The Latest Trump Gag Order Is Relatively Narrow but Still Raises Constitutional Questions
A federal judge barred the former president from "publicly targeting" witnesses, prosecutors, or court personnel.

U.S. District Judge Tanya Chutkan, who is presiding over Donald Trump's trial on federal charges related to his attempted reversal of Joe Biden's 2020 election victory, yesterday imposed a gag order that bars the former president from "publicly targeting" witnesses, prosecutors, or court personnel. Trump lawyer John Lauro vigorously opposed the order on First Amendment grounds, saying it would stop his client from "speak[ing] truth to oppression." While that characterization exaggerates the order's impact, constraining the speech of a criminal defendant, especially one who is in the midst of a presidential campaign, does raise largely unsettled constitutional issues.
Chutkan's order was provoked by Trump's habit of vilifying anyone who crosses him, including Special Counsel Jack Smith ("deranged"), the prosecutors he oversees (a "team of thugs"), and Chutkan herself (a "highly partisan" and "biased, Trump Hating Judge"). "IF YOU GO AFTER ME, I'M COMING AFTER YOU!" Trump wrote on Truth Social after his indictment in this case. The next day, The New York Times notes, "a Texas woman left a voice mail message for Judge Chutkan, saying, 'If Trump doesn't get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you, so tread lightly.'"
The Times sees that threat as evidence that "some of the former president's more outrageous statements seem to have had real-world consequences." Similarly, the Associated Press notes, "a top prosecutor on Smith's team received intimidating communications after being singled out by Trump."
Earlier this month, Justice Arthur Engoron, who is presiding over the New York civil fraud case against Trump, barred him from making personal attacks on court staff after Trump posted a photograph of Engoron's law clerk, Allison Greenfield, alongside Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D–N.Y.). Trump mockingly called Greenfield "Schumer's girlfriend."
Trump also has gone after witnesses. "Before Georgia's former Republican lieutenant governor, Geoff Duncan, testified before the Atlanta grand jury that later indicted Trump and 18 others," The Wall Street Journal notes, "the former president warned him not to, calling him a 'loser' and a 'nasty disaster' on Truth Social."
This background illuminates Chutkan's concern that Trump's inflammatory statements might intimidate witnesses or otherwise compromise his trial. But she emphasized that Trump is still free to criticize the Justice Department, provided he does not engage in a "smear campaign" against prosecutors or court staff. "No other criminal defendant would be allowed to do so, and I'm not going to allow it in this case," Chutkan said. Trump "can argue that this prosecution is politically motivated," she added, but he cannot "vilify and implicitly encourage violence against public servants who are simply doing their jobs."
Chutkan, in short, expects Trump to act less like Trump and more like a person with a modicum of sense, propriety, and responsibility. "In advance of trials," the Journal notes, "most defendants are concerned about reducing their jail time or getting a good plea deal, so they don't argue about the restrictions judges routinely place on their speech rights to protect witnesses, preserve an unbiased jury pool and assure a fair hearing of the case. Lawyers' standard advice to clients is to keep quiet, avoid antagonizing the judge and let the legal team make all the public statements about the case." But Trump "regularly flouts that advice and appears prepared to litigate to aggressively defend his right to keep doing so."
Largely because criminal defendants typically do not behave this way, the Journal says, "there are few clear precedents to guide judges on how to ensure a fair and orderly trial while protecting Trump's free-speech rights as he seeks to reclaim his old office and defend his public reputation….The legality of pretrial restrictions and how they intersect with the First Amendment rights of defendants remains an underdeveloped area of the law because so few defendants have either the incentive or the financial resources to aggressively assert their free-speech rights while defending themselves against the underlying charges."
Lauro plans to appeal Chutkan's gag order. "He is allowed to make statements the prosecution doesn't like," he said during Monday's hearing. "That's part of living with the First Amendment."
In 1987, Trump's lawyers note, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit rejected a gag order imposed on Rep. Harold E. Ford Sr. (D–Tenn.), who was facing corruption charges. That order prohibited Ford from making any "extrajudicial statement that a reasonable person would expect to be disseminated by means of public communication," including any "opinion of or discussion of the evidence and facts in the investigation or case," any statement about a prosecutor, any statement about "any alleged motive the government may have had in filing the indictment," or any statement "which relates to any opinion as to…the merits of the case."
The appeals court noted that "any restrictive order involving a prior restraint upon First Amendment freedoms is presumptively void and may be upheld only on the basis of a clear showing that an exercise of First Amendment rights will interfere with the rights of the parties to a fair trial." It concluded that the order against Ford "is clearly overbroad and fails to meet the clear and present danger standard in the context of a restraint on a defendant in a criminal trial."
Federal appeals courts are split on whether to apply that standard in this context, with some opting for a less demanding test requiring a "substantial likelihood" or "reasonable likelihood" of material prejudice to a trial. In any case, the order against Ford was much broader than the one that Chutkan issued on Monday.*
Despite the relatively narrow terms of Chutkan's order, Trump portrayed it as prohibiting the sort of speech that she said it allows. "They put a gag order on me, and I'm not supposed to be talking about things that bad people do, and so we'll be appealing very quickly," he said at a campaign stop in Iowa. "I'll be the only politician in history where I won't be allowed to criticize people."
Through a spokesman, Trump called Chutkan's order an "an absolute abomination." Trump himself said "A TERRIBLE THING HAPPENED TO DEMOCRACY TODAY." But he immediately took advantage of it. The order "isn't about gagging me," he wrote in an email to supporters. "It's an attempt to gag the American people." Then he asked for "a contribution of any amount."
*CORRECTION: The original version of this post mischaracterized the upshot of the 6th Circuit's ruling in Ford's case, which vacated the gag order rather than modifying it.
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The correct libertarian thing to do is to stand with Trump and oppose his prosecution. I am not sure what this case is about, but I do know that if Trump is being prosecuted, then that means he is innocent and the prosecution is politically motivated.
You are really bad at this Sarc.
I know you were just embarrassed a few hours ago, but this is just sad.
But I am not sarc, I am your brother. Like you I don't really understand what this case about, but I do know that the judge is a leftie and that is enough for both of us to declare that Trump is totally innocent.
LOL. Just pathetic sarc.
But I get it. You’re desperate to praise the cherished institutions while supporting the DNC attacks using political means. But this is just sad. By any means necessary like most of your ilk.
I don’t understand. I also oppose those so-called cherished institutions because the Left is using those institutions to attack Trump. We don’t have to know the details of the case to know that Trump is innocent!
Sarc, you already outed yourself here.
https://reason.com/2023/10/17/jim-jordan-the-perfect-speaker-for-a-policy-free-gop/?comments=true#comment-10279381
I am not sarc, I am sorry that you do not recognize me, your brother. I agree with you, this case is a politicized travesty and Trump should be declared totally innocent!
And send money!
Yes, now you understand! We must contribute as much as we can to Trump because he is fighting for us, the American people! And he cannot do it alone, he needs our help! I have donated over $10,000 so far, how much have you donated?
I devote every day to getting The Don reelected for the 3rd time.
Be careful sarc. Don't want to use more words you don't know definitions to.
The whole brother thing means it could be Dee.
What happened to White Mike? Are the rumors true?
What’s the rumor ML?
Not sure what ML is referring to, but a few months ago Lying Jeffy got exposed as part of a sock farm. Since then a lot of the dishonest leftists have been scarce.
Lucky for us the pedo and the drunk weren’t deterred.
mike will be back when enb is back.
That guy ain't me.
Sad
Who's the victim?
Trump, obviously!
The democrats are placing gag orders on their political (Trump) opposition. This was also done in the early days of nazi germany by the nazi party. Throwing political opposition in prison for speaking is a standard socialist/communist tactic.
https://policestatefilm.net/
Spot on. Prosecuting Trump for a crime is proof that Democrats are Nazis.
No victim, no crime.
I’m old enough to remember when this was standard libertarian belief.
TDS broke libertarianism.
That IS the Alabama Mises Caucasian position.
HERE HERE!
1. So he no longer needs an excuse for skipping the group press conferences referred to as "debates".
2. How about he just stands behind a podium while someone else reads a random speech they find laying around?
I would totes be T's speech reader. Double-super volunteer.
You should do it in the form of a dog hand puppet named "Winning the Serious Policy Proposal Dog".
gag order a puppet, Judge Ding-Dong.
A gag order would be great…FOR ME TO POOP ON!
The judge made sure to include him directing any of his team to make a comment. And likely won't require proof of said direction of anyone on his team makes a statement she doesn't like.
Dillinger is not 'on his team'.
His refers to Trump. His is an indirect object for him which was in direction to Trump from his post.
OTOH, could Trump merely provide a forum for a speaker who wishes to wax poetic about rumors of the judge in question's love for gargling shit, without offering any sort of direction at all?
"I swear that DJT did not give me any directions regarding what I am about to say. Which is good, because I undoubtedly have a filthier mind than he does. Now, as for the rumors I have heard regarding the dishonorable Judge Cuntcancer..."
In reality, the letter of the law doesn't matter. The rule of law is dead. Laws/rules/etc are merely weapons to be wielded by those who can.
Friend/enemy distinction is all that matters now.
It is important to understand that.
Earlier this month, Justice Arthur Engoron, who is presiding over the New York civil fraud case against Trump, barred him from making personal attacks on court staff after Trump posted a photograph of Engoron's law clerk, Allison Greenfield, alongside Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D–N.Y.). Trump mockingly called Greenfield "Schumer's girlfriend."
And good for Trump. Imagine a case against a high-profile business executive, and you have evidence of a potential relationship between the clerk of court and someone with a vested interest in the case-perhaps a business rival. You'd at least find that fishy and something worth discussing, perhaps even mockery of the system.
Free speech exists for this reason, to point out potential corruption or prejudice in the system. The reason most defendants keep their head down is that they lack the power to resist through anything other than compliance. But most defendants also don't have reason to suspect that most of the key actors have a personal animus against them, specifically. The worst is general bias that they're guilty due to being accused.
You think Schumer is a business rival? Bwaa-haaa-haaa!!!!
Don’t be sad, sometimes I miss analogies too. I mean, not one this simple, but that’s alright buddy.
Well, Ed, we KNOW you're a TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit, so there's that.
Fuck off and die, asshole, but have someone mark your grave so I know where to take a shit.
You can tell how little someone understands economics or business or even money by how good a businessman they think Trump is.
How many tall buildings have your name on them?
Anybody here think Biden was sent to a war zone to get him killed so the Democrats would have a chance to nominate someone who might be electable as president?
no, no one thinks that. Biden is the perfect president for the regime.
And leave us with Harris? He should have sent Harris, she knows how to fix this shit. If not, tie her to a missile and shoot her at Gaza.
If not, tie her to a missile and shoot her at Gaza.
Just fly a drone over the Gaza strip playing an endless loop of her cackling over a loud speaker. Everyone will commit suicide. Probably a violation of the Geneva Convention, but oh well.
I think there are treaties preventing that kind of barbaric and inhumane behavior.
But fuck it, do it anyway!
Or just send her over to do a series of speeches. Within 24 hours the Palestinians will be begging Israel to put them out of their misery.
No
I sense that the Democrats are that desperate to get rid of him but need an excuse.
Having fucked up the Afghanistan exit, Biden sees the Gaza war as the last chance to thump his chest. A moment of sordid redemption. I suspect he had Israel “invite” him so he could score some cheap, nauseating political points.
The problem is, he’s a likely reason why the ground attack has yet to commence. Biden can’t be around actual bombs, rockets and shit. Real risk can’t be part of the equation. So the troops sit and wait, until he gets his foolish ass out of there.
Until then, critical time is being lost. Hostages suffer. Hamas gets more time to tactically prepare. The visit makes little sense.
Very little official presidential travel makes sense.
Well, there was that time Trump traveled to North Korea to kowtow to Kim Jong Il.
You mean Little Rocket Man?
Hahahaha
Sad.
https://twitter.com/ImMeme0/status/1714407937991463401?t=VdGjnIsALcJQH88FnitSfw&s=19
Lebanese Protesters raised the Palestinian flag on the wall of the US embassy in Beirut.
[Video]
https://twitter.com/EndWokeness/status/1714445691479535778?t=jd1WqTweiUW_WYVuH-4yHw&s=19
U.S. embassies are on the verge of being overrun in the Middle East
It’s happening right now in Jordan, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, Turkey, etc.
Why isn’t the State Department doing anything?
There’s a possibility of several Benghazis happening all at once, and nobody in the regime seems to give a sh*t
It’s all because of a comic strip.
https://twitter.com/TPostMillennial/status/1714425097917014409?t=Ad2Eg0F4Pg0BBP0uVygTMw&s=19
The current scene in Jordan outside the US and Israel embassies.
[Video]
https://twitter.com/LibertyCappy/status/1714438480405639426?t=SYL41F1jXbQuCmmYNIaYFg&s=19
Good thing Biden is in charge!
[Meme]
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1714449405187674335?t=NLYDWMNTDTjIBXV0yj5WTQ&s=19
A huge Palestine crowd has gathered outside the Israeli consulate in Toronto. They again chant about there only being "one solution." They claim Israel bombed a Gaza hospital, but some are reporting it was a failed rocket fired by Palestinian militants.
[Video]
https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/status/1714434952413032691?t=1ZvbaTf0R3SLZdMZb2xMoA&s=19
Fireworks are being thrown at the Israeli Consulate building in Istanbul.
[Video]
Considering how many times the Palestinians fuck up and end up bombing themselves, this isn’t an unlikely scenario.
https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1714451667666538889?t=DQ2SIIvqtA1JVoC294gqUQ&s=19
Protesters in Lebanon setting the American consulate on fire.
[Link]
I would say the stairs to the plane are a bigger threat.
Ahahaha.
It was the first thing that occurred to me, and I'm not even a Democrat.
Chutkan's order was provoked by Trump's habit of vilifying anyone who crosses him, including Special Counsel Jack Smith ("deranged"), the prosecutors he oversees (a "team of thugs"), and Chutkan herself (a "highly partisan" and "biased, Trump Hating Judge").
When someone speaks badly to a cherished judge, they are provoking the wrath of the state.
The language you use here is provoking actual libertarians to berate you Sullum. You can sense how much you despise Trump even more than those abusing their offices of power. I don't see any descriptors of the judge or Smith despite them having a noted record of being abusive for political reasons.
Smith, as an example, has already lost a case 0-9 at the USSC, has been violating privilege his entire career (along with the team he hired), has been accused of threatening promotion opportunities to Trump's lawyers, etc. One can accurately describe these abuses as thugish.
Just move to WaPo already Jacob.
No actual libertarian supports Trump. Trump is the Anti-Libertarian in every regard.
Especially the lack of new wars, and lowering taxes and regulations.
Remember how Trump had a pen and a phone and signed 123 executive orders, 158 presidential memoranda, 508 proclamations, and 100 notices?
Remember how Trump unilaterally banned drilling on public land?
Remember how Trump mandated useless and potentially dangerous injections for the military?
Remember how Trump pressured social media companies to deplatform his political opponents or people who spoke against his policies or published evidence that he had taken bribes?
Remember when Trump sicced the DOJ and FBI on parents protesting school board policies favorable to his party?
Remember when Trump had his political opponents house raided and lied about it saying he wasn't informed when in fact his administration helped organize it?
Remember when Trump's opponent was impeached for calling for an investigation into bribes Trump actually took?
Remember when Trump had the FBI and CIA cover up his bribe taking?
Remember when Trump had his DOJ prosecute his political opponent for phony process crimes, and then had a crooked judge put a gag order on him to affect his campaigning?
Sure is a good thing a libertarian like Biden is in charge now... oh wait.
Steaming piles of lefty shit commenting on what a libertarian might do are to be ignored.
Stuff your TDS up your ass Ed; your head is begging for company
You are so wrong. Trump is the most libertarian candidate in 300 years. This is because every day he stands up and fights the Left, and that is the most libertarian thing anyone can do. We don't need another Thomas Massie who does nothing but talk about "ideas" or "policies". What we need is someone who will fight the Left day in and day out. That is why he is a libertarian.
Yeah, despite the denials this totally reads like sarcasmic.
EdGein up there is a transplant from the Volokh side of things.
We should throw him out of this side also; plenty of steaming piles of lefty shit here already.
The lefttards that followed Volokoh here are some of the nose pig-ignorant while also being smug, condescending assholes that I’ve seen online. And I used to visit ChapoTrapHouse on Reddit.
No actual libertarian supports Trump. Trump is the Anti-Libertarian in every regard.
--EdG, no actual libertarian.
I'm curious as to the legal definition of "vilification", here.
Is there a strict standard by which Trumps speech will be judged, or merely "I didn't like that." (Ha, just kidding, I already know the answer to that.)
>barred the former president from "publicly targeting" witnesses
Saturday night one of my KSU Wildcats was penalized for publicly targeting Texas Tech's running back, but the dude is only like 5'8" it looked literally impossible to hit him not in the helmet
Ummm, you do realize that the literally possible act of directing the impact about 6" to either side would result in not hitting him the helmet?
Or is it that you are simply unaware of the literal meaning of "literally impossible?"
Gee, a fucking pedant! Just what we need!
If you're going to whine about a loss, you should pick someone better than Texas Tech. Has Trump taught you nothing?
Cats 38 - 21 Red Raiders
the kid got kicked out of the game though it was an awful call.
The next day, The New York Times notes, "a Texas woman left a voice mail message for Judge Chutkan, saying, 'If Trump doesn't get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you, so tread lightly.'"
The New York Times would know, working out of the same office as Her Honor.
every time some crazy person makes a death threat, it's not their fault.
every time some crazy person makes a death threat, it’s
not theirTrump’s fault.Yes.
Fuck off and die, asshole, but have someone mark your grave so I know where to take a shit.
Pedo Sevo has to reuse the same insult all the time. :'(
Don't you have some CSAM to distribute?
How much time do you waste each day attempting to suck your own dick?
The next day, The New York Times notes, "a Texas woman left a voice mail message for Judge Chutkan, saying, 'If Trump doesn't get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you, so tread lightly.'"
Things that never happened for $0.02
https://nypost.com/2023/08/16/abigail-jo-shry-charged-with-threatening-to-kill-trump-judge-tanya-chutkan/
Thanks, obviously a steaming pile of lefty shit!
Guess you missed the part where the nutball from Texas *admitted* to doing it.
https://people.com/texas-woman-charged-threatening-judge-overseeing-trump-jan-6-case-7644591
“a Texas woman left a voice mail message for Judge Chutkan, saying, ‘If Trump doesn’t get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you, so tread lightly.'”
Should be fairly easy to prove, and to track down the person making the death threat. Unless they were smart enough to use a burner phone, paid for with cash and discarded after making the phone call from a location they're not easily associated with (e.g., their house or somewhere equally stupid).
I doubt someone stupid and unstable enough to threaten a federal judge would be that smart, so I look forward to this crazy nut being arrested...
Or it's from Schumer and they associated Moobs with a woman from texas. Could be any Texas Democrat representative really just to make the story true but also explain the total lack of follow up on this super cereal crime that totally is true.
Things that actually happened:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/texas-woman-charged-threatening-kill-federal-judge-overseeing-election-case-trump-affidavit
Good for her, oppose fascism. But really they should leave that to the Nuremberg-type trials to inevitably come.
At least the FBI didn't raid her house to kill her like the man from Utah.
Not sure why the liberals here are promoting this when she was hundreds if miles away. Not like she showed up down the block to kidnap and kill her like the leftist who wanted to kill Kavanaugh.
Boy, they really, really don't want Trump to run in 2024.
they're doing it wrong.
No, they want him to run, and then go to prison. Win-win.
We want him to run. He's the only Republican candidate who can ensure Joe Biden's re-election.
you have it backward. He really is the only one that can beat him and all the political persecution and weaponizing of the justice system against him is only increasing his chances.
EdG in 2016 - "He’s the only Republican candidate who can lose to Hillary."
How horrible for you that your fantasies of Biden's dick as a pacifier will face such an ignoble end.
Boy, they really, really don’t want Trump to run in 2024.
Not surprising, Biden Family corruption is just the tip of the ice berg for the Democrats and their friends in the DOJ.
Many of them are looking at prison sentences if there’s a second Trump administration. Unless you believe this is all about defending “cherished institutions” against the Bad Orange Man.
"A TERRIBLE THING HAPPENED TO DEMOCRACY TODAY."
"It's an attempt to gag the American people."
The EXACT problem.... 'Democracy' doesn't ensure Freedom of Speech. US politicians and citizens need to stop being indoctrinated by Demorats BS propaganda.
The US is a *Constitutional* Union of Republican States. That *Constitutional* is what defines the USA .... NOT Democracy.
You're foolish. The US is a democracy but not a Democracy.
Show us on the doll where Trump touched you.
His brain stem.
You're full of shit. Fuck off and die.
Ed is right. While we may be a constitutional union of republican states, we're not a *Constitutional* Union of Republican States.
Our particular flavor of constitution-framed, federated, representative democracy takes the form of a democratic republic (small ‘d’ small ‘r’). The bad thing about the 'd' part is that it has a historical bias toward direct-action populism; the bad thing about the 'r' part is that it has a historical bias toward caste-based representative elitism.
They each have a path toward authoritarian autocracy, but they are different paths (revolution versus coup). Our Founders hoped to prevent that by balancing the two ideas against each other.
Trumpism, conversely, combines the worst characteristics of both, producing the means a mob-based populist revolt supporting the ends of an elite authoritarian coup.
"producing the means a mob-based populist revolt supporting the ends of an elite authoritarian coup."
You guys keep claiming that but you never seem to ever have any evidence of the elite authoritarian coup part on Trump's behalf.
Meanwhile a slow-rolling actual elite authoritarian coup by the establishment has been in our faces since 2016.
I'm not certain why it always seems to escape you that the billionaire Trump is a member of the elite, openly exhibiting his authoritarian longings since well before 2016. The fact that his first true coup efforts failed (autogolpe, actually), doesn't mean he deserves a chance at a second.
Authoritarian longings? Coup efforts?
By almost every conceivable metric, Biden's presidency is decidedly worse than Trump's.
Trump is part of The Resistance and coordinated lawfare against him?
Clock is ticking, faggot
Where's Biden's De-Regulate the "authoritarian coup" committee???
TDS and self-project is like peanut butter and jelly.
Our particular flavor of constitution-framed, federated, representative democracy takes the form of a democratic republic (small ‘d’ small ‘r’). The bad thing about the ‘d’ part is that it has a historical bias toward direct-action populism; the bad thing about the ‘r’ part is that it has a historical bias toward caste-based representative elitism.
This is retarded, anti-intellectual drivel doing a shit poor job posing as pseudo-intellectual drivel. To anyone with half a brain, this is rather obviously thinly veiled self-projection on your part. The rest of the Western World, since practically birth, is able to conceptualize "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." but here you are trying to tell us "Because this flower smells sweet, it is biased to being a rose." like a goddamned fucking moron.
There are numerous historical cases of elitist caste systems entirely without republican or other representation. Lots and lots of historical instances of direct action populism specifically because of a lack of democratic representation. There are even, hold onto your hat because I know this is going to blow your mind, cases of representative systems progressing towards monarchies *and vice versa*!
The idea that a "d is biased towards direct-action populism" and "r is biased towards caste-style elitism" is like saying brick houses are biased towards being taller than they are wide and poured concrete houses are biased towards being wider than they are tall. Humans have built houses in both arrangements since well before poured concrete or clay bricks. There's nothing about either arrangement that specifically requires or forbids either material not to mention that here are dozens, if not hundreds of other materials, unrecognizably similar or not, that could be applied even if the design somehow proscribed things one way or the other. It's entirely possible that, currently, there are more tall, narrow brick buildings than wider flatter concrete buildings but your assertion that it's because of the building material just demonstrates how retardedly brain dead, full of yourself, and uninformed at every level from material science down to basic geometry you are.
Ed's rather evidently not very bright and highly partisan to begin with, morons like you with your bad HS Freshman political science essays don't help.
The regime's prosecution against the opposition candidate is narrow, but still raises constitutional questions. Let me see if my heart is in it enough to create a case.
Chutkan’s order was provoked by Trump’s habit of vilifying anyone who crosses him, including Special Counsel Jack Smith (“deranged”), the prosecutors he oversees (a “team of thugs”), and Chutkan herself (a “highly partisan” and “biased, Trump Hating Judge”).
I'm honestly trying, with all my might to find any of those characterizations as inaccurate.
And to follow up, Reason has no history of defending people being critical of government officials... so this tracks.
"I’m honestly trying, with all my might to find any of those characterizations as inaccurate." Not surprisingly, all of your might is a pitiful amount.
3/10
Eat shit and die, TDS-addled asshole.
Lol, wtf.
Now impose a gag order on the prosecutors, the FBI, the DOJ, the media, and anyone who might say anything bad about Trump or his associates or defense team.
“Sauce for the goose” and all.
It does seem to me that if Trump is going to be prohibited from targeting certain people, those same people should be prohibited from targeting him. That's just fair.
“It does seem to me that if Trump is going to be prohibited from targeting certain people, those same people should be prohibited from targeting him.”
They are:
Note “…including the parties and their counsel” and the prohibition on “making any public statements, or directing others to make any public statements, that target” (1)(2)(3)&(4), specifically limits targeted attacks by or against…
(1) Jack Smith & Special Counsel staff,
(2) Donald Trump & Team Trump,
(4) Donald Trump as a “reasonably foreseeable witness.”
Further note this does not prohibit Donald Trump or his team from speaking publicly [emphasis added]:
Original sources help!
Ummm. No where in your citation does it stop Jack Smith from commenting against Trump as he has already done. Nor others in the trial.
On top of that the judge is the sole arbiter and has shown her bias.
Smith has read from the indictment, once, when announcing it. That's what both he and Trump are permitted to do—make formal motions and present evidence to the court, under oath, with penalties for lying.
The rest of your stuff is just cheering for your team and booing the other, with little concern as to the verifiable credibility of either.
This is a fucking lie. Lol. He went on tv and read political talking points to justify the indictment. He has also given various comments to reporters.
Again. He is not barred from making disparaging statements in any capacity despite having done so. He can also file motions devoid of logic or legal standards as he has also done. Neither is his team barred who have also made comments.
First Trump is allowed to talk about the DOJ, FBI and the media. So that part of your comment is irrelevant. What he is prohibited from doing is talking prosecution, witnesses or court staff. Note that Judge Chutkan's order did not protect herself only her staff. Now can you point where the prosecution, witnesses or court staff have spoken about Trump in an equivalent manner to his remarks about them? I would agree that neither side should be able to refer to the other as deranged.
Yes. It does protect both her and jack Smith. You are wrong.
No, liar. It doesn't protect her. Here's the full text of the order:
"All interested parties in this matter, including the parties and their counsel, are prohibited from making any public statements, or directing others to make any public statements, that target (1) the Special Counsel prosecuting this case or his staff; (2) defense counsel or their staff; (3) any of this court’s staff or other supporting personnel; or (4) any reasonably foreseeable witness or the substance of their testimony."
We should all support suppression of speech !
Words and ideas are dangerous!
How does that not protect her and Smith? Did you just copy it without reading?
the Special Counsel... any of this court’s staff
Fucking retard.
They don't even read their own citations.
Read the citation, beginning with "...that target" [hint: keep track of each "or"]
(1) the Special Counsel prosecuting this case or his staff;
(2) defense counsel or their staff;
(3) any of this court’s staff or other supporting personnel;
Notice who is not on either side of an or? Judge Chutkan—an obvious absence that has been widely noted, though perhaps not much in your limited sources.
So, the cite to the original source verifies that the order protects potential witnesses and three other entities: the prosecution, the defense, and the court. Of these three, all address staff but only two address a senior manager.
To repeat Ed's accurate reply to your comment: "No, liar. It doesn’t protect her."
Donnie Trump is no more deranged than Colorado Army Of God clinic gunman Robert Dear. In fact, Donnie could maybe ex-post-retroactively pardon Bobby and have him as a pro-wife running mate.
Hey Sullum, gfys.
Were you raped by a priest? Repeatedly?
Uh, that's a pretty random assumption to make about someone else. One might surmise that it's a projection that says more about you than them.
I was trying to offend the OP. Apparently, my words hurt you too. Fantastic, I was hoping for a larger blast radius.
Jesus fucking Christ, people here are delicate flowers. Bunch of fucking whining pussies.
I think you mostly just looked like a retard, rather than actually offending anyone. Try actually responding to the content of a post, rather than just spewing random insults.
Trolling rated 3/10, low effort. Points granted for actually spelling everything correctly and using punctuation.
Wait, "raped by a priest" and " people here are delicate flowers"...
Hey Shrike.
Apparently, my words hurt you too.
Iteratively, I expressed no injury or feelings about your words to me or anyone else one way or the other. My conclusion was a flat recognition of the fact that the odds that he got raped by a priest are pretty low and the fact that you would know or just guess such a fact correctly over the internet are incredibly low.
If you imagined or need to imagine someone as being hurt by your flights of fancy about getting raped by a priest, that’s all you.
Well that was a weird question. Were you fingered in your ass by your mom’s boyfriend?
This is a fantastic test case for the 1A. Super complex with novel legal challenges all around. I need to stock up on JiffyPop™ because this is going to get good.
Trumps attorney was spot on, he can spew whatever shit he wants especially if the government doesn't like it.
I find that gag orders are largely unconstitutional. They are an imaginary tool created by the left to give judges more power than they should have.
If what he says is criminal, charge him. If it's tortuous, sue him. If it's neither, then he should be able to say it.
Calling Jack Smith "deranged" is libelous.
Calling you stupid is generous.
No it isnt. It is an opinion.
An opinion supported by facts, according to Diarrheality's post below.
From the AFPI:
"Deranged" seems pretty spot-on to me.
His team has also been shut down by various courts. A regular deranged team violating many legal ethics.
These seem like pretty accurate statements to me.
Really can you offer a citation proving Jack Smith is deranged? And Trump considered any judge he faces as hating him.
I mean the Supreme Court smacked him down a decade ago stating his entire prosecution was a corruption of the charges he attempted.
So if Special Counsel Jack Smith sues you for libel, what proof of his derangement can you offer in evidence? Likewise, the alleged "team of thugs". When you're in court being sued for libel, what proof of that claim do you have?
Some of us can recognize "reality", unlike steaming piles of lefty shit
Leftist retards don't understand opinion even woth hyperbole is protected speech.
Yep, you can't expose leftists to the truth without hurt feelings and epic tantrums which is what this is.
Darrell Brooks was tried in 2022 for driving his car through a Waukesha (WI) Christmas parade killing several people. During the trial Mr. Brooks acted badly on several occasions and Judge Jennifer Dorow took actions necessary to ensure the trial could continue as was appropriate. Judge Dorow was roundly praised for her actions in the trial. Now Mr. Brooks is a poor black man accused and eventually convicted of murder. He did not get bail and does not have a media company to raise complaints. He did that in the courtroom and was held accountable for his behavior. No questions of first amendment rights. I don't see a big difference between Judge Chutkan and Judge Dorrow. Both are attempting to maintain order necessary for a fair trial.
"In the courtroom" is a pretty important part of all that.
As I noted Darrell Brooks was not out on bail and had no media access, so his bad behavior was limited to the courtroom.
And Judge Dorrow's restraints on his activity were solely on his courtroom activity due to judicial economy. Believe it or not, you're not allowed to filibuster your way out of a criminal conviction-if so, we'd never have a single conviction ever because defendants would just constantly talk and bring up irrelevant issues for years at a time.
This comparison is utterly asinine.
You need to consider the source = This comparison is utterly asinine.
This comparison is utterly asinine.
"Trunk Bears ain't got shit on me!" - Moderation4ever
No questions of first amendment rights. I don’t see a big difference between Judge Chutkan and Judge Dorrow. Both are attempting to maintain order necessary for a fair trial.
I wonder if Trump will receive any gag orders while he's sitting in the courtroom?
I don’t see a big difference between Judge Chutkan and Judge Dorrow. Both are attempting to maintain order necessary for a fair trial.
Is that you Sheldon?
"I have trouble seeing an essential difference between what Kyle did in Iraq and what Adam Lanza did at Sandy Hook Elementary School."
These govern Trump's behavior outside of the courtroom you utter nincompoop.
The Supreme Court has ruled that a gag order is constitutional if it can protect the right to a fair trial and is as least restrictive as possible.
And have you looked at the case law? Generally, the (alleged) purpose of an order is actually to prevent information coming out that could prejudice a jury AGAINST the defendant. These sorts of protective orders often impact media coverage of a trial during the pre-trial period because information related to an investigation would tend to bias a jury against a defendant. That is, the prosecution has already had time to bring charges and put together their investigation, so the vast majority of the information coming out would be inculpatory, while the defense is still working on their defense strategy.
Since you're entitled a jury that is fair and impartial to the defendant, this is often considered a balancing of rights-the rights of the community and press to free speech compared to the right of the accused to a fair trial.
The problem here is that the coverage of allegations, the evidence, and many of the witnesses against Trump is already out there. There's actual legal experts already weighing in on Trump's guilt. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, this information is all out there and public. So such an order, in which Trump is forbidden from making comments about the bias of the special prosecutor (special prosecutor meaning: his only purpose, his only job is to make a case against Trump specifically, which is very relevant) is a limitation on Trump's right of free speech that has nothing to do with securing the right to a fair and impartial jury. If a jury is presently biased based on available information, it is likely to be biased against Trump since the media story about the charges and evidence has already come out.
Witness intimidation is already a crime. If Trump does that, specifically, add it to the list of charges. But you don't have a right to pre-emptively restrict his speech on the off chance he MIGHT do something illegal.
But both judges' actions are to preserve a fair trial and so I think the comparison is accurate. Those praising Judge Dorrow and attacking Judge Chutkan are hypocrites.
But both judges’ actions are to preserve a fair trial and so I think the comparison is accurate.
But since you can't make a case, a decent argument for how the comparison is accurate, you're just repeating the assertion instead of actually trying to explain why. You feel it's true, therefore you're asserting it's true.
It's not an accurate comparison regardless of how you "feel" or "think" about it. Darrell Brooks' out of court behavior was not restricted in this manner. If he'd wished to make a statement to the media, he was not pre-empted from making one. It would have been much easier if he'd retained his attorney who could have helped arrange such a thing, given his incarceration, but the court is not responsible for shielding him from the consequences of his choices. He was warned, repeatedly, about the difficulties he would incur from choosing to represent himself, and he still waived his right to be represented and fired his Public Defender.
There are rules and procedures for how the courts operate. Perhaps this isn't a perfect system but we do not have unlimited time and resources to have unlimited courts and unlimited justices to hear cases.
Note that today Trump was admonished for his behavior in the New York courtroom. The fact is that Trump is one of those people that will push limits as far as he is able. It should not require a gag order but the judges will need to keep a tight rein to keep their courtrooms to maintain order with Trump.
See?
All Donnie Trump did was set the Army of God to attack the electoral college and vandalize Congress with a comparable number of deaths, albeit treasonable ones.
I AM Making a Good Salary from Home $6580-$7065/week , which is amazing, under a year ago I was jobless in a horrible economy. I thank God every day I was blessed with these instructions and now it’s my duty to pay it forward and share it with Everyone. go to home media tech tab for more detail reinforce your heart
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https://twitter.com/ClownWorld_/status/1714388773331759611?t=c4GmDAN_vYkjOGrT9TmUQw&s=19
BREAKING: Protestors in Amman, Jordan have stormed the Israeli embassy and set it on fire
[Link]
Mostly peaceful.
...and the parody site ClownWorld racks up another couple victims.
Lol
Touche
To be fair, that 's not great as parody...closer to graffiti vandalism, just spray-painting obscenities on somebody else's wall.
I think maybe Purple Martin (and I'm sure purely coincidentally EdG too), has somehow forgotten 4th grade English, or just common sense, and doesn't necessarily realize that 'parody' isn't synonymous with 'false'.
That is, Mel Brooks did a great parody of The Inquisition. Linking to a clip of his parody while referencing The Inquisition doesn't necessarily mean The Inquisition or anything else in the comment didn't happen or vice versa.
https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1714377551160713594?t=qp-KrQ3QUFQLGxfmOYogTQ&s=19
You can’t make this up! One of the students at @nyuniversity who ripped down posters of the hostages taken by Hamas terrorists has the @ADL in her Linkedin bio. She worked for them. @JGreenblattADL
[Link]
Pretty sure the ADL is just another generic Marxist organization. They serve no actual purpose beyond being yet another group of would be Bolsheviks.
Unbelievable. Not exactly surprising.
Let's take a look at Jack Smith's Twitter feed.
Oh here's one:
Hillary Clinton owns the greatest “I told you so…” of all time.
So an incessantly tweeting, #resistance Democrat is a sober-minded, serious prosecutor chasing down legitimate charges against the opposition candidate. Keep being you, Reason.
It is so obvious that these persecutions are political. They are not just some dispassionate prosecutors pursuing some random case that came before them and they were like "This is great evidence of a serious crime I better prosecute this guy. Who is he again?"
Geez, what a dumbass you are, Diane. That's a parody Twitter feed and NOT Special Counsel Jack Smith's feed. Duh, dumbass.
“Whatever you are, be a good one”. Here for people, politics and parody. Alt @jackesmith22
Holy shit, you're correct.
Huh.
Holy shit, you’re correct.
Do you think, in Weimar Germany, if a Rabbi or some German political dissident quoted Hitler and someone on the street corrected him with "Nah, that was one of the Brownshirts Herr Schmidt, he's an even more rabidly anti-semitic parody of the Nazi Party. There's a lot of Brown Shirts going around doing that." the Rabbi/dissident replied with "Ah, sorry, honest mistake. I didn't mean to slander Hitler like that."?
Do you think a lot of people outside Germany, through history, were right to say, "Yeah, that Rabbi/Dissident really should've been more careful not to misconstrue Hitler's intentions like that."?
I’ve actually been staring at this “parody” account, trying to wrap my head around the “parody” part.
I remember a few years ago there was a Beto O’Rourke Parody account which posted parody tweets as if they had come from Beto, but had a subtle, but ridiculous tone to them.
This account is by a #Resistance Democrat, posting anti-trump tweets, under the name of Jack Smith.
So yeah, it’s like someone created an Adolf Hitler account, and spends all day tweeting quotes from Mein Kampf and talking about the Jewish Question… you know, that question all of our major universities are struggling with right now.
Edit: Now, if this were a MAGA-hat wearing Trump fan, then I might have to tip MY non-maga hat and say, “Well played”.
Outrageous behavior and speech like Trump's is EXACTLY what the first amendment was designed to protect. Witness tampering is an ACTION, not SPEECH per se. If Trump were to threaten a witness or officers of the Court with an illegal action; or attempted to bribe someone that would be a crime in and of itself. But simply calling people names should be protected. Also, in the context of an unprecedented weaponization of the machinery of the law, it's especially sensitive and extra care should be taken to preserve the First Amendment here.
B-b-but... #OrangeManBad!
headline from my local paper:
Trump is appealing a narrow gag order imposed on him in his 2020 election interference case
Did a Journolist memo come out to make sure to describe the gag order as "Narrow"?
From the same paper packed with semi-retarded journalists:
Study: Climbing 5 flights of stairs a day may reduce heart disease risk1 hour ago
Study: Exercise may reduce heart disease risk.
King County shootings prompt new office to combat gun violence
Crime isn't on the rise, but gun violence is an increasing problem.
How Hamas’s carefully planned Israel attack devolved into a chaotic rampage
Mistakes were made.
And I guess I was wrong. I really thought the 400 yards of fabric stacked up around the neck trend was over.
“I’m not saying that people need to vote for me because of my identity, that’s not what I’m saying. Yeah I’m Black and I’m disabled and I’m nonbinary and blah blah blah blah,” ObeySumner said. “It’s really, really important to make sure that when we are putting policies, investments in place that we are doing so with both the empirical data as well as the actual grounded experience.”
*facepalm*
Moore, a lawyer and former Superior Court Judge, and ObeySumner, an equity consultant,
Multiply disabled, black, nonbinary *and* her name is actually CamelCase.
[covers mouth, sniggers, points]
snigger please.
“Equity consultant”
Mother Casual: Little Mad! Stop giggling and pointing! What have I taught you? It's not polite!
Little Mad: But Mom! It's what they want! It's what I would do to an able-bodied, white, cis-male, CamelCased, equity consultant running for office. It's equity!
Moore’s views represent the moderate, centrist wing of Seattle’s liberal politics, while ObeySumner’s represent the progressive left lane.
*ctrl-f far-lef* 0/0
*ctrl-f left* 1/3
1: Seattle City Council District 5 candidates Cathy Moore, left, and
2: highlighting their status in underrepresented groups historically left out of policymaking decisions.
3: liberal politics, while ObeySumner’s represent the progressive left lane.
Ok, on #3 our stalwart reporter was finally able to at least ever-so-gently describe SOMEONE in this field as being "on the left".
News today is that Trump will have a second trial before Judge Chutkan. This is on violating the voting rights of black voters. Random judge selection Trump got lucky again.
Well that sure is just the luck of the draw, ain’t it?
Which black voters were impeded when states run elections not presidents?
How retarded can you and the left get?
EdG: Hold my beer.
It's a shame that not very many actual libertarians have made their way to Reason. 99% of the commenters are Trump conservatives, not libertarian at all.
Steaming piles of lefty shit like Ed here are in no way qualified to comment on what a libertarian might do.
Fuck off and die, asshole,
Which libertarian heavy weight supports political prosecutions?
Were you not such a bigoted asshole, perhaps you'd get that it's not about Trump.
I love when leftists assholes come here to tell us we aren’t libertarian.
That is testimony to the law-changing clout of libertarian spoiler votes. Gary Johnson's 4 million votes in the 2016 campaign caused Trump to lose the popular vote and Hillary's derelict party to lose the electoral vote. This was by reshuffling 127 of those votes from 13 States. Dems immediately dispatched communist anarchist infiltrators to add terrorist importation to the platform. The GOP responded with a mystical anarcho-fascist takeover of the entire LP. Reason, however, is still libertarian so the attacks are focused here.
I can't find the part in the constitution where it gives the courts the power to regulate someone's speech. Can someone point it out to me?
Check Article VIII, under: "Fuck you that's why."
It must be in one of the classified amendments we aren't even allowed to know exist. Or is that the super secret article VIII of the preamble?
Here is the only clear text of the Comstock law you were looking for.
https://libertariantranslator.wordpress.com/2018/05/16/republicans-banned-all-birth-control/
Near as I can tell, Roe v Wade was the first successful challenge of that law making a letter about the rhythm method a chain-gang offense. The party that wants Comstockism has to reject the Bill Of Rights that law explicitly attacks.
"We have to gag Trump because the people prosecuting him have been getting nasty emails!"
Funny how nobody got silenced when a psychotic Bernie Sanders volunteer shot up a softball field full of GOP lawmakers because the TV told him they were working for the Russians.
YEAH man! That was tooo qwokie and not fair!
https://twitter.com/upstatefederlst/status/1714099722871341243?t=I7RofmIm9TJGwSdRJbPVAQ&s=19
The only people who don't see this are people who don't want to see it. We're only a few weeks removed from 3 black guys getting acquitted of beating a white kid to death and stealing phones so his friends couldn't call an ambulance and people On Here defending them.
They want their political opponents dead, they are just too weak or cowardly to do it themselves, so they hope for terrorist attacks and Crime Statistics to do it for them.
Or, again, did you think them trying to take people's guns away was about something else?
There's a reason that, even in their own fantasies, it's the government coming to take your guns away and not them.
Even in their own fantasies, they are still under the boots of better men.
[Link]
Jacob the liar back with another DNC propagandist piece. Fuck off and die you evil marxist scum.
The order applies to all parties involved in the case. The law is a terrible law that has been twisted into this obscenity which will be overturned on appeal.
No, that's exactly what the order does - its not an exaggeration.
Either they're not oppressing him - in which case you don't need the order, or they are, in which case you need to use the law to shield them.
He should be as statesmanlike as Harris and Biden;)
1. Just because its not as broad as it could be doesn't mean its 'relatively narrow' - this order is still pretty damn broad.
2. Then she's lying. The article itself here says that she says he can only critizice the Justice *department* - not individuals. The Justice Department doesn't do anything - individuals within the department do things and Trump is (rightly wrongly - and here I think he's flailing around wildly) criticizing them.
So what recourse is available to him when DOJ and the prosecution leak and lie to the press about him, his witnesses, and his defense? All from "anonymous sources close to the prosecution?"
"there are few clear precedents to guide judges on how to ensure a fair and orderly trial while protecting Trump's free-speech rights as he seeks to reclaim his old office and defend his public reputation….The legality of pretrial restrictions and how they intersect with the First Amendment rights of defendants remains an underdeveloped area of the law because so few defendants have either the incentive or the financial resources to aggressively assert their free-speech rights while defending themselves against the underlying charges."
This is a similar line of legal reasoning that leads to qualified immunity protections for LEOs who have done something legally questionable to a citizen, i.e. there is no settled case law over the alleged rights violation. A line of reasoning the Reason staff normally deplores and finds absurd.
"The Times sees that threat as evidence that "some of the former president's more outrageous statements seem to have had real-world consequences." Similarly, the Associated Press notes, "a top prosecutor on Smith's team received intimidating communications after being singled out by Trump."
So Trump loses his right to criticize the government officials going after him because a third party made a threatening phone call? People involved in public controversies get death threats all the time. If someone criticizing government officials do not have a right to speak because that official gets an anonymous death threat, then that rather undermines political free speech and the right to protest, does it not?
The Republican party is shocked! After a black democrat was elected to 11 terms in Congress, a way was found to use Comstock postal monopoly law and bank regulations to knock him out of the running AND gag him--well and good. But to use a similar gag order on one of God's Own Prohibitionist politicians--especially a blond Aryan who rescued Comstockism from Roe--is by their lights an abortion of Justice.
Your leftarded racism is showing.
Care to bring up which party elected the first Black person to congress?