Here Is Why Trump's Lawyers Say His Post-Election Conduct Was Constitutionally Protected
When he alleged fraud and sought help from government officials, they say, Trump was exercising rights guaranteed by the First Amendment.

The indictment that Special Counsel Jack Smith unveiled last week portrays Donald Trump's efforts to reverse Joe Biden's victory in the 2020 election, including his appeals to state officials and Vice President Mike Pence, as a criminal conspiracy that violated three federal statutes. Trump attorney John Lauro, by contrast, argues that his client was merely exercising his First Amendment right to petition the government for redress of his grievances.
Lauro, who outlined the former president's defense in interviews on ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, and Fox News yesterday, said Trump believed then and still believes his grievances about the election were justified. And in pressing election officials, state legislative leaders, and Pence to act on his unsubstantiated fraud claims, Lauro maintains, Trump was pursuing remedies he reasonably believed to be legitimate. As Lauro sees it, Trump therefore lacked the criminal intent that federal prosecutors will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
When Trump asked Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to "find" the votes that would be necessary to award him that state's 16 electoral votes, for example, he was not, according to Lauro, soliciting election fraud. To the contrary, he was asking Raffensperger to do his job by correcting election fraud. Likewise when Trump asked Republican legislators in states such as Arizona and Michigan to certify his electors instead of Biden's.
What about the "alternate" electors who, at the urging of Trump's lawyers, presented themselves as "duly elected and qualified" in seven states that Biden had officially won? "Alternate electors are used in every four-year cycle," Lauro told Dana Bash on CNN. "The Senate parliamentarian acknowledged to Vice President Pence that they always receive protest alternate electors. None of those electors were counted. Vice President Pence was completely aware of the nature of the protest, of the nature of the right to speech."
In public comments and in private conversations with Pence, Trump urged him to accept those "alternate" slates and/or reject Biden's when he presided over the congressional tally of electoral votes on January 6, 2021. Had Pence done that under the scenario that Trump imagined, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives would have resolved the purported conflict. But Lauro emphasized that Trump "ultimately" asked Pence merely to "pause" the tally so that the relevant state legislatures would have an opportunity to reconsider which slates should be recognized.
This was Trump's "final ask," Lauro said, as reflected in the speech he gave during the "Save America" rally at the Ellipse that preceded the Capitol riot. "If Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election," Trump told his supporters. "States want to revote. The states got defrauded. They were given false information. They voted on it. Now they want to recertify. They want it back. All Vice President Pence has to do is send it back to the states to recertify, and we become president, and you are the happiest people."
As the indictment explains, it was not true that "the states got defrauded," at least not in the sense that fraud was extensive enough to make a decisive difference—a claim that was repeatedly debunked by state and federal officials, including Republicans who had supported Trump's reelection. Nor was it true that state legislatures "want[ed] to recertify"; to the contrary, the Republican legislative leaders to whom Trump appealed uniformly rejected that suggestion. But in making his "final ask," Lauro says, Trump was relying on legal advice from John Eastman, a former dean of Chapman University's law school and "an esteemed constitutional scholar."
Eastman acknowledged that the "pause" he proposed would violate the Electoral Count Act. But that statute, he argued, was unconstitutional, so the course of action he recommended would be consistent with a higher law, although he also admitted it was likely that the Supreme Court would unanimously reject that claim.
Pence repeatedly refused to do what Trump wanted, saying it was not within his constitutional powers as vice president. But as Lauro tells it, this was a disagreement with colorable arguments on both sides, and Trump did not commit a crime simply because he favored the side that was consistent with his cause.
Pence has repeatedly condemned Trump for demanding that "I choose him over the Constitution." He has described the advisers on whom Trump relied as "crank" and "crackpot" lawyers. But even Pence has expressed skepticism about whether Trump can be held criminally liable for listening to them.
The indictment describes Eastman as one of Trump's co-conspirators. Civil rights attorney Harvey Silverglate, who is representing Eastman, argues that he did nothing to justify that characterization. "He acted in the highest traditions of the legal profession to advise his client, even if some of his theories were at the very boundary of the law," Silverglate wrote in a letter to The Boston Globe. "There is nothing unlawful, much less criminal, about coming up with creative, boundary-pushing legal theories."
While Pence rejected Eastman's theories, Lauro says, he was sympathetic to some of Trump's claims—in particular, his complaints about pandemic-inspired changes to election procedures. According to Lauro, Pence—who, like many others in Trump's circle, did not buy his stolen-election fantasy—nevertheless agreed that it was appropriate for Congress to consider allegations of election irregularities, although he did not agree that they justified sending supposedly disputed slates "back to the states."
While "people disagree about constitutional principles all the time," Lauro said on NBC, "it never leads to a criminal charge." Trump "acted under the advice of counsel when he petitioned" Pence, Lauro added, and that was protected "under the First Amendment."
In short, Lauro says, the Justice Department is attempting to criminalize differences of opinion about an empirical question (whether systematic fraud delivered a phony victory to Biden) and legal questions such as the propriety of "alternate" electors and the constitutionality of the intervention that Pence rejected. The government's case, he argues, is plainly inconsistent with the First Amendment, which protected Trump's right to complain about the election and his right to solicit the assistance of state and federal officials in addressing his complaints.
George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley has a similar take. Writing in The Hill, Turley notes that the First Amendment protects political speech even when it is false and even when the speaker knows it is false, as the indictment acknowledges: "The Defendant had a right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely, that there had been outcome-determinative fraud during the election and that he had won."
Yet the case against Trump, Turley argues, "sets up the federal government as the arbiter of truth" and "essentially charges Trump with not accepting the 'truth.'" If Trump sincerely believed that the election was stolen, he says, "the indictment collapses," because that means he did not have the criminal intent required by the government's conspiracy charges.
"In an effort to demonstrate his knowledge, the indictment details how many people told Trump that he was wrong about the election and wrong about the law," Turley writes. "I was one of those voices. Trump did not listen to me, most legal analysts or even his White House counsel. Instead, he listened to a small group of lawyers who assured him that a challenge might succeed and that there was evidence of massive election fraud. But Trump is allowed to seek out enablers who tell him what he wants to hear."
George Mason law professor Ilya Somin thinks that's wrong. "Even if Trump did manage to delude himself into believing he had actually won the election, his conduct was still culpable," Somin writes in a Volokh Conspiracy post. "If I steal your valuable ring because I have persuaded myself (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) that I am its true owner, I am still guilty of theft. The same logic applies here. Trump had every reason and opportunity to learn he had lost. If instead he chose to indulge in self-delusion, which he then used to justify his scheme to overturn the election, he is guilty for much the same reasons as the thief who—without any justification—imagines himself to be the rightful owner of the object he steals."
Nor does Somin think it makes a difference that Trump relied on legal advice from Eastman et al., any more than the imagined thief could escape conviction by citing "cr[a]ckpot lawyers" who "assured him he owned someone else's property." In any case, Somin says, Trump "had overwhelming evidence he lost [the] election and privately admitted he did."
Smith clearly thinks evidence concerning what Trump "privately admitted," which the indictment cites to show his claims were "knowingly false," is important. But unlike the evidence regarding the election outcome, the evidence regarding what Trump actually believed, which is frequently contested or ambiguous, seems less than overwhelming.
As the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) noted in a statement about the indictment, "fraud and speech integral to criminal conduct do not enjoy First Amendment protection." But while "the government may, for example, criminalize lying on an insurance claim, or passing a note to a bank teller to commit bank robbery," FIRE said, "these exceptions must remain narrow and well-defined in our laws and jurisprudence." To convict Trump, it added, "a jury must hold DOJ to its burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that former President Trump (1) knew his election fraud claims were false but repeated them anyway—'corruptly'— in an attempt to (2) have others ignore their legal duties in order to (3) prevent certification of the electoral vote."
Lauro thinks the government cannot possibly meet that test. Trump "believes he won, and the Biden administration will never be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't," he said on NBC. "What he's being indicted for, ultimately, is following legal advice from an esteemed scholar, John Eastman, that he could petition his own vice president and ask his vice president to pause the voting on January 6th to give the states one last chance to certify or re-audit. That was the ultimate ask that President Trump made in his Ellipse speech. That's clearly protected."
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https://twitter.com/Banned_Bill/status/1688611582639546368?t=dA8o4DwL43Sm0C76bVL9-A&s=19
I used out-of-context news clips about Trump to create a simulation of what it might look like if the media seriously covered Biden/Burisma.
Might be hard to believe but, none of these reporters were actually talking about Biden. Thanks @Schineman for the voice-over.
[Video]
Great! Two things to remember:
1. Tens of millions of Americans will believe whatever you drum into their heads.
2. The media have been relentlessly drumming lies about Trump for seven solid years.
No lie made up by any media source would be worse than Trump's actual actions.
And by his actions; you mean he made you cry with his mean tweets.
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So…. Trump russia, hunter laptop, or the dozens of other lies pushed by media?
And what actual actions?
https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1688736573624340480?t=aYmSp1wl8b28ZLXUgTxC8Q&s=19
NEW: FBI agent Charles McGonigal who investigated Donald Trump for colluding with Russia, is set to plead guilty for colluding with Russia.
Read that again.
McGonigal, who was a key figure in the Trump-Russia hoax investigation, will be pleading guilty after being accused of illegally working for a Russian oligarch.
The ex-FBI agent was indicted in January for money laundering and violating US sanctions by working on behalf of Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska.
McGonigal also tried getting Deripaska off of the United States sanctions list.
You can't make this up.
So, we are supposed to believe that one FBI agent engaging in criminal activity who *investigated* him invalidates any and all criticisms of him...
... and Hunter being a disappointment and a coke head, and profiteering off of Daddy's position means that Joe just HAS be some kind of secret international Mafia Don, human trafficker, narco terrorist...
But 8 people convicted of felonies *while employed by The Mango Menace* and for things done *in the course of their normal duties* (including his own CFO) somehow doesn't mean, or even suggest anything nefarious at all.
Nope, nothing inconsistent about that standard at all.
Why is the DNC paying idiots like AbEeyore to post really inane and obvious lies on here? Aren't there only about 500 people who actually read Reason anymore?
That seems like a poor return on investment.
Because that's all they can do. It's too obvious that Joe Biden knew exactly what was going on with the millions coming into the family. He didn't think he's ever be running for president and then when he got the offer from the DNC to "save the day" he actually thought no one would ever find out about Hunter's scam. Then Hunter, the "coke head", forgot to pick up his laptop. "Smartest guy I've ever known."
"and Hunter being a disappointment and a coke head, and profiteering off of Daddy’s position means that Joe just HAS be some kind of secret international Mafia Don, human trafficker, narco terrorist"
Being on the take with foreign interests is quite illegal. And Joe very much is on the take. The significant monies coming into his Hunter and his accounts (they shared accounts, after all, so the money is Joe's as well) are a massive problem that no amount of hand waving will eliminate.
What are these awful actions of Trump, in your mind? I'm not particularly a fan of Trump, but it seems to me that in terms of actual policies and executive actions he's not particularly worse than any more conventional politicians who have held the office in recent decades. And perhaps better in a few ways.
Mean tweets and vulgar behavior. I mean, he put catsup on a steak. How low can you go?
Well, it started with ignoring the Hatch act, and refusing to give up his lease of the old Post Office Building, in spite of the fact that the law **and the lease he signed** stated explicitly that no government employee, elected official, or member of their family could benefit *in any way* from the lease on the building.
Then, he used the POTUS twitter account to try to get Nordstrom to not drop Ivanka's clothing line.
And then he had that closed door meeting with Putin, in the Whitehouse, where no one will ever know what was said because he threw out his own translator, and the official stenographer.
Then there was the time he revealed classified information about one of our Allies in Western Europe's nuclear capabilities and response plans.
All the way up to the present, and his Beer Hall Putsch, where he refused to intervene and order in support for the Capitol Police, resulting in the death of at least one, and arguably more of them. And then knowingly and intentionally lied to the National Archives, the FBI and the Secret Service about keeping classified documents, and then tried to hide them from the authorities, including (again) highly classified information about the military capabilities of one or more Allies.
I'm forgetting a lot more completely flagrant violations of the law, and tradition, and basic human decency - but those are the ones I can remember of the top of my head.
"Well, it started with ignoring the Hatch act"
Feel free to explain these violations.
"and refusing to give up his lease of the old Post Office Building, in spite of the fact that the law **and the lease he signed** stated explicitly that no government employee, elected official, or member of their family could benefit *in any way* from the lease on the building."
Know nothing of this but, yes, sounds bad.
"Then, he used the POTUS twitter account to try to get Nordstrom to not drop Ivanka’s clothing line."
Can you link to this tweet from the POTUS Twitter account?
He used his PERSONAL Twitter account frequently, which was NOT the POTUS account.
"Then there was the time he revealed classified information about one of our Allies in Western Europe’s nuclear capabilities and response plans."
The President is the person in charge of classifying info.
If he provided it --- it is not classified any longer by law.
"All the way up to the present, and his Beer Hall Putsch, where he refused to intervene and order in support for the Capitol Police"
He offered it and suggested it and was ignored. He did not commandeer the Natl Guard during the 2020 protests either, which were markedly more violent. If Congress, DC, and the Capitol Police declined his offer, that seems to be THEIR issue.
"And then knowingly and intentionally lied to the National Archives, the FBI and the Secret Service about keeping classified documents, and then tried to hide them from the authorities, including (again) highly classified information about the military capabilities of one or more Allies."
It was clearly not a serious issue as literally everybody in DC has such documents. Trump was one of the few who could unilaterally declassify them. And negotiating is normal except Biden pushed to have it treared criminally (Joe is REALLY going to dislike when a GOP President treats him similarly).
This new precedent will not make Biden happy. Including eliminating ALL claims of privilege the second he leaves office. I'd like SOME evidence of him revealing classified info afterwards because the "example" most people use involve newspaper clippings alone.
Hmmm, no explanation from AbEeyore. Challenge not accepted. I guess he has no logical fact-based rebuttal.
There is this REMARKABLE invention called Google, and if you type in the words Donald Trump, Nordstrom, Ivanka - and amazingly enough, it returns a huge list of articles about it. Including this one!
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/08/514203791/trump-slams-nordstrom-for-dropping-ivanka-s-clothing-line
- and Remember, read PAST the first sentence.
Weirdly, if you use that technological miracle, and type in DC Post Office lease violation, it returns several articles that reference the following clause in the lease...
Article 37.19: No member or delegate to Congress, or elected official of the Government of the United States or the Government of the District of Columbia, shall be admitted to any share or part of this Lease, or to any benefit that may arise therefrom; ….2
Im terribly sorry that you are either too lazy, or too stupid to find coverage of major news stories on your own. Maybe you are on the wrong site? The tag line for the site is Free Minds, and Free markets, not Empty Minds and Masturbatory Fantasies.
And there are TDS-addled shit-piles who repeat lies regarding Trump constantly, TDS-addled shit-pile.
Do you have to be a lying asshole to become a TDS-addled pile of shit, or do you become one after deciding to be a TDS-addled pile of shit?
law professor Ilya Somin
What an idiotic comparison. How is this guy a law professor?
+++ Great job on the video Nardz
>>The indictment that Special Counsel Jack Smith unveiled last week ...
still can't believe your next five words are not was a clown college syllabus
Let’s not forget that Jack Smith has donated thousands to democrats, including Joe Biden.
Let's not forget that his wife was the donor, not him. Sauce for Thomas, sauce for Smith.
Jack Smith's wife, but others on his team recently donated themselves.
For example, David Rody, a DOJ prosecutor on Smith's team, gave $5,600 to Biden's 2020 campaign and almost $7,000 to other Democratic causes from 2018 to 2022, according to campaign finance disclosures.
So you agree that Jack Smith did not make donations, contrary to VM's strong assertion.
What did I just say, shillboy.
Diet Shrike is confused by English apparently.
Diet Shrike: just one calorie, just as dumb.
I'm not the senile clown who forgot something that never happened - you, not Biden, just to clarify...
Poor baby. Did I hurt your feelings?
Do shrike socks have feelings?
I have no idea, not being one.
LOL no.
No, you're an obnoxiously arrogant lying pile of TDS-addled shit.
Fuck off and die; make the world a better place.
No, you’re the other senile clown.
Smith's wife produced the recent docuganda on Michelle Obama.
When you get caught lying, always double-down!
Hey, Reason, why are you making any case at all? Trump broke no law. Never mind the constitution; if he broke no law, there is nothing to arrest him for.
Only a dysfunctional moron, of which there are many in America, thinks that the Trump persecution is just normal exercise of justice. It is banana republic persecution, essentially the same as what Putin has done to Navalny.
My hope for Americas future is that Trump is elected, both houses of congress go republican, and all the Bidens, James Comey, Hilary Clinton, and Merrick Garland all get sent to prison where they belong. Or, you know, executed for treason, as the constitution calls for.
I think your idea of what constitutes law and law-breaking is a trifle buggered up.
No need to bring your personal activities into this.
Really? How so?
You know what's really buggered up? Arresting your political opponents on fraudulent and phony charges.
That's banana republic shit.
Remember that the first shampeachment of Trump, was for him asking Zelinskyy about the involvement of "his expected-to-be political opponent" in the Burisma/prosecutor case.
Now, we have Biden going after his literal, current political opponent, and no one is asking why Biden's not being impeached for the same thing.
Nobody needs to ask why, we all know there are two sets of rules in this country.
Wrong.
There are no rules- just weapons (the rules themselves).
The American people need to accept this fact and decide what rules they'll follow.
Kill or be killed.
I think you're full of shit.
Notice that George Mason law professor Ilya Somin writes in a Volokh Conspiracy post that Trump violated the law only “if there is overwhelming evidence to the contrary” that there wasn't fraud or “if everybody else disagrees” that there was fraud. These qualifications don’t exist since “the government can’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Biden won”, and in fact has found fraud. There are a lot of questions still pending regarding 2020.
What do you mean, "the government can't prove beyonda reasonable doubt that Biden won?" Of course it can. It can call the chief election officials of every state whose results Trump challenged without evidence, and they will all testify under oath that they continuously look for, and explore credible claims of, election irregularities including (unspecified by Trump, and refuted as to Giuliani and Powell with the voting machine companies) fraud. They will testify upon solemn oaths taken before and again that the results they CERTIFIED ACCORDING TO LAWS CAREFULLY DEVELOPED BY BYPARTISAN LEGISLATURES AND COMMISSIONS OVER THE PAST CENTURY, are and were accurate, authentic, verified, in many cases recounted. To the contrary, Trump's lawyers can adduce absolutely zero evidence that any certified outcome in any particular state was erroneous, much less fraudulent, much less the result of any specific, articulable scheme committed by any known or knowable person or persons, which could have remotely have changed the outcome in ANY state. Period. I am a 30-year judge. I know what constitutes proof, and the above, which the government can EASILY prove, is proof beyond a reasonable doubt in the mind of ANY court or jury qualified to hear the case.
Vladimir Putin could prove he “won” too, even if no one really believed it.
If you have a rubber stamp you can make anything true, just ask Saddam Hussein about his elections.
Tell me, judge, just how many cases of someone, "under oath" actually being prosecuted for lying?
I'll bet the instances can be counted on one hand, because prosecutors don't want to waste time with such things, especially if the prosecutor - in this case the corrupt Garland - is on the same side as these "chief elections officials".
Everyone in the political establishment was fine with Trump being denied his re-election, by whatever means necessary.
There was circumstantial evidence, on a level that would have been sufficient for a murder conviction, of a stolen election.
Before, during, and after election day.
Circumstantial evidence sufficient for a murder conviction? You're not a lawyer, are you? SIXTY COURT CASES FAILED. There's a reason why they all failed, no matter which president appointed the judges and no matter which attorneys or witnesses appeared. THEY HAD NO EVIDENCE. And you say you have it? Dollars to donuts you are not even a law student and couldn't earn a qualifying LSAT score. And ditto for whatever unnamed source you're relying on for your transparently false "information."
“There’s a reason why they all failed”
Because they were dismissed out of hand for lack of standing, etc?
Now you want special rules of court procedure, just for Trump to "prove" his cases? Why? What's wrong with the normal rules, which have been used in every other circumstance in the US courts for decades?
Trying to act like those 60 cases were lost based on the facts/merit instead of on procedural grounds (which is what Hickamore did) is disingenuous as fuck AND I didn’t even imply that the rules should be changed.
Yes Trump's plea was dismissed by 60 courts that did so WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE CASE because every court was too chicken to deal with it. Yet you and every other sad lummox with TDS buy into the media lie that 60 courts actually looked over the details and ruled on it against Trump. Try finding an honest news source for a change.
North Korea, Iraq under saddle, venezuela, soviet Russia, mao can all prove they won. But in reality a government certifying something without an outside audit isn't proving anything. A certification is not proof, but a government signature.
Under saddam*
Prove it, you corrupt totalitarian cancer.
Somin's theory is interesting for about a minute and a half. About the time you start to realize that Somin is manifesting the final stages of Trump Derangement Syndrome (DSM-III R48.9) you should start to lose interest.
Lol, Trump derangement isn't a syndrome; it's a fact.
That's my reading: That Trump is being accused of doing things that were legal to do, but that, taken in the aggregrate, aimed at a result that would've been contrary to what was thought to be the legal outcome. By this standard, putting up a defense in any criminal case becomes illegal for both the lawyer and the defendant unless the defendant is acquitted of the original charge. Also, petitioning government for redress of grievances becomes illegal if it causes government apparatchiks to feel threatened. An election campaign would turn out to be a bunch of criminal actions by a large number of people if it were discovered that the candidate was ineligible for the office.
It's also the logic government attempted to use when doctors prescribed marijuana, because it supposedly facilitated an illegal act, even though the laws cannot criminalize medical advice (which is what a prescription is), but only determine the conditions under which a prescription conveys the legal privilege of being filled. That government theory was not sustained, so I don't think they'll be able to do it against Trump either.
I wonder if the Framers of the Constitution would have considered it to be a crime, if petitioning the government, for a redress of grievances, happened at the seat of government.
I doubt they considered the Capitol building, the sacrosanct edifice, the DOJ is treating it as.
The founders would have burnt the current government to the ground years ago.
Definitely!
And doxed the hell out of faggots like hickamore
What you're overlooking is the fact that at no time did Trump, or anyone in his orbit, possess anything remotely resembling competent evidence of wrongly certified election results in ANY state, much less enough states to turn the Electoral vote his way. Sixty court cases filed, sixty court cases lost because of no evidence. Republican electoral officials who voted for Trump, in state after state, swore a true certification of results and never wavered despite Trump's threats and entreaties. Because there never existed any factual predicate for Trump's subsequent actions, those actions were not even arguably "petitions for redress of grievances." Trump had no legally redressible grievance and never offered any evidence of mistake or fraud. "I lost the election" is not a redressible grievance. Only "I can prove the certified result is not only inaccurate, but that I won a majority of the lawful votes in this jurisdiction" is a redressible grievance. As for the physician analogy, the patient's health is actually, diagnostically disordered; the 2020 pres election results were NOT disordered, and Trump's own attorney general and WH counsel told him so.
Hey dumdum everything you wrote is wrong. Over a dozen court cases if illegal election changes. Settled by courts tens of thousands of illegal votes to PO boxes and non existent addresses admitted to but never challenged by state AGs. Tens if thousands of people voting in wrong districts.
Everything you wrote was a lie based on ignorance.
Yeah, but are you going to be a libertarian (aka far right extremist) and listen to your own eyes and ears or be a good citizen and listen to what the government narrative is?
So what? It's legal to be wrong. It's legal to believe things that everyone else thinks are false. It's legal not to believe evidence that others present to you. It's legal to reject the advice of your lawyers or the AG. It's legal to petition the government for redress of grievances no matter what those grievances are, even if they make no sense.
"Trump broke no law. Never mind the constitution; if he broke no law, there is nothing to arrest him for."
This misses the mark by quite a bit. The only way to find out if you have broken a law is to be found guilty or not guilty at trial. The only questions here are: 1) is there enough factual evidence to justify a prosecutor bringing charges under the law; and 2) is that law unconstitutionally broad and vague. In this particular case the issue is clearly the unconstitutional law that the prosecutor is charging Trump with intentionally violating. When you add to that the fact that what Trump is accused of doing doesn't seem to even come close to the actual wording of that unconstitutionally broad and vague law and you're left with the conclusion that this is a political attack by a partisan prosecutor using a weaponized law.
The only way to find out if you have broken a law is to be found guilty or not guilty at trial.
That's not exactly true. If you concede that you did all the actual conduct you're accused of doing, a judge can make a determination of law that the alleged conduct violates no laws. I think for most of Trump's indictments, a legal determination should be made to get cases dismissed before they reach a jury stage.
The jury rules on the facts, not the law. They decide if the conduct actually took place, and when they determine what the facts are, they're given a factual framework in which to place the acts of the accused.
Well, for one thing I didn't say "jury" trial. For another thing a judge dismissing charges de facto occurs AFTER the charges are brought to the judge - the equivalent of a trial. And finally my point was in the context of a prosecutor bringing charges. The prosecutor doesn't get to decide if you're guilty or not; or whether the law is unconstitutionally broad or vague.
It would be "banana republic" for DoJ to do nothing. The vast majority of Americans believe in the rule of law and that everyone should be held accountable for their actions.
The feds aren’t sending their best.
I think they actually are.
Lol
“It would be “banana republic” for DoJ to do nothing.”
Lol wut?
Not charging your political opponent with frivolous and fraudulent charges is banana republic? Wow.
That’s the thing ML: morons like Rick think he absolutely, without question, broke the law.
The rule of law worked in this case. Trump said all the stuff he said. The election still got certified with no problem and hardly any delay.
Ah, the heart of American Libertarianism laid bare.
A Government Official called other Government Officials and encouraged them to ignore, or blatantly break the law – but it’s okay, because you like him.
A Government Official ignored more than 60 court rulings that found no meaningful evidence of his “Alleged Election Fraud”, and continued to publicly state – VIA OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT CHANNELS – that it had happened anyway – but it’s okay, because “he really, really believed he was right”.
A Government Official – IN HIS OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT CAPACITY – called on non government employees to interfere in the lawful conduct of government business – but it’s okay, because GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS have absolutely no responsibility or duty to avoid using their instruments and privileges of office to advance a self serving agenda – as long as they are *completely and totally certain* that the Judicial Branch was, like, really wrong, and the Legislative Branch was *making a mistake*, and all the Judges and Lawyers that were telling him [he was] wrong were just dumb.
You never actually believed in Responsible, Accountable Government, and The Rule of Law. Those are just clubs that you use to attack people and policies you don’t like.
Again, when this is used against Democrats --- and, guaranteed, it will be --- do not whine or complain.
You cannot put this genie back in its bottle.
When what is used? Please remind me the last time "the Democrats" tried to burn down the Reichstag?
Please remind me the last time "the Democrats" encouraged their base to resort to violence to keep them in power.
If that ever happens, I'll be just as excited to see them indicted as I am to see Mango Mussolini - just like - and this might confuse you a bit - I'm completely fine with Hunter Biden going to prison because he actually committed a crime beyond "being a Democrat" and "pursuing policies that I don't like", and just like I was disappointed, but okay with it, when Al Franken resigned for doing something once, 20 years ago that the GOP considers "normal behavior".
The only "Genie" here is his Beer Hall Putsch - and it is already, and will continue to fuck up your much treasured economy for decades to come - or did you miss that our credit got downgraded last week?
"When what is used? Please remind me the last time “the Democrats” tried to burn down the Reichstag?
Please remind me the last time “the Democrats” encouraged their base to resort to violence to keep them in power."
I thought you guys were already talking about 2020.
"When what is used? Please remind me the last time “the Democrats” tried to burn down the Reichstag?"
They've disputed every election loss since 1988. Prepare for criminal prosecution in the future. Hell, should go back and prosecute prior ones as well.
"Please remind me the last time “the Democrats” encouraged their base to resort to violence to keep them in power."
Summer of 2020. Even bailed criminals out of jail. And Dem cities give them money on top of that. Might need a DEEP federal investigation on whether ANY
"When what is used? Please remind me the last time “the Democrats” tried to burn down the Reichstag?"
They've disputed every election loss since 1988. Prepare for criminal prosecution in the future. Hell, should go back and prosecute prior ones as well.
"Please remind me the last time “the Democrats” encouraged their base to resort to violence to keep them in power."
Summer of 2020. Even bailed criminals out of jail. And Dem cities give them money on top of that. Might need a DEEP federal investigation on whether ANY federal monies were used in these "settlements".
"If that ever happens, I’ll be just as excited to see them indicted as I am to see Mango Mussolini – just like – and this might confuse you a bit – I’m completely fine with Hunter Biden going to prison because he actually committed a crime beyond “being a Democrat” and “pursuing policies that I don’t like”"
Biden took the money. Biden directly protected Hunter's benefactors in Ukraine with an unconstitutional demand to release Congressionally approved guarantees. He took Hunter with him on Air Force Two to have China provide him millions of dollars.
Joe is one of the dirtier pols in memory.
"The only “Genie” here is his Beer Hall Putsch – and it is already, and will continue to fuck up your much treasured economy for decades to come – or did you miss that our credit got downgraded last week?"
Yes, a riot with only one death and minimal damage is what led to a credit downgrade. Not Biden spending incessantly and ignoring the SCOTUS in pursuing funding policies that violate the Constitution.
Leave Libertarianism out of this. This is between Dems and Pubs.
Did you forget the URL where you posted this comment? Do you not know who edits this rag?
LOL. Reason is Libertarian? And you know your comment was directed at the commenters, not the article.
Only a dysfunctional moron, of which there are many in America, thinks that a Trump re-election would do anything more than harm the United States. Then again, only a dysfunctional moron, of which there are many in America, thinks that a Biden re-election would do anything more than the same.
Maybe they should elect you?
Somin hardly enjoys the same reputation as Turley. Turley has his resume'. Somin has his Play-Dough and propeller beanie.
Giuliani has more of a reputation than Somin as well. 🙂
Whats Jack Smiths reputation? Seems to be a long history of misconduct including repudiation at the USSC.
simp loser who panic-talks because he knows he's lying.
America's Mayor?
For sound economic perspective go to https://honesteconomics.substack.com/
Going to Scotland newpapers for my libertarian news.
Too local.
This is junk science. The lockdowns killed the first wave everywhere they were out into effect. It was the lockdowns that allowed us to return to something resembling normality.
And there is another issue: despite an almost identical health system, mortality in Scotland from all causes has for a very long time been significantly higher than in England. For a long time it was assumed that England's higher socioeconomic status was the reason, but we now know that that only explains a small part of the difference.
Worthy if study is why Canada (where I am visiting right now for work) has a cumulative COVID death rate sixty percent lower than the US. One explanation is draconian vaccination requirements that were not opposed by opposition politicians.
I’m sure the higher death rate in Scotland had absolutely nothing to do with alcoholism and heroin addiction.
Nor with that legendary Scottish staple, the deep-fried Mars bar
Lol. Great parody.
I’m not sure Charlie is parody. Then again it’s gotten a lot harder to tell
That's a load of nonsense. For one thing, many of the initial lockdowns were imposed in places where the first wave hadn't even started yet. Everyone got their big wave sooner or later. Another thing that happened fairly soon after lockdowns was nice spring and summer weather.
The lockdowns were also extremely harmful. It is horribly unethical to impose something like that without really good evidence that the benefits will outweigh the harms. That evidence still does not exist and before covid people knew that it was a bad idea.
""It was the lockdowns that allowed us to return to something resembling normality.""
The virus mutating to a lesser harmful variant did more to help than lockdowns.
And there was never any reason for 90% of people to severely curtail normal activities. Lockdowns didn't allow a return to normality. They are exactly what destroyed normality and we will be dealing with the damage caused for years to come.
Remember when the supply chain was reliable?
Lockdowns killed that dead.
"When he alleged fraud and sought help from government officials, they say, Trump was exercising rights guaranteed by the First Amendment."
Reminder that the last time the Democrats admitted that a Republican had legitimately been elected president was in 1988, when George H.W. Bush carried 40 states.
Democrats have denounced every Republican president since then as illegitimate (including George W. Bush twice) and denied their elections.
Here's the tape.
Looks like the defendants number in the hundreds.
It's different when they do it. Somehow.
I guess we should consider it to be poetic justice that Trump's alleging election fraud is now being charged criminally as political fraud.
It's poetic something.
Shorter Version of the article:
Because "the First Amendment protects political speech even when it is false and even when the speaker knows it is false, as the indictment acknowledges"
That's as far as you got, eh?
15th paragraph out of 22?
Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?
I would like sullum to write an article on the libertarians case for criminalizing disagreeing with government.
Libertarians for seizing the means of production.
Stop giving Reason ideas. I remember when we boycotted these TDS Sullum articles.
Just as Trump's legal theories were probably protected by the First Amendment and might have been decided by Congress if Pence had gone along with the alternate electors request, the prosecutor's charges will have to play out in court unless the judge throws them out in preliminary. So we're back to very bad no good horrible Federal laws and regulations that should be nullified by the Supreme Court. It should not surprise anyone that it takes an escalating culture war that has reached a near-crisis stage to bring these issues, finally, to a head. This is the result of decades of Congress, the White House and the Supreme Court playing fast and loose with the Constitution. If you write a hundred-page law with broad and vague terminology and then weaponize the laws to use them against your political opponents, don't turn around and whine about it when your victims start fighting back. I'm not particularly sympathetic to Trump and think he was a terrible President. I don't want him back in the White House under any circumstances no matter how bad of a President Biden is. But this is a matter of principle that can no longer be kicked down the block safely for future generations to deal with. The Jan Six riot was just the tip of the iceberg of political anger and social unrest in America. Resolve these constitutional issues now or suffer the consequences!
There's nothing wrong with the indictment. trump will have his day before Judge and Jury just like the rest of us.
So, we’re all under indictment?
That’s the hope of the DNC with someone saying on MSNBC that voting for Trump or defending him should be illegal.
I wouldn’t bet against them making questioning the election of a democrat a crime.
I don't know, you might be?
Libertarians for false charges, political prosecution and legal harrassment. It's okay because "You'll have your day in court!"
Say Slickrick, you guys should stop screwing around and just throw the entire US Code against Trump. Charge him with absolutely everything. Statistically you're bound to get him on one of them eventually.
Or maybe just shoot him?
Nothing says freedom like insisting all people spend millions to defend themselves against frivolous suits because, hey, they will eventually have their day in court.
Some 1/6 defendants are still awaiting their day in court, mind you.
I think that this may help clarify a lot of what speech is a crime and what speech is not at the SCOTUS level. Am I wrong for hoping it is carried that far? My fondest hope is that neither Trump or Biden are elected in 2024?
I would not classify that as a “hope” but more of a “fantasy” but since you mentioned it, NO “speech” is considered criminal unless it meets the criteria for “defamation” (slander or libel). In anticipation, no it’s not illegal to shout “fire” in a crowded theater.
It's sure as hell illegal to purposely cause a panic stampede whose natural and probable consequence is death or great bodily harm. And what causes the panic? Your yelling "fire" in the crowded theater. "Speech" of this kind is not Constitutionally protected expression, but a VERBAL ACT.
What did he say specifically to cause a stampede? Maybe you should google first amendment and yelling fire instead of repeating a long debunked talking point that shows your idiocy.
Hahahahaha, this guy doesn’t first amendment.
Fuck off, slaver.
Your hypothetical has already been shown to be false.
For a long while now.
Please cite one case where a conviction was upheld for causing a panic by saying something. Until then you're entitled to your wrong opinion.
Yeah, the army could end up running everything. Yay!
Sullum here misses what I think is the most damning part of the third indictment - that Trump pressured the DOJ to send out a memo full of lies that served only to help Trump stay in power. And no they were not lies of debatable merit. They were bona-fide false statements, such as:
"...at this time we [the DOJ] have identified significant concerns that may have impacted the outcome of the election in multiple States..."
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21087991-jeffrey-clark-draft-letter
That is a flat-out lie, the DOJ never identified "significant concerns" on the level that would have impacted the outcome of the election. But Trump wanted the DOJ to send out the memo anyway.
So Trump is free to believe whatever he wants, his batshit insane delusional beliefs should not be criminalized. It is another matter entirely however to try to use an instrument of government to propagate those lies on his behalf for the purpose of retaining power and undermining the election. That is a corrupt ACT, not merely SPEECH. We can have an argument as to whether this corrupt ACT ought to constitute a criminal offense, but it is not merely SPEECH.
Jeffy the pedo just can’t stop lying.
Trump was probably testing the DOJ, since he knew they were in on the steal.
It was the DOJ's FIB that had social media conduct the censorship of the Hunter Biden laptop, days before the election.
How could they not have been in on it?
It is highly doubtful a significant number of voters would have changed their mind if the Hunter Biden story were more publicized.
For one thing, it is not like anyone who was interested in the matter, or just well-informed in general, missed the story. It was all over the Internet and conservative news sources.
Just ignore the surveys that asked Biden voters. Mike has his finger on the pulse of America.
Yes yes of course. Trump was playing 9-dimensional chess.
“…at this time we [the DOJ] have identified significant concerns that may have impacted the outcome of the election in multiple States…”
Like the Michigan SOS breaking election laws?
Or Wisconsin. Or Pennsylvania.
I think you missed the part where the DOJ confirmed that the allegations in the letter were false. It makes no difference if you think they're true when you falsely claim that the DOJ shares your view: it's still a lie.
CoConspirator 4 sure is a piece of work:
"On January 2, 2021, just four days before Congress's certification proceeding, CoConspirator 4 tried to coerce the Acting Attorney General and Acting Deputy Attorney General to sign and send Co-Conspirator 4's draft letter, which contained false statements, to state officials. He told them that the Defendant was considering making Co-Conspirator 4 the new Acting Attorney General, but that Co-Conspirator 4 would decline the Defendant's offer if the Acting
Attorney General and Acting Deputy Attorney General would agree to send the proposed letter to the targeted states. The Justice Department officials refused."
Lols.
Of course he knew what he was asking for was wrong, it was illegal, it was un-Constitutional, he even admitted as much himself. Clearly, such disregard for his oath of office calls for impeachment and removal from office to a jail cell. Wait, we're talking about Trump? I thought we were talking about Joe Biden and his forging ahead with the CDC's eviction moratorium and the student loan forgiveness program as well as all his other rule by executive decree bullshit.
Great point!
Fuck Joe Biden!
Great point? He just agreed Trump should go to prison.
Jacob the liar spinning takes for his DNC masters yet again.
These nonsense positions need to be made in public as Trump's attorney is doing. If he were shut up, then the same things would be said on Truth twitter etc with no systematic explanation why they are legal nonsense. While his true believers will never ever change their minds since proving their FAITH is more important than life, there are millions of people who need to head why these positions are legal gibberish. I think it was a huge mistake for Jack Smith to seek a protective order.
Let Trump threaten people on social media. Shut him up in public, and he will still do it in private. The indictment seems well written, but seeking a protective order was a misstep.
Suppose the judge issues it. Trump will violate it. How will the judge enforced it? Put Trump in jail? Then, he'll win the election in a landslide.
That is their job, you know. Trump's attorneys (hope they got paid in advance, lol...) are required to say and do whatever it takes (as long as it's legal) to defend him.
What's weird about the article is that Jacob seems to be treating Trump's paid professionals as impartial sources of information about these cases. Maybe he couldn't find anyone else to advocate in favor of Trump's loopy legal theories (who wasn't already part of the Dream Team itself or an unindicted co-conspirator)?
So either he is guilty, or he is a moron..Got it.
Not a moron, deranged.
If I honestly and sincerely believe my neighbor is a witch who is cursing the entire neighborhood and I stand on the street corner loudly proclaiming my belief, that may be an exercise in free speech but if I seek out a present day group of witch hunters (say the oath keepers) and convince them it is their duty to kill the witch, even if I never so much as lift a finger against her; if they kill her, I am an accessory to murder and my speeches condemning her can be used against me.
Did jack show evidence that Trump met with the Oath Keepers? Can you provide the citation?
Ironically I can show you democrats encouraging the BLM riots and bailing violent rioters out of jail.
The problem with your analogy is that Trump didn't order anyone killed. Nor did he ask anyone to create fake ballots, falsify the numbers, or anything of the kind.
The facts in support of the allegations charged will be produced in court (actually pre-trial, to Trump's legal team), so you won't have to imagine what those facts are for very much longer.
The thing about normal federal criminal proceedings is that the feds usually don't go to trial without an absolute overabundance of evidence. True, this is not a normal federal criminal proceeding, but I still doubt the feds' habit of building very solid cases before chancing their hand at trial has been abandoned here. Expect the feds have ample facts to support every single allegation in the indictment. (This is in contrast to normal state charging practices, e.g., that guy in New York...)
We have recordings of the calls. Those that want to interpret them the worst way possible, can interpret them with nefarious intent. But if you interpret them in the best way possible, there's nothing illegal. That sounds like reasonable doubt to me.
Maybe the feds have some secret recordings they haven't released? Doubtful, especially considering the constant leaks coming out of the DOJ for everything concerning Trump, but it's possible. However, I have a strong feeling they are largely relying on what's already been released to the public.
Lauro says it, because that's what paid mouthpieces do, but I doubt he is dumb enough to believe it.
D-
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
Was it debunked by Jan 6? No. As far as I can tell, there was no serious investigation of any allegations of voter fraud by that time (very few investigations done even by today).
It was never debunked. We were told to sit down, shut up, and accept it.
He’s likely got a mortgage and kids. Speaking of which, I hope he’s getting paid as he goes by Trump.
There was probable cause at the time.
Doesn’t matter what Trump did or didn’t do. The goal is to have investigations, hearings, grand juries, trials, etc. until the 2024 election. That’s all.
I would like one of the true libertarians to defend this statement about government and Jack Smith from 2016 when the USSC rebuked Jack Smith.
“There is no doubt that this case is distasteful; it may be worse than that. But our concern is not with tawdry tales of Ferraris, Rolexes, and ball gowns. It is instead with the broader legal implications of the Government’s boundless interpretation of the federal bribery statute,” Roberts wrote. “A more limited interpretation of the term ‘official act’ leaves ample room for prosecuting corruption, while comporting with the text of the statute and the precedent of this Court.”
The same novel construction occurs here. The same boundless interpretation occurs here.
These Trump lawyers seem every bit as good as the members of Trump Election Litigation: Elite Strike Force who not only got their asses kicked comprehensively but also were forced to pay legal fees to the better lawyers (ass-kickers) and are now facing disbarment.
I guess good lawyers don't want to work for people who lie, act like jackasses, don't pay their bills, commit lots of un-American crimes, and may be headed toward multiple convictions.
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
Kirkland, what a stupid analysis. Your logic and synopsis are about equivalent of what I'd expect from an anime simp. I will however give you props with the rare ability to break out of your aspy trance and put together a different thought.
"If I steal your valuable ring because I have persuaded myself (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) that I am its true owner, I am still guilty of theft. "
Even the prosecutors don't believe that one. Trump's lawyers took the intermediate step of using the legislative process to take the ring. So you're going to have to show fraud which will require that Trump knew he had lost AND that the legal definition of fraud applied to these actions.
In the same vein, knowing that a criminal defendant is guilty/innocent is not a defense for a witness to commit perjury, or for a third party to commit bribery or juror or witness tampering.
No kiddin'.
Even if these were all proven beyond a reasonable doubt, there would still be reasonable doubt that these acts constitute a crime.
Repeating an election fraud fairy tale, despite knowing its falsity, is still protected speech.
Asking people to ignore their legal duties is a protected petition for the redress of grievances.
Acting to prevent certification of the electoral college is not illegal per se.
No, the judge would just instruct the jury what was and was not "a crime"; the jury doesn't decide that.
Remember the outrage when the FBI “suggested” Twitter take down some tweets? Were the agents or officials exercising their First Amendment rights? No one thinks so. The power of the presidency is such that his “requests” carry the potential subtext of a threat.
Oh man- you're gonna make some people in here gymnasts with the mental olympics they're going to have to do to justify one and not the other.
Two points:
-No law criminalized what the agents did, nor was there an injunction to that effect at the time
- the First Amendment, apart from protecting freedom of speech, expressly protects the freedom to petition the Government for redress of grievances. Twitter is not the Government. State election officials are the Government.
A third point:
- rapsberrydinners is dim witted.
The government does not have First Amendment "rights" as the Bill of Rights are specifically a limitation on what the GOVERNMENT can do.
https://twitter.com/jason_meister/status/1688696323170545664?t=O3Uujyc5HWabBQZhC75WPQ&s=19
The Vice President determines if there’s a dispute; the House resolves the dispute by a contingent election. That’s how it works in our constitutional republic.
The House would have immediately voted to determine the winner, with each state getting one vote. Given that a majority of states were GOP-controlled (although the Democrats controlled a greater number of representatives), Trump would have prevailed.
[Link]
That's the motive. Well spotted!
Suuuure. And when Trump boasted about having raped & assaulted so many women in his infamous "Grab'em by the Pu$$y" tape, he was just exercising Free Speech, too. The 2 courts which have already ruled that Trump did indeed rape E. Jean Carroll are violating Trump's Free Speech rights, too. It's all a Biden conspiracy and hoax: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/07/19/trump-carroll-judge-rape/
Literally no court has found Trump "raped" Carroll.
And tell me you have never heard or read a transcript of the comment without saying you did not...
“The finding that Ms. Carroll failed to prove that she was ‘raped’ within the meaning of the New York Penal Law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump ‘raped’ her as many people commonly understand the word ‘rape,’ ” Kaplan wrote.
He added: “Indeed, as the evidence at trial recounted below makes clear, the jury found that Mr. Trump in fact did exactly that.”
Literally, Trump was indeed found by a court to have raped her.
Legally, not so much.
""Literally, Trump was indeed found by a court to have raped her.""
Didn't the jury of that court pass on the rape charge?
Yes, and it wasn't a "rape charge" anyway, it was a civil trial.
"...And when Trump boasted about having raped & assaulted so many women in his infamous “Grab’em by the Pu$$y” tape, he was just exercising Free Speech, too..."
Do you have to be a lying asshole to become a TDS-addled pile of shit, or do you become one after deciding to be a TDS-addled pile of shit?
This just in- criminal and traitor alleges he is innocent using bullshit.
More at 11.
...but enough about Joe "Chinese government officials sending my family millions while I was VP does not mean anything" Biden....
I have noticed that raspberrydinners seems a bit dim-witted.
In 2017?
"If I steal your valuable ring because I have persuaded myself (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) that I am its true owner, I am still guilty of theft...' Wrong. You are guilty of possessing another person's property by mistake, which is not a crime. A cop on the beat would tell you to give the owner back his rightful property and make no arrest.
Even if you accept the premise, Trump did not steal the ring. One could argue he talked about, had a plan, but the ring was never stolen.
The analogy has Trump guilt baked in. The ring was stolen.
"Here Is Why Trump's Lawyers Say His Post-Election Conduct Was Constitutionally Protected"
It's spelled:
First Amendment
Trump's lawyers are attempting to try these cases in the pubic where there are few rules of conduct. I think it will get much tougher in the court room. The prosecution has a big challenge to prove Trump knowing lied about the election results. The defense has no less of a challenge to show their client believed what he was saying. The Trump lawyers will likely have to do this without having their client testify.
Of course, with a normal defendant, there's usually the option of a plea deal. Trump will go to trial, or his political career is over.
Trump is a normal defendant and he could accept a plea as quickly as the next person. There are many defendants that have accepted the consequences of a plea. Trump is not really all that different in this sense.
Somin's analysis ignores the huge distinction that ownership of a ring is simple and objectively identifiable, while what happened in hundreds of jurisdictions nationwide in an election with hundreds of millions of votes, is not.
Not analogous.
If it were perfect, it wouldn't be an analogy.
Analogy further falls apart when the person claiming ownership, is refused any attempt to get a hearing of facts by dozens of judges. (Think estate disbursement)
You Trump cultists are so fucking boring. On the bright side - it means any article tagged 'Trump' can be ignored.
Yeah; If you don't believe in hanging that witch you're a 'Trump cultist'... /s
There is but two dominant character strengths in left leaning people. The ability to project everything (thwart responsibility and blame) and the ability to bully and gang-build like a preschooler.
So of course those character traits side with Democrats. After all Democrats entire foundation is about [WE] mob RULES 'democracy' without any acknowledgement to a higher principle - US Constitution.
What's so funny about this song and dance is all Trump wanted was a re-vote where election laws ARE upheld instead of voided by executive fiat and election integrity re-implemented.
Funny how the *excuse* is always; yes, there was massive amounts of fraud but it wasn't enough to change the outcome. How's that ever going to be known without a re-vote with actual election law enforced????
The amount of BS indictments + the amount of media BS being pumped + the amount of open media censorship down right guarantees guilt of the Democrats. And just a big fat never-mind stamp to undefeated evidence like the IP interference logs.
The fact is; there is enough evidence there to disqualify that election and proceed with a re-vote (all Trump has ever asked for). If it wasn't fraud-ed what difference is that suppose to make?
The entire world saw live TV deletes of Trumps vote count (prob still on Youtube if it hasn't been Nazi-censored). They saw Trump have a strong lead ALL F'En day long by In-Person votes only to get stomped out in the wee hours of the night by mystery ?mail? votes over and over and over again. The suspicion was there, then the evidence was there, the counter-evidence NEVER even sprouted but instead turning into a BS prosecution of the victim good and hard for all but questioning the wildly violated election laws and wildly abnormal vote counts.
Blow your Trump 'falsely' or 'fallacy' labeling game out your *ss. If you don't have or present counter-evidence you have nothing but BS propaganda and 1st grade name-calling tactics.
Here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H4vV4OVNUk
Proof? Awe no; no proof at all... /s
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“Preventing certification of the electoral vote” is illegal if you do so by violent means or induce others to do so by violent means. Trump clearly did neither.
It is not illegal for Pence to say “I’m not counting these votes”, and neither is it illegal for Trump to persuade him to do so. In fact, neither is unconstitutional. Depending on what exactly he did, it might have been a violation of Senate rules and procedures and it might have been impeachable, but that’s it.
I don’t think it would have been very effective for Pence to refuse to count votes or to put up procedural hurdles, and I think he did the right thing. But claims by Democrats and by Pence that it would have been “illegal” or “unconstitutional” are political motivated nonsense.
In particular, Pence is trying to have his cake and eat it too: he is trying to misrepresent a political decision he made as a legal necessity, a cowardly thing to do. Pence should have said: “I could have delayed or stopped the count. But I chose not to because I think it would not have changed the eventual outcome of the election and it would have been bad for the country.”
One thing I want to say, to all those who want to hang Trump, let's have a thought experiment. What if he was right?
At the very least, there appeared to be evidence of wrongdoing. Certainly there were numerous election laws broken, and the religious fervor against Trump made it very reasonable to assume people would do anything to defeat him.
To be extreme, if Lex Luthor came up the day after the election, declaring that he conned everyone, would we be legally required to abide by a knowingly false election? Clearly not. Therefore, any reforms that would require us to put Luthor in office are clearly wrong.
If you think any of the charges against trump have anything to do with his 'conduct' you're not gonna make it
Delusional or criminal, take your pick.
In either case, certainly not fit for a second term.
When is the last time there was a president you couldn't say that about?
The voters will decide next year.
Trump didn't allege fraud. He perpetrated a fraud. BIG difference.
Care to explain how that is?
The ring hypo isn't on all fours, but a big problem with it is that Trump didn't steal anything and then claim it was his. He merely claimed ownership of the ring and sought to convince everyone that he owned it. They didn't believe him so he was never possessed of the ring. There's no theft there and thus no crime.
One person died, a number went to prison, and a lot of property was damaged because a few hundred people bought into Trump's self-delusion that there was orchestrated election fraud. They showed up at the Capitol Building to "take the Country back." Is that equivalent to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater?
Maybe! Let's apply that same standard to the politicians that encouraged the disastrous BLM riots.
Lots of mind reading going there
"Alternate electors are used in every four-year cycle," Lauro told Dana Bash on CNN. "The Senate parliamentarian acknowledged to Vice President Pence that they always receive protest alternate electors.
If this is true, it should be getting a lot more attention. But it seems very surprising. Don't the electors have to certify that they are indeed the duly qualified electors for their state? And wouldn't it be a crime to do so if they are not? Reportedly, the "fake" or "alternate" electors from Pennsylvania insisted on including a clause saying they were casting their votes on a "contingent" basis, just in case they were later declared to be the real electors. And Trump didn't want that to be told to his "alternate" electors from other states. But if alternate slates of electors are indeed common, then wouldn't such statements also need to be, to avoid criminal charges against the "alternate" electors?
I am very glad that Republicans will be happy to accept this very same behavior from President Biden in the next election
victory will be so much easier when you can make up your own truth
Seriously, Michigan/Wisconsin narrowly go for traitortrump in 2024, all you apologists will nod and smile when Biden pulls strings to overturn those votes?
People in a position of power should uphold a higher standard
I can can call the governor of Georgia and ask him anything I want.
Neither traitortrump nor Biden can
"...traitortrump..."
Fuck off and die, TDS-addled pile of shit.
"Here Is Why Trump's Lawyers Say His Post-Election Conduct Was Constitutionally Protected"
First Amendment, period.