How Florida Fixed Its Vote-Counting Problem After the 2000 Election
Ballots should be counted quickly and accurately.

About four hours after the polls closed on Election Day, the major TV networks and the Associated Press declared a winner in the crucially important and always bitterly contested state of Florida.
And that was it.
There were no takebacks. No corrections. No recounts. No need for the intervention of the U.S. Supreme Court. Other aspects of the 2020 presidential election would carry on chaotically for weeks, then months, as partisans agonized over in-person vote tallies, mail-in ballots, and state-level certifications of official results. But in Florida—yes, Florida—the election could hardly have gone more smoothly.
That's not usually notable. We expect states to handle elections and compute the results with minimal fuss and chaos. The electoral system is, in some sense, the most fundamental aspect of a democratic government—one that, when it fails, puts into jeopardy everything else that government might aspire to do and be.
That's why the 2000 presidential election in Florida is infamous. For five weeks, the inability to determine who had won the state's electoral votes—and with them, the presidency—laid bare just how contingent this whole democracy thing can be.
There was a silver lining to that calamitous moment. In the months after the news cameras turned away from Florida's election officials, then-Gov. Jeb Bush pushed for changes that would hopefully ensure there'd never be a repeat performance. With the experience of the 2000 election constantly hanging over the state, Florida's leaders have made running smooth elections a point of pride. The state has been at the forefront of policy changes that make it easier for residents to vote and easier for officials to tabulate the results.
It all came together in 2020. More than 11 million people voted in Florida that year—only California and Texas had more ballots to count. Incredibly, 93 percent of that total was publicly reported by 9:30 p.m. on November 3, just 90 minutes after polls had closed across the state. (National media outlets, perhaps burned by prior experience, didn't officially call the state for then-President Donald Trump until close to midnight. But they probably could have done so sooner.)
By comparison, Pennsylvania still had around 25 percent of its vote total left to count at 9 a.m. on the morning after Election Day. The Keystone State quickly became ground zero for legal wrangling over the results and attendant conspiracy theories.
The day after the election, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis said, "I think we finally vanquished the ghost of Bush v. Gore," as he praised state and local officials for their speedy, efficient vote counting.
Counting votes accurately is, of course, the most important part of managing an election. Counting them quickly is important too, especially in an environment like the present, where partisans in politics and the media are eager to fan the flames of conspiracy theories when results take days or weeks to finalize. By failing to quickly tally the results of the 2020 election, some important swing states created an opportunity for Trump and his allies to sow chaos. They will likely have a similar opportunity in 2024.
But if Florida can run a controversy-free election, shouldn't we expect the same everywhere?
The Mess
A few months after the 2000 election meltdown in Florida, USA Today interviewed a man who saw the disaster coming.
Roy Saltman was an analyst working for the National Institute of Standards and Technology when he published a 132-page report in 1988 highlighting some of the potential problems with the widely used punch-card voting machines that played a starring role in the Florida fiasco. Based on problems that had occurred in lower-stakes elections throughout the 1970s and 1980s, Saltman noted that some so-called chads—the tiny bits of paper that voters would punch out from the ballot cards to indicate their choice—could be incompletely punched out, leaving some voters' choices unclear or up to the discretion of election officials. The report included a clear recommendation: "that the use of pre-scored punch card ballots be ended."
There were other factors in creating the perfect storm of election chaos in 2000: the premature decision by some media outlets to call the state for Al Gore, only to have to rescind that call as more votes were tallied on election night and George W. Bush took the lead; the infamous "butterfly ballots" that may have led some voters in Palm Beach County to accidentally vote for Reform Party nominee Pat Buchanan when they intended to vote for Gore; and, of course, the repeated interventions by both the Florida Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court in regard to the length of the recount and its eventual end.
But the "hanging chads" came to define the election—and for good reason. The other controversies were simply the result of a narrow election with incredibly high stakes: If Bush had won a bunch of other states too, few people would remember the media screwing up the call on Florida. The indelible image of the 2000 election was that of bleary-eyed election officials holding up punch cards meant to be read by computers, one after the other, for weeks on end.
"The main thing I was asked to rule on is: What was the intent of the voters?" state Circuit Court Judge Jorge Labarga recalled for a 2020 piece in The Atlantic. "People don't always follow directions. Instead of just puncturing the hole for Al Gore, some people would write Al Gore. Or you could see where they tried to push the little chad through—there's, like, a bulge in it—but it held in place. That would be a 'pregnant' chad. The question for me was: Do we have to have a complete removal of the chad? Or what about a person who wrote in the name Al Gore—do we count that?"
Election rules and equipment have one purpose: to accurately aggregate the will of the people. Instead, the punch-card ballots left some voters' decisions open to interpretation—and they slowed the counting (and recounting) of votes, compounding the initial failure into a weekslong exercise in uncertainty.
That was the true root of the chaos in the Florida recount. It wasn't a matter of simple recounting. Two people could look at the same stack of ballots and add them up differently, depending on how they interpreted the hanging, pregnant, and bulging chads.
The U.S. Supreme Court finally intervened to stop the recount for good—effectively handing the election to Bush—on Tuesday, December 12, a full five weeks after Election Day. In his dissenting opinion in Bush v. Gore, Justice John Paul Stevens acknowledged some of the damage caused by Florida's electoral disaster. "Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's Presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear," he wrote. "It is the Nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law."
If that's true, it's only because other basic functions of the government failed first. Courts should never have to settle these types of questions. Elections are not just the way we decide who gets to be in power; they're also the most fundamental thing a government does. They shape public views about state capacity and legitimacy. Unfortunately, this is hardly ever a priority for state governments.
"It has always puzzled me why my report never got a wider acceptance," Saltman told USA Today in 2001. "It takes a crisis to move people, and it shouldn't have."
The Cleanup
Though it took a crisis to get the ball rolling, at least the Florida state government didn't take long to respond to the chaos of the 2000 election.
Just five months later, at the urging of Jeb Bush, the state Legislature enacted a sweeping overhaul of Florida's election rules. The Election Reform Act of 2001 banned the use of punch-card voting machines and required the secretary of state (rather than county-level elections officials) to have the final say over which kinds of voting machines could be used in the future. The law also clarified Florida's rules for automatic recounts and set more stringent time frames for the certification of vote counts—a move intended to prevent the seemingly interminable recounts in 2000. It also created new statewide rules for issuing provisional ballots and how those would be counted, with an eye toward ensuring as many Floridians as possible could vote.
"My hope is that people will see that we have resolved the problem," Jeb Bush told CNN. "Other states ought to look at this as a model, because if there is another close election in another state, I guarantee you that they will not be able to withstand the incredible scrutiny that occurred in Florida."
Academic observers largely agreed with the governor. In a 2001 report, Jon L. Mills of the University of Florida Levin College of Law called the new rules "a vast improvement" and said the law "may in many ways be a nation-wide model."
The Election Reform Act was far from perfect, though. One major problem that emerged in later years had to do with the computerized touch-screen voting systems that largely replaced the punch-card ballots. Because they did not provide voters with a printed-out receipt of their choices, those voting machines came under intense criticism for not leaving a trustworthy paper trail, which is necessary in the event of a hack or glitch.
Faced with that problem, Florida lawmakers adapted again. In 2007, an update to the 2001 law required that all electronic voting machines also provide a paper trail so voters can trust their choices were accurately recorded and to help with recounts.
That willingness to keep improving its election system—an impulse perhaps driven by a desire to avoid another embarrassing meltdown—has been a hallmark of the state Legislature for two decades. The state was also one of the first to embrace mail-in voting on a large scale, even before the COVID-19 pandemic prompted some other states to follow suit, sometimes in half-baked ways, in 2020.
Many of these changes have come in the form of state mandates and have included spending taxpayer money on new voting machines and additional training for local election officials. That's "not necessarily the first libertarian instinct," admits Walter Olson, a senior legal fellow at the Cato Institute. Even so, Olson says, making sure elections run well is a core responsibility of state governments, and what Florida has done over the past two decades is worth emulating.
"Florida seems to have done a lot of things right," says Olson. "I find a kind of neat culture balance in which they are nodding practically to a lot of liberal ideas that are, in fact, popular but with conservative cultural trimmings." For example, the boxes used to collect mail-in ballots are referred to as "secure ballot intake stations," which adds a conservative-coded aesthetic that simply calling them "drop boxes" does not.
There are good reasons that many voters prefer not to vote until Election Day. It means getting as much information as possible before making your choice. It means a late-breaking scandal is less likely to leave you wishing you could reverse your vote. But many Americans will have good reasons to prefer early voting. From the perspective of a state government trying to run an efficient and effective election, more votes being cast early means more time to do the counting.
Equally important, it means more time to be sure every vote is being counted accurately.
"Florida is famous among election nerds for having the fastest reporting of vote totals in the country, with near-instant results on election night," says Andy Craig, the director of election policy at the Rainey Center, a centrist think tank. In a report he authored earlier this year, Craig calls Florida's vote-processing procedures "the gold standard" for other states to follow.
Per state law, counties can begin processing mailed-in ballots up to 25 days before Election Day. That includes just about everything except the actual counting: checking that signatures are valid and that the votes have been legally submitted. Counting those ballots officially begins 15 days before Election Day and must be completed by the time the polls close.
Leaking the results early—a legitimate fear, as it could influence the decisions of voters yet to cast a ballot—is a felony offense. There's never been a leak.
The process buys valuable time to get things right. According to a post-election report by University of Florida political scientist Daniel A. Smith, mail-in ballots accounted for about 44 percent of the 11 million votes cast in Florida in 2020. Of those 4.85 million ballots, Smith found that about 47,000 were flagged by county election officials for various reasons: missing signatures, voting for multiple candidates, and the like.
Those ballots entered what's known as the "curing process," in which county officials reach out to those who cast each ballot in an attempt to clarify or correct whatever caused the ballot to be pulled out of the official count. Voters are then allowed to fill out an affidavit confirming their vote.
By and large, it works. In 2020, only 12,751 of those flagged ballots were unable to be "cured" and counted on Election Day. That's a rejection rate of less than 0.3 percent among the 4.8 million mail-in ballots.
You can think of those ballots as modern versions of the "hanging chads" that bedeviled Florida officials during the 2000 recount.
In both cases, there's something abnormal about the ballot as it is received for counting. If election officials don't have time to investigate that ballot until after the voting is over, as happened in 2000, they're forced to make their own best judgments about voter intent based on the condition of the ballot. Some ballots will inevitably be misread, and others will be discarded as invalid because they cannot be interpreted one way or the other.
But if election officials have the time to inspect those ballots before Election Day, they can contact the voters in question and grant them an opportunity to have their ballot corrected. That means more voters get to have their votes counted—and counted correctly.
"If every state had Florida's model," Craig explains, "the 2020 election would have been called much sooner rather than dragging on for several days like it did."
The Other States' Messes
There's no prize for being the best state at counting votes. But as the country painfully learned in 2000 and again in 2020, there are a variety of penalties for taking what seems like too long.
"This is no special American fetish where some people want fast results. It's taken for granted, more or less everywhere in the democratic world, that of course we want speedy results," says Olson. Not knowing causes practical problems—winners can't begin the relatively short process of preparing to take office, constituents might have no idea who to contact if they need to reach their representative, and so on.
Then there are the darker threats.
"Public suspicion of the system, rightly or wrongly, seems to be directly correlated with the delay in results," Olson says. "It opens the door for accusations of wrongdoing, whether well-founded or not."
Olson points to the various, often conflicting arguments that circulated in the aftermath of the 2020 election. In places where policies required vote counting to stop overnight and begin again the day after the election, that was offered as evidence of malfeasance. In places that didn't halt the tabulation, vote counts might drop at 3 a.m., also fueling suspicion.
Getting a "substantially complete count" on election night, as Florida does, seems to make a significant difference in the perceived legitimacy of elections, Olson concludes.
Meanwhile, states like Pennsylvania and Arizona invited criticism and groundless allegations of impropriety solely because they took days or weeks to finalize their tabulation. That was not an accident. In Pennsylvania, for example, local election officials are prohibited from even beginning to process mailed-in ballots until after the polls close on Election Day—in other words, 25 days after Florida begins handling mailed-in ballots.
In that environment, there is no way for a close race to be resolved in a timely manner. Worse, it limits the ability to "cure" ballots that are improperly submitted, cutting some voters out of the process entirely.
Rather than sowing doubts about the legitimacy of mail-in voting, Florida shows that there's broad, bipartisan support for elections that are run well. Maybe the best example of that isn't the super-smooth 2020 presidential election but what happened in the state two years earlier.
In 2018, Florida saw razor-thin margins in races for governor, senator, and agriculture commissioner. All three headed to recounts. All three were resolved by the new November 20 deadline created by the 2001 reforms. Two of the three were won by Republicans.
That election highlights why Florida's experience with mail-in ballots and other forms of early voting is an interesting case study. After all, Florida has become a more reliably Republican state even asit has seen a dramatic increase in the number of ballots cast by mail. It's not hard to come up with theories as to why this might be. Most notably, elderly voters, legions of whom reside in Florida, are among the biggest beneficiaries of voting systems that don't require in-person attendance at polling places. They, of course, skew conservative. (It's worth noting that Trump voted by mail in Florida in 2020.)
It wasn't until 2020—and probably due to Trump's extensive preelection effort to undermine the validity of mail-in voting—that more Democrats than Republicans voted by mail in a Florida election. The same thing happened again in 2022, and DeSantis responded by trying to limit mail-in voting in the future by limiting the number of available ballot drop boxes, among other measures.
Running efficient, accurate elections should not be a partisan issue. It would be a shame to see Florida backtrack on two decades of sensible bipartisan reforms simply because some conservative voters and one former president got grouchy about mail-in voting.
There's one final lesson from Florida's history of election reforms since 2000: We don't need the federal government to be involved.
In the immediate aftermath of the 2020 debacle, the newly inaugurated President Joe Biden and congressional Democrats pushed a proposal that would have let the federal government set the ground rules for future presidential and congressional elections. Their arguments rested on the perception that some states were doing a poor job running those elections—so poor that the very legitimacy of democracy was imperiled, or at least badly enough that some voters might be disenfranchised.
That idea, of course, ignores the fact that federal officials are not immune to making poor decisions—like the ones that led to Florida's debacle in 2000, but with far more wide-reaching consequences. Also, federalizing elections seems like an odd idea to propose in the wake of the chaos Trump and his supporters sowed in the 2020 election, which proved that state-run elections are a safeguard against power-hungry federal incumbents who are willing to do whatever it takes to stay in office.
In contrast, Florida's example shows that state policy makers have an incentive to improve election procedures to avoid national embarrassments. Hopefully, leaders in Pennsylvania, Arizona, Nevada, and elsewhere will follow Florida's example.
There's no good way to prevent the possibility of an election that comes down to a few votes. The stakes of a quick and accurate count are higher than ever. All the more reason to do things right, even if that means following Florida's—yes, Florida's—lead.
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Note the disparity in these two descriptions.
1. That's why the 2000 presidential election in Florida is infamous. For five weeks, the inability to determine who had won the state's electoral votes—and with them, the presidency—laid bare just how contingent this whole democracy thing can be.
2. the chaos Trump and his supporters sowed in the 2020 election, which proved that state-run elections are a safeguard against power-hungry federal incumbents who are willing to do whatever it takes to stay in office.
One is presented as mere happenstance while the other explicitly framed as a corrupt attempt to overturn the election. In reality these events were almost exactly the same, and the same set of facts can be framed as corrupt or exploring every legal avenue to ensure the correct result. But noting the extreme difference in how people describe each reveals their bias.
Dem partisans conclude this naturally given their own inherent and emotional labeling of heroes and fascists. But why does Boehm land in the same place? He's revealing he, along with most Reasoners, still judge the Democratic establishment by different standards even though Reason explicitly claims to stand outside the party system. Partially he pushes this conclusion by omitting the more corrupt 2000 details like Dems suing to loosen the voting standards only in Democratic strongholds and arguing a vote for a Dem Senator with no vote for President should result in a vote counted for Al Gore. He also ignores conspiracy theories about 2000 don't exist. Even though he mentions butterfly ballots he doesn't bring up the claim it was intentionally designed to confuse voters and cost Gore votes. Such characterizations are only only made against Trump and his supporters.
Readers recognize this bias, except of course those who also suffer from it.
Beat me to it and accurately said.
What is extra funny about 2029 is democrats were saying the exact same things about electoral risks and issues prior to the election.
An example.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us/politics/russian-hacking-elections.html
This was done as an attack to get federal involvement and then the Time article about fortifying the election.
Reason will never admit to election regularity if it helps the democrats. They will ignore the statistically improbable swings all in one direction. Ignore recent polls where people admit to violating election laws. They will keep with the cleanest election ever narrative even when they admit to issues in the election.
Cleanest election ever!
No widespread corruption.
Though the admission that the 2020 election was as shitshow because of how the states handled it is a big step for a writer at Liberteen Magazine.
Yeah, they were definitely setting the stage for challenges (or "attempts to overturn the election" is the new way to say that I guess) and accusations of fraud . If Trump had emerged as a clear winner, Democrats were absolutely going to cry foul and do everything they could to overturn the results. And the riots would have really been something too.
One is presented as mere happenstance while the other explicitly framed as a corrupt attempt to overturn the election. In reality these events were almost exactly the same
We see this time and time again here, and I understand why it's done, but what I don't understand is why the low effort to disguise the demagoguery.
Being so obvious just hurts Boehm's own credibility and nothing else.
Boehm had credibility?
I’m skeptical as well.
My take too.
In reality these events were almost exactly the same
Nope, but no surprise that the Confederates here agree with you.
In 200 the voting process made it difficult if not impossible to discern voter intent owing to the use of paper ballots. That was an unforeseen consequence - and happenstance. No-one passed laws for use of paper ballots with the idea that it would help a later challenge to results or to get voters to think the result was other than it was.
In 2020 in some states, notably Pennsylvania, Republicans had passed laws requiring in-person ballots to be counted ahead of mail-in ballots simply so that a swing to Biden as the latter were counted would appear to be evidence of ballot rigging - which tactic worked given that there are cretins who to this day regard late swings to Biden as evidence of rigging, notwithstanding all the failed lawsuits.
Then explain why a state like Illinois accepts ballots for up to two weeks, without a postmark, after an election.
Whoops, he was hoping you wouldn't remember that.
Ballot harvesting is now completely legal in Illinois. Anyone can walk into a nursing home and walk out with a ballot for every resident no matter how badly afflicted with dementia. We've never had honest elections here but the entire exercise is a total farce at this point.
It is amusing watching shrike complain about passed laws in 2020 while dems changed election rules in violation of the law.
Also he ignores the vast issues of in person voting that occurred. Stopped delayed counting. "Broken" water pipes. Restarts of counting after dems told counting was done for the night. Post election day receipt of ballots. Etc.
Good work shrike.
It give him something g to do while recharging between child porn viewing sessions.
It's certainly a balanced view that anyone supporting equal and fair treatment is a confederate. We should give him credit for the subtlety of not calling them Nazis.
But note how left wingers exonerate themselves. Even if we accept arguendo that he is correct it remains true that Dems tried to overthrow election results by manufacturing votes and selectively altering voting standards. In fact Dems were far closer than Trump to achieving it through their corruption of our institutions including the courts some of which allowed the Dem actions. By contrast there was never any path for Trump to "overthrow" the election, these claims are political grandstanding similar to the claim Jan 6th was an "insurrection". This is radicalizing propaganda our institutions engage in specifically to convince people to abandon reason. The troubling aspect is not that left wing commenters engage in it, that's to be expected and follows decades of mainstream efforts. The troubling aspect is that now Reasoners engage in it. It is so pervasive even people who claim to oppose it often repeat it.
In addition Dems tried the specific complaint that supposedly differentiates Trump: they argued the butterfly ballot was an intentional act to disenfranchise voters thus undermining what should not be a partisan process. In fact consider what he cites here as proof:
which tactic worked given that there are cretins who to this day regard late swings to Biden as evidence of rigging, notwithstanding all the failed lawsuits.
Do not left wingers even today refer to Bush as unelected? Despite failed lawsuits? So is this damning or not? It simply never occurs to them to evaluate themselves by the standards they apply to others. An evaluation isn't relevant because there is no judgement, only the team's success.
It wasn't the kate swings people even question with Biden. It is the ballot batches that were 95% Biden votes. Signs of either manufactured or harvested ballots. The mail in vote was 60ish 40ish. So a single batch of 95% is well out of statistical probability. All the batches that were more than 1 sigma away of expectations went to Biden. Most of these batches occurred at night and early morning. With multiple dem controlled counting operations doing so while trying to either ban GOP observers or telling them they stopped counting when they didn't.
The fact they were prepping the narrative well in advance is also questionable as early returns were showing a 60 40 split as well.
This doesn't even get into the 20% if respondents who admitted to filling out family member ballots or voting from out of state. Released just this week.
That is a misrepresentation of the poll result.
From your poll result, 20% of those who filled out absentee ballots (which itself was about 25% of those in the survey, IIRC), claimed that they assisted a family member, "in whole or in part", to fill out their ballot. So even if your survey is to be believed, it represents about 5% of all ballots. Furthermore, the poll question was poorly worded (intentionally so, IMO) by not precisely defining what it meant when it came to assisting a family member to fill out a ballot. It could have been completely innocuous assistance that had no connection whatsoever to any sort of fraud.
The purpose of that poll IMO is to dishonestly push a "stolen election via fraud" narrative in order to boost Trump.
No widespread stealing.
Yeah! Let’s leave the dishonesty to you! That’s YOUR turf.
Notice how jeff, sarc, and shrike have all retreated to these attacks at the same time. None of them offer anything to defend their bald assertions. It is hilarious to me.
I don’t call him Lying Jeffy for nothing.
Can you point to anything in my post above that is a lie?
JesseAz took a poll that said one out of twenty voters helped family members fill out ballots, and twisted it to say on in five voters fraudulently voted twice? And the usual suspects are white knighting for him?
I’m shocked!
I missed where Jesse said one in five voters voted twice?
I didn't. Also note sarcs leftist defense ignores the 17% who admitted they voted in a state they didn't live in at the election.
Sarc always has to rush to his leftist buddy Jeff's defense. But don't call him a tribalist!
Figures don’t lie, but liars figure. And you figure a lot.
Imagine posting this right after getting caught lying.
The only person lying is you sarc. Go posy the words of the polling question.
Back up one of your assertions for once.
Sarc has a ballot box in his mouth and all the Biden supporters are stuffing it.
Thats not what the polling said retard. But look at you push the leftist narratives to form an excuse.
This was the actual poll question:
4. During the 2020 election, did a friend or family member fill out your ballot, in part or in full, on your behalf?
and 19% answered yes. But that was 19% of the 30% who claimed to have voted via absentee or mail-in ballots. So that yields 5.7%, or "about 5%" as I stated.
You are the one pushing the right-wing narrative of MASSIVE FRAUD and lying with statistics to do it.
5% cheating is now within acceptable parameters.
That’s only half of the acceptable “10% for the big guy”. So yeah, totes ok.
It's also (1) a poll, not any standard of legal proof, and (2) using an imprecise poll question that did not use any legal definition of voter fraud. So EVEN IF this poll result is valid, which is dubious in the first place, the number of people who "cheated" is way less than 5%.
What is " well out of statistical probability" supposed to mean
Name some districts that reported a 95% majority.
If you knew anything about statistics you'd be able to understand a population statistic when compared to a sample statistic and understand how to calculate it. This is year 2 engineering class work.
Couldn't find one for dummies for you.
https://www.simplilearn.com/tutorials/machine-learning-tutorial/population-vs-sample
An example of the statistical irregularity in Just Pennsylvania.
But we know you believe in the cleanest election ever narrative.
https://uncoverdc.com/2020/11/12/pennsylvania-election-data-analysis-some-very-suspect-counties/
Well, let's take apart some of these claims then that your article makes.
1. There are these four suspicious counties where there were more Biden votes than Obama/Hillary votes, even in three of the four counties that are Republican-leaning that's weird when Republicans have been supporting Trump to the tune of 95+% or so.
Answer: Two of those four counties are suburban Philadelphia counties, and those are precisely the types of areas that Trump had the most problems with. So no it is not so suspicious that Trump would do poorly in suburban Philadelphia. Furthermore, this 95% support number is an average over the entire country (I guess), not on an individual county-by-county result. The aggregate result does not necessarily apply in each specific case. One of the four counties is a suburban Harrisburg county, and one of them appears to be a very rural county (Pike). Maybe there is something weird about that one county that should be checked out, I don't know. But it also contributed a very small number of votes overall.
2. There are these five counties which contributed a lot of "excess" votes to Biden, and that is suspicious.
Answer: Not suspicious at all when you consider that two of the five counties encompass Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, and the other three are suburban counties of those two cities.
3. Turnout in Montgomery County was 90+%, which is suspicious because in 2016 it was 61%.
Answer: Voting was a lot easier in 2020 than it was in 2016, and 2016 was an anomalously low turnout year because both candidates were disliked. So, not terribly suspicious either.
4. The "time series" of vote tallying revealed suspicious patterns in how Biden got votes.
Answer: That is because of the "red mirage" because Trump discouraged mail-in voting. The in-person ballots were counted first, and the mail-in voting were counted last.
5. There's a bunch of counties where Biden got more votes than there were registered Democrats, and that is suspicious.
Answer: No it's not terribly suspicious, if you consider that again those counties are suburban counties, where Trump had the most difficulty, and there were plenty of voters, including Republican voters, who were turned off by Trump's antics and his handling of the pandemic that they cast a vote for Biden not because they supported Biden's policies, but because they were casting a vote *against Trump*.
6. Benford's Law
Answer: This has already been debunked - Benford's Law does not necessarily apply to votes in these situations.
Note that I gave a detailed response to the source that Jesse cited, that Jesse has ignored. He will then later trot out that same source and use it again and say "see? see? look at all the problems in Pennsylvania in 2020!"
From your link:
Lastly, a Benford’s law analysis was conducted on votes tabulated in heavily-Democrat Allegheny county...This anomalous result lends support for a complete audit of Allegheny county votes tabulated.
Benford's law assumes a normal distribution. In this case it would mean the number of voters per precinct should follow a bell curve, however precincts are intentionally divided to be the same size, thus you would not expect the vote to follow Benford's law where a candidate is highly favored. The link below offers a more thorough explanation.
https://maranailejoakim.medium.com/claims-of-us-election-fraud-benfords-law-65951d18ed5
When they discussed that law they were referring to ballot numbering from mail in ballots, ie looking for return time on ballots showing many sequentially numbered ballots coming in in ballots. Something one would not expect based on distribution of when ballots are returned. This was discussed heavily here.
When they discussed that law they were referring to ballot numbering from mail in ballots
That's not what is referenced in your link. They mention only lead digit votes.
It should be pointed out that that analysis is the same one used by groups who monitor international elections for fraud.
Yes, it works for larger populations that include multiple counties and states with many different size precincts as the precinct size distribution approaches a normal distribution.
No Benford's Law does not require the assumption of a normal distribution. It does become more predictive over data sets that cover multiple orders of magnitude but bell curves are not a requirement for Benford's Law to work.
No, it doesn't require a normal distribution, but I said assumes a normal distribution. Thus the less the data approximates normal, the less analytical power Benford's has.
The Significant-Digit Law of statistical folklore is the empirical observation that in many naturally occurring tables of numerical data, the leading significant digits are not uniformly distributed as might be expected, but instead follow a particular loga-rithmic distribution
http://www.gatsby.ucl.ac.uk/~turner/TeaTalks/BenfordsLaw/stat-der.pdf
naturally occurring = normal distribution.
But the argument is academic, and the orders of magnitude that you pointed out, which is not satisfied in this case, is a simpler and more straight-forward explanation. Thanks!
wHaT doES sTaTIstICs eVEn MeEeAAaaNnn?
So a single batch of 95% is well out of statistical probability.
Only if one assumes that Trump & Biden voters are evenly distributed throughout the voting district. Even in a 50-50 district, there is no a priori reason why there couldn't be one voting precinct that is 90-10, and another precinct that is 10-90.
So what you are saying, is that all of these claims of fraud, are based on ignorance of statistics? That sounds very believable, actually.
LOL.
You mean the lawsuits thrown out on standing and not the merits?
The Confederates were democrats.
Shhh. Jeffy, Diet Shrike, and Sarc are busy making up their own facts as they go.
In reality these events were almost exactly the same
No they were not, and this is one of Marshal's attempt to gaslight on behalf of his team.
About the only similarity between the two cases is that the ultimate losing side of each used every legal strategy they could think of, including inventing some very novel legal arguments, to try to persuade a court to hand them a victory. In Gore's case, did his team try to make the legal argument that if a voter had voted for a Democrat for Senate but left President blank, then that voter should have a vote for Gore for President count? My recollection is that they did. This is a stupid argument and it deserved to be laughed out of court. Now, should we compare that to the many stupid arguments that Trump's team made in their legal filings in 2020? In case after case, they alleged fraud but could not prove it. Their claims were highly speculative and they deserved to be dismissed also because they were stupid. And let's not even get into the Dominion voting machine craziness. But, both teams were entitled to make whatever legal arguments they wanted to make, even completely batshit crazy ones. Okay, fine.
But in 2000, after the final court ruled on the final case, what did Gore do? He accepted the finality of the outcome. He did not continue to stoke paranoid rumors about a stolen election. He did not assemble a mob of his supporters on Jan. 6, 2001 to protest at the Capitol to "stop the steal". He let it go. That is NOT what Trump did.
Oh, but Marshal says that "Dems" continued to believe in paranoid craziness, such as the infamous butterfly ballot was *intentionally* created to trick voters into supporting Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore and therefore hand the election to Bush. Yes, there are cranks and morons all over the place. The difference is how the candidate and his team handled the loss. Gore handled it like an adult. Trump handled it like a spoiled child.
Here is the biggest difference:
After 2000, while there were always cranks and morons (including some in Congress) who continued to believe the election was stolen, Gore and the party leadership for the most part did not promote or stoke the craziness, they moved on.
After 2020, not only did Trump continue to believe in the stolen election, he deliberately chose to foment and encourage the belief, so much so that it has become a litmus test for nomination to the party.
Dem partisans conclude this naturally given their own inherent and emotional labeling of heroes and fascists.
Guess what - that tendency towards black/white, villain/hero thinking, is not limited to "Dem partisans". It is characteristic of tribalists of all stripes. That is how the tribalism gets reinforced: everyone in the tribe is a "hero" and everyone outside the tribe is a "villain". You do it too all the time.
Here is the biggest difference:
After 2000, while there were always cranks and morons (including some in Congress) who continued to believe the election was stolen, Gore and the party leadership for the most part did not promote or stoke the craziness, they moved on.
This is a lie, and revealingly on the "biggest" difference. In reality Dem controlled institutions have continued to stoke the craziness for more than two decades. Their reaction was so extreme they began "The Secretary of State Project" to elect activist election administrators who would ensure voting decisions would be made in their favor. The Dems advantage is their control of our institutions allows them to propagandize and radicalize using surrogates so others can pretend to not be involved. But by noting the establishment members fully support these surrogates we recognize there is no division between the groups.
But the key to Jeffey's analytical failure is the same as other leftists: they search for any difference and claim it is the sole meaningful issue rather than comparing the totality of actions on each side. In this case we have both Dems and Trump's team pushing to overthrow the election, but we're supposed to be outraged over Trump and ignore Dems because Gore supposedly gave up slightly earlier even though his allies kept it going? Absurd! What a minor difference to pretend 100% disparate treatment justifies, and of course that's in addition to ignoring all other differences in the cases that are more damning to Dems.
Also, let's notice how quickly Jeffey moved to exonerate Trump's initial phase of election fraud claimsonce doing so became necessary to protect Gore. Jeffey hasn't asserted that before so it's clearly motivated by his need reach the conclusion that protects Dems.
Guess what – that tendency towards black/white, villain/hero thinking, is not limited to “Dem partisans”
I didn't say it was, it's just a way to show there's no reason to expect any better from left wingers like yourself. This was to distinguish from Reason writers from whom we can presumably expect more.
That is how the tribalism gets reinforced: everyone in the tribe is a “hero” and everyone outside the tribe is a “villain”. You do it too all the time.
Let's summarize this:
I point out that Dems and Trump have done the same thing, Jeffey tries to exonerate Team Blue by absurdly pretending the only item that matters is how long they persisted, and of course lies about that as well.
Then he concludes the tribalist is the person who claims both people are wrong instead of the person absurdly thrashing to protect his team.
From 2018.
https://theintercept.com/2018/11/10/democrats-should-remember-al-gore-won-florida-in-2000-but-lost-the-presidency-with-a-preemptive-surrender/
As usual jeff is constantly full of shit lol.
I thought he was full of Tim Hortons doughnuts and cool ranch Doritos.
It turns to shit eventually which is when Jeff calls sqrsly.
And with how much jeff eats he has a lot of shit in his system at all times.
Don’t forget his consumption of 55 gallon drums of Ben & Jerry’s.
So dishonest. You move the goalposts from a discussion of the direct aftermath of the election and how each campaign responded to it, to a discussion of the policy of how to deal with election reforms to avoid these electoral blunders in the future, by bringing up the Secretary of State project.
You try to conflate the two because only in that way can you even remotely try to make it look like both teams are equally bad. Because in this case, if you are going to make a fair comparison, both teams are NOT equally bad. Team Red, and specifically Trump, is far, FAR worse.
If you look at how each campaign directly responded to the election result itself:
Did each campaign make every legal argument that they could think of, including unconventional and 'creative' ones, to justify trying to win? Yes. And no one here begrudges either of them exercising their rights to pursue judicial remedies, although we might mock some of their more ridiculous arguments.
But that is where the similarity ends.
In 2000, when the election was finally complete, Gore conceded. He did not use his power as VP to try to subvert the counting of the Electoral College results (as Trump tried to get Pence to do). He did not assemble a mob to try to protest at the Capitol to "stop the steal". He "accepted the finality of the outcome". That was the right thing for him to do.
He did not continue to insist for years and years afterwards that the election was stolen. He did not turn the Democratic Party into his own personal vehicle for expressing his electoral grievances. He did not act like a spoiled petulant little child.
Al Gore in that moment was a much better man than Donald Trump will ever be. And that has nothing to do with the politics or ideology of either man. It has to do with their character. Al Gore in that moment demonstrated that he had character, at least a little bit, and Donald Trump demonstrated that he had none.
It's not about "defending Dems", I don't care about what the rest of them did. There were plenty of Democrats who acted stupidly. There were plenty of Democrats who thought that Gore should have continued to fight on, I suppose. They were wrong. Gore did the right thing.
Talking about the Secretary of State Project is a total red herring. That is how we can tell you are a Team Red partisan. Because that is the only way you can deflect from Team Red's awfulness, by creating as big of a false equivalence as you can.
Donald Trump's behavior in response to his LOSS in 2020 is indefensible and ought to be condemned by anyone, Republican or Democrat or Libertarian or anyone else, who values democracy and self-government and the peaceful transition of power.
That is all false. Let's actually summarize this:
I point out that Team Red has behaved far worse than Team Blue. Marshal gaslights on behalf of his team to try to convince us all that AKSHUALLY, Team Blue is just as bad, because just look at the Secretary of State Project, that's just as bad as Trump whining for years and years about how the election was stolen. This is bullshit, Marshal knows this is bullshit, but this is how he pimps for his team.
Just stop with your lies. You are completely discredited here. Your only friends are the pedophile, and the Marxist. Even Driinky McDumbass doesn’t like you all that much.
Now fuck off, adults are trying to have a conversation here.
Now fuck off, adults are trying to have a conversation here.
See? This is why I advocate everyone blocking the worthless chumps.
Can you imagine how much they'd hate it if everyone stopped giving them any attention?
Its easier to get the lefts talking points from Jeff and sarc then also visit NYT or WaPo.
Not sure. NYT and WaPo may be pithier.
The difference in these two paragraphs is the best way to demonstrate Jeffey's continued propaganda:
Did each campaign make every legal argument that they could think of, including unconventional and ‘creative’ ones, to justify trying to win? Yes. And no one here begrudges either of them exercising their rights to pursue judicial remedies, although we might mock some of their more ridiculous arguments.
Is this what Jeffey asserted before? Has any leftist or Anti-Trump libertarian what would be largely a defense of Trump? Not once has Jeffey asserted this. Why is he changing his position only now?
In 2000, when the election was finally complete, Gore conceded. He did not use his power as VP to try to subvert the counting of the Electoral College results (as Trump tried to get Pence to do).
In reality Trump's exploration of his powers in this venue is essentially the same as his efforts in the other venues: pushing for the maximum rights he could achieve (just as Gore did). The only difference is a change of venue. In fact nothing happened in the EC, and even if it had it would have been overruled. This is no different than illegitimate claims in court. It defies logic to claim that only this specific type of corruption matters.
In reality it's the demand of action in any venue that is acceptable or not. The moment Gore demanded a recount in only favorable counties he proved himself corrupt, and confirmed it later by demanding different standards in different locations, including standards any rational person understood were corrupt. But Jeffey pretends the EC issue is the only thing that matters because his political allegiance demands he both attack Trump and exonerate Gore. So he does, it's his nature. The values he states are not actually true, they are just what would have to be true for his preferred outcome to be supportable. As with other leftists he simply doesn't care they are not true.
You move the goalposts from a discussion of the direct aftermath of the election and how each campaign responded to it, to a discussion of the policy of how to deal with election reforms to avoid these electoral blunders in the future, by bringing up the Secretary of State project.
The interesting conflict here is his demand we evaluate only the immediate aftermath when referring to facts he prefers not to consider. But concurrently he claims the damning factor for Trump is his continued claims over that same timeline. Extended time is irrelevant when it hurts, and the key issue when it helps.
How convenient. Not only must everyone's evaluation period end exaclty when he demands, it must also continue for others exactly as he demands. Stronger analytics don't require such leaps and omissions.
Then he tries to claim it is a separate issue when in reality is was an explicit response to the event. He'll say whatever he has to do pretend they aren't linked.
He did not turn the Democratic Party into his own personal vehicle for expressing his electoral grievances.
Nor did he need to. The Democratic Party already has entire institutions devoted to driving these movements, many funded in whole or part through taxes exacted from us. Dems have continued to push the "Bush was illegitimate" theme for decades with exactly zero criticism from Jeffey. While he wants you to believe Trump's actions are the worst thing an American has ever done if he really believed that he certainly would have mentioned the Dems decades-long efforts. But as he admits "[he doesn’t] care about what the rest of them did." That's as plain as it gets. If Jeffey really believed in these claimed principles sufficiently to justify such outrage at Trump he would have cared when others broke them as well. But as he admits and we've seen from his comments before and since we know he doesn't.
It’s not about “defending Dems”,
Of course it is, it's all you ever do. There's an important concept in economics called revealed preference. When people's choices as shown by actions differ from their claims their true preferences are revealed by their actions. That's how no matter how much you claim you're not here to defend Dems we know you're lying.
Is this what Jeffey asserted before? Has any leftist or Anti-Trump libertarian what would be largely a defense of Trump? Not once has Jeffey asserted this. Why is he changing his position only now?
I have never criticized Trump simply for filing any of his lawsuits. He was always within his rights to file any lawsuit that he wanted, and I dare you to provide any shred of evidence where I criticized Trump merely for filing a lawsuit. You cannot, and you are lying here when you claim that this is a change in position for me.
In reality Trump’s exploration of his powers in this venue is essentially the same as his efforts in the other venues: pushing for the maximum rights he could achieve (just as Gore did).
Bullshit. That is a complete whitewashing of what Trump tried to do. Which is par for the course for you. Trump asked for Pence to violate the Constitution and the law to hand him a victory. Even Eastman himself in his memo said that if Pence had done what he asked him to do, Pence would have been violating the law. Gore to his credit did not do that.
In fact nothing happened in the EC, and even if it had it would have been overruled.
You moron, I am not talking about the vote IN the Electoral College, I am talking about the counting of the Electoral College votes IN CONGRESS on Jan. 6. If Pence had gone along with Eastman's (and Trump's) insane and illegal plan, it is not even clear what would have happened as a result. Would SCOTUS even have reviewed the decision? And your blithe assertion that it's somehow totally okay for Trump to do something unconstitutional as long as SCOTUS (maybe) corrects it later is yet more proof that you are just trying to whitewash and provide cover for him.
This is no different than illegitimate claims in court.
Yeah it is different. Because in the case of Trump telling Pence to break the law to hand him a victory, he is trying to take the law into his own hands, instead of asking a court to decide on its legality.
And, let's review: Trump told Pence to break the law and subvert the counting of the EC votes BECAUSE all of Trump's lawsuits had already failed by that time. Because he refused to accept his loss.
It defies logic to claim that only this specific type of corruption matters.
It's not the only type of corruption that matters, but it's a damn important one.
The moment Gore demanded a recount in only favorable counties he proved himself corrupt, and confirmed it later by demanding different standards in different locations, including standards any rational person understood were corrupt.
You know what? That was a bad call by him. He should have asked for a statewide recount, or at a minimum a recount according to a less arbitrary set of standards. But when a court told him no, and when SCOTUS finally told him no in the end, he accepted the result. Can Trump say the same? No.
But Jeffey pretends the EC issue is the only thing that matters because his political allegiance demands he both attack Trump and exonerate Gore.
I'm not exonerating Gore, and you are whitewashing Trump. The EC issue is the one that matters the most here because it proves beyond a shadow of a doubt how horribly worse Trump is compared to Gore. AND YOU KNOW THAT, which is why you keep bringing in all of these other diversions, deflections and red herrings.
Stop making excuses for Trump, stop trying to justify his attempts to subvert the Constitution.
The interesting conflict here is his demand we evaluate only the immediate aftermath when referring to facts he prefers not to consider.
In other words you are pissy that I called you out for moving the goalposts. This article is about the Florida 2000 election, not the SOS Project. You brought up the SOS Project to deflect from Trump's shitty behavior. According to Marshal, he gets to engage in whatever logical fallacies that he wants, and it's totally unfair if anyone challenges him on it!
Dems have continued to push the “Bush was illegitimate” theme for decades with exactly zero criticism from Jeffey.
And here you go, trying to equate random cranks with the leaders of the party. GORE wasn't running around saying "Bush was illegitimate", was he? There are random cranks and nutjobs all over the place. Your standard that I have to criticize all of them is impossible and dishonest. What matters is what the leaders say, what the people with power have to say. You dishonestly want to equate every random crank Democrat who said something stupid about Bush, to what Trump continues to say about his LOSS in 2020. Trump is not some random crank nutjob. Trump is the leader of the party. Trump is the one who is very likely going to be the Republican nominee. Trump is the one who is demanding fealty to his egotistical belief that he really won in 2020 and insisting that his fellow Republicans toe the line or else. Random crank nutjobs don't have that power.
If Jeffey really believed in these claimed principles sufficiently to justify such outrage at Trump he would have cared when others broke them as well.
If Gore, or Hillary, or any other elected leader had done what Trump had done, then I would be just as harsh criticizing them. But to my knowledge, none of the others have done what Trump has done in going as far as he has gone in trying to subvert the law and the Constitution to retain power, and then having a years-long pity party over it when he loses.
There’s an important concept in economics called revealed preference.
There is. We can see from your revealed preference that you attack Democrats, and people whom you perceive to be Democrats even if they are not; and you protect Republicans, and run cover for Republicans, even though you pretend that you don't.
Who do you plan on voting for next year?
“I have never criticized Trump simply for filing any of his lawsuits.”
Sentence one is a lie.
Post your proof where I have criticized Trump merely for the act of filing a lawsuit.
I have never criticized Trump simply for filing any of his lawsuits.
Nor has anyone. It has always been the combination of the lawsuit and that what was demanded in the lawsuit was inappropriate. Here's the key:
And no one here begrudges either of them exercising their rights to pursue judicial remedies, although we might mock some of their more ridiculous arguments.
Note how he tries to bifurcate "mockery" from criticism because to maintain his new position he has to pretend criticizing the lawsuit, which he certainly did is not criticism but rather mockery. Then he maintains that fiction here by pretending the claim is that he is alleged to have criticized Trump only for filing a lawsuit without regard to the merits. Stupid, but you see how he continually digs in.
Trump asked for Pence to violate the Constitution and the law to hand him a victory.
If you claim this is true Gore also asked the courts to violate the constitution and hand him a victory. Once you apply the same standards their actions are not different. Only by absurd pretenses can he maintain this belief.
And your blithe assertion that it’s somehow totally okay for Trump to do something unconstitutional as long as SCOTUS (maybe) corrects it later is yet more proof that you are just trying to whitewash and provide cover for him.
If we were to point out all the logical flaws we'd never finish. But when someone claims what Trump and Gore did are very similar it is only by applying your own conclusion that Gore did nothing wrong that would lead to a "whitewash" conclusion, but that's explicitly not what I'm saying. The truth is you're just not mart enough to follow what anyone else says.
But the more interesting point about this is that Gore did exactly the same thing, pressure for an illegitimate outcome, which you blithely whitewash. Again this is because you're judging by different standards. You justify this by sanctimoniously holding up courts as different. But since those same courts back up any act by Pence the argument doesn't even make sense on its own merits. But more than that courts are political actors subject to pressure and persuasion just as Pence was which we've seen many times. Note again Jeffey has to reveal his fake libertarian principles, that courts are some sort of inviolable paragons of virtue, in order to make his case. In reality courts are the robed priestly caste whose role is most often to find a justification for what the ruling class wants. But the second he needs to protect Gore judges transform into his heroes.
In other words you are pissy that I called you out for moving the goalposts.
This is just your justification to avoid a comprehensive analysis. Pathetically transparent.
We can see from your revealed preference that you attack Democrats, and people whom you perceive to be Democrats even if they are not;
What you see is that I apply standards evenly and fairly, and that enrages you because left wingers have controlled media and academia for so long they believe it is their right to judge others by standards they fail.
But arguendo let's assume for a second you were right. What right would you have to complain about it since that's exactly what you do? But that's the nature of Jeffey and the left generally. They don't care that they explicitly criticize other people for what they do. They don't have a single principle except to gain power and use it to benefit themselves.
Suppose the election really was stolen. What should congress and the VP do in that case? Is there no remedy at that point? If so, what is the point of even having congress certify the EC vote?
Utter destruction of Lying Jeffy. Well done.
lol that is all you care about, isn't it? whether someone is "destroyed" or not. Who cares about arguments?
When it comes to people that are to dishonest to have honest arguments yes.
So why are you still here then?
I enjoy conversing with 90+% of the people here. And pointing out what a liar you are.
Why are you still here when everyone else knows you’re a liar?
I enjoy conversing with 90+% of the people here. And pointing out what a liar you are.
Is that so.
In another conversation Marshal brought up the concept of "revealed preference". Do you think that if I were to go back and count your posts from, say, the past month, I would find that 90+% of your posts were directed at the people with whom you would claim you enjoy conversing? I don't think so.
I think you mainly come here to troll. I think you know that I am one of the more honest posters here, and that you enjoy accusing me of lying when I am not. I think you enjoy taking advantage of my honesty by trying to entrap me when I might make a small mistake.
In the past you have accused me of dishonesty for very picayune matters like using quotation marks improperly, for unknowable (to you) matters like my knowledge of my own internal feelings, and for matters that were very clearly (at least to me) not a matter of deception, but simply because I forgot or made an honest mistake.
I think that if I, and sarc, and the other people that you enjoyed trolling, were to all leave, you would get bored and wander away, in search of your next victim.
I think that, instead of trolling, you might take a moment to actually read what I and others have to say with an open mind. We're not "leftists", we're not "clowns", we're not the "enemy". What is so hard about that?
(Is there anyone who posts regularly here who is an actual leftist? Tony and american socialist are gone as far as I can tell.)
“I think you know that I am one of the more honest posters here,”
LMFAO.
But it's true and you know it's true. Above, you called me a liar (again) but you couldn't even identify anything that I had supposedly lied about.
And you didn't refute or deny anything that I wrote about your motivations here. I think I'm right. You come here to troll.
We’re not “leftists”, we’re not “clowns”, we’re not the “enemy”.
They treat everyone like the enemy, then whine when those people treat them the same. I call this left wing privilege. They control most of our the institutions where they create these terms. People are fired and entire movements are built around a leftist pretending their feelings are hurt. We've gotten down to such minutia they have to admit their complaints are "micro"-aggressions. But they routinely say the most offensive and outrageous things based on nothing.
You left out something important. Trump was right.
Well reasoned response, which will of course fall on selectively deaf ears.
No mention of the inherent unfairness of such close races determining the entire country's direction.
First off, close winner-takes-all races encourage corruption and fraud, and not just for President, but for every race. You'd be better off just saying that any race within 1% would be settled by a coin toss.
Second, these close races also showcase the inherent evils of a government so powerful that committing fraud is as natural as breathing to politicians and cronies. Look at the first Presidential race after George Washington -- Adams and Jefferson could only have been at such loggerheads because there was too much power at stake even then, and the fact that Adams used his power to throw newspaper editors in jail, just 7 years after the First Amendment "guaranteed" freedom of the press shows that even the weak government of the time was already too powerful.
There is nothing unfair about a close race. It means the Democratic process is functioning normally.
Wait—I thought our elections were always fair and honest, and anyone who thought otherwise was crazy and suffering paranoid delusions, and was a threat to democracy. How could there have been anything to fix in Florida?
Yep. Absolutely. No cheating ever, especially by USA loving democrats.
The runoff vote count, handled by the Democratic State Central Committee, took a week. Johnson was announced the winner by 87 votes out of 988,295, an extremely narrow margin of victory. However, Johnson's victory was based on 200 "patently fraudulent" ballots reported six days after the election from Box 13 in Jim Wells County, in an area dominated by political boss George Parr. The added names were in alphabetical order and written with the same pen and handwriting, following at the end of the list of voters.
So shocking. From Democrats, yet. Who would have thought?
Except in 2016.
It was HER turn.
It’s also telling that more recent changes to election laws aimed at restoring voter faith, like the law in Georgia, are only ever seen as controversial. Fair or not, people didn’t trust the results they saw, so some procedural remedies are warranted. But because these changes occurred in the aftermath of Democratic victories, there’s no good faith given. It’s all racism designed to disenfranchise minorities.
Who told you that?
The same people whop said that Trump colluded with the Russians®™ to steal the 2016 Election?
A very strange coincidence, no?
Not strange at all once you know their true nature!
"By comparison, Pennsylvania still had around 25 percent of its vote total left to count at 9 a.m. on the morning after Election Day. The Keystone State quickly became ground zero for legal wrangling over the results and attendant conspiracy theories."
Give Pennsylvania a break. They can't count the votes until they are "cast".
This is another point Boehm missed. Democrat election officials changed regulations and even sued to allow votes to come in for over a week post election day.
It was absolutely baffling to me that they couldn't even say how many votes were yet to be tabulated.
I can understand mail in votes taking longer to check and record, but I have no faith that the process is legitimate when the count is stopped and they can't give a finite number on what's left. It looks like exactly what someone would do to cheat if they knew they wouldn't be subjected to scrutiny
There are only two legitimate reasons for broad-participation democracy.
The first hopes that by gaining input from as many citizens as possible, the nation will make better decisions. This might be true but everything from studies of human psychology and knowledge, to past election outcomes, makes it hard to be hopeful.
The second claims that if we all have what we consider fair input to group decisions, the more likely we will accept the outcome. But more than enough election bullshit has happened to make people doubt the validity of the process.
After that, elections are just pretense and entertainment.
No, there's a third, which is that the broader the electorate in free and fair elections, the inherently harder it is to buy support. There's a stricter limit to how much you can loot 45% of the populace for the benefit of 55% than how much you can loot 95% of the populace for the benefit of 5%.
Now, that still means a lot more looting than ideal. But there's a reason Venezuela's socialists had to swap from bribing the electorate to suppressing the opposition.
Journalist Steve Baker was on site for J6. He filmed some of the most important pieces from J6. After J6 when he noticed the politicization he continued to act as an actual journalist and wrote stories such as Capitol officers outright lying in the Oath Keepers trials (backed up by video evidence). Because of this, just like with Obama, Biden's DoJ has now charged the reporter.
Will love to hear Jeff's justification.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/doj-charge-blaze-journalist-steve-baker-over-jan-6
He clearly went against the agreed upon facts, so he deserves it.
None of the journalists there that day who worked for establishment media sources, have been prosecuted.
Steve Baker didn't even chant anything, he just watched and recorded, but because he didn't publish party narratives, he's going to be imprisoned.
This is outright fascism and Nazism and it's what people like Jeff, Tony and Nelson support. It's not without reason that I call them Nazis.
I love how you accept this story so uncritically.
I'm honest enough to say that I don't know what the full story is. Maybe Baker is being arrested improperly, maybe he isn't. Maybe the Capitol officers did lie on the stand in the Oath Keepers trial (it wouldn't be the first time cops lied in court), or maybe they didn't.
You do realize that Baker admits in his own writings that he broke the law, right?
Hey Fatfuck, maybe you missed the part where he said “backed up by by video evidence”. So no, it isn’t ‘maybe, maybe not’.
You really aren’t capable of even a shred of honesty, are you?
How much you want to bet Lying Jeffy will never watch any of it?
He's already proudly declared he refuses to watch any video evidence that contradicts his narrative because "he doesn't trust the sources".
This is how we know jeff doesn't ever read what he criticizes. Ever. The link to the story with video is in the article.
I read the story.
Did you read the editorial that Baker wrote in which he himself admitted that he broke the law?
Oooooh! Broke the law!
It's revealing the same "breaking the law" can be characterized as either "mostly peaceful" or as justifying years in jail depending on whether the protesters are left or right. Here our self-identified "libertarian" thinks the characterization "breaking the law" is the key takeaway. Any bets on whether he ever made a similar claim of BLM rioters?
Every comment attacks the right and defends the left. Every single one.
No, he was claiming uniformed federal Marshals and other uniformed federal police agencies were making secret arrests because they were in an unmarked (rented) van and the arrests were proof Trump was a dictator.
Now he depends those same policing agencies he was labeled the R
Trump's gestapo.
I see you didn't read the story either.
Here is a brief synopsis:
Reporter films events on Jan. 6.
Reporter writes op-ed about his experience. As a part of this op-ed, he admits to breaking the law.
Reporter is interviewed by the FBI.
Reporter is informed that he is going to be arrested.
Reporter claims "I'm going to be arrested because I filmed the cops lying on Jan. 6!"
Well, maybe. Or, maybe it's because he admitted to breaking the law in his own article.
Principals not principles.
Hurley contends Rep Swalwell helped Hunter Biden violate federal law by ignoring a legally authorized subpeona.
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/4363154-eric-swalwell-and-the-politics-of-contempt/
Hey wait just a minute here. Jacob Sullum says Hunter is being harassed by the DOJ and his 2A rights are being violated. Isn't that really the most important issue here?
Rep Swalwell even has a tweet about defying subpeonas during the J6 investigation.
https://twitter.com/mirandadevine/status/1736168082739998903
Early voting means more time to count votes, but it also means more time for shenanigans. You can't discount that. Early voting should allow a little flexibility for people who have a conflict on election day, nothing more. That's a week at most. For anyone else there are absentee ballots.
And the flexibility should include recorded drop offs of ballots. The same standard for in person voting. If a delegated person drops it off, that person is recorded.
That's what I think. If you want to have early voting, preferably in person rather than drop-off (which is seriously subject to shenanigans), then for a Tuesday election, no earlier than the preceding Wednesday. The 2 consecutive days of balloting that some countries have is fairly attractive too.
Early voting shouldn't be a thing at all. Make the day a mandatory national holiday. Provide for voting in hospitals, retirement homes, emergency facilities, etc. maybe with mobile ballot boxes. Overseas military and government employees vote at ballot boxes at bases and embassies, exceptional cases can apply to vote by mail with approved justification.
Everyone else is in-person at the polling site, with paper ballots, ID and purple fingers.
Counting will be televised and broadcast on the internet where residents can watch their on station on the internet. No count can proceed without 75% of the scrutineers present.
The Democrats pretend that voting is extremely important to them, but then treat those ballots like used toilet paper.
That all sounds racist somehow.
The true racists thinks minorities are too dumb to follow basic rules. Racists like Jeff.
The purple die changes skin color, so unacceptable.
Ha ha PA had 25% in reserve. Probably about 90% of that 25%w was Philly and Pittsburgh.
But what a fair election!
No bohem, once again you are retarded.
FL kicked out the corrupt progressive election officials
Do the world a favor and commit suicide
^This .... As someone else pointed out. 'Progressives' are criminals.
From their ignorance/lawlessness of the Supreme Law to compulsively insisting everyone else's stuff is 'their' stuff. Criminal intentions through and through. So why would anyone expect them to have a change of heart when it came to counting ballots. They don't live on principle; they live on [WE] mobs of criminal intent.
I’ve been saying that progressive are criminals for decades now. I’m glad everyone is catching up. Now we just need to get rid of them.
Since it's obvious that reason has not gotten the memo about DeSantis having no hope of winning, we will keep getting more Florida stories.
Incidentally, his super PAC chief (Ted Cruz's old campaign manager) stepped down, so maybe the endless stories on the state will stop.
Will that still be true when the Nazi's succeed at locking Trump up?
Koch backed neocon Nikki finishing in 2nd is their concern. These stories won't stop
Unless Trump dies, she will never win.
The hope is the lawfare works.
Nobartium is right. It's looking like even if they jail Trump he'll still win overwhelmingly. Trump dying is really their only option.
The next eleven months are going to be the spiciest since the civil war.
Or a “mugging”.
Even if Trump dies, the only result will be his supporters redistributing to other "Trumpy" candidates. Haley is running as an anti-Trump candidate, and there's not enough support for such a candidate for her to win even a plurality victory.
Checks and Balances is what is needed. Legislate what is required for election integrity and then put 5-entirely legislatively required independent entities in charge of counting In-Person only votes at the polls of which the 5 will publicly announce their totals independently.
One problem is that there is too much of ONE entity in charge with no 'checks and balances' (trust just me) and the other is legislation (or flat out fraudulent E.O.) that has literally done everything possible to invite election fraud.
The issue was whether lawsuits to force recounts in particular counties could go forward while the rest of the state would not be recounted. The Supes stopped that because of its manifest unfairness.
Now not only can't close blockquotes, but also can't edit to fix
You can't close blockquotes only when they are the first thing in the comment. Put a period in front, or say something, and they work fine, except being lost when editing, which is broken in other ways too.
Thanks.
It also ignores that counts using Gores preferred method still had W winning. They ran the scenarios post election.
Yeah and SCOTUS was reluctant to make the call until the leftist Florida Supreme Court gave them a giant middle finger. It was also the election that popularized the phrase "Democrats are too stupid to vote". Something Democrats still use as an excuse for their corruption today.
But they (the Dems) perfected the recount in Washington State the next go around. The Republican candidate won on election day. Won in several recounts. The Dems kept sueing to get more votes counted from their districts and throw more votes out from Central, Eastern Washington and the Olympic Peninsula, until they finally got the results they wanted then they sued to block any further recounts. Something similar happened in Minnesota but involved a box of ballots found in a trunk supposedly that someone overlooked.
This seems excessively blatant. But not if nobody is actually going to do anything about it, I suppose.
It was pretty big news out of the Spokane stations at the time, and as we were in their viewing area, I was inundated with it. Even the more left leaning Spokesman Review raised some serious questions about it. As to the box of ballots in the trunk, Minnesota says it's a myth, but for several weeks after the election, so called missing ballots continued to show up, mostly for Al Franken (who lost during the first count) and during the recount 133 ballots were missing and unaccounted for and could not therefore be verified and the Minnesota SecState ruled to go with the original vote tally despite not having the ballots to verify them. And of the 4130 districts in Minnesota, recounts occurred in only 120 locations.
Also, I would note that the person who claimed it was a myth, and was implicated, was a member of the DFL, and the conservative media said it did happen while the leftist media says it's a myth. It was widely reported at the time, with the myth response coming several days later. As there was no solid evidence, Coleman wasn't able to use it in court. Of course, several of the so called lost ballots for Franken never had a good explanation as to how they weren't originally counted.
There was also the issue that the state supreme court refused to set a vote counting standard, any standard at all. The people doing the recount were free to just wing it, they could even change their count standards from ballot to ballot.
The media coallition analyzed the ballots by every proposed standard, and found Bush winning. What they didn't analyze, because it was so manifestly crazy, was what the state supreme court had authorized: Just making up the rules as you went along!
Gore might have won under THAT non-standard.
Yes that's why SCOTUS reluctantly stepped in.
When the system was broken, Flardy helped the girl-bullying mystical looter Guv put his brother in office. Young G Waffen Bush proceeded to ramp up faith-based asset-forfeiture loothing till the entire economy collapsed and even redneck Dixiecrats decided food on the table was more important than race-suicide collectivism. Now that the system is fixed, Flardy has another girl-bullying mystical looter Guv eager to decree that women who have sex are actually Siamese twins, not individuals--while cops shoot blacks, latinos and hippies because plant leaves evil. That's the message.
Is it worth blocking this undecipherable gibberish?
Why are you responding to a grey box?
He may go the Hihn route and drop dead soon.
Yes.
Cartman Retarded Imperialist, Sqrlshitsy, Buttpedo, and Sarcaholic as well.
"That’s the message."
That's a message??!!
I could have sworn it was an incantation...
The left through university indoctrination is finishing Hitler dreams as half of 18 to 24 year old believe Jews to be oppressors and Israel should be given to Hamas.
https://nypost.com/2023/12/16/news/majority-of-americans-18-24-think-israel-should-be-ended-and-given-to-hamas/
Integration is a mistake example #25433.
This is blatantly wrong. The indoctrination is occurring well before these students reach university. The universities are just applauding how clever they are for having internalized the message.
Fair. Education colleges releasing activists to public schools is a large part.
The Democrats learned a valuable lesson from the Israeli-Hamas conflict.
Lesson being, the pig-ignorant American social justice mob will violently support whatever they’re told to support. Even if it’s subhuman monsters that kidnap and/or kill innocent women and children.
Heard a good comment on this the other day:
The typical college student now was born in the early 2000's. This was about the time of the first Intifada. They were not alive when Israel was attacked during the Six Days War or the Yom Kippur War or any of the times when Israel was attacked prior to that. So from the typical college student's point of view, ignoring any history from before he/she was born, Israel has always been a Middle Eastern power that has been occupying Palestinian land and oppressing the Palestinian people. So it is no surprise that they tend to be so pro-Palestinian, the world that they were born into has always depicted the Palestinians as the victims of Israeli oppression.
You and your fellow travelers shave certainly put enough afford into grooming them in the government school system, and bombarded them with anti Israel democrat propaganda. This is why you democrats are such vicious anti semites.
The typical college student cares about sex, booze, and learning to make a living after they graduate. Everything they know about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict they learned from activist professors, administrators, NGO gadflies. Notice how Jeffey completely ignores the source of the information students are acting on so he can explain their extremism and ignorance as happenstance instead of the direct and desired outcome. After all, it's not so easy to explain why professional educators are unable to teach the full history of the conflict is it?
Every comment he makes is to protect the left, but other people are tribalists, not him.
Jeff is not a leftist. Don't dare call him one. Even as he makes terrible excuses and arguments for the actions the left takes.
Don’t dare call him one.
That's right, because labeling people is wrong. Except when Jeffey does it, which is every third comment.
Notice how Marshal completely assumes that students have no agency and are being completely indoctrinated by "activist professors" who just happen to be indoctrinating them into the exact right-wing caricature of what leftists believe about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Every comment he makes is to attack the left and gaslight on behalf of the right.
Apparently Jeffey thinks Greta arrived at her climate conclusions from her extensive personal research as well.
It is so weird they're willing to put out such stupid ideas to protect their team.
Apparently Marshal thinks Greta represents all college students everywhere.
And just where and how did you come to that conclusion, Jeffy? That's quite the major leap from what Marshal actually said.
"The typical college student now was born in the early 2000’s. This was about the time of the first Intifada."
Bzzzzzzzzztttt!
I wonder what they would say if they actually learned the truth, that Arabs were some of the original colonizers, not just in Palestine but Europe, Africa, and Asia, that to this day Arab minorities in African countries continue to not only persecute African Christians but fellow African Muslims, that they have been accused of genocide in these countries, and of still even practicing slavery and that it is all well documented? Or that until the 1970s Lebanon was predominantly Christian, Iran was one of the most liberal countries in Asia under the Shah (yeah he was an asshole but not even close to the Ayatollahs)? That LGBTQ community basically doesn't exist in Muslim dominated countries (because if it was out of the closet, it's pretty much instant death)? That these are the most patriarchal communities in the world (to a degree? That Islamic states invaded Europe in the Eighth century and continue right up until the 18th century (and if you count the Ottomans putting down rebellions in conquered Eastern Europe into the 20th century) while the Crusades only lasted from the 11th till the 14th century (Crusades in Eastern Europe lasted longer but these were against Pagans and even heretical Christians not against Muslims, except in Spain, which again was a land conquered by the Muslims) and that the Crusades were launched to recover land that were Christian Kingdoms before the Muslims invaded and still had very large Christian populations during the time of at least the first crusade? Etc. Well, actually I don't wonder, because when I pointed these things out one time to one of these dimwits he actually stated that the Christian Kingdoms that existed (largely because these countries had been part of first the Roman Empire and it's successor the Byzantine Empire) had supplanted the native Muslims so that it was just the Natives returning to original religion and he didn't believe me when I stated Christ was born six centuries before Mohammad and these Christian Kingdoms existed since the third and fourth century, two to three hundred years before Mohammed. Also, he had the gall to accuse me of not knowing history.
Also, he had the gall to accuse me of not knowing history.
Did you punch him? Because after a while, the only answer to willful ultracrepidarianism is violence.
It was an internet conversation, so it's entirely possible he was troll, a really dumb troll, but he seemed pretty fucking tied to the narrative. Considering the number of people from that age group, who have lamb skins claiming their educated, who I've personally interacted with who didn't know who we fought for Independence against, who didn't know the difference between the Korean War and Vietnam War, who didn't know who we fought against in either World War (other than Germany) and didn't know what Pearl Harbor was (other than a movie with Ben Affleck and Cuba Gooding Jr and Josh Hartnett), who didn't know we paid money to Mexico as part of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, who didn't know Texas had been an independent Republic (actually ran into one of these while I was stationed in Texas, and he didn't know what the Alamo was and we were stationed in San Antonio), Etc...
Remember taking a US history class (professor was fairly liberal but we got along great as we both loved history, debating and she was Amerindian and I grew up on the Rez and thus never called her Native American, which she told us not to do as she found it insulting as we were all native Americans if born here, and she preferred Indian or American Indian, as did almost everyone I grew up with, but students still called her or Amerindians in class discussions Native Americans) at University of Alaska Anchorage who didn't believe the professor when she discussed the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo.
We've got to be the weirdest conquerors ever. We win territory in a war, whether it be against Mexico or Spain, and then we pay the loser for the territory.
And the weirdest imperialists ever. We conquer colonies, and then set them up to become independent countries (see Philippines Cuba, Palau etc).
The Biden administration attributes the slaughter of Christians in Nigeria not to religious persecution but to a conflict over resources exacerbated by climate change.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/human-rights-"advocates-urge-biden-administration-blacklist-nigeria
Based on the number of Christian deaths at the hands of terrorists and militant groups alone, the decision should be clear-cut.More than 5,000 Nigerian Christians are reported to have been killed for their faith in 2022, according to a report by Open Doors, a religious freedom watchdog group.
Leaders of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, or USCIRF, a government-created independent body that monitors religious persecution around the world, met with Secretary of State Antony Blinken earlier this week in a meeting in which the organization’s commissioners pressed Blinken to place Nigeria back on the official U.S. blacklist.
Blinken removed Nigeria from the list in 2021, reversing a decision by former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in December 2020 to designate the West African nation as a CPC.
The horrific and increasing attacks against Christians and Muslim minorities are taking place in Nigeria, Africa’s most populous nation and its biggest economy, even though Christians make up nearly half of Nigeria’s population of 200 million. Islamic radicals, including terrorist groups such as Boko Haram, the Islamic State West Africa Province, and radicalized Fulani tribesmen, regularly attack entire Christian communities, torching churches and villages and kidnapping and killing pastors and their congregations.
Religious freedom advocates who have documented the atrocities say that most of the attacks are carried out by militants with the Fulani Muslim herder population who have been allowed to act largely with impunity. Some Muslims also have been killed by the same forces, but from October 2019 to September 2022, Christians in Nigeria were 7.6 times more likely to be killed and six times more likely to be abducted by terrorist and militia groups than Muslims, according to the Observatory for Religious Freedom in Africa, a research, training, and advocacy organization.
Terror groups, such as Boko Haram and the Islamic State West Africa Province, have attacked and killed thousands of Christians and Muslims who reject their dictates, including forced conversions. Unknown numbers of Christian girls and women have been kidnapped into slavery. In 2014, the Obama administration tried to launch an international campaign for the safe return of more than 200 schoolgirls kidnapped by Boko Haram in Chibok, Borno State. Half of them remain captive, and face continued pressure to convert to Islam, while Leah Sharibu, a student abducted from her school in Dapchi, Yobe State, in 2018 during a terrorist raid, remains enslaved.
The letter notes that Nigerian media outlets also reported the kidnapping of two imams from their mosques in 2022.
Since 2009, some 17,000 churches have been burned and attacked, while many of them, such as St. Francis Xavier Catholic Church in Ondo State, which was attacked on Pentecost Sunday last year, were filled with worshippers.
“We are not aware of a single case that has been prosecuted,” the letter states.
Millions of Nigerians have tried to flee the violence. In Benue State, nearly 2 million farming families were forced out by Fulani militants.
“Some of them were hunted down in their places of refuge and brutally hacked to death,” the letter states. “Catholic Bishop Wilfred Anagbe of Benue’s Makurdi diocese recently shared video documentation of the aftermath of one such attack with numerous members of Congress.”
The Biden administration attributes the slaughter of Christians in Nigeria not to religious persecution but to a conflict over resources exacerbated by climate change."
Yeah, I read that. Muslims targeting the Christian minority, with a long history of these types of pogroms (the Christians are minority, but sizable, in Nigeria but the majority in these provinces) but it's totally climate change (like just about everything else, it's all climate change, greater than average snowfall, climate change, below average snowfall, climate change, above averaged named tropical storms, climate change, below average, also climate change, above average temperatures, climate change, below average, climate change, stub your toe in the dark, you guessed it climate change, rise in murders, climate change (I've actually seen them use that to explain why cities like Chicago's murder rates have gone up)).
How Florida Fixed Its Vote-Counting Problem After the 2000 Election
They showed that bitch Brenda Snipes the door the good!
Getting rid of Snipes in Broward county solved most of Florida's voting and ballot counting problems. I think I read that she passed away last month at the age of 80-something. Snipes was the expert in ballot fraud and she dared anyone to call her out on it (racism you know) until Governor Scott said "Enough!" and insisted she resign.
Reason, the planet includes places other than Florida. You entire weekend offerings does not.
But, Floridaman bad!
Orangestatemanbad
Florida is the only non local state in the country. Never a local story.
Reason focuses on Florida, reluctantly.
"Nooooooo!!! Don't look at California or Illinois!
LOOK OVER THERE!!! THEY SAID 'DON'T SAY GAY' AND WERE MEAN TO DISNEY/ESPN/ABC!!!"
How many of Reasons Barely Legal writing team were even alive for the 2000 election and were "there" when it happened?
i>But the "hanging chads" came to define the election
"Hanging Chad" was my locker-room nickname.
They used to call me "Butterfly ballot."
It didn't make sense, and still doesn't.
Dunno. Guess you had it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8Gf0TzygLc
Prohibit government coercion and it won't matter who gets elected they won't have any power.
The following is incorrect:
The correct story here is:
The key differences between your account and the true one being:
A) All four major broadcast networks, the then-leading cable news network, and the association of most of the country's major newspapers is a bit more than "some media outlets", and
B) The call wasn't just wrong, it may well have changed Florida's vote total by discouraging late voters.
It's why when jeff and sarc try claiming this site has no bias it is hilarious.
I have never claimed Reason has "no bias". That is absurd. Of course they have a bias, it is a pro-liberty bias.
I have been a volunteer poll worker for a couple of decades. I have worked with both computer-based and paper-based (Scantron) equipment. In my opinion, Scantron balloting is definitely superior to computer balloting. It is more robust, easier to administer, and provides an audit trail that can be completely replayed in a recount.
However, paper is only more secure when it is physically controlled. The chain of custody is paramount. For that reason, I am very much opposed to mail-in balloting, except as a last resort. I am also very much opposed to ballot drop boxes.
We must provide a completely secure chain of custody of the paper, from the moment it leaves the voter's hand to the voting tabulator. Anything less is simply insecure.
However, paper is only more secure when it is physically controlled. The chain of custody is paramount. For that reason, I am very much opposed to mail-in balloting, except as a last resort. I am also very much opposed to ballot drop boxes.
People have been voting by mail around the country for decades. It increased a lot in the last 20 years, with multiple states (like Florida) greatly expanding it to more than people with medical issues and the like. But this chain of custody concern never seemed to be a major problem, like everything else I see argued against mail ballots, until Trump started talking bad about it. Both blue and red states had been expanding it for many years prior to 2020 without significant opposition. (Despite its swing state status and reputation, the GOP has had a trifecta there for over 20 years.)
There is a difference in chain of custody between mail ballots and voting in person. But is there evidence that this difference leads to increased fraud or other errors that outweighs the additional participation from voters that mail ballots enable? Especially for people that might already be marginalized in some way, due to a lack of physical mobility, living a great distance from town centers, having long working hours, etc. If you do away with mail ballots, what will you be willing to do to make sure people that were making use of mail ballots still vote in the same proportions as before?
Meanwhile, states like Pennsylvania and Arizona invited criticism and groundless allegations of impropriety solely because they took days or weeks to finalize their tabulation.
Is it really "groundless" to be suspicious of vote tabulation that takes weeks to finalize? A process that stretches too long is ripe for abuse because it provides extra opportunities. Once someone sees which way the wind is blowing, they can gauge the margins and see how many ballots they need to generate (or strike) in order to swing the race.
If there was just a small number of individuals involved, that might be one thing. But there's a rather dense bureaucracy of people involved in elections, many of whom have easy access to the voter rolls to see how many registered voters there are and how many of them voted on the day. It doesn't take a conspiracy, just one properly motivated bad actor among hundreds of people with proper access to decide they can look at the voter roll, find hundreds of people who didn't submit a ballot, and then "find" their mail-in ballots.
And the reason this is going to be largely divisive is because a lot of this entrenched bureaucracy is in cities, and cities that are overwhelmingly blue. Beyond that, government bureaucrats are much more likely to be blue than not because Democrats are less likely to talk about shrinking the size of the government. So you get a lot of distrust from people who are outside the government who don't politically align with the people in charge of processing the election. They're right to be suspicious of the possibility of "Finding" a bunch of votes in a close race to swing.
And election fraud is hardly some outlandish idea. There's a significant history of it in this country, and elections were overturned for obvious fraud this very year.
Pay no attention to the history of voting fraud behind the curtain!
Georgia Investigating 17,000 Missing Ballot Images from 2020 Presidential Election
https://slaynews.com/news/georgia-investigating-17000-missing-ballot-images-2020-presidential-election/
Reason editors: Most Bestest Election Evah!
100% of these problems disappear with sortition/lottery.
The results are known within a second of the 'selection time'. Though it obviously takes longer for the selected to accept their 'congrats you are now our critter' phone call.
While it is certainly possible for a single critter to be fraudulently selected; it is impossible for that to happen en masse and remain undiscovered. Because en masse, the law of large numbers can't be corrupted. If the selected body is large enough, every possible demographic will converge towards its true value in that population - %women, %Asian, %Catholic, %truckdrivers, %bald, %D/R/I, %30-35, etc. The more the sheer number of demographic slices, the easier it is for 'the crowd' to assure themselves that their preferred demographic is solid and the more impossible it is for some faction to commit fraud. Nor is the outcome gerrymandered even if the districts are gerrymandered.
People will get to select their critter. Maybe the selectee who's closest. Maybe the one-legged clown who understands their situation. Maybe some critter who makes a speech that resonates. People can change their minds re their prefered critter at any time and that can be incorporated in the critter votes if something like liquid democracy is adopted.
If the function of that body is limited to audit, ombuds, public accountability, transparency and other pain-in-the-ass functions; then the body/selection process doesn't even require pre-approval from the elected part of govt.
Of course - most people don't WANT fair elections. They want their side to win - and win by cheating if necessary/able.
Of course – most people don’t WANT fair elections. They want their side to win – and win by cheating if necessary/able.
This is why democracy* is government on hard mode. Authoritarian governmental systems are easy mode, where a few people with the power and willingness to use force get their way. Those regimes manage to convince a large enough segment of the population that trusting them with power is needed to 'save' the nation (or rather, the vision of the nation that this segment of the population desires to be true). Propaganda, fear, and oppression then work to maintain the regimes' hold on power. Especially by directing fear and hate to both inward and outward enemies.
It is easy for people to give in to their cognitive biases and go along with those tactics. (As Master Yoda points out, the Dark Side is the quick and easy path, and very seductive, it is.) It is especially easy to be upset, even angry when your preferred party or candidate loses. "Surely, a majority of people can't be that wrong about something as important as government? How could intelligent people think differently than I do about this stuff and vote for idiots/corrupt politicians/etc. that hate America?"
Accepting it when your side loses is the part that makes democracy hard.
*I use "democracy" in the broad sense of political power residing with the whole of the people, and that they express their desires for government by voting. The specific form that a government takes will determine how well that basic idea is implemented and how it balances that with individual rights.
Some of the praise for Florida's election reforms assumes that election officials are honest and that "mistakes" are not intentional. Early handling of mail-in ballots may minimize delays in reporting on election and suspicions by the voters, but it also gives dishonest officials more time to manipulate the counts. For example, if a large number of ballots cast for Democrats are deemed to be problematic, how is the clarification process monitored to prevent biased judgements and "clarifications?" In 2000 the mail-in ballot option was heavily used by military personal serving and residing temporarily out of their voting districts - a demographic known at the time to vote Republican, fueling suspicion that the mail-in ballots were selectively excluded from the final counts by election officials.
And the edit button still doesn't allow corrections: "delays in reporting on election DAY and suspicions by voters"
Some of the praise for Florida’s election reforms assumes that election officials are honest and that “mistakes” are not intentional. Early handling of mail-in ballots may minimize delays in reporting on election and suspicions by the voters, but it also gives dishonest officials more time to manipulate the counts.
I generally assume that most people are honest and won't lie, cheat, or steal on major things that are crimes. For one thing, there is very little personal benefit for an election worker to risk jail in order to cheat in an election. If they are being paid by a candidate or some back room party boss to cheat, then that party boss would have to know that the worker would flip on them if they were caught, so that is a risk for that person as well. And if the number of people that would be willing to cheat is fairly low, then the number of workers that wouldn't remain quiet if they saw something that seemed like cheating from a fellow worker is higher. That increases the chances of cheating being caught.
The more likely scenarios are partisan election workers and officials showing bias in exercising discretion, like you said. That can only be dealt with by candidate and party observers noting the procedures being skewed and raising a stink about it and taking it to court if not corrected quickly. Also, legislatures should be sure that laws regarding procedures build in few opportunities for local officials exercising discretion to make a significant difference. Finally, we have something we saw after Nov. 2020. Election workers or officials that are highly partisan take it upon themselves to audit results that they don't trust in ways that violate security rules and procedures. They may think that they are actually justified and have the authority to do what they are doing, but real questions deserve full investigations, not amateur hour.
Ultimately, the question of whether to trust election results is something everyone needs to work on. Politicians have self-serving reasons to raise the specter of fraud or "irregularities" when they lose. Everyone, especially those that support that side, should be skeptical of those claims and that they aren't just sour grapes. That's not easy to do for anyone, but that is what it takes to make democracy work. The simple truth of democracy is that it demands its citizens to be willing to lose gracefully. People that can't or won't do that end up working against democracy.
The best election system available is still online voting using a six-sigma "online banking" secure count combined with an in person polling place with internet access for people who don't have the internet in their homes. A voting system that is at least as secure as my online bank is more secure than any other system used anywhere to date and can easily be combined with a paper printout and a paper trail for appeals. It could also be easily and securely combine with at-large ranked-choice representative elections when American finally wake up and realize that the two-party district-based winner-takes all system does not represent their political opinions or serve their best interests in government.
And a properly designed and certified ballot algorithm could prevent confusion in some voters and almost completely eliminate the possibility of having to eliminate spoiled ballots of the "hanging chad" sort.
And not surprisingly, Florida is now a Red state, unlike similarly (or even more) conservative states like Georgia and Arizona.
And not surprisingly, Florida is now a Red state, unlike similarly (or even more) conservative states like Georgia and Arizona.
Florida is not a red state. The GOP has had the governor's mansion and the state legislature for more than 20 years, but it is still evenly split in terms of the electorate. The legislature benefits from the inherent Republican bias of the urban-rural divide and its own efforts at gerrymandering (despite a Florida constitutional amendment passed by voters forbidding it). It is aided in that kind of effort by a pliant Florida Supreme Court with all Republican appointees. (Only one is left from Charlie Crist's days, even. The others were all Scott or DeSantis appointees.)
After so much time out of power, the Florida Democratic Party is just a mess. Florida legislators are part-time, so it is hard for the party to recruit good candidates to sit in the minority with no influence. Without good candidates in the legislature, you can't build up the party apparatus to recruit good candidates for the statewide executive positions.
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