions are made even more difficult. And it's not prolifers making the adoption process difficult.
Yea, it's called virtue signaling by wealthy liberal white women. Angina Jolie is not the best example.
I know actual people who did this, and I don't go in the same social circles as Angelina Jolie.
Another bald and blind assertion.
This is so very amusing.
Why justify bald assertions with facts when you can just blurt out words.
Why dont you anti abortion types organize adoptions? You claim to care, why leave it up to chance?
State regulations prevent large scale adoptions from happening, due in no small part by people who despise the idea of such organizations.
Oh, I see. More excuses.
Hey man, you asked why it doesn't happen, not why it can't.
But you can help overturn that, if you are willing to apply your stated principles here.
I'll understand if your resentment of religious people prevents that.
Yes, the desire to not be imprisoned is a bit of a problem, yes.
Tell me, which do you think is going to be an atainable legislative goal? Making it easier to adopt unwanted children or getting a ban on abortion passed?
Focus your efforts on what is possible. Not what is near impossible.
Cathollic Charaities had for a very long time been providing adoption services, but they have been increasingly bee run out by Leftists for not providing adoptions to homosexuals, due to the fact tat the Church thinks a child needs a mother and a father.
I can only assume you are being maliciously ignorant here.
No, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that conservatives blame liberals for bad weather.
How much of that opposition is from actual leftists and how much is it from other faiths that think Catholics are Mary Worshiping Cultists?
Religious organizations have as bad a reputation as police officers. Maybe instead of playing into the stereotypes of the rabid woman hating misogynist you need to drop the attemt to legislate abortion away and work the charitable angle to convince women to carry to term and put the child up for adoption?
^BINGO^... As-if there wasn't enough Gov-Guns poking those 'icky' people already going on.
If the Justice anyone seeks isn't solid enough to shoot and kill someone over then it isn't solid enough to use Gov-Guns to enforce.
Blatantly obvious is; Anytime the Gov-Guns had to shoot a pregnant women for defiance of these Anti-Abortion laws and refusing lock-up those Guns would just end up killing both the Woman and any *imaginary* unicorn the Pro-Life mobs pretends to be protecting. A massive problem with pre-mature criminal accusation of which religious wanna-be 'god' nuts fault to far too much in complete contradiction to their own religion.
I really think the religious right is politically suicidal. They pick the abortion hill to die on when a large percentage want no limits on abortion and way too many people just don't give a shit about the issue.
Why not surrender the impossible quest and turn to sounding a lot more compassionate about those who have unwanted pregnancies. Changing the laws on adoption to make it easier to place those unwanted children in loving homes. Creating charities that do more than just make promises they can't keep. Providing the actual medical care for pregnant women that they need, providing adoption services, providing counciling and help with those who decide to keep the baby.
If they want to save babies, then save babies, for real. Don't just get government to pass a law.
Ahh. If we don't allow abortion we have to support lifetime welfare.
Lol. God damn man. To think you pretend to be libertarian occasionally.
Ironically the parents do get assistance post birth as well. Food banks. Religious charities.
But please. Defend your lie developed through ignorance. Youre doing well.
Never said government charity. It should be your own money spent on making that life you saved a worthwhile one instead of a life of poverty and no opportunities so you have people to make fun of.
So no saving the lives of homeless people?
If you see someone in public having a heart attack, how do you intend to verify income and assets before dialing 911?
Shall the government start start killing people for not calling 911?
The only thing worse than someone who wouldn't call 911 is someone who would use a Gun to enslave others to call 911. This goes far beyond simply calling 911. Should the homeless start shooting and taking food, shelter and cars from their victims too? Because guess what? That is exactly the foundational end-game of this 'pitty the poor' with Gov-Gun usage entitlement.
Um... why save homeless people? They don't have the money to pay for medical care, we taxpayers wind up picking up the tab for their shitty life choices.
I am not "Pro-Life". In fact I am pro death. We have too many busy breeders out there already. We have too many people on welfare popping out kids and create multi generational welfare families. We have career criminals who prey on law abiding citizens. Arming the citizens and not prosecuting self defense would clean those fuckers out.
Some guy on the street having a medical crisis? No, I don't call 911. Odds are a cop would show up and shoot the guy. Help him? Then worry about a lawsuit for doing something wrong. No thank you.
Too many busy breeders living unhealthy lifestyles as is. Fewer would be better.
I ain’t she a gold digger but she ain’t messin with no broke pro-lifer.
18 years, 18 years, how dare you not support that woman for 18 years.
"People claiming to be Pro Life are just Anti Abortion because once the kid is born they don’t give a shit about them."
This is a rationalization, that is dishonest as hell as it is made out of ignorance, and often quite willful ignorance. There are many charitable organizations set up to support crisis pregnancies and neo natal care. the Democrats have gone out of their way to shut down such efforts.
I know. I talked to a nice lady at a Libertarian Convention a couple years back. She told me about the charities and efforts. She also admitted they can only help a fraction of the women who need them. Seems a lot of Conservatives talk a good game but don't pony up the cash for their supposed goals.
Pro-lifers run crisis pregnancy centers to assist mothers with handling pregnancies. Adoption agencies are overwhelmingly run by pro-lifers. Pro-lifers run the vast majority of charities that would assist poor mothers and their offspring.
I'm not sure what more you expect a group to do.
Not drag the Gov-Guns into the equation?
You forget. Conservatives become Liberals when I comes to recreational drugs and abortion. Thry want more bigger government. Lots of new laws and they even debate the topics like liberals by mostly name calling.
No I haven't forgotten. I call them RINO'S (Republicans in Name Only) because you're correct. Their arguments are literally based in the same non-sense as "like liberals". Also one of the Reasons I'm anxious to see the MAGA-Right and Libertarian-Republicans steer the party away from their previous RINO mistakes and back to really honoring the US Constitution like their platform proports.
How about instead of spending your money on politicians and political action groups trying to ban abortion send that money to those charities so they can actually help more women and children instead of have to turn them away because they don't have enough resources. Be actually Pro-Life instead of just Anti-Abortion.
That is ALREADY being done.
Not sure what more one can expect.
People claiming to be Pro Choice are just Pro Abortion because they typically don’t want women to have other choices, just the right to unlimited abortion.
I am pro-choice. Why wouldn't I want a woman with an unwanted pregnancy to have other choices? Abortion is an option she should have, but if she chooses something else, great. Choice is the point for me. Just like a woman should not be forced to become pregnant, she should not be forced to remain pregnant when medically safe means of ending the pregnancy exist.
I would also say that I am greatly concerned about the chilling effect these poorly thought out abortion bans are having on medical care for women that had wanted pregnancies that then become non-viable and pose additional dangers to them. (Additional dangers is important to mention, since pregnancy always carries significant risk to a woman. Which is the main reason I am pro-choice in the first place.)
Yes. Individual Liberty/Choice doesn't get much more concrete than Choices about one's own self/body. Exactly correct.
I have a question for you. You repeatedly mention the right to "fetal ejection." Let's say there is a woman who is 8+ months pregnant, and, for whatever reason, no longer wants the baby that would be born shortly. She has a right to fetal ejection, right? Why does the fetus need to be killed during that ejection? Why not remove the fetus without killing it and have the premature baby adopted? Either way the fetus is removed from the woman, and she has no responsibilities toward it after fetal ejection.
I personally have waffled on this topic. It's not a key issue for me. I don't believe in a soul, so I don't have a religious objection to abortion. I just don't know where to draw the line on when it should be permitted/banned. The above argument convinced me that if the fetus would be viable outside the woman, I see no reason to kill the fetus before removing it. So I'd be in favor of a ban on killing the fetus when it's viable, even if it's being removed from the woman.
Not sure of your question but Yes indeed. That is the exact point I'm trying to infer. The elephant in the room everyone seem content on ignoring.
I have a question for you. You repeatedly mention the right to “fetal ejection.” Let’s say there is a woman who is 8+ months pregnant, and, for whatever reason, no longer wants the baby that would be born shortly. She has a right to fetal ejection, right? Why does the fetus need to be killed during that ejection?
You are making an argument based on a hypothetical that is unimaginably unlikely to occur.* A woman deciding, at 8 months of gestation, that she absolutely must have the fetus out of her body, NOW! is, for some reason, going to decide that she also wants the fetus killed before it is out of her body? (It wouldn't be her decision anymore once it is out. That actually is infanticide no matter what else someone thinks about abortion.) I'm no obstetrician, but I would think that terminating a pregnancy at 8 months would be the most safely performed, for the woman, by inducing labor and delivering it normally. If that is the case, then the whole premise of your hypothetical is wrong.
*It is even less likely to occur when adequate medical care for pregnant women of all wealth, distance from major medical centers, and other walks of life is provided. A woman that might not want to carry a pregnancy to term is far more likely than not to make that decision well before 8 months if at all possible. Seriously, would you put up with the kind of discomfort, nausea, and other burdens of pregnancy for a few months while you decide whether you want a surgery that would alleviate those things? Not to mention risk, as things like preeclampsia typically occur after 20 weeks.
Late term abortion is a red herring in the abortion debate. Abortion opponents seem to use it to maximum effect by trying as hard as they can to equate abortion at any point with infanticide.
If it's such a non-issue and doesn't happen, I'm sure you'd support a ban on a traditional abortion when the fetus is viable, right? I hear this all the time from hardcore abortion rights activists: "It doesn't happen, it's a non-issue, so why are you bringing it up?" If that's true, then a ban on the abortion killing the fetus would be fine, right?
It was fine by Roe v Wade. No part of post-viable changed one bit.
How come I don't have the choice to kill humans who I find inconvenient? That's not very fair.
because you're taking something they inherently have instead of sustaining something they don't.
What does one human inherently have that other human does not?
Life. If the fetus has an inherent right to life it doesn't need the Woman so separate them. It's so obviously simple.
You don't think fetuses have life? What's that weird thing their brains and hearts and organs are doing?
Also, if your inherent right to life depends on total autonomy, does a person who ceases breathing (perhaps because of an obstruction in their airway) cease to have that right? I mean, we kinda jump up and try to help that guy live for some reason, right?
Oooh oooh, suppose you're having heart surgery and you're put on bypass. Do you stop having that inherent right to life while the machine is doing what your independent body can't do on its own?
Please, explain this all to me. This is fascinating.
A ‘Gun’ isn’t a tool to save life with. [WE] don’t all arm ourselves trying to help anyone. Government is nothing but a monopoly of ‘gun’ force.
Yes; If you life is being sustained by a machine you no longer have a right to life. Your life is dependent on the will of that machine and those who created it. Just as its completely retarded to press murder charges on every medical supply outfit (even in blatant refusal to maintain the machine) it is even more-so retarded to believe a Woman should be charged with murder for refusing to reproduce.
The bottom line is that it is WRONG to take what others own/earn with ‘Guns’ no matter how important or necessary **YOU FEEL** it is. Ensuring Justice isn't emotionally based.
Pro Liberty is a better term since Pro Choice has been hijacked. Also I agree totally.
But only pro-liberty for those you deem worthy, right? All the undesirables can sit and spin, right?
LMAO... This is the funniest argument ever because it's 100% upside-down.
No. Definitely Liberty for *all* including the Free the Fetuses!!!
Why are you trying so hard as a 3rd party to enslave both the woman and the fetus. Set them both FREE!
So, then you don't want the tiny humans to be killed in utero?
I want people to back the F'Off the Gov-Gun dictation over every BS imagination they can dream up in their heads in some attempt to play 'Gods' over everyone else.
But if they're going to insist on their excuses to be the playground bully then make them prove that excuse. Free the fetus and prove it actually has an inherent life to protect.
Right, but you're not answering the question.
The tiny humans in utero - do you want them killed or not?
I don't think you can 'kill' what doesn't have a Life to begin with. You're asking/probing me to join *your* imaginary fairy-tale. Thanks but no, thanks.
To put Pro-Life's arguments into equivalent context one would be arguing that every homeless person who died of natural causes constituted a 'murder' charge against everyone who refused to House, Feed and Care for the homeless.
It is literally amazing how the Right duplicates the Left on this subject.
I don’t think you can ‘kill’ what doesn’t have a Life to begin with.
So, tiny humans aren't life. Why not?
To put Pro-Life’s arguments into equivalent context one would be arguing that every homeless person who died of natural causes constituted a ‘murder’ charge against everyone who refused to House, Feed and Care for the homeless.
No.... no, that's not accurate or equivalent at all. Maybe if you were a direct and indisputable cause of someone's homelessness - but even then, there's a lot of intervening factors that would have to be taken into consideration.
With abortion, the person doing the killing is directly responsible for the presence of the other human entirely. BUT FOR mom, that tiny human wouldn't be, or be where the tiny human is.
That's not really the case with homeless people.
"People claiming to be Pro Choice are just Pro Abortion because they typically don’t want women to have other choices, just the right to unlimited abortion."
That level of false equivalence is insane. Pro-choice means that people get to make the choice for themselves. You want a pre-viability abortion? Have at it. You don't believe in abortion? Don't have one.
The anti-abortion crowd can't seem to wrap their brains around most people's simple belief that making a decision on abortion for yourself is your right, but making a decision on abortion for someone else isn't. The idea that their belief isn't important, moral, or true enough to be imposed on others is completely alien to anti-abortionists.
"Both sides are a pile of raging hypocrites."
I would argue that most people are in the middle and have nuanced beliefs. I don't think it's fair or accurate to call it hypocritical.
Like all things Trump, his position on the subject is, "Whatever you want to hear."
Government is supposed to represent the will of the people, not the other way round.
Problem is that the people don't know what they want.
At best, they want to feel like they're "winning." They don't seem to appreciate the fact that what they're trying to "win" is a race to the bottom.
Of course, YOU don't count amongst those benighted masses, right? It's just the people, but you're not one of the people, only those other people are the people.
I know more than to try and win a race to the bottom, for whatever that's worth.
That’s fucking stupid.
Language.
I’ll use whatever goddamn words I want you goddamn fucking homophobe.
You and your ilk are the ones racing to the bottom.
Stupid goddamn fucking hick
Interesting how one word that triggers such self-realization can results in such a defensive over-the-top response.
Have you reflected at all on that, I wonder. Or will you persist in retreating into yourself where it's safe?
I'll watch my language when you stop your homophibic posting. until then you can go fuck yourself you uneducated, inbred piece of goddamn fucking shit
I've not posted a single thing that's "homophobic." Not one.
Who are you? Captain America?
Sure, why not. I like that.
Not when it comes to destroying Individual Liberty. Precisely why the founders wrote a Supreme Law that Limits the will of the [WE] mob.
I agree here. Trump has a talent for saying things that allow people to hear what they want to hear.
He said leave it to the states.
What is the dark hidden "real meaning" of what he said?
Would he hold that position if elected President and Republicans passed an abortion ban. Or would he sign the bill and make it law?
So, he's wrong because you made up a hypothetical and assume it to be true?
Isn't that exactly the leftards entire political lively-hoods?
+100000000.. Well pointed out.
Well, let me wind up my time machine and go to the future when all those things have happened...
Wait. I don't have a fucking time machine you douche bag. No one really knows what is in the heart of a man. Except of course The Shadow....
Excellent reference! Terrible point. We can use a person's past actions to predict their future actions. Since the time when Trump promised to pay contractors for their work, then refused, he has put together a decades-long track record of being untrustorthy. He is a shameless betrayer of anyone who trusts and believes his word.
If you believe what he says, you deserve the knife in your back. Decades of evidence demonstrates he doesn't see promises as things he's supposed to keep.
Is he for or against legal access to abortion? Is he for or against women having abortions?
Extreme conservative vew (held by almost no one) :
All abortion should be illegal, including rape incest and life of the mother at stake
Mainstream conservative view:
Abortion should be legal in the case of rape and incest, if the mothers life is at stake, or in the first 6 to 15 weeks.
Extremist progressive view:
All abortion should be legal and celebrated in cling up to and after birth. And tax payer subsidized
Mainstream progressive view:
All abortion should be legal and celebrated in cling up to and after birth. And tax payer subsidized
Extreme conservative vew (held by almost no one)
Not to impugn you, but this is an adoption and perpetuation of the absolutely retarded pro-abortion sophistry. Murder is illegal. Murder should be illegal. Are there cases where murder is more like manslaughter? Absolutely. Do we solve every murder case and arrest one person for every murder? Fuck no. Only an abject retard or utterly dishonest shill would pretend otherwise. Should people in Maine or anywhere and everywhere besides Texas be overriding the murder decisions in Texas extra-judicially? Again, fuck no.
But, again, for one side, this was never about thinking ahead, speaking the truth, acting rationally, and considering the costs/benefits of ones actions, but critically about doing whatever you want and avoiding any and all responsibility for it always. If that means you have to falsely portray your opponent's exceedingly moderate and mundane position as cravenly insane until you find yourself unable to honestly answer the question "What is a woman?", so be it.
Exactly why the Republican written Roe v Wade ruling was entirely spot-on (only short an Individual Right to Fetal Ejection). It kept government from pumping oxygen into dead grandpa endlessly and put that into direct families hands or patient wills while handing further 'murder' accusations over to the States if (where murder accusations should be prosecuted) there might be an inherent right violation.
BUT NO.................. A Power-mad [WE] mob had to come along and kick that out the door so State Governments had power to enslave dying grandpa, direct family, patient will and could just Gov-Gun force life-support by any means necessary (adding one's own organ donation). It was a clear violation of Individual Liberty and the US Constitution and nothing enhances that more-so than Alito's pathetic excuse given in the ruling itself which didn't even refer to the US Constitution at all.
Abortion is the worst issue ever and it will never be resolved.
IT could be resolved easily if we accept that it is a medical procedure, and the decisions should be between a patient and their doctor. Simple and libertarian.
....so, as long as we agree with you, it will be resolved.
Impressive logic.
I am simply offering a solution. The government should treat abortion as a medical procedure and regulate in the same way as other medical procedures.
But that's what Canada did right after the U.S. LP plank became Roe v Wade! I can hear MAGAts shrieking: THET'S UNUMURRICAN!!
Pro-abortion folks opposed requiring providers to have hospital admission privileges to take care of the women who are occasionally harmed by their actions/
Just to remind you.
After the Roe decision abortions were performed in hospitals. The hospital gave up the procedures because the institutions were pressured. This is the same pressure that was applied to deny physician admitting privileges. Once antiabortion forces had denied admitting privileges they move on to want to require admitting privileges they had removed through pressure.
The hospital gave up the procedures because the institutions were pressured.
Pressured the way they’ve been pressured to set up emergency centers and accept public funds. Pressured the way they’ve been pressured to forego MAID (in this country) because that would mean stocking lethal injection drugs. Pressured the way they were pressured not to treat or fire anyone who was unvaccinated. Yes, they were, once again, pressured by accepting public funds and the implication that they would have to force their own employees to participate. Even then, when clinics opened up that elide the whole public funds and use-of-force "conundrum", the government and retards like you divest part of the federal budget to funding “private” clinics and “private” hospitals that still do, in fact, perform abortions.
Again, a lie in support of a call for murder, constitutes a threat in my book. Feeding you into a woodchipper would be simpler than trying to prevent abortion. At least the anti-abortion crowd has the principles, honesty, and decorum to rather openly say they won’t convict you in your State for what would be a crime in their State.
No, that doesn't remind me of anything that is true. Hospital admitting privileges - what does that actually do? Do you know? Would a woman experiencing complications from an abortion (fairly rare, I believe) be denied access to care at a hospital because the abortion provider didn't have admitting privileges? How about people experiencing complications from a colonoscopy? Does the gastroenterologist need to have admitting privileges as well? Complications from having wisdom teeth pulled? Does the dentist need admitting privileges?
The one thing I've never seen Republicans pushing for these kinds of laws present are statistics or examples of women that were harmed because the restrictions they were pushing didn't exist.
Libertarians are supposed to be against unnecessary government regulation. I guess that might be one reason there are so few libertarians. Too many of those that espouse that view are quick to chuck it when they want to use government against something they don't like.
Deciding your solution constitutes a threat and feeding you into a woodchipper would be a simple solution too.
Lots of things get much simpler when the ability to fudge the definition of murder is on the table.
“so, as long as we agree with you, it will be resolved”
No. YOU can make up your own mind you just can’t use Gov-Guns and FORCE it on everyone else.
Once the Republicans and their KKK are gone, slavery goes with them. God's Own Prohibitionists have played a long game since losing their pants in 1933. 21A pretends to repeal National dry laws, but offers to send federal troops in to assist dry states in suicide-by-prayer-and-abstinence. Suddenly the Dem demands to preserve Slave States in 1858 are revived to enslave women of both colors in 2024. Teddy Roosevelt's Nietzschean collectivist horror of race suicide is pitted against individual women's rights to not be enslaved.
^Democrat Self-Projection at one of its fullest extent.
Can you maybe dial down the paranoid ranting a bit and use fewer political buzz words?
I typically agree with you, but I am frequently embarrassed by that fact when you take crazy pills and start posting like a coke addled Alex Jones.
Um, the KKK is and always has been Democrats.
Bill Kristol
@BillKristol
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Trump's waffling on abortion could help him politically in the short term. But it could hurt him if people understand this is classic authoritarianism. (See Eco on Ur-Fascism.) If Trump were sincerely pro-life, that'd be one thing. It's the authoritarianism that is so dangerous.
Do sarc and Kristol own the same dictionary?
Apparently Kristol has managed to become dumber than I had previously assumed.
Yes.
So, this is the guy that bragged not long ago about being the one to make sure that Roe was overturned? (Which he can definitely make a case for, what with his 3 Justices that gave all the usual boilerplate about respecting precedent until they were on the Court with lifetime appointments.)
Trying to appear even the slightest bit moderate on abortion now is insulting the intelligence of every voter. Whatever he personally believes about abortion, he will always make sure that pro-life evangelicals know that they can thank him. And that he would appoint even more ideologues to the bench if they help him get elected again.
Ya know what really insults the intelligence of every voter?
Calling a massive spending bill the “Inflation Reduction Act”.
I don’t give a fuck what trump says about abortion.
I'll take non sequiturs for $1000, Alex.
What you seem to mean is that you don't care how disingenuous or dishonest Trump is on things you don't care much about, as long as he isn't Joe Biden. I think our politics is so ridiculously fucked up now for two related reasons:
1) People that have high negative partisanship (that is, they hate the other side more than they support the ones they end up voting for) become willing to overlook all kinds of dishonesty and corruption and power-grabbing from the side they vote for and justify it because they view the other side as being worse.
2) They choose to consume information about politics from media outlets that reinforce that negative partisanship and downplay the flaws of their side. (I'm not a libertarian and am a former registered Republican, yet here I am. That is the least I could be doing to try and expose myself to alternate viewpoints and information liberal sources won't disseminate.)
What does this lead to? It leads to politicians with little or no integrity getting elected from all parts of the political spectrum. Politicians that will put their career (and fundraising) and media attention ahead of the interests of the voters that put them in office. The ones that are most adept at manipulating the passions of their base become the most secure and successful, leading to dysfunctional government.
Funny, the Federalist said the opposite. They think he is too liberal on abortion. Fucking hilarious.
The Federalist are not pro-Trumpers.
Sure, why wouldn't they? Either they believe that, or they can gain by saying it even if they really think that Trump has and will continue do well by the pro-life movement. If the more strident pro-life factions criticise Trump for not being pro-life enough, that gives him a veneer of moderation. If that helps him get elected, then the pro-life groups get what they want: a Republican President that will appoint judges they like and sign anti-abortion legislation that hits his desk (whatever he says in public, I can't imagine him taking a stand and vetoing anti-abortion bills if a Republican Congress passed any).
His position is totally consistent with his taking credit for Roe's overturning.
I dont see your problem with it.
His position is a lot like that of the Justices he appointed. During their confirmation they stated that Roe was settled law, but not settled enough that they did not overturn it when the chance came.
To be consistent with the overturning of Roe, Trump should say that he will leave decision on abortion to the states. And say that he will not sign a bill that either restricts or allows abortion at a Federal level.
Ah! The voice of Christian National Socialist Alabama Von Mises infiltrators. Here's hoping Mises and MAGA drown together holding the anvil of bullying women to prevent Germanic race suicide!
And say that he will not sign a bill that either restricts or allows abortion at a Federal level.
Is that what he said? Or that he thinks it should be left the states, leaving open the question of whether he would sign federal restrictions?
Sorry, I misread what you wrote. I would agree, that he would need to say that he would veto any bills with abortion restrictions if he really believes that it should be left to the states.
Heck, how about get rid of the federal restrictions on abortion that do exist. No federal funding for abortion means that women can't get medical care that is legal in some states when they rely on Medicaid. I think that there has been some question about women in the military being affected by that restriction as well, in terms of being able to use a travel allowance to go to a different state to obtain an abortion, if they are based in a state that bans it. Then there have been abortion politics inserted into federal government aid programs in developing countries.
Get the federal government out of abortion entirely by treating it like any other medical procedure in states where it is legal, and treating like an illegal procedure in states where it is illegal. That's what abortion foes want, right?
damikesc 7 hours ago
"So, he’s wrong because you made up a hypothetical and assume it to be true?"
Eelong Musk and Long Dong sure see it. Since women were again declared slaves, as in Cruikshank v. 15A--only with 19A still standing--Tesla stock slope changed to negative. See it drop on NASDAQ since Eelong bought Twit to salve Twump. That began in April 2022, and Tesla stock dropped by a third this year. Anarco-fascista Blue Meanie Milei of Argentina is now recognized as a girl-bullying bigot by women voters there according to today's Clarin. Boycotting GOP bullies and crony firetrap cars is women's work now.
Stay off the crazy pills please.
“So, this is the guy that bragged not long ago about being the one to make sure that Roe was overturned?”
And what did the overturn DO?
It sent the issue back to the states to decide how each wishes to handle it.
Seems consistent.
exactly!
I have never seen the religious right be consistent with their "states' rights" arguments. It was the religious right that drove DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act banning federal recognition of same sex marriage and allowing states that did not allow legal same-sex marriage to not recognize marriages from states that did.) Consistent states' rights position - the federal government would recognize marriages that were legal in the state where they were performed and not impose a seperate definition of marriage, since defining marriage isn't an enumerated power of Congress anyway.
Partial birth abortion ban - if abortion is a state issue, then certainly specific procedures for performing abortions would be as well.
Social conservatives are selective in their belief in federalism and always have been.
They are disturbingly consistent if you take as a given that on any subject that can be considered "a sin" they will become far left liberals demanding all the government force be used to stop the sin. They even debate like liberal, resorting to insults, name calling and innuendo.
The 1972 LP plank got the American Supreme court to side with women as individuals in Roe. That shot Comstockism and Texas girl-bullying. The Grabber Of Pussy packed Christian National Socialists on the court to bully girls, who returned the favor by bouncing his fat ass out of office. Today the Traitor demands Art. 4, Sec 2 Clause 3: No person held to Service or Labor in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labor, But shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labor may be due. It's the return of slavery for females black and white! Expect slave catchers to hunt pregnant ladies escaping Slave State Labor.
Overturning Roe is turning out to be a bad move. State legislatures in red states (or heavily gerrymandered states that have GOP majorities in the legislature) seem intent on massively restricting the procedure (heartbeat bans, 6week bans, etc...) and that has turned out to be incredibly unpopular.
But the GOP got in bed with the church and these chickens are now coming home to roost. You cannot expect the religious folks to appreciate nuance in this debate. Abortion is either murder or if a baby has fetal problems and likely won't make it full term and it affects the life/health of the mother, its god's plan. And you don't interfere with God's plans.
So the people in those states rally up a ballot initiative and conveniently set them on an election cycle that also coincides with other races and it drives turnout. Turnout, as it turns out, is bad for the GOP. Who would've guessed?
^THIS^ Well Said. That day the Power-mad went to far and the assumption became that government was a 'God'. The 'unborn' is NOT Caesars territory.
to appreciate nuance in this debate
Oh the nuance. Yes, we must rely on the nuance. See, we can't justify it on its merits; on its face - so instead we have to dive into the nuance to come up with clever and inventive ways to rationalize killing tiny in utero humans for sake of convenience.
Tell me the nuances windy. I always get a kick out of this.
(ps. I didn't mention God, so no acting like I did.)
Or maybe it's just impossible to 'kill' something that had no inherent life to begin with. The premise is equivalently as dumb as a theft charge over 'unearned' (?unborn?) money.
"Well. I expected ?free? money someday so I guess theft charges are in order on that expectation."
Why do you think humans don't have an inherent life?
Because my clipped off finger-nails don't crawl out of the garbage can on their own? Anymore stupid questions?
Are your fingernails humans?
Human fingernails. Wanna go for another round of this continuous BS or are you done yet?
So, they're not humans then.
Nuance would be allowing elective abortion before viability but not after. Nuance would be elective abortion before 6wks but not after. Nuance would be no elective abortions UNLESS the fetus is product of rape or incest.
No nuance would be: All potential life is sacred and abortion is murder. No nuance would be: No exceptions for rape or incest. Or health of the mother.
The pro-life religious crowd states ALL life is sacred as a gift from God. Even potential life. Even a fertilized egg.
If you believe ALL life (including potential life) is sacred and all abortion is murder; you do not allow for nuance (and importantly none should be expected!). After all, its not the zygotes fault their conception is the result of incest or rape. You can’t punish/murder the innocent zygote for others sins.
The trickier dilemma is when a developing fetus has problems. Problems that make it likely the fetus won’t survive full term or if it does make it to childbirth, will not live on its own outside the womb. Things like undeveloped organs (lungs or brains) or perhaps some organs are in the wrong spot or deformed. These things happen and its unfortunate, but its Gods plan and the lord works in mysterious ways. But with no allowable nuance, abortion in these circumstances is still wrong. The health of the mother is not greater or more important than that of the fetus (even one with rare genetic disorders that caused its heart to form outside the ribs) because they are both god’s children and both are sacred.
Most people with sensible thoughts or even common sense would say the last category here is the easiest. A fetus with major genetic disorders that render it incapable of life should be removed to save the mother. After all, she may already have kids or could have more kids in the future. Shouldn’t our laws reflect that reality? Shouldn’t our laws protect the mother, if not for her for her own sake, then for her family?
And once we acknowledge that there are legitimate ethical or moral reasons for abortion to exist, then we have introduced nuance into the debate. The religious don’t want nuance. And once we have an exception for the rare circumstances, there will be more. The 10yr old girl who was raped but somehow got pregnant who, if they carry the pregnancy to term, may never be able to have kids in the future because of the physical damage to her body which she may experience. Now we have more than one exception and more nuance. That slippery slope of nuance is why there can be no nuance. Abortion is murder full stop. And because that position leads to such idiotic outcomes, the majority of people will reject it. As they should.
The Religious Right certainly hasn't been getting what it wanted. Which I do enjoy watching. I remember the 80s and 90s when they were getting what the wanted.
I'm a libertarian. I oppose government regulation of medical procedures, whether at a federal, state, county or local level. Bureaucrats, get your hands off our bodies!
So, you oppose any public school employee having a voice in whether a public school student should or should not receive "gender affirming" care, right? We don't want anyone from the government meddling in that - just the parents and doctors, correct?
In addition, public health care should be straight up banned, yes? No government employee should get any kind of health insurance, benefits, or access of any kind. It should all be privatized, with the government having no say in it (or influence over insurers) whatsoever, correct? Nor should there be any mandates for private employers.
Also, repeal EMTALA. Bureaucrats, butt out.
Are you in favor of those things?
In favor of what things, specifically?
Your thoughts on gay conversion therapy?
For minors: let the courts dispute whether any rights were violated or UN-justly coerced. But any non-related person as an entirely UN-concerned 3rd party doesn't have a case against little Johnny because he insisted on cutting off his own finger. Self-mutilation happens all the time from pierced ears, tattoos, etc, etc. The ability to 'own' oneself (Individuality) is far more important than what UN-related 3rd parties think (want to own them).
If it helps, great. If it doesn't, no harm no foul.
The Supreme Court’s overturning of Roe v. Wade is the gift that keeps on giving, and giving, and giving. And there is no off ramp for the Republicans.
The innate human nature to act without regard for or specifically to avoid any and all consequences is far more powerful to The State and aligned entities and institutions more broadly.
Whereas prior to any intervention people could/would recognize consequences and avoid them of their own will, after they will be reliant on other people for solutions to their problems. And their reliance can be used to bend otherwise normal or even more intelligent people to say things like "mostly peaceful protest" and "What is a woman?" out loud. It's literally retarding people.
Indeed. From the careless trying to shovel all their natural-consequences onto everyone else using Gov-Guns to the Karen's-too-much trying to shovel the natural-price-tag of self-significance onto everyone else by dreaming up consequences to impose on others using Gov-Guns.
Both attempting to selfishly gain what they don't want to earn through the use of 'Guns' against those 'icky' people.
Maybe 'Guns' don't make sh*t anymore than they make an honorable way to feel self-significant.
Maybe the only possible human asset of having a monopoly of Gun-Force is to ensure Individual Liberty and Justice for everyone.